NationStates Jolt Archive

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?

Who has the largest economy (EU)

Who is the most environmentally friendly (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who has better public services (EU)

Who has less proportional poverty (EU)

Who has fatter people (US)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about anyone but the rich (US)

long live europa

oh and screw turkey!!

Damn right my European brother!

Err...you including Canada and Mexico in this?

Nah, they are good states.

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?

Who has the largest economy (EU)

Who is the most environmentally friendly (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who has better public services (EU)

Who has less proportional poverty (EU)

Who has fatter people (US)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about anyone but the rich (US) References?


1. Might want to check on that....

2. Yeah, we have only had a few hundred years use of our land, not the thousands you have....

3. That will come to bite you one day, the EU will break down because of "nationalism."

4. I would not be so sure...I have lived in Europe as well. Just ain't so.

5. Maybe, but thats a misnomer due to the "sharing" of jobs in some countries, France in particular.

6. Yeah, we like to eat...but I am a slim 150 pounds and eat damn well whatever I want

7. Thats something to be proud of?

8. References?

Largest Economy?

"If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States."

-Swedish Institute of Trade

Patriotism? Why did you start this thread then? Why do Europeans spend so much time attacking the US?

Do not fret - we will be there to bail you out once the love-fest is over and you all start another war

"The 1999 GDP of the United States was $9.3 trillion, according the CIA World Factbook. The combined 1999 GDP of the 15 European Union nations is about $8 trillion, making it the second largest economy in the world."

http://www.govspot.com/features/eu.htm

Best Places to Live

Rank Country
1 Norway eu
2 Sweden eu
3 Canada uem
4 Belgium eu
5 Australia uem
6 United States us....
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
11 Switzerland
12 France
13 UK
14 Denmark
15 Austria

and the rest eu

You always point out that once the Europeans were people of expansionism, but those days are over and now it is the US that is imperialist. As for your standing on your own continent - your pretty much hated by Central and Southern America. And new polls are starting to show the Canadians don't think that much of you too. I remember a Canadian saying that thier good relationship with America was like "crawling into bed with a known rapist."

As for the economy:

GDP: Ranked 1st *

Total: € 9.61·10¹² (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=1-11032004-EN-AP-EN&mode=download)

GDP/Head: € 21,125

(Just asked my brother who has finished his Masters in Economics at the LSE.)

And isn't Ode to Joy the greatest National Anthem ever?
In response to my comments about Public Services:
"I would not be so sure...I have lived in Europe as well. Just ain't so."

Two words:
Free Healthcare (among other things - like Social Security, a great police force, great transportation e.t.c)

You always point out that once the Europeans were people of expansionism, but those days are over and now it is the US that is imperialist. As for your standing on your own continent - your pretty much hated by Central and Southern America. And new polls are starting to show the Canadians don't think that much of you too. I remember a Canadian saying that thier good relationship with America was like "crawling into bed with a known rapist."

As for the economy:

GDP: Ranked 1st *

Total: € 9.61·10¹² (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=1-11032004-EN-AP-EN&mode=download)

GDP/Head: € 21,125

(Just asked my brother who has finished his Masters in Economics at the LSE.)
And isn't Ode to Joy the greatest National Anthem ever?

Well, I would not worry too much about polls, they can be made to say anything. As for the Canadians liking the US? Well, they are our largest trading partner, so they need us as much as we need them. They have a VERY liberal gov't right now and that creates an unnatural atmosphere. I for one would not want to live there, too damn cold!

canada > us big time

I really don't care much about the other stuff, but I hear Europe has more skin on primetime, so they get my vote!

yeah another thing

like what the hell is up with that i really don't get it

you guys have like the biggest pron industry of the world
your media is everyday showing images of killing and war

but if you see one nipple on tv
the whole country is in shock

like wtf!!

Yep, central and south america hates us - that's why they are all trying to move here

We get along with canada just fine; we just like to rag on one another

Well, I would not worry too much about polls, they can be made to say anything. As for the Canadians liking the US? Well, they are our largest trading partner, so they need us as much as we need them. They have a VERY liberal gov't right now and that creates an unnatural atmosphere. I for one would not want to live there, too damn cold!

I'm a Canadian.. as for our very liberal government. it's not just right now, the liberal party has held power from 1935 with only 16 years in a 68 year period has Canada not had a liberal government. Last conservative government Canada had was in the mid/late 80's. So those 16 years have been quite spread out as well. Canada in the last century has basically been liberal. This isn't a new thing. In fact the PM that did hold power in the 80's for the conservatives has gone down in history as the most unpopular PM in our history. So there ya have it!

As for the cold.. unless you live in the Yukon, lol, it's really not much colder in Canada then it is in the Northern states, I myself live about a 45 minute drive from NY. In fact in some of our provinces such as B.C, they actually hardly get any snow at all in winter.

You always point out that once the Europeans were people of expansionism, but those days are over and now it is the US that is imperialist. As for your standing on your own continent - your pretty much hated by Central and Southern America. And new polls are starting to show the Canadians don't think that much of you too. I remember a Canadian saying that thier good relationship with America was like "crawling into bed with a known rapist."

As for the economy:

GDP: Ranked 1st *

Total: € 9.61·10¹² (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=1-11032004-EN-AP-EN&mode=download)

GDP/Head: € 21,125

(Just asked my brother who has finished his Masters in Economics at the LSE.)

And isn't Ode to Joy the greatest National Anthem ever?
In response to my comments about Public Services:
"I would not be so sure...I have lived in Europe as well. Just ain't so."

Two words:
Free Healthcare (among other things - like Social Security, a great police force, great transportation e.t.c)

Hmm.. Your source says of 2002 GDP

EU: 9.613 billion e
US: 11.084 billion e

Also 2002 growth

EU: 0.5 %
US: 3.6%

Simply writing "GDP: Ranked 1st" doesnt make it so

Did

Hmm.. Your source says of 2002 GDP

EU: 9.613 billion e
US: 11.084 billion e

Also 2002 growth

EU: 0.5 %
US: 3.6%

Simply writing "GDP: Ranked 1st" doesnt make it so

Did

Ok a few questions.

Since the accession of the new member nations the GDP has gone up, so saying the source is 2002 counts against you (as it is pre-accession).

Secondly - Do you have a master's degree in Economics?

Thirdly - Smaller economic growth over a larger economy (as you demonstrated in your idiotic example) doesn't necessarily mean that the economy in question is doing badly. Larger economies grow more slowly as a rule.

Talk about not being able to accept anything :D

I'm a Canadian.. as for our very liberal government. it's not just right now, the liberal party has held power from 1935 with only 16 years in a 68 year period has Canada not had a liberal government. Last conservative government Canada had was in the mid/late 80's. So those 16 years have been quite spread out as well. Canada in the last century has basically been liberal. This isn't a new thing. In fact the PM that did hold power in the 80's for the conservatives has gone down in history as the most unpopular PM in our history. So there ya have it!

As for the cold.. unless you live in the Yukon, lol, it's really not much colder in Canada then it is in the Northern states, I myself live about a 45 minute drive from NY. In fact in some of our provinces such as B.C, they actually hardly get any snow at all in winter.

I will concede that I do not know much about Canadian politics and what party is in power. Yes I am a typical American in that sense. However, being from Florida I probaly know more about Puerto Rican, Mexican, Cuban and any other caribbean politics than most Canadians would. If the temp drops below 70F...it is too cold for me. I have had enough cold weather for my liking. Our Canadian and European friends are welcome to all the cold weather.

Ok a few questions.

Since the accession of the new member nations the GDP has gone up, so saying the source is 2002 counts against you (as it is pre-accession).

Dude, READ YOUR OWN FREAKING SOURCES. Even though it says 2002 GDP, your source EXPLICITLY says that its data is for the 2002 GDP of all 25 nations in the EU in 2004. And I beg you to use your underdeveloped brain for just a brief moment. If lets say the US economy did not grow at all from 2002 to 2003 then by your source's numbers Europe's 2002 economy (9.6 trillion) must grow at a rate of 15.3% annually to match the United States 2003 GDP (which at around 11 trillion equals the 2002 GDP). Which is fucking impossible.

China and India which are some of the fastest growing economies on earth have growth of at most 10%.

BTW I wrote billion in an earlier post but it should have been trillion. Sorry about the typo.


Secondly - Do you have a master's degree in Economics?

No, but I can compare the sizes of numbers, have a basic grasp of mathematics, and I READ MY OWN SOURCES. That's all you need to know how to do, since the definition of economy size is GDP, not anything more complicated than that.

Also I don't automatically accept all the opinions of a so-called "expert" just because he has a title, and you shouldn't either, or else you will be just like the mindless herd-mentality sheep you like to call other people.


Thirdly - Smaller economic growth over a larger economy (as you demonstrated in your idiotic example) doesn't necessarily mean that the economy in question is doing badly. Larger economies grow more slowly as a rule.
USA's economy is bigger! And has more growth than Europe's.

Talk about not being able to accept anything :D
I am accepting everything your source says, and your sources flatly contradicts you.

Gah I hate the word 'dude' its so American :D

"Currently (May 2004) the EU, considered as a unit, has the largest economy in the world, with a 2002 GDP of 9.613·10¹² euro. The United States, by comparison, has the largest GDP of a single country - 10.450·10¹² dollars (or 8.782·10¹² euro at the current exchange rate of $1.19 per euro). The European Union continues to enjoy a significant trade surplus, as opposed to the widening trade deficit being experienced by the US. However, as of 2004 the European Union has generally been suffering stagnant economic growth and low employment (averaged across the Union).

The EU economy is expected to grow further over the next decade as more countries join the union - especially considering that the new States are usually poorer than the EU average, and hence the expected fast GDP growth will help achieve the dynamic of the united Europe. However, GDP per capita of the whole Union will fall over the short-term. In the long-term, the EU's economy suffers from significant demographic challenges, with a below-replacement birth rate."

Well, North America has a better economy, but European streets are a nice place to walk at night (except in Rome).

Well, North America has a better economy, but European streets are a nice place to walk at night (except in Rome).

Parts of London are pretty bad too. Plus Birmingham is really bad.

Well, North America has a better economy, but European streets are a nice place to walk at night (except in Rome).

No it doesn't.

Ok a few questions.

Since the accession of the new member nations the GDP has gone up, so saying the source is 2002 counts against you (as it is pre-accession).

Secondly - Do you have a master's degree in Economics?

Thirdly - Smaller economic growth over a larger economy (as you demonstrated in your idiotic example) doesn't necessarily mean that the economy in question is doing badly. Larger economies grow more slowly as a rule.

Talk about not being able to accept anything :D

The two economies in question are of comparable size...so the growth difference is quite relevant

I have one [master's] in finance...that good enough?

Nice to see you need to combine a whole continent just to compete with us

Gah I hate the word 'dude' its so American :D

"Currently (May 2004) the EU, considered as a unit, has the largest economy in the world, with a 2002 GDP of 9.613·10¹² euro. The United States, by comparison, has the largest GDP of a single country - 10.450·10¹² dollars (or 8.782·10¹² euro at the current exchange rate of $1.19 per euro). The European Union continues to enjoy a significant trade surplus, as opposed to the widening trade deficit being experienced by the US. However, as of 2004 the European Union has generally been suffering stagnant economic growth and low employment (averaged across the Union).

The EU economy is expected to grow further over the next decade as more countries join the union - especially considering that the new States are usually poorer than the EU average, and hence the expected fast GDP growth will help achieve the dynamic of the united Europe. However, GDP per capita of the whole Union will fall over the short-term. In the long-term, the EU's economy suffers from significant demographic challenges, with a below-replacement birth rate."

The US isn't far behind in that rapid short-term growth. Even though it isn't a political federation, the FTAA will create a huge trade zone. However, I wish that it'll be a political federation one day.

Nice to see you need to combine a whole continent just to compete with us
Nice to see Al Qaeda gearing up for some stuff recently. Perhaps Sheikh Bin Laden can teach you to change your foreign policy.... Perhaps....

I will concede that I do not know much about Canadian politics and what party is in power. Yes I am a typical American in that sense. However, being from Florida I probaly know more about Puerto Rican, Mexican, Cuban and any other caribbean politics than most Canadians would. If the temp drops below 70F...it is too cold for me. I have had enough cold weather for my liking. Our Canadian and European friends are welcome to all the cold weather.

Hehe, that's kewl, believe me in Jan/Feb I would love to be in Florida instead.. no argument from me there.. ;)

Parts of London are pretty bad too. Plus Birmingham is really bad.
Oh I could imagine Birmingham. It's an industrial town, and I'm sure crime is rife there. But I didn't know that parts of London are bad. Then again, they have pretty big slums there.

Nice to see Al Qaeda gearing up for some stuff recently.

Thats ok, they will hit Europe as well...but thats ok, the Europeans will just give up anyway. Be sure to remove your shoes as you enter the mosque. ;)

the FTAA will create a huge trade zone. However, I wish that it'll be a political federation one day.

Oh, your not very well liked among other American nations, your foreign policy is the prime reason for this of course. Therefore I seriously doubt you could ever strike up a political agreement with other nations in the Americas. They just don't like your politics.

Thats ok, they will hit Europe as well...but thats ok, the Europeans will just give up anyway. Be sure to remove your shoes as you enter the mosque. ;)

That implies you consider the contruction of Mosques a bad thing?

Let me tell you something you narrow minded American shit. Some of the nicest people I have ever met have been Arabic Muslims - they are nothing like what they are portrayed on your 'free media'. And I, along with most Europeans, don't have ANY problem with Arabs building Mosques - some of them are spectacularly beautiful buildings.

Oh, your not very well liked among other American nations, your foreign policy is the prime reason for this of course. Therefore I seriously doubt you could ever strike up a political agreement with other nations in the Americas. They just don't like your politics.

Wow, you really think you know a lot about the Americas don't you.... :rolleyes:

Wow, you really think you know a lot about the Americas don't you.... :rolleyes:

Pick a nation, any nation! (And 99.99% sure they won't like the US - Not after Reagan's War on Central America - but luckily the bigot is dead, hahahahahahaha).

That implies you consider the contruction of Mosques a bad thing?

Let me tell you something you narrow minded American shit. Some of the nicest people I have ever met have been Arabic Muslims - they are nothing like what they are portrayed on your 'free media'. And I, along with most Europeans, don't have ANY problem with Arabs building Mosques - some of them are spectacularly beautiful buildings.

Yes, and Bin Laden, when he defeats the European nations will still ALLOW you to be any other religion than Muslim? Sure....;) So remove your shoes...cause you will no longer have a choice.

Pick a nation, any nation! (And 99.99% sure they won't like the US - Not after Reagan's War on Central America - but luckily the bigot is dead, hahahahahahaha).

Again, you don't know much about the Americas and it shows. What are you, 16? You have obviously never been here, yet you "claim" to have such knowledge.

That implies you consider the contruction of Mosques a bad thing?

Let me tell you something you narrow minded American shit. Some of the nicest people I have ever met have been Arabic Muslims - they are nothing like what they are portrayed on your 'free media'. And I, along with most Europeans, don't have ANY problem with Arabs building Mosques - some of them are spectacularly beautiful buildings.

Wow Biff I think you hit a sore spot. ;)

But hey, we live here. He doesn't and yet he knows more about this country then we do! :rolleyes:

Wonder how many days he stays in the basement?

Pick a nation, any nation! (And 99.99% sure they won't like the US - Not after Reagan's War on Central America - but luckily the bigot is dead, hahahahahahaha).

-Laughs-

Ok I get around. Please tell me where I can find this.

Wow Biff I think you hit a sore spot. ;)

But hey, we live here. He doesn't and yet he knows more about this country then we do! :rolleyes:

Wonder how many days he stays in the basement?

Yeah, when they resort to name calling, they have lost. I am always amazed at how many of our European friends claim they "know" the US yet have never been here. They read their newspapers and watch their TV and believe everything they are spoonfed about us. My girlfriend is Japanese and when she first came to the US she was afraid because she had seen so many movies and thought there were running gun battles in the streets and cars blowing up. ;)

Yeah, when they resort to name calling, they have lost. I am always amazed at how many of our European friends claim they "know" the US yet have never been here. They read their newspapers and watch their TV and believe everything they are spoonfed about us. My girlfriend is Japanese and when she first came to the US she was afraid because she had seen so many movies and thought there were running gun battles in the streets and cars blowing up. ;)

Can you say '35 Million below the Poverty line?'

Can you say 'Islamaphobia?'

Can you say 'Allowing of racists to broadcast hate?' (Rush Limbaugh)

Can you say 'Concentration of Wealth?'

Can you say 'Arrogance?'

Can you say 'Indoctrination?'

Can you say 'Hyperpatriotism?'

Can you say 'Foreign Policy?'

Can you say 'The Most Hated Nation on Earth?'

Can you say '35 Million below the Poverty line?'

Can you say 'Islamaphobia?'

Can you say 'Allowing of racists to broadcast hate?' (Rush Limbaugh)

Can you say 'Concentration of Wealth?'

Can you say 'Arrogance?'

Can you say 'Indoctrination?'

Can you say 'Hyperpatriotism?'

Can you say 'Foreign Policy?'

Can you say 'The Most Hated Nation on Earth?'



Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'

Can you say 'Pay attention to me!'


:)

Thank you for admitting defeat :D Thank you for also contradicting yourself and spamming the boards. :D :D :D

Btw, Weren't you glad when you heard Reagan got Alzheimer's, I personally think it was God's way of making him suffer as he made others suffer during his Presidency - Mostly the Nicaraguan people.

Gah I hate the word 'dude' its so American :D

"Currently (May 2004) the EU, considered as a unit, has the largest economy in the world, with a 2002 GDP of 9.613·10¹² euro. The United States, by comparison, has the largest GDP of a single country - 10.450·10¹² dollars (or 8.782·10¹² euro at the current exchange rate of $1.19 per euro).

Interesting but extremely questionable (Wikipedia) source. But alas your source's sources are inconsistent.

The figure of 8.782E12 (trillion e) comes from the 2002 CIA World Fact Book while the 9.613E12 comes from the other source, the European Union Online. You can't compare two numbers from two sources that don't agree!

If we ask the European Union Online what the US GDP is, the answer is 11.084E12. Thus the European Union Online (an official EU site) says the US has a greater GDP. I don't know what the 2002 CIA World Fact Book says about the EU's GDP because it lists all the individual countries and I won't be bothered to add them up, but I can guarantee you the CIA World Fact Book agrees with the European Union Online: The USA has a greater GDP than the EU combined.

Meanwhile a bunch of idiots wrote up your Wikipedia article comparing two numbers that from two sources that disagree.

The European Union continues to enjoy a significant trade surplus, as opposed to the widening trade deficit being experienced by the US. However, as of 2004 the European Union has generally been suffering stagnant economic growth and low employment (averaged across the Union).

The EU economy is expected to grow further over the next decade as more countries join the union - especially considering that the new States are usually poorer than the EU average, and hence the expected fast GDP growth will help achieve the dynamic of the united Europe. However, GDP per capita of the whole Union will fall over the short-term. In the long-term, the EU's economy suffers from significant demographic challenges, with a below-replacement birth rate."
(emphasis added)

I have participated in GDP comparison debates in NS before and I'm a tool for doing it cause its closest analogy is a really stupid penis length contest. Except even penis length contests are better than this. But you Europeans are always spitting out (inaccurate) numbers to make yourself feel superior to others, and every time your blaring stupidity attracts me like a moth to a light.

Anyways the US and Europe are both fine places and there are bad things and good things about each. Can't we agree on that?

The reason behind anti-Americanism is simple: jealousy. Hatred towards the US is born out of an anger at America for being the most powerful nation on earth, having the strongest economy and an overwhelmingly influencing culture. The fact that we do things differently from the Europeans pisses many of them off to no end (as seen in this thread).

By the way, I find it interesting that a nation with Nazi in it's name is screaming about tolerance.

Yep, The US is a fine place to live unless you aren't rich - then your simply screwed due to lack of care from the Government.

Proud to be a socialist!

And have you ever thought that calling Europeans 'Commie Socialist Pinkos' as so many of your fellow countrymen do, is one of the reasons why we hate you? Have you been pumped up on the propoganda drug so much that you can't accept that some of us may actually feel the need help the genuinely disadvantaged through schemes such as social security, The NHS and others? You are just arrogant - you insult us Euros all the time and then you start bawling your eyes out when we hit back. Get a grip.

The reason behind anti-Americanism is simple: jealousy.

In some cases such as second and third world nations you may very well be correct, however I believe among 1st world nations it has far more to do with American foreign policy then any type of jealousy. I don't hate America by no means, but I do hate your current leader and this new bold and imo foolish foreign policy.. I live in Canada and we actually have a higher standard of living then Americans, so I don't think you can just point to jealousy.

you insult us Euros all the time and then you start bawling your eyes out when we hit back. Get a grip.

Why would we insult money and when did money start hitting back?

:)

The reason behind anti-Americanism is simple: jealousy. Hatred towards the US is born out of an anger at America for being the most powerful nation on earth, having the strongest economy and an overwhelmingly influencing culture. The fact that we do things differently from the Europeans pisses many of them off to no end (as seen in this thread).

By the way, I find it interesting that a nation with Nazi in it's name is screaming about tolerance.

Is that all you can muster? Dated Rhetoric about 'jealousy' and 'hatred of freedom'? And it has been concluded that the EU has a larger economy, thats not in dispute as it is 'basic economic fact' (according to my brother - who has a masters degree in economics). As for your culture... What you mean eating alot and getting fat? You actually have NO culture, none whatsoever - Europe is a haven of culture from the French to the Italians to the Greeks.

Funny I don't remember posting anything calling Europeans Commie Socialist Pinkos or accusing you of not wanting to help the disadvantaged. The NHS/Social Welfare is a topic for a different discussion. This is about you (and many others) blindly attacking America out of jealousy.

As for your culture... What you mean eating alot and getting fat? You actually have NO culture, none whatsoever - Europe is a haven of culture from the French to the Italians to the Greeks.

Well that shows you have never been here.

Someday when you visit when can talk again.

Is that all you can muster? Dated Rhetoric about 'jealousy' and 'hatred of freedom'? And it has been concluded that the EU has a larger economy, thats not in dispute as it is 'basic economic fact' (according to my brother - who has a masters degree in economics). As for your culture... What you mean eating alot and getting fat? You actually have NO culture, none whatsoever - Europe is a haven of culture from the French to the Italians to the Greeks.

Wow...16 year olds are the same everywhere. :rolleyes:

Is that all you can muster? Dated Rhetoric about 'jealousy' and 'hatred of freedom'? And it has been concluded that the EU has a larger economy, thats not in dispute as it is 'basic economic fact' (according to my brother - who has a masters degree in economics).
Shut up already about the "according to my brother" hearsay. Who cares about your fucking brother who has a fucking masters degree in economics? Tell him to shove his gossip up his ass. You haven't provided one source that proves EU has a larger economy that the US.

Shut up already about the "according to my brother" hearsay. Who cares about your fucking brother who has a fucking masters degree in economics? Tell him to shove his gossip up his ass. You haven't provided one source that proves EU has a larger economy that the US.

If he even has a brother.

If what he says is true, is the brother even employed? He might be sitting right next to him as he types. :rolleyes:

Shut up already about the "according to my brother" hearsay. Who cares about your fucking brother who has a fucking masters degree in economics? Tell him to shove his gossip up his ass. You haven't provided one source that proves EU has a larger economy that the US.

I have provided several, and plus you really don't need sources to prove historical fact - its like asking for sources that proved WW2 happened.

I also am in agreement with Sheikh Bin Laden over many of his demands - and I agreed with the attacking of the USS Cole and the suicide attack on the Pentagon as they were military targets. If Al Qaeda had not of attacked The Twin Towers I would have been celebrating 9/11 as a day in which America's military hub was attacked.

If what he says is true, is the brother even employed? He might be sitting right next to him as he types.

DeutscheBank. You?

I have provided several, and plus you really don't need sources to prove historical fact - its like asking for sources that proved WW2 happened.

I also am in agreement with Sheikh Bin Laden over many of his demands - and I agreed with the attacking of the USS Cole and the suicide attack on the Pentagon as they were military targets. If Al Qaeda had not of attacked The Twin Towers I would have been celebrating 9/11 as a day in which America's military hub was attacked.

If what he says is true, is the brother even employed? He might be sitting right next to him as he types.

DeutscheBank. You?

Biffs right about 16 year olds being the same the world over.

Oh I am a WAN Engineer for a multinational.

But hey how would we prove statements anyway.....

Working as an coporate economist is far better than a 'WAN Engineer'.

I have provided several, and plus you really don't need sources to prove historical fact - its like asking for sources that proved WW2 happened.
Firstly I have examined your sources and proved that your European Union webpage link contradicts you, and that your Wikipedia sorce is inaccurate (inaccurate? not Wikipedia!).

Secondly, your WWII analogy is pretty fucked up. Not all facts are equal. "WW2 happened" is a fact that we are exposed countless times in our lives and therefore everyone knows about. The 2002 GDP of the European Union and United States are NOT common pieces of knowledge and thus when you come up with some numbers you have to back it up with sources or no one will believe you. In fact knowledge of the GDP is so uncommon that you found two lousy sources which a.) contradicted you and b.) was flat out wrong. Besides that is "My brother said..." all you can muster?

Working as an coporate economist is far better than a 'WAN Engineer'.

I'm sure comparing your brother's occupation with some anonymous person on an internet forum gave you the self-esteem boost that you sorely needed.

*Sighs* I have explained to you, as before. That the European Union collectively has a larger economy as a whole than the United States of Israel/America - this is a well known and documented economic fact! It requires no detailed explanation, its like asking - "Does Britain have a larger population than Belgium?" But as you insist - I will bring up another source - a report from the SID (Society for International Development.)

"The EU is the largest economy in the world. Due to its sheer size and the multiplicity of its relationships with the rest of the world, its economy and the policies that govern it have often unintentional negative impact on other countries – in particular in the South and countries in transition."

Speaking as a US citizen all I can say is: GET ME OUT OF THIS CRAZY COUNTRY!

History and statistics can be debated for centuries without any conclusion being reached. All I see around me is US flags and people threatening me when I speak up against Bush's quesionable policies and that illegal war in Iraq. This is supposed to be a country where we have freedom of speach, yet that freedom seems to be extend by its citizens only to those who proudly salute the US flag without questioning its leaders or politics (Yes I do vote, so don't try and throw that weak argument at me).

The US enjoys a wonderful position on the UN Security Council but it doesn't adhere to certain regulations which the US itself initiated, such as the Geneva Convention. It seems like we love to tell others how to live but exempt ourselves from those same "humanitarian" regulations. :confused:

I don't know about you people, but Canada is sounding like a much nicer place every day...now if I could only get the US to stop chopping up my paycheck and destroying the economy (thereby reducing my employment options) so I can save up the immigration fee.

I won't question the credibility of the (4-year old) source, but you still haven't considered that the most up-to-date information, which you provided, which comes from the European Union's government, says that the US has the larger economy, statistically.

"The EU is the largest economy in the world. Due to its sheer size and the multiplicity of its relationships with the rest of the world, its economy and the policies that govern it have often unintentional negative impact on other countries – in particular in the South and countries in transition."

Also your passage describes how your Socialist heaven as 'negative impact' Third World wage laborers. You accuse the US of abuse, but remember that all industrialized nations, including Europe, are based partly on the cheap labor of Third World wage slaves. Maybe its time for you to move to Bangladesh?

Just wanted to point out to Antebellum that if you work out the exchange rate on the EU site's measure of the US GDP, that it is still less than the EU figure.

9.6 > 9.3

Also, it should be pointed out that we Canadians see a potential Prime Minister's relationship with the US as a voting factor. A good PM must know how to keep the economic ties to the US that we have, while distancing himself as much as possible from his policy.

It might very well be that GWB lost Stephen Harper(leader of the Conservative party) the election up here. Personally, I feel that a multitude of factors made Harper lose the election, but I wouldn't count out the insanity to the south as a reason to swing to the left.

but you still haven't considered that the most up-to-date information, which you provided, which comes from the European Union's government, says that the US has the larger economy, statistically.


Do you honestly believe that the US has overtaken the EU in the prievous 4 years? Can't you just accept basic fact, or does your GeorgeBush(tm) Patriotiometer prohibit you from doing that?

Anyway - Lets bring up another fact.

European Union* 11.50 trillion 25,300 454,900,000
1. United States 10.40 trillion 37,600 290,343,000
2. Mainland China 5.70 trillion 4,400 1,287,000,000
3. Japan 3.55 trillion 28,000 127,215,000
4. India 2.66 trillion 2,540 1,049,701,000
5. Germany 2.18 trillion 26,600 82,399,000
6. France 1.54 trillion 25,700 60,181,000

Source? CIA World Factbook.

Oh and as for comments about the EU's economy having a negative effect on other third world economies. I, unlike Americans, am not vain enough to believe that my country is inherently good and great and that people like Reagan were a blessing upon the World and all that other crap.

Actually the EU has legislation coming through round about now that will impose regulation on TNC's in what they deem to be LEDC's. Perhaps you should take a look at the TNC's and the lack of regulation in your own country as well as abroad, and its effects upon consumer standards, environmental standards and workers rights. Vain, vain people the Americans - believe thier country stands for all that is good and true.

Now you have lost the argument, accept it :D

STOP BICKERING ABOUT THE ECO!! From the looks of it the US and the EU are about equal. Personaly I prefer europe, I just like the feel of it better, that what this really should be, back up statements and those back-ups being looked at by other people, then if they have another meaning, just use that to your atvantage, and don't let this turn in to a flame war.

Working as an coporate economist is far better than a 'WAN Engineer'.

Well Ace.

How do you think the corporate economist gets access to data? Banks tend to have many offices many computer sites.

Guess how they talk?

Do you honestly believe that the US has overtaken the EU in the prievous 4 years? Can't you just accept basic fact, or does your GeorgeBush(tm) Patriotiometer prohibit you from doing that?

Anyway - Lets bring up another fact.

European Union* 11.50 trillion 25,300 454,900,000
1. United States 10.40 trillion 37,600 290,343,000
2. Mainland China 5.70 trillion 4,400 1,287,000,000
3. Japan 3.55 trillion 28,000 127,215,000
4. India 2.66 trillion 2,540 1,049,701,000
5. Germany 2.18 trillion 26,600 82,399,000
6. France 1.54 trillion 25,700 60,181,000

Source? CIA World Factbook.

Oh and as for comments about the EU's economy having a negative effect on other third world economies. I, unlike Americans, am not vain enough to believe that my country is inherently good and great and that people like Reagan were a blessing upon the World and all that other crap.

Actually the EU has legislation coming through round about now that will impose regulation on TNC's in what they deem to be LEDC's. Perhaps you should take a look at the TNC's and the lack of regulation in your own country as well as abroad, and its effects upon consumer standards, environmental standards and workers rights. Vain, vain people the Americans - believe thier country stands for all that is good and true.

Now you have lost the argument, accept it :D

Umm...why do you care so much? Worry about yourself and your own country - I think Poland is getting uppity again...

I don't get it. Who in their f**king right minds would compare a continient to a country and draw conclusions from it?

If we split this up between Britain Vs. America, France Vs. America, Austra Vs. America, Portugal Vs. America, you wouldn't be so happy with the results.

And...who gives a f**k if we have fat people or not?

In internet terms..

America still f**king pwns Europe

Compared to the rest of the world the two nations (a loose term, since the EU is not really a nation in the traditional view) are ridiculously rich, and the divide in the GDP is negligible compared to the divide with their nearest rivals. So the EU has a slightly better economy (depending on your source), it's not by the amount large enough to suddenly declare Europe is decidedly better than the United States.

As for the US being ignorant of it's own history, compared to some kind of glorious Europe where they are regretful of their history, this is pure fantasy. With the notable exception of the Germans, every nation I've traveled to has been filled with the same kind of ignorant people as America (which has enough, trust me). Everyone knows the Third Reich (well, not everyone I found out), but how many know what the First and Second were, even among Germans this answer was not what I had been led to expect. What is the longest river in Europe, surprising as it may sound the the British (who predominantly responded) it is not the Seine or the Rhine. Tallest capitol in the world, is not Madrid (And they claim Americans are America-central), what is the capitol of Malaya, it's not Singapore (which isn't even the same country anymore), and of course the ever popular capitol of Australia, it's not Sydney.

Now as I said, most Americans I've asked these questions know about the same as Europeans (which is to say, nothing about them).

Oh, and the poll makes less sense.

Now, if it said "North America," now it would make sense. But it doesn;t.

I don't get it. Who in their f**king right minds would compare a continient to a country and draw conclusions from it?

If we split this up between Britain Vs. America, France Vs. America, Austra Vs. America, Portugal Vs. America, you wouldn't be so happy with the results.

And...who gives a f**k if we have fat people or not?

In internet terms..

America still f**king pwns Europe

Actually, then you would probably have to say if the EU is split down into countries then the US should be split down into states, so it would be like New York vs. Germany, Virgina vs. Italy, etc.

Actually, then you would probably have to say if the EU is split down into countries then the US should be split down into states, so it would be like New York vs. Germany, Virgina vs. Italy, etc.
not really, the states are more united than the EU can possibly be.

I don't get it. Who in their f**king right minds would compare a continient to a country and draw conclusions from it?



According to the poll at the start, we're actually comparing two continents. The US isn't the only country on that continent, you know?

Anyway, what's the point in comparing? If you'd prefer to live in America, good for you. Ditto with Europe. Is the point of saying your continent's better to convince everyone else to move there? Won't that just screw your continent up?

There are so many factors coming into play here, it really comes down to personal preference over which things are more important, social or economic.

Actually, then you would probably have to say if the EU is split down into countries then the US should be split down into states, so it would be like New York vs. Germany, Virgina vs. Italy, etc.


Hey I think we can take Italy - especially if we get the Expos to move down here!

How do you feel about some input ignoring GDP and economic factors for the time being?

As a Briton (I don't view myself as part of the EU, I think its daft) the reason I dislike America, but not Americans is your self centered arrogance. That you do things differently to the rest of the world is not the issue, that you do it regardless of the feeling or opinions of the rest of world like your have a god given right to remake this planet as you see fit is an issue. You attempt to claim the moral high ground over all things yet have a growing problem wih free media, by European standards, human rights, see abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Guantanamo and freedom of speech, and free speech, where any deviation from god bless america is a sign of terrorist sympathies and humour can get you arrested.
I have no doubt this will attract its own criticism and I shall be happy to satisfy your replies.

Oh and I'm currently in America and have visited this country every year for the last 6 about a month at a time, so I have some experience of what this place is like.

According to the poll at the start, we're actually comparing two continents. The US isn't the only country on that continent, you know?

Anyway, what's the point in comparing? If you'd prefer to live in America, good for you. Ditto with Europe. Is the point of saying your continent's better to convince everyone else to move there? Won't that just screw your continent up?

There are so many factors coming into play here, it really comes down to personal preference over which things are more important, social or economic.
I addressed (sp?) that poll thing in my other post, where I said it should say "North America" rather than asking which CONTINENT is better, America or Europe?

And....the posts in this topic are my point. Balance it out buddy....

but how many know what the First and Second were
Holy Roman Empire. The German Empire (1871-1918)


What is the longest river in Europe, surprising as it may sound the the British (who predominantly responded) it is not the Seine or the Rhine.
The Volga.

Tallest capitol in the world, is not Madrid
Capitol as in city or as in building? (I don't know this one)

what is the capitol of Malaya, it's not Singapore (which isn't even the same country anymore),
Kuala Lumpur
and of course the ever popular capitol of Australia, it's not Sydney.
Canberra

Tallest cap? Hmm....in Nepal I'd guess...cant think of the name though....

Tallest cap? Hmm....in Nepal I'd guess...cant think of the name though....
Kathmandu.

Kathmandu.

It'z La Paz Bolivia

You were correct in all other answers however, but there are technically two answers to the River question. After someone got it wrong and got mad there was a lengthy debate, apparently some people consider the Volga and not the Urals as seperating European and Asian Russia, for my money it's European, but I've been forced to accept the Danube as an answer as well as the Volga (though someone did try and argue the Tiber River once, which is obviously not the answer, but I had to give them credit for knowing the name and location)

I'm seeing an education problem here. America is not a continent! For crying out loud, North America is a continent and South America is a continent. Apparently, the Europeans don't have a very good education system, lol!

At least we North (and probably South) Americans don't make Muslim girls not wear their little hoods at school.

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?

Who has the largest economy (EU)

Who is the most environmentally friendly (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who has better public services (EU)

Who has less proportional poverty (EU)

Who has fatter people (US)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about anyone but the rich (US)

You left out
Who gets spoonfed propaganda on a daily basis (both, but moreso EU)
Just thought Id throw that in.

Come on people your arguing with soome one with the word Nazi in their name if that doesn't show they have no sence what will come on??

Also mien furher the EU Conisits of 25 nations to the 1 nation your talking about.

Also what started this thread why did you feel the need to complain about A country you dont live in?

This is one of the lamest attempts on flaming America I have ever seen.

Do you honestly believe that the US has overtaken the EU in the prievous 4 years? Can't you just accept basic fact, or does your GeorgeBush(tm) Patriotiometer prohibit you from doing that?

Anyway - Lets bring up another fact.

European Union* 11.50 trillion 25,300 454,900,000
1. United States 10.40 trillion 37,600 290,343,000
2. Mainland China 5.70 trillion 4,400 1,287,000,000
3. Japan 3.55 trillion 28,000 127,215,000
4. India 2.66 trillion 2,540 1,049,701,000
5. Germany 2.18 trillion 26,600 82,399,000
6. France 1.54 trillion 25,700 60,181,000

Source? CIA World Factbook.

Source please? That's not in the CIA world factbook. I checked the US GDP numbers... it doesn't match.


Oh and as for comments about the EU's economy having a negative effect on other third world economies. I, unlike Americans, am not vain enough to believe that my country is inherently good and great and that people like Reagan were a blessing upon the World and all that other crap.

Actually the EU has legislation coming through round about now that will impose regulation on TNC's in what they deem to be LEDC's. Perhaps you should take a look at the TNC's and the lack of regulation in your own country as well as abroad, and its effects upon consumer standards, environmental standards and workers rights. Vain, vain people the Americans - believe thier country stands for all that is good and true.

Now you have lost the argument, accept it :D

1. Citing a relative is not a reliable source for debates.

2. Read your own sources. Your own socialist European Union source contradicts your claims

3. You are a faggot with a small penis.

Source please? That's not in the CIA world factbook. I checked the US GDP numbers... it doesn't match.



1. Citing a relative is not a reliable source for debates.

2. Read your own sources. Your own socialist European Union source contradicts your claims

3. You are a faggot with a small penis.

Flaming *yawns*

Reported to the mods.

I have to wonder where you got this hatred for the US. Get dumped by an American girl?

I'm amused by how you whip out these ignorant ideas and people shoot them down, so you just whip out a few more that are even more ignorant.

Post like this always wind up being a metaphorical dick waving contest, but in your case, you have a tiny little nubbin of a weenie. Put it back in your pants, you're embarassing yourself.

Seems like your propaganda does not stop the US winning. And, if you want to tell the truth, the poll should be Which continent is the best, Europe or North America.

Seems like your propaganda does not stop the US winning. And, if you want to tell the truth, the poll should be Which continent is the best, Europe or North America.

That would be unfair - how could the US possibly compete with such powerhouses as Latvia and Belarus? Yes, the countries we didn't rebuild and save from the Soviets...

uh-oh ... watch out, The EuroPEON Union is going to take over the world

okay ... ready? 1... 2... 3... BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

please, you are kidding, right?

Well, it looks like this is going to be one of those America-bashing debates. I like Europe and America working together. Only together we can make the world a better place. We can´t do that alone, without each other or even against each other. Europe and America contribute more than 50% to world trade and almost as much to the world economic output.
That is a tremendous power which combined can be used to make the world a better place.


Regarding the poll: Since I´m from Europe I have of course to chose Europe. Though no offense intended to America.

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?

Who has the largest economy (EU)

Who is the most environmentally friendly (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who has better public services (EU)

Who has less proportional poverty (EU)

Who has fatter people (US)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about anyone but the rich (US)


Gawd Bless Europe and Feck the US.

Gawd Bless Europe and Feck the US.
Since when have you become religious, though????
And take care of your spelling.
Although you are talking crap you should at least spell it right.

Go Europe!
Who has cooler architecture? (EU)

Gawd Bless Europe and Feck the US.

Deep down inside, you wish with all your heart and soul you could be an American living in America, but you can't, so you're pissed.

it's true ...

Go Europe!
Who has cooler architecture? (EU)

Agree with you there...Sometimes I really wish Eisenhower didn't build highways all over the place...I really like the way European towns are packed together and one can walk everywhere.

suburbs are miserable, but it is so expensive to live in the city...plus we have to drive instead of walk, making us bulge in the mid-section. Lucky for me I live in a small but fairly densely populated town.

I can't wait for gas to become scarce, forcing people to move things closer together.

This is hardly an objective poll. I don't think I could be very objective since I've never been to Europe.

I can't wait for gas to become scarce, forcing people to move things closer together.

pfft yeah right, we'd just use something else to fuel cars with.

This is hardly an objective poll. I don't think I could be very objective since I've never been to Europe.
So? neither have I but I voted for europe. :D

Deep down inside, you wish with all your heart and soul you could be an American living in America, but you can't, so you're pissed.

it's true ...
Deep down inside, I am glad I am European and wish all Americans would be warped away from Earth to Mars or somewhere else by the almighty Gawd. With all my heart and soul I wish America would fade away, the few good people living in America could live in Canada or the EU, but they can't, so I'm pissed.

Deep down inside, I am glad I am European and wish all Americans would be warped away from Earth to Mars or somewhere else by the almighty Gawd. With all my heart and soul I wish America would fade away, the few good people living in America could live in Canada or the EU, but they can't, so I'm pissed.
*high tails it to canada before teh almighty Gawd strikes down upon the US with great vengance and furious anger*

Deep down inside, you wish with all your heart and soul you could be an American living in America, but you can't, so you're pissed.

it's true ...
I don´t think he would. You wouldn´t give him so much social security as we do.
Strong and independent people who are looking for challenges are going to the US but not those who have a great need for security. They rather remain in well-ordered Western or Central Europe.

pfft yeah right, we'd just use something else to fuel cars with.

Which is a shame

But I do think that as prices continue to rise, people will think twice about living 40 miles away...

Hey who cares as long as we get the Expos!

I don´t think he would. You wouldn´t give him so much social security as we do.
Strong and independent people who are looking for challenges are going to the US but not those who have a great need for security. They rather remain in well-ordered Western or Central Europe.
I wouldnt go to the US due to their ideology. The "american dream" sucks fat ass and their rampant capitalism and corporate carebear land is the horror of any sane human being. If I'd want to be force-fed Mc Donalds and expand my bodymass by 1000% then perhaps yes, I'd go to the US.. if I wanted to torture Iraqi prisoners, then yes, I'd go there too. If I wanted a dumbass who is hated all over the world as president, yes, I'd go to the US. Alas I like it here in the EU and in Germany. I like being German and contributing to my own country instead of a corrupt empire that is spreading its foul ideals all over the world.

Why, I wonder dear Kybernetia, arent you in the US yet? You might be considered a terrorist though, considering that you arent native American and probably not fat like a walrus yet.

Who builds better cars?
Methinks the EU.Or at least the countries in the EU.
Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porshe, BMW, Mercedes etc. Can't name any US cars which are good. Mustang maybe?

Hey Hey, I just broke the tie!
Go EU

Ps. Im an American

You left out
Who gets spoonfed propaganda on a daily basis (both, but moreso EU)
Just thought Id throw that in.

Balls, BBC verses NBC, CNN etc?

I wouldnt go to the US due to their ideology. The "american dream" sucks fat ass and their rampant capitalism and corporate carebear land is the horror of any sane human being. If I'd want to be force-fed Mc Donalds and expand my bodymass by 1000% then perhaps yes, I'd go to the US.. if I wanted to torture Iraqi prisoners, then yes, I'd go there too. If I wanted a dumbass who is hated all over the world as president, yes, I'd go to the US. Alas I like it here in the EU and in Germany. I like being German and contributing to my own country instead of a corrupt empire that is spreading its foul ideals all over the world.

Why, I wonder dear Kybernetia, arent you in the US yet? You might be considered a terrorist though, considering that you arent native American and probably not fat like a walrus yet.


Wow...you must be lots o fun to be around...

I really don't think Germans can be critical about anyone:
Fat? Go back to eating your bratwurst and guzzling beer
Torture? Haha...let's not get started down that road...
Hated all over the world? Don't think so. You ever had a leader like that?
Spreading foul ideas? Yes, Germany...the pacifist country that just keeps to itself...

Don't knock it if you have not been here

Balls, BBC verses NBC, CNN etc?

Yeah, I think it's pretty much a draw on the whole propaganda thing across the board. Some just don't think there is a lot of it in the US because the media packages it better here.

Who builds better cars?
Methinks the EU.Or at least the countries in the EU.
Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porshe, BMW, Mercedes etc. Can't name any US cars which are good. Mustang maybe?


Once again lumping several countries together in order to compete

Aston Martin is owned by Ford

Corvette, Viper, Cobra

Wow...you must be lots o fun to be around...

I really don't think Germans can be critical about anyone:
Fat? Go back to eating your bratwurst and guzzling beer
Torture? Haha...let's not get started down that road...
Hated all over the world? Don't think so. You ever had a leader like that?
Spreading foul ideas? Yes, Germany...the pacifist country that just keeps to itself...

