NationStates Jolt Archive

Intolerance is found everywhere. At least one group has come out against this, but only to save themselves fom being painted with the same brush. How long will it be before these 1st graders start blowing up buses here in the US?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594357/

There are always intolerant idiots in any group, religion etc.
I know a lot of people of many religions, and live in a town where something like 15% of the population is muslim, and most muslims are happy to live alongside people of other religions, it's just some that are intolerant of others and believe that their religion is somehow 'better' than others, same as in any religion

Islam teaches tolerance.. Islam teaches respect.. but you have these damn clerics who believe they are the self-appointed ambassadors of God.. These are the idiots who believe they know true Islam more than other, everyday Muslims.. and what they say is wrong, offensive, and breeds extremism..

Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life. Islam instills in its followers the conviction that each and every Muslim must connect to Allah directly.. that, unlike other religions, you don't need clerics to boss you around..

In pure Islam, each and every individual in society studies contemporary matters (like abortion, gay rights, etc.), comes up with his OWN interpretation of their impact on society, based on what he knows, and then moves on with his life..

If you need help, you go to someone who has more knowledge of Islam than yourself.. your neighbor, your father, your brother, whatever.. NOT NECESSARILY a cleric..

But then again, no Westerner would ever get a full scope on what Islam is or what it calls for.. and that is sad.. especially since normal Muslims are very open to other cultures and have interacted with such foreign cultures for centuries, even millenia..

The bizarre thing is, that calling Judaism and Christianity 'false religions' means that these lunatics aren't really Muslims, as Mohammad taught that both Moses and Jesus were prophets sent by God.

But then again, no Westerner would ever get a full scope on what Islam is or what it calls for..

Oh I don't know about that ... I'm a "Westerner" and I have a very strong grasp on Islam, what it is, and what it calls for.

But, then, I am a Jew. Jews have always had a strong brotherhood relationship with Muslims - even though the news media would have people believe otherwise.

“All religions other than Islam are false religions.”

Substitute "Christianity" for "Islam" and I will recognise it as something I've heard before. It's a common theme. I've actually spoken to an Imam, and he seemed to be a very reasonable, gentle person. I can say that I respected the way he felt about his faith, too. He didn't try to force it on me, but instead made his actions toward me and others speak for him. The truth is, I have no problem usually with Christian clergy either. For the most part, the problem is the followers.

religion isn't a problem that much

it's only a problem when extremists get high places in policitcs/militairy/busnisses etc...

*looks towards bush

he used religion to get his place and is pretty much abusing it

Oh I don't know about that ... I'm a "Westerner" and I have a very strong grasp on Islam, what it is, and what it calls for.

But, then, I am a Jew. Jews have always had a strong brotherhood relationship with Muslims - even though the news media would have people believe otherwise.

True.. very true.. I'm a devoted Muslim, and I have tens of close Jewish friends. We get on very well.

The bizarre thing is, that calling Judaism and Christianity 'false religions' means that these lunatics aren't really Muslims, as Mohammad taught that both Moses and Jesus were prophets sent by God.

Also true.. The Muslim version is basically that Moses came as a prophet of Allah/God, but over the centuries, his religion was toiled by unbelievers.. Thus Jesus was sent to redeem Humanity, and centuries after his death, his religion too has been toiled. Then came Mohammed, to redeem Humanity as well, but by the time Mohammed's religion is completely toiled, Judgement Day would have come upon us. They all called to one ideology.

In fact, this claim is supported by a Belief-O-Matic test I took a while ago.. After inputting my beliefs as a Muslim, it told me I was (100%) Muslim and (100%) Orthodox Jew.. :)

True.. very true.. I'm a devoted Muslim, and I have tens of close Jewish friends. We get on very well.



Also true.. The Muslim version is basically that Moses came as a prophet of Allah/God, but over the centuries, his religion was toiled by unbelievers.. Thus Jesus was sent to redeem Humanity, and centuries after his death, his religion too has been toiled. Then came Mohammed, to redeem Humanity as well, but by the time Mohammed's religion is completely toiled, Judgement Day would have come upon us. They all called to one ideology.

In fact, this claim is supported by a Belief-O-Matic test I took a while ago.. After inputting my beliefs as a Muslim, it told me I was (100%) Muslim and (100%) Orthodox Jew.. :)


Bahrain.... I spent a few months in your country in 1998 down at Sheik Isa Air Base. The Bahrain Air Force had an awesome party for us there, something I will never forget as the hospitality in Bahrain is the best in the Middle East.

Well, this should be enough to encourage any American going to Saudi Arabia to leave their kids home.

Notice who pointed out these teachings...a MUSLIM group.

A Virginia school that caters to children of Saudi diplomats is teaching first-graders that Judaism and Christianity are false religions, according to a Muslim group concerned that such teachings breed hatred.

Notice who pointed out these teachings...a MUSLIM group.

Thats true...the bothersome thing is that it is a Saudi funded school. They are popping up all over the place these days. The Saudi's support the Wahabii (sp) sect of Islam and it is very violent.

Wahabbis are not only violent towards Muslims and non-Muslims alike, they are also denounced as a bid'aah, or fraud sect, by all Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shi'ite.

The Bahrain Air Force had an awesome party for us there, something I will never forget as the hospitality in Bahrain is the best in the Middle East.

That's why Bin Laden has vowed to turn our country into a bloodbath..

Wahabbis are not only violent towards Muslims and non-Muslims alike, they are also denounced as a bid'aah, or fraud sect, by all Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shi'ite.



That's why Bin Laden has vowed to turn our country into a bloodbath..

It is funny that the Saudi's promote the sect, yet it will one day probably destroy the Saud family.

Unfortunately, these "Muslims" ruling the Saudi ideology have a very strong grip on the nation. They can easily denounce anyone as an unbeliever, and putting a bounty on his head. If they do this to members of the Saudi royal family, the royal family will turn against its own citizens in an attempt to wipe out the Wahabbi sect. This will encourage a revolt (with possible foreign aid), plunging Saudi Arabia into chaos..

And who will take over??.. You guessed it.. the Wahabbis..

What the Arab and Muslim world needs is for these despots ruling it, from Indonesia to Pakistan to Saudi to Morocco, to be deposed, and open-minded, devoted, tolerant Muslim leaders to take their place. Muslims that instill democracy not to avoid human rights agencies, but because of their love for their people.. Of course, many are greedy, powerhungry bastards, so that probably won't happen, unless a miracle takes place..

True.. very true.. I'm a devoted Muslim, and I have tens of close Jewish friends. We get on very well.


The funny thing is ... I, like most of my Jewish bretheren, believe that if a gun were put to our head and we were given the choice between Islam and Christianity, we'd choose Islam 99% of the time.

That's the thing about us, you know?

We know that there is no mediation between the individual and God. It's the thing that I have alway respected about Muslims - that they have a personal relationship with God, as opposed to believing there needs to be a "go-between".

If you're Muslim, I applaud you and wish you the best and all the blessings of Abraham. I also apologize for all of the hatred and ignorance that my country (the US) has given you.

I know that there is no god, save Allah, and I know that there is no mediator.

it's only a problem when extremists get high places in policitcs/militairy/busnisses etc...

To quote the sci-fi TV series Babylon 5:

"A religious zealot,propelled by prophecy into a position of political and military authority? Always a bad idea!"

*looks towards bush

he used religion to get his place and is pretty much abusing it

And it's not just Bush,its the Neo-cons and the "Theocracy NOW!" faction who support him that are the problem.

Hey here's a little history lesson for you racists. You remember when the crusaders took Jerusalem? Yeh? Well they killed thousands if not tens of thousands when they got into the holy city - and you know what? Before what was basically an insane Egyptian Overlord of Jerusalem, who burnt down the Holy Sepulchre, Muslims and Christians got along just fine - they were both allowed to practice thier religions and nobody begrudged it.

But after the massacre when Saladin retook the city - did he murder Christians, or burn down Churches? No. He ordered no reprisal attacks, he allowed Christians to worship peacefully and allowed them to rebuild churches that The Egyptian King had ordered burnt down.

Hey here's a little history lesson for you racists. You remember when the crusaders took Jerusalem? Yeh? Well they killed thousands if not tens of thousands when they got into the holy city - and you know what? Before what was basically an insane Egyptian Overlord of Jerusalem, who burnt down the Holy Sepulchre, Muslims and Christians got along just fine - they were both allowed to practice thier religions and nobody begrudged it.


Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ....
:D

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

Most people who practice the modern incarnation of islam arent the violent lust driven madmen that is now becoming the stereotype for muslims. I hate to see them under that light. They're largely a very respectable and good group of people.
Traditional Islam, however, is a violent and wholely evil belief system that appeals to base desires through often conflicting or self defeating material. Thats the stuff that makes me cringe.
I dont expect a sympathetic reception for the link of the book I gave in this forum, but I think its a good one :)

Hey here's a little history lesson for you racists. You remember when the crusaders took Jerusalem? Yeh? Well they killed thousands if not tens of thousands when they got into the holy city - and you know what? Before what was basically an insane Egyptian Overlord of Jerusalem, who burnt down the Holy Sepulchre, Muslims and Christians got along just fine - they were both allowed to practice thier religions and nobody begrudged it.

But after the massacre when Saladin retook the city - did he murder Christians, or burn down Churches? No. He ordered no reprisal attacks, he allowed Christians to worship peacefully and allowed them to rebuild churches that The Egyptian King had ordered burnt down.

Dude, Saladin kicked major ass.


I've recently gottten somewhat interested in middle eastern culture, and I'd honestly like to do a study on Islam some day. I really like the idea of a personal relationship with God.

You know what's funny?..

I've noticed that the historians dedicated to Middle-Eastern culture, the ones who actually learn arabic to ease communication with Muslims, (and therefore happen to read the Quran), are fascinated by it..

The ones who study the English version of the Quran get the message relayed on prophet of doom..

I need to grab hold of an English Quran, read the heck out of it and get to the bottom of this.. I swear I'll compare each and every phrase on both..

Dude, Saladin kicked major ass.

Non-biased source, please??.. Saladin made the city an 'international', tolerant city. Without Muslims in Jerusalem, the Jewish population would have been massacred on the hands of the Crusaders. Without the Jews in Jerusalem, the Muslims would not have the kickstart they needed to get their economy up and running. And the Christians were peaceful to everybody.. In fact, Muslims prayed in churches alongside Christians..

