NationStates Jolt Archive

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...

Author Unkonown

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

America is a religion now?

I wish I could say I wanted to tear up over that outflowing of patriotic emotion, but, it only caused nausea and some minor vomiting.

woo letsm ake guilt trips and appeals to emotion for arguemtns why we cant burn the flag

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...
I'm German. I'll happily burn the Americna flag if I get my hands on one of those stinking pieces of American "culture".

I'm German. I'll happily burn the Americna flag if I get my hands on one of those stinking pieces of American "culture".
I with you.

I'm German. I'll happily burn the Americna flag if I get my hands on one of those stinking pieces of American "culture".
bite me

I would like to know why many people believe that because some Americans are bad they believe that all are. Also the First amendment is freedom of speech and protest. But think of everyone who loves it, not every American is bad. I agree some are corrupt but many are not. In the past 230 years America has saved more lives than most of the world combined. And no, they haven't killed more lives than the rest of the world.

bite me
OK

*Howls at full moon*

I would like to know why many people believe that because some Americans are bad they believe that all are. Also the First amendment is freedom of speech and protest. But think of everyone who loves it, not every American is bad. I agree some are corrupt but many are not. In the past 230 years America has saved more lives than most of the world combined. And no, they haven't killed more lives than the rest of the world.
Your right, that title belongs to Europe.

America, Europe, the East -- we're all murderers.

I would like to know why many people believe that because some Americans are bad they believe that all are. Also the First amendment is freedom of speech and protest. But think of everyone who loves it, not every American is bad. I agree some are corrupt but many are not. In the past 230 years America has saved more lives than most of the world combined. And no, they haven't killed more lives than the rest of the world.
And what does this have to do with the flag.

Your right, that title belongs to Europe.
Happens with being around for so long :)
Considering how chaotic times used to be before the "globalization", America sure can now say that it didnt have enough time to cause the ruckus Europe had the time to cause among itself. I cant prove it, but considering how many people died with the Hiroshima nuclear bomb alone (300.000+) and in the bombings of Germany during WW2 + other wars over the last 200+ years, I think the US have a lot of death to answer for. And no, senseless bombings do not count as "liberating" people.

Just ask permission.


No.

Texas V. Johnson 491 U.S. 397 (1989)

"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

Flag burning is protected by the First Ammendment whether you like it or not.

No permission needed.

We are not a nation of symbols, we are a nation of principles.

Nice post.


I disagree with it.



Oh yes, and do you think though that you should at least acknowledge that you copied and pasted it?

http://grove.ufl.edu/~omegadel/archives/flag.html

(amongst the hundreds of matching copies to be found across the internet)



Please don't try and pass off the writings of others as you own...

Please don't try and pass off the writings of others as you own...

Pwned. ^^

Yes I am sorry for that. I though am trying to emphasize that this is exactly how I feel and thatpeople should think before they act.

Yes I am sorry for that. I though am trying to emphasize that this is exactly how I feel and thatpeople should think before they act.
I've thought long and hard and I still want to burn an American flag every morning to celebrate another day closer to the end of the Divided $tates of America.

Yes I am sorry for that. I though am trying to emphasize that this is exactly how I feel and thatpeople should think before they act.

Then just preface such a post with some comment like: "Someone sent me this, and I couldn't have written out my thoughts clearer on this issue..."

Because otherwise it comes off as a dishonest representation.

Yes I am sorry for that. I though am trying to emphasize that this is exactly how I feel and thatpeople should think before they act.

Think before they act, you say? You mean, as opposed to all of those that burn things for no reason, without any thought? Give people a little more credit. If an American burns his own flag, it is probably to make a point. Even if not... it IS his flag. That American lives in a free and democratic country, and as such he has the right to express his opinion, even if it's not as well thought out as you would like. Are you suggesting that if some selection of people do not agree with his opinion, he should not be allowed to express it? One ought not to protect a colourful symbol of a nation, while setting fire to it's fundamental ideals.

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...

Author Unkonown

bullshit. the supreme court already ruled on that.
symbolic speech including flag burning is protected.
Texas vs Johnson (1989)

take your ridiculous anti democracy hate speech somewhere else.

To be fair, he did put "Author Unknown" underneath the passage. He wasn't claiming it as his own work. Well, it was "Author Unkonown", but it's close enough.

I'm an immigrant and you have my permission to burn our flag.

I love this country and I think of myself exclusively as American. I find it is a beautiful thing that this country allows its people to burn flags and criticize the government... we're one of the few places in the world that has such freedoms, and where I originally come from (China) if you burn a Chinese flag you will most likely disappear from the face of the earth. When I see someone in the US burn a flag that just strengthens my pride in our countrys freedoms and makes me feel more lucky I am living here without police state harassment, and when I see a foreigner burn a flag I just laugh at the irony that most likely the flag burner can't burn his own country's flag or say certain opinions which his country has banned.

Being American doesnt mean being obsessed to a piece of cloth... sure I have pride in my flag and seeing it reminds me of who I am but being American is much deeper than that. It means going anywhere in the world and meeting an American I would have shared cultural experiences and freedoms... In fact I feel like burning a pile of American flags right now while simultaneously waving a flag and chanting USA! USA! Which would make me look like a lunatic but you get my point... flag burning I think can be viewed as a sacred thing like incense burning - it perfectly and eloquently sums up our freedom to say whatever opinion we want and not wake up the next morning in a commie prison camp.

To be fair, he did put "Author Unknown" underneath the passage. He wasn't claiming it as his own work. Well, it was "Author Unkonown", but it's close enough.


To be accurate, he added that after I pointed out the copy 'n paste. Note the "last edited" tag-line.


But I apreciate him doing that as it was the right thing to do and so withdraw my criticism.

I wish I could say I wanted to tear up over that outflowing of patriotic emotion, but, it only caused nausea and some minor vomiting.

Agreed, the stench of nationalism is making me ill.

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...

Author Unkonown

"cue anthem"





oh well
burn it anyway
who cares for rules , the americans only break them themselves
"COUGH guantanamo bay COUGH"

i realise this will cause controversy

Give me a flag, any flag, I'll burn it, only outside though, wouldn't want it to stink up my house..;)

It's just a piece of cloth.

I understand people supporting the right to burn the flag---but how can anyone actually encourage it or say they would want to do it themselves?

Do you know how much the flag means to millions of people? If you can honestly say that you would enjoy burning the flag of any nation, you're a sick, strange person.

Although, it's pretty obvious that people are a whole lot more bold on an online forum then they actually are in real life---I doubt many of you would actually back up your words.

Ouch :sniper: :gundge: :mp5:

Old glory? Surely you mean The Yankee Swastika?

I went to a flag-burning once--it was to retire old flags and it was a beautiful occasion, full of respect and honor. I am fine with people burning a flag as a form of expression (although it's sort of a waste of money). To get permission from three people in order to express yourself is completely uncalled for, though. I do not need the permission of even one person to express myself.

The American flag is a symbol, as is the swastika and the smilie face. Any American has the right to desicrate (sp?) a flag with a swastika/smilie face on it (c'mon, I dare you to picture burning a flag with a cute smilie face on it), so why should the American flag be any different? I do wonder if cross-burning is illegal, though...

Your right, that title belongs to Europe.

Europe isn't one country, so obviously it would kill more people than America, and a lot of those lives would belong to Europeans. I mean think of the World Wars. They were pretty much only European for the first couple of years.

I Pledge Defiance To The Flag
Of The United Snakes Of Captivity
And To The Republic For Which It Stands
And Dip It In Carosin And Stick It Up The Ass
Of You Know Who...And Light It!!!

One Nation Under God...Or Else
One Nation Under Psycopathic Pentagon Gangsters
Whos Idea Of National Security is....Concentration Camps
For People Who Dare To Use The Drugs
That The C.I.A Brings In And The Government Supplies Themselves

One Nation Under Wallstreet
If The Cops And The Government are crooks..I Might As Well Be One Too
One Nation Of Sedated Tabloid Robots
Who Actually Believe What They See On T.V...Even On M.T.V
And When Asked What Do They Think, They Reply "I Dont Care!"

One Nation Drowning In Its Own Garbage
Indevisible From The Fall Of Rome
With Liberty And Justice For All Who Can Afford It

Burn Baby Burn....Burn Baby Burn!!!
Old Glory..The Yankee Swastika
Burn Baby Burn....Burn Baby Burn!!!
When Ever I see You..I see Red
If The Communst Countries Can...Why Cant we
Throw The Ba$tards Out And Try Some Real Democracy

To quote `Jello Biafra`

If I ever catch an American citizen desecrating Old Glory, I will beat him/her severely.