Don't knock it if you have done deen here
At least history has been a teacher for us. We dont go around the world waging wars anymore. It onyl causes pain. The US on the other hand bomb and pillage all over the planet, killing thousands and thousands of people in typical nazi fashion. You'd make Adolf proud. On a sidenote, I dont eat bratwurst nor do i drink beer. I prefer Italian pizza :)

Bush is hated all over the world. If he werent protected like a foul egg (which he is), I am sure many many people (including me) would like to plant a bullet between his eyes.

The US are the land of the torturers. I guess I dont have to elaborate more on that, the daily news show quite clearly how rotten and foul your country is.

Last but not least, I'll be critical about whoever I want. If it means the US will invade Germany and bomb civilians here to hell and back like it did numerous times all over the world, then it strengthens my point.

Who builds better cars?
Methinks the EU.Or at least the countries in the EU.
Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porshe, BMW, Mercedes etc. Can't name any US cars which are good. Mustang maybe?

Well, according to J.D. Powers, the 2004 Customer Service Index Study ranks several US and Japanese makers ahead of the European makers. Even my $14,000 Saturn ranks higher than the European made cars. As for Mustangs, they are made by Ford....as is Jaguar, Saab and Volvo.

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=866&CatID=1

All of the studies can be found here....

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/search.asp?CatID=1

Aston Martin is owned by Ford


Only because of evil global market capitalism.

Well, according to J.D. Powers, the 2004 Customer Service Index Study ranks several US and Japanese makers ahead of the European makers. Even my $14,000 Saturn ranks higher than the European made cars. As for Mustangs, they are made by Ford....as is Jaguar, Saab and Volvo.

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=866&CatID=1
Ooooh an american poll promoting american customer service... wow what a surprise. roflmao.

Ooooh an american poll promoting american customer service... wow what a surprise. roflmao.

The GERMAN study....

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=861&CatID=1

BMW ranks number 5....behind Japanese models....even Skoda ranks higher than Mercedes and Kia and Renault rank higher than VW!! THAT shocks me because Kia sucks and Renault....well, lets just say they don't sell those rattletraps here anymore.

At least history has been a teacher for us. We dont go around the world waging wars anymore. It onyl causes pain. The US on the other hand bomb and pillage all over the planet, killing thousands and thousands of people in typical nazi fashion. You'd make Adolf proud. On a sidenote, I dont eat bratwurst nor do i drink beer. I prefer Italian pizza :)

Bush is hated all over the world. If he werent protected like a foul egg (which he is), I am sure many many people (including me) would like to plant a bullet between his eyes.

The US are the land of the torturers. I guess I dont have to elaborate more on that, the daily news show quite clearly how rotten and foul your country is.

Last but not least, I'll be critical about whoever I want. If it means the US will invade Germany and bomb civilians here to hell and back like it did numerous times all over the world, then it strengthens my point.

You are generalizing [about torture]
Typical Nazi fashion? Are you insane? If you were over here, you would notice that the Iraqi ex-pats are pretty damn happy about what we did.

You should drink. Beer is good.

Only because of evil global market capitalism.

Riiight...

At least history has been a teacher for us. We dont go around the world waging wars anymore. It onyl causes pain.

Yeah, after two strikes I guess a lesson was learned. Then again, the US would not be where it is today if not for severe nationalism from Europe, so what you sowed...you have reaped. We were created by Europe.

Riiight...

Okay, you got me, it just isn't evil global market capitalism it's just global market capitalism. And on a side note, the companies that ford owns mostly operate independently. Think of the companies like Volvo, Jaguar and Aston Martin as Triad Laundromats and Ford as the Triad Mob Boss.

Actually, then you would probably have to say if the EU is split down into countries then the US should be split down into states, so it would be like New York vs. Germany, Virgina vs. Italy, etc.

Cool! I'll put California up against any of the Euro-trash states!!!

The reason behind anti-Americanism is simple: jealousy. Hatred towards the US is born out of an anger at America for being the most powerful nation on earth, having the strongest economy and an overwhelmingly influencing culture. The fact that we do things differently from the Europeans pisses many of them off to no end (as seen in this thread).

By the way, I find it interesting that a nation with Nazi in it's name is screaming about tolerance.

*Applause*

The GERMAN study....

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=861&CatID=1

BMW ranks number 5....behind Japanese models....even Skoda ranks higher than Mercedes and Kia and Renault rank higher than VW!! THAT shocks me because Kia sucks and Renault....well, lets just say they don't sell those rattletraps here anymore.
DON´T CRITIZE BMW: They make fantastic cars, really. They are all customized. So: if you want quality and have the money BMW is an excellent offer.
Though, it is not German, it is Bavarian.
(Bavarian motor factory (Bayerische Motoren-Werke (BMW))

So? neither have I but I voted for europe. :D

Well, I guess there's no accounting for self-loathing.

The GERMAN study....

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=861&CatID=1

BMW ranks number 5....behind Japanese models....even Skoda ranks higher than Mercedes and Kia and Renault rank higher than VW!! THAT shocks me because Kia sucks and Renault....well, lets just say they don't sell those rattletraps here anymore.
I can imagine that Japanese car manufacturers have good customer service. The Japanese are known for being good service providers, not just for car owners. Alas, I dont see any US company on that list at all, which doesnt surprise me. US cars usually require way too much fuel and are too expensive.

DON´T CRITIZE BMW: They make fantastic cars, really. They are all customized. So: if you want quality and have the money BMW is an excellent offer.
Though, it is not German, it is Bavarian.
(Bavarian motor factory (Bayerische Motoren-Werke (BMW))

I didn't...the study was done in Germany. Isn't Bavaria in Germany and thus German?

Yeah, after two strikes I guess a lesson was learned. Then again, the US would not be where it is today if not for severe nationalism from Europe, so what you sowed...you have reaped. We were created by Europe.
... and your creator will make sure you behave or you will be destroyed.

I can imagine that Japanese car manufacturers have good customer service. The Japanese are known for being good service providers, not just for car owners. Alas, I dont see any US company on that list at all, which doesnt surprise me. US cars usually require way too much fuel and are too expensive.

Well, I COULD show you how German cars did in the US but you would not like that either....as for American cars on the German study, I doubt there are many American cars sold in Germany.

I didn't...the study was done in Germany. Isn't Bavaria in Germany and thus German?
Its a joke, they are indeed. But they are "special" and see themselves as Bavarians. Well: like probably the people in California or Texas who see themselves primarily as Californians or Texans.

i just voted, and i would just like to say the.......THE EU RULES!!!!!! US SUCKS!!!!!

Its a joke, they are indeed. But they are "special" and see themselves as Bavarians. Well: like probably the people in California or Texas who see themselves primarily as Californians or Texans.

Gotcha...

Well, I COULD show you how German cars did in the US but you would not like that either....as for American cars on the German study, I doubt there are many American cars sold in Germany.
Yep, because they suck ass and other than dumb americans who are expected to be patriots and buy their own cars although they suck, there's nobody else who could buy German cars in the US. Only the "rich" can afford a German car in the US, so I wouldnt say the base for a poll on that is too small, seeing how many high-class car manufacturers there are.

Well, I COULD show you how German cars did in the US but you would not like that either....as for American cars on the German study, I doubt there are many American cars sold in Germany.
No, they aren`t. But there are Japanese cars quite a lot. I myself drive a small Italian car (Fiat). My mother used to drive VW, though changed to Opel, which is German (Rüsselsheim), though a daughter of the American company General Motors (GM). The economic links are pretty close. DaimlerChrysler is also having problems. Thus far as I know that is more due to the American section of it.

Yeah, after two strikes I guess a lesson was learned. Then again, the US would not be where it is today if not for severe nationalism from Europe, so what you sowed...you have reaped. We were created by Europe.
Yes, you were. That is indeed a historic fact. You are our younger cousins.
Though I hope you study European history closely to avoid the mistakes we did in the past, which were indeed terrible and incredible.

Yep, because they suck ass and other than dumb americans who are expected to be patriots and buy their own cars although they suck, there's nobody else who could buy German cars in the US. Only the "rich" can afford a German car in the US, so I wouldnt say the base for a poll on that is too small, seeing how many high-class car manufacturers there are.

You might be surprised....one of my business partners drives a Mercedes...the other a Porshe. I drive an inexpensive Saturn. Their cars spend a lot of time in the shop and I have to pick them up there at least once a month. I tell them they are wasting a lot of money driving such cars, but they don't listen. Bottom line...you do not have to be rich to drive a German made car...but it helps because of the constant repair bills. Oh, and the Mercedes is a 2004 model and the Porshe is a 1998, so they are not "old" cars.

Yes, you were. That is indeed a historic facts. You are our younger cousins.
Though I hope you study European history closely to avoid the mistakes we did in the past, which were indeed terrible and incredible.

I think we got it. I am surprised at how easily Europe is rolling over when threatened by terrorists. Some group takes ONE guy hostage and tells a whole nation to change their foreign policy and they actually do it....simply amazing to me. Reminds me of Chamberlin returning from Berlin with that piece of paper in his hand.... "Peace in our time!" LOL

I think we got it. I am surprised at how easily Europe is rolling over when threatened by terrorists. Some group takes ONE guy hostage and tells a whole nation to change their foreign policy and they actually do it....simply amazing to me. Reminds me of Chamberlin returning from Berlin with that piece of paper in his hand.... "Peace in our time!" LOL
Well: I think it had rather to do with the stupid Spanish conservatives trying to lie to the people and direct the blame to ETA: People don´t like that.
Though I don`t like the Spanish socialists they have declared that they would do that in their election campaign before the attacks. Should they allow the terrorists to change their program????
Spain is and remains engaged in Afghanistan and even increases its presence there. But the Iraq thing was not only badly planned but also badly diplamaticly prepared. But this is - I´m sorry to say - the result of a foreign policy which is based on a "coalition of the willing" rather than NATO, a result of a policy which states: We can do everything alone. The risk is that you may end up alone with Britain.
Internationalisation of Iraq doesn´t only mean to ask other countries to sent troops in but also to allow them a say and to participate in the reconstruction contracts. Thus far the US policy in that respect was indeed very controversial, to say the least.

Well: I think it had rather to do with the stupid Spanish conservatives trying to lie to the people and direct the blame to ETA: People don´t like that.
Though I don`t like the Spanish socialists they have declared that they would do that in their election campaign before the attacks. Should they allow the terrorists to change their program????
Spain is and remains engaged in Afghanistan and even increases its presence there. But the Iraq thing was not only badly planned but also badly diplamaticly prepared. But this is - I´m sorry to say - the result of a foreign policy which is based on a "coalition of the willing" rather than NATO, a result of a policy which states: We can do everything alone. The risk is that you may end up alone with Britain.
Internationalisation of Iraq doesn´t only mean to ask other countries to sent troops in but also to allow them a say and to participate in the reconstruction contracts. Thus far the US policy in that respect was indeed very controversial, to say the least.

Yeah, blaming it on ETA was a pretty stupid thing to do. As for Iraq, we could do it alone if necessary. If we do that, then other nations should stay out of it and we will clean it up and set iraq on a new course. We do have a history of doing that and we also leave...unlike the Russians. ;)

Ya know.. were comparing Europe And America, continents.. so first of all.. which America.. North, or South? And once you do that, you cant pick on just one nation, you have to combine all the nations of that continent... Not just chose the US like so many do.. the us isnt America, its just one of the American nations..



Btw, Weren't you glad when you heard Reagan got Alzheimer's, I personally think it was God's way of making him suffer as he made others suffer during his Presidency - Mostly the Nicaraguan people.

Hmm.. Glad? No.. To be glad someone got hurt or sick is wrong, its part of the problems with our times, always willing to put someone down to make yourself feel better.. yes he might have had some wrong policies, but he is still human, and as such noone should be glad he suffers.. or when anyone suffers.



Yep, The US is a fine place to live unless you aren't rich - then your simply screwed due to lack of care from the Government.

Proud to be a socialist!

And have you ever thought that calling Europeans 'Commie Socialist Pinkos' as so many of your fellow countrymen do, is one of the reasons why we hate you? Have you been pumped up on the propoganda drug so much that you can't accept that some of us may actually feel the need help the genuinely disadvantaged through schemes such as social security, The NHS and others? .

The US is a very nice place to live for most people, poor or rich. Oh i admit its far from perfect.. As for care from the government, it tries its best, but its too busy listening to cries for help from other nations to pay attention to its own(which annoys me) personally i wish it would go back to isolationist and watch the world..

As far as.. european governments caring more, i have a girlfriend in england, abused by her parents.. as are many of her friends. Ive talked to her about going to the government for help, her and her friends all told me the same thing. "whenever we go all that happens is the government reports to our parents word for word what we said, then we get beat on again for going to them" Soo... (and before you say she probly deserved it, i dont think broken bones count as being deserved) Oh.. ill admit it happens in the states too(but we actually tend ot overprotect, taking away for no reason), but your system is just as flawed

As for your culture... What you mean eating alot and getting fat? You actually have NO culture, none whatsoever - Europe is a haven of culture from the French to the Italians to the Greeks.
And how exactly is a culture defined?? Several things though.. Youve had melinnia to build your culture, weve had.. 200 years.. Just because its not as refined doesent mean its horrible. Your governments have come about because youve learned what works for you and what doesent.. thats how almost all governments evolve.. weve had less time at it, and different lessons than you to reach where we are.


Speaking as a US citizen all I can say is: GET ME OUT OF THIS CRAZY COUNTRY!

History and statistics can be debated for centuries without any conclusion being reached. All I see around me is US flags and people threatening me when I speak up against Bush's quesionable policies and that illegal war in Iraq. This is supposed to be a country where we have freedom of speach, yet that freedom seems to be extend by its citizens only to those who proudly salute the US flag without questioning its leaders or politics (Yes I do vote, so don't try and throw that weak argument at me).

The US enjoys a wonderful position on the UN Security Council but it doesn't adhere to certain regulations which the US itself initiated, such as the Geneva Convention. It seems like we love to tell others how to live but exempt ourselves from those same "humanitarian" regulations. :confused:

I don't know about you people, but Canada is sounding like a much nicer place every day...now if I could only get the US to stop chopping up my paycheck and destroying the economy (thereby reducing my employment options) so I can save up the immigration fee.

now for the blow who think im a loyal US citizen.. lol.. ok, so i am, mostly.. what on earth are you talking about when you say immegration fee??? In all my checking about canadian citizenship i have never heard mention of a fee.. all ive ever found out about is a silly point system that says if you qualify for it or not baced apon how rich/what you know..

I wouldnt go to the US due to their ideology. The "american dream" sucks fat ass and their rampant capitalism and corporate carebear land is the horror of any sane human being. If I'd want to be force-fed Mc Donalds and expand my bodymass by 1000% then perhaps yes, I'd go to the US.. if I wanted to torture Iraqi prisoners, then yes, I'd go there too. If I wanted a dumbass who is hated all over the world as president, yes, I'd go to the US. Alas I like it here in the EU and in Germany. I like being German and contributing to my own country instead of a corrupt empire that is spreading its foul ideals all over the world.

Why, I wonder dear Kybernetia, arent you in the US yet? You might be considered a terrorist though, considering that you arent native American and probably not fat like a walrus yet.

hmm.. funny.. i havnt stepped foot inside of McDonalds in years.. we arent forced to do a single thing here we dont want to.. As far as people being hated all over the world.. its natural for the smaller to hate the larger.. and when it comes to corrupt governments, they are all corrupt, just because one holds more influence than another at a particular time, means nothing. In time america's will quiet down and another will rear its ugly head to annoy the planet.

Yeah, blaming it on ETA was a pretty stupid thing to do. As for Iraq, we could do it alone if necessary. If we do that, then other nations should stay out of it and we will clean it up and set iraq on a new course. We do have a history of doing that and we also leave...unlike the Russians. ;)
I agree. I have nothing against American unilateralism. But I would object if America would then demand others to just follow them. This or the expectation of that is also creating problems in the transatlantic relations. If you want to do decide alone you have to do it alone as well - or rather with a very instable coalition of the willing. Actually in respect to Iraq you can only rely on the British. To a lesser degree on Poland. All others are insecure allies. That´s a fact and also due to the fact that this decision was taken outside NATO and has split Europe. So: any government change may have an effect on it.
But you have decided to create this coaliton of the willing. So you shouldn´t complain that it is what it is: a pretty instable combination of states around the special alliance of Britain and the US.

Regarding Afghanistan: That is a NATO mission, agreed unanimously on NATO. So you can rely on that.

hmm.. funny.. i havnt stepped foot inside of McDonalds in years.. we arent forced to do a thing here we dont want to.. .
What???? You don´t go to McDonalds????? Incredible. I don´t go to McDonalds that often. But I went to McDonalds last month when I was for a short trip to France and just had time for FAST food.
They were pretty many McDonalds in France. By the way. There are also many in East Germany, where Giga is from. Pretty popular here, though. As well as in China and other places around the world. Though: today there are also many chinese fast food restaurants here. There are good as well. So: I see a lot of diversity to globalisation. It is after all Globalisation and not Americanisation - although some people falsely see it that way.

I agree. I have nothing against American unilateralism. But I would object if America would then demand others to just follow them. This or the expectation of that is also creating problems in the transatlantic relations. If you want to do decide alone you have to do it alone as well - or rather with a very instable coalition of the willing. Actually in respect to Iraq you can only rely on the British. To a lesser degree on Poland. All others are insecure allies. That´s a fact and also due to the fact that this decision was taken outside NATO and has split Europe. So: any government change may have an effect on it.
But you have decided to create this coaliton of the willing. So you shouldn´t complain that it is what it is: a pretty instable combination of states around the special alliance of Britain and the US.

Regarding Afghanistan: That is a NATO mission, agreed unanimously on NATO. So you can rely on that.

Trust me on this one....we are learning who we can and cannot count on when needed. One day some other country will call us for help, and like the retarded kid down the street, we will run into the fire and help out regardless of the ass whipping we took the day before from those calling us. Thats our biggest problem, we always jump in there to help others regardless of the consequences.

Trust me on this one....we are learning who we can and cannot count on when needed. One day some other country will call us for help, and like the retarded kid down the street, we will run into the fire and help out regardless of the ass whipping we took the day before from those calling us. Thats our biggest problem, we always jump in there to help others regardless of the consequences.
I would respond to you: There is no friendship between countries, there are just common interests. Every country acts selfish. Of course. That´s natural. Though that doesn´t need to be bad for another country - it can be but it isn´t automaticaly. It also can be positive. But countries never act if they don´t believe that it is in their own interests and benefit. Therefore I would rather like not so much moralisation on foreign policy. Foreign policy is always interst policy and "Realpolitik".

I would respond to you: There is no friendship between countries, there are just common interests. Every country acts selfish. Of course. That´s natural. Though that doesn´t need to be bad for another country - it can be but it isn´t automaticaly. It also can be positive. But countries never act if they don´t believe that it is in their own interests and benefit. Therefore I would rather like not so much moralisation on foreign policy. Foreign policy is always interst policy and "Realpolitik".

Thats true...but we do seem to help out a lot of people...not always with military personnel, mostly with money. We are now spending 15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa....and completely preventable disease...and I as a taxpayer am sending money over there to help fight a disease that need not be contracted in the first place. Even the UN has written Africa off to AIDS as it is out of control...so sending money there is not going to change a thing, it will just make some dictator richer.

Thats true...but we do seem to help out a lot of people...not always with military personnel, mostly with money. We are now spending 15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa.....
And who gets that money? The ones that think preaching abstinence is sexuel education.

Trust me on this one....we are learning who we can and cannot count on when needed. One day some other country will call us for help, and like the retarded kid down the street, we will run into the fire and help out regardless of the ass whipping we took the day before from those calling us. Thats our biggest problem, we always jump in there to help others regardless of the consequences.
Just tell yourself that.
What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

And who gets that money? The ones that think preaching abstinence is sexuel education.

I honestly do not know. The whole thing is a boondoggle I think. To show that we are "helping" for some reason. Why? The knowledge is out there already...AIDS is 100% preventable. So what is there to fight? Ignorance? No amount of money thrown at that problem will make it go away.

Thats true...but we do seem to help out a lot of people...not always with military personnel, mostly with money. We are now spending 15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa....and completely preventable disease...and I as a taxpayer am sending money over there to help fight a disease that need not be contracted in the first place. Even the UN has written Africa off to AIDS as it is out of control...so sending money there is not going to change a thing, it will just make some dictator richer.

I know. That was indeed very generous. Though I think that most of it goes via US Aid. So the US can decide who gets it. And there are also disputes. There is after all the question how to prevent the further spread of the disease: through abstention (which is favored by the US) or through contraceptives (more favored by UN programs).
And by the way: there are countries which are more generous in developing aid and such things: the Scandinavian countries are. They spent more of the GDP on it - and that is the only thing you can seriously refer to. The US is after all the strongest single power. So it spends of coures in absolute numbers the most. Shouldn´t surprise you. Though in relative numbers it is not the most. I don´t criticize that. You have to decide about were you priorities lay. And it can´t be said that the US government spents to little on defense, though.

I honestly do not know. The whole thing is a boondoggle I think. To show that we are "helping" for some reason. Why? The knowledge is out there already...AIDS is 100% preventable. So what is there to fight? Ignorance? No amount of money thrown at that problem will make it go away.
Well, if the money was used to actually do some sexuel education, the use of condoms beeing the most importand one, it wouldn't be wasted like it is now.

I know. That was indeed very generous. Though I think that most of it goes via US Aid. So the US can decide who gets it. And there are also disputes. There is after all the question how to prevent the further spread of the disease: through abstention (which is favored by the US) or through contraceptives (more favored by UN programs).
And by the way: there are countries which are more generous in developing aid and such things: the Scandinavian countries are. They spent more of the GDP on it - and that is the only thing you can seriously refer to. The US is after all the strongest single power. So it spends of coures in absolute numbers the most. Shouldn´t surprise you. Though in relative numbers it is not the most. I don´t criticize that. You have to decide about were you priorities lay. And it can´t be said that the US government spents to little on defense, though.

Well, sometimes I wish we would not spend so much on things outside the US. As for defense, what do we spend 5% of the GDP? European countries spend something like 1% on average and the USSR was spending something like 20% when it fell. That is a LOT of money on defense, but when you are spread out as we are.... Haiti, Afganistan, Iraq, South Korea, Bosnia and Kosovo and those are just where we have ongoing operations. Then the other 115 countries we have troops in. I personally think we should bring them home, but thats just me. Playing world policeman is just too big a job for one country and for the life of me I cannot remember who hired us for that job anyway?

Well, if the money was used to actually do some sexuel education, the use of condoms beeing the most importand one, it wouldn't be wasted like it is now.

Thats true....and "maybe" it will be, but I doubt it......

[b]
Can you say '35 Million below the Poverty line?'

Can you say 'Huge-ass taxes in all of Europe?' Can you say 'massive gov't intervention in private citizens' lives in Europe?'


Can you say 'Islamaphobia?'

Can you say '3,000+ Americans killed on 9/11?'


Can you say 'Allowing of racists to broadcast hate?' (Rush Limbaugh)

Can you say 'Freedom of speech?'


Can you say 'Concentration of Wealth?'

Can you say 'In America, wealth is not distributed, it's earned?'


Can you say 'Indoctrination?'

Can you say 'Freedom of speech?'



Can you say 'Hyperpatriotism?'

Can you say 'Americans have pride in being American?'



Can you say 'Foreign Policy?'

Can you say 'Freeing two nations from totalitarian gov'ts and disarming Lybia without a shot being fired?'


Can you say 'The Most Hated Nation on Earth?'


Can you say 'We saved Europe twice?'

Me!

Well, sometimes I wish we would not spend so much on things outside the US. As for defense, what do we spend 5% of the GDP? European countries spend something like 1% on average and the USSR was spending something like 20% when it fell. That is a LOT of money on defense, but when you are spread out as we are.... Haiti, Afganistan, Iraq, South Korea, Bosnia and Kosovo and those are just where we have ongoing operations. Then the other 115 countries we have troops in. I personally think we should bring them home, but thats just me. Playing world policeman is just too big a job for one country and for the life of me I cannot remember who hired us for that job anyway?

If the US spent as much as the USSR I would really be concerned. Because now economy can work in the long-run if the government sent that much on the military field as the Soviet Union did.
I think it is somewhere around 5%. So: still handable but really not too little, I think.
The US is indeed engages in many fields. And that is a problem also for the US because it is almost impossible to have an eye on every conflict involved. And due to that mistakes can happen.
Although a unilateral withdrawl of the US can´t be a solution. That would only leave chaos behind.
But it may be considered whether others could over. As an European conservative I would actually say that the stabilisation of the balcans has made a lot of progress but there is still the need of a security presence. So: why not offer the US to take over this mission completly. In return of course the US couldn´t expect an enlargement of our participation in Afghanistan.
So: burden-sharing in a regional way. Not every country participates in every mission. But in return it my take over others and engages more and would by doing so enable the US to use it forces for other things it deems necessary.
That would also create a new basis for the transatlantic alliance.

If the US spent as much as the USSR I would really be concerned. Because now economy can work in the long-run if the government sent that much on the military field as the Soviet Union did.
I think it is somewhere around 5%. So: still handable but really not too little, I think.
The US is indeed engages in many fields. And that is a problem also for the US because it is almost impossible to have an eye on every conflict involved. And due to that mistakes can happen.
Although a unilateral withdrawl of the US can´t be a solution. That would only leave chaos behind.
But it may be considered whether others could over. As an European conservative I would actually say that the stabilisation of the balcans has made a lot of progress but there is still the need of a security presence. So: why not offer the US to take over this mission completly. In return of course the US couldn´t expect an enlargement of our participation in Afghanistan.
So: burden-sharing in a regional way. Not every country participates in every mission. But in return it my take over others and engages more and would by doing so enable the US to use it forces for other things it deems necessary.
That would also create a new basis for the transatlantic alliance.

Wow, a good idea. Sound reasoning. By bringing in more European troops to the Balkans it would free the US troops there to go into Iraq or Afganistan if necessary since the European nations will not help there, they could certainly offer to help with something in their own back yard. Unilateral withdrawal of US trops would cause chaos, thats for sure. In many places they are the only thing preventing anarchy.

@Colerica: I can understand you're angry about 9/11 (oh yeah, technically in Europe it should be 11/9 cos we say 11th september not september 11th, but never mind it doesn't really matter), but please don't have a negative attitude about Muslims. I'll give you the name of a country that you may think sounds extremely evil: 'The United Arab Emirates'.

Due to many American's (and many europeans actually) negative attitudes to Arabs, you might think this is some kind of terrorist haven, but it isn't, it's an excellent holiday destination. The muslims there were definately some of the nicest people I've ever met, it just happens that the small few that are being publicised, such as the Al Qaeda people and Palestinians (although I don't think they are doing more wrong than Israelis), do things that go against our western morals.

I'm sure some argue that suicide bombings are no worse than an attack by an army, it's just a difference between the innocent victims of suicide bombings and the (mostly) military victims of an army battle.

Sorry for the long and varied post, just thought I'd share my views. Please don't go nuts and flame me ;)

Oh yeah, I like Europe better, but if I was raised in America I'd probably think Europe was backward and weird.

Can you say '3,000+ Americans killed on 9/11?'

And that justifies Islamophobia? By that logic I could hate practicaly every nation and all 'races'


Can you say 'Americans have pride in being American?'

Provided you tow the party line. Anyway, it is pointless being proud of you nation, very choose their country.

Can you say 'Freeing two nations from totalitarian gov'ts and disarming Lybia without a shot being fired?'

Can you say, "No thanks to the Americans, and all thanks to the British?"

Can you say 'We saved Europe twice?'

Bullcrap. Can you say "Civil Strife, Naval blockade, over extenstion of supply lines, shortages of essentials, mass starvation, lack of man power and a flu epidemic?"

Wow, a good idea. Sound reasoning. By bringing in more European troops to the Balkans it would free the US troops there to go into Iraq or Afganistan if necessary since the European nations will not help there, they could certainly offer to help with something in their own back yard. Unilateral withdrawal of US trops would cause chaos, thats for sure. In many places they are the only thing preventing anarchy.
Actually, Germany has quite a large number of troops in Afghanistan.

Actually, Germany has quite a large number of troops in Afghanistan.

I was referring to Iraq, I am aware of who is in Afganistan.

Wow, a good idea. Sound reasoning. By bringing in more European troops to the Balkans it would <free</a> the US troops there to go into Iraq or Afganistan if necessary since the European nations will not help there, they could certainly offer to help with something in their own back yard. Unilateral withdrawal of US trops would cause chaos, thats for sure. In many places they are the only thing preventing anarchy.
Well: and it would improve the transatlantic relationship. Many European countries are unwilling to sent troops to Iraq. For some governments that would also mean to lose face - and they are unwilling to that. After all: who wants to lose face??? And there is after all the public opinion against it. For example in my country - Germany. And also if there is a "regime change" in 2006 which I hope it would be not possible for the government to simply ignore that. On the other hand they want to improve relations to the US. So: currently that is done via sending more troops to Afghanistan (for examply by Germany, but also by Spain (which withdrew from Iraq (that´s true) but in return firstly sent troops to Afghanistan).
But sending troops in this region in our own continent would be possible for every country in Europe to participate since it is clearly in our national interests. And I´m shure - that would be supported also by public opinion, since it is our continent and we are already engaged there.

Well: and it would improve the transatlantic relationship. Many European countries are unwilling to sent troops to Iraq. For some governments that would also mean to lose face - and they are unwilling to that. After all: who wants to lose face??? And there is after all the public opinion against it. For example in my country - Germany. And also if there is a "regime change" in 2006 which I hope it would be not possible for the government to simply ignore that. On the other hand they want to improve relations to the US. So: currently that is done via sending more troops to Afghanistan (for examply by Germany, but also by Spain (which withdrew from Iraq (that´s true) but in return firstly sent troops to Afghanistan).
But sending troops in this region in our own continent would be possible for every country in Europe to participate since it is clearly in our national interests. And I´m shure - that would be supported also by public opinion, since it is our continent and we are already engaged there.

Yep, the European countries should take more of an interest in the affairs in their own neighborhood. Hopefully the future will see that happening. maybe with the EU that can be realized and allow more opportunities to not "lose face" over things like Bosnia.

What???? You don´t go to McDonalds????? Incredible. I don´t go to McDonalds that often. But I went to McDonalds last month when I was for a short trip to France and just had time for FAST food.
They were pretty many McDonalds in France. By the way. There are also many in East Germany, where Giga is from. Pretty popular here, though. As well as in China and other places around the world. Though: today there are also many chinese fast food restaurants here. There are good as well. So: I see a lot of diversity to globalisation. It is after all Globalisation and not Americanisation - although some people falsely see it that way.


I have an issue with fast food.. i dont really go to any fast food restaurants if i can avoid it, and normally i can do exactly that!

I like McDonalds. I could eat there every day and not gain any weight. I have weighed the same for years and I eat as much of whatever I want to eat. I have an extremely high metabolism.

As a Canadian citizen living in America (not by choice mind you, I'm only 15), I can see how much the current Administration has destroyed America's good name worldwide. Europeans, Canadians, etc. dislike Bush's policies. Unfortunately, through the lack of an alternate image of America being presented to the world, many assume by extension that most Americans are arrogant, uber-capitalistic, nationalistic, etc. This isn't true. Half of us voted for Al Gore (more, actually). Most Americans are good people. If only we could demonstrate that to the world, without people like Biff and some of the others here just proving the foreign stereotype of the angry, arrogant Americans. I personally like Europe better from what I've heard from friends who have visited, as well as what I know about European policies. America's a good place to live too, though we can do a lot better.

As a Canadian citizen living in America (not by choice mind you, I'm only 15), I can see how much the current Administration has destroyed America's good name worldwide. Europeans, Canadians, etc. dislike Bush's policies. Unfortunately, through the lack of an alternate image of America being presented to the world, many assume by extension that most Americans are arrogant, uber-capitalistic, nationalistic, etc. This isn't true. Half of us voted for Al Gore (more, actually). Most Americans are good people. If only we could demonstrate that to the world, without people like Biff and some of the others here just proving the foreign stereotype of the angry, arrogant Americans. I personally like Europe better from what I've heard from friends who have visited, as well as what I know about European policies. America's a good place to live too, though we can do a lot better.

I think you're about right with all of that. I've always wanted to spend a few years living the 'American dream' (cliche alert), the one thing that I'm afraid I wouldn't like is being surrounded by people who can't think for themselves, and believes everything the government tells them without question. I know that there won't be lots of people like that, but there are some, and it would scare me that they can't think for themselves.

Oh yeah, actually there's 2 things I don't like. Why do Americans put such HUGE engines in all their cars? I mean, European cars aren't slow at all, and the average size for an engine in a European family car (rough estimate) is 1.8 litres. The Ford Taurus has a 3 litre (yes, thats spelt right cos thats how we spell litre in the UK). Why?? It's wrecking the planet!!

EDIT: Actually, I think it's spelt LITER in German, sorry, I'm confusing languages :rolleyes:

Yep, the European countries should take more of an interest in the affairs in their own neighborhood. Hopefully the future will see that happening. maybe with the EU that can be realized and allow more opportunities to not "lose face" over things like Bosnia. .

True: European countries have failed in the early 90s. Though we have learned from that and have from the begining on engaged ourself after Dayton in Bosnia and participated and engaged ourself in Cosovo. That was a very, very difficult parth, especially for a country like Germany. You may not believe it given our militaristic history till 1945. But the result of this history was to say we should never use troops abroad and never use force. But that has changes due to the experiences in the balcans. It has been realized that sometimes the use of force is neccessary as a last resort.
And that what Germany did together with the US, Britain, France and Italy.
And there are a lot of our troops already there. After Britain Germany is the third largest contributer to international missions. So: it has already happened and is happening. And the army reform is going to increase the troops available for such missions.

Oh yeah, actually there's 2 things I don't like. Why do Americans put such HUGE engines in all their cars? I mean, European cars aren't slow at all, and the average size for an engine in a European family car (rough estimate) is 1.8 litres. The Ford Taurus has a 3 litre (yes, thats spelt right cos thats how we spell litre in the UK). Why?? It's wrecking the planet!!

Do we? My car has a 1.9liter engine. Quite small and 40mpg. However, we do have the ROOM to get out and GO if we want to. Of course the bigger the engine the more it costs to operate. Thats the thing about freedom, people can do things that make other ask questions.

IS it wrecking the planet? So many studies....but no real answers. Al Gore gives a speech on global warming....on the coldest day on record. Now is THAT not great timing? LOL

True: European countries have failed in the early 90s. Though we have learned from that and have from the begining on engaged ourself after Dayton in Bosnia and participated and engaged ourself in Cosovo. That was a very, very difficult parth, especially for a country like Germany. You may not believe it given our militaristic history till 1945. But the result of this history was to say we should never use troops abroad and never use force. But that has changes due to the experiences in the balcans. It has been realized that sometimes the use of force is neccessary as a last resort.
And that what Germany did together with the US, Britain, France and Italy.
And there are a lot of our troops already there. After Britain Germany is the third largest contributer to international missions. So: it has already happened and is happening. And the army reform is going to increase the troops available for such missions.

I see an eventual withdrawal of ALL US troops in the next few years from Europe. They will no longer be needed there. As for those who think we can put Iraq together in a few months...look how long it took to put Europe back together again and those were modern states.

I see an eventual withdrawal of ALL US troops in the next few years from Europe. They will no longer be needed there. As for those who think we can put Iraq together in a few months...look how long it took to put Europe back together again and those were modern states.

That is true. A friends kid just finished boot. They tried to get him to go to a certain program and the enticement was "We can guarantee you will be in Iraq through 2005."

I have heard 2006 now and I am pretty sure we will hear 2007 next year.....

In many places they are the only thing preventing anarchy.
But you don't see any of them in Kandahar. I just saw it on TV in a documentary titled: Americas crusades.
Kandahar is the rally point for extremists in Afghanistan. And while the Americans promised them generouse help, thats all there was. A promise.

(The German reporters where not realy welcomed in Kandahar. The hostile attitude towards them however changed once it was clear they weren't Americans. :D An American wouldn't have made it out of there alive.)

Do we? My car has a 1.9liter engine. Quite small and 40mpg. However, we do have the ROOM to get out and GO if we want to. Of course the bigger the engine the more it costs to operate. Thats the thing about freedom, people can do things that make other ask questions.

IS it wrecking the planet? So many studies....but no real answers. Al Gore gives a speech on global warming....on the coldest day on record. Now is THAT not great timing? LOL

Fair enough, I don't want to start an argument, but as a comparison, the Ford Taurus has a 3.0 litre as standard, 153hp, 25mpg average (about)
http://www.fordvehicles.com/taurus/

The UK equivalent, the Ford Mondeo, has a 1.8 litre engine as its most popular, which has 123hp and does 36mpg average. Not a huge difference, but all i'm saying is why don't Ford just use the more economical UK engine in the Taurus too? It would save petrol and give out less CO2, which MAY BE damaging the atmosphere.

As a Canadian citizen living in America (not by choice mind you, I'm only 15), I can see how much the current Administration has destroyed America's good name worldwide.


I am not too worried. Names are built and lost all the time.

If Germany can rise past the stigma of the Third Reich, we can as well.

The world will start chaning it's views once the shrub is voted out of office.

I see an eventual withdrawal of ALL US troops in the next few years from Europe. They will no longer be needed there.
I don´t see a complete withdrawl though, but a very huge reduction. But again: there has been a reduction of them since the end of the cold war. That is due to the change of the geopolitical situation. And in Europe there was a big change for the better between 1989-1992.
So: the continuation of this reduction is just logic.
It is also necessary and unavoidable for the US to do so since the US needs this troops for other missions.

True: European countries have failed in the early 90s. Though we have learned from that and have from the begining on engaged ourself after Dayton in Bosnia and participated and engaged ourself in Cosovo. That was a very, very difficult parth, especially for a country like Germany. You may not believe it given our militaristic history till 1945. But the result of this history was to say we should never use troops abroad and never use force. But that has changes due to the experiences in the balcans. It has been realized that sometimes the use of force is neccessary as a last resort.
And that what Germany did together with the US, Britain, France and Italy.
And there are a lot of our troops already there. After Britain Germany is the third largest contributer to international missions. So: it has already happened and is happening. And the army reform is going to increase the troops available for such missions.

An who thought all Europeans are self absorbed! ;)

Many of my countrymen seem to forget that Germany as a reasonable contingent in Afghanistan.

I personally have not beefs with them and for the most part they do great work.

Question: It's rather off the wall but is the EU making any plans for building up Africa? Considering their affairs and colonialism....

Like I said it's off the wall ;)

The world will start chaning it's views once the shrub is voted out of office.
Doubtfull. Cause Kerry, like Bush, is under the delusion that the world wants American leadership.

That is true. A <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=friends&v=56">friends</a> kid just finished boot. They tried to get him to go to a certain program and the enticement was "We can guarantee you will be in Iraq through 2005."

I have heard 2006 now and I am pretty sure we will hear 2007 next year.....
I don´t think anybody can predict how long the mission in Iraq lasts and how it turns out. It is a very risky mission. Although there are also opportunities for Iraq and the region. None the less it can not be expected that Iraq turns suddenly in a Jeffersonian style democracy.

Doubtfull. Cause Kerry, like Bush, is under the delusion that the world wants American leadership.

They don't?

Don't you mean the shrubs version of leadership?

Oppssss. I forgot you are one of those America is the Evil Empire types!

Soo never mind! ;)

They don't?

Don't you mean the shrubs version of leadership?

Oppssss. I forgot you are one of those America is the Evil Empire types!

Soo never mind! ;)
What?

I don´t think anybody can predict how long the mission in Iraq lasts and how it turns out. It is a very risky mission. Although there are also opportunities for Iraq and the region. None the less it can not be expected that Iraq turns suddenly in a Jeffersonian style democracy.

It is going to be hard as you can't simply take a totalitarian style country and say "Hey you know have a vote"

But the US can't pull out until there is some form of stability there.

If they want an Islamic Goverment and they can show they can "properly" maintain order, then the US has to respect that and move out.

It's interesting you hear the conservatives of this country complain about the liberals wanting to turn over autonomy to the UN and yet we can only turn over autonomy to the Iraqis as long as they follow what we say. :rolleyes:

Again, it would be a bad thing to leave right now.

Fair enough, I don't want to start an argument, but as a comparison, the Ford Taurus has a 3.0 litre as standard, 153hp, 25mpg average (about)
http://www.fordvehicles.com/taurus/

The UK equivalent, the Ford Mondeo, has a 1.8 litre engine as its most popular, which has 123hp and does 36mpg average. Not a huge difference, but all i'm saying is why don't Ford just use the more economical UK engine in the Taurus too? It would save petrol and give out less CO2, which MAY BE damaging the atmosphere.

I think it comes down to other factors too. Distances are greater here, I have to drive 17 miles one way to work, and with the A/C running (it is 94 outside right now) the smaller engines just wear out too quickly. The larger engines last much longer. Plus if you are driving on the Interstate (motorway) it helps that you can get out of your own way. it is a jungle out there...LOL

An who thought all Europeans are self absorbed! ;)
Many of my countrymen seem to forget that Germany as a reasonable contingent in Afghanistan.
I personally have not beefs with them and for the most part they do great work.
Question: It's rather off the wall but is the EU making any plans for building up Africa? Considering their affairs and colonialism....
Like I said it's off the wall ;)
I don´t know about any. Though France and Britain - as the two main former colonial powers have always some business down there. Germany hasn´t since it never had much colonies. We where after all a late nation - unification only 1871- so the "cake" was already divided up. And what we got in the 1880s was taken over by Britain and France in 1918/19.
Germany is indeed a continental power and pretty much absorbed with European affairs. Though: Afghanistan is an exception.
Britain and France do more think in global categories, Germany more in continental categories. That is indeed a strategic weakness of the country - which led historically to an underestimation of both the US and Russia. But that is off the wall as well.

It is going to be hard as you can't simply take a totalitarian style country and say "Hey you know have a vote"

But the US can't pull out until there is some form of stability there.

If they want an Islamic Goverment and they can show they can "properly" maintain order, then the US has to respect that and move out.
.
A cynicyl German orientalists - Peter Scholl-Latour - said: At the end either powers is transfered to a Sunni general (former Baathist) or to "moderate" shiite cleriks. But of course: any group here stands somehow against other. Best thing would be a power sharing deal. But in a system of one man one vote the shiites are going to take over. It is going to be very difficult to establish a system of cheques and balances which would keep the country stable and which would be accepted by the main communities - if that is at all possible. The Iraq question is going to remain a top news subject for several years - I´m shure.

I don´t know about any. Though France and Britain - as the two main former colonial powers have always some business down there. Germany hasn´t since it never had much colonies. We where after all a late nation - unification only 1871- so the "cake" was already divided up.
Also, the kings/electorates of Prussia/Brandenburg-Prussia never had realy an interest in gaining colonies. With the exception of Friedrich Wilhelm. Not even the Bismarck administration. He just gave in to big business.

I think it comes down to other factors too. Distances are greater here, I have to drive 17 miles one way to work, and with the A/C running (it is 94 outside right now) the smaller engines just wear out too quickly. The larger engines last much longer. Plus if you are driving on the Interstate (motorway) it helps that you can get out of your own way. it is a jungle out there...LOL

I know America's bigger but that doesn't matter. Our car has a 1.2 litre engine. It is too slow yes, but they don't wear out after 100 miles!! My mother also has to drive 17 miles one way to work, and does it in that car. We make the 500 mile round trip to see relatives about 3 times a year. We too have hot summers!! We wouldn't sell cars if they couldn't run while the air conditioning was on!! And anyway, in that Mondeo example, it only had 30bhp less, it is still quite fast. I know you were half joking, but I do believe I have a good point.

Oh yeah, my dad's car is 14 years old (just a substitute for a motorbike when it's rainy, icy etc.), and it only has a 1 litre engine!! But it's a VW, which means it still works perfectly, and the whole car is extremely solid. I think it's just that America is used to having large engines in cars, I know of many manufacturers who sell cars in both Europe and America don't offer smaller engines in America, as they know they just won't sell them.

I know America's bigger but that doesn't matter. Our car has a 1.2 litre engine. It is too slow yes, but they don't wear out after 100 miles!! My mother also has to drive 17 miles one way to work, and does it in that car. We make the 500 mile round trip to see relatives about 3 times a year. We too have hot summers!! We wouldn't sell cars if they couldn't run while the air conditioning was on!! And anyway, in that Mondeo example, it only had 30bhp less, it is still quite fast. I know you were half joking, but I do believe I have a good point.

Maybe, but it could also have something to do with Americans love of cars. The 60's were the days of the muscle car and those days seem to be coming back. We have cars we can buy here with 725 HP. Imagine such a thing. 160MPH top speed on the Interstate. Why you ask? I have no idea. My little car is just fine for me, but not everyone wants a small car with a small engine. Thats why there are options. if they build it...someone will buy it.

Check out www.uniqueperformance.com and see for yourself.

Europe has the better Nature, no doubt there please. We also have the better overall political system. And the weaker army... then again if Usa attacked us we would still oblitorate you... and you us so stalemate there

and Osama or any muslim country taking over europe :D ?
a joke ?... 2 words

1. better army than any other exept the Usa
2. nuclear weapons

and lets not forget that when the f22 is made standard and Europe gets mainly the JSF and the Eurofighter we will have some kick ass air force.. smaller but better

also we are less influenced bye religion.. so we have a more free mind than you people... no offence ment in that ofc.

also the Usa gun control is a joke and the constitution is a relic of a very ancient past...

Europe has the better Nature, no doubt there please. We also have the better overall political system. And the weaker army... then again if Usa attacked us we would still oblitorate you... and you us so stalemate there

and Osama or any muslim country taking over europe :D ?
a joke ?... 2 words

1. better army than any other exept the Usa
2. nuclear weapons

and lets not forget that when the f22 is made standard and Europe gets mainly the JSF and the Eurofighter we will have some kick ass air force.. smaller but better

also we are less influenced bye religion.. so we have a more free mind than you people... no offence ment in that ofc.

also the Usa gun control is a joke and the constitution is a relic of a very ancient past...

Laying it on a little thick aren't you? Tell us how you really feel? ;)

Maybe, but it could also have something to do with Americans love of cars. The 60's were the days of the muscle car and those days seem to be coming back. We have cars we can buy here with 725 HP. Imagine such a thing. 160MPH top speed on the Interstate. Why you ask? I have no idea. My little car is just fine for me, but not everyone wants a small car with a small engine. Thats why there are options. if they build it...someone will buy it.

Check out www.uniqueperformance.com and see for yourself.

I think you're right, but I think it would do everyone good if American manufacturers slowly downsized engines. Maybe start by reducing engine sizes by 0.5 litres, then another 0.5 etc. Eventually people would just accept it. Also, there seems to be a possible lack of investment in American engines. A popular motoring journalist here in the UK always makes fun of the fact that many BIG american engines often produce so little power. It is possible to have engines with smaller litreage (i invented a new word!! i think) with lots of power.

Another example, another Taurus sized car on sale in the UK. 2.2 litre, but 145bhp. Only 8bhp off the Taurus, but smaller engine by nearly a third. And it'll be a lot faster because American cars seem to be heavy for no reason.

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?

Who has the largest economy (EU)

Who is the most environmentally friendly (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who has better public services (EU)

Who has less proportional poverty (EU)

Who has fatter people (US)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Who doesn't give a damn about anyone but the rich (US)


Who spent hundreds of years fighting each other? (EU)

Who has invented the plane, the car, the internet we argue on? (US)

Who would rather give criminals a free Roof over their head and food rather than give them the death penalty they deserve(EU)

Who saved EU's ass 60 years ago and put billions of dollars of its own money in reconstructing it? (US)

Who funds the UN more than any one else? Who supplied it with the most military aid? (US)

Who would rather cower to terrorist and let them attack with out retaliating? (EU except britain and poland)

Who has superior military power? (US)

Who makes deals with dicatators behind their allies backs? (the french who is part of the EU)

Who has the most influence in the world? (US)

So looking at that I can say the US is a hell of alot better than the EU. The EU aint even a country its an orgization I actually would look forword to it becoming one nation so that it only has one vote in the defunked UN just like us but chnaces are they are gonna just keep the control of the UN and try and boss us around again.

Aside from Nazi Weaponized Virus's flames, I am happier living in Europe now. I prefer the political situation here, more public holidays and the government services (even though the Irish health service is shit!). I think that Europe is more beautiful than America too. But...

As the title says - vote on which continent is the best?
Who doesn't give a damn about 'patriotism' (EU)

Who is Socialist (EU)

Neither of these statements are true.

NWV, where are you getting your information? How do you figure that the EU is socialist. For the past decade we have watched the EU become a right-wing free market intitution that bows to big business.

You say patriotism as if it is bad. Love of one's country is good. Nationalism, that is the belief that your country has divine rights over others, is bad. One of your big contradictions is that you criticise the Brits and Americans for meing nationalist, but you are the most nationalist EU citizen I have ever heard.

to conclude:

THE EU IS NOT SOCIALIST

P.S. You give the thumbs up to Mexico. Why? They have a corrupt, capitalistic system with a huge amount of economic inequality.

P.P.S. NWV, please, please stop flaming America in general! Do you know how bad you are making us Europeans look? I hate it when American idiots take jabs at us, but that doesn't mean we should stoop to their level.

I also am in agreement with Sheikh Bin Laden over many of his demands - and I agreed with the attacking of the USS Cole and the suicide attack on the Pentagon as they were military targets. If Al Qaeda had not of attacked The Twin Towers I would have been celebrating 9/11 as a day in which America's military hub was attacked.
You know, most of the people who were killed or injured in the Pentagon were actually civilians.

Do you realise how stupid you look when you endorse al-Qaeda? You think the US is brutal and intolerant? Besides, just because you're angry about US foreign policy (believe me, I am too) doesn't mean that seventeen mothers of US Navy servicemen deserve to receive letters saying "your son died".

Do you even read what you are typing? Are you on drugs?

Europe has the better Nature, no doubt there please. We also have the better overall political system. And the weaker army... then again if Usa attacked us we would still oblitorate you... and you us so stalemate there

and Osama or any muslim country taking over europe :D ?
a joke ?... 2 words

1. better army than any other exept the Usa
2. nuclear weapons

and lets not forget that when the f22 is made standard and Europe gets mainly the JSF and the Eurofighter we will have some kick ass air force.. smaller but better

also we are less influenced bye religion.. so we have a more free mind than you people... no offence ment in that ofc.

also the Usa gun control is a joke and the constitution is a relic of a very ancient past...

The constition is old yes but whats so great about it it can change to fit the era it is in.

Who spent hundreds of years fighting each other?
Unless you count in the Indians as Americans. They weren't tree hugging, make love not war hippies.

Who has invented the plane, the car, the internet we argue on?
I could have sworn it was Gottlieb Daimler.

Who would rather give criminals a free Roof over their head and food rather than give them the death penalty they deserve
You mean criminals like Saddam, Osama, Ferdinand Marcos and others, who were at one point or another best buddies with the US?

Who saved EU's ass 60 years ago and put billions of dollars of its own money in reconstructing it?
There was no EU 60 years ago.

Who funds the UN more than any one else? Who supplied it with the most military aid?
Germany? Britain? France? Cause the US still has a big debt to the UN/

Who would rather cower to terrorist and let them attack with out retaliating? (EU except britain and poland)
Who helped create those terrorists? Not the EU.

Who makes deals with dicatators behind their allies backs? (the french who is part of the EU)
Who helps install dictators? Thats right. The US.

How dare you bring this argument back on topic!! Me and Biff Pileon were bringing it nicely off topic by arguing about engine sizes, you should be ashamed!!

Oh yeah, I'm joking.

And that justifies Islamophobia? By that logic I could hate practicaly every nation and all 'races'


Islam is not a race, it's a religion.....


Provided you tow the party line. Anyway, it is pointless being proud of you nation, very choose their country.

No, anyone, regardless of their party, can be patriotic. What the hell is wrong with having some pride in where you live?


Can you say, "No thanks to the Americans, and all thanks to the British?"

Can you say, 'America supplied the most troops in both liberations?'


Bullcrap. Can you say "Civil Strife, Naval blockade, over extenstion of supply lines, shortages of essentials, mass starvation, lack of man power and a flu epidemic?"

Well, if you don't count America intervening in World War I, to save the French from the Germans (which we did, had we not gotten in there at the time we did, Germany would have reached Paris in 3 weeks, and forced a settlement...we won the war, but lost the peace.) If you don't count America intervening in World War II, and saving all of Europe (with the help of the British and the Soviets), from Nazi Germany (without our help, Britian would have fallen to Germany within a matter of weeks and would have became the Fuhrer's island retreat, if you will). If you don't count both of those grievous situations, I guess you're right that we didn't save Europe....oh, and it was also all American money that rebuilt all of Europe....both times...infact, the only nation to fully pay us back what they owed us was Finland (props for that Finland... :p)...not that we're asking Britian, France, Germany, et al, to pay us back or anything......

Yes, the French intervened in the American Revolution, but by the time they got here, it was far too late for them to make much of a difference, soldier-wise. Their biggest help to us was money, gun powder, artillary, and muskets. The majority of French troops that were in America, could be found sitting in American pubs, drinking American ale, and chasing American women. They finally got their act together at Yorktown by cutting off Charles Cornwallis' retreat route.

Me!

Well, if you don't count America intervening in World War I, to save the French from the Germans (which we did, had we not gotten in there at the time we did, Germany would have reached Paris in 3 weeks, and forced a settlement...we won the war, but lost the peace.) If you don't count America intervening in World War II, and saving all of Europe (with the help of the British and the Soviets), from Nazi Germany (without our help, Britian would have fallen to Germany within a matter of weeks and would have became the Fuhrer's island retreat, if you will). If you don't count both of those grievous situations, I guess you're right that we didn't save Europe....oh, and it was also all American money that rebuilt all of Europe....both times...infact, the only nation to fully pay us back what they owed us was Finland (props for that Finland... :p)...not that we're asking Britian, France, Germany, et al, to pay us back or anything......

Yes, the French intervened in the American Revolution, but by the time they got here, it was far too late for them to make much of a difference, soldier-wise. Their biggest help to us was money, gun powder, artillary, and muskets. The majority of French troops that were in America, could be found sitting in American pubs, drinking American ale, and chasing American women. They finally got their act together at Yorktown by cutting off Charles Cornwallis' retreat route.

Me!
:fluffle: Just keep telling that to yourself.

Colerica - do you use your brain before typing? Because you made some pretty bad mistakes. All right, your troops probably stopped Kaiser Wilhelm taking over Europe. And you definitely helped defeat Hitler. But YOU WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES TO DO ANYTHING. Russia did a hell of a lot. They lost millions of men with virtually no support from anyone else. And you know what? NEVER have i heard a russian going on about how they saved our ass. If it hadn't been for them, Hitler would only have had one front: Western Europe. And he would have been on British soil before you helped.
And yes, your money helped rebuild Europe. But hey, you didn't have most of your resources and infrastructure destroyed by the biggest war to date. And do you remember the Great Depression in 1939? Do you know why it was so bad in Europe with famines for years? because America called in EVERY SINGLE LOAN.
And hey, the French actually did send some men though didn't they? They tried to help you, just like you tried to help Western Europe and Britain tried to help Belgium at the start of World War 1. And you're not going to try and tell me that the US soldiers in Europe never went in a bar, never chased a single pretty lady?
Think about what you've just written before you press that *Submit Reply* button.

PS. Your country. Have you noticed that's pretty close to Germany under the Nazis (except that they had decent welfare, social infrstructure etc)? Youre flag looks like a copy. Your Agenda looks like a copy. Even your motto looks like a copy of their ideals. If you are that extremely Pro-USA, then you will probably be very anti-Nazi. Why are you making a country that's a copy?

How dare you bring this argument back on topic!! Me and Biff Pileon were bringing it nicely off topic by arguing about engine sizes, you should be ashamed!!

Oh yeah, I'm joking.

BTW-My first new car I bought was a 1970 AMC Javelin 390 with a standard v8 4v 325hp. After some funky stuff we did to it back then, I was pushing 450bhp, and ran the 1/4 in 9.8 seconds. But alas I got married and had kids, so we switched to a used station. Back then we didn't make very much in the service. Only after the kids were grown did my wife let me get my hands on another classic. This time a 1965 427 Cobra, still the finest car (besides the GT40) that regulary beat the pants off of anything Europe threw at it. ;)

also we are less influenced bye religion.. so we have a more free mind than you people... no offence ment in that ofc.



Ahhhhhh... The irony.

1. Europe's (or rather the countries residing within) past is far more influenced by religion then the USA ever was.

2. But... Relgion is very intrenched in us politics nowadays (Republicans *cough*). Especially in the governement (Ex: God Bless America constantly being sung and quoted by W, The "Under God" in the The Pledge Of Alligance). This is the most ironic thing, since the Constituition demands a seperation of Chruch and State.

Colerica - do you use your brain before typing?

Of course. My brain tells me to what keys to strike when I'm typing my intelligent replies to such nonsense as this.

Because you made some pretty bad mistakes.

Oh really?

All right, your troops probably stopped Kaiser Wilhelm taking over Europe.

Probably stopped Kaiser Wilhelm? There's no probably about it. Ask any historian. The United States won World War One, but we lost the peace that followed it....and we didn't do a damn thing to stop the Treaty of Versailles, which only served to create WWII. I'm not saying that the Kaiser would have taken over Europe. I'm not sure if he would have. He could have. But I don't know if he would have....

And you definitely helped defeat Hitler.

Well, that's a given.

But YOU WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES TO DO ANYTHING.

I never said that the US were the only ones to do anything. I'll give credit where credit is due. Britian, Russia, and Australia were three of the biggest foreign helpers in the war. However, had the socialist, FDR, continued his isolationism, they would have all fallen to Hitler and Hirohito. Britian was on the fringe of collapse by the time the US started actively helping them. Hitler's blockade would have choked-off Britian and they would have surrendered.

Hitler did the biggest mistake in modern warfare when he turned on Stalin. Had he not done that, we may very well still have a Third Reich ruling all of Europe. Yes, the Soviets did a hell of a lot and they lost the most men (partly because of the Germans, partly because of Stalin's odd tactics in running the war). But, had we not interferred in the war, Hitler would have taken the USSR as well...or at least fought to a stand-still and signed a truce with Stalin.....

Russia did a hell of a lot. They lost millions of men with virtually no support from anyone else.

See above.

And you know what? NEVER have i heard a russian going on about how they saved our ass.

That's because they didn't save our ass.

If it hadn't been for them, Hitler would only have had one front: Western Europe. And he would have been on British soil before you helped.

This is true. It's not Russia's help that factors into the one front/two front ordeal...it's the fact that Hitler screwed up his war plans and attacked Stalin in the first place.....we should all be fortunate that a brilliant general like Erwin Rommel didn't have command of all of Germany, because he wouldn't have done something so stupid....


And yes, your money helped rebuild Europe.

Our money is what rebuilt Europe. Both times.

But hey, you didn't have most of your resources and infrastructure destroyed by the biggest war to date.

No, we were fortunate. You guys [Europe] started the war and it took it's obvious toll on your infastructure...

And do you remember the Great Depression in 1939? Do you know why it was so bad in Europe with famines for years? because America called in EVERY SINGLE LOAN.

A: The Great Depression started, for the US, in 1929 with the Stock Market Crash.

B: The Great Depression was in effect for all of Europe after WWI. They never truthfully recovered until the Second World War. The only countries that weren't in the thick of the Depression in the twenties were America, Russia, and Japan. (Russia because they spent too much time killing eachother and Japan because they spent all resources on constructing a military).

C: Calling on loans does absolutely nothing to cause famines.


And hey, the French actually did send some men though didn't they?

Yes, they did.

They tried to help you, just like you tried to help Western Europe and Britain tried to help Belgium at the start of World War 1.

We were repaying the favor for the French in WWI. Our soldiers sang, "Laffette, we have returned."

And you're not going to try and tell me that the US soldiers in Europe never went in a bar, never chased a single pretty lady?

Oh of course this happened. All the time. There were hundreds of soldiers who simply never returned from Europe. They had a baby with a local Euro woman and stayed there.


Think about what you've just written before you press that *Submit Reply* button.

Irrelevant ad hominem....



PS. Your country. Have you noticed that's pretty close to Germany under the Nazis (except that they had decent welfare, social infrstructure etc)? Youre flag looks like a copy. Your Agenda looks like a copy. Even your motto looks like a copy of their ideals. If you are that extremely Pro-USA, then you will probably be very anti-Nazi. Why are you making a country that's a copy?

My NS nation does not reflect my personal ideals. Yes, my nation is modelled after Nazi Germany. However, it's more modelled off the Roman Empire. My motto, "Believe. Obey. Fight.", comes from a propaganda poster in Mussolini's Italy. I am extremely 'pro-USA.' Just because I have a fascist (again, don't think Hitler, think Roman Empire) nation in NationStates (a nation simulation game) doesn't mean I support any of those ideals....

and lets not forget that when the f22 is made standard and Europe gets mainly the JSF and the Eurofighter we will have some kick ass air force.. smaller but better

Smaller yes, better no.

Oh, your not very well liked among other American nations, your foreign policy is the prime reason for this of course. Therefore I seriously doubt you could ever strike up a political agreement with other nations in the Americas. They just don't like your politics.
Have you ever considered that these nations would have a greater say in our politics if they joined in such an agreement?

I think you're right, but I think it would do everyone good if American manufacturers slowly downsized engines. Maybe start by reducing engine sizes by 0.5 litres, then another 0.5 etc. Eventually people would just accept it. Also, there seems to be a possible lack of investment in American engines. A popular motoring journalist here in the UK always makes fun of the fact that many BIG american engines often produce so little power. It is possible to have engines with smaller litreage (i invented a new word!! i think) with lots of power.

Another example, another Taurus sized car on sale in the UK. 2.2 litre, but 145bhp. Only 8bhp off the Taurus, but smaller engine by nearly a third. And it'll be a lot faster because American cars seem to be heavy for no reason.

Well, it also comes down to what people want. If people were not buying the cars with the big powerful engines, then they would stop making them. For a number of years this was the case, but in the last few years, bigger seems to be the norm. I personally would not buy a large vehicle, but thats just me. The gov't does put a fuel tax on cars that do not get a certain number of miles to the gallon in an attempt to limit their sales, but people just pay the tax and go on. For the record, there is a Farrari dealer near my house here, and those cars are pretty darn pawerful, but they also have large engines.

As for US cars being heavier....it probably has to do with all the safety and emission features they are required to have that European cars do not. As I have said, my business partners drive German cars (Mercedes and Porsche) and their cars are not as reliable as my little Saturn. So for my money, I will go with simple and economical.

Ahhhhhh... The irony.

1. Europe's (or rather the countries residing within) past is far more influenced by religion then the USA ever was.

2. But... Relgion is very intrenched in us politics nowadays (Republicans *cough*). Especially in the governement (Ex: God Bless America constantly being sung and quoted by W, The "Under God" in the The Pledge Of Alligance). This is the most ironic thing, since the Constituition demands a seperation of Chruch and State.

Actually...that topic has been beaten to death...but the Constitution does not demand separation of Church and State...what it does is stipulate that no official religion can be endorsed..such as the immense power and influence that the Church of England had in English Affairs or the Roman Catholic Church in the rest of Europe.

let's face it, europe is well past its former glory. the eu is nice but many parts of europe is riddled with wars, terrorism, neo-nazism, and becoming pet doggies for america.

america is being hampered down by things such as external wars and debt, and also threats to terrorism, corporate fraud, filthy politics and the like. to quote lord macartney of the 18th century:

"The Empire of China [America] is an old, crazy, First rate man-of-war, which a fortunate succession of able and vigilant officers [NOT!] has contrived to keep afloat for these one hundred and fifty years past, and to overawe their neighbours merely by her bulk and appearance, but whenever an insufficient man happens to have the command upon deck, adieu to the discipline and safety of the ship. She may perhaps not sink outright; she may drift some time as a wreck, and will then be dashed to pieces on the shore; but she can never be rebuilt on the old bottom." Lord Macartney 1794

would it kill any of you to recognize that both places have great things about them? would it kill any of you to recognize that we are all in this world together and that we shouldn't polarize each other by saying things like "we saved your asses" or "you are imperialist pigs". damn people we should try and help each other out not push someone elses head under to get our own out.

would it kill any of you to recognize that both places have great things about them? would it kill any of you to recognize that we are all in this world together and that we shouldn't polarize each other by saying things like "we saved your asses" or "you are imperialist pigs". damn people we should try and help each other out not push someone elses head under to get our own out.


hmm, doesent kill me.. i happen to like both for different reasons.. and my gf/fiancee is English.. now to find a nation where being lesbian isnt an issue..

Angel

Probably stopped Kaiser Wilhelm? There's no probably about it. Ask any historian. The United States won World War One, but we lost the peace that followed it....and we didn't do a damn thing to stop the Treaty of Versailles, which only served to create WWII. I'm not saying that the Kaiser would have taken over Europe. I'm not sure if he would have. He could have. But I don't know if he would have....
You don't know what might have happened.
I never said that the US were the only ones to do anything. I'll give credit where credit is due. Britian, Russia, and Australia were three of the biggest foreign helpers in the war. However, had the socialist, FDR, continued his isolationism, they would have all fallen to Hitler and Hirohito. Britian was on the fringe of collapse by the time the US started actively helping them. Hitler's blockade would have choked-off Britian and they would have surrendered.
Yes, but when you say, "We saved your ass" it sounds like you mean, we alone and no-one else.
Hitler did the biggest mistake in modern warfare when he turned on Stalin. Had he not done that, we may very well still have a Third Reich ruling all of Europe. Yes, the Soviets did a hell of a lot and they lost the most men (partly because of the Germans, partly because of Stalin's odd tactics in running the war). But, had we not interferred in the war, Hitler would have taken the USSR as well...or at least fought to a stand-still and signed a truce with Stalin.....
Russia lost so many men also because Operation Overlord was delayed. Stalin kept asking the US and UK to start it as soon as possible, but they delayed it.
That's because they didn't save our ass.
They might not have saved your ass, but they saved Europe.
No, we were fortunate. You guys [Europe] started the war and it took it's obvious toll on your infastructure...
Europe didn't really start that war. Hitler did.
A: The Great Depression started, for the US, in 1929 with the Stock Market Crash.

B: The Great Depression was in effect for all of Europe after WWI. They never truthfully recovered until the Second World War. The only countries that weren't in the thick of the Depression in the twenties were America, Russia, and Japan. (Russia because they spent too much time killing eachother and Japan because they spent all resources on constructing a military).

C: Calling on loans does absolutely nothing to cause famines.
America had a lot of trouble in the thirties - high unemployment, food shortages etc.
When the loans were called in, the people didn't have enough money to import food. People go hungry, they work less well. Agricultural production decreases...
We were repaying the favor for the French in WWI. Our soldiers sang, "Laffette, we have returned."
Yes. you were repaying a favour, so we don't owe you something for it.
Oh of course this happened. All the time. There were hundreds of soldiers who simply never returned from Europe. They had a baby with a local Euro woman and stayed there.
So how can you critise the french soldiers for doing the same?
My NS nation does not reflect my personal ideals. Yes, my nation is modelled after Nazi Germany. However, it's more modelled off the Roman Empire. My motto, "Believe. Obey. Fight.", comes from a propaganda poster in Mussolini's Italy. I am extremely 'pro-USA.' Just because I have a fascist (again, don't think Hitler, think Roman Empire) nation in NationStates (a nation simulation game) doesn't mean I support any of those ideals....
Fair enough.

Probably stopped Kaiser Wilhelm? There's no probably about it. Ask any historian. The United States won World War One, but we lost the peace that followed it....and we didn't do a damn thing to stop the Treaty of Versailles, which only served to create WWII. I'm not saying that the Kaiser would have taken over Europe. I'm not sure if he would have. He could have. But I don't know if he would have....

Ok, I'll consider myself asked, no, the US did not win World War One, in fact, sparing a miracle victory (even moreso then First Marne) by the Germans during Kaiserschlacht they lose the war, maybe by 1919 but they lose all the same. The US did little to end the war, we didn't really join the fray until it was decided (with the exception of the Marines at Bellau Wood, which wasn't decisively important, or the 3rd Division at Marne, which was decisive, but still did not mean German victory if they weren't there)



I never said that the US were the only ones to do anything. I'll give credit where credit is due. Britian, Russia, and Australia were three of the biggest foreign helpers in the war. However, had the socialist, FDR, continued his isolationism, they would have all fallen to Hitler and Hirohito. Britian was on the fringe of collapse by the time the US started actively helping them. Hitler's blockade would have choked-off Britian and they would have surrendered.

Technically speaking, Canada was a bigger help than Australia. Britain was no where near collapse in December 1941, the Battle of the Atlantic was still swinging back and forth, and the British were not far away from developing new systems which would even the odds. This is not to say they would have won, there is a large probability they could still lose the Battle of the Atlantic without B-24's, and American shipyards. If you think FDR was isolationist you are so wrong, we were for all purposes at war with Germany at sea by August 1941 (becuase of FDR), Britain was receiving massive amounts of aid from the US, and we had declared half of the Atlantic a Nuetrality Zone that German U-boats could not enter or the USN would attack them.

Hitler did the biggest mistake in modern warfare when he turned on Stalin. Had he not done that, we may very well still have a Third Reich ruling all of Europe. Yes, the Soviets did a hell of a lot and they lost the most men (partly because of the Germans, partly because of Stalin's odd tactics in running the war). But, had we not interferred in the war, Hitler would have taken the USSR as well...or at least fought to a stand-still and signed a truce with Stalin.....

Hitler really didn't have a choice, he actually should've attacked earlier instead of his foray into the Balkans and Greece to bail out Mussolini, his waiting until June meant he would reach Moscow too late, even if he hadn't shifted forces to Kiev. Also Stalin was drastically changing the Red Army around in 1941, starting from pre-Winter War Years, by 1942 he planned to have a massive offensive Red Army to take Europe with. This is a reason he went so catatonic following news of Barborossa. You are right about the USSR possibly losing without US help (in fact, it's likely they would have fought each other to death).


That's because they didn't save our ass.

No, but perhaps millions of young Americans, British, and Commonwealth soldiers.



This is true. It's not Russia's help that factors into the one front/two front ordeal...it's the fact that Hitler screwed up his war plans and attacked Stalin in the first place.....we should all be fortunate that a brilliant general like Erwin Rommel didn't have command of all of Germany, because he wouldn't have done something so stupid....

As mentioned above, he had to attack Stalin, it was a matter of who attacked first for idealogical reasons. And Rommel was not a brillian general, he was perhaps the best divisional commander of World War 2, his lead drive to the Atlantic was something to marvel, but he was a poor Corps and Army leader, and even worse Army Group leader, he would have fared badly on the Eastern Front. He often outran his Desert Supply Lines, knowing full well that he was doing so and the unlikelyhood that he could be reinforced by capturing a new port. He never tried to alleviate his supply situation, he simply ordered more from the Regia Marina, he did this again at Normandy, from Rundstudt. He can only claim to really have had two values which is charisma, and he knew when he was beaten.



Our money is what rebuilt Europe. Both times.

Our money destroyed it the first time, we didn't rebuild Europe after the First Great Circus of the Century, we demanded a lot of payment for war goods given to the Allies, severe economic problems later led us to forget about most of it. In fact most of those debts are outstanding to this day (except the fact we cancelled all of them), the only country to fully repay it's pre-WWII debt to the US was Finland.


A: The Great Depression started, for the US, in 1929 with the Stock Market Crash.

B: The Great Depression was in effect for all of Europe after WWI. They never truthfully recovered until the Second World War. The only countries that weren't in the thick of the Depression in the twenties were America, Russia, and Japan. (Russia because they spent too much time killing eachother and Japan because they spent all resources on constructing a military).

Europe was not in severe depression following World War I, they were in a recession, at times a bad one but not a Depression. Look at Weimar Germany, they went from their astronomical money problems to a stable and growing economy by 1927, even expecting to pay back their Versailles reperations before the 50 year expectancy.

C: Calling on loans does absolutely nothing to cause famines.

Eh... he's right here, and I do not recall any widespread famine due to lack of money in 1939.



We were repaying the favor for the French in WWI. Our soldiers sang, "Laffette, we have returned."

I believe you are referring to what General Pershing was reported to have said when he entered Paris, in fact, it wasn't even him who said it, he admits this in his memoirs, that he could not have come up with something so perfect. And we did little to repay that debt, we did that in WWII, but allies really shouldn't have debts to each other, you help your allies out. you don't see the British going all around yelling at the French that they owe them for saving their asses in World War One (as they rightfully did, not the US).

Can you say, 'America supplied the most troops in both liberations?'

Wrong, the Army of the Liberation (the one landed on Normandy) was in fact roughly split down the middle half American, half British/Canadian, throw in the Free Forces and the Americans no longer hold that. They did eventually constitute over 3/4's of the Army, but the Soviets by far had the largest Army "liberating" occupied countries.

In the first "Liberation", the US provided barely a quarter of the total troops available to the Allies, and that is using the 4,000,000 men they (planned) to hae in arms, of which the bulk were in the United States training to be deployed by 1919. They made up a small amount of the Armies fighting in France in 1918, sure, their divisions were massive (28,000 men to 4-3,000 in a German and 6-8,000 in a British or French one), but not many were deployed in active combat. And not even all the ones in France were fighting, and equally large amount were still undergoing the raining Pershing had (rightly) made them go through, sitting in queit sectors and training in mock Western Fronts behind the Front. During World War I, the French had deployed 8,410,000 men in it's Army (through the whole war), Britain a slightly smaller number (8,904,467, of which not all went to the Western Front, hence the reason for the smaller number even though more deployed), the US, can say it had about 1,000,000 (a very liberal estimate, since I'm counting troops who trained in quiet sectors) who actively participated in some sort of combat.



...infact, the only nation to fully pay us back what they owed us was Finland (props for that Finland... :p)...not that we're asking Britian, France, Germany, et al, to pay us back or anything......

Actually, we did ask them to pay us back after World War II, according to Lend Lease, not all was expected to be paid back, and post-war it was decided 70% of the balance was not to be paid back. So far every country that received lend lease has paid us back (except the Soviet Union, they never fully agreed on a payment method, and it's moot now). As a matter of fact, Britain has a sum of money set aside in it's budget this year to be paid to the United States Government, it is the last Lend Lease Payment the British will ever have to give becuase it is all they owe (they were the largest receivers of Lend Lease, over 31 billion USD)

Yes, the French intervened in the American Revolution, but by the time they got here, it was far too late for them to make much of a difference, soldier-wise. Their biggest help to us was money, gun powder, artillary, and muskets. The majority of French troops that were in America, could be found sitting in American pubs, drinking American ale, and chasing American women. They finally got their act together at Yorktown by cutting off Charles Cornwallis' retreat route.

Me!

Err.... Armies are kind of hard to use if they don't have guns, powder, and artillery. Not to mention the French demanded almost no payment, which is good since we had no money to pay them with. And the French at yorktown were decisive, that's like saying the US finally got it's act together with Overlord, just becuase it's late doesn't make it not important. The French constituted half of Washington's command at Yorktown, and had the British fleet evacuated Yorktown, they could have landed in New York to supplement the large British Garrison there and go straight through the meager defenses Washington left to romp around, or they could've went South and landed in the Carolinas again. Greene had destroyed most transportation across the network of rivers during his retreat to slow Cornwallis' pursuit, so getting back down to the south would be exceedingly hard, by which time the fragile alliance of states would've probably broken up.