Keruvalia - May God bless you.. such is the tolerance we need in this world.. It has proved ever so elusive thus far.. unfortunately.

contrast that article with this Clicky (http://www.counterpunch.org/glahn10222003.html)

Read down and you'll find some facinating opinions on the subject by a muslim scholar. Allways soft and unique. The deal with radicalised Islam is a convergence of political stagnation of the Middle east. Coupled with the old British imperial games and the new American imperial games. Palestine is a large factor too. It may be a small shithole but its a historical area and its significant in that it was supposed to be part of the "independant arab state" post ww1. Arabs arent pissed by that, but their forefathers were. Middle easterners are constatly reminded of history. It may not be particularly relevant to Arabs and Persians today but the general resentment has been inherited. A disparaging remark here and there is all it takes to pass a political persusaion onto your childeren.

Its just that islam has a lot of glorious stories about heroes that bodgy clerics can use to exploit childish young mulims. The stories are more state propaganda than relevant muslim deeds. Some got mixed in during the crusades. But thats the problem with islam. It never got the secular thing going on, the cultures of the people and of religion were never properly distinguished. Or at least have been mixed up in recent interpretations of history.

Islam teaches tolerance.. Islam teaches respect.. but you have these damn clerics who believe they are the self-appointed ambassadors of God.. These are the idiots who believe they know true Islam more than other, everyday Muslims.. and what they say is wrong, offensive, and breeds extremism..

Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life. Islam instills in its followers the conviction that each and every Muslim must connect to Allah directly.. that, unlike other religions, you don't need clerics to boss you around..

In pure Islam, each and every individual in society studies contemporary matters (like abortion, gay rights, etc.), comes up with his OWN interpretation of their impact on society, based on what he knows, and then moves on with his life..

If you need help, you go to someone who has more knowledge of Islam than yourself.. your neighbor, your father, your brother, whatever.. NOT NECESSARILY a cleric..

But then again, no Westerner would ever get a full scope on what Islam is or what it calls for.. and that is sad.. especially since normal Muslims are very open to other cultures and have interacted with such foreign cultures for centuries, even millenia..

Excuse me...teaches tolerance??...Could you please point out the Sura that says that?...at what point did Mohammed teach that?...is that the Sura that states to not trust the Jew or the Gentile for they shall lead you from the true path?...I mean...not saying that today's muslims all follow the same line of theology...because they don't..but tolerance is not something the Koran or the Quran teaches...

Hey here's a little history lesson for you racists. You remember when the crusaders took Jerusalem? Yeh? Well they killed thousands if not tens of thousands when they got into the holy city - and you know what? Before what was basically an insane Egyptian Overlord of Jerusalem, who burnt down the Holy Sepulchre, Muslims and Christians got along just fine - they were both allowed to practice thier religions and nobody begrudged it.

But after the massacre when Saladin retook the city - did he murder Christians, or burn down Churches? No. He ordered no reprisal attacks, he allowed Christians to worship peacefully and allowed them to rebuild churches that The Egyptian King had ordered burnt down.

You left out the initial Jihad that ravaged Eastern Europe and Spain..During the First Crusade the Crusader Army did yes..did slaughter approx 30,000 muslim men, women, and children once they breached the walls of Jerusalem..but what you are also neglecting are the three years of hard fighting they had to do to liberate those areas taken by the Muslim armies who had their own atrocities to be accounted for.

Two wrongs dont make a right Sal.
And why would muhammed make a mention of intollerance. Back than there wasnt anybody else to be intollerant of :D

Two wrongs dont make a right Sal.
And why would muhammed make a mention of intollerance. Back than there wasnt anybody else to be intollerant of :D

Yes..but whom brought atrocities to whom first?...There are no accurate reports of how man Christian men, women, and children the Muslim armies raped, pillaged, burned, and forced-converted to Islam but from general accounts taken at the time the numbers could easily rate up against that which occured in Jerusalem after the First Crusade.

Excuse me...teaches tolerance??...Could you please point out the Sura that says that?....not saying that today's muslims all follow the same line of theology...because they don't..but tolerance is not something the Koran or the Quran teaches...

Similar things might be said about the bible and homosexuality....but not all Christians follow the same line either *shrug*

If its that long ago does it matter who started it?

Similar things might be said about the bible and homosexuality....but not all Christians follow the same line either *shrug*

Only in the Old Testament does it stipulate to violence..to the Jews, God was a vengeful and jealous God..."Thou shalt have no other Gods before me", but the New Testament to which Christians are theologically linked is full of pacifism..."They shall beat their swords into plowshares"...."Blessed are the Meek"...etc..etc..all thru the NT non-violence is explicitly given..

The same can not be said of Islam..thru out it's entirety Mohammed spelled out aggressive behavior, even violence toward other faiths.

Aren't you talking about shit that went down, like, seven or eight hundred years ago? Harping on who slaughtered who during the first frickin' crusade doesn't help the situation at hand in 2004 A.D. The first step towards tolerance is to put the past in the past (not to forget it completely, but to move forward) for all people. Christians, Jews and Muslims alike have got to get past this. As a Catholic, I bristle when I here some wackadoo say, "The Jews murdered Our Lord!" Jews and Muslims likewise should bristle when one of their own bring up some ancient crime against their people. How ignorant it sounds when people in this day and age point to an event that happened a millenia ago as reason to hate another group of people.

Yes..but whom brought atrocities to whom first?...There are no accurate reports of how man Christian men, women, and children the Muslim armies raped, pillaged, burned, and forced-converted to Islam but from general accounts taken at the time the numbers could easily rate up against that which occured in Jerusalem after the First Crusade.

Oh, dear Christ on a crutch, is there anything more moronic than dredging up who was more atrocious to whom some 900-odd years ago? Give it up, man. If you really want to go into it, I'm afraid you'll find that the Christian side of the equation was, almost invariably, more brutal and more prone to mass slaughter than the Muslim one. Nothing whatsoever to do with religion: just culture. Eastern Christianity, by and large, rubbed along reasonably well with Islam -- probably because the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire was, like the Muslims, a relatively civilised, urban, moneyed, administration-based culture, whereas the Westerners were from an oath-based, agrarian, warrior culture that both Byzantines and Muslims viewed with ill-disguised horror and disgust. Furthermore, the Western crusaders didn't confine their slaughtering to the muslims they encountered: several Byzantine cities were sacked by the First Crusade, and it didn't get any better on subsequent adventures. Most notable of these would be the Fourth Crusade, where the crusaders forgot about the Holy Land and just sacked (Christian) Constantinople instead.

Islam teaches that the "people of the book", i.e. Jews and Christians, should be tolerated and allowed to practice their own faith (within limits -- they are not allowed to evangelise and are not allowed to marry muslims without converting). I know that parts of the Koran say other things but the Koran, like the Bible, is not without contradictions. However, unlike the Bible, the Koran has a traditional way of dealing with these contradictions: whatever appears latest in the book is what should be used. This is why the order the Suras appear in is so important (and potentially contentious). Extremists quote chunks out of context and ignore this tradition, just like Chrisian fundamentalists bang on about "Leviticus and homosexuality" while ignoring "Leviticus and garments made of mixed fibres".

Because of this tradition of religious (or at least Judeo-Christian) tolerance, Islam has a much better record of converting Christians than Christianity has of converting Muslims. Christian rulers tended, in the main, to persecute their Muslim subjects; Muslim rulers usually just made their Christian subjects pay a higher rate of tax.

Oh, dear Christ on a crutch, is there anything more moronic than dredging up who was more atrocious to whom some 900-odd years ago? Give it up, man. If you really want to go into it, I'm afraid you'll find that the Christian side of the equation was, almost invariably, more brutal and more prone to mass slaughter than the Muslim one. Nothing whatsoever to do with religion: just culture. Eastern Christianity, by and large, rubbed along reasonably well with Islam -- probably because the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire was, like the Muslims, a relatively civilised, urban, moneyed, administration-based culture, whereas the Westerners were from an oath-based, agrarian, warrior culture that both Byzantines and Muslims viewed with ill-disguised horror and disgust. Furthermore, the Western crusaders didn't confine their slaughtering to the muslims they encountered: several Byzantine cities were sacked by the First Crusade, and it didn't get any better on subsequent adventures. Most notable of these would be the Fourth Crusade, where the crusaders forgot about the Holy Land and just sacked (Christian) Constantinople instead.

Islam teaches that the "people of the book", i.e. Jews and Christians, should be tolerated and allowed to practice their own faith (within limits -- they are not allowed to evangelise and are not allowed to marry muslims without converting). I know that parts of the Koran say other things but the Koran, like the Bible, is not without contradictions. However, unlike the Bible, the Koran has a traditional way of dealing with these contradictions: whatever appears latest in the book is what should be used. This is why the order the Suras appear in is so important (and potentially contentious). Extremists quote chunks out of context and ignore this tradition, just like Chrisian fundamentalists bang on about "Leviticus and homosexuality" while ignoring "Leviticus and garments made of mixed fibres".

Because of this tradition of religious (or at least Judeo-Christian) tolerance, Islam has a much better record of converting Christians than Christianity has of converting Muslims. Christian rulers tended, in the main, to persecute their Muslim subjects; Muslim rulers usually just made their Christian subjects pay a higher rate of tax.


You misunderstand my position....I was trying to refute Naze Weaponized's comments..I know full well that atrocities were committed by both sides..but he made it appear as if the only ones doing them were the Crusaders, I correctly pointed out to him that both sides were guilty of them.

As for your comments bout sacking Constantinople...both Christian and muslim armies sacked it..a pity...it should have been the bright light that could have shortened the dark ages.

You misunderstand my position....I was trying to refute Naze Weaponized's comments..I know full well that atrocities were committed by both sides..but he made it appear as if the only ones doing them were the Crusaders, I correctly pointed out to him that both sides were guilty of them.

Fair enough: but you were attributing Muslim violence directly to teachings in the Koran -- which is erroneous, since the later suras teach tolerance towards Jews and Christians -- while ignoring the fact that Christians were just as, if not more, violent, despite what their holy book says about killing people. Religion has very little impact on human behaviour.

As for your comments bout sacking Constantinople...both Christian and muslim armies sacked it..a pity...it should have been the bright light that could have shortened the dark ages.

On the sacking of Constantinople: the Fourth Crusade sacked the city in 1204 -- some time after the so-called "Dark Ages" had come to an end, and following the 12th-century renaissance when western Europe was re-introduced to Classical and Arabic medicine, mathematics, science and philosophy via Islamic Spain. The Byzantines, meanwhile, had sat for over half a millenium doing little or nothing of cultural note and contributing virtually nothing to the sum total of human knowledge. If it had been up to Constantinople to be a "bright light" we'd be waiting yet.

The idea for the 1204 attack on Constantinople came from the Venetians, trading rivals of the Byzantines, who were transporting the crusaders supposedly to attack Egypt. The sack of Constantinople resulted in the short-lived and chaotic Latin Empire. The Greeks did regain control of the city and (much reduced) imperial territory in the mid-13th century, but the Byzantine Empire was permanently crippled. Although they managed to hold out for a couple more centuries, they eventually succumbed to the Turks under Mehmet the Conqueror in 1453. A fag-end of Empire lingered in Trebizond on the Black Sea coast for a few more years, but Europe lost its last eastern bulwark against the Turks. Whether or not this would have happened if the crusaders hadn't mortally wounded Byzantium in 1204 is anybody's guess.

(Edit: confused the date of the Turkish conquest of Constantinople with the date of the founding of Glasgow University -- a common mistake...)

Excuse me...teaches tolerance??...Could you please point out the Sura that says that?...at what point did Mohammed teach that?...is that the Sura that states to not trust the Jew or the Gentile for they shall lead you from the true path?...I mean...not saying that today's muslims all follow the same line of theology...because they don't..but tolerance is not something the Koran or the Quran teaches...

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficient, the Most Merciful

"Say: O disbelievers. I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion!"

Al-Kafirun.. the entire sura.. that is what I can come up with from the top of my head.. I can give you tens of other ayahs if you would like.

Also, Muhammad said days before he passed away:

"Oh Men and Women, ye were all born of Adam, and Adam was created from dust. There is no difference between an Arab and a foreigner."

As for your other accusations, re-read Jeldred's posts.. This man knows what he is talking about..

It is funny that the Saudi's promote the sect, yet it will one day probably destroy the Saud family.
You are wrong. The Saudi royal family came to power with that sect by forming an alliance with the Wahhabites pretty at the begining of this movement.
There are however groups within Wahhabism which are even more rigorous than the mainstream.
After all: the decision of King Fahd in 1990 to allow the US to station troups in the Kingdom was very disputed even in the royal family itself.
Complicated matter and complicated country. But very important as well: Without Saudi-Arabia the world economy would slip into a deep recession. They are the biggest oil supplier of the whole world and due to that very rich, powerful and influential - especially the royal family.

Here are a few off my head....and a little research

(1)Violence is commanded in Sura 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have
passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them
captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,..."

(2)What if you resist Islam? Sura 5:33 - "The punishment of those who wage
war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is
only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their
feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned..."

(3)Make peace and be friends with the Christian and the Jew? Sura 5:51 - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust

Just a few things I've seen..

Please pause a moment and reflect back, by taking the following Multiple Choice test:

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbitt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Islamic male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
a. Captain Kid
b. Charles Lindbergh
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Here are a few off my head....and a little research

(1)Violence is commanded in Sura 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have
passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them
captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,..."

(2)What if you resist Islam? Sura 5:33 - "The punishment of those who wage
war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is
only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their
feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned..."

(3)Make peace and be friends with the Christian and the Jew? Sura 5:51 - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust

Just a few things I've seen..

But later suras -- which, as I've pointed out, supersede the earlier ones -- say other things, for example:

Sura 29 (The Spider): "Dispute not with the People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians) save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to him we have surrendered.'"

Which of course is not to say that Muslims are just as prone as Christians or jews or anybody else to disobeying the pleasant parts of their holy book and concentrating on the bits that justify violence and slaughter. Any excuse in a storm.

LOL, your demographic is a bit.....broad

Im a White male aged 18 to 49, everyone listens to me! No matter how dumb my suggestions. - Homer Simpson.

That one shuts 'em up every time! I love it!

Shuts who up? This thread wa dead till I bumped it. And as I said, your little test doesnt actuallt proove much at all. And its not funny. Was it a C&P job? I'd ahte to think you wrote those lame answers on the spot because it would take so long, but I can believe it.

</snip 'quiz'>



Using this format, you could prove that all races/nationalities/etc. were violent.

It proves nothing.

You left out the initial Jihad that ravaged Eastern Europe and Spain..During the First Crusade the Crusader Army did yes..did slaughter approx 30,000 muslim men, women, and children once they breached the walls of Jerusalem..but what you are also neglecting are the three years of hard fighting they had to do to liberate those areas taken by the Muslim armies who had their own atrocities to be accounted for.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Hakem of Egypt was the first ever Muslim ruler to commit acts such as these. For decades beforehand Jerusalem had been a centre of tolerance. No other Muslim ruler ever tried to infringe upon the rights to pray and worship of Christians - and Hakem was despised even among Muslims. The fact you are trying to justify atrocities that were committed by the crusaders is sickening enough - but the fact you distort the truth (probably not of your own accord - indoctrination) is even worse.

It seems your only response to logical arguments is to represent cases of terrorism which have no relevance to the topic of discussion, and to not represent fully the reasons why these terrorist attacks occur. You talk about leaving out points - the aforementioned points is one of the most vital let you leave it out and choose to believe the 'hating freedom' rhetoric instead. Your other method is to document areas in the Quran where dislike of Non-Muslims is expressed, but leave out sickening areas of the Old Testament to balance your argument. Have you ever been to an Arabic Country? Well with your attitude I suspect not, but from my own personal experience I can safely dismiss the 'Islamaphobia' about every Muslim that is so vigorously pursued by the American Media, such as that at the start of the thread.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Hakem of Egypt was the first ever Muslim ruler to commit acts such as these. For decades beforehand Jerusalem had been a centre of tolerance. No other Muslim ruler ever tried to infringe upon the rights to pray and worship of Christians - and Hakem was despised even among Muslims. The fact you are trying to justify atrocities that were committed by the crusaders is sickening enough - but the fact you distort the truth (probably not of your own accord - indoctrination) is even worse.

And while Christianity has been moderated from crazy ass inquisition fundamentalism to the point of near extinction in Europe and much reduced strength in America, Islam has become more and more violent and radicalized since the time of Saladin. Almost every conflict in the world involves Muslims vs. [insert religion here]... Xinjiang in China, Chechnya, Indonesia, India, Phillipines, Sudan, Nigeria, etc. I'm not saying that Islam is inherently bad because people can be evil in any form, Muslim or Christian or atheist... but the truth of the matter is, citing Christian atrocities during the Crusades does not conceal the fact that modern Muslim societies are among the most socially oppressive in the world. I have great respect for progressive Muslims who want to reform their society, and you should think up ideas for them, instead of dwelling on the past and supporting the fundamentalist Muslim view of the world which calls for things like reconquering Spain because of something that happened 500 years ago.

And while Christianity has been moderated from crazy ass inquisition fundamentalism to the point of near extinction in Europe and much reduced strength in America, Islam has become more and more violent and radicalized since the time of Saladin. Almost every conflict in the world involves Muslims vs. [insert religion here]... Xinjiang in China, Chechnya, Indonesia, India, Phillipines, Sudan, Nigeria, etc. I'm not saying that Islam is inherently bad because people can be evil in any form, Muslim or Christian or atheist... but the truth of the matter is, citing Christian atrocities during the Crusades does not conceal the fact that modern Muslim societies are among the most socially oppressive in the world. I have great respect for progressive Muslims who want to reform their society, and you should think up ideas for them, instead of dwelling on the past and supporting the fundamentalist Muslim view of the world which calls for things like reconquering Spain because of something that happened 500 years ago.

Instead of dismissing funademtalist views as representative of all Muslims, why not look at why thier ideas on the US and Western hegemonic nations nations as a whole have such widespread support (thier views not thier actions).

I'd doubt you would want Saudi Arabian Air bases in the US. And furthermore I doubt you would want The them funding your enemies while they carry out atrocities against your allies and neighbours. I also doubt you would like it if they propped up a dictatorial regime in your own country which despicably breaches human rights, and finally I doubt you would like it if they provided neighbouring regimes with WMD that were going to be used in conflict.

Apart from the brief reasons mentioned above, there are a whole host more.

Instead of dismissing funademtalist views as representative of all Muslims, why not look at why thier ideas on the US and Western hegemonic nations nations as a whole have such widespread support (thier views not thier actions).

I'd doubt you would want Saudi Arabian Air bases in the US. And furthermore I doubt you would want The them funding your enemies while they carry out atrocities against your allies and neighbours. I also doubt you would like it if they propped up a dictatorial regime in your own country which despicably breaches human rights, and finally I doubt you would like it if they provided neighbouring regimes with WMD that were going to be used in conflict.

Apart from the brief reasons mentioned above, there are a whole host more.
I agree, American foreign policy is wholly misguided. However the fundamental nature of contemporary Islamic society is reflexively conservative, totalitarian, and devout, US or no US. If left alone they would still set up the sort of socially backward regimes they have today. For example in Iran which is an avowed enemy of the US, womens rights are atrocious, it is legal for a grown man to marry a 9-year old girl. In Malaysia which has been largely independent of American influence and which is a relatively wealthy, middle-class nation men can divorce their wives by text messaging their wife "I divorce you" three times. Even when Muslims are given freedoms, such as in Europe and America, they coalesce into insular, highly religious fundamentalist cliques suspicious of outsiders. There are a lot of exceptions of course, but generally speaking Muslim societies and Muslim neighborhoods in Western nations are more socially archaic than non-Muslim ones. Not only do we have to work on American foreign policy but we also cannot keep making excuses about why Muslim society is so despotic, and we have to address these root causes of modern Islamic oppression which lay largely in their cultures themselves, not in American airbases.

I agree, American foreign policy is wholly misguided. However the fundamental nature of contemporary Islamic society is reflexively conservative, totalitarian, and devout, US or no US. If left alone they would still set up the sort of socially backward regimes they have today. For example in Iran which is an avowed enemy of the US, womens rights are atrocious, it is legal for a grown man to marry a 9-year old girl. In Malaysia which has been largely independent of American influence men can divorce their wives by text messaging their wife "I divorce you" three times. Even when Muslims are given freedoms, such as in Europe and America, they coalesce into insular, highly religious fundamentalist cliques suspicious of outsiders. There are a lot of exceptions of course, but generally speaking Muslim societies and Muslim neighborhoods in Western nations are more socially archaic than non-Muslim ones. Not only do we have to work on American foreign policy but we also cannot keep making excuses about why Muslim society is so despotic, and we have to address these root causes of modern Islamic oppression which lay largely in their cultures themselves, not in American airbases.

So you honestly believe that putting Islamic hate of the US down to its 'society' has any representation in fact? Oh well, as they say, people believe what they want to believe and you my friend believe a thing called rhetoric.

Some of the comments you make are hugely generalistic, borderline of racism - and then you expect me to take you seriously?

So you honestly believe that putting Islamic hate of the US down to its 'society' has any representation in fact? Oh well, as they say, people believe what they want to believe and you my friend believe a thing called rhetoric.
So you have again ignored all of my points and tried to change the subject... I'm not talking about Muslims hating the US... I've already agreed completely with you that the US foreign policy is misguided and I see reason why Muslims hate America, why are you still arguing about something we agree about? Why can't you open your eyes and acknowledge that Muslim nations are the most homophobic nations in the world, in addition to having terrible women's rights and archaic tribal laws which are good for a nomadic primitive society but cannot be adapted to a civilized society? There have been many great Islamic reformers in history, such as Sayyid Ahmad Khan in Pakistan who have had many opportunities to reform their societies, but each time they are thwarted by people like you who hide the root causes of Islamic oppression by blaming absolutely everything on "the West" while not compelling Muslims to critically evaluate themselves and their culture.

Some of the comments you make are hugely generalistic, borderline of racism - and then you expect me to take you seriously?
Point out a single example of where I have made racist comments about people... you can't! I have talked about Islam and not any particular races associated with Islam. In fact there are many white Anglo-Saxon Muslim fundamentalist converts here in the US who abuse Islamic scripture and take their beliefs to an intolerant extreme. And even in talking about a religion, not a race, I have mentioned that there are exceptions to all of the things I said. Not all individual Muslims are anti-gay. But Muslim societies invariably oppresses homosexuals. Not all Muslims treat women poorly. But in the vast majority of Muslim societies women are officially second-class citizens who are frequently exposed to injustices ranging from irritating indignities to vicious psychological and physical abuse.

Threatening to not take the opposing side seriously - that is just childish, conceited rhetoric on your part in a pathetic effort to ignore valid points you can't refute.

But in the vast majority of Muslim societies women are officially second-class citizens who are frequently exposed to injustices ranging from irritating indignities to vicious psychological and physical abuse.

And are we any better? We still treat women as consumer objects don't we? As Osama pointed out in his latest letter:

"You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women."

Does he not have a point? And in all Muslim countries that recently allowed a Gallup Poll to take place - most said that they choose of their own free will to wear a headscarf - it's THIER culture - why should it be americanised into a society that uses sex to sell everything from doughnuts to deodrant?

And as for the comments "But in the vast majority of Muslim societies women who are frequently exposed to physical abuse." Again, you are alleging something that has no basis in fact - that a majority of Muslim men are criminals and beat thier wives.


Threatening to not take the opposing side seriously - that is just childish, conceited rhetoric on your part in a pathetic effort to ignore valid points you can't refute.

Explain one 'valid point' that I have not taken into account - you have not offered any facts, and you use completely irrelevant, flase history to back up your claims. Your attempted justification of the Crusader's crimes, and your generalization of an entire Religion show just how narrow minded you really are.

You know what's funny?..

I've noticed that the historians dedicated to Middle-Eastern culture, the ones who actually learn arabic to ease communication with Muslims, (and therefore happen to read the Quran), are fascinated by it..

The ones who study the English version of the Quran get the message relayed on prophet of doom..

I need to grab hold of an English Quran, read the heck out of it and get to the bottom of this.. I swear I'll compare each and every phrase on both..



Non-biased source, please??.. Saladin made the city an 'international', tolerant city. Without Muslims in Jerusalem, the Jewish population would have been massacred on the hands of the Crusaders. Without the Jews in Jerusalem, the Muslims would not have the kickstart they needed to get their economy up and running. And the Christians were peaceful to everybody.. In fact, Muslims prayed in churches alongside Christians..

Keruvalia - May God bless you.. such is the tolerance we need in this world.. It has proved ever so elusive thus far.. unfortunately.

Roffle. Dude, I meant that Saladin was AWESOME. A cool guy.



Oh, and the Crusades were begun for purely political reasons. The religious ones came later.

Roffle. Dude, I meant that Saladin was AWESOME. A cool guy.


Oh, and the Crusades were begun for purely political reasons. The religious ones came later.


Ermm.. I apologize if that's the case..

Galtania - That MC test contradicted the point you were trying to make. Your point was against the Muslim faith. But the fact that the answer to every question is: "Muslim male extremists aged...." proves my point: A very small minority, operating in cells to avoid detection, is destroying the image of the majority. How did Chinua Achebe put it?.. Oh yes, "If one finger brings oil, it soils the others".. or something to that effect.

(1)Violence is commanded in Sura 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,..."

(2)What if you resist Islam? Sura 5:33 - "The punishment of those who wage
war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is
only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their
feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned..."

(3)Make peace and be friends with the Christian and the Jew? Sura 5:51 - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust

I had a few more devoted people analyze those three ayahs in boring detail.. It took hours, and my head is spinning. Also, there are some discrepancies between the Arabic, original Quran, and the ayahs you posted here.. can you give me the source of the three ayahs so I can check 'em myself?

I'll post later.. It's 3 A.M.. I'm tired.. but I will get back to you on those three ayahs someday.. It will be a very long post, but I will..

Have you ever been to an Arabic Country? Well with your attitude I suspect not, but from my own personal experience I can safely dismiss the 'Islamaphobia' about every Muslim that is so vigorously pursued by the American Media, such as that at the start of the thread.

Actually I think Salishe has been. Just as part of a foreign occupying power. He claims to be a Grizzled Native American, Retired military man who has been in most every Conflict of note in the latter half of the twentieth century....

:D

And are we any better? We still treat women as consumer objects don't we? As Osama pointed out in his latest letter:

"You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women."

Yes, we are better. Women in the west can choose however the hell they want to live. Women here can choose to be sex symbols, or housewives, or strictly religious Muslims or Christians, or Amish, or soldiers, or anything at all. In Middle Eastern societies women have much less choices. To say that all we do is "exploit women like consumer products" is stereotyping by you, considering that women are just as likely as men in the US to be literate (while female population in Islam is more illiterate than men), women in the US are military generals, entertainers, religious leaders, independent careerists, not just a slick sex-driven marketing tool.


Does he not have a point? And in all Muslim countries that recently allowed a Gallup Poll to take place - most said that they choose of their own free will to wear a headscarf - it's THIER culture - why should it be americanised into a society that uses sex to sell everything from doughnuts to deodrant?

Though from the western perspective I wouldn't want women to wear headscarves I will not criticize the fact that many Muslim women take head covering, as long as they do not influence non-Muslims to do the same (as has happened during the Delhi Sultanate in India). In fact I am proud that the United States is more tolerant than Europe on the matter of freedom of religion, considering that France has banned the wearing of such, and the practice of their religion by other sects most notably the Sikhs and Orthodox Jews who are required by religious law to wear conspicuous insignias of their religion.

And as for the comments "But in the vast majority of Muslim societies women who are frequently exposed to physical abuse." Again, you are alleging something that has no basis in fact - that a majority of Muslim men are criminals and beat thier wives.
In many Muslim societies child rape is legalized. In Iran or Saudi Arabia for example grown men can marry girls of any age. (and don't tell me that in Saudi Arabia that this is because the United States backed a despotic regime - child rape has been accepted in Islam since the time of the Prophet when Mohammed married six year old Ayesha)

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

Men can also divorce women anytime they want, while women have less rights in a court of law. The Sharia (which has been implemented in Pakistan, many parts of Nigeria, Sudan, and other communities) clearly states that women are to have less rights than men in society. Men must escort women anywhere, and women are always confined to the shitty part of a mosque during worship.

Explain one 'valid point' that I have not taken into account - you have not offered any facts, and you use completely irrelevant, flase history to back up your claims.
You are falsely accusing me of not backing up my claims, but how come you are not offering tangible facts? It is common knowledge that Islamic societies are definitely anti-gay and largely less progressive than the West when it comes to female independence. Try to refute that, you can't.

Your attempted justification of the Crusader's crimes, and your generalization of an entire Religion show just how narrow minded you really are.

Cite a single line where I have tried to justify the crusades. Why do you habitually make up lies about what I have said? First you said that I considered the US foreign policy is good (which I never said) and now you say I praised the crusaders. That was someone else moron! And I won't even comment on your hypocrisy... you are accusing me of making generalizations yet in the past you have said America is completely devoid of culture. How can anyone take you seriously, with your pathological lies and extreme hypocrisy?

Anyways, what's wrong with generalization? Generalization has created a lot of positive social change in the world (consider the following generalizations: Martin Luther - "The Catholic Church is greedy", Gandhi - "The British are oppressors"). Only when you generalize - when you confront the system and not just individuals - can you have more clarity and plan overarching change. Furthermore, why are you allowed to generalize, yet no one else is? You are trying to prove your generalization that America is evil, while I am trying to prove that the west is more progressive than Islam. To each his own.

Europe and America used to be just like today's Islam - here you couldn't talk about sex, or women's rights, and you couldn't ever question Christianity. But reformers and freethinkers have remade western society so that there is no longer an over-reliance on superstition and dogma. In most Muslim countries however there is no separation of Mosque and state, resulting in intolerance and theocratic totalitarianism. Islam is considered the source of all truths, and societal behavior still is based largely on religion.

Christian society has been de-religionized, and I think for the better. We no longer go on crusades or stone adulterous wives or execute girls who have premarital sex. Muslim reformers are trying to improve their society too, and why are you getting in the Muslims' way and preventing them from having a chance at a humane society?

Your comments about one of the greatest men of our age - Mahatma Gandhi, leave a lot to be desired. He never generalized people - one of his greatest strengths was this very charecteristic. The Indians as a people were portrayed as less civilised - yet how wrong Gandhi proved them when an atrocity after atrocity was committed, he still taught people violence was not the way.

I bet your even going to criticise (like most of the Right do) Nelson Mandela of being a terrorist.

And as for your Right Driven comments about 'us being better' I would have expected no less. Like all Americans you believe the only way to solve problems is to enforce hegemonic rule and give your own brand of 'exported democracy' to the World. Next you will be saying The South Vietnamese Government was loved by all the populace and that Diem was a great man.

Haha, noticed something else. 'Why are you getting in the Muslims way?' I think the only understandable argument for you that I could reciprocate with would be this. Look whose talking Mr. House of Saud, Egypt and Kuwait.
Truly you are clever....

NOT!

In fact I am proud that the United States is more tolerant than Europe on the matter of freedom of religion, considering that France has banned the wearing of such, and the practice of their religion by other sects most notably the Sikhs and Orthodox Jews who are required by religious law to wear conspicuous insignias of their religion.

Generalisation. France is not the entire of Europe.