I understand people supporting the right to burn the flag---but how can anyone actually encourage it or say they would want to do it themselves?

Do you know how much the flag means to millions of people? If you can honestly say that you would enjoy burning the flag of any nation, you're a sick, strange person.

Although, it's pretty obvious that people are a whole lot more bold on an online forum then they actually are in real life---I doubt many of you would actually back up your words.


I would burn a flag only american

If I ever catch an American citizen desecrating Old Glory, I will beat him/her severely.

How very civil of you, can't argue with him or anything, you have to prove your point by inflicting physical hurt (man bad, must hurt man who make bad), so glad to know America breeds the pinnacle of civilization.

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...

Author Unkonown

"And thus he worked out that patriotism could be used as a tool to attack the pacifists and denounce such evil practices as 'flag burning' or 'daring to insult the president' and as a result he was pleased with himself and prayed to God for the deliverance of all homosexuals, liberals and those workers who campaign for thou to deliver all from the evil clutches of communism and be paid less in the unflawed system of our lord, (the one they call 'Nixon') known as 'reaganomics'."
Book of the Republican - Ronald 18:3

I'm German. I'll happily burn the Americna flag if I get my hands on one of those stinking pieces of American "culture".

Is that what you said when you got done w/ the Jews?

I would burn a flag only american

All your English errors are belong to us.

Is that what you said when you got done w/ the Jews?
Fuck you, don't insult Germans - they are about 1 million times as efficient as you are. Stereotyping moron.

If I ever catch an American citizen desecrating Old Glory, I will beat him/her severely.
good idea, except they have a large peace of burning cloth on their side....

I would burn a flag only american

Why? What have the American people who value it so much done to you?

Yeah you know, I had this old ratty flag that I was going to burn to give it it's proper end, but this "asking permission" seems like way too much work. I guess I'll just throw it in the trash compactor instead.

Fuck you, don't insult Germans - they are about 1 million times as efficient as you are. Stereotyping moron.

Of course, we can only insult the Americans who are so self-centered they treat their military like civilian targets, my mistake.

Fuck you, don't insult Germans - they are about 1 million times as efficient as you are. Stereotyping moron.

I'm German too, (Koenig) just not a nazi so I can stereotype my own people if I want

All your English errors are belong to us.

Eh? that made no sense!

Where are all these people who want to burn the American flag?

I think it's stupid, but sure let people do it they want to. The reason that there are so few USA flag-burnings is probably due to the civil rights granted to its citizens.

Eh? that made no sense!

catch up on your history then

I understand people supporting the right to burn the flag---but how can anyone actually encourage it or say they would want to do it themselves?

Do you know how much the flag means to millions of people? If you can honestly say that you would enjoy burning the flag of any nation, you're a sick, strange person.

Although, it's pretty obvious that people are a whole lot more bold on an online forum then they actually are in real life---I doubt many of you would actually back up your words.

Actually, in the wake of the freedom restrictions of September 11th, some friends of mine did burn a flag. I assisted and watched, but will be honest and say that I did not light or wave it, but I did fully support the action.

"Strange, sick people?" Maybe if everyone necessarily thought of things as you do, then yes, it'd be sick. However, the flag is a symbol, and everyone thinks of a symbol differently. That means that what you think it means and what you think it symbolizes it not necessarily mean what the other person thinks and by which they are motivated. We burned the flag because we felt it the only statement to convey the message, with the proper force, that "something is very wrong in this nation," and also to show our disapproval of our current administration.

Why didn't I take a turn at waving it? While I believed in the statement being made, I didn't agree with the method. Suitably strong though it was, I felt it was a medium doomed to be incorrectly understood by most people, and thusly, it does not convey the message because most won't think enough to get it. I want my personal statements to get their meaning across, and I feel they are hollow if they do not. Later that year (after war was desclared on Iraq), I built an effigy of Bush with some help from a friend, and we burned that at a publicly-advertised event, because I felt that made a better statement of what I wanted to say.

Damn, I miss that effigy. Anyway, there you have it, a statement of reason from a flag-burner. Before you go clucking your tongue at someone who uses the destruction of such a symbol to make a point about which s/he obviously feels strongly, try asking them why they do it.

catch up on your history then

Ok, ok...give me a brief description then, but as far as i could see it was gramatically incorrect

Very well written by whoever wrote it.

I can't understand why patriotism has become a bad thing in our society today. People use it as an insult. How is taking pride in your country, in what you believe in a bad thing?

While I agree that it SHOULD be legal as a form of expression, I think it's extremely disrespectful to do so. I would not deface an American Flag anymore than I would throw the constitution or declaration of independance in the mud.

If I see an American burning his own flag, I would find out why, and if he came up with something stupid like "oh it's fun" I'd kick the shit out of him. If he was doing it as a legitimate form of civil protest, while I'd be mad, I suppose I would leave him be.

I miss that effigy.

all your effigies are belong to us

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/flag-burning.jpg

http://www.islamfortoday.com/US_flag_burning_2.jpg

THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

How can you claim to be 'free' (your not as free as Europe) when you debate about people burning flags and insulting the President (or should I say King).

http://www.geocities.com/cwg429/flagburn.jpg

What an American idiot. Idiot Vietnam Vets just can't admit that they lost.

If I see an American burning his own flag, I would find out why, and if he came up with something stupid like "oh it's fun" I'd kick the shit out of him. If he was doing it as a legitimate form of civil protest, while I'd be mad, I suppose I would leave him be.

I'd have to agree, (except for the kicking part)
I think a lot of punks just do it because
they enjoy being the center of attention,
not to make any political statement but
that they're bored. If you have a legit reason,
what can I say?

I understand people supporting the right to burn the flag---but how can anyone actually encourage it or say they would want to do it themselves?

Do you know how much the flag means to millions of people? If you can honestly say that you would enjoy burning the flag of any nation, you're a sick, strange person.

Although, it's pretty obvious that people are a whole lot more bold on an online forum then they actually are in real life---I doubt many of you would actually back up your words.


my father was in the navy. he died while defending this nation. they gave me a flag at his funeral. i was 9. if i feel that my nation is doing wrong enough, i will burn that flag in a heartbeat. that flag is a tie to my father who loved his country... but he also supprted what she stands for. liberty. if liberty is withheld, i will fight with all i am to restore it. i will bleed for that flag. not to support my government, but to support my constitution and what it defends. the government is made by the constitution, not the other way round.

I am in full agree ment with the SARS Monkeys over this issue...

All of you anarchist left-wing bastards can go to hell...
NoAmerican should at any time desecrate our flag...
If I had the chance I would send you to Iraq at gunpoint and make you see what we're trying to do there...

For all of you hard-headed flag burning SOB's, not only of the US, but any nation, here's my message to you...


:sniper:

GO TO HELL!!

Although, it's pretty obvious that people are a whole lot more bold on an online forum then they actually are in real life---I doubt many of you would actually back up your words.notice to all please-dont-burn-da-flag morons....tomorrow...Ill burn da flag...just to make a point

I burn one american flag per weekend... I dunno... make me feel more human...
Ok, j/k. But seriously, these people you said, it's like asking a priest who spent all their life reading nothing but the bible to authorize someone to burn a church...
Too bad for the people who died on these wars (I REALLY mean it, I am preety sure I care WAY more about them then any american president), but they are sheeps, AND they are murderers, they were brainwashed into heartless killers. You can't get a honest opinion from a fanatic.

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/flag-burning.jpg

http://www.islamfortoday.com/US_flag_burning_2.jpg

THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

How can you claim to be 'free' (your not as free as Europe) when you debate about people burning flags and insulting the President (or should I say King).

http://www.geocities.com/cwg429/flagburn.jpg

What an American idiot. Idiot Vietnam Vets just can't admit that they lost.

obviously you are angry, and therefore biased. You can't weigh both
sides if you're just spouting hate. It becomes an argument and ceases
to be a debate when reason is lost. ie smoke out your ears.

For all of you hard-headed flag burning SOB's, not only of the US, but any nation, here's my message to you...


:sniper:

GO TO HELL!!

With King George the second in office...we very well might do

all your effigies are belong to us

What you say!!!

What you say!!!

Thats what i thought too, makes no sense whatsoever

Gain three signatures? Umm. . .No.

