NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you think will eventually happen over the next 5, 10, 20 years over gay marriage, and why? I follow the news a lot less carefully than I should, so I probably have missed a lot, and I also have only an 8th grade education in history, but I think that given the number of local uprisings against the status quo, gay marriage will be a societal norm within 20 years. So far, as far as I know, the states of Massachusetts and Washington and the local governments of San Francisco and Multnomah County have taken that turn. Even though San Francisco and Multnomah County have stopped issuing those licenses, the fact that they did to begin with has made an impression. I remember my school's first GLBT potluck after Multnomah County started issuing licenses, and how one gay dad jokingly griped about the wedding ring chafing his hand, and then we cut a celebratory cake for the whole potluck group. Even though we stopped, it made a difference, and I imagine it has the same effect in San Francisco. Washington and Massachusetts make an even bigger impact, as entire states. I think at this rate, at least half of the Union will have legalized gay marriage in 5 years, and in 10 virtually the entire nation will have that legal standing, though it may still be a large point of debate. As I said, in 20 I expect it to be social norm.

I will reiterate the title in saying that I don't want to have a debate over the moral standing of gay marriage or homosexuality. I don't mind if you cite it as a reason for a certain viewpoint, but I'd prefer people not debate it in this thread because there are plenty of other threads for that and they tend to get incredibly inane.

I don't think it will happen quite so quickly, and I don't think it will be a "societal norm". I rather think it will simply become more acceptable. Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

Okie ... after several minutes of powerful, side-splitting guffaws over this possibly not becoming a moral debate, I actually have an answer:

What will happen with Homosexual Marriage is the same thing that has always happened when a particular group fights for equality under US law - a lot of time, a lot of anger, and a lot of fighting, but the US eventually relents.

For Blacks in the US, it took nearly 100 years for the Civil Rights Act to come into play and, even then, National Guardsmen had to be used to enforce it in some areas.

For Native Americans ... well ... don't get me started on what the US has done to them. However, as of 1994, thanks to Bill Clinton, Native Americans finally have the right to openly practice their varied religions (all NA religions were outlawed in the 1870s - even on reservations).

For Gays, the same will happen. Protests, marches, fighting, struggling, and one day redemption. With our impatient fast-food culture, I'd say about another 10 years and you'll see enforcement of a Gay Rights Act, then about another 10 years for people to be more comfortable with it.

But, then again, there are still hold outs who believe all Blacks should go back to Africa. Laws don't change attitudes, but hey ... the US is very good at ignoring bigotted idiots.

Okie ... after several minutes of powerful, side-splitting guffaws over this possibly not becoming a moral debate, I actually have an answer:

What will happen with Homosexual Marriage is the same thing that has always happened when a particular group fights for equality under US law - a lot of time, a lot of anger, and a lot of fighting, but the US eventually relents.

For Blacks in the US, it took nearly 100 years for the Civil Rights Act to come into play and, even then, National Guardsmen had to be used to enforce it in some areas.

For Native Americans ... well ... don't get me started on what the US has done to them. However, as of 1994, thanks to Bill Clinton, Native Americans finally have the right to openly practice their varied religions (all NA religions were outlawed in the 1870s - even on reservations).

For Gays, the same will happen. Protests, marches, fighting, struggling, and one day redemption. With our impatient fast-food culture, I'd say about another 10 years and you'll see enforcement of a Gay Rights Act, then about another 10 years for people to be more comfortable with it.

But, then again, there are still hold outs who believe all Blacks should go back to Africa. Laws don't change attitudes, but hey ... the US is very good at ignoring bigotted idiots.

I'd have to agree with Keruvy here

Wow I did not know that about Native American religions being banned and Clinton reinstating their right to practice them. It's absolutely amazing to me that in a country that is supposedly founded on freedom of religion, that the Native American religion was still criminalized. wahhhhhhhh?

Since you are asking only for my opinion about what will happen, not whether I support it, I think eventually gay marraige will become a reality. However, I think many states will put into legislation a sort of half way thing, in which the rights of marraige, but not the actual act, are conferred upon gay couples. However, it's a mistake to think it'll be easy. I live in Multnomah County, and opposition and indignation over the actions of the County are (is?) high.

When you look at the polls conducted on this subject, you see a definite trend. The younger the respondents, the more they support same-sex marriage. If I recall correctly, the 18-25 age group was about 65% in favor of full marriage for same-sex couples while the oldest group 65+ was about 70% opposed to any legal status. So time is on the side of same-sex marriage. I'm guessing that DOMA will be overturned in the next 10 years or so depending on who wins the next Presidential election or two, and that there will be a brief backlash as the anti-gay forces try to get the FMA passed again. It will fail and people will wake up one day and discover that having gay people married hasn't destroyed their marriages in the slightest.

What I think will happen... I think it'll have the same path that Women's Voting Rights, Racial Rights, etc had. It will be eventually accepted by the government, and over time people will be comfortable with it.
I sure hope that by the time I have grandkids, the idea of outlawing gay marriage sounds as barbaric to them as not allowing women to vote sounds to me...

Gay marriage is such a sore issue for many because marriage in general exists in two separate realms. It's a religious institution, and it's a legal contract. I think the obvious solution is for government to stop recognizing marriages completely, and simply offer "domestic partnership agreements" to any interested couples, gay or straight. Then if gays want a religious marriage, they need only find a religion that will perform the ceremony.
P.S. I saw a funny T-shirt that said "I believe in gay marriage, but only if both chicks are hot."

Oddly enough, in New Mexico it's really already a social norm to see two men together. In other places I know people aren't as tolerent, so I'm inclined to believe it may take 15-25 more years before the entire US gets over gays. I'm giving it such a long span of time because most people are okay with homosexual men, but I've noticed that men in particular get irritated at the thought of beautiful women beig seduced by another beautiful woman. So lesbianism is the thing that'll cause gay marriages to drag a little, I think. People just have a harder time accepting it.

Wow I did not know that about Native American religions being banned and Clinton reinstating their right to practice them. It's absolutely amazing to me that in a country that is supposedly founded on freedom of religion, that the Native American religion was still criminalized. wahhhhhhhh?


And this surprises you? The Neocons/religious reich types don't understand that freedom of religion means freedom FROM as well. But they think that it only means the particular branch of christianity that they practice. What a lot of them want is a damned theocracy - with them on top.

...I've noticed that men in particular get irritated at the thought of beautiful women beig seduced by another beautiful woman. So lesbianism is the thing that'll cause gay marriages to drag a little, I think. People just have a harder time accepting it.

Really? I think that's funny, because most of the arguments I hear against gay marriage are founded on the assumption of male homosexuality, and lesbianism rarely comes up. Also, as a previous poster said, I've seen the T-shirt saying gay marriage only if "both chicks are hot."

And as long as we're on the topic, straight girls are almost always hotter anyway. Those porn-mag girls with the long hair and nails are straight girls getting paid. Real lesbian couples aren't that attractive from a guy's point of view. I know it's weird to hear a girl say that, but I have a lot of guy friends, and it's also kind of a common sense cultural thing too.

As far as Multnomah County, I live here too, but I'm probably considerably cushioned from the resistance, since as I said I don't follow the news well, and most of the people I know are pretty politically liberal.

Who cares what gender the couple are? Surely the only thing that matters is they love eachother. Take a tip from children, they aren't homophobic or racist or prejudiced! Gay marriage is only right and it it cannot be banned. It should be accepting that homosexual people should have the same rights as heterosexuals

I would like to point out something I havn't seen considered yet.So far everyone thinks that gay marraige will be accepted after a while like civil rights and women rights.

What I have not seen is someone saying that a strong group will not accept gay marraige.There is a difference between the civil/women rights fights and gay "rights" fight.It was never against the christian religion to be a woman or black.However,homosexuallity generally,is pretty much listed as a sin (not in the ten commandments,but in other places)

If gay marraige is legal in the future,I think that you will generally see it only in city halls or outside,never in a church that practices true christianity.

Marraige in church is in the sight of God,and God does not looks upon homosexuallity as immoral,and if the pastor/preist is a good one,he will not marry that couple.

Then again, there are a lot of other parts of the Bible that have been abandoned because they no longer apply to society. It may work out the same way for the "sinfulness" of homosexuality. I don't know, but you're right - that does affect the issue.

I would like to point out something I havn't seen considered yet.So far everyone thinks that gay marraige will be accepted after a while like civil rights and women rights.

What I have not seen is someone saying that a strong group will not accept gay marraige.There is a difference between the civil/women rights fights and gay "rights" fight.It was never against the christian religion to be a woman or black.However,homosexuallity generally,is pretty much listed as a sin (not in the ten commandments,but in other places)

If gay marraige is legal in the future,I think that you will generally see it only in city halls or outside,never in a church that practices true christianity.

Marraige in church is in the sight of God,and God does not looks upon homosexuallity as immoral,and if the pastor/preist is a good one,he will not marry that couple.

actually, traditional values very much opposed RIGHTS for women and blacks. no, the Bible isn't against being born female or black, so long as you are willing to be a slave (as the Bible repeatedly endorses) or you are willing to be the property of your husband. traditional Christian values directly opposed both the women's movement and the black civil rights movement, and now nobody gives a damn...the same will be true of gay rights, within the next 20 years or so. my generation's children will look back and wonder how we were ever so backward as to think gay people didn't deserve equal rights; they will see homophobia the way today's kids see Jim Crow laws and refusing women the vote. and they will be right on the money.

Really? I think that's funny, because most of the arguments I hear against gay marriage are founded on the assumption of male homosexuality, and lesbianism rarely comes up. Also, as a previous poster said, I've seen the T-shirt saying gay marriage only if "both chicks are hot."

And as long as we're on the topic, straight girls are almost always hotter anyway. Those porn-mag girls with the long hair and nails are straight girls getting paid. Real lesbian couples aren't that attractive from a guy's point of view. I know it's weird to hear a girl say that, but I have a lot of guy friends, and it's also kind of a common sense cultural thing too.

As far as Multnomah County, I live here too, but I'm probably considerably cushioned from the resistance, since as I said I don't follow the news well, and most of the people I know are pretty politically liberal.

I hope y'all are right about this.
I could not resist a comment concerning lesbians, though...
They say, in the straight world...that nothing says "NO" like a pair of flannel pajamas and sponge rollers. To a lesbian, nothing says "YES" like a pair of flannel pajamas!!
Seriously, from my own observation of my gay and lesbian frinds (being transgender myself, most of my friends are gay and lesbian,) lesbians seem to come in two types. I have dubbed these two types, and I hope no lesbians are offended at this...but the two types are "Lipstick Lesbians" and "Diesel Dykes." The "Diesel Dykes" seem far more common than your "Lipstick Lesbians." And it is exceedingly rare to see two "Lipstick Lesbians" together...far more common is the couple that are both "Diesel Dykes."
In fact, "Lipstick Lesbians" are, in my experience, exceedingly rare...seldom will you see a lesbian who uses makeup much, if at all...seldom will you see a lesbian carrying a purse...even rarer still is a lesbian who wears a skirt...and almost unheard of is a lesbian who wears pantyhose.
My own observations...so don't go nuts on me here, lesbians...no offense is intended here, and I make no value judgement on this. Just stating my own observations.
Similarly, with transsexuals like myself...you seldom see us with a lot of makeup, more commonly we tend to dress in jeans and t-shirts...though we usually DO carry purses, and make SOME attempt to appear feminine, with hairstyles and minimal makeup. It isn't uncommon to see a transsexual in a skirt or wearing pantyhose...but this is FAR MORE COMMON with male crossdressers than with transsexuals.

More often than not, my own preferred style is minimal makeup, black or other solid-color slacks, and a nice top. My hair is permed...and I do have acrylic nails, kept shorter than normal, because my job requires a lot of typing, so no 3-inch claws for me. Though there are days when I feel more like getting a little dressed up. This is not as common with most lesbians, though. In fact, a lot of lesbians almsot appear "butch" even to the point where some of the younger ones could be almost mistaken as younger boys...short, no facial hair...but looking more boyish.

At any rate...I hope the opinion being advanced thus far here is a reality, and that, one day, my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters...will be able to experience all the joy of existence that my heterosexual friends take for granted. I'm quite frankly more concerned with the myriad of laws pertaining to gender...because in some states, we transsexuals are granted, and treated in the eyes of the law, the same as our new gender...and in other states, they continue to insist on viewing us as our original birth gender...while others prefer to view us, depending on the situation, as one, the other...or neither...whichever will be the most disadvatageous to us...they want to view us as men for the purposes of marriage, that we cannot marry a man...they want to view us as women in the workplace, so they can pay us less...and when it comes to sexual harrassment in the workplace, they want to view us as neither...since sexual harrassment can be, according to law, both men and women can be victims of it...but, for some reason, in most places, transsexuals are NOT protected against sexual harrassment, being viewed as neither men, nor women.
I'd like to see some advances in the general treatment by society in general, towards a greater acceptance and understanding of transgendered people, and our unique needs and concerns.

If gay marraige is legal in the future,I think that you will generally see it only in city halls or outside,never in a church that practices true christianity.


Nah ... there are many churches - including Christian churches - that are tolerant of gay marriage. Or do the Methodists not practice "true" Christianity?

However, there is no law that forces churches to marry anybody at all - regardless of race, gender, or anything. So, I doubt very highly that allowing gay marriage will force churches to allow such marriages.

Fortunately, for every church that will turn away gay couples, there are three that will welcome them.

Fortunately, for every church that will turn away gay couples, there are three that will welcome them.
Aren't Catholics and Baptists, two generally anti-gay marriage churches, the two largest in the USA? I think the majority of churches - whether they're Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, or whatever - would still be against gay marriage.

I think you hit on the 'answer' to your own observation, there, Labrador.

'Lipstick lesbians' are simply not as often identified as 'lesbians' as frequently as those who are more stereotypical or, say, 'queer-identified.'

Mind you, a lot of makeup and femme stuff is kind of designed to draw *men's* attention, so there's not always an incentive there.

It's kind of like people's image of a transsexual is often someone dressed like a hooker or showgirl, so they see transvestites and drag queens and presume they never saw anyone outside the stereotype because they were only *looking* for the stereotype in the first place.

Kind of like people think they don't know any gay guys cause none of the gay guys they know are queeny or anything like that.

Aren't Catholics and Baptists, two generally anti-gay marriage churches, the two largest in the USA? I think the majority of churches - whether they're Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, or whatever - would still be against gay marriage.

Catholics have ceremonies for uniting two men that date back to the 10th century. I posted about that on another thread and see no reason to repeat it.

Nobody but Baptists listen to Baptists and there aren't as many of them as Baptists like to think.

Yeah, it is very probably that among Christian churches, the majority will not perform same-sex marriages ... but, like I said, for every church that turns away same-sex marriages, there are three that will welcome them.

Christianity is stagnant ... 0% growth. I don't think we'll have to worry about them much longer. Fastest growing religion in the US? Paganism ... and Pagan covens almost invariably perform gay marriages.

I know I do.

Catholics have ceremonies for uniting two men that date back to the 10th century. I posted about that on another thread and see no reason to repeat it.

Nobody but Baptists listen to Baptists and there aren't as many of them as Baptists like to think.

Yeah, it is very probably that among Christian churches, the majority will not perform same-sex marriages ... but, like I said, for every church that turns away same-sex marriages, there are three that will welcome them.

Christianity is stagnant ... 0% growth. I don't think we'll have to worry about them much longer. Fastest growing religion in the US? Paganism ... and Pagan covens almost invariably perform gay marriages.

I know I do.

happily, the fastest growing "religious orientation" in America is agnosticism/secularism, and legal precident is all we worry about :).

Catholics have ceremonies for uniting two men that date back to the 10th century. I posted about that on another thread and see no reason to repeat it.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/religion/cst-nws-gay01.html

VATICAN CITY--The Vatican urged Catholics and non-Catholics on Thursday to unite in campaigning against gay marriages and gay adoptions.

Catholic politicians have a ''moral duty'' to oppose laws granting legal rights to gay couples, and non-Catholics should follow their lead since the issue concerns ''natural moral law,'' said the Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Much more up-to-date than something from the 900s.

Usually 'up to date' isn't exactly where the Church pretends to gain its moral authority.

Anyway. Forgot to mention my thoughts on the actual topic here.

Now that gay marriage is a reality, what is going to happen is that the image of gay people is going to shift away from things like counterculture and the singles scenes and all that. People will start seeing the rather ordinary gay couples living in their towns with no fuss or muss and start to realize all the panic was over nothing.

Eventually, the generation of folks born after the Civil Rights movement and Stonewall will be the ones in power, and, though the churches will hem and haw and complain like they did about things like cohabitation and interfaith and interracial marriages and uppity women voting or wanting a part in church life, ...fewer and fewer people will care.


Probably, a lot of gay people, let out of the 'queer ghetto' will become, well, ordinary. And gay people that live pretty humdrum lives and don't make a lot of noise won't be afraid to call someone 'husband' or 'wife,' (which I think people should do regardless of the laws) and people won't immediately think about them having some kind of sex they *sooo* enjoy disapproving of,

They'll think of their neighbors.

Like, you know. The folks up the block.

I think that's what the religious right is *most* afraid of, really.

The ordinary, un-interesting, non-tittilating

...truth.

Acknowledging we can get married and form couples and families that are just as loving and stable as anyone else costs them a whole class of 'sinners' to bash at.

Seeing it happen, heh. :)

Priceless.

I think that gay marriages will be allowed permanetly in atleast one or two states in the next few years. No matter what people say im sure that Kerry will be voted president seeing how bush bashing has become such a fad. MTV and seemingly everything else the punk scene. I think that gays should deffinetly be allowed to get married why shouldnt they?? The only reasons are because of leaders biblical beliefs but letting church views and state is completely un american. America was built inorder to make a seperation from the church of england. Freedom ammendments are created faster than in the past. It wont take as long as the blacks or anything else. If one state lets gays marry then all states dont have to legalize it but they have to accept the marriage. If california legalized it two people in oregon could marry in cali over the weekend and go back and oregon would have to accept it. Im sure atleast one state is going to legalize it right when kerry takes over and the other states will fall soon after.

I think it will take a few decades perhaps to get it all across america. In England where I am we will have CUs with all the rights of marriage but with a different name by the end of the year, hurrah! But I doubt polygamy and incest and all that will be legalised too soon after gay marriage. The slippery slope is rubbish, the legal system is a set of doors with different keys which are comppletely unrelated not a mud slide downhill...I do not think any judge is going to think of gay marriage while judging the age of consent laws at all.

A lesbian wearing pantyhose? As if! Not to perpetuate stereotype, it's just that almost NOBODY I know under age 50 wears pantyhose, and the 50+ ones are super prim-and-proper femmey types. Personally, I think pantyhose is creepy.

Speaking of stereotypes... somehow I tend to run into a lot of gay guys, and I know people on both sides - guys you wouldn't know were gay at all, and the preppy queeny shopping freaks about whom it's your first thought.

I think the West Coast and New England will be the first to settle into gay marriage without all the panic and debate.

well, i live in canada and apparantly when parliment goes back to work in the fall, they're going to make a vote on changing the definition of marriage. and when you consider that the only party that outright opposes it are the conservatives, there's an excellent chance that gay marriage will be nationally legal over here.

Polygamy and incest will never be legalized, those are things with so little people commiting them that they will never be accepted. On the other hand who doesnt know a gay man?? But who knows someone that has more than one wife or boinks his sister. And people from Utah dont count. Gays are everywhere, also its something that they cannot help, where as you can help not doin your sister or having more than one wife.

I thought that it was legal in canada. Or atleast parts. Also dont you guys have very lax marajuana laws??

happily, the fastest growing "religious orientation" in America is agnosticism/secularism, and legal precident is all we worry about :).

well, don't forget human rights...

I thought that it was legal in canada. Or atleast parts. Also dont you guys have very lax marajuana laws??

actually, our marijuana laws are technically tougher than the ones in the states. you guys just have asshole politicians who like to pin your so called pot problem on canada and mexico.

and it is legal in parts: quebec, ontario, bc and i think the yukon. though when talk of federal legislation came up, the only province to raise an objection was alberta (the canadian version of texas) so it's possible that even without a federal vote on the subject, it would become commonplace most everywhere anyways.

that would explain why I ahve that view point I lived very close to bc in washington. oooo I do like the nineteen year old drinking age, however I have one more year to go. however however I also just moved to las vegas. however however however i live with my aunt and uncle who would buy me alcohal.

I think that gay marriages will be allowed permanetly in atleast one or two states in the next few years. No matter what people say im sure that Kerry will be voted president seeing how bush bashing has become such a fad. MTV and seemingly everything else the punk scene. I think that gays should deffinetly be allowed to get married why shouldnt they?? The only reasons are because of leaders biblical beliefs but letting church views and state is completely un american. America was built inorder to make a seperation from the church of england. Freedom ammendments are created faster than in the past. It wont take as long as the blacks or anything else. If one state lets gays marry then all states dont have to legalize it but they have to accept the marriage. If california legalized it two people in oregon could marry in cali over the weekend and go back and oregon would have to accept it. Im sure atleast one state is going to legalize it right when kerry takes over and the other states will fall soon after.
No. Oregon DOESN'T. that is what the uncontitutional DOMA laws are all about.
Currently, Oregon DOESN'T have to recognize the marriage...until the constitutionality of DOMA is questioned...and right-thinking heads remember the full faith and credit guarantees of the Fourteenth Amendment...and realize that DOMA flies in the face of the fourteenth amendment.
why ELSE do you think the Religious Right is so hot to pass a Federal Marriage Amendment?
Because they KNOW that DOMA is unconstitutional, and it is only a matter of time before that hateful legislation is struck down.
they know DOMA is only a Band-Aid. and it could be ripped off at any moment. they are hoping against hope the Band-Aid will stay stuck on long enough for them to pass an Amendment.

The how come when I lived in Washington and Massachusettes was thinking of passing gay marriage laws, it was a major topic that other states would have to accept the marriage. Doesnt mean Oregon or any state has to allow gay marriages but when someone in america is married it is accepted in all other states. Just like a drivers license. I believe you missunderstood my comment or that law in some way.

Well, it'll probably be legalized in other countries first before America.

No. Oregon DOESN'T. that is what the uncontitutional DOMA laws are all about.

True, that is what the DOMA is about, but Oregon is actually an interesting case because Multnomah County did issue same-sex marriage licenses for a short time. We're no longer giving out the licenses but the marriages that were already performed must be recognized. I'm not clear on whether that's just the county or the whole state. If the whole state has to recognize them, then shouldn't marriages performed in other states also be recognized, blah blah blah and that's where it gets confusing.

Anyway...

I think that shortly after gay marriage is banned nationwide, a gay mafia will pop up. They’ll go to straight singles bars kill all the patrons, either that or offer them “protection.” People will start being gay out of rebellion or out of fear of the gay mafia. There will be at least three cable TV and satellite channels dedicated to the homosexual lifestyle. Well, that might happen anyways without the gay marriage ban. But the Gay mafia will run them if it’s banned all over.

sometimes it seems like bisexual people are just trying to rebel. But most of them are just really horny people.

I'm thinking of the fact that Canada allows gay marraige. Given my personal views, I believe that long term observance of Canadian marraiges will eventually refute the negative predictions of the gay opposition.

I still havent seen anyone say any reason why they should not be married that wasnt a personal issue or a religious one. Creating laws on the basis of either of these is an abuse of power. Can anyone tell me anyother reasons?? Like ive said so many times banning it cause its against the bible is mixing church and state.

Uhh, Freakin... 'You think' wrong. Bisexuals are people that can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of either sex.

It's maybe not as cut-and-dried as being purely heterosexual or homosexual... there's lots of variations contained by that label: and *lots* of people are at least a *bit* bisexual, ...capable of some attraction to sexes one normally doesn't prefer, for instance, ...lots of people are innately bisexual but simply ignore any socially-unnaceptable attractions until they find one people approve of, ...or one that they can't deny, ...others are just attracted to people without regard for their physical sex, ...but the stereotype that bisexual people 'are just really horny,' is just that... a stereotype.

It doesn't have a basis in reality.

Well This is a good topic for the night. I have to say I believe that it will be accepted sooner than what most think. I believe that there is not going to be a happy medium in the way of will it be considered a marriage or a partnership. Politians will want it to be called a " partnership" while the gay communittee will want the title "Marriage"

Now in my own opinion ... Hey Live life to the best that you can ... And forget what others think.... As long as you don't hurt anyone... who cares

;) I still havent seen anyone say any reason why they should not be married that wasnt a personal issue or a religious one. Creating laws on the basis of either of these is an abuse of power. Can anyone tell me anyother reasons?? Like ive said so many times banning it cause its against the bible is mixing church and state.



:) I agree with you here.... But this is the one way people get out of expressing their true feelings on the subject. I have learned that most people use the Bible or Church as a cover. Instead of saying I dont like the idea of gay marriage cause they feel it should be man and wife... they hide behind the church and the Bible.
Again personally Hey do what makes you happy.... Just don't impose ity on me or my children just as I will not impose my marriage or my personal life on you.... What happens behind closed doors is private and I dont wanna know

Well for one Ive dated four bisexual girls and been friends with um ten to fifteen other bi people (very good friends) and I know them very deeply. Also since I developed this theory Ive read every bisexual profile on facethejury.com every single day for months, and im completely serious too. I just moved and Ive had nothing else to do untill two days ago (when i discovered this site) all ive done each day is read fark.com and facethejury.com inorder to figure that out. Id say absolutely literally 99.9 percent of all bi people on that site have "I LOVE SEX!!" or "nice asses and big tits" in there profiles. Guys seem less horny the girls generally seem really slutty. I said most not all get a profile on that site so you can read the profiles too and youll end up deleting that last statement. saying stereotypical statements are not nice but are generally true about the majority of the genre inwhich your generalizing.

one law thats funny based on the bible, and im not sure if its still true but im told it still is in effect. is that some southern store absolutely will not sell you anything other than food on sundays. This is totally biblical and based on the sabath which is also funny because unless your jewish jesus did away with the sabath when he formed christianity. The only reason that you would still celebrate the sabath is if you were jewish because they dont believe that christ was the messiah so they still follow the greek scriptures and noah. So those bible belters are participating in a religion that they hate and if they ever read there bible they wouldnt celebrate it either.

Uhhh, you're quoting *internet personals* to judge a class of people?

Talk about a biased and unverified sample.

Dude, you may as well do market analysis based on spam you receive.

Let's try ...life. Actual bisexual people.


Doesn't sound like you've gotten out much, in your life.

Well im only bored now because i recently moved twice since summer started so I havent met anyone atleast not in vegas. Its kind of hard to meet people here cause my sister homeschools (i moved in with her) and so she hasnt met anyone either. I do get out. People stating facts about themselves online is the same as asking somebody how horny they are as a bi person. If you want me to list the hundreds and hundreds of links to profiles I will. But you have to sign up for an account or else the website wont let you read them its free. And you know what when ive had as many as i have try to fuck the shit out of me I know its true. Nuff said you do some reasearch take your own advice dont doctor the data and prove me wrong. Get as many bi friends as I have, get as many bi girlfriends as I have read as many bi profiles that i have and then come talk to me. Your gonna reply with something stupid like YAH!! list them, and youll never actualyl read them all. I can prove you wrong so easy.

Uhh. How about this. I *am* bisexual.

Utterly fed up with men. But bisexual.

Thats allright im generalizing i mentioned a million times im not saying all of them. I also never said anything was wrong with them, if i had something against them i wouldnt have kept dating them. I was stating a fact. Tell me do you think that any of your bisexual friends are overly horny?? Fuck easy?? Cheat??

Sweet, the point is you really have no clue.

Little fact of life on the Internet. If someone's presenting themselves as a male fantasy of a bisexual woman, then, odds are that's exactly what they *are*. As in, you do realize a lot of these people aren't who they say they are?

Or that people go to these sites for *cybersex fantasies?*

Your assertion that this is 'how real people are' is *ludicrous on the *face of it.**

Bisexuals are no more likely to be 'horny' (or, *use* the word, 'horny,' for that matter, who *does* that in actual conversation?) ..than anyone else.


Must be getting close to your bedtime, there, kid.

allright SON maybe what your saying is true maybe all those people guys/ mostly girls were lying to turn on guys online. Now your stereotyping that all men like woman on woman. Frankly I dont. lesbians are cool to watch online just because well you can watch a girl get off without having to see a guy. Plus its twice of what you want to see at the same time. Its porn twice as fast. Now when a guy or atleast me knows two girls or sees it in real life its gross I dont know why it just is. So now your doing exactly what I did except that you havent done any asking at all. Also that site is not a site to get layed you meet people on there. And actually alot of guys would rather date a straight girl so you dont have to worry about her cheating on you with her friends. Eatin is cheatin, no matter what clinton says SON. You know its true why are you trying to stand up to it. I offered to prove it, in an hour I can have hundreds of links proving.

allright SON maybe what your saying is true maybe all those people guys/ mostly girls were lying to turn on guys online. Now your stereotyping that all men like woman on woman. Frankly I dont. lesbians are cool to watch online just because well you can watch a girl get off without having to see a guy. Plus its twice of what you want to see at the same time. Its porn twice as fast. Now when a guy or atleast me knows two girls or sees it in real life its gross I dont know why it just is. So now your doing exactly what I did except that you havent done any asking at all. Also that site is not a site to get layed you meet people on there. And actually alot of guys would rather date a straight girl so you dont have to worry about her cheating on you with her friends. Eatin is cheatin, no matter what clinton says SON. You know its true why are you trying to stand up to it. I offered to prove it, in an hour I can have hundreds of links proving.

you're so retarded.

I can see gay marriages being accepted quite soon in the UK. We just had a male to female transexual winning Big Brother with a 75% majority on the vote. There were 4 people left in the house when 'Nadia' recieved 75%, which is quite an impressive majority. Seeing as this was a public vote, I would say that generally the public accepted Nadia for who 'she' claimed to be, rather than who 'he' was born as. This suggests that public opinion in the UK is becoming more open-minded.

However, there is still the whole 'religious' obstacle.

However, there is still the whole 'religious' obstacle.
fortunate for us religiosity has been declining ever since the Industrial Revolution. at this rate we shouldn't have to worry about the "religious obstacle" for more than another hundred years or so.

fortunate for us religiosity has been declining ever since the Industrial Revolution. at this rate we shouldn't have to worry about the "religious obstacle" for more than another hundred years or so.

Only 100 years? Cool. I can plan my wedding for my 132nd Birthday then. lol

Only 100 years? Cool. I can plan my wedding for my 132nd Birthday then. lol

lol, no no, that's when religion will have essentially faded to the background. you should be able to have your wedding within the next 3-10 years, depending on how unconstitutional our legislators decide to be.

The bible actually talks about near armagedon the worlds leaders will claim that they have piece. Alot of people believe that this will happen by slowly getting rid of the worlds religions, which makes alot of sence actually because what religion hasnt been in war or warred upon?? If muslims werent so religiously zealous then they wouldnt be killing "infadels". Same with northern ireland and the crusades, hitler trying to destroy the jews and various other religions like jehovahs witnesses. Monks were very violent in the past.

I vote if kerrys elected then in the next few years. All you need is one state and other states fall fast. Im guessing massachusettes or cali to make the start.

sometimes it seems like bisexual people are just trying to rebel. But most of them are just really horny people.

I am not trying to rebel at all. I just honestly do feel attracted to both genders. In fact at one point I thought that turning down either women or men seemed kinda prudish. I am rather horny but this is irrelivent to who I am attracted to.

I dont think that Christian America will ever allow gay marriage to pass the floor, unless its definition is changed to "civil unions".

I dont think that Christian America will ever allow gay marriage to pass the floor, unless its definition is changed to "civil unions".

too bad America isn't Christian :p

I'm just gonna keep hoping the judges finally step in a go "Hey, FUCK you guys! Gay people-go get married if you want!"

Though obviously not like that :p

too bad America isn't Christian :p

I'm just gonna keep hoping the judges finally step in a go "Hey, FUCK you guys! Gay people-go get married if you want!"

Though obviously not like that :p

America itself may not be a christian majority.....

But the ones who vote certainly are.

too bad America isn't Christian :p

I'm just gonna keep hoping the judges finally step in a go "Hey, FUCK you guys! Gay people-go get married if you want!"

Though obviously not like that :p

That would rule so hard!

Being an atheist and all, the fact that it's even an issue irritates me.

It seems rather inevitable that sooner or later it will be liberalized. Sooner the better I say

Yeah, isn't it that younger people are more for it? So, wait a bit, and the majority will say "Hey, go put on some diapers grandpa, I'm letting the gay people marry!"


...Yeah, I'm in a weird mood if you couldn't tell :p

Yeah, isn't it that younger people are more for it? So, wait a bit, and the majority will say "Hey, go put on some diapers grandpa, I'm letting the gay people marry!"


...Yeah, I'm in a weird mood if you couldn't tell :p

Your weird mood most certainly does not negate the fact that you are utterly right. Unlike with many issue tolerance does not fade over the years, in fact often people become MORE tolerant as they age. Don't believe me? Just compare the amount of 10 year olds using fag as an insult to the amount of 20 year olds. So basicaly the new generation will probably be as if not MORE tolerant and by the time the current, untolerant pensioners are dead and gone then WE the libertines will be in a majority and will be able to win equality.
You see that is the point, once libertines choose to fight an issue they rarely loose in the long run. Take the suffrage movement, the civil rights movement, the anti-slavery movement, the secular system and the inter-racial marriage laws. All of these got through in the end and this shall be no different.

I have an uncle thats gay.

He brings his "significant other" to Christmas dinner, and Thanksgiving, these days.
No one in the family even bats an eye.

He's so much happier these days, now that he doesnt have to hide who he is.

I think it's cool.

How is that wrong?

I have an uncle thats gay.

He brings his "significant other" to Christmas dinner, and Thanksgiving, these days.
No one in the family even bats an eye.

He's so much happier these days, now that he doesnt have to hide who he is.

I think it's cool.

How is that wrong?

Responses and idiot may give to that:

1) Because both of them were abused and it is really trauma! The best way to deal with there mental health problem is to tell them you hate them and alienate and isolate them utterly to make their self esteem go lower!
2) Because that is not what DOG wants!!!!

Responses and idiot may give to that:

1) Because both of them were abused and it is really trauma! The best way to deal with there mental health problem is to tell them you hate them and alienate and isolate them utterly to make their self esteem go lower!
2) Because that is not what DOG wants!!!!


Sadly, Ive heard both of those arguements on this board.

Sadly, Ive heard both of those arguements on this board.

Sad? I think it is hilarious there are still people that stupid in the world... There numbers are shrinking along with Christianity though. It seems my generation is alot more tolerant which is great.

*sing* Talkin' 'bout my Generation

Well, I think that it's only a matter of time until gay 'marriage' becomes legal.

I see there being three likely outcomes:
1. Gays are allowed to 'marry' in the same way straights are
2. 'Marriage' becomes a 'nickname' or religous term. And the legal document itself (that is available to both hetero and homosexuals) becomes "Civil Union" (or something similar) and a legal "marriage" becomes a thing of the past.
3. That the "Separate but equal" Civil Unions stick around for a while, but are eventually challenged at a point when society at large doesn't care about "teh fags" and becomes "Truly equal"

I don't think a total, permanent ban is a likely outcome at all. More, it is simply wishful thinking on the part of religous-right-winger/far-right conservatives whose kind is fast becoming less acceptable than homosexuals themselves.

Edit: Edited for continuity.

The way I see it, the Dems will keep flip-flopping on this. However, I'm hoping a Republican president comes to power that will use the following logic:

It is a Republican/conservative belief that the States should settle issues like these on their own w/o the need of the Federal government stepping in. Rather than just constitutionally ban gay marriage, he/she would let the States individually settly the issue on their own.


Actually, some Republicans are already calling for this plan of action, however they have little political power individually

The way I see it, the Dems will keep flip-flopping on this. However, I'm hoping a Republican president comes to power that will use the following logic

The Dems can keep flip-flopping as much as they like, on this issue. I'd still vote for them. Better to have an indecisive leader than a leader who's is hell bent on persecuting those he personally has a problem with. :rolleyes:

The Dems can keep flip-flopping as much as they like, on this issue. I'd still vote for them. Better to have an indecisive leader than a leader who's is hell bent on persecuting those he personally has a problem with. :rolleyes:

Here here!
However here is my map of the gay marriage issue as I see it:

2004 November
Kerry is elected and instates civil unions.
Bush is elected and continues to try and fail to ban gay marriage nation wide.

2008
Kerry is re-elected.
Kerry loses to a republican who will probably not turn around civil unions.
The Democracts choose either Hillary Clinton or John Edwards as their official runner and the winner chooses the other one. Either way I predict a landslide victory if this is the scenario. They will then legalise civil unions.

Gay Marriages will become the normal in the not to distant future. Although polls show that most countries are split 50/50 on the issue, the spit tends to show that older people are against, while younger are accepting of gay marriage.

In Canada, our constitution protects descrimination against sexual orientation. The Marrage act has been challenged and gay marriages are now completely legal in 3 provinces. The Canadian government is expected to upgrade and pass a new marriage act deleting any specific reference to Man & Woman only being married.

In a bizare twist, although the marriage act was challenged, the divorce act wasn't. Currently you can have a gay marriage in Canada but you'd better not ever get divorced :)

Gay marriage is such a sore issue for many because marriage in general exists in two separate realms. It's a religious institution, and it's a legal contract. I think the obvious solution is for government to stop recognizing marriages completely, and simply offer "domestic partnership agreements" to any interested couples, gay or straight. Then if gays want a religious marriage, they need only find a religion that will perform the ceremony.
P.S. I saw a funny T-shirt that said "I believe in gay marriage, but only if both chicks are hot."

well, the T was odviously made by a straight man!

As for the rest of this post, I would have to agree. If the courts would step out of peoples bedrooms and stick to more useful and productive issues our tax dollars would hopefully go to better use. Besides, how is it anyone elses business what I do in the privacy of my own home? That should only be between my partner, my God, and me!

Christianity is stagnant ... 0% growth. I don't think we'll have to worry about them much longer. Fastest growing religion in the US? Paganism ... and Pagan covens almost invariably perform gay marriages.

I know I do.[/QUOTE]

This is because the Pagan religions realize that there is both masculin and feminine energy and traits in everything. Everyone has both estrogen and testosterone in their bodies in various amounts. Because of this, every person (gay or straight) has both masculin and feminine qualities. The major diferences are the level of each hormone, and the way in which the child is raised.

That isn't to say that kids with extremely homophobic families are any less likely to be gay, but they do tend to hide their orientations better (and for the most part, longer). Nor are kids with gay parents any more likely to be gay themselves... As far as I know, it's still 10% across the board. I have noticed that kids with gay or gay friendly parents do tend to come out sooner, and have an easier time adjusting though.

I'm sure at least one state is going to legalize it right when Kerry takes over and the other states will fall soon after.[/QUOTE]

I truely hope that this perdiction comes to pass!!!

Hmmmm alright, since this thread is purely about the future of it....

I believe it will become socially accepted within 20-30 years. There will still be many many people who hate them, but as far as the government is concerned, it will be fine.

However, I do NOT believe this is in any way comparable to women's rights or black rights or things like that. The difference is, with women and blacks, people didn't believe in giving them the same rights because they believed they were inferior intellectually, so didn't want them to be a part of the social norm/vote etc. That sort of thing can be disproved, all you have to do is find a bunch of really intelligent women and blacks who are more intelligent than most white people, and you have proven the basis for the discrimination wrong.

Gay marriage on the other hand, is NOT based on that. No one who opposes gay marriage (well okay, maybe some, but most do not) does so because he or she thinks gays are stupid or incapable of rational thought or anything like that. They oppose it for moral reasons. THAT is the difference.

The way things are going now, I think the state will soon begin trying to force Christian and other religions that are against gay marriage to marry gay couples... which I think is wrong. I'm not actually even Christian, but having read the bible (and I know alot more about Christianity than you'd expect of a non-christian), but seriously, if you are truly a devout Christian, you would oppose gay marriage.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't oppose it if two people want to be united under state law, but I am straight, and if a gay guy hits on me or something, he can expect my fist in his face if he doesn't leave me alone after I tell him to.

My opinion might be actually slightly more biased... seeing as I have so many friends that are bi...

I have noticed too that bisexuals and gays tend to be overly horny and slutty.... (well "slutty" doesn't really apply to guys, but ... the same idea, but for guys, I don't know the word) This isn't a perception either, every single bi or gay person I've ever met is someone I'd consider slutty....

I have noticed too that bisexuals and gays tend to be overly horny and slutty.... (well "slutty" doesn't really apply to guys, but ... the same idea, but for guys, I don't know the word) This isn't a perception either, every single bi or gay person I've ever met is someone I'd consider slutty....

Erm.. well, every single heterosexual person I've met, that's around my age, is very much the same: horny and rather slutty. Or at least very horny, thought they haven't had the chance to be slutty.

I'd say it's more to do with youth than sexual orientation. Not to say there aren't 30+ homosexuals who aren't slutty, because there are, but there are plenty of 30+ heterosexuals who are slutty too.

I'm personally not slutty, and I'm homosexual. Sure, I used to have sex quite a bit, but it didn't take me long to grow out of that.

That isn't to say that kids with extremely homophobic families are any less likely to be gay, but they do tend to hide their orientations better (and for the most part, longer). Nor are kids with gay parents any more likely to be gay themselves... As far as I know, it's still 10% across the board. I have noticed that kids with gay or gay friendly parents do tend to come out sooner, and have an easier time adjusting though.

Replace hide with supress in the first part of your post and I think you are right. Gay children from homophobic families tend to be miserable because I fear the response I got on a post similiar to this one when talking to a homophobe is perhaps a uniform one: "If my son told me he was gay I would send him off to the military and not let him come back until he was strait". Yes, yes I know that most people would be smart enough to realise that the military do not even accept gay people in the US and you can not get turned strait and if you could being close to loads of other men at all hours of the day would hardly help. :rolleyes:
Your posts one error is the popular but still wrong 10% stat. The study the spawned that neat statistic was done in a very biased fashion and the amount is closer to 7% homosexuals with bi guys like me...Erm...Not to sure about that *Shrug*. But think about it this way: is one in ten people you meet gay? I know that that is not the case with me.
Good post apart from that though.

I have noticed too that bisexuals and gays tend to be overly horny and slutty.... (well "slutty" doesn't really apply to guys, but ... the same idea, but for guys, I don't know the word) This isn't a perception either, every single bi or gay person I've ever met is someone I'd consider slutty....

You know pretty much every hetro dude my age I have met is slutty...Just listen to some rap music...

Wtf is every goin on about gay marrige 4 if the gay ppl wann get married let them nd if they dnt then o well i think every1 is bein gay by arguwin about this :fluffle:

Wtf is every goin on about gay marrige 4 if the gay ppl wann get married let them nd if they dnt then o well i think every1 is bein gay by arguwin about this :fluffle:

I agree with you but please try and spell better...