NationStates Jolt Archive

I've got a question for US libertarians. Ruby Ridge is a symbol of the excesses of the state and the murderous activities of their footsoldiers. But why not Pine Ridge? Is the American right simply racist? Do libertarians oppose state brutality only against their own and not against Native Americans? Is state brutality acceptable when it's not against your own?

Vas.

What the hell is pine ridge. The only pine I know is pine gap.

What the hell is pine ridge. The only pine I know is pine gap.

The Case of Leonard Peltier (http://www.freepeltier.org)

Vas.

The only place i heard about Ruby Ridge was the same place i heard about Pine Ridge.

'The tangled webs they weave span from Pine to Ruby Ridge,
Way back from Shay's defeat
on up to Gustafsen' - Propagandhi

The Case of Leonard Peltier (http://www.freepeltier.org)

Vas.



Peltier is actually guilty. Weaver was and is a patriot!


Peltier's son and wife were not brutally cut down!

Peltier is actually guilty. Weaver was and is a patriot!


Peltier's son and wife were not brutally cut down!So the answer is yes. You only mind state brutality against your own. You are a hypocrite.

I don't even know what you are talking about.

I don't even know what you are talking about.

Which is kind of my point, for years I've heard ranting and raving about Ruby Ridge (and Waco, etc), but little or nothing about Leonard Peltier and Pine Ridge. Why? Come on, this is open to all libertarians, is Decisive Action an acceptable representative?

Vas.

Ruby Ridge was an atrocity, it was a travesty of justice. A family that wanted to be left alone was entrapped and then the son and wife murdered. A federal agent died, but his killing was ruled self-defense because the government was ruled to have seriously over-stepped their authority.


Peltirr though, he is genuinely guilty, so I won't lose any sleep over him being in jail where he cannot harm anybody else.

Ruby Ridge was an atrocity, it was a travesty of justice. A family that wanted to be left alone was entrapped and then the son and wife murdered. A federal agent died, but his killing was ruled self-defense because the government was ruled to have seriously over-stepped their authority.


Peltirr though, he is genuinely guilty, so I won't lose any sleep over him being in jail where he cannot harm anybody else.

Guilty of defending fellow Indians on tribal lands from turncoat Indians and terrorist FBI agents who had no business other then to silence AIM members. there were over 40 people that particiapated in that firefight, but only 3 AIM members were charged..why...can you say scrapegoat for a botched FBI assasination..oh yes.

Guilty of defending fellow Indians on tribal lands from turncoat Indians and terrorist FBI agents who had no business other then to silence AIM members. there were over 40 people that particiapated in that firefight, but only 3 AIM members were charged..why...can you say scrapegoat for a botched FBI assasination..oh yes.


I'm not going to get into an uproar because some indian (who was probably drunk on firewater) decided to act tough and open fire on those who disagreed with his terrorist views.

I'm not going to get into an uproar because some indian (who was probably drunk on firewater) decided to act tough and open fire on those who disagreed with his terrorist views.

Excuse me..what a racist comment to make?...I happen to be an Indian, and acting tough?..you mean like defending the two families who thought the FBI were going to attack them?...on tribal lands no less..

AIM a terrorist group?...the American Indian Movement a terrorist group? You have your facts mixed up...they are a voice speaking for Indians who have been treated like second-class citizens for over a century...they stand tall as warriors in front of a white man who never could stand their independence. The white man introduced us to alchohol..forced us onto reservations, destroyed our cultures, destroyed our sacred places, forbids us from speaking our languages, forced-converted to Christianity, forced warriors to cut their hair..hell..the Lakota couldn't even do the Sun Dance til 1996.

edited:.But it's murder when a white supremicist, tax evader and hoarder of illegal weapons is killed by FBI/ATF..ahuh..

As a member of the NRA I have heard an endless discussion about how Randy Weaver was a patriot and his wife and son were mercilessly killed. I also heard that the Federal Government is out to get us all. I don't believe this at all.

Randy Weaver didn't hurt anyone in his normal life. He was a seperatist and a religous extremist. He was screwed into breaking a federal firearms law by FBI agents. He was taken to court and given a court date. That is where the Feds guilt ends. Had he simply gone to court and told the truth he would probably have gotten off scot-free. Instead he chose to run to his hilltop. Libertarians scream about the Federal agents "cutting down" Randy Weaver's wife and son. Randy Weaver armed his son and sent him into a firefight, making him a combatant and therefore a viable target. How many times did the Viet Cong do this in Vietnam? When you hand a child a gun you make him a target. Period. Vicky Weaver was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was behind a window and the FBI sniper took the shot. The Feds screwed up big and so did Randy. Unfortunately 3 people died because of their mistakes.

edit: What Tribe are you Salishe? I'm 1/8th Cherokee so I kinda know where you are coming from.

Here are the facts as I see them.

At the time of the Pine Ridge incident, racist behaviors DID affect the outcome of the investigation and the trial that convicted the defendant, Mr. Peltier.

While these racist behaviors no longer exist (well legally speaking), the justice system does not easily over-turn convictions of inmates. This is mostly because of the rules of play within the American justice system that makes it difficult to pardon a convicted inmate. New trials are difficult to secure and this is worsened by a ballooning civil court system and the untold number of appeals that are on the dockets. Lawyers filing extensions, pushing back court dates, and a genuine lack of presiding judges make the system even slower.

My personal conviction is that many wrongs were committed by both sides. This is moreso on the side of the racist government that was controlling the agencies at that time. The US government most likely does not wish to admit futher wrongdoing and open themselves to litigation in the case. Therefore, it refuses to change it hardline stance against the defendant.

As a member of the NRA I have heard an endless discussion about how Randy Weaver was a patriot and his wife and son were mercilessly killed. I also heard that the Federal Government is out to get us all. I don't believe this at all.

Randy Weaver didn't hurt anyone in his normal life. He was a seperatist and a religous extremist. He was screwed into breaking a federal firearms law by FBI agents. He was taken to court and given a court date. That is where the Feds guilt ends. Had he simply gone to court and told the truth he would probably have gotten off scot-free. Instead he chose to run to his hilltop. Libertarians scream about the Federal agents "cutting down" Randy Weaver's wife and son. Randy Weaver armed his son and sent him into a firefight, making him a combatant and therefore a viable target. How many times did the Viet Cong do this in Vietnam? When you hand a child a gun you make him a target. Period. Vicky Weaver was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was behind a window and the FBI sniper took the shot. The Feds screwed up big and so did Randy. Unfortunately 3 people died because of their mistakes.


A team of masked marshals with high tech laser sights and goggles and assault rifles, decked out in camo, charged up the path. They failed to say "Federal marshals, freeze!" or anything of the sort.

The dog went after them, "Boom!" he went down. Then young Sammy Weaver, seeing his dog struck down by masked men, who are terrorists for all he knows, opened fire. He then turned to run as his father screamed for him to get inside. He was struck in the back by a round from the government death squad.


The wife was standing behind a windowed door holding an infant in her arms, an expert Sniper shot her in the face. He originally said he meant to hit Kevin (Weaver's friend), but then later testified, "I knew what I was doing, I meant to do it."

It is unfortunate that 2 people died, Sammy and Vicky. It is not however unfortunate that one of the members of the government death squad was struck down.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants.

Here are the facts as I see them.

At the time of the Pine Ridge incident, racist behaviors DID affect the outcome of the investigation and the trial that convicted the defendant, Mr. Peltier.

While these racist behaviors no longer exist (well legally speaking), the justice system does not easily over-turn convictions of inmates. This is mostly because of the rules of play within the American justice system that makes it difficult to pardon a convicted inmate. New trials are difficult to secure and this is worsened by a ballooning civil court system and the untold number of appeals that are on the dockets. Lawyers filing extensions, pushing back court dates, and a genuine lack of presiding judges make the system even slower.

My personal conviction is that many wrongs were committed by both sides. This is moreso on the side of the racist government that was controlling the agencies at that time. The US government most likely does not wish to admit futher wrongdoing and open themselves to litigation in the case. Therefore, it refuses to change it hardline stance against the defendant.


All I can tell you is that the US gov't has been against the white race since about the 1930s-1940s when Franklin "The Jew" Roosenveld (his real name before he changed it to conceal his semitic origins) took over.

I don't know enough about the Peltier case to really weigh in on it, I do know is that FBI agents were killed. But I may not like the FBI or the government, but it's our (Whites) government and it's our (Whites) responsibility to smash it, we built it, it turned into tyranny, it's our job to destroy it. Not the indians jobs, our (whites) job.

A team of masked marshals with high tech laser sights and goggles and assault rifles, decked out in camo, charged up the path. They failed to say "Federal marshals, freeze!" or anything of the sort.

The dog went after them, "Boom!" he went down. Then young Sammy Weaver, seeing his dog struck down by masked men, who are terrorists for all he knows, opened fire. He then turned to run as his father screamed for him to get inside. He was struck in the back by a round from the government death squad.


The wife was standing behind a windowed door holding an infant in her arms, an expert Sniper shot her in the face. He originally said he meant to hit Kevin (Weaver's friend), but then later testified, "I knew what I was doing, I meant to do it."

It is unfortunate that 2 people died, Sammy and Vicky. It is not however unfortunate that one of the members of the government death squad was struck down.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants.


Excuse me..but how is that any different then the 150 FBI agents who violated Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs, and several treaties by trespassing on the Pine Ridge Reservation and chased and then opened fire on two families and various other members of the tribe?

forced-converted to Christianity

I agree there, that's just wrong. God only wants Europeans to worship Him, which is why during the Pentecost, the faith was burned into the followers of God, and eventually spread like wildfire throughout Europe. God is insulted when non-europeans attempt to worship Him (they often worship other deities while worshipping Him at the same time)

Excuse me..but how is that any different then the 150 FBI agents who violated Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs, and several treaties by trespassing on the Pine Ridge Reservation and chased and then opened fire on two families and various other members of the tribe?


I don't much about the case, but if White officers say they were doing the right thing, I'm going to believe them before I believe Indians. That's how it is.

I don't much about the case, but if White officers say they were doing the right thing, I'm going to believe them before I believe Indians. That's how it is.

Excuse me?..wtf?....So..the white officers in the Weaver case..were innocent of any wrongdoing by your standard.

Death Squad? Come on now man, lets get real.

Do you want the Marshals to yell "Freeze! Federal Marshals!" when they take down an Islamic terrorist? No, you want them to be dead before they hear the sound of the MP-5's action. Enemies of the state are enemies of the state. No matter what color or religon. I cannot fault the Marshals, I would have pulled the trigger on the dog, the kid and the wife. It would haunt me to this day, and I might go crazy over it, but the job of the Feds is to maintain order and peace, if that means taking out some of your so-called "patriots" then so be it.

Death Squad? Come on now man, lets get real.

Do you want the Marshals to yell "Freeze! Federal Marshals!" when they take down an Islamic terrorist? No, you want them to be dead before they hear the sound of the MP-5's action. Enemies of the state are enemies of the state. No matter what color or religon. I cannot fault the Marshals, I would have pulled the trigger on the dog, the kid and the wife. It would haunt me to this day, and I might go crazy over it, but the job of the Feds is to maintain order and peace, if that means taking out some of your so-called "patriots" then so be it.


Well then all I can say is the government has declared war on us, and we will fight them until we die.

I absolutely LOVE to pick the mind of white supremacists like yourself.

Genetically speaking, skin color DOES NOT place a difference between "white" people and anyone else. For that matter, the basic human code is not that much different than any other animal.

Skin color was caused by living proximity to the equator during the dawn of civilization. The body adapted as people moved outward and away from it. That means that "white" people were not always white, and due to EXTENSIVE racial mixing, will never be "white".

But if you want to start falling onto the word caucasion to describe your feelings, or European... let me remind you that the Europeans STOLE the land from the Native Americans. We did it forcefully, and we sought to slaughter their numbers intentionally through the spread of deadly diseases.

Caucasians have a long and glorious history of BARBARIC behavior. You want to isolate yourselves? Fine. Go off and find some uninhabited chunk of land in the middle of nowhere and build your "utopian" society. Human response will still lead that "utopia" down in flames as you find something else to be exclusive about.

Excuse me?..wtf?....So..the white officers in the Weaver case..were innocent of any wrongdoing by your standard.


Well that is different, the government is tyrannical, and as such war is being waged against the white working class by the government.

But like I said, it's the white race's job to smash this government, the indians should just sit quietly on their reservations and count their casino money.

When we finally topple the government, we'll figure out something to compensate you for pushing you all around a little much.

Death Squad? Come on now man, lets get real.

Do you want the Marshals to yell "Freeze! Federal Marshals!" when they take down an Islamic terrorist? No, you want them to be dead before they hear the sound of the MP-5's action. Enemies of the state are enemies of the state. No matter what color or religon. I cannot fault the Marshals, I would have pulled the trigger on the dog, the kid and the wife. It would haunt me to this day, and I might go crazy over it, but the job of the Feds is to maintain order and peace, if that means taking out some of your so-called "patriots" then so be it.


A muslim terrorist who wants to jihad a plane into a building is a threat. A white separatist who wants to be left alone to live in the hills, is not a threat.

Well that is different, the government is tyrannical, and as such war is being waged against the white working class by the government.

But like I said, it's the white race's job to smash this government, the indians should just sit quietly on their reservations and count their casino money.

When we finally topple the government, we'll figure out something to compensate you for pushing you all around a little much.

You have GOT to be kidding me..you can't possibly truly believe this, please tell me you're some nationstates overachiever and are playing us like suckers, you mean the government wasn't at war with the Indians that day at Pine Ridge but they were at war with Weaver?...ahuh..

A muslim terrorist who wants to jihad a plane into a building is a threat. A white separatist who wants to be left alone to live in the hills, is not a threat.

Of course he is, give his family a few decades to have produced four or five generations of mutant inbreds and what'll we have then? Freaks with guns, shoot 'em all.

Vas (this heat is getting to me).

Well that is different, the government is tyrannical, and as such war is being waged against the white working class by the government.

But like I said, it's the white race's job to smash this government, the indians should just sit quietly on their reservations and count their casino money.

When we finally topple the government, we'll figure out something to compensate you for pushing you all around a little much.

So when the government violates a Native American's civil rights and ends up shooting a couple of family members, they're just doing their jobs but when the government violated a caucasian's civil rights and ends up killing a couple of family members it's tyranny?

You can't condemn the government and support its actions at the same time. Good God, at least be consistent and logical in your views.

So when the government violates a Native American's civil rights and ends up shooting a couple of family members, they're just doing their jobs but when the government violated a caucasian's civil rights and ends up killing a couple of family members it's tyranny?

You can't condemn the government and support its actions at the same time. Good God, at least be consistent and logical in your views.

I'm not sure which is scarier...that he actually believes this tripe he's passing off..or that he doesn't believe it..but wants people on Nationstates to believe he's like this.

A team of masked marshals with high tech laser sights and goggles and assault rifles, decked out in camo, charged up the path. They failed to say "Federal marshals, freeze!" or anything of the sort.

The dog went after them, "Boom!" he went down. Then young Sammy Weaver, seeing his dog struck down by masked men, who are terrorists for all he knows, opened fire. He then turned to run as his father screamed for him to get inside. He was struck in the back by a round from the government death squad.


The wife was standing behind a windowed door holding an infant in her arms, an expert Sniper shot her in the face. He originally said he meant to hit Kevin (Weaver's friend), but then later testified, "I knew what I was doing, I meant to do it."

It is unfortunate that 2 people died, Sammy and Vicky. It is not however unfortunate that one of the members of the government death squad was struck down.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants.
The important part is bolded. You don't open fire on people and not expect return fire to come your way. He deserved that bullet.

All I can tell you is that the US gov't has been against the white race since about the 1930s-1940s when Franklin "The Jew" Roosenveld (his real name before he changed it to conceal his semitic origins) took over.

I don't know enough about the Peltier case to really weigh in on it, I do know is that FBI agents were killed. But I may not like the FBI or the government, but it's our (Whites) government and it's our (Whites) responsibility to smash it, we built it, it turned into tyranny, it's our job to destroy it. Not the indians jobs, our (whites) job.

Ahh... the White Shame Party speaks again...

Well then all I can say is the government has declared war on us, and we will fight them until we die.

If by "us" you mean Whites who horde illegal weaponry, refuse to pay taxes, and ignore the courts, I hope the day comes soon.

The Case of Leonard Peltier (http://www.freepeltier.org)

Vas.

In the early 1970's, Leonard Peltier was one of a group of 3 Indians who murdered two FBI Agents who were investigating his, and others, involvement in AIM, "American Indian Movement".

AIM was an ultra-violent indian group engaged in conflicts between themselves (Traditionalists) and other Native Americans (Non-traditionalists) represented by Dick Wilson, President of the Pine Ridge Tribal Counsel. Since the violence and carnage was occuring on a Federal Indian reservation, the FBI, in conjunction with the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) was tasked with law enforcement on this Pine Ridge Indian reservation, as they were the law enforcement all other Indian reservations in serious matters of murder, etc.

AIM believed that there was a deliberate campaign by the FBI, BIA, and Wilson to stop their activist activities on behalf of Native Americans. They were actually performing their duties as Law Enforcement officers. FBI Special Agents Jack R. Coler and Ronald A. Williams, assigned to the Rapid City Resident Agency (RCRA) within the FBI's Minneapolis Division, entered the Jumping Bull Compound on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, South Dakota shortly before 12 noon on June 26, 1975. Agents Coler and Williams, traveling in separate FBI vehicles, were following up on information that a wanted Native American, Jimmy Eagle, was believed to have recently been at Pine Ridge driving a red vehicle. The Agents believed that they had spotted Jimmy Eagle and followed him onto the Jumping Bull property. FBI employees and agents some distance away from Jumping Bull heard Agent Williams broadcast over the FBI radio that they were being fired upon from individuals in the vehicle they were following and elsewhere within the Jumping Bull Compound. Agent Williams's radio transmissions were brief, lasting approximately 10 minutes. During the investigation into the murders, it was learned from eye-witnesses, other indians, including Peltier's own family membres, that the FBI agents, who were out-gunned and out-manned, tried to surrender after they were both bleeding and dying. Peltier feigned acceptance of their surrender, walked up to them, and shot them both dead... point blank in the head.

A massive FBI investigation (RESMURS) (Reservation-Murders) was conducted which resulted in the indictments of Darrelle (Dino) Butler, Robert (Bob) Robideau, and Leonard Peltier for the murder of the two agents and aiding and abetting in those murders. Butler and Robideau were arrested first. But Leonard peltier had fled the country. Peltier was later arrested in Canada and eventually extradited to the U.S.

Peltier was tried before U.S. District Court Judge Paul Benson at a jury trial in Fargo, North Dakota in March and April, 1977, convicted, and sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. Efforts by Leonard Peltier and the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee to secure Executive Clemency and a pardon from the President of the United States have been unsuccessful.

Leaonard Peltier has always used, and still uses to this day, the "Soveriegn Nation" defense, and that he was acting in self-defense. He portrays himself as another "Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo"... only this happens in the late 1970's. He also considers himself as leader of "his peoples". When, in fact, he was an alcoholic, drug addict, wife beater, womanizer, and thug. He terrorized the Tribal Council of his tribe for years in an effort to lead a "coup" and take over the tribe. Now, older and having been in prison awhile, he tries to make amends for his behavior and uses fabrications, lies, and playing on the sympathies of those who "feel for the plight of the American Indian" to try to win his freedom.

He's a cold-blooded murderer... plain and simple. But he's been built up as a martyr of the indian peoples and has become another one of those 'Hollywood Charity Celebrity Causes'. You know the kind... "we're loved and revered movie stars and more important that anyone else alive, so we know what's best", kind of causes.

In the early 1970's, Leonard Peltier was one of a group of 3 Indians who murdered two FBI Agents who were investigating his, and others, involvement in AIM, "American Indian Movement".

AIM was an ultra-violent indian group engaged in conflicts between themselves (Traditionalists) and other Native Americans (Non-traditionalists) represented by Dick Wilson, President of the Pine Ridge Tribal Counsel. Since the violence and carnage was occuring on a Federal Indian reservation, the FBI, in conjunction with the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) was tasked with law enforcement on this Pine Ridge Indian reservation, as they were the law enforcement all other Indian reservations in serious matters of murder, etc.

AIM believed that there was a deliberate campaign by the FBI, BIA, and Wilson to stop their activist activities on behalf of Native Americans. They were actually performing their duties as Law Enforcement officers. FBI Special Agents Jack R. Coler and Ronald A. Williams, assigned to the Rapid City Resident Agency (RCRA) within the FBI's Minneapolis Division, entered the Jumping Bull Compound on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, South Dakota shortly before 12 noon on June 26, 1975. Agents Coler and Williams, traveling in separate FBI vehicles, were following up on information that a wanted Native American, Jimmy Eagle, was believed to have recently been at Pine Ridge driving a red vehicle. The Agents believed that they had spotted Jimmy Eagle and followed him onto the Jumping Bull property. FBI employees and agents some distance away from Jumping Bull heard Agent Williams broadcast over the FBI radio that they were being fired upon from individuals in the vehicle they were following and elsewhere within the Jumping Bull Compound. Agent Williams's radio transmissions were brief, lasting approximately 10 minutes. During the investigation into the murders, it was learned from eye-witnesses, other indians, including Peltier's own family membres, that the FBI agents, who were out-gunned and out-manned, tried to surrender after they were both bleeding and dying. Peltier feigned acceptance of their surrender, walked up to them, and shot them both dead... point blank in the head.

A massive FBI investigation (RESMURS) (Reservation-Murders) was conducted which resulted in the indictments of Darrelle (Dino) Butler, Robert (Bob) Robideau, and Leonard Peltier for the murder of the two agents and aiding and abetting in those murders. Butler and Robideau were arrested first. But Leonard peltier had fled the country. Peltier was later arrested in Canada and eventually extradited to the U.S.

Peltier was tried before U.S. District Court Judge Paul Benson at a jury trial in Fargo, North Dakota in March and April, 1977, convicted, and sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. Efforts by Leonard Peltier and the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee to secure Executive Clemency and a pardon from the President of the United States have been unsuccessful.

Leaonard Peltier has always used, and still uses to this day, the "Soveriegn Nation" defense, and that he was acting in self-defense. He portrays himself as another "Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo"... only this happens in the late 1970's. He also considers himself as leader of "his peoples". When, in fact, he was an alcoholic, drug addict, wife beater, womanizer, and thug. He terrorized the Tribal Council of his tribe for years in an effort to lead a "coup" and take over the tribe. Now, older and having been in prison awhile, he tries to make amends for his behavior and uses fabrications, lies, and playing on the sympathies of those who "feel for the plight of the American Indian" to try to win his freedom.

He's a cold-blooded murderer... plain and simple.

Yeah plain and simple... what does it matter that the F.B.I. had to falsify evidence in order to "prove" it?

Yeah plain and simple... what does it matter that the F.B.I. had to falsify evidence in order to "prove" it?

So the conspiracy theory goes ... par for the course on these boards :rolleyes:

If that were even half true, I'm sure at least CLINTON would have pardoned him. Clinton believes in his guilt and refused the pardon... as have several other presidents, Republican and Democrat. Not to mention the PLETHERA of appeals in high courts all across the country... all refused. He can't even buy a pardon/appeal, and he's tried that too.

You've now convinced me that this injun is innocent, I'd vote to let him go. Afterall, even if he did kill anybody, they're FBI, they'd deserve it.

In the early 1970's, Leonard Peltier was one of a group of 3 Indians who murdered two FBI Agents who were investigating his, and others, involvement in AIM, "American Indian Movement".

AIM was an ultra-violent indian group engaged in conflicts between themselves (Traditionalists) and other Native Americans (Non-traditionalists) represented by Dick Wilson, President of the Pine Ridge Tribal Counsel. Since the violence and carnage was occuring on a Federal Indian reservation, the FBI, in conjunction with the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) was tasked with law enforcement on this Pine Ridge Indian reservation, as they were the law enforcement all other Indian reservations in serious matters of murder, etc.

AIM believed that there was a deliberate campaign by the FBI, BIA, and Wilson to stop their activist activities on behalf of Native Americans. They were actually performing their duties as Law Enforcement officers. FBI Special Agents Jack R. Coler and Ronald A. Williams, assigned to the Rapid City Resident Agency (RCRA) within the FBI's Minneapolis Division, entered the Jumping Bull Compound on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, South Dakota shortly before 12 noon on June 26, 1975. Agents Coler and Williams, traveling in separate FBI vehicles, were following up on information that a wanted Native American, Jimmy Eagle, was believed to have recently been at Pine Ridge driving a red vehicle. The Agents believed that they had spotted Jimmy Eagle and followed him onto the Jumping Bull property. FBI employees and agents some distance away from Jumping Bull heard Agent Williams broadcast over the FBI radio that they were being fired upon from individuals in the vehicle they were following and elsewhere within the Jumping Bull Compound. Agent Williams's radio transmissions were brief, lasting approximately 10 minutes. During the investigation into the murders, it was learned from eye-witnesses, other indians, including Peltier's own family membres, that the FBI agents, who were out-gunned and out-manned, tried to surrender after they were both bleeding and dying. Peltier feigned acceptance of their surrender, walked up to them, and shot them both dead... point blank in the head.

A massive FBI investigation (RESMURS) (Reservation-Murders) was conducted which resulted in the indictments of Darrelle (Dino) Butler, Robert (Bob) Robideau, and Leonard Peltier for the murder of the two agents and aiding and abetting in those murders. Butler and Robideau were arrested first. But Leonard peltier had fled the country. Peltier was later arrested in Canada and eventually extradited to the U.S.

Peltier was tried before U.S. District Court Judge Paul Benson at a jury trial in Fargo, North Dakota in March and April, 1977, convicted, and sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. Efforts by Leonard Peltier and the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee to secure Executive Clemency and a pardon from the President of the United States have been unsuccessful.

Leaonard Peltier has always used, and still uses to this day, the "Soveriegn Nation" defense, and that he was acting in self-defense. He portrays himself as another "Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo"... only this happens in the late 1970's. He also considers himself as leader of "his peoples". When, in fact, he was an alcoholic, drug addict, wife beater, womanizer, and thug. He terrorized the Tribal Council of his tribe for years in an effort to lead a "coup" and take over the tribe. Now, older and having been in prison awhile, he tries to make amends for his behavior and uses fabrications, lies, and playing on the sympathies of those who "feel for the plight of the American Indian" to try to win his freedom.

He's a cold-blooded murderer... plain and simple. But he's been built up as a martyr of the indian peoples and has become another one of those 'Hollywood Charity Celebrity Causes'. You know the kind... "we're loved and revered movie stars and more important that anyone else alive, so we know what's best", kind of causes.


Excuse me..but the GOONS of Wilson and the FBI were attempting to discredit AIM...they were constantly trying to infiltrate the organization..co-opting with threats of jail time their informants.

Murdered..no..self-defense..the occupants of the vehicle and later on at the Jumping Bull compound truly believed they were going to be attacked and slaughtered....and oh..a few employees or agents??...over 150 federal agents armed to the teeth, not to mention Wilson's GOON squad descended pretty damn quick on the compound and subsequently opened fire

You've now convinced me that this injun is innocent, I'd vote to let him go. Afterall, even if he did kill anybody, they're FBI, they'd deserve it.

yeah... okay 'wood. that's all anyone needs to hear from you to know you're half-baked and every single post yopu ever make is just lunatic ravings.

we can all ignore anything you have to say from now on.

yeah... okay 'wood. that's all anyone needs to hear from you to know you're half-baked and every single post yopu ever make is just lunatic ravings.

we can all ignore anything you have to say from now on.

Hey, I just agreed he's innocent, what more do you want?

Hey, I just agreed he's innocent, what more do you want?

I would be very happy if you and your mother would have a game of russian roulette with an automatic. :)

Excuse me..but the GOONS of Wilson and the FBI were attempting to discredit AIM...they were constantly trying to infiltrate the organization..co-opting with threats of jail time their informants.

Murdered..no..self-defense..the occupants of the vehicle and later on at the Jumping Bull compound truly believed they were going to be attacked and slaughtered....and oh..a few employees or agents??...over 150 federal agents armed to the teeth, not to mention Wilson's GOON squad descended pretty damn quick on the compound and subsequently opened fire

Well then maybe you can account for ONLY TWO agents, armed with nothing more than one six-shooter revolver apiece, being on this supposed mission to slaughter? And if there were 150 federal agents armed to the teeth, why were none of the indians even scratched and able to get away at first? And why would they have let Peltier live to even face trial if they were out to "slaughter" him? Law Enforcement is a dirty job, open to Monday morning quarterbacking and conspiracy theories AFTER THE FACT to an infinite degree. But the fact that literally dozens of DIFFERENT Judges and High Courts from sea to shining sea have refused to overturn on appeal and several Presidents refused to pardon, right up to the very present, should convince even you that he's done.

When it comes to trying to get away with murder, Leonard Peltier gives a whole new meaning to "Shop 'til you Drop"

I would be very happy if you and your mother would have a game of russian roulette with an automatic. :)


I'd be very happy if you'd go back to counting your casino money and the scalps you've taken. I said the boy is innocent, what more do you want?

Hey, I just agreed he's innocent, what more do you want?

Leonard Peltier's not innocent.

I'd be very happy if you'd go back to counting your casino money and the scalps you've taken. I said the boy is innocent, what more do you want?
That boy opened fire on federal officers for no good reason, what the hell did you expect them to do, sit down and have a cup of tea?

I don't much about the case, but if White officers say they were doing the right thing, I'm going to believe them before I believe Indians. That's how it is.
hahaha...
I've only read the thread to this point, and at first I was questioning Peltier's actions (though I'm still not totally sure what happened), but after reading this, I'm feeling pretty certain that he should be pardoned, and taken up as a libertarian cause. But I should find out more about the case now...

That boy opened fire on federal officers for no good reason, what the hell did you expect them to do, sit down and have a cup of tea?


They shot his dog in front of his eyes, and then turned towards him to silence him with their death squad style tactics!

He was defending himself.

I'm not going to get into Pine Ridge but I think it is interesting that the Bush Administration is getting hammered on the Patriot Act (which was easily passed by a bipartisan Congress). Ruby Ridge and let us not forget Elian Gonzales was the Clinton/Reno years. I loved that picture of the federal agent with the MP-5 grabbing Elian out of his uncle's arms. Liberals pay lip service to the Bill of Rights. If they had their way, the Second Amendment would be a footnote in history.

I'm not going to get into Pine Ridge but I think it is interesting that the Bush Administration is getting hammered on the Patriot Act (which was easily passed by a bipartisan Congress). Ruby Ridge and let us not forget Elian Gonzales was the Clinton/Reno years. I loved that picture of the federal agent with the MP-5 grabbing Elian out of his uncle's arms. Liberals pay lip service to the Bill of Rights. If they had their way, the Second Amendment would be a footnote in history.


Congress was not given enough time to read the Patriotic Act, they were basically told, "Pass it or we make you look Anti-American."

Congress was not given enough time to read the Patriotic Act, they were basically told, "Pass it or we make you look Anti-American."

Oh. Yeah. OK. I'm sure that was the case. As for the "evilness" of the Patriot Act, the Federal RICO statutes are more far reaching. And if that was the case, then all those who oppose the Patriot Act should vote their Congressmen and Senators out for deraliction of duty.

So the conspiracy theory goes ... par for the course on these boards :rolleyes:

If that were even half true, I'm sure at least CLINTON would have pardoned him. Clinton believes in his guilt and refused the pardon... as have several other presidents, Republican and Democrat. Not to mention the PLETHERA of appeals in high courts all across the country... all refused. He can't even buy a pardon/appeal, and he's tried that too.
Before you accuse anyone who says the FBI carrys out dirty tricks of conspiracy theorys I suggest you look at this website: http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm Specific papers from the case are contained here: http://ishgooda.org/peltier/copap7c.htm

You can hardly claim the FBI don't use this sort of tactic. And why would Clinton have wanted to pardon a native rights activist? Democrat administrations have always been as friendly to the CIA as Republican ones.

Congress was not given enough time to read the Patriotic Act, they were basically told, "Pass it or we make you look Anti-American."

The Act is 342 pages long and if anyone but a freshman was not sufficiently versed in legaleze to understand what it says with 23-'4 days to read it they should go to law school so they can better do the job that they were elected for.

As for them being cowed... most of them are sheep who could forsee the congress itself being under a falling airplane some day and they did not have to be threatened in order to trade essential freedoms for a little security.

If there is one thing that I have to agree with Decisive Action about (and I certainly hope it is the only one) it is that we have the absolute right to defend our lives persons and properties from what we reasonably perceive as criminal actions, even against those with badges.

FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL!!! :D

FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL!!! :D[/QUOTE]

I can't wait until Pennsylvania executes his cop-killing ass. He is a first class piece of shyte.

I can't wait until Pennsylvania executes his cop-killing ass. He is a first class piece of shyte.

Oh I forgot... self defence from criminal cops is a right that only Whites should enjoy ;)

FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL!!! :D


I must say "Fry Mumia" rather than "Free Mumia" radical scum he is! Cop killer! Fry him!

I must say "Fry Mumia" rather than "Free Mumia" radical scum he is! Cop killer! Fry him!

So... we should have fried Randy Weaver as well?

by Terry Bisson
from New York Newsday, 1995

In 1978, Philadelphia Mayor (and ex-police chief) Frank Rizzo blew up at a press conference, threatening what he called "the new breed" of journalists. "They [the people] believe what you write and what you say," said Rizzo, "and it's got to stop. One day—and I hope it's in my career—you're going to have to be held responsible and accountable for what you do."

What the "new breed" was doing in 1978, and is still doing today, was exposing police misconduct. A cop had been killed in a confrontation between Philadelphia police and the radical MOVE organization (the same MOVE that was fire-bombed by the city seven years later), and the police version of who shot first hadn't been accepted without question. Rizzo feared a new trend, and he was right.

The trend has continued. Today, the Mollen Commission, the NYPD "party"in DC, the Rodney King case and hundreds of other local scandals have exposed the dark underside of police misconduct nationwide. Ironically, the most prominent of the "new breed" of journalists at whom Rizzo's outburst was directed is awaiting execution on Pennsylvania's Death Row, the victim--many believe--of a police frame-up.

Mumia Abu-Jamal began his journalism career with the Black Panther Party. The Panthers were the original “affirmative action” employer, and Mumia (then Wesley Cook) was Minister of Information for the Philadelphia chapter at age 15, writing for the national newspaper. A heady beginning for a West Philly kid. After the Panthers fell apart (helped by a stiff dose of FBI harassment) Mumia turned to broadcasting. He had the voice, the writing talent and the ambition, and by age 25, he was one of the top names in local radio, interviewing such luminaries as Jesse Jackson and the Pointer Sisters and winning a Peabody Award for his coverage of the Pope's visit. He was president of the Philadelphia Association of Black Journalists, called “one to watch” by Philadelphia magazine.

But Mumia was still a radical. The Philadelphia Inquirer called him “an eloquent activist not afraid to raise his voice,” and this fearlessness was to be his undoing. His vocal support of MOVE's uncompromising life-style lost him jobs at Black stations, and he was forced to moonlight to support his family. The mayor's outburst marked the beginning of a campaign of police harassment that included such subtleties as a cocked finger and a 'bang bang' from a smirking cop, and escalated to a late-night police beating of Mumia's brother on the street.

Mumia was driving a cab that night. It is undisputed that he intervened. It is undisputed that both he and officer Daniel Faulkner were shot, and that Faulkner died. What is in dispute is who killed Faulkner. Mumia says it was someone else, and several witnesses saw another shooter flee the scene. Mumia's legally registered .38 was never decisively linked to Faulkner's wounds.

Mumia's murder trial was a policeman's dream. Denied the right to represent himself, he was defended by a reluctant incompetent who was later disbarred (and who has since filed an affadavit in Mumia's support detailing his delinquencies). Mumia was prosecuted by a DA who was later reprimanded for withholding evidence in another trial. He was allowed only $150 to interview witnesses.

But best of all was the judge. A life member of the Fraternal Order of Police, branded as a "defendant's nightmare" by the Philadelphia Inquirer, Judge Albert F. Sabo has sentenced more men to die (31 to date, only two of them white) than any other sitting judge in America. A fellow judge once called his courtroom a "vacation for prosecutors" because of bias toward convictions.

Sabo wouldn't allow Mumia to defend himself because his dreadlocks made jurors "nervous." Kept in a holding cell, he read about his own trial in the newspapers. A Black juror was removed for violating sequestration, while a white juror was given an court escort to take a civil service exam; in the end all the Black jurors but one were removed. A policeman who filed two conflicting reports was never subpoenaed (he was "on vacation"). Mumia's Black Panther history was waved like a bloody flag: Had he said, "All power to the people?" Yes, he admitted, he had said that. Character witnesses like poet Sonia Sanchez were cross-examined about their "anti-police" writings and associations.

Thus with Judge Sabo's help, an award-winning radical journalist with no criminal record was portrayed as a police assassin lying in wait since age 15. After Mumia's conviction, Sabo instructed the jury: "You are not being asked to kill anybody" by imposing the death penalty, since the defendant will get "appeal after appeal after appeal." Such instruction, grounds for reversal since Caldwell vs. Mississippi, was allowed in Mumia's case.

Mumia's appeals have so far gone unanswered. After being on Death Row for thirteen years, he is now the target of a police-led smear campaign. Last year NPR's "All Things Considered" canceled a scheduled series of his commentaries after the Fraternal Order of Police objected. Mumia's book, LIVE FROM DEATH ROW, has been greeted with a boycott and a skywriter circling the publisher's Boston offices: "Addison-Wesley Supports Cop Killers" Officer Faulkner's widow has gone on TV claiming that Mumia smiled at her when her husband's bloody shirt was shown--even though the record shows that Mumia wasn't in the courtroom that day.

Mumia and his supporters want only one thing--a new trial, with an unbiased judge and a competent lawyer. Defense attorney Leonard Weinglass has entered a motion to have Judge Sabo removed from the case because he cannot provide even the "appearance of fairness." The struggle became a race against time last month, when Pennsylvania Governor Ridge, though fully aware of the many questions in the case, signed a death warrant scheduling Mumia for execution August 17.

Mumia Abu-Jamal was not surprised. Several of the essays in his book deal with America's frantic "march toward the death chamber." As he wrote several years ago in the Yale Law Journal, "states that have not slain in a generation now ready their machinery: generators whine, poison liquids are mixed, and gases are measured and readied."

Unless Mumia Abu Jamal's final petition is answered, and he gets the fair trial he deserves, America will see its the first explicitly political execution since the Rosenbergs were put to death in 1953. Frank Rizzo's angry threat will be fulfilled, for one "new breed" journalist at least. It will stop. We won't hear any more criticism of the police from Mumia Abu-Jamal. Forever.

They shot his dog in front of his eyes, and then turned towards him to silence him with their death squad style tactics!

He was defending himself.
Fine. Then he was shot for 'defending' himself by opening fire on the police.

I must say "Fry Mumia" rather than "Free Mumia" radical scum he is! Cop killer! Fry him!
Well then, I think that settles it, we have to free him. Thanks CM for clearing that up.

first explicitly political execution since the Rosenbergs were put to death in 1953. Frank Rizzo's angry threat will be fulfilled, for one "new breed" journalist at least. It will stop. We won't hear any more criticism of the police from Mumia Abu-Jamal. Forever.


The Rosenbergs were executed for espionage and treason! And they had it coming!

Its fine that we ran the Indians out because we needed a place to live. Ruby ridge was just paranoia by the state because they didnt like a man and his family living there so they killed some of them.

Sometimes Big brother has just got to handle his business... Ridge, cliff, or bluff, You never go wee wee on Big brother's shoe... or he will stomp you for it.
The Pope

The Rosenbergs were executed for espionage and treason! And they had it coming!

...yeah... and Lee Harvey Oswald killed J.F.K. all by himself.

...yeah... and Lee Harvey Oswald killed J.F.K. all by himself.Be fair Dru. He didn't actually say the Rosenburgs were guilty of the charges. Maybe he believes in the occansial killing of innocent people to keep everyone else in line.

Its fine that we ran the Indians out because we needed a place to live. Ruby ridge was just paranoia by the state because they didnt like a man and his family living there so they killed some of them.

dude....no one lives where the plains indians did...have you ever been out there?

:( I hate the death penalty
and the government :mad:

Be fair Dru. He didn't actually say the Rosenburgs were guilty of the charges. Maybe he believes in the occansial killing of innocent people to keep everyone else in line.
Read Dark Sun, the Rosenburgs were guilty as sin...not that there weren't some other people that needed to be killed for treason as well...

Read Dark Sun, the Rosenburgs were guilty as sin...not that there weren't some other people that needed to be killed for treason as well...Link?

Link?
Read Dark Sun

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684824140/102-9384672-7572903?v=glance