NationStates Jolt Archive

Everyone knows them, they are the far right, they constantly complain that we are letting far too many people into the country, and that eventually our entire economy will collapse because of it. Yet however much data is presented before them about the benefits of hard working economic migrants (who contribute a hell of a lot to the business sector) they still maintain thier views.

Are Conservatives just against ANY change? Does thier brain forbid them to question any 2 or 300 year old law? Or is it just racism?

Discuss.

I love the "But they're stealing our jobs!" argument. It just shows how little logic is actually being applied.

a) most of the jobs they do are shitty jobs that most right-wing nutters wouldn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
b) if we rallied to force companies to pay immigrants a fair wage, then they'd lose all incentive to pick immigrants over native folk
c) the afformentioned more people working = better economy

Its been proven in numerous studies.

The benefits of Immigration to America are immense, I mean just look at some of the great immigrants who contributed to the arts, music, movies, business, technology, science and of course the mafia :)

immigration into canada or the uk... if u're looking to work... u need a visa... the application for a workers visa requires a confirmed job offer... to aquire the job offer it has to be confirmed that no citizen of the country (ok, I know technically the UK isnt one country, but for ease we'll asume it is) u are entering could do the job, ie that u are the best person to employ...

if our governments are happy to do that, why are they complaining about losing jobs to foreigners?

I have no problem with immigrants at all, but I'm a leftie.

I do have a problem however with emigrants.

Here in Scotland, we've got a barely positive population growth rate, and that's only due to the immigrants coming in. Birth rates are too low to sustain the population, and emigration is taking all our highly trained workers, especially the medical profession.

What do you think of blockading emigrants? We've got free education in Scotland, if I had my way, anyone who wants to leave to go to the USA, Australia or Canada etcetera for better pay should have to pay back the cost of their post 16 education.

Immigrants are good. We wouldn't produce enough doctors even if they couldn't emigrate, so we would still have to import them from India. Of course that leaves India short of doctors, soo they'd also have to stop their people from leaving and so on.

I have nothing wrong with legal immigrants...for the umpteenth time, as I've repeated this in at least 2 other "immigrant" threads...it is the illegal immigrants I have a problem with.

I find the yank knee-jerk reactions to immigration one of life's little sweet ironies. This from a country where everyone is an immigrant, except the natives. (But the native American thing is a whole other thread methinks...)

Here in Scotland, we've got a barely positive population growth rate, and that's only due to the immigrants coming in. Birth rates are too low to sustain the population, and emigration is taking all our highly trained workers, especially the medical profession.

What do you think of blockading emigrants? We've got free education in Scotland, if I had my way, anyone who wants to leave to go to the USA, Australia or Canada etcetera for better pay should have to pay back the cost of their post 16 education.

Perhaps they're leaving for a reason. I'm Scotish too and let me tell you I ain't staying here. The weather's crap and the govt is oppressive, socialist and incompetent. I'm leaving and if you get in the way I'll shoot you. You don't own me and have no right to tell me what to do. To suggest I should pay for schooling I was forced to go to is idiotic.

I have nothing wrong with legal immigrants...for the umpteenth time, as I've repeated this in at least 2 other "immigrant" threads...it is the illegal immigrants I have a problem with.
Were the founding fathers legal or illegal? (Tricky one, think about it. Answers on my desk tomorrow morning, or detention!)

Were the founding fathers legal or illegal? (Tricky one, think about it. Answers on my desk tomorrow morning, or detention!)

Actually...no..they were not illegal..they were given rights as British citizens in a land claimed by Britain, same with the Dutch in Pennsylvania, the Swedes in New Jersey, the Spanish in Florida, and the Scots in North Carolina. Now..as an Native American...the term "invader" is more applicable rather then "illegal immigrant"

yep lol

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.
Robert Orben

I have a comic on my HD. I cant post it, but the jist of it was that if all illegal immigrants were expelled unemployment would fall to zero in 4 years. then the "Commoners" would be able to ask any price to do the jobs no one else wanted to do which is why republicans dont relaly turf out all illegals. Because it would muck up the economy. And thier house servants would be mouthy with lots of bling. He'll I'd clean someones house for a $100 an hour. Suddenly itd be impossible to be a domestic. And corporations would be shipping in pickup truck loads of indian I.T workers :D

yep lol

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.
Robert Orben

I have a comic on my HD. I cant post it, but the jist of it was that if all illegal immigrants were expelled unemployment would fall to zero in 4 years. then the "Commoners" would be able to ask any price to do the jobs no one else wanted to do which is why republicans dont relaly turf out all illegals. Because it would muck up the economy. And thier house servants would be mouthy with lots of bling. He'll I'd clean someones house for a $100 an hour. Suddenly itd be impossible to be a domestic. And corporations would be shipping in pickup truck loads of indian I.T workers :D
I know (hope!) you were joking but just in case, you realise that chucking all the immigrants out would mean they wouldn't be buying anything so some people would lose their jobs. They aren't just workers, they're customers too.

Lets not destroy myths lets destroy any who trys to cross the border illegaly.

Change BAAADDD!

I find the yank knee-jerk reactions to immigration one of life's little sweet ironies. This from a country where everyone is an immigrant, except the natives. (But the native American thing is a whole other thread methinks...)




There was no USA when the white english speaking settlers got here. This country (THE USA) was built by and for white english Christians. It was made better by various other whites (Italians, Irish, Germans, etc). Because they were and still are hard working people. This country even had the Naturalization Act of 1790 whereby on white people could gain citizenship, which makes it clear who the founders intended this country for.

Notice I say country, not land. The land was obviously here when we got here from England, the nation was not. We took the land from the indians, and we built OUR nation on it. That's the truth, plain and simple.

I agree with the benefits of immigration … that they bring a lot to the society that they move into

But I do think illegal immigration is bad … you are choosing to move to a country where you see the benefits from, you should be respecting their laws and rights (immigration rules are designed to help the native country … at least they are supposed to (I don’t feel like arguing weather the CURRENT laws are just or not)

(I am sure I said something wrong that will be misconstrued … I always do)

Basically immigration is good illegal immigration is bad :)

There was no USA when the white english speaking settlers got here. This country (THE USA) was built by and for white english Christians. It was made better by various other whites (Italians, Irish, Germans, etc). Because they were and still are hard working people. This country even had the Naturalization Act of 1790 whereby on white people could gain citizenship, which makes it clear who the founders intended this country for.

Notice I say country, not land. The land was obviously here when we got here from England, the nation was not. We took the land from the indians, and we built OUR nation on it. That's the truth, plain and simple.

Oh..no..not another misguided white supremacist...for your information, there was once a time when signs that said "Irish Need Not Apply" were quite frequent...and we won't even go to the problems the Italians had when they started immigrating here..

And the Founding Fathers original intent was that this new nation was speaking as far as white..this is true, but not just white...but white-male-educated-and men of property...they assumed the average new American would be too ignorant to decide how things would be run..

This country was a mismatch of various failed and usurped colonies...in New Jersey both the Swedes and the Dutch (who also had settlements in Pennsylvania) had failed or bought out colonies and turned over to the English....North Carolina had a heavily Scots influence, Spain of course had the oldest known settlement in America in the form of St. Augustine down in Florida, the French in the Acadia region in what would become Louisiana. So as exactly who this country was set up by can be disputed, and it sure as hell was built on the blood of it's indigenous people.

The white man has signed over 500 separate treaties with the US Federal Government since the Treaty of New Hopewell USA vs Cherokee Nation, to date, he's broken each and every one.

Everyone knows them, they are the far right, they constantly complain that we are letting far too many people into the country, and that eventually our entire economy will collapse because of it. Yet however much data is presented before them about the benefits of hard working economic migrants (who contribute a hell of a lot to the business sector) they still maintain thier views.

Are Conservatives just against ANY change? Does thier brain forbid them to question any 2 or 300 year old law? Or is it just racism?

Discuss.

We are discussing immigration into which country?

That would be helpful information.

For clarification, I did not read any of the thread, just the original post. Sorry if this has already been discussed.

I don't think you can attribute the "they're takin' our jobs" crap to rightist policies. If you're on the right you'll know that free trade is good, free market, and that includes the distribution of human resources. Thus any attempt to block immigration to "protect jobs" is just jingoism, nationalism, xenophobia and/or ignorance.

It's the lefties who favor trade protectionism.