Saying America is more tolerant than Europe is ridiculous. I saw a story of CNBC recently where a woman living near to an immigrant trail had bought a gun and in the interview said she would shoot any immigrants entering the country. Why is there this kind of intolerance? Simple. Because Uncle Sam is a rich, white affluent male who wears the stars and stripes proudly whereas anyone who has a darker skin color is to be mistrusted.

Your comments about one of the greatest men of our age - Mahatma Gandhi, leave a lot to be desired. He never generalized people - one of his greatest strengths was this very charecteristic. The Indians as a people were portrayed as less civilised - yet how wrong Gandhi proved them when an atrocity after atrocity was committed, he still taught people violence was not the way.
If you don't generalize then you are just tackling tiny problems without being able to see the big picture. As long as you are mindful of exceptions, generalizing things is the only way to implement system wide change, and Gandhi knew that. Gandhi thought almost all British rule was bad for India when there were certain Indians who would make exceptions and compromise with Britain. During WWII Gandhi was so opposed to Britain that he wanted India to drop out of the war. These may have been unpopular views but Gandhi's perseverence and refusal to compromise paid off.

You are also prone to generalization, you think all of America has no culture. And I respect your right to hold your opinion even if I disagree with your opinions.


I bet your even going to criticise (like most of the Right do) Nelson Mandela of being a terrorist.
Um... riiight.


And as for your Right Driven comments about 'us being better' I would have expected no less. Like all Americans you believe the only way to solve problems is to enforce hegemonic rule and give your own brand of 'exported democracy' to the World. Next you will be saying The South Vietnamese Government was loved by all the populace and that Diem was a great man.

Again you are purporting to know my thoughts. Again you are completely wrong. Where did I ever promote an interventionalist policy? I am just suggesting that Muslims modernize and liberalize their societies, and if they really really don't want to, that's fine with me, but it would be their loss. But I have made it very clear, from my perspective I think liberal society is better than fundamentalist society and I have put forth suggestions for how to reform, starting with two things: the US should change its foreign policy, and also people like you who get in the way and justify fundamentalism should shut up.


Haha, noticed something else. 'Why are you getting in the Muslims way?' I think the only understandable argument for you that I could reciprocate with would be this. Look whose talking Mr. House of Saud, Egypt and Kuwait.

And I agree with you. The U.S. should get its military out, and you should get your morale-sapping pro-fundamentalist ideas out.

Generalisation. France is not the entire of Europe.
America has no anti-freedom of religion laws anywhere. Somewhere in Europe (France) there are strict laws against religious ritual. Therefore America has more freedom for people who want to practice their religion.

Saying America is more tolerant than Europe is ridiculous. I saw a story of CNBC recently where a woman living near to an immigrant trail had bought a gun and in the interview said she would shoot any immigrants entering the country. Why is there this kind of intolerance? Simple. Because Uncle Sam is a rich, white affluent male who wears the stars and stripes proudly whereas anyone who has a darker skin color is to be mistrusted.
Whatever. As if there were no skinheads and lunatics in Europe.

Whatever. As if there were no skinheads and lunatics in Europe.

You didn't respond to that argument.. you dismissed it..

And if they really really don't want to, that's fine with me, but it would be their loss.

Do you see Muslims as people who have control of their own nations?? Give me ONE Muslim nation that does not despise its ruler(s)/ruling party.

Believe me, if a Muslim-democracy was established, things would be very very different...

But, then, I am a Jew. Jews have always had a strong brotherhood relationship with Muslims - even though the news media would have people believe otherwise.

Really? :eek: :confused:

The funny thing is ... I, like most of my Jewish bretheren, believe that if a gun were put to our head and we were given the choice between Islam and Christianity, we'd choose Islam 99% of the time.

That's the thing about us, you know?

We know that there is no mediation between the individual and God. It's the thing that I have alway respected about Muslims - that they have a personal relationship with God, as opposed to believing there needs to be a "go-between".

If you're Muslim, I applaud you and wish you the best and all the blessings of Abraham. I also apologize for all of the hatred and ignorance that my country (the US) has given you.

I know that there is no god, save Allah, and I know that there is no mediator.

You truly are a great person. A Jew criticising the Media System that so stereotypes every Muslim is hard to come across these days - I respect you for your insightful views and reinstilling my belief that one day an Jew will be elected PM of Israel who will adopt a process of peaceful coexistance rather than furthering of hate.

You didn't respond to that argument.. you dismissed it..
I know that the US has racists, anti-Muslims, and other such people. This is a shame and we must work to eliminate it. I didn't dispute that. However Nazi Weaponized Virus attempts to make Europe seem morally superior to the US by highlighting American problems while ignoring European ones. For every anecdote in the US he hears or reads about I can cite one just as ugly in Europe. Bigotry exists everywhere and it needs to be fought throughout the world, not just the US. For their rhetorical purposes Europeans often portray America as having a monopoly on racism and hatred.

Do you see Muslims as people who have control of their own nations?? Give me ONE Muslim nation that does not despise its ruler(s)/ruling party.

Believe me, if a Muslim-democracy was established, things would be very very different...
I admire your moderate interpretation of Islam, your ideas I think will rejuvenate Islam's long tradition of scientific and cultural progress which has been buried by fundamentalists and apologists for fundamentalists. However presently moderates throughout the Islamic world are outnumbered and outmuscled... this was shown in Algeria where free elections were dominated by fundamentalists. Grassroots movements in Pakistan, Iraq, and other Muslim nations are constantly calling for Sharia and more extremism. Popular Islamic leaders who are free of US control, such as Mahathir Mohamed of Malaysia, have implemented more strict religious laws. Ordinary Muslims' tendency to embrace hardline conservative social policy is shows itself everywhere.

That is not to say Islamic nations shouldn't have democracy because we are afraid that fundamentalists will take control of the countries through legitimate elections... the current US-backed corrupt dictatorships are much worse and should be dismantled as soon as possible. I predict in that in a free election Muslims will initially elect a fundamentalist government but soon see the errors of their way and elect a more modern government. These stages of reform can be seen in Iran where a popular revolution overthrew American tyranny but soon people realized that their new fundamentalist government was just as bad, thus more and more Iranians are seeking conclusive reform and liberalization free of both fundamentalism and the US.

Intolerance is found everywhere. At least one group has come out against this, but only to save themselves fom being painted with the same brush. How long will it be before these 1st graders start blowing up buses here in the US?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594357/

Oh get off it already! Not all Muslims are "terrorists" who despise Bush and the West. There's this one Sunni Muslim girl in my History class, and she thinks Bush is just great!!!

Intolerance is found everywhere. At least one group has come out against this, but only to save themselves fom being painted with the same brush. How long will it be before these 1st graders start blowing up buses here in the US?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594357/

(In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful)
Abu Bakr Siddiq (r.a.) - The First Caliph of Islam
http://www.geocities.com/islaminme001/caliph1.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/islam.shtml][/url]
"The conduct of war
Islam bans the killing of non-combatants (Qur'an 2:190 above), or of a combatant who has been captured.
Muslims are forbidden from attacking wounded soldiers (unless the wounded person is still fighting).The Prophet's (pbuh) view of non-combatants is shown by a hadith in which Muhammad (pbuh) sees a woman killed in the battlefield and condemns the action.
When an enemy is defeated he should be made prisoner rather than be killed:
"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates." (Qur'an 47:4)
Abu Bakr (the First Caliph) gave these rules to an army he was sending to battle:
"Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path.
"You must not mutilate dead bodies.
"Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.
"Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful.
"Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food.
"You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"
A noble example of ideal Muslim conduct of war is the capture of Jerusalem by Saladin in 1187. Although a number of holy Muslim places had been violated by Christians, Saladin prohibited acts of vengeance, and his army was so disciplined that there were no deaths or violence after the city surrendered. The residents were taken prisoner, but their ransom was set at a token amount."



http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/people_of_the_book_the_muslims.html
The truth about Islam and Chirstians and Jews.
Islam is a religion of peace, love and tolerance. Today, however, some circles have been presenting a false image of Islam, as if there were conflict between Islam and the adherents of the two other monotheistic religions. Yet Islam's view of Jews and Christians, who are named "the People of the Book" in the Koran, is very friendly and tolerant.
It is evident there are ample grounds for an alliance between the "People of the Book" and Muslims. This is also very evident in the Koran. In the relevant verses of the Koran, there is a significant difference between the People of the Book and the idolaters. This is especially emphasized in the area of social life. For example, it is said concerning the idolaters: "(they) are unclean, so after this year they should not come near the Masjid al-Haram (Kaaba)." (Surat at-Tawba: 28) Idolaters are people who obey no divine law, have no moral precepts and who are capable of committing every kind of degrading and perverse action without hesitation.
But while they basically rely on God's revelation, the People of the Book have moral precepts and know what is lawful and what is not. For this reason, if one of the People of the Book cooks some food, it is lawful for Muslims to eat it. In the same way, permission has been given for a Muslim man to marry a woman from among the People of the Book. On this subject God commands:

Today all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Book is also lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste women from among the believers and chaste women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who disbelieve, his actions will come to nothing and in the hereafter he will be among the losers. (Surat al-Mai'da: 5)
Another important fact we learn from the Koran is that Muslims must respect Jewish and Christian places of worship. In the Koran, the places of worship of the People of the Book, i.e. monasteries, churches and synagogues, are mentioned as places of worship protected by God.

…if God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty. (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )

This verse shows all Muslims the importance of respecting and protecting the sanctuaries of Christians and Jews.
Indeed, in the Koran God commands Muslims not to harbor any enmity towards any people. In many verses, friendship is recommended, even with idolaters. God even refers to the idolaters at war with Muslims in this way: "If any of the idolaters ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe." (Surat at-Tawba: 6)

http://www.mediamonitors.net/harunyahya10.html
"This attitude towards the People of the Book developed during the years of the birth of Islam. At that time, Muslims were a minority, struggling to protect their faith and suffering oppression and torture from the pagans of the city of Mecca. Due to this persecution, some Muslims decided to flee Mecca and shelter in a safe country with a just ruler. The Prophet Muhammad told them to take refuge with King Negus, the Christian king of Ethiopia. The Muslims who followed this advice found a very fair administration that embraced them with love and respect when they went to Ethiopia. King Negus refused the demands of the pagan messengers who asked him to surrender the Muslims to them, and announced that Muslims could live freely in his country."
You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 82)

http://www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/p_judging.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sacrifice.htm
http://hss.fullerton.edu/comparative/abraham_religions.pdf

Good books: Towards Understanding the Quran by Sayyid Abul A’la Mawdudi

Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths Bruce Feiler

Walking the Bible, Bruce Feiler


The corruption of Islam across the centuries has been as complete as the corruption of Christianity, and of Judaism.
It is merely the type of corruption, the foul diseased minds that have twisted the defensive nature of Islam because it was born in a time of turmoil, into an edict of hatred and war.
Islam seeks peace especially with its Christian and Jewish cousins.
Alluja Ackbar.

