NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm sure you all know the situation and if you don't then pick up a book (preferable a history one) I personally think that the US and all other nations with trade sanctions against Cuba should just forget about trying to kill all the commies and help the situation over there. I think Cuba woulda been a good example of a Communist government properly functioning if it wasn't used as a puppet by the Soviet Union and if it didn't have trade sanctions coming out of it's anus. So as my buddy Adam said to my math teacher when he said, "you do your work, no discussion".... well lets discuss this

It was the U.S. government that helped put the communists in control of Cuba. But don't take my word for it; read 'Cuba Betrayed' by Fulgencio Batista, who Castro overthrew; and 'The Fourth Floor,' by Earl E.T. Smith, who was ambassador to Cuba at the time and witnessed the betrayal firsthand. Another good source is 'Red Star Over Cuba.' (Unfortunately, the author's name escapes me at the moment)

I'm sure the sanctions will end once Castro is dead. The old guerilla is ready to croak any year now, not the decades he's been blessed with.

I don't know what the situation in Cuba is, but I highly doubt that Cuba is currently a Communist society. I think they are at most a Totalitarian Socialism if not just flat totalitarian.

Second, trade sanctions only cause more suffering and more dictatorships.

The sanctions against Cuba are in my opinion just plain stupid.

Open up trade and travel and the island will be a hopping Capitalism in no time!!!

Well, the trade sanctions have done more to strengthen Castro than to harm him politically, so if the goal is to get rid of him, then maybe we ought to try what we haven't tried for the last what, 40 years or so?

But the thing that's gonna bite Bush on the ass is the new travel restrictions he's put on Cuba. The Cubans in Florida always vote Republican in overwhelming numbers (like 85%), but this has really pissed them off, and if Kerry's able to cut into that by even 10 to 20%, that could be the margin in Florida in 2004.

Personally, I think that the most pervasive and underhanded thing the U.S. could do to undermine the communist regime in Cuba is to expose them to U.S. goods and services. Things like Spray Cheese, edible panties and McDonald's have done more to cause the fall of Communism than any national policy we could make.

Look what happened to the Soviet Union after they got a McDonald's! They didn't even last five years. :D

The economic sanctions against Cuba have been one of the stupidest foreign policies we've had. Instead of weakening Castro (especially in the aftermath of 89-91), the sanctions actually give him strength. Plus, they damage US economic interests by allowing Canadian and European businesses a toehold while keeping out US businesses.

How strange of you all to ignore the massive successes of the Communist Government - The free education for all, the mass vaccinations, the free healthcare. Castro is a God in Cuba - among pretty much all the poor people (about 80% of the populace).

Castro is a God in Cuba - among pretty much all the poor people (about 80% of the populace).

One of the reasons Castro is a god there, and in many other countries, is that he can popint to his defiance of the Yanquis. If we had taken that away from him by not placing sanctions, he would likely have gone the way of most of the other communist dictatorships.

(And one wonders about how good a system is that can keep 80% of the populace in poverty.)

It was the U.S. government that helped put the communists in control of Cuba. But don't take my word for it; read 'Cuba Betrayed' by Fulgencio Batista, who Castro overthrew; and 'The Fourth Floor,' by Earl E.T. Smith, who was ambassador to Cuba at the time and witnessed the betrayal firsthand. Another good source is 'Red Star Over Cuba.' (Unfortunately, the author's name escapes me at the moment)

Considering what a loon Batista was, and he was also a murderer far worse then Castro, I'm not too inclined to believe his book on the Revolution. Would he do anythiing other then try to discredit the men who threw him out of power, or the government that did nothing to help him.

I can't believe there are actually people on these forums who support Batista. Thats really ignorant.

I'm sure the sanctions will end once Castro is dead. The old guerilla is ready to croak any year now, not the decades he's been blessed with.

Bingo. Castro dies, no more sanctions.

There's actually several betting pots going on what year he will die. He's outlived most of them so far.

Considering what a loon Batista was, and he was also a murderer far worse then Castro, I'm not too inclined to believe his book on the Revolution. Would he do anythiing other then try to discredit the men who threw him out of power, or the government that did nothing to help him.

Relying on Batista is indeed suspect. However, Eisenhower did declare an arms embargo against the Batista government, which certainly helped Castro.

I don't think anyone here supports Batista, he simply read a book by him, and if you actually research into some of the authors Roach Busters has quoted, you may notice they produce books that show deep conspiracies behind the world, a large number of them also have suspicious motives and are generally discredited.

Things like Spray Cheese, edible panties and McDonald's have done more to cause the fall of Communism than any national policy we could make.

Yes, I can imagine what one would say when they first hear of such things:

"Ah, fuck the proletariat, I want to eat my wife's knickers!

Well, the trade sanctions have done more to strengthen Castro than to harm him politically, so if the goal is to get rid of him, then maybe we ought to try what we haven't tried for the last what, 40 years or so?

But the thing that's gonna bite Bush on the ass is the new travel restrictions he's put on Cuba. The Cubans in Florida always vote Republican in overwhelming numbers (like 85%), but this has really pissed them off, and if Kerry's able to cut into that by even 10 to 20%, that could be the margin in Florida in
2004.

Actually, they vote Democrat in heavy numbers. They voted for Bush 2000 because of the Elian Gonzales incident.

The old guerilla is ready to croak any year now, not the decades he's been blessed with.

That's what our family has been basically saying about my grandmother for the last 15 years. She is 95 now and shows no signs of dying soon despite her spiteful nature, lack of exercise and poor diet.

Castro is now 75. I don't know what his health is like but he could very well live until he is 100. During that time, science may find a way of eliminating death or at least prolongling life so that you can live for hundreds of years. In addition to the development of molecular nanotechnology, Castro could be leader for all eternity!

In short, to live for a long time all you need to do is be a bastard or a bitch and have good genes.

While I fully support the right of a country to limit trade for any reason, I think the sanctions against Cuba are(as well as the UN ones against Iraq were) at best illconceived and at worst strengthening the person they were supposed to weaken. Not to mention the untold suffering caused to the populations of both countries.

Actually, they vote Democrat in heavy numbers. They voted for Bush 2000 because of the Elian Gonzales incident.
Which is funny because the administration was right in sending Elian back.

One of the reasons Castro is a god there, and in many other countries, is that he can popint to his defiance of the Yanquis. If we had taken that away from him by not placing sanctions, he would likely have gone the way of most of the other communist dictatorships.

(And one wonders about how good a system is that can keep 80% of the populace in poverty.)


Ummm - why are the people in poverty? Gee - do you think that the aforementioned trade sanctions might just play a role?

Which is funny because the administration was right in sending Elian back.

Well, they did not see it that way and it caused them to turn out heavily for Bush in 2000. One of the arguments that Gore had was that the Cuban numbers HAD to be wrong because they NEVER vote for Republicans. That time they did and it very well cost Gore the election. The Cubans down here are so anti Castro they almost foam at the mouth when his name is mentioned. What many who are not from here fail to realize is that the majority of the successful Cubans here were the supporters of Batista. I do business with several of them and they are so wealthy it is not even funny. I go diving with one who owns a 5 bedroom, 3 level, 85 foot ship with his own dive shop and crew on board. it is simply amazing. Of course he was a supporter of Batista and thats how he made his money.

Actually, they vote Democrat in heavy numbers. They voted for Bush 2000 because of the Elian Gonzales incident.Wow. Biff--just when I thought you couldn't be any more ignorant of the facts, you go and pull this one out of your ass. The Cuban-American vote in south Florida is as sure a thing for the Republican party as exists in US politics. They always vote overwhelmingly Republican. They vote so Republican that the Congressman from the district who represents them--Diaz-Balart (R)--is running unopposed this year. Why? Because he'd win 85% of the vote without breaking a sweat.

Hispanics as a group largely vote with the Democratic party--with one exception: Cuban-Americans in south Florida.

Wow. Biff--just when I thought you couldn't be any more ignorant of the facts, you go and pull this one out of your ass. The Cuban-American vote in south Florida is as sure a thing for the Republican party as exists in US politics. They always vote overwhelmingly Republican. They vote so Republican that the Congressman from the district who represents them--Diaz-Balart (R)--is running unopposed this year. Why? Because he'd win 85% of the vote without breaking a sweat.

Hispanics as a group largely vote with the Democratic party--with one exception: Cuban-Americans in south Florida.

Actually thats not entirely true....the poorer of the Cuban population in Miami does vote Democratic in large numbers due to the social services the Dems offer. One thing they WILL do is vote for one of their own regardless of party affiliation. Try running down there as an Anglo and see how well you do, regardless of party.

Wow. Biff--just when I thought you couldn't be any more ignorant of the facts, you go and pull this one out of your ass. The Cuban-American vote in south Florida is as sure a thing for the Republican party as exists in US politics. They always vote overwhelmingly Republican. They vote so Republican that the Congressman from the district who represents them--Diaz-Balart (R)--is running unopposed this year. Why? Because he'd win 85% of the vote without breaking a sweat.

Hispanics as a group largely vote with the Democratic party--with one exception: Cuban-Americans in south Florida.

Damn, someone beat me to it. Oh, and my take on the whole Cuba thing, scratch it. Are they actually even being hurt by it? Is it really stopping anyone from buying shit from cuba or going to cuba? And more importantly does the whole thing really even matter anymore except to the illegal immigrants that snuck into this country over the years? The answer to all of those rhetorical questions: I think not.

Damn, someone beat me to it. Oh, and my take on the whole Cuba thing, scratch it. Are they actually even being hurt by it? Is it really stopping anyone from buying shit from cuba or going to cuba? And more importantly does the whole thing really even matter anymore except to the illegal immigrants that snuck into this country over the years? The answer to all of those rhetorical questions: I think not.


Excuse me? Are they being hurt by being denied markets? YES! Other countries DO do business in Cuba, but that has only really picked up in recent years after the fall of the Evil Empire. So Cuba has pretty much had to rebuild a market economy from scratch without access to the largest and closest market. And the rules imposed by the US government still makes other countries pause before investing as well. There are several Canadian executives who will be arrested if they ever try to enter the US because they do business on some of the lands that were expropriated by Castro from US companies over 40 years ago. by chosing to do business with Cuba these companies have to forgo some market access to the US. How many people do you think are willing to trade the US market for Cuba's?

Sanctions only serve to punish the people. It never changes the fact that the people are still under a dictator. Instead, they are just hungrier and poorer.

Frankly, the sanctions do absolutely nothing to punish Castro. Just his people.

canadians are just trying to annex cuba so they don't have to winter in florida anymore.

Actually thats not entirely true....the poorer of the Cuban population in Miami does vote Democratic in large numbers due to the social services the Dems offer. One thing they WILL do is vote for one of their own regardless of party affiliation. Try running down there as an Anglo and see how well you do, regardless of party.

85% of Cuban Americans voted for Bush in 2000 and historically do vote Republican. I'm not sure what you're talking about when it comes to services, it was after all Clinton who reformed welfare!

nothing wrong with cubans/amis voting for people like themself is there?

The Cubans vote for Cubans.
That's why Lieberman gets so much of the Jewish vote.
There's nothing wrong with voting for someone you feel can represent you best because they are the same race as you.

The Cubans vote for Cubans.
That's why Lieberman gets so much of the Jewish vote.
There's nothing wrong with voting for someone you feel can represent you best because they are the same race as you.
Although cubans and jews are not race, but we get the point.
What about a black jewish cuban? What does he vote?

canadians are just trying to annex cuba so they don't have to winter in florida anymore.


Well - we're tired of Disneyworld.... but who isn't really?

I'm sure the sanctions will end once Castro is dead.

When Castro croaks, his brother and Cuban defense minister Raul Castro is said to be his successor to the dictatorship. Raul has hinted that he may be willing to lift the sanctions and normalize trade between Havana and Washington.

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/rcqastr10501.html