NationStates Jolt Archive

During their mission in Afghanistan, four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight were injured when Major Harry Schmidt release a bomb because he didn't listen to air control and follow standard procedure.

He has filed an appeal, which was thankfully defeated.

The commander of Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia upheld the punishment ordered last month for Maj. Harry Schmidt: a severe reprimand and loss of a month's pay. Schmidt, 39, who was found guilty of dereliction of duty, also has agreed that he will never fly U.S. air force jets again, although he remains in the National Guard.

So, this is the punishment that he gets? I guess we know what four Canadians are worth to our American allies! This is sickening! This is just as aweful as when this ignorance asshole dropped the bomb.

This isn't justice! This isn't a freakin' slap on the hand!

I feel so badly for the men who were killed and for their family and friends.

'Friendly fire' pilot loses last appeal (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1091570647469&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)

Friendly fire incidents are just about as horrible as it can get.

The pilot was not some weekend warrior yahoo that got to ride his first plane.

So ask yourself.

What would be considered Justice?

What would be considered Revenge?

I dont see it (or should I say hope ) as a case of "They were just 4 damn canadians"

Wasn't Canada involved in the investigation?

What bothers me is the 38 seconds. if this was a case of "HOLD YOUR FIR*Bomb drops*" then I can see the "light" punishment.

But 38 seconds?

I don't get it.

Friendly fire incidents are just about as horrible as it can get.

The pilot was not some weekend warrior yahoo that got to ride his first plane.

So ask yourself.

What would be considered Justice?

What would be considered Revenge?

I dont see it (or should I say hope ) as a case of "They were just 4 damn canadians"

Wasn't Canada involved in the investigation?

What bothers me is the 38 seconds. if this was a case of "HOLD YOUR FIR*Bomb drops*" then I can see the "light" punishment.

But 38 seconds?

I don't get it.
Quite frankly, I think that counts as four counts of first degree murder.

Quite frankly, I think that counts as four counts of first degree murder.

First Degree?....in other words it was Pre-Mediatated and done with malice of thought?...I don't think so...

I would feel sorry for Canada if they weren't harboring deserters, but since they are I can't feel sorry for the nation, but the soldiers didn't deserve this.

I want to ask why you are condemning this pilot, obviously you've been in the cockpit of an F-16C at low altitudes watching the ground and just wishing to return to base without dying, hard to do when recieving fire in a hostile warzone. You've been in that situation and obviously concentrated more on the radio than the ground a few hundred feet below. Oh wait, you haven't been there

First Degree?....in other words it was Pre-Mediatated and done with malice of thought?...I don't think so...
38 seconds counts as premeditation.

*shrugs*

you want no friendly fire?

you want no innocent lives to be lost to trigger-happy pilots?

you want no court-martials like this one?





don't make war. it's as simple as that, but somehow the leaders never get the message.

*shrugs*

you want no friendly fire?

you want no innocent lives to be lost to trigger-happy pilots?

you want no court-martials like this one?





don't make war. it's as simple as that, but somehow the leaders never get the message.
Excuse me for being blunt, but they made war on us. Remember 9-11? Afghanistan was harboring and supporting Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Their own leader is in hiding with him and gave him resources for terrorist training camps. I think by making war on al Qaeda they are having problems warring with us (thus we haven't been attacked since 9-11)

http://www.stephaniesworld.com/canadiansgetsbombed.jpg

Quite frankly, I think that counts as four counts of first degree murder.

It was also shown that these guys who bombed the Canadian troops on a training exercise where on drugs! Military style wake-up pills. It's murder!

http://www.stephaniesworld.com/canadiansgetsbombed.jpg
wasn't it pointed out that those were British bombers?

It was also shown that these guys who bombed the Canadian troops on a training exercise where on drugs! Military style wake-up pills. It's murder!

You need to read a legal book and understand premeditated murder. It was manslaughter. These pilots did not intend to kill the Canadians. It was an accident. You need good evidence of Intent for 1st degreee murder. ALso for it to be premeditated this guy would have to have planned it out saying to himself something "OK, at 40 seconds after Waypoint Oscar I will drop these bombs on the Canadians."

Also, he may not have heard the radio call, check my above call when in low altitude combat the radio is the least of your concern, it's hard to hear with screeching Fy-119-100 jet engines on full power. He is concentrated on instruments and the ground and of course the only sounds he is expecting would be warnings from the RWR.

You need to read a legal book and understand premeditated murder. It was manslaughter. These pilots did not intend to kill the Canadians. It was an accident. You need good evidence of Intent for 1st degreee murder. ALso for it to be premeditated this guy would have to have planned it out saying to himself something "OK, at 40 seconds after Waypoint Oscar I will drop these bombs on the Canadians."

Also, he may not have heard the radio call, check my above call when in low altitude combat the radio is the least of your concern, it's hard to hear with screeching Fy-119-100 jet engines on full power. He is concentrated on instruments and the ground and of course the only sounds he is expecting would be warnings from the RWR.
Well, if they did issue a do not fire call, and he dropped the bombs 39 seconds later, that does count as premeditation, as he knew that there were people down there, and he clearly had enough time to realize this. The key is did he hear it, as you said.

Excuse me for being blunt, but they made war on us. Remember 9-11? Afghanistan was harboring and supporting Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Their own leader is in hiding with him and gave him resources for terrorist training camps. I think by making war on al Qaeda they are having problems warring with us (thus we haven't been attacked since 9-11)

you want to talk history? who was supporting bin laden in the 80s against the soviets? who helped him grow?

so you say, it's an american war. why canada is in there is ottawa's fault. why those canadians signed up is their fault (come on, you can't expect to join the military and not be killed). of course, our dearest trigger-happy pilot have his share of blame too...

wow, 4 deaths and 8 injuries can involve so many causes and steps...

i'm not dissing the canadians, because i think every life is a life and not simply a number in some government statistics or a newspaper article. but if you sign up to fight, what else can you expect but to ultimately die?

It was clearly not murder, but I also do believe that he got one hell of a light sentance for disobaying a direct order that cost 4 soldiers their lives.

If he had dropped the pickle on four other Americans under the same circumstances, I doubt he would still be allowed to stay in uniform. Yes, accidents do happen and this is far from the first friendly fire accident, but rarely do people get such a minor slap on the wrist for accidents that happened by directly contravening orders in an area that was clearly listed as off limits in briefings.

Snip.

They were on drugs, I'll settle for manslaughter.

You need to read a legal book and understand premeditated murder. It was manslaughter. These pilots did not intend to kill the Canadians. It was an accident. You need good evidence of Intent for 1st degreee murder. ALso for it to be premeditated this guy would have to have planned it out saying to himself something "OK, at 40 seconds after Waypoint Oscar I will drop these bombs on the Canadians."

Also, he may not have heard the radio call, check my above call when in low altitude combat the radio is the least of your concern, it's hard to hear with screeching Fy-119-100 jet engines on full power. He is concentrated on instruments and the ground and of course the only sounds he is expecting would be warnings from the RWR.


Actually, he acknowledged the radio call, but circled back low for a second time - despite having been told to hold - then called it hostile ground fire and dropped the pickle.

Actually, he acknowledged the radio call, but circled back low for a second time - despite having been told to hold - then called it hostile ground fire and dropped the pickle.
That isn't manslaugher, that's murder.

That isn't manslaugher, that's murder.

I agree, but I'd settle for manslaughter, it's better then nothing and it was proven they were on drugs!

In this guy's defense, the Air Force put him on speed. That's right, speed. Even though it keeps pilots awake, it throws off their perception of things. I've never supported that policy, and thinks that it was the Air Force, not Maj Schmidt, who owe an apology to the Canadians.

In this guy's defense, the Air Force put him on speed. That's right, speed. Even though it keeps pilots awake, it throws off their perception of things. I've never supported that policy, and thinks that it was the Air Force, not Maj Schmidt, who owe an apology to the Canadians.

Accomplice before and after the fact... throw them all in jail!

If he was on speed, manslaughter is fine, and that is why I think he got off with a slap on the wrist...they don't want to draw attention to the fact that he was high.

Accomplice before and after the fact... throw them all in jail!
He was under orders. If he didn't take speed, he couldn't fly. He had no choice.
We also have to consider that, like all fighter planes, there was a camera and voice recorder on board. He really thought that they were Taliban firing at him. It's what happens in nearly all friendly-fire incidencies.

He was under orders. If he didn't take speed, he couldn't fly. He had no choice.
We also have to consider that, like all fighter planes, there was a camera and voice recorder on board. He really thought that they were Taliban firing at him. It's what happens in nearly all friendly-fire incidencies.

Remember the Nuremberg War Crime Trials?

Same defense was used, "we were just following orders" didn't work and the Americans lead the way to convicting those Germans who "were just following orders" which no doubt they were. It's not an excuse in the eyes of military law. You see. not only is it your responsibility to refuse an unlawful order, it's your duty. That's a weak argument and one that I could take apart in a courtroom in about 5 minutes.

Remember the Nuremberg War Crime Trials?

Same defense was used, "we were just following orders" didn't work and the Americans lead the way to convicting those Germans who "were just following orders" which no doubt they were. It's not an excuse in the eyes of military law. You see. not only is it your responsibility to refuse an unlawful order, it's your duty. That's a weak argument and one that I could take apart in a courtroom in about 5 minutes.
Same defense, different scenario

See, Steph...we're not convicting Germans. We're convicting Americans by Americans. You think they'll get the same sentence?

I thought you, of all people, would understand the simple fact that America wouldn't do the same do a German as they would to an American, as long as it is within their best interests.

It's not cruel, it's how it works. I'm sure Canada would have that type of policy if it were as militarily powerful as America.

Same defense, different scenario

See, Steph...we're not convicting Germans. We're convicting Americans by Americans. You think they'll get the same sentence?

I thought you, of all people, would understand the simple fact that America wouldn't do the same do a German as they would to an American, as long as it is within their best interests.

It's not cruel, it's how it works. I'm sure Canada would have that type of policy if it were as militarily powerful as America.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of the Americans and the double standard they live by.. Unlike Canada, when our most famous regiment pulled that shit in Somalia, we disband them! Some countries, believe it or not, do take accountability for their actions. The USA just isn't one of them!

*Notes ICC*

I agree with those of you who are saying manslaughter.

I think he should have been charged with this, since he did kill allies and did so even though being told to hold fire.

I condemn his actions because they were wanton and reckless. I hold little respect for the US military because of their leniency on the matter.

Sure it's only four lives, but those four lives meant a lot to four familes and dozens of friends. Some poor child wll never know his or her father.

That is true for all wars; they cause unnecessary death.

Remember the Nuremberg War Crime Trials?

Same defense was used, "we were just following orders" didn't work and the Americans lead the way to convicting those Germans who "were just following orders" which no doubt they were. It's not an excuse in the eyes of military law. You see. not only is it your responsibility to refuse an unlawful order, it's your duty. That's a weak argument and one that I could take apart in a courtroom in about 5 minutes.
So we're playing the prosecutor/defense game. OK, I love this one. When these pilots were given speed, they had no idea it'd result in the loss of life on the part of allies. Furthermore, they had no idea that they were firing at Canadians. For most of the convicted Nazis, they knew exactly who they were fighting against. They knew that they were conducting horrid experiments on Allied POWs, and shoving Jews, Slavs, and virtually every non-German into gas furnaces.
Personanlly, however, I have trouble seeing the legal grounds of either the Nuremburg Trials or the Tokyo Tribunal. While it was obvious that they committed crimes against humanity, no organization at the time of their power did rule their actions illegal. Thus, their charges were ex post facto, and in a legal sense, it was little more than a kangaroo court for the victors.

So we're playing the prosecutor/defense game. OK, I love this one. When these pilots were given speed, they had no idea it'd result in the loss of life on the part of allies. Furthermore, they had no idea that they were firing at Canadians

So why , do tell, did they not hold fire when they were told to from command? Maybe cause they were all gun-ho and didn't follow the order because they were all stoned on speed! :rolleyes:

So why , do tell, did they not hold fire when they were told to from command? Maybe cause they were all gun-ho and didn't follow the order because they were all stoned on speed! :rolleyes:
Exactly. Speed alters perception, as any drug does. Now put yourself in the place of that fighter pilot. You perceive that the enemy is shooting at your plane, and may bring it down soon. If you live, you'll be in enemy territory. Would you listen to command that you must hold your fire? Obviously, he was not being fired at, but the speed did. The pilot had no idea that the effects would be so chronic on him.