Do you see Muslims as people who have control of their own nations?? Give me ONE Muslim nation that does not despise its ruler(s)/ruling party.

Believe me, if a Muslim-democracy was established, things would be very very different...
Kyrgyzstan,
Background:
A Central Asian country of incredible natural beauty and proud nomadic traditions, Kyrgyzstan was annexed by Russia in 1864; it achieved independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. Current concerns include: privatization of state-owned enterprises, expansion of democracy and political freedoms, interethnic relations, and combating terrorism.
Religions:
Muslim 75%, Russian Orthodox 20%, other 5%
Tajikistan
Religions:
Sunni Muslim 85%, Shi'a Muslim 5%, other 10% (2003 est.)

Indonesia
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Turkey

A lot of people hate thier leaders, the nations listed above are all Muslim Democracies.
You cant be an American if you think just because you get tovote means you like your choices.

Indonesia's government is not Muslim.. The government is secular; the people are Muslims..

Pakistan?.. Oh please.. They are tyrannically ruled by an absolute dictator who hinds behind the veil of democracy... A man they loathe..

Turkey, like Indonesia, has a firmly secular government.. The people are Muslims, the government is secular.

As for the others, my knowledge of their form of government is shallow. I will study their governmental policies and come back to you..

Indonesia's government is not Muslim.. The government is secular; the people are Muslims..

Pakistan?.. Oh please.. They are tyrannically ruled by an absolute dictator who hinds behind the veil of democracy... A man they loathe..

Turkey, like Indonesia, has a firmly secular government.. The people are Muslims, the government is secular.

As for the others, my knowledge of their form of government is shallow. I will study their governmental policies and come back to you..
Greenmanbry, you cannot have a Theocratic Democracy, a secular Government is the only true Democracy.

And your opinion
of Pakistan does not change the FACT it is a Democracy.
Your simple minded idea of Religous Democracy where everyone loves their government exists nowhere on earth, with any faith.

A nation calling itself a democracy or a republic does not make it democratic... the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a dictatorship with no free elections, a leader who arbitrarily gives himself term extentions, and a legislature with no real power.

Nah its ok, Musharraf is an ally in the War on Terror therefore he is devoid of any critiscm - though I guarantee you if we did fight him he would instantly become the most evil man in the World who makes prisoners in his prisons watch 'Das Boot' (the extended extended edition) and mass graves would start popping up everywhere.

Villification of the enemy is so attainable by the Government it leaves you wondering, do we really have as 'free' a media as we make out we do?

Nah its ok, Musharraf is an ally in the War on Terror therefore he is devoid of any critiscm - though I guarantee you if we did fight him he would instantly become the most evil man in the World who makes prisoners in his prisons watch 'Das Boot' (the extended extended edition) and mass graves would start popping up everywhere.

Villification of the enemy is so attainable by the Government it leaves you wondering, do we really have as 'free' a media as we make out we do?
No NWV we dont.

Unfortunately, these "Muslims" ruling the Saudi ideology have a very strong grip on the nation. They can easily denounce anyone as an unbeliever, and putting a bounty on his head. If they do this to members of the Saudi royal family, the royal family will turn against its own citizens in an attempt to wipe out the Wahabbi sect. This will encourage a revolt (with possible foreign aid), plunging Saudi Arabia into chaos..

And who will take over??.. You guessed it.. the Wahabbis..

What the Arab and Muslim world needs is for these despots ruling it, from Indonesia to Pakistan to Saudi to Morocco, to be deposed, and open-minded, devoted, tolerant Muslim leaders to take their place. Muslims that instill democracy not to avoid human rights agencies, but because of their love for their people.. Of course, many are greedy, powerhungry bastards, so that probably won't happen, unless a miracle takes place..


You're an idiot ! Democracy is a tyrany of the masses. A republic with a republic rule of law is superior.

Anyway, I have a business proposition. The U.S., Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iraq have made a bunch of Islamic Jihad rag head retards-- some have some really funny looking infant skull deformities made by these guys :

http://www.us7thcavalry.com/

You can see some funny Islamic Jihad rag head retards here :

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

The business deal is: would anyone like to help manufacture more depleted uranium ammunition ? It is useful in war and creates a health care industry after the war is over ! WIN-WIN !!! :-)

DU-- make a Islamic Jihad rag head retard today ! HA HA HA HA !!!

You truly are a great person. A Jew criticising the Media System that so stereotypes every Muslim is hard to come across these days - I respect you for your insightful views and reinstilling my belief that one day an Jew will be elected PM of Israel who will adopt a process of peaceful coexistance rather than furthering of hate.

Unfortunately, Jews are a vast minority and, thus, are cow'd by those in power. We are extremely few in number and the going idea is to not "rock the boat" because there are so few of us.

I, for one, will not live in fear. I know the Islamic faith, I know Muslims, and I support their cause and their right to live as they choose and I have far more fear of Christians than I ever will have of Muslims.

Unfortunately, the media is not Jewish controlled ... if it were, things would be a lot more funny.

Anyway, I have a business proposition. The U.S., Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iraq have made a bunch of Islamic Jihad rag head retards-- some have some really funny looking infant skull deformities made by these guys :

http://www.us7thcavalry.com/

You can see some funny Islamic Jihad rag head retards here :

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

The business deal is: would anyone like to help manufacture more depleted uranium ammunition ? It is useful in war and creates a health care industry after the war is over ! WIN-WIN !!! :-)

DU-- make a Islamic Jihad rag head retard today ! HA HA HA HA !!!


It is an extreme shame that a poor English-speaking, shallow, racist idiot like you is still classified as a "homo sapien" and not a "Callicebus moloch"..

. . .
child rape has been accepted in Islam since the time of the Prophet when Mohammed married six year old Ayesha)
. . .


Generally it is accepted that the marriage was at age 12. Regardless of that point, the fact is that the marriage was consummated when she was 15.


. . .
Christian society has been de-religionized, and I think for the better. We no longer go on crusades or stone adulterous wives or execute girls who have premarital sex.
. . .

To commit stoning requires that their be 4 reliable witnesses who have seen the actual act occuring. Not just "I saw so and so enter into a building", or I heard from blah that blah. Four people who are willing to swear on their souls that they saw intercourse occuring. The penalty is the same for both genders be they male or female. Reliable meaning of strong reputation, and acceptable by the general populance.

The purpose of stoning is that it is believed that suffereing on this plane of existance will eliminate suffereing in the afterlife. They have the choice to be stoned now to eleviate suffering, or to suffer more in the afterlife. Now while being stoned, the guilty party can ask for it to be stopped at anytime and it will be. While carrying out the stoning it it meant to be small pebbles that are used, about the size of fingernails.

Anything that I have said that is correct comes from Allah, anything that I said is erronous comes from myself and I take responsibility for it.

Anyone on here who wants a copy of the Quran in English (Yusaf Ali Interpretation), let me know by sending me a telegram, since usually when I can log back onto the forum the entire conversation tends to leap beyond the 6 page limit and I can't find it again. I can arrange to have one mailed to you. (Out of my own pocket, so it's free for you.)

It is an extreme shame that a poor English-speaking, shallow, racist idiot like you is still classified as a "homo sapien" and not a "Callicebus moloch"..
Biz is biz !

Here tap your feet to this jolly tune, calm down, and then read on...

http://www.us7thcavalry.com/

Now, let's talk about making more DU ammo ! Iran is full of Basij that will require a bunch of DU ! HUNTER IN THE SKY AC130 has a new lighter ammo rack and can carry more ammo !!!

DU means dead enemy, sick friend and foe, and Islamic Arab Jihad rag head retards with leukemia ! Depleted Uranium has ELIMINATED the POST WAR ECONOMIC DOWN TURN !!! We RAMP UP into health care !!! Ha ! Ha ! Let's get some of the biz before WHO gets it all ! C'mon they're only Jihad rag heads, what'd'ya say ? This is one GREAT DEAL ! HA HA HA !!!

Did you see all those funny pictures !!! Let's party !

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

Generally it is accepted that the marriage was at age 12. Regardless of that point, the fact is that the marriage was consummated when she was 15.

One thing I should also suggest people remember, with regards to this issue of marriage at extremely young ages...

I would suggest that the Americans and Europeans in this forum undertake in-depth research into their own genealogies. I think people would be VERY surprised about some of the marriage practices that took place even in the USA. A member of my family is researching our own genealogy and has discovered instances in the 19th century of things like first cousins marrying and even one woman who did marry as young as 12.

That the same happened in Mohammed's time isn't too surprising when you think about it in that context.

Now for some notes on the other things I've seen in this thread.

It does seem to me that unfortunately, a minority of fanatics has got a very large amount of control of Islam, in terms of worldly power. I would suspect that more kindhearted individuals are in the majority, but they just don't seem to shout as loudly as the radical Islamists do. I do wish there would be more done within the Islamic world to change this situation, and sometimes in the U.S. it causes a lot of frustration that we don't very often see or hear about such efforts. They may be out there--but it just doesn't seem to get much in the way of publicity.

One thing I firmly believe--while God may wish us to respond to Him in certain ways, and has a hand in devising rituals that are supposed to help us in that (NOT unduly confine our thought--our rationality is one of our greatest gifts from Him), by nature, we as human beings find ways to screw things up. Thus, institutions that were put into place for a good purpose have a habit of going corrupt...especially when people fail to acknowledge that such is a possibility. This means that everybody who participates in a religion needs to have constant vigilance to make sure that corruptions (such as people using religion to inflict misery upon others) do not get into that religion's institutions. The problem is, I think that some people get the institutions mixed up with God Himself. God is infallible--that does NOT mean that our attempts to respond to Him are.

This is why I say that I wish I saw more active efforts at reform of Islam. I've seen some people here who have said some very noble things about tolerance, but you just don't seem to hear about mass movements in that direction. You don't hear very often of major religious leaders and so on trying to change the trends towards radicalization. This is why I ask those more knowledgeable--what substantial things are being done within the Islamic world to overturn such attitudes of hatred?

For a moment now I'll turn to my own religion. I've seen a lot of anti-Christian attitudes expressed in this thread...and I've got to admit, when I look at some of the behavior and attitudes that sometimes get "justified" under the Christian name, it's no wonder. This seems to happen with just about any religion. But what I'd like to remind people here is of the same thing I just discussed in conjunction with Islam. Please do not get certain intolerant individuals mixed up with the entire religion. I don't ever recall that sort of attitude being sanctioned in the Bible. I even seem to remember an important commandment that we "judge not lest [we] be judged." This is because ALL of us, as human beings, undoubtedly err in some fashion or another--therefore it's tremendously arrogant to pass judgments on others, especially blanket judgments over entire groups. (And even in judging an individual you've got a problem because you aren't omniscient nor infinitely wise in order to make the proper decisions on people.)

Some of you have said you've had some bad experiences with Christians, and that's affected your opinions of the group. Even as a Christian I'm perfectly willing to say that some of us have done some pretty reprehensible things. I'm sure I myself have done some things that didn't reflect well upon Christianity. And I think sometimes those of us who want tolerance don't always speak up as loudly as we could or do all that we should (so understand that the criticism I leveled against some moderate Muslims is one that I would even apply to my own religion, and undoubtedly even to myself at times). But again, please don't paint everybody with the same brush. Please try instead to get to know people as individuals, and try to understand what underlies their actions. You'll find, I think, that there are a good share of tolerant individuals who are genuinely trying to lead a right life (even if they DO make mistakes from time to time).

I would suspect that more kindhearted individuals are in the majority, but they just don't seem to shout as loudly as the radical Islamists do. I do wish there would be more done within the Islamic world to change this situation, and sometimes in the U.S. it causes a lot of frustration that we don't very often see or hear about such efforts. They may be out there--but it just doesn't seem to get much in the way of publicity.

This is why I say that I wish I saw more active efforts at reform of Islam. I've seen some people here who have said some very noble things about tolerance, but you just don't seem to hear about mass movements in that direction. You don't hear very often of major religious leaders and so on trying to change the trends towards radicalization. This is why I ask those more knowledgeable -- what substantial things are being done within the Islamic world to overturn such attitudes of hatred?

Frankly put, not much. While the majority follows the Prophet's own advice (to be moderate in everything, in your food intake, in your sleep, in your work, and in your religion), anyone who speaks against the radical minority is immediately denounced as a heretic.

(Does that ring any bells? ;)... Oh yes, the Inquisition by the Catholic Church)

If you're denounced as a heretic, a person who has lost faith in God and Islam (although it might be completely untrue), the radicals will hunt you down and kill you. So you must flee to a Western nation.

If you do that, the chances of preaching Moderate Islam are virtually nil, since all publications will be denied access into the Middle East..

And frankly, the hatred and rage is not only felt within the radical minority. The actions of the United States and several... other... regional powers is the main cause of extreme hatred. By preaching moderate Islam, you are not curing the disease, just treating its side-effects, and that's not healthy either..

Again, unless a revolution occurs is the Arab world.. a revolution that comes from within not from America or any other country, but from within.. only then can Islam really destroy this demented vision portrayed by these radicals, and ultimately destroy American and Western stereotypes of how "vicious" Islam is..

Faker than Hollywood - Ignored... permanently..

Oh, and Nutrini.. what you said is correct I believe..

I wish I had a dime for every time someone associated the Islamic Sharia with "barbaric" acts.. But when you get to know the exact criteria for such punishments, it's completely different..

A Western myth.. pure and simple.

Frankly put, not much. While the majority follows the Prophet's own advice (to be moderate in everything, in your food intake, in your sleep, in your work, and in your religion), anyone who speaks against the radical minority is immediately denounced as a heretic.

(Does that ring any bells? ;)... Oh yes, the Inquisition by the Catholic Church)

That's actually the exact time period and scenario within the Christian church that I often compare the current crisis within Islam to. It's strikingly similar when you look at it...while some of the radicals use the term "crusaders" against the West, it seems that's exactly what they themselves are doing. It's the exact same pattern of abuses. Which leads to some of what I'll say next...

If you're denounced as a heretic, a person who has lost faith in God and Islam (although it might be completely untrue), the radicals will hunt you down and kill you. So you must flee to a Western nation.

If you do that, the chances of preaching Moderate Islam are virtually nil, since all publications will be denied access into the Middle East..

And frankly, the hatred and rage is not only felt within the radical minority. The actions of the United States and several... other... regional powers is the main cause of extreme hatred. By preaching moderate Islam, you are not curing the disease, just treating its side-effects, and that's not healthy either..

Again, unless a revolution occurs is the Arab world.. a revolution that comes from within not from America or any other country, but from within.. only then can Islam really destroy this demented vision portrayed by these radicals, and ultimately destroy American and Western stereotypes of how "vicious" Islam is..

While you and I come from differing political backgrounds, as for religion I do agree that any change within the Islamic community of faith is going to have to be a sincere one from within. Nothing pertaining to the spiritual can be imposed from the outside.

To continue the comparison with the Inquisition and abuses by the Catholic Church, eventually Martin Luther did try to take a stand with the Protestant Reformation. That particular revolution involved a lot of bloodshed, and sad to say, it seems like there's a big risk of that with Islam if a similar reform movement gets started. (Note that I am aware Protestantism has since suffered a lot of splits, problems, and abuses of its own--I am simply comparing the two particular periods of history.) I guess it'll take a large group of people willing to run the risks of persecution, even though they are severe. It seems to me, in fact, that such is the TRUE definition of a martyr: a person who dies for their beliefs--upholding the law of God (which is where the terrorists fail--they only follow the parts they LIKE).

Faker than Hollywood - Ignored... permanently..

I second that motion.

Frankly put, not much. While the majority follows the Prophet's own advice (to be moderate in everything, in your food intake, in your sleep, in your work, and in your religion), anyone who speaks against the radical minority is immediately denounced as a heretic.

(Does that ring any bells? ;)... Oh yes, the Inquisition by the Catholic Church)

If you're denounced as a heretic, a person who has lost faith in God and Islam (although it might be completely untrue), the radicals will hunt you down and kill you. So you must flee to a Western nation.

If you do that, the chances of preaching Moderate Islam are virtually nil, since all publications will be denied access into the Middle East..

And frankly, the hatred and rage is not only felt within the radical minority. The actions of the United States and several... other... regional powers is the main cause of extreme hatred. By preaching moderate Islam, you are not curing the disease, just treating its side-effects, and that's not healthy either..

Again, unless a revolution occurs is the Arab world.. a revolution that comes from within not from America or any other country, but from within.. only then can Islam really destroy this demented vision portrayed by these radicals, and ultimately destroy American and Western stereotypes of how "vicious" Islam is..

Faker than Hollywood - Ignored... permanently..

These are all good points, but they raise some questions in my mind:

1) What are the United States and other targets of radical Islamic terrorism supposed to do while we are waiting for this "revolution from within" to occur? Sit back and wait to be attacked again? Capitulate to the terrorists?

2) If there are such impediments to moderate Muslims effecting change, how is this revolution supposed to be brought about?

1) What are the United States and other targets of radical Islamic terrorism supposed to do while we are waiting for this "revolution from within" to occur? Sit back and wait to be attacked again? Capitulate to the terrorists?

A very good question.. What should the United States do?...

Ignore them..

As absurd as the idea sounds, these people are power hungry radicals who want their names in newspapers and on TV.. who want the world to recognize what they are doing and even capitulate to their will..

But if you ignore them, and that includes pulling out of Muslim lands, that will leave them with no enemy to fight, no audience to which they could relay their message.. We are doing exactly that.. whenever a radical calls for death and destruction, we literally laugh at him, and so do many moderate religious clerics..

Ok, here's the whole story from an Arab viewpoint.. wipe your brain clear of anti-Muslim stereotypes and start reading:

America has engaged in some reprehensible actions against the Muslim world, and so has the West as a whole.. From colonization to the Balfour Declaration to the infamous Sykes-Picot agreement to the 1979 proxy war in Afghanistan to the 1980s affiliation with the Saddam regime, to the installation of despots in the Middle East, to the systematic destruction of all Arab and Muslim countries on the planet.. (2 down, 2 upcoming wars, another couple of dozens to go)

This has created a huge wave of anti-Western sentiments. America has installed these regimes for the Arabs, they fed them weapons, and the regimes in turn created these "radical groups" and supported them to keep their peoples occupied.. Now these radical groups are gaining popularity and are seen as the only way of counter-attacking the US and the West..

Basically, America's plans went sour.. and they are now "paying the price" as the radicals put it..

Does that mean moderate Muslims do not hate the US?.. No.. many moderate Muslims, especially educated ones, dislike the US and the West for the aforementioned reasons.. but they are kept silent by the governments..

======================================================

2) If there are such impediments to moderate Muslims effecting change, how is this revolution supposed to be brought about?

Could a Frenchman living in the times of the monarchy have envisioned democracy in France? Not likely..

It will no doubt cost a lot of lives, and the brain-washed Arab and Muslim youth are ignoring politics.. are not concerned with anything but stupid soccer games and dating.. that is the reason for the backwardness of the Arab world..

So.. when will a revolution occur?.. Not soon.. probably in a decade or two..

By whom will this revolution be initiated?.. A very small group of concerned, open-minded, and educated intellectuals

How?.. Only time will tell.. but it's not a matter of overthrowing a regime and sitting on the throne... that won't happen..

==============================

That's only the tip of the iceberg.. there are many issues that need to be attended to.. do you have an MSN account? If so, I would be gald to talk to you and answer all of your questions.

A very good question.. What should the United States do?...

Ignore them..

As absurd as the idea sounds, these people are power hungry radicals who want their names in newspapers and on TV.. who want the world to recognize what they are doing and even capitulate to their will..

But if you ignore them, and that includes pulling out of Muslim lands, that will leave them with no enemy to fight, no audience to which they could relay their message.. We are doing exactly that.. whenever a radical calls for death and destruction, we literally laugh at him, and so do many moderate religious clerics..

I don't see how that leaves them with no enemy to fight. They will still demonize the U.S. and the West, for the reasons you outline below. I think it's almost a given that they will continue to attack us. I'm certainly not willing to bet my life that they won't, and any Western leader cannot in good conscience bet the lives of so many of their people on it.


America has engaged in...the systematic destruction of all Arab and Muslim countries on the planet.. (2 down, 2 upcoming wars, another couple of dozens to go)

Come on now, that last part is nothing but speculation. Which two countries are "upcoming?" And, dozens more to go? I don't think so.


That's only the tip of the iceberg.. there are many issues that need to be attended to.. do you have an MSN account? If so, I would be gald to talk to you and answer all of your questions.

I do, but don't want to post it here. How can I get it to you without doing that?

Islam is intolerant and violent. Since when did you see Mother Teresa's nuns crashing airplanes into buildings or stoning people to death? Islam must be defeated and Muslims must be converted. Islam only offers slavery. It is evil and Muhammed was NOT a prophet. Curses be upon him!

Islam is intolerant and violent. Since when did you see Mother Teresa's nuns crashing airplanes into buildings or stoning people to death? Islam must be defeated and Muslims must be converted. Islam only offers slavery. It is evil and Muhammed was NOT a prophet. Curses be upon him!

Well Mother Teresa is known for supporting the Lebanese Christian phalaganist militias.

I do, but don't want to post it here. How can I get it to you without doing that?

Telegram Me (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=greenmanbry)

Answering those questions here may drag the topic way out of context.. therefore I will discuss the questions with you on MSN..

Fascist Weasels - Thanks for sharing that.. You make the civilized Western World very proud :)

By the way, I urge you to attempt to convert me.. you'll regret it.. :p

Islam is intolerant and violent. Since when did you see Mother Teresa's nuns crashing airplanes into buildings or stoning people to death? Islam must be defeated and Muslims must be converted. Islam only offers slavery. It is evil and Muhammed was NOT a prophet. Curses be upon him!

I don't remember Teresa starting her own religion, either.

Know what I DO remember? The Crusades. Inquisition. Westboro Cult.

Any of those things ring a bell?

Greenmanbry, you cannot have a Theocratic Democracy, a secular Government is the only true Democracy.

And your opinion
of Pakistan does not change the FACT it is a Democracy.
Your simple minded idea of Religous Democracy where everyone loves their government exists nowhere on earth, with any faith.

I was re-reading this thread and I wanted to point out that I worded very poorly this statement and was not attempting to imply that Green was himself simple minded, I was (in my own simple minded way) trying to say that the idea of a Religious functioning Democracy is simplistic and unrealisable, I however failed in making that the clear point of my statement and succeded in being insulting instead. Again my mistake, I log on to NS late so I rarely am firing all cylinders.
Thats all.

Powerless fake message board posting academia !!! The Islamic Jihad rag heads will still have leukemia ! HA HA ! To bad y'all will miss out on the Depleted Uranium health care RAMP ! HA HA HA HA !!! Look how much money can be made from Dr. Jawad Al-Ali traveling freak show deformed arabic infants -- examples, he says, of the surge in birth defects in southern Iraq that he blames on U.S. depleted uranium.
Piles of money can be made off of Six-year-old Fatma Rakwan, being held by her mother at the Basra Hospital for Maternity and Children, was recently diagnosed with leukemia. HA HA HA ! US rules ! US rules !

http://www.us7thcavalry.com/

HA HA HA !!! HA HA ! HA !

Powerless fake message board posting academia !!! The Islamic Jihad rag heads will still have leukemia ! HA HA ! To bad y'all will miss out on the Depleted Uranium health care RAMP ! HA HA HA HA !!! Look how much money can be made from Dr. Jawad Al-Ali traveling freak show deformed arabic infants -- examples, he says, of the surge in birth defects in southern Iraq that he blames on U.S. depleted uranium.
Piles of money can be made off of Six-year-old Fatma Rakwan, being held by her mother at the Basra Hospital for Maternity and Children, was recently diagnosed with leukemia. HA HA HA ! US rules ! US rules !

http://www.us7thcavalry.com/

HA HA HA !!! HA HA ! HA !

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Troll.jpg

In fact, this claim is supported by a Belief-O-Matic test I took a while ago.. After inputting my beliefs as a Muslim, it told me I was (100%) Muslim and (100%) Orthodox Jew.. :)

Was this done online? If so, have you got the web address for it?

To commit stoning requires that their be 4 reliable witnesses who have seen the actual act occuring. Not just "I saw so and so enter into a building", or I heard from blah that blah. Four people who are willing to swear on their souls that they saw intercourse occuring. The penalty is the same for both genders be they male or female. Reliable meaning of strong reputation, and acceptable by the general populance.
The penalty may theoretically apply for both males or females but in the modern practice of Sharia in such places as Nigeria or Pakistan there is much sexism in that it is hard for a woman to convince a court she was raped... most of the time she is dismissed as a prostitute without even a legitimate hearing... meanwhile the males most often get by without any penalties. This is rooted also in the Sharia which says women's testimony in court is worth less than men's.


The purpose of stoning is that it is believed that suffereing on this plane of existance will eliminate suffereing in the afterlife. They have the choice to be stoned now to eleviate suffering, or to suffer more in the afterlife. Now while being stoned, the guilty party can ask for it to be stopped at anytime and it will be. While carrying out the stoning it it meant to be small pebbles that are used, about the size of fingernails.

Again, the theory may be that the punishment is at the guilty party's request and the guilty party can have it stopped but in practice this is not the case. There is the honor of the guilty party's family on the line and family members do not hesitate to condone death for a family member they perceive to have comitted some moral crime. It is hard to stop a stoning if a village's Sharia court, all the villagers, and the guilty's family all demand blood from the guilty party. Also troubling is the practice of honor killings in the middle east in which brothers, fathers, cousins, etc. kill a female family member who 'dishonored' the family by getting raped.

Was this done online? If so, have you got the web address for it?

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

The one and only Belief-o-Matic. ;)

Enjoy!

What is your theological take on blowing up pussy ?

http://www.irna.ir/occasion/basij78/

How about the Creator God's position on the Iranian clergy which counducted the War beginning in 1982 rejected professional military doctrine. This was because they felt God endorsed their struggle and because they had not professional military training. The lack of modern weapons was another factor here. One of the major tactics they adopted was "human-wave" attacks. Pasdaran forces and Basij volunteers as young as 9 years old were used to sweep pver over minefields and entrenched positions developed by the more professional Iraqi military. The Iranians lacked the equipment to breach Iraqi minefields and having realtively few few tanks did not want to put them at rusk. The Iranian clergy this relied heavily on human-wave tatics, often involving children who were apparently considered expendable. One East European journalist reports seeing "tens of thousands of children, roped together in groups of about 20 to prevent the faint-hearted from deserting, make such an attack." A HBC reader writes, "Not only Iranian boys were sent against the Iraqi possitions, but also a large number of girls. The Mullahs who stayed safely in the mosques told the children that they would go to paradise. For the Mullahs girls were of little consequence." A reader reports, "I remember television and newspaperreports at the time. Before going to her sacrifice, the Mullahs gave the children a paradise key as a symbol of martyrdom . The number of these girls killed were very substatial. Their special assignment was mine clearance at the front lines. The boys were more commonly used in human wave assaults on Iraqi positions."
http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/iraq/war-iiw.html

The penalty may theoretically apply for both males or females but in the modern practice of Sharia in such places as Nigeria or Pakistan there is much sexism in that it is hard for a woman to convince a court she was raped... most of the time she is dismissed as a prostitute without even a legitimate hearing... meanwhile the males most often get by without any penalties.

Pardon, I thought this was a topic on the teachings of Islam and not on what occurs by misguided individuals. I do not have enough information/knowledge to make a honest answer on what occurs in Nigeria/Pakistan/Rest of the world, as I have spent all my life in the USA, with brief stints in India (summer vacations). As such I will have to bow out of such discussions, and be a silent observor.

This is rooted also in the Sharia which says women's testimony in court is worth less than men's.

According to Sharia a woman has the right to have a witness with her for business dealings, to prevent her from being taken advantage of. She doesn't necessarily have to have one though. The uninformed people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) often interpret this as saying that she has less testimony in a court of law.

From what I understand, most of these "Sharia" courts are nothing of the kind in this present day and age though. They generally are just courts held by people who think they have knowledge and who have the right to judge. I personally would be scared witless to make a judgement on Sharia topics, for fear of my personal soul. At times I'm scared to even reply to an issue on here for fear of giving out misguided information.

Anything that I say that is correct comes from God, everything that I say that is incorrect comes from myself.

Pardon, I thought this was a topic on the teachings of Islam and not on what occurs by misguided individuals. I do not have enough information/knowledge to make a honest answer on what occurs in Nigeria/Pakistan/Rest of the world, as I have spent all my life in the USA, with brief stints in India (summer vacations). As such I will have to bow out of such discussions, and be a silent observor.



According to Sharia a woman has the right to have a witness with her for business dealings, to prevent her from being taken advantage of. She doesn't necessarily have to have one though. The uninformed people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) often interpret this as saying that she has less testimony in a court of law.

From what I understand, most of these "Sharia" courts are nothing of the kind in this present day and age though. They generally are just courts held by people who think they have knowledge and who have the right to judge. I personally would be scared witless to make a judgement on Sharia topics, for fear of my personal soul. At times I'm scared to even reply to an issue on here for fear of giving out misguided information.

Anything that I say that is correct comes from God, everything that I say that is incorrect comes from myself.

Yeah, yeah. You must have a brain and some thoughts-- how do you feel about blowing up pussy ?

One East European journalist reports seeing "tens of thousands of children, roped together in groups of about 20 to prevent the faint-hearted from deserting, make such an attack." A HBC reader writes, "Not only Iranian boys were sent against the Iraqi possitions, but also a large number of girls. The Mullahs who stayed safely in the mosques told the children that they would go to paradise. For the Mullahs girls were of little consequence." A reader reports, "I remember television and newspaperreports at the time. Before going to her sacrifice, the Mullahs gave the children a paradise key as a symbol of martyrdom . The number of these girls killed were very substatial. Their special assignment was mine clearance at the front lines.

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Troll.jpg

Kalifornia ! What doyou think about Iranian Mullahs using pussy to clear Iraqi mine fields ? HA HA HA !!!

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Troll.jpg

Kalifornia ! What do you think about Iranian Mullahs using pussy to clear Iraqi mine fields ? HA HA HA !!!

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Yeah, yeah. You must have a brain and some thoughts-- how do you feel about blowing up pussy ?

One East European journalist reports seeing "tens of thousands of children, roped together in groups of about 20 to prevent the faint-hearted from deserting, make such an attack." A HBC reader writes, "Not only Iranian boys were sent against the Iraqi possitions, but also a large number of girls. The Mullahs who stayed safely in the mosques told the children that they would go to paradise. For the Mullahs girls were of little consequence." A reader reports, "I remember television and newspaperreports at the time. Before going to her sacrifice, the Mullahs gave the children a paradise key as a symbol of martyrdom . The number of these girls killed were very substatial. Their special assignment was mine clearance at the front lines.
How do you Minutia driven nut cases feel about blowing up pussy and using pussy to clear mine fields ?

I'll go first. I think the Islamic Jihad rag head muslim mullahs are guilty of being a waste of good pussy, but the group bondage thing and the Paradise Keyes were kind of kinky...