The right to burn the flag as you please is a symbol of free speech. If you don't like flag burning, don't watch. But of course, you do realize that with the three people you wanted signatures from, they would never sign it. That's why those three types of people are mentioned. A vet would never consent to burning a flag, neither would an immigrant, neither would a mother. Nice ploy, but it doesn't work.

Flag burning is the ultimate symbol by a person (except for leaving the country) that he or she does not like what the government is doing. It is the person's right to burn the flag should they so choose, as long as it does not hurt anyone. Americans need to get over this awe of the flag that makes it sacred. Its not, its a symbol of the government and if one disagrees with the government, a flag burning shows that.

Nationalism is pretty silly in all of its forms.

What you say!!!

lol, I'm just trying to lighten people up, I've been
in some very serious chats the last few days
and they've been stressing me out so it's good
to keep people from blowing a gasket (sp?)

Thats what i thought too, makes no sense whatsoever

somebody set up you the explanation

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/flag-burning.jpg

http://www.islamfortoday.com/US_flag_burning_2.jpg

THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

How can you claim to be 'free' (your not as free as Europe) when you debate about people burning flags and insulting the President (or should I say King).


England has a monarch, but I don't think that makes it any less free than america. And I don't think President Bush is like a King he can only stay for about 10 years, our Queens there for life, but lets face it she has far less power than Bush.

I am in full agree ment with the SARS Monkeys over this issue...

All of you anarchist left-wing bastards can go to hell...
NoAmerican should at any time desecrate our flag...
If I had the chance I would send you to Iraq at gunpoint and make you see what we're trying to do there...

For all of you hard-headed flag burning SOB's, not only of the US, but any nation, here's my message to you...


:sniper:

GO TO HELL!!

Do you all see what I mean? Do you think this guy, by no means in the minority in the US today, is going stop and think (much less stop and ask) about the reasoning behind a person burning a flag? No, they won't, and it's sad that even in our personal and political statements today, we must cater to the lowest common denominator. But, that's communication in the world today.

Thats what i thought too, makes no sense whatsoever

Heh, I know what he's saying, but I'm not sure why he's saying it here. So, I answered him appropriately. ;)

England has a monarch, but I don't think that makes it any less free than america. And I don't think President Bush is like a King he can only stay for about 10 years, our Queens there for life, but lets face it she has far less power than Bush.

I dont know whats worse...a moronic incompitant president like Bush or a senile old hag like the queen who sponges of the UK and does sod all.

Why? What have the American people who value it so much done to you?

I don't think flag burning is actually about targetting the american people, more the american ideals and capitalism.

I mean I can see why America is capitalist, but actually loving capitalism is a bit wrong, that means you feel people shouldn't be equal.

All your base are belong to us
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from All your base)

The infamous phrase is a piece of subtitled dialogue from the introduction to Zero Wing.

"All your base are belong to us" (sometimes abbreviated AYBABTU or simply AYB) is a phrase that sparked an Internet craze that occurred in 2001 and 2002. The phenonemon initally took the form of the sentence appearing on website message boards. Many images were digitally altered so that the phrase was added in, either obviously or discreetly. Eventually these were collected together onto one site and a Flash animation produced from them, which was widely downloaded.

The phrase arose from a poor translation used in the English version of the Japanese video game Zero Wing, originally produced by Toaplan in 1989. The infamous quotes were taken from the European localization of the Sega Megadrive port released in 1992. (The arcade version of Zero Wing does not include the quote, nor any other dialogue; the intro for the PC-Engine version has CD quality spoken dialogue, but has a completely different introduction. Zero Wing was never released in North America, and therefore never came to the Sega Genesis, the North American Megadrive.)

All Your Base was interesting in that it demonstrated the power of the Internet to quickly spread idiosyncratic messages that would never have been covered by the traditional mass media. Although the fad has since died down, the phrase continues to be one of the most commonly quoted examples of "Engrish".

somebody set up you the explanation

We get signal!

Main screen turn on! (http://www.stileproject.com/flash/base.html)

(Let's not hijack this thread now, folks.)

Thank you very much...it makes sense now. Never even heard of that game, i apologise for being niave.

I'm German. I'll happily burn the Americna flag if I get my hands on one of those stinking pieces of American "culture".
I'm Canadian/American and I'd love to burn a flag. Just to watch it burn <_< >_>

There's nothing wrong with burning a flag. It's a bunch of fabric that represents the symbol of a country. It isn't a symbol itself, so it's just a bunch of fabric.

I'm Canadian/American and I'd love to burn a flag. Just to watch it burn <_< >_>

There's nothing wrong with burning a flag. It's a bunch of fabric that represents the symbol of a country. It isn't a symbol itself, so it's just a bunch of fabric.
For everyone else it is. Not for Americans. For Americans its the Holy Fabric of Infallibleness and Sacredness itself. As if Gawd Himself, the Lord, had covered his ethereal body with this piece of cloth to Continually Bless The Divided $tates of America.

Its always nice to see a US flag burn in one of those Arab countries or elsewhere. Its exactly what is supposed to and what will happen to the Divided $tates of America themselves, sooner or later.

SARS Monkey -

I would not like to burn the flag, but really, your unamerican idea of needing to get sponsers to perform an act of free expression is the dumbest thing I have seen in a long time. The only person I would need to get permission from is the owner of that particular flag... plus maybe my local fire marshell.

How about this: for ANY act of free expression, you need the permission of a veteran journalist, a political refugee, and Dick Cheney?

I am in full agree ment with the SARS Monkeys over this issue...

All of you anarchist left-wing bastards can go to hell...
NoAmerican should at any time desecrate our flag...
If I had the chance I would send you to Iraq at gunpoint and make you see what we're trying to do there...

For all of you hard-headed flag burning SOB's, not only of the US, but any nation, here's my message to you...


:sniper:

GO TO HELL!!

You have this completely wrong. You have no idea about what you are talking about and are write now being disrespectful to America. I myself am liberal.


Also I am simply stating that you should think about the millions of peopole who wept and died for that flag. Everyone should have freedom for choose and if you read the last part of it you will see that it wouldn't be a law but a simple request to make everyone see what they are doing.

My father was in the navy. he died while defending this nation. they gave me a flag at his funeral. i was 9. if i feel that my nation is doing wrong enough, i will burn that flag in a heartbeat. that flag is a tie to my father who loved his country... but he also supprted what she stands for. liberty. if liberty is withheld, i will fight with all i am to restore it. i will bleed for that flag. not to support my government, but to support my constitution and what it defends. the government is made by the constitution, not the other way round.

**Stamps his feet and lights a match and gives this post a 20 minute standing ovation**

THIS, my dancing puppet idiot friends, is Patriotism.

Fuck all you "I shot some gooks so you must respect me" twits, fuck all you "a piece of cloth represents amurika" welfare trailor trash thugs, fuck all of you!

Brennique, I *am* a Veteran, and you just got some serious respect from me for that simple paragraph.

I have no problem with flag-burning for a number of reasons. First, I'm British, so it's not my flag. Second, it's only a symbol. But thirdly, and most importantly, there's a whole second side to the symbolism of flag-burning, and because of this, I've always thought that burning a flag is the most futile and absurd protest ever. Under the laws of your country, the principles on which it was founded, under the legal protection of free speech you are burning a symbol of your country. I think that the fact that people are allowed to burn flags is a perfect example of what's right in America, not what's wrong with it. In your country, your right to disrespect that country is protected by law. God bless America.

We get signal!

Main screen turn on! (http://www.stileproject.com/flash/base.html)
they should make a PS2 game about that classic Arcade

I have no problem with flag-burning for a number of reasons. First, I'm British, so it's not my flag. Second, it's only a symbol. But thirdly, and most importantly, there's a whole second side to the symbolism of flag-burning, and because of this, I've always thought that burning a flag is the most futile and absurd protest ever. Under the laws of your country, the principles on which it was founded, under the legal protection of free speech you are burning a symbol of your country. I think that the fact that people are allowed to burn flags is a perfect example of what's right in America, not what's wrong with it. In your country, your right to disrespect that country is protected by law. God bless America.

Right, get out of Britain now. I bet you are anti-EU as well. Morons....

Just ask permission.

Does the first Amendment gives us the right to desecrate the American flag?
Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement,"

I say let them do it.

But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country. That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag?

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores.
Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American ... what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.

Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you. Ask that mother to spit on her flag.

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth. They also knew failure meant more than just a disappointment. It meant a noose snugly stretched around their necks. But they needed a symbol, something to inspire the new nation. Something to represent the seriousness, the purpose and conviction that we held our new idea of individual freedom. Something worth living for. Something worth dying for. I wonder how they'd feel if someone asked them permission to toss their flag in a mud puddle?

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. Those who fought, fought for that flag. Those who died, died for that flag. And those who love America love that flag. And defend it.

So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it ...

I have a simple request. Just ask permission.

Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.

Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today.

Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.

For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ...

Author Unkonown


And to get an abortion all you need id permission from 3 Catholic priests! Lmao

The concept of Flag burning is so repulsive to most Americans not because of the cloth, or that they believe that the Flag is imbued with some divine whatever..
To Americans(it is also my understanding this is a very American trait not common to the rest of the world) The flag represents not the current government, not the prick in the whitehouse, not this law or that law, not some bad foreign policy decision. It represents the idealism that people have for America, the idealism that is still very present in places like Iran where on the street people talk about wonderful Americans are and horrible our government is.
In Hmongs who faught to come here to start a new life outside of communist Cambodia or Vietnam.Like a beautiful family named the Vangs who aided American GIs and the CIA during Vietnam to help resist the communist insergency in Cambodia with no reward other then the hope of coming here.
(If you are interested the facist homeland security and INS are trying now to deprt these true heros and if you would like to help them tag me)
It represents the idealism of the Iraqs I know personally who still fight with lebonese and other arabs in my neighborhood over the Iraq invasion because they want to believe, they have to believe that their America invaded Iraq to free their cousins, and brothers, and friends.
To Americans it is not that the Flag is a symbol of America, it is a symbol of best that America can be, the epitome of being American is being flag worthy.
We do not impart our evil and our sins upon that banner.
All the great thing s America has done are Called American and fall under that banner that not any one American lay claim to the greatness of anything that this country produces.
However any misdeed, any atrocity is layed squarely on the shoulders of the individual who disgrace the ideal of what that flag stands for, these Americans see the flag burners as haters of the American Ideal, not just hating America.
I know it is rediculous to believe anyone hates the ideal of America, they hate our realities, our presidents our policies, our businesses, and those that would burn the flag inbue those eveils upon our flag.
So what results is a miscommunication.
The ones burning the flag want Americans to see that they are not living up to their promise, the anti-flag burners see the Flag burners destroying the very thing that reminds why we try to be good, moral leaders of the world, we fail, often, but this is two groups seeking the same thing from different directions.
I do not burn the flag, my flag(purchased well9/11) has never touched the ground, I dont let it get rained on, I will fight anyone who says it is wrong to fly for any reason.
However I am not so un-American that I dont understand that sometimes from some veiw points the only way to speak out is to attack that very American symbol that is the flag.
I love my country,
that's why I say F*ck my government.

Right, get out of Britain now. I bet you are anti-EU as well. Morons....

Where would you "freedom"-loving facists have those that disagree with you move to? Maybe the proverbial "desert island somewhere"? Or, maybe camps or something... that would be cool. No wait... why don't you just relocate us all "into the air"?

You know... I was under the impression that your username was meant in jest.

How very civil of you, can't argue with him or anything, you have to prove your point by inflicting physical hurt (man bad, must hurt man who make bad), so glad to know America breeds the pinnacle of civilization.

They take it as far to insult the symbol of the United States of America, which every single soldier is fighting for and has died for, I am going to take it just as far to beat his/her ass.

Just sticking to my principles.

For everyone else it is. Not for Americans. For Americans its the Holy Fabric of Infallibleness and Sacredness itself. As if Gawd Himself, the Lord, had covered his ethereal body with this piece of cloth to Continually Bless The Divided $tates of America.

Its always nice to see a US flag burn in one of those Arab countries or elsewhere. Its exactly what is supposed to and what will happen to the Divided $tates of America themselves, sooner or later.
know what? stick it -Edited-. You can keep on saying it and saying it, but it's not going to happen.

I don't mind people burning the flag. I just hate it when they do it to symbolize the destruction of America. WTF did I personally do to you? Did I rape your women the other day? Did I personally came in and shot your child? Did I vote Dubya into office? Hell no.

They take it as far to insult the symbol of the United States of America, which every single soldier is fighting for and has died for, I am going to take it just as far to beat his/her ass.

Just sticking to my principles.

Wait, so these men, who put on a uniform, take a rifle, and willingy volunteer to kill other human beings so those people can't hurt you while you sleep at night, are honored by you beating the crap out of a protestor (who is exercising the freedoms these damn people are fighting for). I'm sure when any of our soldiers lie dying on a faraway battlefield, Okinawa, Korea, Iwo Jima, Italy, France, North Africa, Canada, and so on, I'm sure while they lie watching their lifeblood seep out from their own body, their last thoughts were not that some day someone like you would beat up a protestor who was in effect, showing off our freedoms.

Personally sir, as a military historian, I believe each and every one of these brave men and women, would spit on you if they had the chance. Those who marched off to topple Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan saw what ultra-nationalism could do to a people, how different opinion was brutally oppressed, and they did not write home saying the US should be more like this place, they took aim and pulled their trigger, bomb release, lanyard, etc., to destroy these nations, those who couldn't came home and kept the civilian population inspired and the men going, or went into a factory to produce weapons so someone else could wipe these despicable nations off the Earth, and you think these people want you to mimic the people they fought and died to get off the planet?

Wait, so these men, who put on a uniform, take a rifle, and willingy volunteer to kill other human beings so those people can't hurt you while you sleep at night, are honored by you beating the crap out of a protestor (who is exercising the freedoms these damn people are fighting for). I'm sure when any of our soldiers lie dying on a faraway battlefield, Okinawa, Korea, Iwo Jima, Italy, France, North Africa, Canada, and so on, I'm sure while they lie watching their lifeblood seep out from their own body, their last thoughts were not that some day someone like you would beat up a protestor who was in effect, showing off our freedoms.

Personally sir, as a military historian, I believe each and every one of these brave men and women, would spit on you if they had the chance. Those who marched off to topple Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan saw what ultra-nationalism could do to a people, how different opinion was brutally obsessed, and they did not write home saying the US should be more like this place, they took aim and pulled their trigger, bomb release, lanyard, etc., to destroy these nations, those who couldn't came home and kept the civilian population inspired and the men going, or went into a factory to produce weapons so someone else could wipe these despicable nations off the Earth, and you think these people want you to mimic the people they fought and died to get off the planet?
I think he meant quite the opposite.

Wait, so these men, who put on a uniform, take a rifle, and willingy volunteer to kill other human beings so those people can't hurt you while you sleep at night, are honored by you beating the crap out of a protestor (who is exercising the freedoms these damn people are fighting for). I'm sure when any of our soldiers lie dying on a faraway battlefield, Okinawa, Korea, Iwo Jima, Italy, France, North Africa, Canada, and so on, I'm sure while they lie watching their lifeblood seep out from their own body, their last thoughts were not that some day someone like you would beat up a protestor who was in effect, showing off our freedoms.

Personally sir, as a military historian, I believe each and every one of these brave men and women, would spit on you if they had the chance. Those who marched off to topple Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan saw what ultra-nationalism could do to a people, how different opinion was brutally obsessed, and they did not write home saying the US should be more like this place, they took aim and pulled their trigger, bomb release, lanyard, etc., to destroy these nations, those who couldn't came home and kept the civilian population inspired and the men going, or went into a factory to produce weapons so someone else could wipe these despicable nations off the Earth, and you think these people want you to mimic the people they fought and died to get off the planet?
I think you have a very good point, sir

Just ask permission.

uhhhh....think about it. Burning a flag is a sign of protest. To ask permission (usually the people you are protesting against) really doesn't make sense. Because that's like your having a protest against the governemt, with the governments seal of approval. Hell, this whole peice of patriotic blubber makes me wanna go burn a flag right now. "Must have permission from three sources" who the hell is gonna let someone do that?

know what? stick it -Edited-. You can keep on saying it and saying it, but it's not going to happen.

I don't mind people burning the flag. I just hate it when they do it to symbolize the destruction of America. WTF did I personally do to you? Did I rape your women the other day? Did I personally came in and shot your child? Did I vote Dubya into office? Hell no.
It is going to happen. And there is nothing you can do about it. The D$A will collapse. If not from within, some zealous terrorists or "evil" nation will drop a few nukes in the D$A. And then I will say: you had it coming.

It is going to happen. And there is nothing you can do about it. The D$A will collapse. If not from within, some zealous terrorists or "evil" nation will drop a few nukes in the D$A. And then I will say: you had it coming.
?
why?
I mean, what is it we're doing that's so evil that millions of our people who would be generally the same wherever you put them (often called innocents, but I was afraid I'd be laughed at for calling them innocent) deserve to die?

Then just preface such a post with some comment like: "Someone sent me this, and I couldn't have written out my thoughts clearer on this issue..."

Because otherwise it comes off as a dishonest representation.

Do you check every post? I still remember you checking mine and saying that i stole it from my own website :-p

I've done a few flag burnings, of course it was with boy scouts so it was all respectful. We soaked those things in kerosene and then laid them over a fire. Man, those things just lit straight up. I'm talkin 8 foot flames. It was pretty cool.

Other than that, I still have to attend a protest where Flags are just lit on fire.

?
why?
I mean, what is it we're doing that's so evil that millions of our people who would be generally the same wherever you put them (often called innocents, but I was afraid I'd be laughed at for calling them innocent) deserve to die?
Death of the US civilians is the only way the USA can be stopped from dominating the world since you are too powerless or too afraid or too blinded, to see what the US cause in the world. It is not all good and nice. Without the backing of its own people, the US government will be powerless. Would the US stick to its own borders and send support to the UN if asked to do so, things would be different. But most people in the world, me included, strongly oppose the US imperialism we see today. I am not a terrorist extremist, so I will not personally "bomb" something in the US, but there are people capable of doing so and your awakening will probably be harsh since you apparently learned *nothing* from 9/11.

Death of the US civilians is the only way the USA can be stopped from dominating the world since you are too powerless or too afraid or too blinded, to see what the US cause in the world. It is not all good and nice. Without the backing of its own people, the US government will be powerless. Would the US stick to its own borders and send support to the UN if asked to do so, things would be different. But most people in the world, me included, strongly oppose the US imperialism we see today. I am not a terrorist extremist, so I will not personally "bomb" something in the US, but there are people capable of doing so and your awakening will probably be harsh since you apparently learned *nothing* from 9/11.

And , it would seem, you have learned even less.

And , it would seem, you have learned even less.
I've learned a lot of new things about the U$ which I did not know before. Thus now I am a voluntary U$ hater.

I've learned a lot of new things about the U$ which I did not know before. Thus now I am a voluntary U$ hater.

Okay.

You want me to argue that my country hasnt done some shitty things?

I cant.


Your from Germany right?

Good idea, hating America...after all...its not like your country ever did anything to be hated for is it?

I don't hate the US, I just think it could be improved.

Okay.

You want me to argue that my country hasnt done some shitty things?

I cant.


Your from Germany right?

Good idea, hating America...after all...its not like your country ever did anything to be hated for is it?
My country did bad things in the past, yup. And it was hated for that. And it got bombed back to the stone age for it. Alas that was long ago and my country now is not "hate worthy" anymore. Germany has learned from its past and will never forget it. Alas I will never forget what the US and other allies did to Germany during WW2. The recent U$ actions which affect me and the entire world today, are my reason for hating this country.

Your from Germany right?

Good idea, hating America...after all...its not like your country ever did anything to be hated for is it?

Really, this seems to be what everyone brings up when arguing with someone from Germany over a dislike of America. That Germany died a brutal and fiery death in the rubble of Berlin, since then it has been built anew, some people could even call it a successful show of paternal colonialism (the west anyway). There are not many Germans today who support the Germany of past, and the vast majority are deeply regretful of their countries recent history.

So, let me ask you this....

Knowing that you yourself, are not responsible in any way for the Holocuast..

What makes you think that I, or people like me, are responsible fr what our President does?

Especially a President like Bush?

He wouldnt listen to the frickin U.N.....what makes you think the man listens to us either?

So, let me ask you this....

Knowing that you yourself, are not responsible in any way for the Holocuast..

What makes you think that I, or people like me, are responsible fr what our President does?

Especially a President like Bush?

He wouldnt listen to the frickin U.N.....what makes you think the man listens to us either?
Right... you live in a dictatorship... sorry i forgot that little detail.

Really, this seems to be what everyone brings up when arguing with someone from Germany over a dislike of America. That Germany died a brutal and fiery death in the rubble of Berlin, since then it has been built anew, some people could even call it a successful show of paternal colonialism (the west anyway). There are not many Germans today who support the Germany of past, and the vast majority are deeply regretful of their countries recent history.

Of course they do, and who wouldnt?

But just like them, most of us over here dont support Bush's war either.


I would think that a German citizen would understand that the government often has an agenda, and doesnt consult with its people, or ask its permission to do things.

Right... you live in a dictatorship... sorry i forgot that little detail.


You bet we do.

The man illegally stole the 2000 election.
We didnt vote him in.

Now, he may do it again in a few months.

He even passed a little thing called "The Patriot Act" wich can instantly strip away the very rights and freedoms that this country was founded on.

Of course they do, and who wouldnt?

But just like them, most of us over here dont support Bush's war either.


I would think that a German citizen would understand that the government often has an agenda, and doesnt consult with its people, or ask its permission to do things.
rofl

You bet we do.

The man illegally stole the 2000 election.
We didnt vote him in.

Now, he may do it again in a few months.

He even passed a little thing called "The Patriot Act" wich can instantly strip away the very rights and freedoms that this country was founded on.
Well at least you see what danger your country is facing. If Bush wins the next election, expect some horrible things to happen in the US.

Well at least you see what danger your country is facing. If Bush wins the next election, expect some horrible things to happen in the US.


You can expect something like that to happen anyway, no matter who gets elected.

But think about this....

Osama wanted to cripple the U.S with 9/11.

He didnt.

He gave us a shit scare, and killed a bunch of innocent people.

Life went on...

Next time...it will likely be a hand-held nuclear device, or a "dirty bomb" set off in a busy city...


What do you suppose will happen, if that occurs?

You can expect something like that to happen anyway, no matter who gets elected.

But think about this....

Osama wanted to cripple the U.S with 9/11.

He didnt.

He gave us a shit scare, and killed a bunch of innocent people.

Life went on...

Next time...it will likely be a hand-held nuclear device, or a "dirty bomb" set off in a busy city...


What do you suppose will happen, if that occurs?
Well what? Will the US bomb the entire world? Good luck lol
Other than retreating to your own land and closing your borders, there is nothing the US can do. Terrorists can bomb the US if they want to. There really is nothing you can do about it and a dirty bomb might just be what happens next time. We'll see.

Well what? Will the US bomb the entire world? Good luck lol
Other than retreating to your own land and closing your borders, there is nothing the US can do. Terrorists can bomb the US if they want to. There really is nothing you can do about it and a dirty bomb might just be what happens next time. We'll see.


This is where your wrong.

The U.S has always had a policy of stiking back much harder than it was struck.

If the U.S gets bombed by these terrorists, or whoever....expect one less country in the world.

Can we bomb everyone?
OF course not.

But..ask yourself........who could stop us if we chose to do so?

Russia?
Not Likely.
China?
Not even. Not unless America attacked them by land.

Heres what Im getting at...

If Bush gets elected, its likely that such an event may transpire.
If it does....what do you think Bush will do?

Bush will nuke the crap out of a few countries.

This is where your wrong.

The U.S has always had a policy of stiking back much harder than it was struck.

If the U.S gets bombed by these terrorists, or whoever....expect one less country in the world.

Can we bomb everyone?
OF course not.

But..ask yourself........who could stop us if we chose to do so?

Russia?
Not Likely.
China?
Not even. Not unless America attacked them by land.

Heres what Im getting at...

If Bush gets elected, its likely that such an event may transpire.
If it does....what do you think Bush will do?

Bush will nuke the crap out of a few countries.
Then expect the 3rd (or 4th?) world war which will finally end the U$ and possibly mankind. So no, i dont think Bush would nuke "a few countries". It would be the end of the U$ as the entire world revolts against it. China or Russia may not be able to stand up against the US, if they do it separately. However combined, they are strong. Combined, the entire world is much stronger than the US can ever be. US = 1 country, the world = billions of people. With the internet and fast spreading information, I think civil disobedience in the US would paralyze the government before it can commit atrocities of the scale of wiping out entire countries. Should the US dare eliminating entire sovereign nations, you can be sure to see me and others in the US and no, I will not be a friendly tourist.

Then expect the 3rd (or 4th?) world war which will finally end the U$ and possibly mankind. So no, i dont think Bush would nuke "a few countries". It would be the end of the U$ as the entire world revolts against it. China or Russia may not be able to stand up against the US, if they do it separately. However combined, they are strong. Combined, the entire world is much stronger than the US can ever be. US = 1 country, the world = billions of people. With the internet and fast spreading information, I think civil disobedience in the US would paralyze the government before it can commit atrocities of the scale of wiping out entire countries. Should the US dare eliminating entire sovereign nations, you can be sure to see me and others in the US and no, I will not be a friendly tourist.

What your missing is that anyone who could stop us, or want to, is already on our side.

China and the U.S are enormous trading partners.

Russia is barely able to look after itself.

France, Germany, the rest of Europe......all allies.

They cant stop us, becuase theyre on our side.

"Should the U.S dare to eliminate entire soveriegn nations..."

Like Iraq?
Or Afghaniastan?

Know this...
The reason that we are having so many problems militarily in Iraq, is because we are holding back, and not trying to leave it a smoking crater.
The U.S has the largest military of any nation, ever.

If that restraint was no longer needed.....do you see the size of the monster that it would become?

Dont misunderstand me, this is the very last thing in the world that I would like to see my country become, but dont think that it couldnt happen.

.....I think civil disobedience in the US would paralyze the government before it can commit atrocities of the scale of wiping out entire countries. Should the US dare eliminating entire sovereign nations, you can be sure to see me and others in the US and no, I will not be a friendly tourist.

Civil disobedience? Have you seen the state of even just this forum lately? Even in a forum where the majority seem to be liberal and anti-war, for every 5 people saying "We should be getting out of Iraq" there are at least another 2 saying "SHUT UP! WE HAVE FAMILY THERE! THE ARMY IS GREAT!"

What your missing is that anyone who could stop us, or want to, is already on our side.

China and the U.S are enormous trading partners.

Russia is barely able to look after itself.

France, Germany, the rest of Europe......all allies.

They cant stop us, becuase theyre on our side.

"Should the U.S dare to eliminate entire soveriegn nations..."

Like Iraq?
Or Afghaniastan?

Know this...
The reason that we are having so many problems militarily in Iraq, is because we are holding back, and not trying to leave it a smoking crater.
The U.S has the largest military of any nation, ever.

If that restraint was no longer needed.....do you see the size of the monster that it would become?

Dont misunderstand me, this is the very last thing in the world that I would like to see my country become, but dont think that it couldnt happen.
And due to thefact that it *could* happen, people like me will hate the U$ and terrorists with the means to do so, will kill your soldiers and civilians and navigate planes into your skyscrapers. Until the U$ have been decimated to a more reasonable size and amount of power, terrorism will exist. With the continuing threat of a US empire swallowing all other nations of the world, people will oppose the US. If you can make nations "smoking craters", terrorists can make the US a smoking crater or make the people zombies by infecting them with lethal diseases.

Know this...
The reason that we are having so many problems militarily in Iraq, is because we are holding back, and not trying to leave it a smoking crater.
The U.S has the largest military of any nation, ever.

If that restraint was no longer needed.....do you see the size of the monster that it would become?

Dont misunderstand me, this is the very last thing in the world that I would like to see my country become, but dont think that it couldnt happen.

Actually, relative to it's economic power, the US has a small military. I believe the adjective you were looking for is the most powerful or advanced military.

And due to thefact that it *could* happen, people like me will hate the U$ and terrorists with the means to do so, will kill your soldiers and civilians and navigate planes into your skyscrapers. Until the U$ have been decimated to a more reasonable size and amount of power, terrorism will exist. With the continuing threat of a US empire swallowing all other nations of the world, people will oppose the US. If you can make nations "smoking craters", terrorists can make the US a smoking crater or make the people zombies by infecting them with lethal diseases.


This is what Im trying to say.....

If the U.S were put into a position like you mention, the restraint that the military is showing now, would be gone.
Do you think that anyone is going to get near the continent without being blown to bits?

If you think that the US is a bully NOW.....(and your right, it is...) you wouldnt believe what would happen if we were backed into a corner.

It would be awakening the angry giant.
Believe it.

And due to thefact that it *could* happen, people like me will hate the U$ and terrorists with the means to do so, will kill your soldiers and civilians and navigate planes into your skyscrapers. Until the U$ have been decimated to a more reasonable size and amount of power, terrorism will exist. With the continuing threat of a US empire swallowing all other nations of the world, people will oppose the US. If you can make nations "smoking craters", terrorists can make the US a smoking crater or make the people zombies by infecting them with lethal diseases.

Strange, given the amount they hate us, why haven't they done so yet? Terrorism will always exist, modern terror can trace it's roots to the Soviet Union (yes, the very same one), the first nation, ironically, to fully feel the effects of it, though Israel might be earlier. With the collapse of the more evil of the two superpowers, who else are the terrorists going to target, except the next most powerful country in the world. With interest all over the globe, it's not hard to make up a reason to hate a world power.

If the Terrorists do force the US back behind it's borders, expect Europe to be the next target. Terror is not the result of the US's policies, what happens to the US is, but not the terrorism itself. It is a resentment of the have-nots to the haves, who feel they are being exploited by the haves, fused with modern forms of violence and destruction, and the utter inability to defeat the enemy in a conventional war. It will never end, it can only be decreased, and the fall of it's current enemy is not going to bring it to an end.

Strange, given the amount they hate us, why haven't they done so yet? Terrorism will always exist, modern terror can trace it's roots to the Soviet Union (yes, the very same one), the first nation, ironically, to fully feel the effects of it, though Israel might be earlier. With the collapse of the more evil of the two superpowers, who else are the terrorists going to target, except the next most powerful country in the world. With interest all over the globe, it's not hard to make up a reason to hate a world power.

If the Terrorists do force the US back behind it's borders, expect Europe to be the next target. Terror is not the result of the US's policies, what happens to the US is, but not the terrorism itself. It is a resentment of the have-nots to the haves, who feel they are being exploited by the haves, fused with modern forms of violence and destruction, and the utter inability to defeat the enemy in a conventional war. It will never end, it can only be decreased, and the fall of it's current enemy is not going to bring it to an end.
At least Osama Bin Laden opposes the US for what the US are and what they do in the world. He also opposes the European countries who help the US, which is understandable. Osama Bin Laden is atm the greatest threat to the US. With wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and growing anti-US movements in these countries, with US actions all over the world fuelling anti-US movements in other countries aswell, even those that are considered "allies", the US are not safe and no amount of waging war will reduce this. It is being fuelled by the show of aggression the US do since a few years. It doesnt matter what would happen should the US military "awaken". The world surely is not afraid of that. Even with its size, the US military is unable to dominate the world singlehandedly. The alliances the US currently has are unstableand more and more straining. You've already alienated France and the people of Germany. More countries follow as you abuse your "super power" and strong-arm other nations into submission. As I already said, the world is much more than the US and combined, very capable of stopping the US, should it become a threat to all other nations. Your alliances will be gone in a heartbeat if you think you can do what you want. Dont think that just because the US and other nations profit from each other by trade, that it gives you the green card to rule the world.

At least Osama Bin Laden opposes the US for what the US are and what they do in the world. He also opposes the European countries who help the US, which is understandable. Osama Bin Laden is atm the greatest threat to the US. With wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and growing anti-US movements in these countries, with US actions all over the world fuelling anti-US movements in other countries aswell, even those that are considered "allies", the US are not safe and no amount of waging war will reduce this. It is being fuelled by the show of aggression the US do since a few years. It doesnt matter what would happen should the US military "awaken". The world surely is not afraid of that. Even with its size, the US military is unable to dominate the world singlehandedly. The alliances the US currently has are unstableand more and more straining. You've already alienated France and the people of Germany. More countries follow as you abuse your "super power" and strong-arm other nations into submission. As I already said, the world is much more than the US and combined, very capable of stopping the US, should it become a threat to all other nations. Your alliances will be gone in a heartbeat if you think you can do what you want. Dont think that just because the US and other nations profit from each other by trade, that it gives you the green card to rule the world.


Your probably young, and more than a little naieve about how the world works.
Its all about money.
Germany loves our money.
China loves our money.
Everyone loves our money.

Money makes freinds.

Freinds that wont mind if you wipe out a third world nation that attacks civillians.

At least Osama Bin Laden opposes the US for what the US are and what they do in the world. He also opposes the European countries who help the US, which is understandable.

He'll oppose basically whoever is the most prominent in the region at the time, as is the pattern with terrorism. Recently it started against the British Empire, then Nazi Germany, then the Soviet Union, now the United States, it hasn't stopped with each succession, and has been going on since at least Roman times.

Osama Bin Laden is atm the greatest threat to the US. With wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and growing anti-US movements in these countries, with US actions all over the world fuelling anti-US movements in other countries aswell, even those that are considered "allies", the US are not safe and no amount of waging war will reduce this.

So, they should just leave the terrorists to someone else? I agree waging war in the conventional sense is not the way to win, or what we can consider winning, but sitting back is recipe for disaster.

It is being fuelled by the show of aggression the US do since a few years. It doesnt matter what would happen should the US military "awaken". The world surely is not afraid of that.

Have you looked at the state of the world's armed forces, they would be quite afraid of a rapid US attack on a nation, with unbridled force. The US could effectively strike and occupy a country quickly enough for the world to be too late to respond. The US would have quite a long time of free romp before the world could challenge it.

Even with its size, the US military is unable to dominate the world singlehandedly. The alliances the US currently has are unstableand more and more straining. You've already alienated France and the people of Germany. More countries follow as you abuse your "super power" and strong-arm other nations into submission.

True, the US cannot single-handedly dominate the world, but I do not prescribe to the theory that our alliances are falling apart. They are being strained, but I don't think our allies would abandon us, especially in the face of the terror threat. I'm not talking about pulling troops from Iraq or refusing to support it, as a break in alliances I would consider that refusal to help out by pooling intelligence, police forces, etc. No nation would ever consider that, sparing the US turned some country into glass (which, even with a WMD attack, I can't see happening).

As I already said, the world is much more than the US and combined, very capable of stopping the US, should it become a threat to all other nations.

After a period of time, and it would have to be a very direct threat to the world's interests. Europe has shown little want to risk it's lives for anything that does not involve them, and I can see them not wanting to risk war with the United States (which entails massive casualties), if it is over somewhere like Syria. Russia is even more concerned with it's own problems, and China poses little actual threat to the US, except in nuclear arms.

Your alliances will be gone in a heartbeat if you think you can do what you want. Dont think that just because the US and other nations profit from each other by trade, that it gives you the green card to rule the world.

True, but I don't think anyone said that

We get signal!

Main screen turn on! (http://www.stileproject.com/flash/base.html)

(Let's not hijack this thread now, folks.)
Someone set up us the bomb.


You have no chance to survive make your time!



....sorry. I had to.

He'll oppose basically whoever is the most prominent in the region at the time, as is the pattern with terrorism. Recently it started against the British Empire, then Nazi Germany, then the Soviet Union, now the United States, it hasn't stopped with each succession, and has been going on since at least Roman times.



So, they should just leave the terrorists to someone else? I agree waging war in the conventional sense is not the way to win, or what we can consider winning, but sitting back is recipe for disaster.



Have you looked at the state of the world's armed forces, they would be quite afraid of a rapid US attack on a nation, with unbridled force. The US could effectively strike and occupy a country quickly enough for the world to be too late to respond. The US would have quite a long time of free romp before the world could challenge it.



True, the US cannot single-handedly dominate the world, but I do not prescribe to the theory that our alliances are falling apart. They are being strained, but I don't think our allies would abandon us, especially in the face of the terror threat. I'm not talking about pulling troops from Iraq or refusing to support it, as a break in alliances I would consider that refusal to help out by pooling intelligence, police forces, etc. No nation would ever consider that, sparing the US turned some country into glass (which, even with a WMD attack, I can't see happening).



After a period of time, and it would have to be a very direct threat to the world's interests. Europe has shown little want to risk it's lives for anything that does not involve them, and I can see them not wanting to risk war with the United States (which entails massive casualties), if it is over somewhere like Syria. Russia is even more concerned with it's own problems, and China poses little actual threat to the US, except in nuclear arms.



True, but I don't think anyone said that
I'm tired of repeating myself. As long as you think that a strong military is all you need to "rule" then you will fail. The Roman empire failed despite its strong military, as did many many other empires before and after it. The U$ are no different. Doomed to failure due to their own arrogance and aim to control the world (PNAC). Even with the economic interdependence, a combined attack against the US would devastate your country. 9/11 showed how uncapable of "defending" you are due to your overgrown ego and sense of self-importance. Only when the people of the US have lost all their freedoms and rights, you will notice that security means nothing, if you lose your freedoms for it. And without total security, terrorism will be able to happen in the US. However you do it, there will be another terrorist attack - probably greater than 9/11. Depending on how great, the US might be able to attack back, or not. And you have no idea what capabilities China or Russia have. Just because they dont show off their power as obviously as the U$ do, doesnt mean that they are powerless.

I'm tired of repeating myself. As long as you think that a strong military is all you need to "rule" then you will fail. The Roman empire failed despite its strong military, as did many many other empires before and after it. The U$ are no different. Doomed to failure due to their own arrogance and aim to control the world (PNAC). Even with the economic interdependence, a combined attack against the US would devastate your country. 9/11 showed how uncapable of "defending" you are due to your overgrown ego and sense of self-importance. Only when the people of the US have lost all their freedoms and rights, you will notice that security means nothing, if you lose your freedoms for it. And without total security, terrorism will be able to happen in the US. However you do it, there will be another terrorist attack - probably greater than 9/11. Depending on how great, the US might be able to attack back, or not. And you have no idea what capabilities China or Russia have. Just because they dont show off their power as obviously as the U$ do, doesnt mean that they are powerless.


And your missing the point that a "combined attack" will never happen.
a. Becuase no nations want to enter a full scale military battle with the US,
b. Because these countries economies are dependant upon ours, as well.

I'm tired of repeating myself. As long as you think that a strong military is all you need to "rule" then you will fail.

No one has yet presented that point, except that the US has a large military, not that it was all it needed to rule.

The Roman empire failed despite its strong military

It's military fell apart after the 3rd Century, and was barely a rabble by the de-throning of Romulus Augustus. But you are right, a nations military can only forestall eventual collapse or reversion to a pre-Superpower status (like the UK).

as did many many other empires before and after it. The U$ are no different. Doomed to failure due to their own arrogance and aim to control the world (PNAC). Even with the economic interdependence, a combined attack against the US would devastate your country. 9/11 showed how uncapable of "defending" you are due to your overgrown ego and sense of self-importance.

You can't compare 9/11, a terrorist attack on a civilian target on an at-peace country with a conventional war against regular armies.

Only when the people of the US have lost all their freedoms and rights, you will notice that security means nothing, if you lose your freedoms for it.

I agree

And without total security, terrorism will be able to happen in the US. However you do it, there will be another terrorist attack - probably greater than 9/11.

Terror will always exist, but I do think a greater 9/11 attack can be prevented.

Depending on how great, the US might be able to attack back, or not. And you have no idea what capabilities China or Russia have. Just because they dont show off their power as obviously as the U$ do, doesnt mean that they are powerless.

I never said they are powerless, and I am well aware of both China and Russia's conventional armed forces. Russia struggles to fund it's military, which is continuing to lag behind other countries in terms of technology, it needs to be downsized, but becuase of the size of the country and numbers needed to make them feel safe, they can't.

China on the other hand, doesn't even have enough modern rifles for it's military. While I cannot say for sure the statement that they do not have enough rifles is true, what is true is that a large number of their soldiers are armed with antiquated weapons of WWII era. Their Navy is piddance compared to the US Navy (and almost every other Navy), and their Air Force lacks enough frontline fighters to challenge the US.

Wait, so these men, who put on a uniform, take a rifle, and willingy volunteer to kill other human beings so those people can't hurt you while you sleep at night, are honored by you beating the crap out of a protestor (who is exercising the freedoms these damn people are fighting for). I'm sure when any of our soldiers lie dying on a faraway battlefield, Okinawa, Korea, Iwo Jima, Italy, France, North Africa, Canada, and so on, I'm sure while they lie watching their lifeblood seep out from their own body, their last thoughts were not that some day someone like you would beat up a protestor who was in effect, showing off our freedoms.

Personally sir, as a military historian, I believe each and every one of these brave men and women, would spit on you if they had the chance. Those who marched off to topple Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan saw what ultra-nationalism could do to a people, how different opinion was brutally oppressed, and they did not write home saying the US should be more like this place, they took aim and pulled their trigger, bomb release, lanyard, etc., to destroy these nations, those who couldn't came home and kept the civilian population inspired and the men going, or went into a factory to produce weapons so someone else could wipe these despicable nations off the Earth, and you think these people want you to mimic the people they fought and died to get off the planet?

First off, let me say this. I am no war hero, I am no soldier,and I sure as hell ain't a war historian. I'll just say it outright; there are people with far greater intelligence than I in the world, who know much more than I do. I don't claim to be the best; I don't claim to be the brightest. But when you say that American Soldiers of generations past; men of bravery and honor; men who gave their lies fighting for this country, died so that some little punk could set flame to the flag of the United States of America to make a statement, that is so incomprehensible beyond any sense of logic or decency.

Men at Iwo Jima did not defend the flag so someone could piss on it as a form of expression.

Men in Indochina did not defend the flag so that someone could take a torch to it as a matter of protest.

And I am sure as hell the men fighting over in the Middle-East right now are not fighting for the American ripping his country's flag to shreds.

First off, let me say this. I am no war hero, I am no soldier,and I sure as hell ain't a war historian. I'll just say it outright; there are people with far greater intelligence than I in the world, who know much more than I do. I don't claim to be the best; I don't claim to be the brightest. But when you say that American Soldiers of generations past; men of bravery and honor; men who gave their lies fighting for this country, died so that some little punk could set flame to the flag of the United States of America to make a statement, that is so incomprehensible beyond any sense of logic or decency.

Men at Iwo Jima did not defend the flag so someone could piss on it as a form of expression.

Men in Indochina did not defend the flag so that someone could take a torch to it as a matter of protest.

And I am sure as hell the men fighting over in the Middle-East right now are not fighting for the American ripping his country's flag to shreds.


It is becuase of those men who did those very things that we as americans have the right to burn a flag in protest if we wish.

Its like the NS issue that gives you the option of denying the KKK to protest in your country.
If you say "no", your politcal freedoms go down.

"It is exactly becuase we are so civilized that we must allow them to speak, even if what they say is stupid."

men who gave their lies fighting for this country,
How appropriate.. roflmao.

First off, let me say this. I am no war hero, I am no soldier,and I sure as hell ain't a war historian. I'll just say it outright; there are people with far greater intelligence than I in the world, who know much more than I do. I don't claim to be the best; I don't claim to be the brightest. But when you say that American Soldiers of generations past; men of bravery and honor; men who gave their lies fighting for this country, died so that some little punk could set flame to the flag of the United States of America to make a statement, that is so incomprehensible beyond any sense of logic or decency.

If I felt that right was under threat, I would step up to defend that right with my life if necessary, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Men at Iwo Jima did not defend the flag so someone could piss on it as a form of expression.

Not directly, I'm sure it wasn't what was going through their minds at the time, but it is the ideal (of freedom, not pissing) and right to do that which they were defending.

Men in Indochina did not defend the flag so that someone could take a torch to it as a matter of protest.

Some of them did it when they came back.

And I am sure as hell the men fighting over in the Middle-East right now are not fighting for the American ripping his country's flag to shreds.

I was traveling with my nephew (a US Marine, recently returned), through Boston during the DNC, and watched as protestors burnt an American flag, later that day we passed several protestors, and engaged in a civil and warm conversation with them, I did not sense any hostility from my nephew, or apprehension. I have never asked him directly about it, but I will make sure to bring it up the next time I talk to him.

But going beyond that, what is the point of beating someone up over a flag. If you see someone do it, have you ever thought of possibly arguing them over what they are doing, or try to prove them wrong. If you inflict physical harm, your just hardening their cause, people look at you as a barbarian who cannot support his case with civilized debate, so you are reduced to "smash smash, bang", and often the stereotype of ignorance is attached to this. While the protestor who is assaulted will feel even more strongly for his cause, becuase he is obviously upset with the US Government, and now that he has just been beaten up in public without that government doing anything, I would imagine he would feel he was right in the first place. Your not gaining anything for your side, and helping paint you as an ignorant baboon.

Men at Iwo Jima did not defend the flag so someone could piss on it as a form of expression.
LOL Thats a good idea. That way it will last longer as when you burn it. :D

I wonder what the founding fathers thought of the American flag as they drafted the Declaration of Independence? They knew this act would drag young America into war with England, the greatest power on earth.

Britain wasnt the most powerful country on earth at the time. they were on a pretty equal footing with the french and the spanish. this was an important factor in why us brits didnt give into original american demands (which were very far from independance) of topic I know but I like people to get there facts straight.
Now I'll let you Yanks get back to your freedom of speech debates.

every one should just watch the futurama episode where zoidberg eats the earthican flag.

Men at Iwo Jima did not defend the flag so someone could piss on it as a form of expression.

Men in Indochina did not defend the flag so that someone could take a torch to it as a matter of protest.

And I am sure as hell the men fighting over in the Middle-East right now are not fighting for the American ripping his country's flag to shreds.

I am a decorated veteran and fought for my country.

I did not, in any way shape or form, defend the flag.

The men of whom you speak did not defend the flag.

I, and they, took an oath to defend the Constitution and its ideals, not a stripey piece of cloth.

Flag != Country

We are not a nation of symbols, we are a nation of principles.

You have my permission to burn the flag.

Have your freedom of speech, you may as well burn (or eat) what ever flag you shold wish, ancd theres no piont in stooping someone doing it, its such an insignificant jesture. freedom of speech is irrelevant because an individuals speech means nothing and usually achieves nothing.

First, you need permission of a war veteran.
You mean permission from one of the people who were mutilated and scarred for life, who lost the best years of their life and many of their best friends fighting an imperialist war for the greedy fat corrupt pigs in Washington?

Sure. That'll be easy.

Next, you need a signature from an immigrant.
You mean one of those people you treat like sub-human filth and pay them minimum wage to clean your toilets?

Yeah, that should be pretty easy too.

Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery.
And often under the brutal tyranny of a US-sponsored dictator.

But they shouldn't worry; there's plenty of poverty and misery in the USA too.

Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own.
Read 1984 and pay attention to Winston's feelings of love towards O'Brian, the man who was the cause of his pain in the first place.

You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman.
Funny, I was under the impression that they gave their lives for their fellow man, not for some abstract generalization like "America".

Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision...
...and death squads, torture (Abu Ghraib, anyone?), tyranny, exploitation, imperialism...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation.
The flag does not represent the American people. It represents the American government. Many Americans are my friends. I respect and support the American people. But I despise the corrupt and filthy institutions that make up American capitalism.

well, i think you should be able to burn the flag. this was probably already stated somewhere through the thread, but most war veterans would never give their approval to burn the flag. then they would ramble on with all the problems the youth of america have.



if i had a child, id name him isoscles, isoscles kramer.

I find this thread highly amusing...all your words of defiance against terrorists... who`s the biggest terrorists of the lot? Afghanistan?..nope, Iraq?...Nope The U.S?...Bingo

The U.S is one of the biggest fund raisers of the I.R.A (Irish Republican Army) now you have have had a little taste of what its like for ppl who live under the threat of terrorism sometimes on a daily basis like...Isreal, Kosovo, Belfast etc...you`ve been damn lucky

The U.S is one of the biggest fund raisers of the I.R.A (Irish Republican Army) now you have have had a little taste of what its like for ppl who live under the threat of terrorism sometimes on a daily basis like...Isreal, Kosovo, Belfast etc...you`ve been damn lucky
The usual argument is: IT WASN'T AN OFFICIAL FUNDRAISER!!! IT WERE PRIVATE PERSONS THAT RAISED THE MONEY!!!!! THEREFOR, NO HARM DONE!!! (or something along these lines)
Hmm, I wonder what would happen if some private person would try to raise funds, privatly, for Al Quaida.

Gigatron is even more naive than I thought...

Actually, that IRA point got me thinking.

I live in London, where we used to be (not so much any more) bombed pretty much constantly by the IRA. You realise that there are no bins at London stations so that nobody can put a bomb in one? There are posters all over the place about what to do if you see any piece of unattended luggage. My family have had several near misses where a bomb has gone off hours after they were there, or they have missed an appointment where a bomb would have gone off. So America's claims not to be combating terrorism are pretty much bullshit.

Anyway, flag burning is, in my opinion, perfectly reasonable. If someone wants to make a statement, then they can. Maybe that's because in England, the cross of St George has been hijacked by the BNP. Seems to me that if you live somewhere where people have a go at you for disagreeing with the president "in the name of freedom", then you're not really free. Also, I am against the war in Iraq, but I strongly suppourt the troops out there. I don't think there's anyone who would 'hate' someone out on the front line following orders.