NationStates Jolt Archive

Looking at both issues from a Biblical worldview there is no contradiction between the positions that I take, and many others as well, on the issues of abortion and the death penalty.

The key verse that makes my point in the following passage is verse 6,
Genesis 9:5-7
5 "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

But Jesus was all about love, compassion, and peace right? Jesus is the Prince of Peace when it comes to men's hearts, but not world peace in general. Sure, if everyone on this earth accepted Christ's teachings then this would be a peaceful earth but that will never happen. There will always be those who harden their hearts against Him.

Luke 12:51-53
51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three."
53 "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

The very figure of Christ is controversial, I mean look at all the debate we have on who He is, what He stands for, and what He did. Division indeed!

Christ never mentioned that death should not be the punishment for murder, in fact He endorsed it,
Matthew 5:21
You have heard that the ancients were told, you shall not commit murder, and whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.

But what about the time that the Pharisees brought an adulterous woman to Jesus,

John 8:4-7
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

First of all the woman had not committed murder. Second, where was the man in this case, according to Jewish law the man is liable to be stoned to death as well. Thirdly, the Pharisees were not seeking judgement on the woman, they were hoping to catch Jesus in a trap. Jesus had compassion on the woman because of what she was caught up in, a plan to catch Him going against the law.

What is your position in breif?

I am both pro-life and a supporter of the death penalty.

<<Supporter of the death penalty

Ooh! I'm trying very hard not to shout at my computer screen!

Firstly, what of our readers who aren't christian? you provide the biblical backing for the death penalty, well done, there are many textbooks I can find that in. Jews and Muslims can also use similar texts, and that is all good and well, if you are:
1. Religeous
2. In favour of killing people

The fatal flaw in your argument however, is the lack of any thought.

Firstly, you fail to address your title. Where in the bible does it say that the soul is bestowed upon man at the point of conception? Adam was created from dust, in the image of God its self. He obviously had a soul, that part of Adam which was Godlike is what I define as his soul.

I agree that killing an innocent is a sin, but I disagree that abortion is murder. It is killing, but not murder. Is killing a tic murder? It'll die if you rip it out of you . Tics don't have souls of course, so that can't be murder. Likewise a collection of human cells, unborn and soul-less can be removed blamelessly.

Now, the logic behind the righteousness of executing someone is unaddressed. I have to get back to my work right now, and must hope that someone can take up this argument to highlight just how wrong you are. I'll be back in an hour or two.

I am both pro-life and a supporter of the death penalty.
I've never really thought of that as inherantly being a contradiction. It strikes me that its about guilt and innocence (an innocent child being worthy of protection, a convicted criminal not). Its wrong, obviously, but I don't think its a contradiction.

A baby is a parasite in the womb. Prove me the defination of a parasite and i'll show you the actions of a fetus.

A Biblical reason why abortion is wrong. Psalm 139, Key Verses 13-16

1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,"
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.
19 O that You would slay the wicked, O God;
Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.

What right to do we as humans have to stop the brain waves, and heart beats of millions of lives that the Lord has planned before they were even formed in the womb. Simply because the baby was was not planned, or inconvenient, or because you would have to shop for huge jars of mayonaisse(spelling?) at CostCo as one New York Times op-ed writer put it so eloquently. How sickening.

A Biblical reason why abortion is wrong. Key Verses 13-16

[snip]

What right to do we as humans have to stop the brain waves, and heart beats of millions of lives that the Lord has planned before they were even formed in the womb. Simply because the baby was was not planned, or inconvenient, or because you would have to shop for huge jars of mayonaisse(spelling?) at CostCo as one New York Times op-ed writer put it so eloquently. How sickening.

okay so you've convinced the christians, if thats all you going to do, can the rest of us just ignore you now?

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:19-21

It isn't our place to exact vengeance on people... if people have done wrong, the Lord will do that job. I'm pro-life all the way around: giving in to capital punishment is evil: killing the guilty is just as morally wrong as killing the innocent.

He gave us free will, didn't he?

On an off-note, what is your position on stem-cell research? Those are fetuses, but they're not "born" as such. They're "test-tube" babies. Do those fetuses have souls, too? Were they planned by God?

Just my $.02.

okay so you've convinced the christians, if thats all you going to do, can the rest of us just ignore you now?
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm simply stating my case that there is no contradiction for any Christian who stands for pro-life and also supports the death penalty as some have charged in this forum.

It isn't our place to exact vengeance on people... if people have done wrong, the Lord will do that job. I'm pro-life all the way around: giving in to capital punishment is evil: killing the guilty is just as morally wrong as killing the innocent.

God uses man for His purposes. God used the Assyrians and the Babylonians even though they did not acknowledge Him to exact punishment on Israel and Judah respectively. I think the passage in Romans is referring to one man taking vengeance on another for a wrong done to him. It does not contradict what Jesus said in Matthew 5:21 quoted above in my original post in this thread. In Matthew 5:21, the murderer is to be handed over to the court/government.

A Biblical reason why abortion is wrong. Psalm 139, Key Verses 13-16

What right to do we as humans have to stop the brain waves, and heart beats of millions of lives that the Lord has planned before they were even formed in the womb.

If god planned it to live why didnt it?
And the bible has absolutely no say in legislative processes, so its useless to argue upon the scripture.
Besides the laws are for everyone, not only those following your belief.

I am pro-choice but am not in favor of the death penalty. I belive this because:

1) If you dont like abortion, dont have one, secondly i think that a child is a child only when it is viable outside the womb.

2) I do not like the death penalty because if an innocent person is killed (which happens) it isn't worth it. because i think its unforgivable. I only support the death penalty in extreme cases.

God uses man for His purposes. God used the Assyrians and the Babylonians even though they did not acknowledge Him to exact punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

Those weren't exactly the "good guys" in those stories who God was using to wreak his will. If God uses the enemies of His people to exact vengeance on his own people, then what does it mean when we start exacting vengeance? Are we Assyrians or Babylonians?

I think the passage in Romans is referring to one man taking vengeance on another for a wrong done to him not contradicting what Jesus said in Matthew 5:21 quoted above in my original post in this thread.

When we punish people for crimes by putting them to death, we are taking vengeance on another for a wrong. Abortions put fetuses to death without their having committed a wrong. So while it's not exactly a "contradiction" to be pro-life and pro-death penalty (because there is a slight difference), it's still picking and choosing to support one side of an ethical argument while denying the other.

Hosea 9:14:

"Give them, O LORD -
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry."

You'll be glad to know that God said "OK" and induced abortions left right and centre all over the people of Ephraim. Funny old book, the Bible -- best not to take it too seriously, though.

If god planned it to live why didnt it?


Because man intervened and decided that the life in the womb should be stopped.

Let me make this clear, I am not trying to debate the merits of the death penalty and abortion in this thread. I am trying to say that there is no contradiction for any Christian who believes in the death penalty and takes a pro-life stance on abortion. If you want to debate the scripture, thats fine.

If you want to debate the merits of abortion or the death penalty, there are plenty of other threads for that, or you can start a new one.

Hosea 9:14:

"Give them, O LORD -
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry."

You'll be glad to know that God said "OK" and induced abortions left right and centre all over the people of Ephraim. Funny old book, the Bible -- best not to take it too seriously, though.

The passage that you quote is a punishment on the sins of the tribe of Ephraim. It is not what you claim, that God would randomly perform abortions.

Hosea 9:14:

"Give them, O LORD -
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry."

You'll be glad to know that God said "OK" and induced abortions left right and centre all over the people of Ephraim. Funny old book, the Bible -- best not to take it too seriously, though.

That was God cursing the people for being disloyal, not "helping them out."

Your phrases from the Bible do not endorse man usurping God's place as the decision maker of who lives and who dies. And I'm sure anyone willing to take the time could find an equal amount of passages contradicting what you believe yours to say.

The bottom line is still this: it is not man's place to make such decisions. Therein lies the contradiction.

Your phrases from the Bible do not endorse man usurping God's place as the decision maker of who lives and who dies.

As I quoted in my first post in this thread,

Genesis 9:6
Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

The bottom line is still this: it is not man's place to make such decisions. Therein lies the contradiction.

Yes. First we start making decisions like this, and next He sends the Babylonians and Assyrians after us. :)

Yes. First we start making decisions like this, and next He sends the Babylonians and Assyrians after us. :)

I hope that was a joke, because if it is not, you're taking all of what I said about the punishment on Israel and Judah out of context.

Genesis 9:6
Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Traditionally, the New Testament has been used to supercede the Old, at least in terms of this kind of argument (not that it's not still important). Otherwise, why do Christians not obey the 613 or so Mitzvot?

I hope that was a joke, because if it is not, you're taking all of what I said about the punishment on Israel and Judah out of context.

Oh yeah, it was totally a joke. Didn't want to take myself too seriously.

Traditionally, the New Testament has been used to supercede the Old, at least in terms of this kind of argument (not that it's not still important). Otherwise, why do Christians not obey the 613 or so Mitzvot?

The Bible, the Old and New Testaments are co-equals. They are two sides to a coin. The Old presenting the failed state of humanity, and the New presenting the solution.

Galatians 2:16-21 Key Verse, v. 21
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

It would probably be best if you read the entire letter of Galatians to fully understand why Christians do not follow the law for salvation.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Galatians+1

A Biblical reason why abortion is wrong. Psalm 139, Key Verses 13-16

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.



Ummm ... that's a Psalm ... a poem ... a song .... it is not law. Try something else.

Ummm ... that's a Psalm ... a poem ... a song .... it is not law. Try something else.

But that does not mean it is not truth.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 Key Verse, v. 16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The passage that you quote is a punishment on the sins of the tribe of Ephraim. It is not what you claim, that God would randomly perform abortions.

I didn't claim that it was random, nor did I claim that God was "helping out" the tribe of Ephraim. I was just pointing out that God didn't seem to have much of an issue with killing the innocent unborn when he felt like it.

yeah thats true but many also support war to. It depends really one could argue that the new testament and christ lead you to pro life, anti death penalty, anti war stance and that the old testament leads you to support death penalty and war so it is then wrong for one who claims to be a christian and believe in the new testament perhaps to support the death penalty and war. I'm not a warmonger I'm not a big war supporter nor do I really speak out on or oppose it really I just don't bother not much I can do about it but I'll tell you this much I refuse to have blood on my hands ever. I don't support abortion or the death penalty- except in rare cases I support death penalty, very rare and even then I am a bit reluctant

Yes. First we start making decisions like this, and next He sends the Babylonians and Assyrians after us. :)

OK, that was the best laugh I've had all day.

So you're "pro-life"...
Somehow you manage to justify the very un-Christian concept of the Death Penalty - and hope to see four more years of Bush.

What about the obscenely under-reported use of Depleted Uranium (DU) in armaments being sold/used in every increasing numbers? We KNOW they cause horrifying birth defects, miscarriages, and misery on innocent children as well as adults.


How does one reconcile Christian faith and support for the fetus with a vote for a candidate who let's face it, will personally profit from the promotion of war, especially the use of DU weapons (Bush Sr. - Carlyle Group - inheritance).

I could never place my faith or my vote with zillionaire executioner and oil/weapons baron wearing his flag and cross on his sleeve, claiming to be a humble brother in faith.

Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits.