NationStates Jolt Archive

Simple question really.
Do you think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU?

Not yet. No.

Turkey wants to be part of the EU really bad. Greece will probably try to prevent it with all its might.

I say give it another ten years. The issues that bother me most are the Kurds (they should get their own nation, out of parts of Iraq, Turkey, etc), and human rights.

Why not. I mean there are obvious benefits to Europe as a whole such as new economic markets and so on. Also the fact that Turkey is a Muslim nation opens up alot more possibilities for co-operation between the traditional east and west divide over religion. Surely thats what we need right now. Co-operation, not exclusion.

Turkey wants to be part of the EU really bad. Greece will probably try to prevent it with all its might.

No, infact Greece along with the UK and Germany are the main countries in Europe pushing for Turkish intergration. Turns out Greece actually wants to sort out Cyprus and feels the best way to co-operate with Turkey is if its in the EU.

Turns out Greece actually wants to sort out Cyprus and feels the best way to co-operate with Turkey is if its in the EU.

Greece wants to sort out Cyprus, but not in the 'Give them everything they want' Annan Plan way. Why should 17% of the population be guaranteed 50% of the seats in the parliament? Why is the right of return policy so bad and one sided? And why should Turkey still be allowed to station troops on the island?

Please don't come down on one side or the other when you don't have extensive background knowledge of the situation.

Why not. I mean there are obvious benefits to Europe as a whole such as new economic markets and so on. Also the fact that Turkey is a Muslim nation opens up alot more possibilities for co-operation between the traditional east and west divide over religion. Surely thats what we need right now. Co-operation, not exclusion.


but also the fact
that if they become a part of the eu

france england belgium netherlands germany
spain probably to will be flooded with turks!
all those uneducated poor ppl will all emigrate from turkey and mess the whole social system up
before you know
you have more moslims then white ppl in west europe
and those moslims they are like rabbits

Birds in the EU?

Simple question really.
Do you think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU?

What about the Canary Islands, eh?

No. Turkey should not join. Ever.

Simple question really.
Do you think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU?

Nope.

They need to take away deathpenalty for starters.

And I just wanna point out that the american president shouldn't in any way make it his buissnise(sp?) wither EU accepts Turkey or not.

Give them another decade of not having appalling human rights and maybe: I'm pretty sure they only recently made it legal to speak Kurdish, that gives you some idea of where Turkey's at in terms of civil rights.

And the UK has managed to be on reasonably good terms with Iran - up until Iraq, anyway.

Nope.

They need to take away deathpenalty for starters.


Let us not forget that the UK still has the death penalty on its books despite being a member of the EU.

Let us not forget that the UK still has the death penalty on its books despite being a member of the EU.

What?

I think you can be hung for attacking one of the Queen's naval yards, but I can't imagine they'd put it in to practise.

What?

I believe the current situation is that in the UK for high treason and piracy with violence there remains the possibility of giving a death sentence, but not carrying it out, and let us not forget that "in times of war or imminent threat of war" all member states are free to carry out the death sentence. It remains a somewhat confusing mess - for example, would the invasion of Iraq count as "times of war"? Presumably if the UK had issued a declaration of war it would have done...

I think you can be hung for attacking one of the Queen's naval yards, but I can't imagine they'd put it in to practise.

No, 'Arson in A Royal Dockyard' ceased to carry the possibility of a death sentence in the 70s.

I stand corrected.

but also the fact
that if they become a part of the eu

france england belgium netherlands germany
spain probably to will be flooded with turks!
all those uneducated poor ppl will all emigrate from turkey and mess the whole social system up
before you know
you have more moslims then white ppl in west europe
and those moslims they are like rabbits

Get back to your white supremacist cave, grow up, learn to communicate in a proper way and learn some facts.

I believe the current situation is that in the UK for high treason and piracy with violence there remains the possibility of giving a death sentence, but not carrying it out, and let us not forget that "in times of war or imminent threat of war" all member states are free to carry out the death sentence. It remains a somewhat confusing mess - for example, would the invasion of Iraq count as "times of war"? Presumably if the UK had issued a declaration of war it would have done...
I thought the ECHR rid us if that. Admittedly, I haven't read it.

france england belgium netherlands germany
spain probably to will be flooded with turks!
all those uneducated poor ppl will all emigrate from turkey and mess the whole social system up
before you know
The same was said about parts of Eastern Europe joining the EU: It is unlikely to happen because travelling across a continent is actually very expensive. Greece might see an increase in migrant labour, and maybe countries around there but the oft-predicted "flood" won't happen.

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but are the UK etc obliged to provide benefits to migrant workers from other parts of the EU? So far as I remember the free movement enables anyone to seek work, not benefits.

I'm a little confused here. Why is Turkey being an EU member being disputed now when they were a member of the EEC? If they were a member of the organization that preceded the EU (the EEC) why are we questioning their membership now? Can a nation be kicked out of the EU? Were not all EEC nations automatically moved into the EU?

Forgive me for my ignorance...

*Hides so they wont take away my Irish Passport*

Let us not forget that the UK still has the death penalty on its books despite being a member of the EU.

Sorry, neglected the fact that EU may be more tollerant to this when a memberstate is in war. Anyway, it's a fact that Turkey have the deathpenalty even in peacetimes and actually make use of it. And tbh, your remark is just kind of a technicality. ;)

I'm a little confused here. Why is Turkey being an EU member being disputed now when they were a membar of the EEC?

They werent members but had a special standing as favored trading partners.

They werent members but had a special standing as favored trading partners.
Ahhh..thank you.

So Turkey is not currently a member of the EU?
Can EU countries be kicked out of the EU?

No, infact Greece along with the UK and Germany are the main countries in Europe pushing for Turkish intergration. Turns out Greece actually wants to sort out Cyprus and feels the best way to co-operate with Turkey is if its in the EU.
That´s going to be changed if we have "regime change" in Germany in 2006 and the consrvatives take over. And by the way: there was a government change to the conservatives in Greece as well. So Greece isn´t pushing for that any more. It is Britain and the US who meddle around in our business. In the case of Britain it is of course OK since they are an EU member - although a very intrasigent one. But they US isn´t. They have no right to tell us what to do. Or what would you say if the EU would tell the US how it should conduct its relationship with Mexico (demanding EU membership of Turkey is like demanding the US to completly open its border to Mexico and allow all Mexicans to migrate to the US - What would you say if the EU would do that. The comments of President Bush in that respect - as well as those of Clinton in 2000 are outrageous. Don´t meddle around in our business):

And of course I say NO to EU membership of Turkey at least in the next 20 years. The EU has already enough economic and social problems. It can´t chew the Turkish one additionally and Europe can´t integrate the 5-10 million migrants the Turkish membership would cause (most would come to Germany) only in the first five years according to cautious estimates.
Therefore I clearly say: NO, NO, NO.

They werent members but had a special standing as favored trading partners.
A status they should keep. But they should not become a full member.

That´s going to be changed if we have "regime change" in Germany in 2006 and the consrvatives take over. And by the way: there was a government change to the conservatives in Greece as well. So Greece isn´t pushing for that any more. It is Britain and the US who meddle around in our business. In the case of Britain it is of course OK since they are an EU member - although a very intrasigent one. But they US isn´t. They have no right to tell us what to do. Or what would you say if the EU would tell the US how it should conduct its relationship with Mexico (demanding EU membership of Turkey is like demanding the US to completly open its border to Mexico and allow all Mexicans to migrate to the US - What would you say if the EU would do that. The comments of President Bush in that respect - as well as those of Clinton in 2000 are outrageous. Don´t meddle around in our business):

And of course I say NO to EU membership of Turkey at least in the next 20 years. The EU has already enough economic and social problems. It can´t chew the Turkish one additionally and Europe can´t integrate the 5-10 million migrants the Turkish membership would cause (most would come to Germany) only in the first five years according to cautious estimates.
Therefore I clearly say: NO, NO, NO.
Chirac is also pro Turkey.

Ahhh..thank you.

So Turkey is not currently a member of the EU?
Can EU countries be kicked out of the EU?

EU countries have the right to leave the EU. That is also explicitly stated in the draft constituition.
Whether countries can be kicked out is a disputed question. It never happened.
If countries are in material breach of rules however there can be fines against them. So: in reality if a country isn´t willing to accept the rules it has to leave.
Thus far it was always possible to find a compromise if disputes accured.

Turkye in the EU? NOOOOOOOOOOO

If that happens, The EU rules will make the Turkish army lose its current strong position. The muslim fundamentalists will come to power(through the AK party) and Turkye will turn into another muslim fundamentalist nation.

There's only one reason these fundamentalists havent risen to power yet. Whenever they do the army stages a coup and installs a secular government. Last time that happened was in 1982. And the EU doesnt want armies having such power.

Yes it is very possible, the muslim AK party has gained alot of support in the past months because of whats going on in Iraq. No more Army intervention will be the sign these fundamentalists were waiting for to go for power.

And then we have Mr Bush who goes to Turkye and tells that Prime minister "The EU should give you a date... " poor Mr Bush, he doesnt know what he's doing.

Chirac is also pro Turkey.
Not very much, though.
Chirac was also anti-american in contrast to most other conservatives in Europe.
And Alain Juppé, the head of the UMP (who just had to resign but still is a very important figure) is against the Turkish membership.
The main supporters of it are the US, Britain and the stupid political left - especially the greens - in Germany, who support that against the will of the majority of the German people. But in 2006 that very likely change when there is "regime change" in Germany.

Ahhh..thank you.

So Turkey is not currently a member of the EU?
Can EU countries be kicked out of the EU?

They haven't worked out a way how you volenteerly can leave it, that atleast i know.

And then we have Mr Bush who goes to Turkye and tells that Prime minister "The EU should give you a date... " poor Mr Bush, he doesnt know what he's doing.
Mr. Clinton wasn´t any better though. In a speech in 2000 he demanded the EU to give Turkey and Russia membership of it. That is really outrageous. Obviously the US wants the EU to expand indefinately - so that it isn´t any more able to make decision like the UN. The EU has to be weary not to overstretch its enlargement.

It would be a great idea to have Turkey in the EU, but not yet. Think about it. We can have the UK and France building proverbial bridges to their former colonies, the Finns can be nice to Russia (if they want to be), Spain / South America, and Turkey would be a good link for the Muslim world.

But not yet. Nowhere near yet, in fact. It's supposed to be a European UNION and Turkey is still way too different IMHO.

They haven't worked out a way how you volenteerly can leave it, that atleast i know.
The draft European constituition cleary states the right of every member state to leave the EU. So it is possible. However the country would of course lose a lot if it decides to do so - The common market, the freedom of good, services, capital and labour all around the EU. Well: I assume it would almost be insane if a member decides to leave - it would harm its own economy which is closely linked with that of other members.
Therefore it seems very unlikely that any country would do that. Even the anti-Eurepean British conservatives are against leaving the EU as a matter of fact.

Mr. Clinton wasn´t any better though. In a speech in 2000 he demanded the EU to give Turkey and Russia membership of it. That is really outrageous. Obviously the US wants the EU to expand indefinately - so that it isn´t any more able to make decision like the UN. The EU has to be weary not to overstretch its enlargement.
And for at least the next 80, 90 years it's stretched far enough as it is. Turkey can't be a member. Not even Greece, Spain and Portugal have pulled out of their "3rd world" status yet. And they have been members for quit a while now. Now we have 10 new members. And several others will be included soon. (Rumania, Bulgaria etc...) The last enlargement was to big, to quik as it was. The last thing we need is Turkey.

The draft European constituition cleary states the right of every member state to leave the EU. So it is possible. However the country would of course lose a lot if it decides to do so - The common market, the freedom of good, services, capital and labour all around the EU. Well: I assume it would almost be insane if a member decides to leave - it would harm its own economy which is closely linked with that of other members.
Therefore it seems very unlikely that any country would do that. Even the anti-Eurepean British conservatives are against leaving the EU as a matter of fact.

Reread my post. I don't state that it isn't possible to leave the EU. I state that how a member can leave isn't clear. That's different.

Anyway, it may harm the economy and yet it may not. But I think more freedom(this time meaning those who make the disitions are closer to you) it may be worth it. And I doubt a member that leaves EU would colapse economicly.

I thought the ECHR rid us if that. Admittedly, I haven't read it.

Apparently the EHCR prevents the UK from actually executing anyone, but it is still technically possible to be sentenced to death here. The quote about "times of war" is part of the EHCR, by the way.

Apparently the EHCR prevents the UK from actually executing anyone, but it is still technically possible to be sentenced to death here. The quote about "times of war" is part of the EHCR, by the way.
Ah OK.

The same was said about parts of Eastern Europe joining the EU: It is unlikely to happen because travelling across a continent is actually very expensive. .
No, it isn´t. You are talking nonsense by the way. Germany has already 3 million Turks (around them 500000 kurds). It can be assumed that especially Kurds are going to leave Turkey if they are able to - but also poor Turks. They are going to go to Europe - and especially to Germany with its big Turkish community - to seek work. And of course they would get since the would dump the price of the labour market. The results would be dramatic - fall of wagues especially in the less qualified job areas - rise of nationalism - social conflicts. Wake up, man. We can´t bear that. And the numbers are clear. German orientalists Peter Scholl-Latour had an discussion in Turkey about it and asked whether Turkish membership wouldn´t lead to the immidate migration of about 5 million people to the EU , mainly to Germany. The answer he got was: "Not five million, ten million."
That´s what we are talking about.

Reread my post. I don't state that it isn't possible to leave the EU. I state that how a member can leave isn't clear. That's different.
Anyway, it may harm the economy and yet it may not. But I think more freedom(this time meaning those who make the disitions are closer to you) it may be worth it. And I doubt a member that leaves EU would colapse economicly.
How close is your national government to you????
I think that isn´t the right question. Any government is distant to the people.
The question is rather: do you like the policy. And you may dislike the policy of the EU - but that doesn´t make its existence unnecessary. Or would you say if you don´t like the policy of your national government - just get rid of it also?????
I rather like to see changes in the EU. The shift more to the political right which is happening I welcome very much. Though I know: half is opposed to that. But that´s politics. You can´t satisfy everybody.
Given the economic globalisation I think increased cooperation between the countries in unavoidable.
That may not be the case for the US which is after all as big as the entire European continent. But it is the case for European countries who are after if they act alone like little dwarfs. Especially in the economic field the EU is very important and its strenghtens the positions in negotiations inside the GATT for example, where the EU is an equal trading block to NAFTA. If the European countries would act alone and would play against each other they would not be able to push for their common interests as efficent as they do together. I even think that without economic and political cooperation Europe would become irrelevant in the international arena since the focus of world politics doesn´t lay in Europe anymore but in the Asian Pacific Region (US, China, South Asia) and the Middle East.

I don't see they should not join. But the time is wrong. They will offer no real benefit to the Union. Not economically anyway.
Some people say "a tie with th emuslim world.....".
Europe has very good ties with the muslim world. There is a large minority already within europe. We already give large sums of money to help in the middle east, etc..
We should be trying harder to get norway and switzerland to join. At least they are rich and educated (all in all).

We should be trying harder to get norway and switzerland to join. At least they are rich and educated (all in all).
And that´s why they are not going to join, especially not Switzerland. Believe me: they would be the last country to join the EU.
They only joined the UN in 2002.
Switzerland is proud of its neutrality and independence. In 1985 the Swiss people rejected UN membership in a referendum. In 2000 a majority approved of it, though.
But the EU is strongly rejected. I doubt that Switzerland joins even in the next 50 years.

you'd be surprised. Their economy is still strong, but it has weakened. The EU always looks more attractive when you've got less money in your pocket

you'd be surprised. Their economy is still strong, but it has weakened. The EU always looks more attractive when you've got less money in your pocket
I thought that Switzerland was relucant to join because it would not be allowed to keep the banks as secret as they are (or something).

I thought that Switzerland was relucant to join because it would not be allowed to keep the banks as secret as they are (or something).
That is an issue. Though that is also an issue for some EU members - like Luxemburg.
The EU and Switzerland have made an agreement, though.
Thus far many EU citizens - especially from Germany, but also others - bring their money to Switzerland. Switzerland doesn´t tax the profits of foreign nationals though. And it also doesn´t report to their countries about it. Well: of course a very good opportunity to "safe" taxes. It is estimated that German nationals alone brought 150 billion Euro to Switzerland to avoid taxation.

The compromise between the EU and Switzerland - which is by the way also valid for Luxemburg - enshures the bank secret. From 2005 onward (now postponed from January 1 to July 1 thoug) the countries have to tax it. This taxation of the interests and other profits has to increase up to 35% in the year 2010. The country has to sent 80% of the tax revenues to the country where the national comes from.
This form of taxation respects the anonimity of the bank customer and the holy bank secret (it is holy in Switzerland), since it is not revealed who ownes the account. The home country just receives anonimously 80% of the revenues of the new tax on interests and profits which Switzerland and Luxemburg have to introduce and to increase up to 35% in 2010.
Switzerland was very good in the negotiations though. Simultaneously to the introduction of the tax Switzerland is becoming a member of the Shengen treaty: That means: no more border control: a matter which could be used to pressure Switzerland. Now the EU had to agree to give it up in return for their concessions regarding the taxation of interests and other profits. Furthernmore Switzerland and the EU agreed on a new traffic treaty - a very hot issue due to the fact that the alp region (Austria, Switzerland) suffers a lot due to the increased truck traffic in Europe.
So: Switzerland is actually having a special partnership with the EU and negotiates many bilateral agreements. Many people in Switzerland think that is a very good position and that there are better of with that than the would be with a membership in the EU.
Generally: Switzerland has an aversion to join any multinational organisation. Their neutrality after all saved them for the main desasters in Europe in the last 200 years. Well: only Napoleon occupied parts of Switzerland - but just parts of it.
So: Switzerland is not going to leave this position.
Even if the government would like to do so - small parts of it do, other parts don´t - it is not possible since their would be a referendum. And an overwhelming majority would reject that.

How close is your national government to you????
I think that isn´t the right question. Any government is distant to the people.
The question is rather: do you like the policy. And you may dislike the policy of the EU - but that doesn´t make its existence unnecessary. Or would you say if you don´t like the policy of your national government - just get rid of it also?????
I rather like to see changes in the EU. The shift more to the political right which is happening I welcome very much. Though I know: half is opposed to that. But that´s politics. You can´t satisfy everybody.
Given the economic globalisation I think increased cooperation between the countries in unavoidable.
That may not be the case for the US which is after all as big as the entire European continent. But it is the case for European countries who are after if they act alone like little dwarfs. Especially in the economic field the EU is very important and its strenghtens the positions in negotiations inside the GATT for example, where the EU is an equal trading block to NAFTA. If the European countries would act alone and would play against each other they would not be able to push for their common interests as efficent as they do together. I even think that without economic and political cooperation Europe would become irrelevant in the international arena since the focus of world politics doesn´t lay in Europe anymore but in the Asian Pacific Region (US, China, South Asia) and the Middle East.

Geographicly, Borås(70 kms east of Gothenburg) is alot closer to Stockholm then Brussel. Mentally or how to express it I think it's alot closer. And no, I don't like thier policies(EU), and some things I don't like about the national goverment either. I don't think EU should be disolved, just that I don't think it's all worth it to be in it. I think we would have been better of to make a pact or union or whatever with the Nordic nations (Denmark, Finland and Norway). We wouldn't have a huge population, but we would prolly be very strong for our size. Also, we have alot more incoment with eachother then we have with the people from the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Greece etc.

Geographicly, Borås(70 kms east of Gothenburg) is alot closer to Stockholm then Brussel. Mentally or how to express it I think it's alot closer. And no, I don't like thier policies(EU), and some things I don't like about the national goverment either. I don't think EU should be disolved, just that I don't think it's all worth it to be in it. I think we would have been better of to make a pact or union or whatever with the Nordic nations (Denmark, Finland and Norway). We wouldn't have a huge population, but we would prolly be very strong for our size. Also, we have alot more incoment with eachother then we have with the people from the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Greece etc.
So: like the Kalmar Union - spelling??? - in the middle ages???
It is right that there are a lot of differences in Europe. The nordic countries could form an union, the romanic countries could, well: and Germany could form an union in Central Europe. At least Austria and probably the Netherlands would be part of that.

But I don´t like the idea to see new divisions in Europe. So the EU is generally a good thing to avoid it. But with its enlargement I do think that cooperation between regions in the EU becomes more important. For example there is such an instituition like the Baltic sea cooperation council.

It's a quandry. Turkey is really a secular Islamic state, but during the Roman and Byzantine empires that area was part of Europe as a greater Roman then a Christian empire. In reality that area is Europe and the Middle East.

So: like the Kalmar Union - spelling??? - in the middle ages???

It's not thought as recreating a union that was created more then 600 years ago.

It's a quandry. Turkey is really a secular Islamic state, but during the Roman and Byzantine empires that area was part of Europe as a greater Roman then a Christian empire. In reality that area is Europe and the Middle East.
And in 1453 the Byzantine Empire collapsed and the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople and renamed it Instabul. And the Ottoman Empire was an islamic empire, though.
I agree with you on one point. It is an eurasian country. Though 95% of its territory is located in Asia and only 5% in Europe it may be to some higher degree be an European country.
But then again: Russia is an Eurasian country as well: But it can´t become a member of the EU, that is clear.

The EU enlargement has limits otherwise the EU overstretches. At least in the next 20-30 years the EU simply can`t take Turkey as a member.
And due to the islamism in Turkey it is questionable whether this country realy could become a member of the EU. After all: it is also a country of the Middle East. Probably a "SPECIAL PARTNERSHIP" between the EU and Turkey would be a solution to this conflict. Turkey and the EU would open their markets for capital and goods completly and would closely cooperate in security policy but the labour market of the EU would remain closed for Turks - well: countries may give work permits but no complete opening of the labour market which would after all lead to 5-10 million Turks coming to Europe very soon.

It's a quandry. Turkey is really a secular Islamic state, but during the Roman and Byzantine empires that area was part of Europe as a greater Roman then a Christian empire. In reality that area is Europe and the Middle East.
Egypt, Marrocco, Tunisia, Lybia, Algeria, Mesopotamia also were part of the Roman empire. So whats are you trying to say?

but also the fact
that if they become a part of the eu

france england belgium netherlands germany
spain probably to will be flooded with turks!
all those uneducated poor ppl will all emigrate from turkey and mess the whole social system up
before you know
you have more moslims then white ppl in west europe
and those moslims they are like rabbits

lol damn those muslims! haha
I doubt that's gonna happen anytime soon, even if muslims are 'like rabbits', as you so eloquently put it. Even if a lot of muslims moved here they'd still be a relatively small group.
Anyway, who says 'white ppl' can't be muslim? :)

Anyway, Turkey should probably improve its human rights record before it is allowed in, but if it does, i don't see anything wrong with it