Yes its lefties at least right now who seem to be big protectionists. But a small group of righties are protectionist types to like the constitution party and pat buchanan type republicans. Not I. Free markets and free trade. Should walmart be punished for hiring illegal immigrants? NO. Should immigrants be able to come here freely? Yes I support all peaceful hardworking immigrants coming to this country

As an immigrant myself and being white without an accent, I have had the pleasure of listening in on people speaking quite freely on this issue. Most people are down right ignorant and uninformed. I hear more young people spewing the same xenophobic puritanical crap that their grandfathers were many years before. And whats wonderful about such ideologies is that its adaptable, as in "insert unwanted group here" because they always say that ME being white, middleclass, that im different, not like those "others". Frankly getting into this country was hard and tedious. Undocumented immigrants should be detered from sneaking in by streamlining the immigration system and not making it a process of standing in line after line for years on end while the clerks are rude and useless eventhough their the ones who have a huge habit of losing important paperwork or mislaying files and forcing people to begin the process all over again. Not that im bitter... Im happy to be here and have lived a productive life here and im glad for the opportunity, not that where im from is lacking anything but the weather here rules. I just wish it was a better functioning system. Thank You for your time.

I'm very conservative, and love the idea of unfettered immigration. That isn't to say I want open boarders, but just an endless supply of visas to be rewarded. It'd help our struggling agriculture and manufacturing sector, while enrichening our neighbor to the south, which is the nation that provides the most foreign revenue to the US.

Oh..no..not another misguided white supremacist...for your information, there was once a time when signs that said "Irish Need Not Apply" were quite frequent...and we won't even go to the problems the Italians had when they started immigrating here..

And the Founding Fathers original intent was that this new nation was speaking as far as white..this is true, but not just white...but white-male-educated-and men of property...they assumed the average new American would be too ignorant to decide how things would be run..

This country was a mismatch of various failed and usurped colonies...in New Jersey both the Swedes and the Dutch (who also had settlements in Pennsylvania) had failed or bought out colonies and turned over to the English....North Carolina had a heavily Scots influence, Spain of course had the oldest known settlement in America in the form of St. Augustine down in Florida, the French in the Acadia region in what would become Louisiana. So as exactly who this country was set up by can be disputed, and it sure as hell was built on the blood of it's indigenous people.

The white man has signed over 500 separate treaties with the US Federal Government since the Treaty of New Hopewell USA vs Cherokee Nation, to date, he's broken each and every one.


Yes I know all about the trouble the Irish and Italians faced, the "Know-Nothing" party, etc. But we eventually got over that and learned to accept all our white brethren as equals, because all whites are equal in the eyes of God. I know all about the Acadians being kicked out by the British and then becoming the "Cajuns".

I'm very conservative, and love the idea of unfettered immigration. That isn't to say I want open boarders, but just an endless supply of visas to be rewarded. It'd help our struggling agriculture and manufacturing sector, while enrichening our neighbor to the south, which is the nation that provides the most foreign revenue to the US.

I see that you you are a strong supporter of Bush's plan:

Quote from George W. Bush's official campaign website:
I strongly oppose what they call, amnesty, because all amnesty would do is invite more illegal immigration. All amnesty would do would say to those who are waiting in line in a legal way to become a citizen that legality -- being legal doesn't matter in America. It does matter. So what I wanted Congress to consider for certain kinds of jobs is to put out a temporary worker card; to get rid of all this business about people forging documents that put employers at risk; that say, for the period of time you're here you can go home and take money back without fear of being arrested.

This means you do not love the idea of unfettered IMMIGRATION.

immigration

\Im"mi*gra"tion\, n. [Cf. F. immigration.] The act of immigrating; the passing or coming into a country for the purpose of permanent residence.

Yes its lefties at least right now who seem to be big protectionists. But a small group of righties are protectionist types to like the constitution party and pat buchanan type republicans. Not I. Free markets and free trade. Should walmart be punished for hiring illegal immigrants? NO. Should immigrants be able to come here freely? Yes I support all peaceful hardworking immigrants coming to this country

For those of you who think easing up on immigration is a rightist policy (by today's standards, at least, instead of the more traditional definitions) let's take a trip to the left.

John Kerry claims he wants to make immigration more fair and secure. He claims he will offer a (as of now too vaguely defined) reform bill that "allows immigrants to earn legalization, encourages family reunification, and strengthens our border protections." While this is far from "unfettered" it would theoretically allow for more actual immigration.

And now even further left: Dennis Kucinich

I am a strong supporter of the USA Family Act (HR 440). It offers immigrants a clear road map to legal status in the United States. Among other changes, it grants legal permanent residence to immigrants who have been living in the U.S. for five or more years. It offers conditional legal status and work authorization to all law-abiding immigrants living in the United States for less than five years. And it revokes current laws that bar certain people who live abroad from re-entering the U.S. for a period of three to 10 years.

So, the general consensus across the politcal spectrum is that more workers should be allowed in. The Right, however, shys away from allowing these workers true immigrant status. How much of this is because they wish to withhold the additional benefits that the people would receive along with actual legal immigrant (as opposed to temporary worker) status? How much is due to the fact that a large part of the right's voter block holds the misconceptions about immigration brought up in this topic, and thus the right feels a need to avoid the loaded idea of actual immigration?

I see that you you are a strong supporter of Bush's plan:

Quote from George W. Bush's official campaign website:
I strongly oppose what they call, amnesty, because all amnesty would do is invite more illegal immigration. All amnesty would do would say to those who are waiting in line in a legal way to become a citizen that legality -- being legal doesn't matter in America. It does matter. So what I wanted Congress to consider for certain kinds of jobs is to put out a temporary worker card; to get rid of all this business about people forging documents that put employers at risk; that say, for the period of time you're here you can go home and take money back without fear of being arrested.

This means you do not love the idea of unfettered IMMIGRATION.

immigration

\Im"mi*gra"tion\, n. [Cf. F. immigration.] The act of immigrating; the passing or coming into a country for the purpose of permanent residence.



You're half correct. I support Bush's plan. However, I feel that it doesn't go far enough. I want it so that anyone, anywhere in the world can apply for US residence, so long as they aren't a terrorist, or they carry a foreign disease. Hell, enough immigrants could come here to lobby their mothercountries to become a state :).

Were the founding fathers legal or illegal? (Tricky one, think about it. Answers on my desk tomorrow morning, or detention!)


Everyone knows that in the first person, "OUR Revolution", it is legal. It's only in the third person, "THEIR revolution" that it is an illegal action.

(paraphrased from the musical 1776, Benjamin Franklin) ;)

So you've got your knickers in a twist because the US is divided among the people who think immigration is good and the people who think it's bad? Try Australia, or Bermuda, or any number of nations who make it clear to you it's only a visit and you're getting the heck out of their country at the end of it.

Ah, hypocrisy. :)

So, the general consensus across the politcal spectrum is that more workers should be allowed in. The Right, however, shys away from allowing these workers true immigrant status. How much of this is because they wish to withhold the additional benefits that the people would receive along with actual legal immigrant (as opposed to temporary worker) status? How much is due to the fact that a large part of the right's voter block holds the misconceptions about immigration brought up in this topic, and thus the right feels a need to avoid the loaded idea of actual immigration?


By keeping the workers from becoming citizens or true immigrants, the Neo-Cons are able to keep the threat of deportation over the heads of immigrants who try to join unions or complain about working conditions. Also, if corporations are able to pay migrant workers unfair wages, then this will destroy the whole labor movement and set worker's rights back a hundred years!

Uhhhh you guys are totally off. Since when was it a right wing thing to say that we want no immigrants? As long as those immigrants are going to be good, productive members of society, I welcome them.

Oh, I've also noticed ALOT of immigrants are right wing too. You're just trying to use this as an excuse to bash the right because you have no real arguments to do so with....

I've seen just as many left wingers as right wingers who say we shouldn't allow immigration, and just as many who say we should on both sides. This isn't an issue for the left wing/right wing debate.

Uhhhh you guys are totally off. Since when was it a right wing thing to say that we want no immigrants? As long as those immigrants are going to be good, productive members of society, I welcome them.

Oh, I've also noticed ALOT of immigrants are right wing too. You're just trying to use this as an excuse to bash the right because you have no real arguments to do so with....

I've seen just as many left wingers as right wingers who say we shouldn't allow immigration, and just as many who say we should on both sides. This isn't an issue for the left wing/right wing debate.

Well, the Bush plan is to expand migration without expanding immigration. But I have a very deep suspicion that the area of the "right wing" being bashed here is not so much the conservatives who are truly versed in right wing policies so much as the self-professed "right wingers" who belong to labor unions, would probably be the first people to turn their shotguns on the government if a state of martial emergency kept them from their favorite bar on a Friday night, but who support Bush largely because they perceive that he is against homosexual rights and against allowing a bunch of foreigners into the United States. Only the last bit holds no real truth.

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