NationStates Jolt Archive

Seeing how the Bush administration has already sacrificed certain rights, and thus limited the freedom of the citizen, and tried to justify its actions by claiming that it would ensure greater safety for the people leaves me wondering what you guys think of this.

How much freedom are you willing to sacrifice in order to ensure your safety or that of others? Is there are a limit as to how far you'd go in sacrificing one or the other? And what does that limit look like?

"Live free or die."

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

--Ben Franklin

Tell one freedom you have lost.

obviously not the freedom to be stupid.. :D

Tell one freedom you have lost.
It isn't a matter of what I personally have lost.

It's the principle that once the government starts taking away freedoms from any group of people, it threatens mine. Once Muslims and men from the Middle East start getting arrested without charge and held without bail, lawyers, or a trial, it imperils my right to due process.

Tell one freedom you have lost.

Only one? lol

How about the freedom to go to the library and check out any book you like without the goverment putting it on record?

How about the legal freedom that always allows you the right to legal counsil?

How about being free from a goverment that can lock you up without having to justify the arrest in the court of law within a set and reasonable time frame?

Jeez, where have you been the last few years?

Tell one freedom you have lost.

You suddenly find yourself a "suspected" terrorist. Government ships you off to Guantanemo to hold you indefinately with no access to the courts or a lawyer. From my understanding, thats bascially what could happen.

Tell one freedom you have lost.

How about the Fourth Amendment:

http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/2953483/detail.html
It's a groundbreaking court decision that legal experts say will affect everyone: Police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief search of your home or business.

Leaders in law enforcement say it will keep officers safe, but others argue it's a privilege that could be abused.

The decision in United States v. Kelly Gould, No. 0230629cr0, was made March 24 by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

We have neither freedom nor safety in a hierarchial society.

I have lost some of my freedoms? Which ones I have to ask? I hold my freedoms dear and if one has been taken from me I will have to fight someone....so which one or ones have been snatched from me?

I'm willing to let some of my rights restricted for security. Rights like
- Freedom of mobility if found I broke the law. (Ie. I agree with jail).
- Right to bear arms. I am for gun control. I don'T see why I should be able to buy an assault rifle for "protection"

Some rights I'm will fight tooth and nail to keep:
- Freedom of speach.
- Freedom of association.
- Right to privacy.
- Right to due process.

I'm willing to let some of my rights restricted for security. Rights like
- Freedom of mobility if found I broke the law. (Ie. I agree with jail).
- Right to bear arms. I am for gun control. I don'T see why I should be able to buy an assault rifle for "protection"

Some rights I'm will fight tooth and nail to keep:
- Freedom of speach.
- Freedom of association.
- Right to privacy.
- Right to due process.

Without the first two....the rest won't exist. I am not a gun nut (don't even own one) but the right to have one should be absolute.

obviously not the freedom to be stupid.. :D

Obviously not the freedom to be ignorant... :D

I have lost some of my freedoms? Which ones I have to ask? I hold my freedoms dear and if one has been taken from me I will have to fight someone....so which one or ones have been snatched from me?

Try reading five posts up.

It's called the 4th Amendment, perhaps you've heard of it?

I'm willing to let some of my rights restricted for security. Rights like
- Freedom of mobility if found I broke the law. (Ie. I agree with jail).
- Right to bear arms. I am for gun control. I don'T see why I should be able to buy an assault rifle for "protection"

Some rights I'm will fight tooth and nail to keep:
- Freedom of speach.
- Freedom of association.
- Right to privacy.
- Right to due process.

well, good luck fighting tyranny with your teeth and nails...
I'll be using an assault rifle.

Tell one freedom you have lost.

The freedom to carry a pair of nail scissors onto a commercial airline.

Without the first two....the rest won't exist. I am not a gun nut (don't even own one) but the right to have one should be absolute.
I am talking about restrictions. I'm not saying we should ban weapons, but do you honestly need 12 hunting rifle?

You suddenly find yourself a "suspected" terrorist. Government ships you off to Guantanemo to hold you indefinately with no access to the courts or a lawyer. From my understanding, thats bascially what could happen.

we got that right back, the supreme court ruled last month that they cant hold a US citizen indefinitely without charges, trials or access to a lawyer.

i dont know if that covers the non us citizens at guantanamo

well, good luck fighting tyranny with your teeth and nails...
I'll be using an assault rifle.

I'll be using my brain and democracy. Those things are meant and can be used to stop wars like this.

The freedom to carry a pair of nail scissors onto a commercial airline.
I know! I liked being able to cut my nails instead of biting them... That hurts and it isn't good for my nails.

I'll be using my brain and democracy. Those things are meant and can be used to stop wars like this.
wars like what?
He said fighting against tyranny....I could've been misinterpreting, but I didn't think Iraqi tyranny

Besides, I don't think your words will stop the "war on terror" if that's what you're referring to...though they will probably get you shot...

I personally agree with Mr. Franklin. I'm not willing to sacrifice freedom for safety. I believe in using freedom for safety. Taking away freedoms only stops the good law-abiding people! So we're all left without our nail clippers when someone comes aboard our plane with a shoe bomb

Also, I don't think the government should be able to hold a US citizen for ANY period of time without charges

Also, I don't think the government should be able to hold a US citizen for ANY period of time without charges
OF course they shouldn't, but they do!

And all credit goes to the Patriot Act.

wars like what?
He said fighting against tyranny....I could've been misinterpreting, but I didn't think Iraqi tyranny

Besides, I don't think your words will stop the "war on terror" if that's what you're referring to...though they will probably get you shot...

I personally agree with Mr. Franklin. I'm not willing to sacrifice freedom for safety. I believe in using freedom for safety. Taking away freedoms only stops the good law-abiding people! So we're all left without our nail clippers when someone comes aboard our plane with a shoe bomb

Also, I don't think the government should be able to hold a US citizen for ANY period of time without charges

I wasn't refering to the Iraq war or the war on terror. I was refering to tyranny in the US (not that I'm saying there is). And I was guessing whoever mentioned that they'd "fight tyrrany with an assult rifle" meant in the US as it was refering to the US constitution and the right to own a gun.

I wasn't refering to the Iraq war or the war on terror. I was refering to tyranny in the US (not that I'm saying there is). And I was guessing whoever mentioned that they'd "fight tyrrany with an assult rifle" meant in the US as it was refering to the US constitution and the right to own a gun.
alright then, at least we're on the same page

though I don't think tyranny at home is solved without guns
sure, you need the words too...but you won't get far on words alone...

Try reading five posts up.

It's called the 4th Amendment, perhaps you've heard of it?

Yeah, I don't much like that.

Well it's a fallacy, anyway. People will sacrifice freedoms for the PERCEPTION of safety, but how much of a guarantee is safety coming from the government? There are limits to the powers of government. There are too many ways to deal out death, if you're looking to do that sort of thing (i.e you're a terrorist). You can't prevent everything from happening and create the perfect bubble-world.

It's the stupid cult of "safety" that pisses me off. People who think that somehow what we're doing in Iraq will lead directly to every US citizen being somehow 'safe.' Delusions, I tell you. Or people who think speed limits on freeways keep people safe. Oh yeah, real safe. You have a greater chance of dying by automobile than terrorist.

Yeah, I don't much like that.
*in responce to my post about the loss of the 4th amendment

Are you saying that you don't like the 4th amendment, or the fact that I no longer have it in Texas?




I'll be using my brain and democracy. Those things are meant and can be used to stop wars like this.
*in response to my comment on the use of assault weapons to prevent tyranny

Hey, I'm with you and I really hope it all works out peaceably... But when HOMELAND SECURITY starts arresting protestors on the street and charging them with terrorism it would be nice to have a plan B.

What is the bigger threat to your life and liberty? (a) terrorists (b) the govt?

Giving up freedoms (as if you have a choice!) doesn't make you safer, it puts you at even greater risk.

I heard that there are quite a lot democracies with very restrictive gun laws. But surely they will fall into tyranny any moment, right?
Even worse, i am living in one! Should i sharpen my knives in case the Gestapo shows up? Oops, the door bell rung... Oh shit, aaargh.... (if only i would have gone for easier gun laws...)
:headbang: