NationStates Jolt Archive

McCain Condemns Anti-Kerry Ad
Republican Senator Calls Attack 'Dishonest and Dishonorable'
By RON FOURNIER, AP


Sen. John McCain said a campaign ad criticizing John Kerry's military service was "dishonest and dishonorable." The White House declined to comment.

WASHINGTON (Aug. 5) - Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service ''dishonest and dishonorable'' and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

The White House declined.

''It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,'' McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, comparing the anti-Kerry ad to tactics in his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

''When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry,'' one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

''I wish they hadn't done it,'' McCain said of his former advisers. ''I don't know if they knew all the facts.''

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, ''I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.''


"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me."
-Sen. John McCain

McCain, chairman of Bush's campaign in Arizona, later said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, ''I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt.''

White House spokesman Scott McClellan declined to condemn the ad. He did denounce the proliferation of spending by independent groups, such as the anti-Kerry veterans organization, that are playing on both sides of the political fence.

''The president thought he got rid of this unregulated soft money when he signed the bipartisan campaign finance reform into law,'' McClellan said. A chief sponsor of that bill, which Bush initially opposed, was McCain.

In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because ''it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal.''

''I deplore this kind of politics,'' McCain said. ''I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.''




Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, head of the Swift Boat group, said they respected McCain's ''right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Sen. McCain did not.''

McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. Three veterans on Kerry's boat that day - Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said the group was lying.

They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's account ''pure fabrication.''

Hoffmann said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's. The group claims that there was no gunfire on the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from a muddy river in the Mekong Delta and that Kerry's arm was not wounded, as he has claimed.


08-05-04 1328EDT

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press.

__________________________________________________________
You know things are bad when people cross party lines to defend a candidate.

John Kerry deserves to be critized.

McCain is a guy I would vote for....

The group that is making the claims is a PAC so the "truth" may not be what is guiding them.....

John Kerry deserves to be critized.
Every politician does. But not if the facts are on their side in an incident.

Doh! I thought Rove and Wolfie doused this little spitfire?

Preach it, McCain!

I would have voted for Mccain. I would have voted for Clark. A Clark/McCain ticket would rule.

I like McCain's comment that Bush served admirably in the Texas national gaurd during the vietnam war

John Kerry deserves to be critized.
On this issue, it appears that John Mc Cain would disagree with you?

You should supply a link to your article. Not that I'm a Republican, just I believe in debating fairly and you deserve to be criticized for not linking us.

On this issue, it appears that John Mc Cain would disagree with you?
Yes. It appears McCain would argue "Politicians deserve to be criticized fairly."

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

You should supply a link to your article. Not that I'm a Republican, just I believe in debating fairly and you deserve to be criticized for not linking us.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040805_1092.html

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

it's so cut5e when they get all flustered. You are such a cutttttttttttieeeeee :fluffle:

Actually the Whitehouse does have something to do with it. McCain requested that they condemn the ad, but they declined.

Link this please, and, Kerry didn't need this kind of BS hurled at him. The assholes should have saved it for Bush.

Link this please, and, Kerry didn't need this kind of BS hurled at him. The assholes should have saved it for Bush.
Hello? I just did.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040805_1092.html

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:
thats definately not the work of the bush administration, way too mature for them, they like to use ads with silyl accusations that people will believe because they dotn research and stuff like cartoon themes

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

If had actually been the swift boat veterans who served with Kerry, that would be a very different story, now wouldn't it?

Why can't McCain run for president (and get a nomination)? There's someone I would vote for!

You should supply a link to your article. Not that I'm a Republican, just I believe in debating fairly and you deserve to be criticized for not linking us.


I will, Opal Isle, but it's AOHell's proprietary news feed and only AOHellers can see it, I believe. I figured by listing it in its entirety, with the reporter's name and the AP copyright, people could verify that it is in fact what it seems to be.


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/elections/article.adp?id=20040805103009990002

John Kerry deserves to be critized.

That's probably true, but criticized about what? Remember, this article is specifically about John McCain, who is a Republican senator pointing out that this particular advertisement is not fair, not true, and therefore, the ad ought to be condemned by Bush.

I think Kerry should sue the people who produced this slanderous and untrue ad for libel and as for those backstabbing liar vets who would trash another vet this way all I gotta say is its too bad these traitors didnt die in Nam-theyre a disgrace to America

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

If you're going to flame, please leave my thread. Thanks.

If you're going to flame, please leave my thread. Thanks.
Kim Il sung lies more then Bush does--none of these wormy vets ever served directly with Kerry and of course Bush is behind this slanderous ad since he wont denounce it

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040805_1092.html

Thanks, UP, dear -- mine was an elitist AOHell link. ;)

Thanks, UP, dear -- mine was an elitist AOHell link. ;)
You're welcome Kat ;) (I used Google news search :p)

Why, yes! Now that you mention it switching over to the democrats might improve McCain's mass appeal, but we've seen that mass appeal doesn't win elections ;-)

I will, Opal Isle, but it's AOHell's proprietary news feed and only AOHellers can see it, I believe. I figured by listing it in its entirety, with the reporter's name and the AP copyright, people could verify that it is in fact what it seems to be.


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/elections/article.adp?id=20040805103009990002
Meh, just saw it on CNN.

I'm glad someone else mentioned this. I was wondering how long the semi-lovefest between Bush and McCain would last. McCain's got one button--Vietnam--and the Bush supporters can't seem to help themselves; they've just got to push it.

It's a mistake. McCain has far better likeability ratings than any other Republican, and far more respect among independents and undecided voters. Bush had McCain on his side for a while--now the best Bush can hope for is that McCain won't actively oppose him for this kind of crap.

One last thing--the guy leading the charge here on the ad, named Larry Thurlow (been making the rounds on CNN, etc) also won a Bronze Star for the very same incident that his group is currently criticizing Kerry's action in. If Kerry didn't deserve his Bronze Star, neither did Thurlow, but Thurlow seems to be in no hurry to return his medal to the Defense department, and I imagine if you suggested to Thurlow that he was in possession of a fraudulently obtained medal, he'd be a touch belligerent about it. Hope a journalist gets the stones to ask him that very question.

We should do whatever McCain says cause he's cool.

John Kerry deserves to be critized.

Criticized yes, lied about and slandered, no!

Another reason why I'd vote for McCain. Next thing you know I'll be back to center.

IMHO, a McCain/Powell ticket would rock like there's no tomorrow. Then once the opponents bring up Powell's wife, they can claim the moral high ground and sweep it like there's no tomorrow!

I agree, Kerry should be criticised like all politicians that stick their neck out there, but outright lies are not a good standard for the Bush Administration to set.

and there you have it folks.

When a member of the opposite party takes a stand and defends the man running AGAINST the man who he will vote for...

What does that tell you?

It tells me that Bush's smear campaign against Kerry's service record steps over the boundaries of good taste.

When a noted Republican like John Mc Cain, speaks out against Bush, who are members of th same party, you HAVE to realize how awful and dirty Bush is playing.

How can you possibly trust a man who "approves this message" ?
How can you even THINK that not supporting Bush, means that you dont support America, or its soldiers, even though they are fighting in a war that was started over lies, and money.

Another reason why I'd vote for McCain. Next thing you know I'll be back to center.

IMHO, a McCain/Powell ticket would rock like there's no tomorrow. Then once the opponents bring up Powell's wife, they can claim the moral high ground and sweep it like there's no tomorrow!

I agree, Kerry should be criticised like all politicians that stick their neck out there, but outright lies are not a good standard for the Bush Administration to set.

Mmmmm...McCain/Powell ticket. *Homer Simpson drool*

Mmmmm...McCain/Powell ticket. *Homer Simpson drool*
McCain can still lead a ticket but Powell is damaged goods

McCain can still lead a ticket but Powell is damaged goods
Are you, Mister Ultra-left, suggesting that you would vote for a dyed in the wool conservative like McCain?

And yeah--I took you off my ignore list for the time being. I'm sure you're thrilled. :D

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't pick a side. I pick a candidate.

McCain should have been the Republican candidate in 2000. He should be the candidate in 2004. Incumbent be damned. Bush has pissed off his OWN party so much... I bet it really hurts republicans physically to support him. Lots of republican teeth-grinding at the ballot boxes this year.

Let's be honest... how many republicans are endorsing Bush because he's a republican and not because they like the bastard and think he'll do a good job?

...much like democrats and Kerry. ;)

Are you, Mister Ultra-left, suggesting that you would vote for a dyed in the wool conservative like McCain?

And yeah--I took you off my ignore list for the time being. I'm sure you're thrilled. :D
I just think McCain is one of the very few republicans left with any integrity. And yeah Im thrilled you took me off ignore ;)

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't pick a side. I pick a candidate.

McCain should have been the Republican candidate in 2000. He should be the candidate in 2004. Incumbent be damned. Bush has pissed off his OWN party so much... I bet it really hurts republicans physically to support him. Lots of republican teeth-grinding at the ballot boxes this year.

Let's be honest... how many republicans are endorsing Bush because he's a republican and not because they like the bastard and think he'll do a good job?

...much like democrats and Kerry. ;)

I'd vote for McCain in a second too, but unfortunately that wasn't an option -- maybe 2008???

I just think McCain is one of the very few republicans left with any integrity.

This is another one of the very few times I agree with MKUltra, and he didn't even link democracynow... bonus!

Although, I think there's more than a "few" Republicans with integrity, certainly as many as there are Democrats, but McCain isn't willing to take on the job, so he probably never will.

Just curious though MK, how is Colin Powell "damaged goods"? Becasue he worked for Bush, or what?

I live in AZ, and I gotta say, I have tons of respect for McCain. Don't always agree with him (being the socialist that I am), but I really respect the man. He will always speak and vote his conscience, and doesn't resort to the same kind of politicizing that others so frequently engage in. I have to say, I would not be pissed if McCain was president. I'd be happier with a leftie, but I could stomach McCain. Or Lieberman. He's my other favorite Republican. ;)

Yet another reason I like McCain. McCain is at the top of the list of people I admire as a person. Though I am liberal and don't agree with him on many of the issues, I deeply respect and admire his non-partisanship and willingness to criticize his own side, and willingness to admit when he was wrong. I would vote for him, even though I don't agree with him on all of the issues, simply because we NEED more men like John McCain as leaders. He has not fallen into the corruption of partisanship, and for that reason I have great respect for him.

This is another one of the very few times I agree with MKUltra, and he didn't even link democracynow... bonus!

Although, I think there's more than a "few" Republicans with integrity, certainly as many as there are Democrats, but McCain isn't willing to take on the job, so he probably never will.

Just curious though MK, how is Colin Powell "damaged goods"? Becasue he worked for Bush, or what?
when was the first time you agreed with me on?
oh Powell became damaged when he starting acten like a toolbag

In case anyone hasn't yet seen the ad:

http://www.swiftvets.com/

About the ad--isn't it curious that none of the people in the ad actually served with Kerry, and that of the 6 people who were on Kerry's swift boat, 5 are supporters and the other is deceased? Seems to me that the people closest to Kerry in Vietnam are in the best position to pass judgment on his service.

About the ad--isn't it curious that none of the people in the ad actually served with Kerry, and that of the 6 people who were on Kerry's swift boat, 5 are supporters and the other is deceased? Seems to me that the people closest to Kerry in Vietnam are in the best position to pass judgment on his service.
the dr in the ad who claimes to have treated Kerry is a fraud too--Kerry should sue Karl Rove and any station that airs this ad for libel

This is another one of the very few times I agree with MKUltra, and he didn't even link democracynow... bonus!

Although, I think there's more than a "few" Republicans with integrity, certainly as many as there are Democrats, but McCain isn't willing to take on the job, so he probably never will.

Just curious though MK, how is Colin Powell "damaged goods"? Becasue he worked for Bush, or what?


Dont be so sure.

He ran in 2000.
He would have run this year as well, but the G.O.P naturally backs the incumbent George Bush.

Im betting its McCain for the Republican bid in 08.

the dr in the ad who claimes to have treated Kerry is a fraud too--Kerry should sue Karl Rove and any station that airs this ad for libel


Karl Rove is the Devil Incarnate.

He even bashes his own people.

In 2000, when he was suporting Bush's bid for the Nomination, South Carolina residents recieved the following call:

"Hi Im from an independant polling company, and we were wondering if you could spare some time and answer a question for us..?"

Unsuspecting Caller: "Uh..I guess so..."

Minion of evil : "Great. If you knew that John Mcain was a liar and a thief, and had fathered an illegitimate black child, would you be more likely to vote for him, or less likely to do so?"




This was an actual Push-poll designed by Karl Rove.

Against a member of his own party.

First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

If you can't debate in a civilised manner then I suggest you leave this forum.

Myrth
Forum Moderator

You'll all be happy to know it's being heavily reported this morning that none of these men actually served with John Kerry, it's a good old fashion smear campaign. In other words, it's a lie and bullshit at it's best. All the men who actually did serve with John Kerry are outraged at this lie trying to be sold to the American people. It seems their true beef is what Kerry said about Vietnam when he came home. Any way, bottom line they're lying, they never served with him.

I think Kerry should sue the people who produced this slanderous and untrue ad for libel and as for those backstabbing liar vets who would trash another vet this way all I gotta say is its too bad these traitors didnt die in Nam-theyre a disgrace to America

I guess I should have died in "nam" too. But I didn't. People like you make me sick. I don't think you've ever seen, let alone been a participant in combat. Kerry gave up his rights to call himself a hero when he came back and said the things he did. You could never understand how his statements hurt his fellow vets. The disgrace to America was when he stated that his fellow vets had comitted thousands of war crimes. Ask your "hero" about the crimes he committed, like killing an unarmed woman and her child.

If Kerry could sue for libel then couldn't Bush sue MoveOn and Soros. Soros is a loser who pumped millions of dollars in ads lying about Bush. Like comparing him to Hitler.

Kerry is no hero, after 3 questionable "wounds" he leaves his band of brothers after only 4 months in country to come back and defame us. You need to wake up and see the real world, hopefully you can grow up and become somewhat mature.

BTW How many MOH winners support Kerry?

You'll all be happy to know it's being heavily reported this morning that none of these men actually served with John Kerry, it's a good old fashion smear campaign. In other words, it's a lie and bullshit at it's best. All the men who actually did serve with John Kerry are outraged at this lie trying to be sold to the American people. It seems their true beef is what Kerry said about Vietnam when he came home. Any way, bottom line they're lying, they never served with him.

You don't have to serve on the same boat in order to have served with someone. Many times multiple boats were on patrol together, you can see what goes on in other boats. Just like we sometimes flew with wingmen when we went out. In fact our squad leader won his MOH after my pilot and I (the EWO) saw his heroics near Hanoi and reported what we saw to our commanding officer.

BTW did you see that little Vietnam film at the DNC? You just have to love the work that Spielberg can do. Nice fake bullets hitting the water.

You don't have to serve on the same boat in order to have served with someone. Many times multiple boats were on patrol together, you can see what goes on in other boats. Just like we sometimes flew with wingmen when we went out. In fact our squad leader won his MOH after my pilot and I (the EWO) saw his heroics near Hanoi and reported what we saw to our commanding officer.

BTW did you see that little Vietnam film at the DNC? You just have to love the work that Spielberg can do. Nice fake bullets hitting the water.

Yeah, understood, this wasn't the case here either, they are just bitter 'Nam vets who are pissed about what Kerry said about Vietnam when he came home. None of them where in any position to see what they are claiming to have seen. It was on CNN this morning.. one of the guys all but admitted that they are just pissed off about what he (Kerry) said when he got home.

It's a lie!

You don't have to serve on the same boat in order to have served with someone. Many times multiple boats were on patrol together, you can see what goes on in other boats. Just like we sometimes flew with wingmen when we went out. In fact our squad leader won his MOH after my pilot and I (the EWO) saw his heroics near Hanoi and reported what we saw to our commanding officer.

BTW did you see that little Vietnam film at the DNC? You just have to love the work that Spielberg can do. Nice fake bullets hitting the water.


At this point, you have to assume then that each and every member of Kerry's crew are liars, as is Rassmann - the gentleman that Kerry rescued and a registered Republican up until last year - as all of them back up the circumstances of the rescue as occurring under fire..

You may also disagree with Kerry's politics after he returned. That is fair. You may decide that this negates his being called a hero. Up to you.

But when you decide to buy these peoples story you then are casting one hell of a wide net of people you are willing to smear for political gain. None of whom backed up Kerry in his stance after the war.

Kerry and McCain are a match made in hell. They're two sides of the same coin. They're as identical as Woodrow Wilson and Edward Mandell House were.

Here's a little update on the "Swift Boat Veterans Against the Truth." From today's Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/):

But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book....

Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star.

''I still don't think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."

Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That's no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."

The affidavit also contradicted earlier statements by Elliott, who came to Boston during Kerry's 1996 Senate campaign to defend Kerry on similar charges, saying that Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. Wonder if this will get the play on CNN that the original charges got? Who am I kidding--of course it won't, because if it did, the media might be charged with being liberal. Ugh.

I guess I should have died in "nam" too. But I didn't. People like you make me sick. I don't think you've ever seen, let alone been a participant in combat. Kerry gave up his rights to call himself a hero when he came back and said the things he did. You could never understand how his statements hurt his fellow vets. The disgrace to America was when he stated that his fellow vets had comitted thousands of war crimes. Ask your "hero" about the crimes he committed, like killing an unarmed woman and her child.

If Kerry could sue for libel then couldn't Bush sue MoveOn and Soros. Soros is a loser who pumped millions of dollars in ads lying about Bush. Like comparing him to Hitler.

Kerry is no hero, after 3 questionable "wounds" he leaves his band of brothers after only 4 months in country to come back and defame us. You need to wake up and see the real world, hopefully you can grow up and become somewhat mature.

BTW How many MOH winners support Kerry?

Agreed. Kerry is arguably one of the greatest traitors in the history of the nation. No wonder the vast majority of Vietnam veterans hate that slimeball's guts.

Ahh here we go again. Hannibal and Roach. :rolleyes:

Hannibal you should know better if you are indeed a vet. If there is a firefight, the guys in the other boat would have been fighting as well. They wouldn't have been sitting there eating popcorn and wondering WTF is Kerry doing?

The fact is simple. These thirteen "honorable" veterns(Well "twelve" since one decided to recant his mistake) are nothing more then guys pissed off at the Kerry speaking out against that f'd up war. They are a Political Action Committe with ties to the Repubs.

They are not about the truth.

Hannibal, normally I give a great deal of respect to vets who were wounded in combat as my family have been soldiers for longer then we can remember. However, I wonder about you.

One thing I do know; guys who are decorated in combat usually don't talk about medals. My family didn't. My ranger buddy didn't. A guy I know who is ex-Delta doesn't. Thunderland doesn't

Kerry does as he is a politician and the Americans like war heros.

What's your excuse?

I really don't see how you can get so pissed about people speaking out against the crap war. Especially with the way the Goverment has treated the Vets over the years. This country screwed the Nam vets. You yourself mentioned it witht he incidents of your family. It is only recent years that it's trying to make up for them.

The facts are simple. America was not innocent in that war.

The Viet Cong and the NVA did some shitty things. We also did some shitty things. As said before my Ranger buddy told me a few stories that made me go :eek:

You can argue the hero status all you want. Fact is he still took his chances in a job that had high casuality rates.

Ok you can start your "band of brothers" comments......

Ahh here we go again. Hannibal and Roach. :rolleyes:

Hannibal you should know better if you are indeed a vet. If there is a firefight, the guys in the other boat would have been fighting as well. They wouldn't have been sitting there eating popcorn and wondering WTF is Kerry doing?

The fact is simple. These thirteen "honorable" veterns(Well "twelve" since one decided to recant his mistake) are nothing more then guys pissed off at the Kerry speaking out against that f'd up war. They are a Political Action Committe with ties to the Repubs.

They are not about the truth.

Hannibal, normally I give a great deal of respect to vets who were wounded in combat as my family have been soldiers for longer then we can remember. However, I wonder about you.

One thing I do know; guys who are decorated in combat usually don't talk about medals. My family didn't. My ranger buddy didn't. A guy I know who is ex-Delta doesn't. Thunderland doesn't

Kerry does as he is a politician and the Americans like war heros.

What's your excuse?

I really don't see how you can get so pissed about people speaking out against the crap war. Especially with the way the Goverment has treated the Vets over the years. This country screwed the Nam vets. You yourself mentioned it witht he incidents of your family. It is only recent years that it's trying to make up for them.

The facts are simple. America was not innocent in that war.

The Viet Cong and the NVA did some shitty things. We also did some shitty things. As said before my Ranger buddy told me a few stories that made me go :eek:

You can argue the hero status all you want. Fact is he still took his chances in a job that had high casuality rates.

Ok you can start your "band of brothers" comments......

First of all, please give my regards to the vets you know. Second, you call Vietnam an "f'd up war." What, then, is an f'd up war? Personally, I think all wars are f'd up. Third, it's not just twelve or thirteen vets that are anti-Kerry. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans are anti-Kerry. Fourth, the VC and NVA did 'sh*tty things' on a regular, day-to-day basis; U.S. soldiers did not. Yes, some of them committed atrocities, I'm not denying that- but most of them did not.

bump

First of all, please give my regards to the vets you know. Second, you call Vietnam an "f'd up war." What, then, is an f'd up war? Personally, I think all wars are f'd up. Third, it's not just twelve or thirteen vets that are anti-Kerry. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans are anti-Kerry. Fourth, the VC and NVA did 'sh*tty things' on a regular, day-to-day basis; U.S. soldiers did not. Yes, some of them committed atrocities, I'm not denying that- but most of them did not.
Vast majority don't support Kerry? Where do you get that from? You can't just make statements like that without backing them up. You may well be correct, but I'd like to see some data on it.

Vast majority don't support Kerry? Where do you get that from? You can't just make statements like that without backing them up. You may well be correct, but I'd like to see some data on it.

One moment, please. I'll go dig up some links.

First of all, please give my regards to the vets you know. Second, you call Vietnam an "f'd up war." What, then, is an f'd up war? Personally, I think all wars are f'd up. Third, it's not just twelve or thirteen vets that are anti-Kerry. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans are anti-Kerry. Fourth, the VC and NVA did 'sh*tty things' on a regular, day-to-day basis; U.S. soldiers did not. Yes, some of them committed atrocities, I'm not denying that- but most of them did not.
yeah so jsut because a few committed atrocities, they didnt happen, is it just me or do conservatives have number problems, seems that way

and roach, oh no, some one is opposing a war, he must be a traitor, even more so if he was in it. hello, clue train, better get on. wouldnt those people who participated in teh war be in the best position to OPPOSE IT. WOOO WOOO, clue train now leaving the station, last call. we have what is called freedom of speech and assembly and OPINION

Here we go: www.hanoijohnkerry.com

In addition to that, go to www.hanoijohnkerry.com/links.html

There, you'll find links to the following:

Beat Kerry 2004
Crush Kerry
Dirty Kerry
I Hate John Kerry
John F. Kerry Sucks
John F'n Kerry
John Kerry Truth
Kerry Lied
Kerry Quotes
No Kerry
No To Kerry
POW/MIA Families Against John Kerry
Protest Warrior -- (link to a special link page)
Saving Grace or Saving Face -- New HJK book site
Senator FlipFlop
Socialist Kerry
Swift Vets
Useful Fools
Vets Against Kerry
Vets Truth
Vietnam Special Forces Veterans Against Kerry
Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry
Wintersoldier.com

One moment, please. I'll go dig up some links.
Thanks--and if this is poll based, I'd like to see the methodology as well. I suspect that any poll conducted on such a limited set of people will have a high MOE and questionable methodology--hard to be random when you're targeting such a limited group.

Here we go: www.hanoijohnkerry.com

In addition to that, go to www.hanoijohnkerry.com/links.html

There, you'll find links to the following:

Beat Kerry 2004
Crush Kerry
Dirty Kerry
I Hate John Kerry
John F. Kerry Sucks
John F'n Kerry
John Kerry Truth
Kerry Lied
Kerry Quotes
No Kerry
No To Kerry
POW/MIA Families Against John Kerry
Protest Warrior -- (link to a special link page)
Saving Grace or Saving Face -- New HJK book site
Senator FlipFlop
Socialist Kerry
Swift Vets
Useful Fools
Vets Against Kerry
Vets Truth
Vietnam Special Forces Veterans Against Kerry
Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry
Wintersoldier.com
You're fucking kidding me, right? This is your proof? I was expecting something, well, legitimate, Roach-Busters.

yeah so jsut because a few committed atrocities, they didnt happen, is it just me or do conservatives have number problems, seems that way

and roach, oh no, some one is opposing a war, he must be a traitor, even more so if he was in it. hello, clue train, better get on. wouldnt those people who participated in teh war be in the best position to OPPOSE IT. WOOO WOOO, clue train now leaving the station, last call. we have what is called freedom of speech and assembly and OPINION

First of all, I am sick to death of your goddamn flaming. Grow up or don't bother posting. And for your information, most Vietnam veterans did not commit atrocities. I never said opposing a war made someone a traitor. Kerry did more than oppose the war, though; he marched alongside anti-American extremists, radicals, and communists; slandered his fellow vets' reputations; provided incalculable moral aid to the enemy; and, in later years, helped cover up evidence that some of our POWs are still being held over there. By the way, how old are you, anyway? Ten?

You're fucking kidding me, right? This is your proof? I was expecting something, well, legitimate, Roach-Busters.

Don't flame, please. Also, please check out the sites before deciding whether or not they're legitimate.

First of all, please give my regards to the vets you know. Second, you call Vietnam an "f'd up war." What, then, is an f'd up war? Personally, I think all wars are f'd up. Third, it's not just twelve or thirteen vets that are anti-Kerry. The vast majority of Vietnam veterans are anti-Kerry. Fourth, the VC and NVA did 'sh*tty things' on a regular, day-to-day basis; U.S. soldiers did not. Yes, some of them committed atrocities, I'm not denying that- but most of them did not.

I will pass on the comments. My ranger buddy still has issues after 40 years. He saw ugly combat. Hand to hand, etc. but what always bothered him was his buddy. They were out together. His buddy stepped on a mine was was turned into well I think you can imagine. My buddy has his hat and he said the damndest thing was the fact that he and that hat came through clean. I know its going to be a long day when he shows up wearing that hat.

I dont' know about a vast majority. Stuff I read says there are many that are pissed off at him and yet there are many that support him.

As to being an f'd up war. Something to consider. My buddy once said (not exact) I always wondered why we sad in the South waiting for them. Why didn't we move into the North? At least there wouldn't have to hessiate to shoot. Wouldn't have to worry about who to shoot. I don't buy the Chinese equation. The Viets took 1000 years to get rid of them. Why would they want them back."

Mind you the above comments was from a loooong converstation. He did 2 tours and he speaks against the war and supports Kerry.

There are other things I could say about the war as comments from my Boss who is from North VietNam but that would take the thread in a different direction ;)

Don't flame, please. Also, please check out the sites before deciding whether or not they're legitimate.
I've already done it--long ago. I believe in investigating your opponents' points of view. These sites are full of the same discredited crap that the RNC has been issuing as talking points for over a year now.

And, you know the White House had nothing to do with it because you are a White House insider? If not, maybe you ought to think twice before you post. I wish people on here would stick to facts and not venom!



First of all, the White House has nothing to do with this. If that little bitch McCain has a problem with the ad then he should take it up with the Swift Boat Veterens who served with sKerry and made the ad. McCain can be such a wimp. He's an embarrasment to the GOP. He should just get it over with and become a democrap and Shut the Hell Up! :gundge:

I will pass on the comments. My ranger buddy still has issues after 40 years. He saw ugly combat. Hand to hand, etc. but what always bothered him was his buddy. They were out together. His buddy stepped on a mine was was turned into well I think you can imagine. My buddy has his hat and he said the damndest thing was the fact that he and that hat came through clean. I know its going to be a long day when he shows up wearing that hat.

I dont' know about a vast majority. Stuff I read says there are many that are pissed off at him and yet there are many that support him.

As to being an f'd up war. Something to consider. My buddy once said (not exact) I always wondered why we sad in the South waiting for them. Why didn't we move into the North? At least there wouldn't have to hessiate to shoot. Wouldn't have to worry about who to shoot. I don't buy the Chinese equation. The Viets took 1000 years to get rid of them. Why would they want them back."

Mind you the above comments was from a loooong converstation. He did 2 tours and he speaks against the war and supports Kerry.

There are other things I could say about the war as comments from my Boss who is from North VietNam but that would take the thread in a different direction ;)

Agreed, the no-win war rules were extremely asinine. Did you know, for example, that pilots were not permitted to attack SAM sites while they were under construction, but only after they were operational? That communist MiGs sitting on a runway could not be attacked? Only when they were in the air, had been clearly identified, and were after you could they be shot down. The vast majority of the targets the JCS wanted bombed were off-limits. If the enemy chickened out and ran to Laos or Cambodia, sorry. Chasing them was a no-no. You couldn't even fire at the enemy unless fired upon! (That is, assuming the enemy missed...) Moreover, 80-85% of the North Vietnamese war materials came from the Soviet Union. And most of the Soviet Union's supplies came from us. F'd up, indeed!

And, you know the White House had nothing to do with it because you are a White House insider? If not, maybe you ought to think twice before you post. I wish people on here would stick to facts and not venom!

When a mod comments on attitudes; there is no need to further the discussion! ;)

I've already done it--long ago. I believe in investigating your opponents' points of view. These sites are full of the same discredited crap that the RNC has been issuing as talking points for over a year now.

Well, thanks for at least checking them out.

I think Kerry should sue the people who produced this slanderous and untrue ad for libel and as for those backstabbing liar vets who would trash another vet this way all I gotta say is its too bad these traitors didnt die in Nam-theyre a disgrace to America

Kinda like when Kerry returned and trashed his fellow vets....calling them murderers, racists, and every other name in the book?

bump

Agreed, the no-win war rules were extremely asinine. Did you know, for example, that pilots were not permitted to attack SAM sites while they were under construction, but only after they were operational? That communist MiGs sitting on a runway could not be attacked? Only when they were in the air, had been clearly identified, and were after you could they be shot down. The vast majority of the targets the JCS wanted bombed were off-limits. If the enemy chickened out and ran to Laos or Cambodia, sorry. Chasing them was a no-no. You couldn't even fire at the enemy unless fired upon! (That is, assuming the enemy missed...) Moreover, 80-85% of the North Vietnamese war materials came from the Soviet Union. And most of the Soviet Union's supplies came from us. F'd up, indeed!

:)

Ok buddy. You know about it much more then many people here!

Because of my families views and my buddies views on that war, I don't hold it against Kerry too much.

I think some of the vet anger is because how that war was perceived, how they were treated, and here is a guy that was there who should know better.

I don't mind the other vets, speaking about Kerry because they view it that way.

I mind the "Swift Vets for Truth" saying they are not aligned and just want people to know the truth, when in fact they are aligned and make their case with one liner rather then laying out the events. Making generalised statements "We were there" when one or two happened to be a particular incident.

Do I consider Kerry a hero? Not really. A hero is a guy that runs through machine fire, picks up a fallen comrade and runs him back.

The attacks on Kerry are not simply "He is not a hero" which I could accept. They just a little too nasty.

Peace! ;)

:)

Ok buddy. You know about it much more then many people here!

Because of my families views and my buddies views on that war, I don't hold it against Kerry too much.

I think some of the vet anger is because how that war was perceived, how they were treated, and here is a guy that was there who should know better.

I don't mind the other vets, speaking about Kerry because they view it that way.

I mind the "Swift Vets for Truth" saying they are not aligned and just want people to know the truth, when in fact they are aligned and make their case with one liner rather then laying out the events. Making generalised statements "We were there" when one or two happened to be a particular incident.

Do I consider Kerry a hero? Not really. A hero is a guy that runs through machine fire, picks up a fallen comrade and runs him back.

The attacks on Kerry are not simply "He is not a hero" which I could accept. They just a little too nasty.

Peace! ;)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are always great fun to talk to because as of yet I have never seen you flame (wish I could say the same thing for a bunch of others...). Please give my regards to the vets you know.

Karl Rove is the Devil Incarnate.

He even bashes his own people.

In 2000, when he was suporting Bush's bid for the Nomination, South Carolina residents recieved the following call:

"Hi Im from an independant polling company, and we were wondering if you could spare some time and answer a question for us..?"

Unsuspecting Caller: "Uh..I guess so..."

Minion of evil : "Great. If you knew that John Mcain was a liar and a thief, and had fathered an illegitimate black child, would you be more likely to vote for him, or less likely to do so?"




This was an actual Push-poll designed by Karl Rove.

Against a member of his own party.
I know that Rove is the biggest scumbag in america--he also wanted to smear Jessica Lynch saying she one posed nude just because Lynch admitted that her"rescue" was staged by Rumsfeld.Rove also tried to have Joe Wilsons CIA wife assassinated too. My friend was telling me once a few months ago that these protesters once trashed Roves lawn in front of his house in DC? Im sorry I wasnt there myself I wouldve thrown bags of excrement at Roves house--did anyone else hear of this action?

did anyone else hear of this action?

Can't say that I have.

You'll all be happy to know it's being heavily reported this morning that none of these men actually served with John Kerry, it's a good old fashion smear campaign. In other words, it's a lie and bullshit at it's best. All the men who actually did serve with John Kerry are outraged at this lie trying to be sold to the American people. It seems their true beef is what Kerry said about Vietnam when he came home. Any way, bottom line they're lying, they never served with him.
everyone in this ad needs to be sued for Libel and have their medals taken away from them for dishonorably smearing another veteran

everyone in this ad needs to be sued for Libel and have their medals taken away from them for dishonorably smearing another veteran

Then Kerry should have his medals taken away, too, because he dishonorably smeared a LOT of veterans.

By the way, how old are you, anyway? Ten?
way not to flame, hypocrite

I guess I should have died in "nam" too. But I didn't. People like you make me sick. I don't think you've ever seen, let alone been a participant in combat. Kerry gave up his rights to call himself a hero when he came back and said the things he did. You could never understand how his statements hurt his fellow vets. The disgrace to America was when he stated that his fellow vets had comitted thousands of war crimes. Ask your "hero" about the crimes he committed, like killing an unarmed woman and her child.

If Kerry could sue for libel then couldn't Bush sue MoveOn and Soros. Soros is a loser who pumped millions of dollars in ads lying about Bush. Like comparing him to Hitler.

Kerry is no hero, after 3 questionable "wounds" he leaves his band of brothers after only 4 months in country to come back and defame us. You need to wake up and see the real world, hopefully you can grow up and become somewhat mature.

BTW How many MOH winners support Kerry?
Im not bashing veitnam vets and Im glad you didnt die there but the vets in this false ad should be court martialed for dishonorable conduct.ALso Kerry has just parroted statements that thousands of other heroic nam vets have said themselves and many nam vets agreed with kerrys statements about nam being an unjust war and that ugly things happen in every war--Bush would never know this though cause Bush got a chimp deferment from goin to nam and I dont think that effiminate pussy-lipped sissy karl Rove ever put on a uniform in his life either

way not to flame, hypocrite

I wasn't flaming I was asking a question. There's a difference. Anyway, you really need to cut out the flaming. If you flamed anymore than you did, I'd combust.

Im not bashing veitnam vets and Im glad you didnt die there but the vets in this false ad should be court martialed for dishonorable conduct.ALso Kerry has just parroted statements that thousands of other heroic nam vets have said themselves and many nam vets agreed with kerrys statements about nam being an unjust war and that ugly things happen in every war--Bush would never know this though cause Bush got a chimp deferment from goin to nam and I dont think that effiminate pussy-lipped sissy karl Rove ever put on a uniform in his life either

Aren't ALL wars unjust?

thats definately not the work of the bush administration, way too mature for them, they like to use ads with silyl accusations that people will believe because they dotn research and stuff like cartoon themes

Stuff like:



Commander-In-Chief George W. Bush loves puppy dogs and America. John 'Flip-floppicus' Kerry is an evil reptilian alien from the planet Zorgo who eats kittens and worships Satan while fundraising for the 'Americans for Jihad' group.

Who do you support to save America from the Satanic Muslims? A kitten eating monster from Zorgo or George W. Bush, a real American?

Yeah, understood, this wasn't the case here either, they are just bitter 'Nam vets who are pissed about what Kerry said about Vietnam when he came home. None of them where in any position to see what they are claiming to have seen. It was on CNN this morning.. one of the guys all but admitted that they are just pissed off about what he (Kerry) said when he got home.

It's a lie!
why is Bush refuses to condemn this ad? because Bush is a man who based his entire political career out of LYING himself

Kerry and McCain are a match made in hell. They're two sides of the same coin. They're as identical as Woodrow Wilson and Edward Mandell House were.
why do you say that?

why do you say that?

Why do I say what? That they're a match made in hell, or that they're two sides of the same coin?

By the way, thanks for asking nicely without flaming. Other people who are not even worth mentioning would have thrown out a million insults, called a bunch of names, would have bombarded me with immature sarcasm, and would have thrown a fit like a two-year-old. You, however, reacted maturely, for which you have my thanks and my respect.

Agreed. Kerry is arguably one of the greatest traitors in the history of the nation. No wonder the vast majority of Vietnam veterans hate that slimeball's guts.
so insted these veterans embrace an AWOL coward like Bush? Kerry is no traitor your just a brainwashed victim of rightwing lies and I think its sad that you think rich kids with political connections not having to serve in wars have a right to smear the war records of the poor kids who actually do all the fighting in wars

so insted these veterans embrace an AWOL coward like Bush? Kerry is no traitor your just a brainwashed victim of rightwing lies

Okay, since you flamed, I retract my previous statement. Yes, Kerry is a traitor. He gave moral aid to the enemy. He associated with communists like Jane Fonda. Later, he covered up evidence that POWs are still being held captive in Southeast Asia. Yes, Bush is an arch-traitor, too, but when it comes to treason, Kerry takes the cake.

Here we go: www.hanoijohnkerry.com

In addition to that, go to www.hanoijohnkerry.com/links.html

There, you'll find links to the following:

Beat Kerry 2004
Crush Kerry
Dirty Kerry
I Hate John Kerry
John F. Kerry Sucks
John F'n Kerry
John Kerry Truth
Kerry Lied
Kerry Quotes
No Kerry
No To Kerry
POW/MIA Families Against John Kerry
Protest Warrior -- (link to a special link page)
Saving Grace or Saving Face -- New HJK book site
Senator FlipFlop
Socialist Kerry
Swift Vets
Useful Fools
Vets Against Kerry
Vets Truth
Vietnam Special Forces Veterans Against Kerry
Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry
Wintersoldier.com
those are all rightwing hate links so they have no credability

those are all rightwing hate links so they have no credability

Well, since many of them were made by veterans, they certainly do have credibility.

Kinda like when Kerry returned and trashed his fellow vets....calling them murderers, racists, and every other name in the book?
do you have any evidence (besides hate links) that can prove this?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are always great fun to talk to because as of yet I have never seen you flame (wish I could say the same thing for a bunch of others...). Please give my regards to the vets you know.
did you also believe Bushs lies about McCain and Clelands war records too? or do you just believe in his smears against Kerry? what veitnam veteran will Bush smear next all because Bush is jealous that he doesnt have a war record of his own to run on?

Can't say that I have.
I wish protesters would hound Rove and his family on a daily basis until he makes reparations to all the people he slandered his whole life or at least make a public apology

Then Kerry should have his medals taken away, too, because he dishonorably smeared a LOT of veterans.
your overreacting based on bad information

did you also believe Bushs lies about McCain and Clelands war records too? or do you just believe in his smears against Kerry? what veitnam veteran will Bush smear next all because Bush is jealous that he doesnt have a war record of his own to run on?

I really doubt the Shrub is jelous of war records. Most like Poppy Bush made him join up.

Does he even fly anymore? Poppy Bush contined to fly after the war.....

The Shrub is a politician. If Joe nobody Nam vet was running against him, he would smear him as well.

The assertion that none of these swift boat veterans served with Kerry is not entirely true. While it is true that none of them served on the boat Kerry commanded, they did serve in the same unit. Since the boats often operated together, they would have been in a position to see some of what Kerry did. For instance, one of them was present at the incident where Kerry rescued that one guy (sorry, don't remember his name). He stated that one of the boats was hit by a mine, but contradicted Kerry's story that they were taking fire from the riverbanks. He also contradicted Kerry's version of the story that all the boats left and then Kerry returned. In this veteran's version, Kerry's was the only boat that left (and later returned), the other(s) remained in the immediate vicinity of the crippled boat. He was in a position above the deck of his boat with a clear view of what was happening, while the man Kerry rescued was bobbing in the water and couldn't have seen much of anything. Also, the skipper of his boat rescued two men in that incident, and was not recommended for decoration.

Also, the doctor who treated Kerry for the injury for which Kerry received his first Purple Heart stated that it was a very minor injury which most of the men would have shrugged off and never even thought of putting in for a Purple Heart. Let me reiterate: this is the doctor who treated the wound!

Aren't ALL wars unjust?
in a sense yes but in some cases theyre a tragic necessity--Veitnam war was about rubber. I think the last "just war" was WW2

Why do I say what? That they're a match made in hell, or that they're two sides of the same coin?

By the way, thanks for asking nicely without flaming. Other people who are not even worth mentioning would have thrown out a million insults, called a bunch of names, would have bombarded me with immature sarcasm, and would have thrown a fit like a two-year-old. You, however, reacted maturely, for which you have my thanks and my respect.
your welcome--I usually only flame in retaliation, unless someone gets me REAL mad

Okay, since you flamed, I retract my previous statement. Yes, Kerry is a traitor. He gave moral aid to the enemy. He associated with communists like Jane Fonda. Later, he covered up evidence that POWs are still being held captive in Southeast Asia. Yes, Bush is an arch-traitor, too, but when it comes to treason, Kerry takes the cake.
when did Kerry cover up evidence of POWS? thats totally out of character for Kerry to do something like that--why is Jane Fonda a communist? Cause she opposed a bad war? (also she apologized a billion times for her protest excesses and I forgive her cause her heart was in the right place)

Well, since many of them were made by veterans, they certainly do have credibility.
But theyre made by republican veterans so that means theyre based on lies

The assertion that none of these swift boat veterans served with Kerry is not entirely true. While it is true that none of them served on the boat Kerry commanded, they did serve in the same unit. Since the boats often operated together, they would have been in a position to see some of what Kerry did. For instance, one of them was present at the incident where Kerry rescued that one guy (sorry, don't remember his name). He stated that one of the boats was hit by a mine, but contradicted Kerry's story that they were taking fire from the riverbanks. He also contradicted Kerry's version of the story that all the boats left and then Kerry returned. In this veteran's version, Kerry's was the only boat that left (and later returned), the other(s) remained in the immediate vicinity of the crippled boat. He was in a position above the deck of his boat with a clear view of what was happening, while the man Kerry rescued was bobbing in the water and couldn't have seen much of anything. Also, the skipper of his boat rescued two men in that incident, and was not recommended for decoration.


Question then. Did the lodge complaints at the time. Usually, a guy claiming a combat wound when nothing happened was self inflicted.

Did the lodge complaints? Especially with the wounding rules and going home?


Also, the doctor who treated Kerry for the injury for which Kerry received his first Purple Heart stated that it was a very minor injury which most of the men would have shrugged off and never even thought of putting in for a Purple Heart. Let me reiterate: this is the doctor who treated the wound!

Doesn't mean much. Taking a round in the arm or shrapnel in the arm is different from he got a booboo. Shrugging it off does not explain the wound. One great-uncle has an ugly scar in his shoulder and he shrugs it off and says it was nothing.......

Finally, the rules said you can apply(correct me if I am wrong) for it if you want. Hannibal said it was easy. How many other guys did the same thing?

I really doubt the Shrub is jelous of war records. Most like Poppy Bush made him join up.

Does he even fly anymore? Poppy Bush contined to fly after the war.....

The Shrub is a politician. If Joe nobody Nam vet was running against him, he would smear him as well.
thats prolly true-all Bush has to run on is smears and fears

when did Kerry cover up evidence of POWS? thats totally out of character for Kerry to do something like that--why is Jane Fonda a communist? Cause she opposed a bad war? (also she apologized a billion times for her protest excesses and I forgive her cause her heart was in the right place)

There are many books on the subject. I'll go find a list. It might take a little while, though. As for Fonda, she admitted herself she was a communist. To which I say to her: :upyours: And like I said, I think ALL wars are bad. Her heart was not in the right place. Supporting the genocidal, totalitarian North Vietnamese butchers was abhorrent and unforgivable. To which I say to her again: :upyours:

The assertion that none of these swift boat veterans served with Kerry is not entirely true. While it is true that none of them served on the boat Kerry commanded, they did serve in the same unit. Since the boats often operated together, they would have been in a position to see some of what Kerry did. For instance, one of them was present at the incident where Kerry rescued that one guy (sorry, don't remember his name). He stated that one of the boats was hit by a mine, but contradicted Kerry's story that they were taking fire from the riverbanks. He also contradicted Kerry's version of the story that all the boats left and then Kerry returned. In this veteran's version, Kerry's was the only boat that left (and later returned), the other(s) remained in the immediate vicinity of the crippled boat. He was in a position above the deck of his boat with a clear view of what was happening, while the man Kerry rescued was bobbing in the water and couldn't have seen much of anything. Also, the skipper of his boat rescued two men in that incident, and was not recommended for decoration.

Also, the doctor who treated Kerry for the injury for which Kerry received his first Purple Heart stated that it was a very minor injury which most of the men would have shrugged off and never even thought of putting in for a Purple Heart. Let me reiterate: this is the doctor who treated the wound!
let me reiterate that this doctor never treated kerry at all for his wounds

God bless Senator McCain. Imagine being loyal enough to one's party to endorse its leading candidate, even after the kind of shit that the Bush campaign has put him through.

And by the way, how many limbs (Max Cleland) do you have to lose in Viet Nam before you're not a traitor for not being a Republican? The reason politics have become so polarized is because anybody with a healthy sense of decency and outrage feels an intense anger toward these despicable Republican tactics.

There are many books on the subject. I'll go find a list. It might take a little while, though. As for Fonda, she admitted herself she was a communist. To which I say to her: :upyours: And like I said, I think ALL wars are bad. Her heart was not in the right place. Supporting the genocidal, totalitarian North Vietnamese butchers was abhorrent and unforgivable. To which I say to her again: :upyours:
again I doubt kerry and Fonda would do or say such things-it sounds like youve been listening to the distortions and lies of rightwing hate addicts.

There are many books on the subject. I'll go find a list. It might take a little while, though. As for Fonda, she admitted herself she was a communist. To which I say to her: :upyours: And like I said, I think ALL wars are bad. Her heart was not in the right place. Supporting the genocidal, totalitarian North Vietnamese butchers was abhorrent and unforgivable. To which I say to her again: :upyours:

Hanoi Jane will never be forgiven and that is deserved.

She was slated for the 100 women of the century and got knocked off by some vets who complained.

The one startling story was from one guy who remembered her doing a publicity visit to a POW camp.

She walked up and down the lines shaking hands. Well the guy said they palmed her papers with their names and numbers on them figuring she was an american at least she can get word out they were captured.

She took everyone of them and promptly walked over to the commadant and handed them over.

The vet said a couple guys were beaten to death that night.

She is a traitor.

The assertion that none of these swift boat veterans served with Kerry is not entirely true. While it is true that none of them served on the boat Kerry commanded, they did serve in the same unit. Since the boats often operated together, they would have been in a position to see some of what Kerry did. For instance, one of them was present at the incident where Kerry rescued that one guy (sorry, don't remember his name). He stated that one of the boats was hit by a mine, but contradicted Kerry's story that they were taking fire from the riverbanks. He also contradicted Kerry's version of the story that all the boats left and then Kerry returned. In this veteran's version, Kerry's was the only boat that left (and later returned), the other(s) remained in the immediate vicinity of the crippled boat. He was in a position above the deck of his boat with a clear view of what was happening, while the man Kerry rescued was bobbing in the water and couldn't have seen much of anything. Also, the skipper of his boat rescued two men in that incident, and was not recommended for decoration.

Also, the doctor who treated Kerry for the injury for which Kerry received his first Purple Heart stated that it was a very minor injury which most of the men would have shrugged off and never even thought of putting in for a Purple Heart. Let me reiterate: this is the doctor who treated the wound!
Same guy who claims Kerry didn't do anything worthy of a medal in this situation also won a Bronze Star for his participation in the same action. Is he ready to give his back since if he's telling the truth, he obviously didn't earn his either?

God bless Senator McCain. Imagine being loyal enough to one's party to endorse its leading candidate, even after the kind of shit that the Bush campaign has put him through.

And by the way, how many limbs (Max Cleland) do you have to lose in Viet Nam before you're not a traitor for not being a Republican? The reason politics have become so polarized is because anybody with a healthy sense of decency and outrage feels an intense anger toward these despicable Republican tactics.
HAIL :cool:

Hanoi Jane will never be forgiven and that is deserved.

She was slated for the 100 women of the century and got knocked off by some vets who complained.

The one startling story was from one guy who remembered her doing a publicity visit to a POW camp.

She walked up and down the lines shaking hands. Well the guy said they palmed her papers with their names and numbers on them figuring she was an american at least she can get word out they were captured.

She took everyone of them and promptly walked over to the commadant and handed them over.

The vet said a couple guys were beaten to death that night.

She is a traitor.Oh I didnt know she did that--but she did say she was sorry tho

Question then. Did the lodge complaints at the time. Usually, a guy claiming a combat wound when nothing happened was self inflicted.

Did the lodge complaints? Especially with the wounding rules and going home?

I don't know if they lodged complaints. Probably not, as their sense of comraderie would probably overcome such petty complaints. I don't think the wound was self-inflicted and they probably didn't either. But that has nothing to do with my point that "none of these men ever served with Kerry" is incorrect. It also is irrelevant when assessing whether this man's account of the incident is just as credible as Kerry's. Combat is chaos, and different people always give different, even conflicting accounts. But putting all the stories together usually gives a fairly accurate picture of what really happened.



Doesn't mean much. Taking a round in the arm or shrapnel in the arm is different from he got a booboo. Shrugging it off does not explain the wound. One great-uncle has an ugly scar in his shoulder and he shrugs it off and says it was nothing.......

Finally, the rules said you can apply(correct me if I am wrong) for it if you want. Hannibal said it was easy. How many other guys did the same thing?

Kerry was certainly within his rights to put in for a Purple Heart. Some others did exactly the same thing. But most combat veterans will tell you that those who do this for wounds as minor as described by this doctor, are usually looked upon as something of a "weenie."

Same guy who claims Kerry didn't do anything worthy of a medal in this situation also won a Bronze Star for his participation in the same action. Is he ready to give his back since if he's telling the truth, he obviously didn't earn his either?

Illogical. Just because they were in the same action doesn't mean they did exactly the same things. It also doesn't mean that their differing actions were equally worthy of a particular decoration.

Illogical. Just because they were in the same action doesn't mean they did exactly the same things. It also doesn't mean that their differing actions were equally worthy of a particular decoration.Illogical my ass--they were in the same area of combat. The guy accusing Kerry of not doing anything was supposedly right there, in the same danger, in the same situation. Were bullets flying or weren't there? Were those men in danger or weren't they? It's hypocritical, and you know it--you're just too sold on the idea of Kerry as a traitor to be willing to even consider the possibility.

I think this pretty much sums it up:
http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/241f5d11b517c3/www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/jd040805.gif

Illogical my ass--they were in the same area of combat. The guy accusing Kerry of not doing anything was supposedly right there, in the same danger, in the same situation. Were bullets flying or weren't there? Were those men in danger or weren't they? It's hypocritical, and you know it--you're just too sold on the idea of Kerry as a traitor to be willing to even consider the possibility.

You need to take a logic course.

First: In the interview I saw, the interviewee never "accus[ed] Kerry of not doing anything." You may be speaking of an entirely different person. This assertion was also not in my post.

Second: Just because they were in the same area (how big is "the same area" anyway?) doesn't mean they were in identical circumstances. Clausewitz says, in his famous treatise "On War": "War is the province of chance." Chance circumstances are very fickle things indeed.

Third: I never said Kerry was a traitor. I don't think he is. Wherever did you get the idea that I am "sold" on that?

Hanoi Jane will never be forgiven and that is deserved.

She was slated for the 100 women of the century and got knocked off by some vets who complained.

The one startling story was from one guy who remembered her doing a publicity visit to a POW camp.

She walked up and down the lines shaking hands. Well the guy said they palmed her papers with their names and numbers on them figuring she was an american at least she can get word out they were captured.

She took everyone of them and promptly walked over to the commadant and handed them over.

The vet said a couple guys were beaten to death that night.

She is a traitor.

I wish she was publicly executed.

You need to take a logic course.

First: In the interview I saw, the interviewee never "accus[ed] Kerry of not doing anything." You may be speaking of an entirely different person. This assertion was also not in my post.

Second: Just because they were in the same area (how big is "the same area" anyway?) doesn't mean they were in identical circumstances. Clausewitz says, in his famous treatise "On War": "War is the province of chance." Chance circumstances are very fickle things indeed.

Third: I never said Kerry was a traitor. I don't think he is. Wherever did you get the idea that I am "sold" on that?
The interviewee I'm talking about is Larry Thurlow, who appeared on CNN yesterday and made the accusations that Kerry didn't deserve his medals and that he wasn't under fire at the time of Kerry's rescue of Rassman. Here's an article that disputes that version of events. (http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index2.html) It's from American History Magazine, an article written by noted historian Douglas Brinkley, and I'll quote the relevant sections.

Describing the river battle: Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-53 over by this time, and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was a shambles, but they were still shooting too hard to assess the damage. "Someone on the fantail must have noticed Jim swimming in back of us, ducking against the fire that was trying to pick him off because I suddenly heard the yell of 'man overboard' and looked back to see the bullets splashing in the water beside him," Kerry reported. "We turned around with the engines screaming against each other -- one full astern, the other full forward -- and then charged the several hundred yards back into the ambush where Jim was trying to find some cover. Everyone on board must have been firing without pause to keep the sniper heads down."

Kerry, thanking God the scramble nets were over the bow, struggled to get Rassman on board. "It must have looked like a comedy," he recalled. "Jim was exhausted from swimming and my right arm hurt and I couldn't pull very hard with it. Everyone else was firing a machine gun or something, except for Sandusky, who was maneuvering the boat, trying not to run over Jim but also trying to get near him as quickly as possible. Christ knows how, but somehow we got him on board and I didn't get the bullet in the head that I expected, and we managed to clear the ambush zone and move down near the 3 boat that was still crawling [on] a snail-like zigzag through the river."

Thurlow was struggling to get PCF-3's wounded gunner out of his hole and onto the deck when the damaged Swift ran aground hard on a shoal on the right side of the river, sending Thurlow somersaulting into the water. At the same moment, the five Swifts came under fire from the right side again, and Kerry remembered thinking that was it -- they were going to get completely cut off and annihilated in a crossfire. Spontaneously, however, every boat there stood its ground and filled the entire right bank of the river with .50-caliber, M-79, M-16 and any other firepower they had, while one of the Swifts moved in and retrieved Thurlow, who had picked himself up out of the mud. PCF-94 then moved in and attached a line to the damaged boat's stern to try to tow PCF-3 out, but the tether snapped. Kerry put another line on, and this one held. "We managed to get her clear of the kill zone," he exulted. Finally, the tumult subsided. "The wounded were transferred to another of the Swifts, which set off at full speed with a cover boat to take them out to the LST to be medevaced."

For at least part of the action, Thurlow was in no position to witness what Kerry did or did not do, so to argue that Kerry is undeserving or was not in danger is at least disingenuous. When I say they were in the same area, I'm going by these descriptions of the action, both by Kerry and Thurlow.

I'm sorry about saying you thought Kerry was a traitor--I must have mixed you up with some of the many others who are arguing that on this thread.

To continue--notice the difference between the American History article and what Thurlow said on CNN's Inside Politics (http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/05/ip.01.html) on August 5. This interview also included Jim Rassman, the man Kerry pulled from the water.
WOODRUFF: We've been reporting on the debate between Vietnam veterans for and against John Kerry. With me now, two central figures in this debate. Larry Thurlow, he's with me here in Washington. Like John Kerry, he commanded a swift boat in Vietnam. He appears in that anti-Kerry television ad that we showed you a little earlier.

In Eugene, Oregon, is Jim Rassmann. He served under John Kerry's command and he credits Kerry with saving his life. Rassmann, you may remember, spoke at last week's Democratic convention.

Larry Thurlow, I want to -- I want to begin with you. You essentially, as I understand it, you, too, won a Bronze Star, like John Kerry did. The incident in which John Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of -- out of the river...

LARRY THURLOW, APPEARS IN ANTI-KERRY AD: Yes? WOODRUFF: ... in Vietnam, Kerry says that this happened under enemy fire, that Rassmann had been knocked in the water, he went back and was the first to get to Rassmann and pulled him out of the water. You essentially said that's not what happened. What are you saying?

THURLOW: My recollection of that day is still pretty vivid after all these years. And what I remember, Judy, is that the incident involving Mr. Rassmann, five boats had come out of the river after running an operation up in the canal earlier that day. Three boats were going through a fishing weir on the left side of the river that had put in place between the time we entered and when we were leaving.

I'm the third boat in that column left. In the column right, there are two boats. The lead boat is John Kerry's.

He's going through a rather small opening on the right bank that (ph) had been left in his boat. The boat leading our column, as it goes through that small opening almost simultaneously, is blasted completely out of the water by a command detonated mine.

WOODRUFF: This is another boat?

THURLOW: This is a 3-boat (ph) -- this is on the opposite side of the river of John Kerry's boat. At this point, John Kerry speeds out of the area, I assume to clear the kill zone. The rest of the boats, however, went to the aid of the 3-boat (ph), which was completely disabled. Two members of that crew are in the water, the rest are badly wounded and basically incapacitated on board that boat.

WOODRUFF: You're basically saying he fled when there was...

(CROSSTALK)

THURLOW: I am saying he fled the area on the explosion under the 3-boat (ph).

WOODRUFF: All right. Well, before -- and let me ask Jim Rassmann about that part of the story before we ask what happened to him.

Jim Rassmann, what -- what do you say happened that day in March, 1969?

JIM RASSMANN, KERRY SUPPORTER: Well, first, I was not part of John Kerry's command. I was a Special Forces officer who happened to be on his boat at that time.

Mr. Thurlow's recollection of what occurred is not accurate. We had the boat hit the mine to our left. And John immediately had his driver, Del Sandusky (ph), turn to the left and head towards it.

And it was at that time that our gunner on the bow got his gun knocked out and he started screaming for another weapon. I ran another weapon up to me, and we hit something or something hit us. There was an explosion, and I was blown off the boat to the right.

WOODRUFF: And you ended up in the water how?

RASSMANN: I was blown into the water, and I had boats coming up behind me. So, I went to the bottom of the river.

WOODRUFF: Now, as I understand it, Larry Thurlow, you have a different version of how Jim Rassmann was in the water.

THURLOW: Yes, I do. My thought is that since no mine was detected on the other side of the river, no blast was seen, no noise heard, there's two things that are inconsistent with my memory.

Our boats immediately put automatic weapons fire on to the left bank just in case there was an ambush in conjunction with the mine. It soon became apparent there was no ambush.

The rescue efforts began on the 3-boat (ph). And at this time, the second boat in line, mine being the third boat on the left bank, began to do this.

Now, two members in this boat, keep in mind, are in the river at that time. They're picked up. The boat that picks them up starts toward Lieutenant Rassmann at this time, that's the 23-boat (ph). But before they get there, John does return and pick him up. But I distinctly remember we were under no fire from either bank.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, what about that? You hear Mr. Thurlow saying there was no enemy fire at that point.

RASSMANN: Mr. Thurlow is being disingenuous. I don't know what his motivation is, but I was receiving fire in the water every time I came up for air. I don't recall anybody being in the area around us until I came up maybe five or six times for air and Kerry came back to pick me up out of the water.

WOODRUFF: Disingenuous. He says you are being disingenuous in not recalling what happened.

THURLOW: Let me ask Mr. Rassmann this question: I also ended up in the water that day during the rescue efforts on the 3-boat (ph). And my boat, the 51-boat (ph), came up, picked me up, business as usual. I got back on board, went about the business at hand.

I received no fire. But the thing I would like to ask is, we have five boats now, John's returning, and four boats basically dead in the water, working on the 3-boat (ph). If we were receiving fire off the bank, how come not one single boat received one bullet hole, nobody was hit, no sign of any rounds hitting the water while I was in it?

WOODRUFF: What about that, Jim Rassmann, quickly?

RASSMANN: There were definitely rounds hitting the water around me. If Mr. Thurlow feels that what his story is purported to be was the case, he had ample opportunity 35 years ago to deal with it. He never did, nor did anyone else. John Kerry did not tell this story. I told this story when I put him in for a Silver Star for coming back to rescue me. The Navy saw fit to reduce it to a Bronze Star for valor.

That's OK with me. But If Mr. Thurlow had a problem with that, he should have dealt with it long, long ago. To bring it up now, I think, is very disingenuous. I think that this is partisan motivation on his part and for the part of his whole organization.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Thurlow, why didn't you bring this up earlier?

THURLOW: For one thing, I did not know that John had been put in for a Bronze Star, a Silver Star or, for that matter, a Purple Heart on that day. I did not see the after-action report, which, in fact, was written by John. And as the years went by, John was not running for the highest office in the free world.

WOODRUFF: What about Mr. Rassmann's point that he thinks you're doing this for partisan purposes?

THURLOW: Well, this is not true because, the fact of the matter is, I have not been active in any political party since I got out of the service. In fact, I basically turned my back on politics because of my experience in the service.

WOODRUFF: But this -- you feel strongly enough about this to be out?

THURLOW: I certainly do. My point is, is that John Kerry, because of the actions he's taken, and then the fantastic stories he made up about this, when many people beside myself know this not to be true, negates him being the leader he claims to be. And I would hate to have him be the commander-in-chief over my grandchildren.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, you want to respond to that?

RASSMANN: I sure do. I have two wonderful kids. They're very bright, they're compassionate people. I'm here today not just because John Kerry pulled me out of that water. I'm here today because if those two kids of mine were in the military, I would want John Kerry to be the commander-in-chief, not George Bush.

I think that Mr. Thurlow has a very unusual recollection of the events. I think that it's important to note that even today John McCain has come out and called this ad that they have produced dishonest and dishonorable. And I think I would have to agree with him.

WOODRUFF: Well, gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. Mr. Jim Rassmann, we thank you for joining us from Eugene, Oregon.

Larry Thurlow, we thank you for joining us here in Washington. We know you're from Kansas. We appreciate it.

And I have a sense we're going to continue to hear more about this story in the days and the weeks to come. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

Another reason why I'd vote for McCain. Next thing you know I'll be back to center.

IMHO, a McCain/Powell ticket would rock like there's no tomorrow. Then once the opponents bring up Powell's wife, they can claim the moral high ground and sweep it like there's no tomorrow!

I agree, Kerry should be criticised like all politicians that stick their neck out there, but outright lies are not a good standard for the Bush Administration to set.
I like McCain/Powell. Not enough that I'd vote for them, but it's a team I wouldn't mind losing to so much.

I like McCain/Powell. Not enough that I'd vote for them, but it's a team I wouldn't mind losing to so much.

Powell, I lost a lot of respect for with his dog-and-pony show at the UN. The Senate Report was especially harsh on the misrepresentations in that one, and I recently saw the leaked copy of the CIA evaluations of the rewrite of that presentation that noted that almost every single talking point of his proof was considered "weak". I'll try and dig that up again....

The fact that he was also directly involved in Iran-Contra is a black mark against him in my opinion too.

He may be the best of the current administration, but I think that there are better choices available.

Powell, I lost a lot of respect for with his dog-and-pony show at the UN. The Senate Report was especially harsh on the misrepresentations in that one, and I recently saw the leaked copy of the CIA evaluations of the rewrite of that presentation that noted that almost every single talking point of his proof was considered "weak". I'll try and dig that up again....

The fact that he was also directly involved in Iran-Contra is a black mark against him in my opinion too.

He may be the best of the current administration, but I think that there are better choices available.

Powell was involved in the Iran-Contra affair? I never knew that. Well, as the old cliche' goes, you learn something new everyday...

Powell, I lost a lot of respect for with his dog-and-pony show at the UN. That's true.
The fact that he was also directly involved in Iran-Contra is a black mark against him in my opinion too.
I was not aware of that.
He may be the best of the current administration, but I think that there are better choices available.
Mebe.

Powell was involved in the Iran-Contra affair? I never knew that. Well, as the old cliche' goes, you learn something new everyday...

Yep, Powell and his current deputy Armitage were both involved in Iran Contra. Powell was in the arms procurement end of things, and Armitage was one of those who "forgot" what was discussed in several meetings with Ollie North according to his testimoy at the time....

Just try googling: powell armitage iran contra : and enjoy the reading.

Yep, Powell and his current deputy Armitage were both involved in Iran Contra. Powell was in the arms procurement end of things, and Armitage was one of those who "forgot" what was discussed in several meetings with Ollie North according to his testimoy at the time....

Thanks! :)

Oh, and here is the copy of the CIA's comments while vetting Powell's speech at the UN that the LA Times got hold of:

http://images.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2004-07/13418408.pdf

The interviewee I'm talking about is Larry Thurlow, who appeared on CNN yesterday and made the accusations that Kerry didn't deserve his medals and that he wasn't under fire at the time of Kerry's rescue of Rassman.

For at least part of the action, Thurlow was in no position to witness what Kerry did or did not do, so to argue that Kerry is undeserving or was not in danger is at least disingenuous. When I say they were in the same area, I'm going by these descriptions of the action, both by Kerry and Thurlow.

The man I saw interviewed was not Larry Thurlow. After visiting SwiftVets.com and watching their ad, I can identify the man I saw interviewed as Van O'Dell. He was there and claims to have witnessed the events specific to Kerry's Bronze Star-winning actions. "John Kerry lied to get his bronze star ... I know, I was there, I saw what happened," is his line in the ad.

I hope you can see by all the conflicting accounts what I stated before: combat is chaos. It shrinks your awareness down to what is happening in your immediate vicinity; it distorts time. For instance, Thurlow's boat was on the left bank of the river and may not have been taking fire, while the disabled 3-boat was on the right bank and could have been receiving fire. Thurlow states no one was shooting at him when he went into the river, while Rassman states bullets were striking the water around him. Kerry states in the interview you quoted that he had proceeded "several hundred yards" down the river from where the 3-boat struck the mine. How long did it take him to get back? No one says. How far away, and in what direction, was Rassman from the 3-boat? No one says. Was the suppressing fire from the boats keeping enemy heads down, or was there no enemy at all, or a lone sniper? No one knows.

Anyway, I don't want to debate this ad naseum. My original post on this issue had to do with another poster who claimed "none of these men [Swift Boat Veterans for Truth]...served with Kerry." I hope you can see now that statement is patently false.

Who ever called McCain a pussy is a stupid dumbass. Having seen the commercial, I can say that it is the trashiest, worst political ad I have ever seen. It's a couple of guys who are likely dumbass Rebpublicans from Texas who couldn't stand to see little George get kicked out of the White House. They have a right to freedom of speech but the doctor was making assupmtions about Kerry's injuries, not giving facts. He pretty much said "They appeared to be self inflicted injuries", well you sir, seem to be a Ph.D (Pointless hick Doctor). See now I seem irrational but so do those stupid assumptions he made. The odd thing is the high number of vets coming out saying he saved their lives and then this small group coming out a saying how he was a traitor. Well in a democracy we trust the majority (although not in the 2000 Federal Election because Gore had more votes than Bush) and this case will be no different. I believe the commcercials should be pulled from the air. Even Bush wouldn't run this slimy of an ad and he's Bush.

Who ever called McCain a pussy is a stupid dumbass. Having seen the commercial, I can say that it is the trashiest, worst political ad I have ever seen. It's a couple of guys who are likely dumbass Rebpublicans from Texas who couldn't stand to see little George get kicked out of the White House. They have a right to freedom of speech but the doctor was making assupmtions about Kerry's injuries, not giving facts. He pretty much said "They appeared to be self inflicted injuries", well you sir, seem to be a Ph.D (Pointless hick Doctor). See now I seem irrational but so do those stupid assumptions he made. The odd thing is the high number of vets coming out saying he saved their lives and then this small group coming out a saying how he was a traitor. Well in a democracy we trust the majority (although not in the 2000 Federal Election because Gore had more votes than Bush) and this case will be no different. I believe the commcercials should be pulled from the air. Even Bush wouldn't run this slimy of an ad and he's Bush.

Nowhere in the ad does the doctor claim that Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted. "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury," is his line in the ad, verbatim (not "pretty much said").

A U.S. Navy medical officer holding the rank of Lieutenant Commander is an M.D., not a Ph.D.

There are 189 members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "consisting of, and limited to, former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy 'Swift Boats' or in affiliated commands." (From the group's Section 527 charter, an IRS document.) How many does Kerry have on his side, about a dozen? I don't know where you went to school, but on planet Earth this does not equate to a "high number of vets coming out saying he saved their lives and then this small group coming out a saying how he was a traitor." Oh, and the word "traitor" never appears in the ad either.

Yes, you certainly seem irrational. You can obtain a rabies vaccine at your local hospital.

Powell, I lost a lot of respect for with his dog-and-pony show at the UN. The Senate Report was especially harsh on the misrepresentations in that one, and I recently saw the leaked copy of the CIA evaluations of the rewrite of that presentation that noted that almost every single talking point of his proof was considered "weak". I'll try and dig that up again....

The fact that he was also directly involved in Iran-Contra is a black mark against him in my opinion too.

He may be the best of the current administration, but I think that there are better choices available.
I agree--Im sick of Powell always trying to pass himself off as the voice of reason in the Bush administration when push comes to shove hes just a spineless sellout who just follows orders.

Nowhere in the ad does the doctor claim that Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted. "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury," is his line in the ad, verbatim (not "pretty much said").

A U.S. Navy medical officer holding the rank of Lieutenant Commander is an M.D., not a Ph.D.

There are 189 members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "consisting of, and limited to, former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy 'Swift Boats' or in affiliated commands." (From the group's Section 527 charter, an IRS document.) How many does Kerry have on his side, about a dozen? I don't know where you went to school, but on planet Earth this does not equate to a "high number of vets coming out saying he saved their lives and then this small group coming out a saying how he was a traitor." Oh, and the word "traitor" never appears in the ad either.

Yes, you certainly seem irrational. You can obtain a rabies vaccine at your local hospital.


A question. How do people who "who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy 'Swift Boats' or in affiliated commands" have a better understanding of what went on on Kerry's boat than his crew? And what exactly constitutes "affiliated command?" Anyone in the Navy?

Because the "about a dozen" on Kerry's side are those who actually served with him on the water in the boat.

That rather gives more credence to their backing up his story than anyone else on that list.

Roach, I have to ask you something. Do you really think McCain and Kerry are so similar? Aside from the fact that they are both Vietnam veterans, can you tell me what makes them similar?

For months during the speculation as to whether McCain might be the Vice-Presidential candidate there were tons of articles written in papers about how McCain has some very conservative stances. I would say the two differ on most every issue. Where do you see similarities? I'm very curious because I was unsure of how I felt about him being a vice presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket.

Oh, and please look more deeply into the whole Hanoi Jane thing. You might find enough evidence there to convince you that there are no connections between her and Kerry. I would truly like to see one member of the right wing look at this seriously and make an honest assessment of the whole matter. I feel pretty confident that if you find yourself to be in error, you'll admit it and perhaps even help dispell that myth amongst your fellow members of the right.

A question. How do people who "who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy 'Swift Boats' or in affiliated commands" have a better understanding of what went on on Kerry's boat than his crew? And what exactly constitutes "affiliated command?" Anyone in the Navy?

Because the "about a dozen" on Kerry's side are those who actually served with him on the water in the boat.

That rather gives more credence to their backing up his story than anyone else on that list.

Some of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth WERE THERE! WTF, do I have to go through all this AGAIN? Go back and read my previous posts on this thread, and you will see that "those guys never served with Kerry" is a FALSE statement.

Some of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth WERE THERE! WTF, do I have to go through all this AGAIN? Go back and read my previous posts on this thread, and you will see that "those guys never served with Kerry" is a FALSE statement.
how many were on kerrys boat

Some of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth WERE THERE! WTF, do I have to go through all this AGAIN? Go back and read my previous posts on this thread, and you will see that "those guys never served with Kerry" is a FALSE statement.

Some? But not all?

So the rest are just going on hearsay to smear a guy they never served with? How many of your numerically superior group make up that segment? I'll tell you one for sure - that ex-bagman of Nixon named O'neil who is the leader of this group and only showed up in Vietnam two months AFTER Kerry left.

But I guess you don't mind calling Rassmann and all of Kerry's crew liars to though right? Because that is what you have to assume if you want to buy the story that this group is pedalling.

As long as you can get it to stick to Kerry who cares who you smear by association.....

Vote Kerry 04

McCain is a guy I would vote for....

The group that is making the claims is a PAC so the "truth" may not be what is guiding them.....

I would also love to see McCain as pres. Unfortunately, the Republican't(s) tore him to shreds in the 2000 primaries

how many were on kerrys boat

One.

Others served in the same boat squadron, operating alongside Kerry on a daily basis. Just because they weren't on the same boat doesn't mean they didn't see Kerry in action constantly. In fact, these boats rarely operated singly.

Some? But not all?

So the rest are just going on hearsay to smear a guy they never served with? How many of your numerically superior group make up that segment? I'll tell you one for sure - that ex-bagman of Nixon named O'neil who is the leader of this group and only showed up in Vietnam two months AFTER Kerry left.

But I guess you don't mind calling Rassmann and all of Kerry's crew liars to though right? Because that is what you have to assume if you want to buy the story that this group is pedalling.

As long as you can get it to stick to Kerry who cares who you smear by association.....

When I said they "were there", I was speaking specifically of the incident in which Kerry rescued Rassman. So it is not necessarily true that the others would have to be going on hearsay. They could have operated alongside Kerry on other occasions. Look, these boats operate as squadrons, rarely alone. The pairings of boats on any single mission changes constantly. Given the number of boats in a squadron, and the number of associated commands (supply, medical, administrative, etc. - People who would have the chance to work with Kerry when he wasn't in the field.) and the number of crew members on each boat, it is very possible that ALL of the men in Swift Boat Vets for Truth worked personally with Kerry, to varying degrees.

If it's possible, Galtania, then why haven't all the members of Swift Boat Veterans Against the Truth come out and proven that they all worked closely with Kerry? It's not like they haven't had the chance--these charges have been made against them since they first made their charges.

If it's possible, Galtania, then why haven't all the members of Swift Boat Veterans Against the Truth come out and proven that they all worked closely with Kerry? It's not like they haven't had the chance--these charges have been made against them since they first made their charges.

How the hell should I know? Ask them! :headbang:

Oh, and I see you're changing things. I said they could have worked "personally...to varying degrees" with Kerry. You have conveniently changed that to "closely." Nice try at setting up an out to information you may not like. Not to mention the cynical and simple ploy of changing the group's name.

I'm not a reporter--but reporters have asked them and they've conveniently not replied or made up some bullshit story as to how they came by their information. And in my book, working personally with someone is synonymous with working closely with that person. Sorry if you don't agree.

And considering that a number of the people behind this group have had issues with the truth for as long as 30 years, I don't find it cynical in the least that I changed the name of the group--so far, two members have recanted their stories and one of the leaders of the group--O'Neill--was a liar and a member of Nixon's dirty tricks squad back in 1971. Why the hell should I believe anything he has to say now?

If it's possible, Galtania, then why haven't all the members of Swift Boat Veterans Against the Truth come out and proven that they all worked closely with Kerry? It's not like they haven't had the chance--these charges have been made against them since they first made their charges.


I'm going to take a shot in the dark.. umm, because they're lying?

in a sense yes but in some cases theyre a tragic necessity--Veitnam war was about rubber. I think the last "just war" was WW2


Korea was, considering what North Korea and Mao's China were like.

The war in Yugoslavia had good intentions, maybe even the Gulf War, despite the fact that it was caused by Bush Sr. backstabbing a horrible dictator to save another horrible dictator.

I'm not a reporter--but reporters have asked them and they've conveniently not replied or made up some bullshit story as to how they came by their information. And in my book, working personally with someone is synonymous with working closely with that person. Sorry if you don't agree.

And considering that a number of the people behind this group have had issues with the truth for as long as 30 years, I don't find it cynical in the least that I changed the name of the group--so far, two members have recanted their stories and one of the leaders of the group--O'Neill--was a liar and a member of Nixon's dirty tricks squad back in 1971. Why the hell should I believe anything he has to say now?

And one of the funders/organizers of this group - Merrie Spaeth (you will find her noted as their media contact on the website) - is an ex-memeber of the Reagan White House staff who ran for Leutenant governer of Texas with Bush in '94, and also worked closely with Ken Starr during his witchhunt. She is also connected to Theodore Olson, who was counsel to the right-wing American Spectator when it acted as a front for the dirty-tricks campaign against Clinton known as the Arkansas Project. He happens to be the godfather of Spaeth's daughter and reportedly got her the gig with Ken Starr. She was also connected with the bogus "Republicans for Clean Air" group that produced television ads falsely attacking the environmental record of Sen. John McCain in California, New York and Ohio during his Presidential bid.


Oh yeah.... she sure comes off as an impartial and credible backer ....

:rolleyes:

And yet, because most newscasts don't bring any of this up, don't mention any of these connections, and don't even bother to question the factual accuracy of any of these claims, the story gets repeated and saps believe it.

That's one reason I love http://dailyhowler.com -- Bob Somerby kicks the media's ass daily, no matter who they're defending or attacking. He jumps their shit for crappy journalism. And for political stuff, http://campaigndesk.org is really good for sniffing out partisan crap from both sides. That's done by the Columbia Journalism Review, and they're pretty damn balanced.

vote 4 kerry :gundge: