NationStates Jolt Archive

Remind me again why we went into Iraq. First it was WMD and links to al Qaeda. When that didn't pan out, it was to remove a brutal dictator and stop the human rights abuses that had been occurring for years. So what the hell is this all about? (http://oregonlive.com/special/oregonian/iraq/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109196614530740.xml)

BAGHDAD -- The national guardsman peering through the long-range scope of his rifle was startled by what he saw unfolding in the walled compound below.


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From his post several stories above ground level, he watched as men in plainclothes beat blindfolded and bound prisoners in the enclosed grounds of the Iraqi Interior Ministry.

He immediately radioed for help. Soon after, a team of Oregon Army National Guard soldiers swept into the yard and found dozens of Iraqi detainees who said they had been beaten, starved and deprived of water for three days.

In a nearby building, the soldiers counted dozens more prisoners and what appeared to be torture devices -- metal rods, rubber hoses, electrical wires and bottles of chemicals. Many of the Iraqis, including one identified as a 14-year-old boy, had fresh welts and bruises across their back and legs.

The soldiers disarmed the Iraqi jailers, moved the prisoners into the shade, released their handcuffs and administered first aid. Lt. Col. Daniel Hendrickson of Albany, Ore., the highest ranking American at the scene, radioed for instructions.

But in a move that frustrated and infuriated the guardsmen, Hendrickson's superior officers told him to return the prisoners to their abusers and immediately withdraw. It was June 29 -- Iraq's first official day as a sovereign country since the U.S.-led invasion.

The incident, the first known case of human rights abuses in newly sovereign Iraq, is at the heart of the American dilemma here.

Yep. We sure have changed things. The story goes on and actually gets worse. By all means, read it, especially if you want to get good and mad at the senseless death of over a thousand coalition troops and thousands more uncounted Iraqi soldiers and civilians. Meanwhile, I'll leave you with these pictures to show you just how good of a job we're doing there.

Remember--the people who committed these atrocities are the people we put in charge.

http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat02.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat05.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat07.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat08.jpg

Remind me again why we went into Iraq. First it was WMD and links to al Qaeda. When that didn't pan out, it was to remove a brutal dictator and stop the human rights abuses that had been occurring for years.

Both are still good reasons. Human rights were violated big scale, much more people died during Saddams 'peace' than during the war. WMD existed and were never accounted for. And leaving Saddam alone to possible develop nuclear weapons was never a good option. Stopping Saddam from supporting palestinian and possible other terrorists was also a reason. And the long term effect of a possible peaceful democracy in Iraq should not be forgetted. And of course a stable business partner.

So there was, and still are, a bunch of good reasons for the war.

Both are still good reasons. Human rights were violated big scale, much more people died during Saddams 'peace' than during the war. WMD existed and were never accounted for. And leaving Saddam alone to possible develop nuclear weapons was never a good option. Stopping Saddam from supporting palestinian and possible other terrorists was also a reason. And the long term effect of a possible peaceful democracy in Iraq should not be forgetted. And of course a stable business partner.

So there was, and still are, a bunch of good reasons for the war.
With stable business partner you actually mean a "once sovereign nation which is now being US operated and owned, looted of its resources and economy, in the iron grip of US corporations such as Bechtel and Halliburton".

With stable business partner you actually mean a "once sovereign nation which is now being US operated and owned, looted of its resources and economy, in the iron grip of US corporations such as Bechtel and Halliburton".
Who are yout to tell me what I mean? Speak for yourself!

Both are still good reasons. Human rights were violated big scale, much more people died during Saddams 'peace' than during the war. WMD existed and were never accounted for. And leaving Saddam alone to possible develop nuclear weapons was never a good option. Stopping Saddam from supporting palestinian and possible other terrorists was also a reason. And the long term effect of a possible peaceful democracy in Iraq should not be forgetted. And of course a stable business partner.

So there was, and still are, a bunch of good reasons for the war.My point--which you so conveniently neglected to address--is that nothing has changed. Iraq is still in the hands of a thug--a thug we put in charge, no less--and there's no guarantee that Allawi won't turn out to be just as bad as Hussein. If this story is any indication, he's already well on his way.

What Buggard is saying is that it's ok that Americans allow human rights abuses because Saddam Hussein did, and Americans don't do it so much. I'm sure that the people being beaten are so glad that they're free.

My point--which you so conveniently neglected to address--is that nothing has changed. Iraq is still in the hands of a thug--a thug we put in charge, no less--and there's no guarantee that Allawi won't turn out to be just as bad as Hussein. If this story is any indication, he's already well on his way.
Nothing has changed? Do you really believe that?

Do you see no difference between what happened before the war, and after? Are you serious?

What Buggard is saying is that it's ok that Americans allow human rights abuses because Saddam Hussein did, and Americans don't do it so much. I'm sure that the people being beaten are so glad that they're free.
See my answer to Gigatron.

Nothing has changed? Do you really believe that?

Do you see no difference between what happened before the war, and after? Are you serious?
Oh--something has changed. More people are dead and al Qaeda is just as big of a threat in Afghanistan (where, by the way, Karzai is in negotiations with the Taliban to have them join his government) and around the world while our military is stuck in a place we ostensibly liberated from one abusive dictator and turned over to another abusive dictator. Things have changed--just not for the better.

That's not what I meant. What I mean is that you can't claim to be stopping human rights abuse if you do it yourself. Even if you don't do it as much as the last lot. I agree that Iraq might be better since Hussein was removed.

That's not what I meant. What I mean is that you can't claim to be stopping human rights abuse if you do it yourself. Even if you don't do it as much as the last lot. I agree that Iraq might be better since Hussein was removed.
I totally agree that some of what has happened under the US occoputation was way wrong. And I believe there's no excuse.

But, even though some people has even been beaten to death, it is still far less worse than what was going on before. Real torture is unfortunaletly very different from the abuse and mistreatment performed under the US.

And even though a lot of bad, and some unecessary and inexcusable, has happened during the war, both inside prisons and elsewhere, there's still a lot of good reasons for the war. There was even more bad going on before the war. Real torture, children being thought as soldiers, hundreds of thousands in mass graves and people suffering in general.

Nothing has changed? Do you really believe that?

Do you see no difference between what happened before the war, and after? Are you serious?

That part of history is yet to be written. We don't know yet what will happen once the Americans pull out, it could in fact become a lot worse then when Saddam was in power. We simply don't know, however by all accounts it would appear it won't be pretty.

I totally agree that some of what has happened under the US occoputation was way wrong. And I believe there's no excuse.

But, even though some people has even been beaten to death, it is still far less worse than what was going on before. Real torture is unfortunaletly very different from the abuse and mistreatment performed under the US.

And even though a lot of bad, and some unecessary and inexcusable, has happened during the war, both inside prisons and elsewhere, there's still a lot of good reasons for the war. There was even more bad going on before the war. Real torture, children being thought as soldiers, hundreds of thousands in mass graves and people suffering in general.
The US killed "only" thousands... which of course makes the war right and justified. I strongly disagree with you. The US are *no* different than Hussein or any other dictator they endorse. It does not matter how many you kill. It matters *that* you kill and that you violate *human rights* just about daily yourselves. There is no "guilty" and "guiltier". The US are GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY of numerous crimes and there is no excuse whatsoever - none, nada, nothing.

Remind me again why we went into Iraq. First it was WMD and links to al Qaeda. When that didn't pan out, it was to remove a brutal dictator and stop the human rights abuses that had been occurring for years. So what the hell is this all about? (http://oregonlive.com/special/oregonian/iraq/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109196614530740.xml)



Yep. We sure have changed things. The story goes on and actually gets worse. By all means, read it, especially if you want to get good and mad at the senseless death of over a thousand coalition troops and thousands more uncounted Iraqi soldiers and civilians. Meanwhile, I'll leave you with these pictures to show you just how good of a job we're doing there.

Remember--the people who committed these atrocities are the people we put in charge.

http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat02.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat05.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat07.jpg
http://photo.live.advance.net/olive/images/2436/ctiraqbeat08.jpg
Good Pete Townshend quote.

The most frustrating thing about this has to be that these soldiers did a good thing--they stopped the brutalization of some defenseless prisoners--and were told that they had to back off and allow the brutalization to continue. It's got to be disheartening to be a soldier there--do a good thing and be told not just that you can't keep doing it, but that you have to allow the evil to continue for political reasons.

Again I am compelled to wonder: why the fuck did we bother?

My feelings exactly. Wait till you see the next thread, Spoffin.

My feelings exactly. Wait till you see the next thread, Spoffin.
Link me when its ready

It's the one on Chalabi. I've even got pictures of Chalabi with his former buddies in the administration.

Again I am compelled to wonder: why the fuck did we bother?
Because of Bush! Those poor people!

Both are still good reasons. Human rights were violated big scale, much more people died during Saddams 'peace' than during the war. WMD existed and were never accounted for. And leaving Saddam alone to possible develop nuclear weapons was never a good option. Stopping Saddam from supporting palestinian and possible other terrorists was also a reason. And the long term effect of a possible peaceful democracy in Iraq should not be forgetted. And of course a stable business partner.

So there was, and still are, a bunch of good reasons for the war.

Name ONE.

I totally agree that some of what has happened under the US occoputation was way wrong. And I believe there's no excuse.

But, even though some people has even been beaten to death, it is still far less worse than what was going on before. Real torture is unfortunaletly very different from the abuse and mistreatment performed under the US.

And even though a lot of bad, and some unecessary and inexcusable, has happened during the war, both inside prisons and elsewhere, there's still a lot of good reasons for the war. There was even more bad going on before the war. Real torture, children being thought as soldiers, hundreds of thousands in mass graves and people suffering in general.
The people are still suffering.

They still haven't found "hundreds of thousands" in mass graves. Many of those they have found, are thought to be Kurds, who supported Iran during the Iran/Iraq War.

Real torture STILL exists. It did under Saddam, under US occupation and now under the NEW "interim government".

Speaking of children as soldiers, have you checked in on Afghanistan lately (Google Links)?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=warlords+still+rule+afghanistan&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=

What is happening in Iraq today?

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6112

Bin Laden is still at large.

Terrorism has increased since the US invasion.

Yup....everything is much better.