NationStates Jolt Archive

Is any one worried about how the election in 2004 could end up being another 2000? I sure do.

Computerized voting systems that can be rigged by corporate or local-election insiders. Some 98 million citizens, five out of every six of the roughly 115 million who will go to the polls, will consign their votes into computers that unidentified computer programmers, working in the main for four private corporations and the officials of 10,500 election jurisdictions, could program to invisibly falsify the outcomes.

Read More (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)

I read a huge article about this in The Humanist and it has me pretty worried so I think I will just burn some buildings about it

Is any one worried about how the election in 2004 could end up being another 2000? I sure do.



Read More (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)
seems like they could have copies of the votes sent directly to the major parties so that no one can claim votes that they don't deserve
I'd put money down that this election will make the controversy of 2000 look like .... something that isn't all that controversial

I don't know why you folks in the US don't go back to pencils and paper like we use in the UK elections. It may be primitive but it cuts out fraud of this sort.

I don't know why you folks in the US don't go back to pencils and paper like we use in the UK elections. It may be primitive but it cuts out fraud of this sort.

Couldn't ballot box stuffing happen?

conclusion: democracy doesn't work on large countries like the United Kingdom, the United States, or China.

In Canada it's paper and pencil and I can't ever recall a disputed election, keeping in mind that Canada only has about 35 million people, but still.

Is any one worried about how the election in 2004 could end up being another 2000? I sure do.



Read More (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)
The voters should insist on paper ballots. That would stop most of the fraud?

"How could they Steal the Election This Time?"

Like this (http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/cord/cord_9005.html)?

But seriously, I do not trust these new computers, or the company that makes them. And I think that the security of them need to be redone.

In Canada it's paper and pencil and I can't ever recall a disputed election, keeping in mind that Canada only has about 35 million people, but still.
And the results are fairly quick, and accurate. Not many recounts result in an overturned decision. Also there is usually scrutineers for all the major parties when the ballots are counted.

"How could they Steal the Election This Time?"

Like this (http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/cord/cord_9005.html)?

But seriously, I do not trust these new computers, or the company that makes them. And I think that the security of them need to be redone.

Hahaha I love Jon Stewart... that was great.

I know if I was the Americans I would be rioting in the streets for a paper trail. I mean lets face it, the company that these computer election machines come from "Diebold" the owner has been quoted as saying "I will do any thing to get Bush elected" that has to scare the shit out of you unless of course you want Bush to win.. :sniper:

All I'm really saying is this, first time shame on them, second time shame on you. Get pissed about it. Sitting around doing nothing about it.. well.. ya know.

This is your very democracy.. even if you do want Bush to win, do you want him to win by subverting democracy and the will of the people? If you have an ounce of integrity, I suspect not. What do you stand for? Because when you don't stand for some thing, you stand for nothing!

All I'm really saying is this, first time shame on them, second time shame on you. Get pissed about it. Sitting around doing nothing about it.. well.. ya know.

This is your very democracy.. even if you do want Bush to win, do you want him to win by subverting democracy and the will of the people? If you have an ounce of integrity, I suspect not. What do you stand for? Because when you don't stand for some thing, you stand for nothing!

What happens if Kerry wins using the computer system? All fine and above board I suppose?

What happens if Kerry wins using the computer system? All fine and above board I suppose?

I can't answer for Stephistan, but personally speaking, I wouldn't want the candidate I supported to win by any means other than legitimate ones.

What happens if Kerry wins using the computer system? All fine and above board I suppose?
it's fine if Kerry wins with the computer system
not if he wins because of the computer system
and the machine-makers aren't avid Kerry supporters, so the chance we have to worry about that is significantly smaller

I can't answer for Stephistan, but personally speaking, I wouldn't want the candidate I supported to win by any means other than legitimate ones.

I think you missed the point. If Bush wins it will be fraud and a faulty computer system. If Kerry wins the computers were fine and it was 100% legitimate. You can tell because the only person mentioned as winning due to an inept voting system is Bush.

Hahaha I love Jon Stewart... that was great.

I know if I was the Americans I would be rioting in the streets for a paper trail. I mean lets face it, the company that these computer election machines come from "Diebold" the owner has been quoted as saying "I will do any thing to get Bush elected" that has to scare the shit out of you unless of course you want Bush to win.. :sniper:

"It is not how the votes are cast, but how they are counted."

What happens if Kerry wins using the computer system? All fine and above board I suppose?

Yes, unless the Diebold boss said "I would do anything for Kerry to win"

I can't answer for Stephistan, but personally speaking, I wouldn't want the candidate I supported to win by any means other than legitimate ones.

Actually you did just answer for me.. thanks :)

If Kerry wins using the computer system, then I'll probably think that a rogue hacker out-hacked the corporate hackers.

I think you missed the point. If Bush wins it will be fraud and a faulty computer system. If Kerry wins the computers were fine and it was 100% legitimate. You can tell because the only person mentioned as winning due to an inept voting system is Bush.
If that's not an incentive to provide a paper trail, I don't know what is.

it's fine if Kerry wins with the computer system
not if he wins because of the computer system
and the machine-makers aren't avid Kerry supporters, so the chance we have to worry about that is significantly smaller

Yes, what better way to get a contract for supplying computers for elections in years to come than by setting loose the evil Bush-loving computers on the world..MWAHAHAHA!!! Do you people even read the stuff you post? You could right the scripts for cartoon villians with some of the stuff you come up with.

If that's not an incentive to provide a paper trail, I don't know what is.

We have a paper system here in 3rd world Australia. Works just fine too along with compulsory voting. However, that was not the point I was arguing. The point I was arguing was the fact that people are assuming the only possible reason Bush would win is by evil and inept computer systems.

Yes, what better way to get a contract for supplying computers for elections in years to come than by setting loose the evil Bush-loving computers on the world..MWAHAHAHA!!! Do you people even read the stuff you post? You could right the scripts for cartoon villians with some of the stuff you come up with.
I don't think that he is saying that Bush engineered this contract. Really point isn't worth debating.

However if the company happens to overtly support one candidate over the other, I think it is natural for a few questions to be asked.

We have a paper system here in 3rd world Australia. Works just fine too along with compulsory voting. However, that was not the point I was arguing. The point I was arguing was the fact that people are assuming the only possible reason Bush would win is by evil and inept computer systems.
I am not denying that Bush could win legitimately.

However this electronic voting thing is a cause for concern.

We have a paper system here in 3rd world Australia. Works just fine too along with compulsory voting. However, that was not the point I was arguing. The point I was arguing was the fact that people are assuming the only possible reason Bush would win is by evil and inept computer systems.


or because of evil and/or inept people.

I don't know why anyone in their right...err...correct mind would vote for Bush.

I don't think that he is saying that Bush engineered this contract. Really point isn't worth debating.

However if the company happens to overtly support one candidate over the other, I think it is natural for a few questions to be asked.

So you can only buy stuff from politically neutral sources now? We really are struggling for conspiracies now.

or because of evil and/or inept people.

I don't know why anyone in their right...err...correct mind would vote for Bush.

Thats your opinion! Lucky you don't make computers or Bush would be doomed.

conclusion: democracy doesn't work on large countries like the United Kingdom, the United States, or China.

It tried to work on me once but i punched it.

Thats your opinion! Lucky you don't make computers or Bush would be doomed.

Yes, it's my opinion. Still, it's very hard to find someone who can give me a straight answer on why, based on his record, anyone would vote for Bush

Thats what it all comes down to, on his record, why WOULD somebody choose to vote for, arguably, the worst President ever.

So you can only buy stuff from politically neutral sources now? We really are struggling for conspiracies now.
The company supplying the means to collect the votes and to count them, should very much be politically neutral. Its a shame anyway that the economy has so much to say in politics. Economics is always anti-human and pro-money, which scares me a lot. If you want to know why, read Jennifer Government by Max Barry.

Btw here's the summary of my nation:

The Dominion of Gigatron is a huge, socially progressive nation, renowned for its strong anti-business politics. Its compassionate population of 280 million are fiercely patriotic and enjoy great social equality; they tend to view other, more capitalist countries as somewhat immoral and corrupt.

It is difficult to tell where the omnipresent, socially-minded government stops and the rest of society begins, but it is mainly concerned with Social Welfare, although the Environment and Healthcare are secondary priorities. The average income tax rate is 100%. The private sector is almost wholly made up of enterprising fourteen-year-old boys selling lemonade on the sidewalk, although the government is looking at stamping this out.

The liberated Somali Cat is a protected species, all alcohol is banned, there have been a series of riots between local cannibals and health food advocates, and Max Barry is this year's Miss Gigatron. Crime is totally unknown. Gigatron's national animal is the liberated Somali Cat, which frolics freely in the nation's many lush forests, and its currency is the Euro.

Gigatron is ranked 6923rd in the region and 101,223rd in the world for Largest Manufacturing Sector.

Yes, it's my opinion. Still, it's very hard to find someone who can give me a straight answer on why, based on his record, anyone would vote for Bush

Can't help you there, I'm not American. But I am sure there are equally one-eyed Bush supporters who say the same thing about Kerry. Except they probably don't go as far as suggesting the release of rogue Bush-loving computers for the elections.

The company supplying the means to collect the votes and to count them, should very much be politically neutral.

Yes, well we don't live in the land of milk and honey.

As I said, I can really see the computer company making the computers saying at their board meeting. "Hey, screw the potential earnings from a regular contract for election vote counting, lets make a computer system that gets my friend George Dubbya over the line" To which the shareholders unanimously agree "Yes, screw our share prices, lets bankrupt our company for George !!!"

Errr...maybe not.

Btw here's the summary of my nation:

The Dominion of Gigatron is a huge, socially progressive nation, renowned for its strong anti-business politics. Its compassionate population of 280 million are fiercely patriotic and enjoy great social equality; they tend to view other, more capitalist countries as somewhat immoral and corrupt.

It is difficult to tell where the omnipresent, socially-minded government stops and the rest of society begins, but it is mainly concerned with Social Welfare, although the Environment and Healthcare are secondary priorities. The average income tax rate is 100%. The private sector is almost wholly made up of enterprising fourteen-year-old boys selling lemonade on the sidewalk, although the government is looking at stamping this out.

The liberated Somali Cat is a protected species, all alcohol is banned, there have been a series of riots between local cannibals and health food advocates, and Max Barry is this year's Miss Gigatron. Crime is totally unknown. Gigatron's national animal is the liberated Somali Cat, which frolics freely in the nation's many lush forests, and its currency is the Euro.

Gigatron is ranked 6923rd in the region and 101,223rd in the world for Largest Manufacturing Sector.

Ummm..thanks for that.
:confused:

Ummm..thanks for that.
:confused:
Should explain why I say here what I say. The US are the opposite of my dream nation :)

Can't help you there, I'm not American. But I am sure there are equally one-eyed Bush supporters who say the same thing about Kerry. Except they probably don't go as far as suggesting the release of rogue Bush-loving computers for the elections.

I would love to be even-handed when dealing with Bush, but in the utter vacuum of good reasons to vote for him, I find myself unable to do that.

ANyone have a good reason to vote for Bush? Anyone?

Should explain why I say here what I say. The US are the opposite of my dream nation :)

No..surely you jest? ;)

I would love to be even-handed when dealing with Bush, but in the utter vacuum of good reasons to vote for him, I find myself unable to do that.

ANyone have a good reason to vote for Bush? Anyone?

The vacuum emanates from your complete disinterest in finding any. Obviously a large number of people have found reasons because he is the President and this election looks to be a close one at this point in time.

Personally I know a few people who work for Diebold, real nice folks. As for the president of Diebold shooting off at the mouth saying he'd do anything to get Bush to win. I doubt he'd try and rig the computers or have his company rig the computers, because of a few reasons. One to many people are going to be watching and you might be able to fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but with a few million people watching over the computers (and the companies that supplied them's back) I'm pretty certain not all of them will get fooled. And if they did get caught first of all Diebold and kiss it's lovely corporate butt goodbye, but you know somepeople (more then likely including the man that shot off at the mouth about bush winning) will get strung up in a very permanent and very leathel manner. Second of all is reputation, Diebold can't afford to do everything in it's power to make certain the computers are completely accurate and fair and stay that way. If they let anything happen to those computers and the vote ballets, thier rep is shot and they'll go under in a heartbeat. Now I must admit I am worried about electorial fruad, but not with the computers. I'm more worried about the members of the electorial colleges getting bribed or ballet box stuffing (cause lets face it man has had alot more practice stuffing boxes then hacking computers). Oh and if anyone wants to know(which I doubt you do) as of right now I'm voting for kerry.

If Kerry wins using the computer system, then I'll probably think that a rogue hacker out-hacked the corporate hackers.

Bush camp representative: There's obviously something terribly wrong with the systems.
Reporter: Isn't that just sour grapes?
Bush camp representative: No it is not. We know they aren't working because the systems were supposed to give /us/ the 75% majority... er.... *cough*... are we live? No? Good. Can we try that one again? I believe there's better light over here in this secluded corner. <signals desperately to nearest Secret Service men>

Should explain why I say here what I say. The US are the opposite of my dream nation :)

Sounds like a terrible place to live....no alcohol, 100% tax. Why would anyone bother working? With a huge social welfare system I think that answers my question...noone does.

Bush camp representative: There's obviously something terribly wrong with the systems.
Reporter: Isn't that just sour grapes?
Bush camp representative: No it is not. We know they aren't working because the systems were supposed to give /us/ the 75% majority... er.... *cough*... are we live? No? Good. Can we try that one again? I believe there's better light over here in this secluded corner. <signals desperately to nearest Secret Service men>

Did you repost that from an email by any chance?

Did you repost that from an email by any chance?

Actually no. Made up on the spot just now. Why, is there something similar out there? Wouldn't be surprised, though, it's an obvious idea.

You know what they say: "Great minds think alike."

(And fools rarely differ... :) )

Sounds like a terrible place to live....no alcohol, 100% tax. Why would anyone bother working? With a huge social welfare system I think that answers my question...noone does.
The people of my nation live as a dominion, a hive where working for individual profit has been removed. The entire population of Gigatron works for the good of the nation, where all individuals get a fair share of the cake. If someone does not work, he does not get as much a share as those who do work, but we dont hand millions of Euros to CEOs and the like, who do much less work than other citizens and thus dont even deserve these amounts.

The people are happy, we have no crime, no need for a large military, no corporations abusing our people... There's nothing better I could think of. If all of mankind would function like this, earth would be a much much better place and we'd achieve progress for the good of mankind much faster and easier due to lack of monetary profit involved.

Yes, what better way to get a contract for supplying computers for elections in years to come than by setting loose the evil Bush-loving computers on the world..MWAHAHAHA!!! Do you people even read the stuff you post? You could right the scripts for cartoon villians with some of the stuff you come up with.
ummm...I said machine-makers. As in the president of Diebold
The machines themselves probably don't care, as long as the election goes according to their code
whether that's kerry=kerry & bush=bush
or
<if voter#==7 then vote=bush>

The people of my nation live as a dominion, a hive where working for individual profit has been removed. The entire population of Gigatron works for the good of the nation, where all individuals get a fair share of the cake. If someone does not work, he does not get as much a share as those who do work, but we dont hand millions of Euros to CEOs and the like, who do much less work than other citizens and thus dont even deserve these amounts.

The people are happy, we have no crime, no need for a large military, no corporations abusing our people... There's nothing better I could think of. If all of mankind would function like this, earth would be a much much better place and we'd achieve progress for the good of mankind much faster and easier due to lack of monetary profit involved.

Wow, you have devolved into ants...

So you can only buy stuff from politically neutral sources now? We really are struggling for conspiracies now.
There is a difference between buying voting machines from somebody who will vote for GWB, and buying them from someone who has said "I will do any thing to get Bush elected."

So you can only buy stuff from politically neutral sources now? We really are struggling for conspiracies now.
This is a good point...but if only some device existed, which could somehow....move the votes on the computer screen onto a slip of paper...which could then be counted in case of concern
you know like, if somehow all the computers in one voting area were malfunctioning and didn't send the votes in
hmm...this printing device would be magical! Someone should invent one right now!
seriously, there's no reason not to print a copy "just in case"

ummm...I said machine-makers. As in the president of Diebold
The machines themselves probably don't care, as long as the election goes according to their code
whether that's kerry=kerry & bush=bush
or
<if voter#==7 then vote=bush>

Same theory, deliberately releasing faulty computers to rig the result. But at the last minute Kerry shrugs free of his bindings just before the evil death ray cuts him in two and reprograms the computers and coasts to victory.

Bush and the computer company chiefs are led away by the police cursing those meddling kids....

Wow, you have devolved into ants...
Ants are effective. Their states are working fine. Alas, our state functions differently. Ants have a monarchy with one queen controlling the nation. In Gigatron, we've technologically advanced to the point where all people are connected to form a collective intelligence, which enables us to make decisions based on the will of the majority, within very short time.

There is a difference between buying voting machines from somebody who will vote for GWB, and buying them from someone who has said "I will do any thing to get Bush elected."

As I said, why would he ruin a potential contract not only for the US but overseas for the sake of getting George another term?

Ants are effective. Their states are working fine. Alas, our state functions differently. Ants have a monarchy with one queen controlling the nation. In Gigatron, we've technologically advanced to the point where all people are connected to form a collective intelligence, which enables us to make decisions based on the will of the majority, within very short time.


Being a mindless drone is not something I aspire to so I'll just stick to where I'm at.

Just out of interest Tygaland, do you practice talking crap, or does it just come naturally?

Notice how all the Americans are against their president, and you're defending him? Doesn't that tell you something? And as to you're mockery of suggestions that the computers might be used to rig votes, I can only ask how you can trust completely and totally a system built by people who outwardly support one candidate, who won a previous election by very dodgy means.

And how is becoming more similar to ants necessarily devolving? There is less death and destruction and, because we can strive single mindedly towards improvement, life expectancy should sky rocket. How terrible. How very terrible.

As I said, why would he ruin a potential contract not only for the US but overseas for the sake of getting George another term?
I don't know.

I don't even know if he will swing the election, I doubt it.

His political affiliations could easily be nullified by putting a printer onto the machine, which is what I think should be done.

However, a lack of a paper trail and an overt support for one candidate should raise suspicions, no?

Being a mindless drone is not something I aspire to so I'll just stick to where I'm at.
People in Gigatron are not mindless drones. Everyone is part of the greater body forming our nation. Everybody has his own mind and the ability to affect things. Technology has allowed us to jump over the past shadows of selfish existence, which mankind has plagued for thousands of years, which caused wars and hindered progress. Our government system is, in fact, superior to anything else currently in existence elsewhere as it brings out the best abilities of all of our citizens, without pressuring them into a certain role. Due to that, arts and free thinking hold very high value among our citizens. The evolution of the human mind, which has allowed us to connect us all to one intelligence, with the help of technology, has been the greatest gift to us.

Listen, it boils down to this, most if not all states have laws regarding recounts in disputed states. If there is no paper trail, it's impossible to do a recount. I would argue, yes argue right to the freaking Supreme Court, that without a paper trail it would essentially violate most state laws. No paper trail equals no recount. Which is a law in most states. I would challenge it under said laws, state by state. All states have laws regarding recounts .. think about it... are these machines that leave no paper trail equally no possible means of recount even legal? Some thing to seriously ponder.

Just out of interest Tygaland, do you practice talking crap, or does it just come naturally?

Notice how all the Americans are against their president, and you're defending him? Doesn't that tell you something? And as to you're mockery of suggestions that the computers might be used to rig votes, I can only ask how you can trust completely and totally a system built by people who outwardly support one candidate, who won a previous election by very dodgy means.

And how is becoming more similar to ants necessarily devolving? There is less death and destruction and, because we can strive single mindedly towards improvement, life expectancy should sky rocket. How terrible. How very terrible.

I am bilingual..English and crap. Fluent in both.

But now I will repond to your crap. All Americans are against their president. I would love to see your source quoting a 0% approval rating for Bush.
Anyway, I haven't defended Bush, I have stated that it is a long bow to draw to automatically assume a Bush victory is the result of a faulty computer based voting system constructed by a Bush supporter. I am saying it is a desperate grasp for any semblance of a conspiracy. If the computers were built by a supporter of Kerry would you be equally as concerned?

Becoming "more similar" to ants is devolving in my opinion. You see, I speak for myself. Personally, I do not want to be part of a collective of drones. It might be your idea of paradise but it certainly isn't mine. I like individual thought, the ability to aspire to something better. You may be happy to work your life away for nothing but thats not my idea of a life. Good luck in your aims to become a mindless insect!

I don't know.

I don't even know if he will swing the election, I doubt it.

His political affiliations could easily be nullified by putting a printer onto the machine, which is what I think should be done.

However, a lack of a paper trail and an overt support for one candidate should raise suspicions, no?

You can be suspicious all you like, its your prerogative. But I think it is paranoia at its worst, but that my opinion. You are welcome to yours. But I am just bracing myself for 400 threads moaning about half-baked conspiracies should GWB win another term.

Anyway, I haven't defended Bush, I have stated that it is a long bow to draw to automatically assume a Bush victory is the result of a faulty computer based voting system constructed by a Bush supporter. I am saying it is a desperate grasp for any semblance of a conspiracy. If the computers were built by a supporter of Kerry would you be equally as concerned?
If the boss said something along the lines of "I will do anything to make Kerry win," and if the computer left no paper trail. Then yes I would.

People in Gigatron are not mindless drones. Everyone is part of the greater body forming our nation. Everybody has his own mind and the ability to affect things. Technology has allowed us to jump over the past shadows of selfish existence, which mankind has plagued for thousands of years, which caused wars and hindered progress. Our government system is, in fact, superior to anything else currently in existence elsewhere as it brings out the best abilities of all of our citizens, without pressuring them into a certain role. Due to that, arts and free thinking hold very high value among our citizens. The evolution of the human mind, which has allowed us to connect us all to one intelligence, with the help of technology, has been the greatest gift to us.


Once you lose individuality you are a drone.

Listen, it boils down to this, most if not all states have laws regarding recounts in disputed states. If there is no paper trail, it's impossible to do a recount. I would argue, yes argue right to the freaking Supreme Court, that without a paper trail it would essentially violate most state laws. No paper trail equals no recount. Which is a law in most states. I would challenge it under said laws, state by state. All states have laws regarding recounts .. think about it... are these machines that leave no paper trail equally no possible means of recount even legal? Some thing to seriously ponder.

Pay attention for hecks sake!

Anyway, I haven't defended Bush, I have stated that it is a long bow to draw to automatically assume a Bush victory is the result of a faulty computer based voting system constructed by a Bush supporter. I am saying it is a desperate grasp for any semblance of a conspiracy. If the computers were built by a supporter of Kerry would you be equally as concerned?

Yes....I dislike Kerry almost as much as I do Bush

but I can't speak for others

I think, for one, they'd find it unlikely that Kerry would cheat, when many suspect that Bush would

If the boss said something along the lines of "I will do anything to make Kerry win," and if the computer left no paper trail. Then yes I would.

Then you are a prime candidate for an ulcer. With all that worrying about "what ifs", "maybes" and "probably nots".

Becoming "more similar" to ants is devolving in my opinion. You see, I speak for myself. Personally, I do not want to be part of a collective of drones. It might be your idea of paradise but it certainly isn't mine. I like individual thought, the ability to aspire to something better. You may be happy to work your life away for nothing but thats not my idea of a life. Good luck in your aims to become a mindless insect!
You don't listen and you still suffer from selfishness and ignorance of the better ways to live. Your life, as individual, is meaningless in the universe. The collective lives of Gigatron's citizens have brought forth great advancements in technology and culture, such as the telepathy device, enabling us to speak to each other over long distances, without requiring technology for that.

All our citizens remain individual human beings, but all of us have overcome the selfish need to pile riches and useless belongings, which will be meaningless once the individual dies. For our society, the greatest thing is, to produce technology which advances our culture and civiliaztion to eventually reach the core of the universe, where we hope to find our creator. The ultimate goal for us is, to eventually become gods ourselves, nature permitting, we will overcome our physical limitation and eventually cease to exist bound to this reality and dimension.

You can be suspicious all you like, its your prerogative. But I think it is paranoia at its worst, but that my opinion. You are welcome to yours. But I am just bracing myself for 400 threads moaning about half-baked conspiracies should GWB win another term.
It isn't paranoia. I think it is a legitamate concern. That machines built by someone who has said he will do anything to make GWB win do not leave a paper trail. Put in the paper trial, then he could say anything and my I will claim any foul play. Is it really too much to ask for?

I am not a conspiracy theorist, I don't believe in any right-wing conspiracy or any crap like that.

Yes....I dislike Kerry almost as much as I do Bush

but I can't speak for others

I think, for one, they'd find it unlikely that Kerry would cheat, when many suspect that Bush would

Of course, Kerry is holier than thou.

You don't listen and you still suffer from selfishness and ignorance of the better ways to live. Your life, as individual, is meaningless in the universe. The collective lives of Gigatron's citizens have brought forth great advancements in technology and culture, such as the telepathy device, enabling us to speak to each other over long distances, without requiring technology for that.

All our citizens remain individual human beings, but all of us have overcome the selfish need to pile riches and useless belongings, which will be meaningless once the individual dies. For our society, the greatest thing is, to produce technology which advances our culture and civiliaztion to eventually reach the core of the universe, where we hope to find our creator. The ultimate goal for us is, to eventually become gods ourselves, nature permitting, we will overcome our physical limitation and eventually cease to exist bound to this reality and dimension.

Why am I getting this eerie feeling you are trying to get me to join a cult?

Well, I do think there's too much emphasis on merely making money. I wish people took more pride in simply making something great/achieving something.

If any one takes the time to actually read my post... they may find a way out of this.. I believe under states law.. these machines that don't leave a paper trail that gives you a chance at a recount violates most if not all state laws.. read up!

Listen, it boils down to this, most if not all states have laws regarding recounts in disputed states. If there is no paper trail, it's impossible to do a recount. I would argue, yes argue right to the freaking Supreme Court, that without a paper trail it would essentially violate most state laws. No paper trail equals no recount. Which is a law in most states. I would challenge it under said laws, state by state. All states have laws regarding recounts .. think about it... are these machines that leave no paper trail equally no possible means of recount even legal? Some thing to seriously ponder.

I agree. So why didn't you make this the topic of discussion instead of some half-baked conspiracy theory?

I have not argued in support of the computer system, just against a very weak conspiracy theory.

I agree. So why didn't you make this the topic of discussion instead of some half-baked conspiracy theory?

I have not argued in support of the computer system, just against a very weak conspiracy theory.

Umm I've been up all night and drinking, does that work for ya,...lol :cool:

Well, I do think there's too much emphasis on merely making money. I wish people took more pride in simply making something great/achieving something.

Most people do aim to achieve something in life. Some make millions, others don't. It does not make their life less important. What makes life important is achieving what you set out to achieve in regards to both work and family/relationships.
If someone makes millions, good luck to them. I do not judge my happiness and worth against others,I judge my happiness and worth only against my goals.

Umm I've been up all night and drinking, does that work for ya,...lol :cool:

Sounds like a reasonable excuse to me! :p

Why am I getting this eerie feeling you are trying to get me to join a cult?
Gigatron and our civilization is not a cult. You would not fit among our people so why would we want to have you? The first and foremost requirement for our citizens to be a useful member of society is, that they must distance themselves from selfishness and greed. No individual in our society can have more material posession than another, greed and selfishness breeds jealousy and hatred, which are the prime "enemies" of civilizations and progress.

You may feel happy in your country because you did not experience the benefits of our system yet. It is up to your own nation to eventually reach that point of evolution. We cannot help you with that, unless you reach it yourself. The realization that all individuals are ultimately equal and nobody deserves more than another for whatever reason, will eventually open the path for your nation to function as one.

Sounds like a reasonable excuse to me! :p

And yet completely true..lol :D

And yet completely true..lol :D

Maybe I should start drinking before I come in here... :cool:

Most people do aim to achieve something in life. Some make millions, others don't. It does not make their life less important. What makes life important is achieving what you set out to achieve in regards to both work and family/relationships.
If someone makes millions, good luck to them. I do not judge my happiness and worth against others,I judge my happiness and worth only against my goals.


Oh, I know, I just wish society valued some things that transcend mere money-making a bit more. Take teaching for example. It's not really a profession that produces a lot of money, and yet it has a value much higher than the wage that is paid for doing it.

Oh, I know, I just wish society valued some things that transcend mere money-making a bit more. Take teaching for example. It's not really a profession that produces a lot of money, and yet it has a value much higher than the wage that is paid for doing it.
I couldn't agree with you more.

Maybe I should start drinking before I come in here... :cool:

On that note, I'm going to shower and go to bed, my husband is awake and I suck.. We have two kids.. it's a holiday here in Canada today. Have I ever mentioned I have the world's best husband! Zeppistan, you might of debated with him before.. I'll let him take over if he can get away from the kids..lol

Night, Nite! :)

I have not argued in support of the computer system, just against a very weak conspiracy theory.
Who is putting forward a conspiracy theory?

Listen, it boils down to this, most if not all states have laws regarding recounts in disputed states. If there is no paper trail, it's impossible to do a recount. I would argue, yes argue right to the freaking Supreme Court, that without a paper trail it would essentially violate most state laws. No paper trail equals no recount. Which is a law in most states. I would challenge it under said laws, state by state. All states have laws regarding recounts .. think about it... are these machines that leave no paper trail equally no possible means of recount even legal? Some thing to seriously ponder.

However, before I do.. think about it... ;)

Gigatron and our civilization is not a cult. You would not fit among our people so why would we want to have you? The first and foremost requirement for our citizens to be a useful member of society is, that they must distance themselves from selfishness and greed. No individual in our society can have more material posession than another, greed and selfishness breeds jealousy and hatred, which are the prime "enemies" of civilizations and progress.

You may feel happy in your country because you did not experience the benefits of our system yet. It is up to your own nation to eventually reach that point of evolution. We cannot help you with that, unless you reach it yourself. The realization that all individuals are ultimately equal and nobody deserves more than another for whatever reason, will eventually open the path for your nation to function as one.

Ah communism in its purist form.

Oh, I know, I just wish society valued some things that transcend mere money-making a bit more. Take teaching for example. It's not really a profession that produces a lot of money, and yet it has a value much higher than the wage that is paid for doing it.

True, I decided to leave the industry I worked in to go to one that pays less. I value quality of life over money and always will. Not to mention working in a job i enjoy! But I think the system of Gigatron is taking it to the extreme. People need to express their individuality and any repression of that is abhorent to me.

Who is putting forward a conspiracy theory?

Ummm...read the title of the thread, then work your way through the thread from the beginning.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I definitely think the assigning worth to someone based on their bank balance has had a dehumanizing effect.

People intentionally make inferior products, because they make more money. This is just inherintly wrong.

People, or corporations rather, with more money get a bigger legislative say. Polluting is allowed because it saves money. Dangerous flaws in products are allowed to continue if the cost of settling the lawsuits is less than it costs to make the items right.

Humanity is priceless, money is just numbers.

What's the solution? How do we ween humanity painlessly off it's money addiction? This, of course, is why I don't mind higher taxes, as long as it goes somewhere worthwhile...which is getting less and less likely.

Have I ever mentioned I have the world's best husband! Zeppistan, you might of debated with him before..

You might have mentioned it once or twice, but it is not possible..my wife has the world's best husband! :p

I definitely think the assigning worth to someone based on their bank balance has had a dehumanizing effect.

People intentionally make inferior products, because they make more money. This is just inherintly wrong.

People, or corporations rather, with more money get a bigger legislative say. Polluting is allowed because it saves money. Dangerous flaws in products are allowed to continue if the cost of settling the lawsuits is less than it costs to make the items right.

Humanity is priceless, money is just numbers.

What's the solution? How do we ween humanity painlessly off it's money addiction? This, of course, is why I don't mind higher taxes, as long as it goes somewhere worthwhile...which is getting less and less likely.

If people want to base their worth on money thats there decision and good luck to them. I don't mind paying my fair share of tax but I do not feel I should subsidise people who choose not to work and contribute to society. Placing too much emphasis on welfare is just as damaging as placing too much emphasis on the corporate dollar.

True, I decided to leave the industry I worked in to go to one that pays less. I value quality of life over money and always will. Not to mention working in a job i enjoy! But I think the system of Gigatron is taking it to the extreme. People need to express their individuality and any repression of that is abhorent to me.

absolutely

In the hallowed days of my youth, in the great city of Burlington, VT, my dear and patriotic parents used to take me into the voting booth with them. Once we got inside my mom or dad would pull a big lever, and the curtain would close. On a big board in front of them there was a field of much smaller levers, seperated into seperate zones labeled with the title of the office being voted for. Next to each level was the name of a cantidate for that office.

In state and national elections you would only get to vote for one cantidate, although (not sure if I am recalling VT or a more recent vote) in certain local elections, county borads and such, you might be given a few votes... local laws for those offices and such. Now here's the really wild and revolutionary thing: If you pulled down more little levers in one category than you had vote(s) in that category, the other levers would pop back up and you would have to start over. So if you accidentally voted for, say, Bush instead of Nader, you could pull the lever next to Nader and correct it.

I didn't know about how it worked at the time, but there was a little punch-card in there, taken mechanically from a stack of little punch-cards in there. Once you pulled the big lever back, the curtain would open and the machine would punch a set of perfectly punched computer-readable punches out of that punch-card.

This is the "old voting machine" that we for some inexplicable reason have been phasing out. An anonymous and totally hard paper trail, an all but idiot proof system of correcting mismarked votes, and no chads where they should not be.



This whole issue is the biggest and most disgusting fraud ever perpetrated against the American Democracy and the American people. In the name of "moving into the 21st century" we have, over the last two or three decades, been scrapping the best machine system, the best system, we have ever had for secret yet accountable/recountable voting in favour of butterfly ballots*, black box records, uncorrectable voting and corporate secrecy in the mechanics of the count. Why? Because the old machines required money for upkeep? Don't the new ones, much less the cost of buying them, much less the cost of using them on Democracy?



* (btw, the right to vote cannot be legally denied to the stupid, the easily confused by technology's needs, the elderly, Floridians, and others with poor eyesight or poor reading comprehension)

I read a huge article about this in The Humanist and it has me pretty worried so I think I will just burn some buildings about it

Good! You need to do something!!

Stole the election......thats a good one. :rolleyes:

Stole the election......thats a good one. :rolleyes:

We don't trust your Psychotic Dictator wannabe idol. Deal.

Sounds like a terrible place to live....no alcohol, 100% tax. Why would anyone bother working? With a huge social welfare system I think that answers my question...noone does.

Not only is the description similar to that of my nation, but there are plenty of people who'd want to live in that sort of atmosphere - me for one, plus at least two of my close friends. You really shouldn't assume that everyone is like you - you'll end up being disappointed.

We don't trust your Psychotic Dictator wannabe idol. Deal.

Dictator? Thats a stretch since we have an election coming up. :rolleyes: It is statements like this that destroy any credibility to any argument.

Stole the election......thats a good one. :rolleyes:

wanna hear another one -- the CIA actually smuggled cocaine into the US and sold it on the streets of LA! They used the drug money to fund secret wars in Latin America and Africa. They then arranged to sell weapons to Iran under the condition that they hold American hostages to make President Carter look bad. Then, Admeral Poindexter told Oliver North to lie to congress about the whole thing while under oath! Poindexter was rehired by Bush to start up a program called Total Information Awarness to create a matrix of everyone's medical, financial and library records. Oliver North was hired by Fox News. -- here's another -- in 1962 the pentagon drew-up a plan that was recomended by all the joint-chiefs-of-staff. It was call Operation Northwoods and it involved starting a war with Cuba. One part of the plan called for sinking a US battleship. Another part called for the military to conduct terrorist operations inside the DC or Miami area and blaiming it on Castro. Yet another part detailed a plan to explode an airliner and blame it on Cuba -- wait, there's more -- The day John Hinkley tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan, Neil Bush was scheduled to have dinner with Hinkley's dad. In fact, the Bush's and the Hinkley's were business partners as Hinkley's dad was the CEO of Vanderbuilt Energy and a major Bush contributer -- hillarious isn't it?

wanna hear another one -- the CIA actually smuggled cocaine into the US and sold it on the streets of LA! They used the drug money to fund secret wars in Latin America and Africa. They then arranged to sell weapons to Iran under the condition that they hold American hostages to make President Carter look bad. Then, Admeral Poindexter told Oliver North to lie to congress about the whole thing while under oath! Poindexter was rehired by Bush to start up a program called Total Information Awarness to create a matrix of everyone's medical, financial and library records. Oliver North was hired by Fox News. -- here's another -- in 1962 the pentagon drew-up a plan that was recomended by all the joint-chiefs-of-staff. It was call Operation Northwoods and it involved starting a war with Cuba. One part of the plan called for sinking a US battleship. Another part called for the military to conduct terrorist operations inside the DC or Miami area and blaiming it on Castro. Yet another part detailed a plan to explode an airliner and blame it on Cuba -- wait, there's more -- The day John Hinkley tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan, Neil Bush was scheduled to have dinner with Hinkley's dad. In fact, the Bush's and the Hinkley's were business partners as Hinkley's dad was the CEO of Vanderbuilt Energy and a major Bush contributer -- hillarious isn't it?

What color is the sun on your world? When conspiracy theorists go on like this it just sounds like the ramblings of someone who is out of touch with the real world. Although I do not know this to be the case, the "average" person reading this would have to wonder. Sinking a battleship? Remember the Maine?

What color is the sun on your world? When conspiracy theorists go on like this it just sounds like the ramblings of someone who is out of touch with the real world. Although I do not know this to be the case, the "average" person reading this would have to wonder. Sinking a battleship? Remember the Maine?

I think the colour in his sky is blue, the real question becomes, what colour is it in yours? It's a known/proven fact that the CIA put crack coke on the streets to fund Iran, it was a trade for arms to have hostages in Lebanon released. Ever hear of Iran/Contra? That's what he's talking about!

I think the colour in his sky is blue, the real question becomes, what colour is it in yours? It's a known/proven fact that the CIA put crack coke on the streets to fund Iran, it was a trade for arms to have hostages in Lebanon released. Ever hear of Iran/Contra? That's what he's talking about!

Yes I have heard of it...however, where is the proof. Congress investigated this and found none. Where is the smoking gun? Allegations and innuendo do not make truth.

Yes I have heard of it...however, where is the proof. Congress investigated this and found none. Where is the smoking gun? Allegations and innuendo do not make truth.

Exactly do the math, where did the money come from? This isn't a crack pot theory.. it's in fact largely accepted. Former CIA have confirmed it. So, it's not a TRA conspiracy theory here. It is more then plausible.

Exactly do the math, where did the money come from? This isn't a crack pot theory.. it's in fact largely accepted. Former CIA have confirmed it. So, it's not a TRA conspiracy theory here. It is more then plausible.

Ok, lets say they DID do. Did it affect you in any way? Was cocaine not available in LA the day before? IF they did it, it was wrong. IF they did it, it was over 20 years ago. IF they did it, it made no appreciable difference in the price of cocaine (price being the measure of availability, if the price suddenly went down that would indicate a larger than usual supply). So DID the price drop?

Well, it certianly happened once, and it can certianly happen again, but it would be a risky thing to do because I don't think people would roll over for it like they did last time. *in refrenece to the origional question not any of the ongoing BS that people are spewing*

When conspiracy theorists go on like this it just sounds like the ramblings of someone who is out of touch with the real world.

No theories here. I wish it were all fantasy too, but hidding your head in the sand doesn't make your troubles go away.

Although I do not know this to be the case, the "average" person reading this would have to wonder. Sinking a battleship? Remember the Maine?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

Enough to peak your intersts? Read the whole document on the George Washington University website: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

Regarding the topic of this thread: thanks to electronic voting, next time an election is stolen nobody will know the theft actually took place. There are no paper records, nothing to verify the elections results with, there will be nothing to recount. All there will be, is the election result.

Ballotonia

Ok, lets say they DID do. Did it affect you in any way? Was cocaine not available in LA the day before? IF they did it, it was wrong. IF they did it, it was over 20 years ago. IF they did it, it made no appreciable difference in the price of cocaine (price being the measure of availability, if the price suddenly went down that would indicate a larger than usual supply). So DID the price drop?

Of course they did it, I'm 35 years old, I watched the Iran/Contra hearings live on TV.. yeah, freaking right it was wrong, not only did the price go down, the quality of the drugs went up. So they could arm Iran, if this doesn't make you angry, I'm not sure what will.

Of course they did it, I'm 35 years old, I watched the Iran/Contra hearings live on TV..

I'm 19 and watching the Iran/Contra hearings are some of my earliest memmories... Thank you for your support: sorry I hi-jacked your thread (and blamed it on Castro)

I'm 19 and watching the Iran/Contra hearings are some of my earliest memories... Thank you for your support.

Hey, I only speak of the truth, but you're welcome.

The problem people have is they have become so desensitized to any thing that doesn't fit into the nice neat box that TV and the Media sell them , that any thing that dares to step outside the box must be some crack pot theory or some loony tune conspiracy nut, it's not a fluke, it's exactly what they have conditioned people to think. People can't handle the truth, if people knew the truth the whole fucking system would collapse.. and that is the truth. So any thing we say that may be out of the main stream will be fought with much protest, because it scares people to believe it might be possible that the world they live in isn't quite what they thought it was and that scares the shit out of them, so it's far easier to dismiss it as conspiracies, or crack pots. It's how the government gets' away with it.

Of course they did it, I'm 35 years old, I watched the Iran/Contra hearings live on TV.. yeah, freaking right it was wrong, not only did the price go down, the quality of the drugs went up. So they could arm Iran, if this doesn't make you angry, I'm not sure what will.

Ok, IF they did it....so what? That does not make me angry. I am not a cocaine user, or ANY other drugs for that matter. So maybe I do have my head in the sand, it just does not bother me. Besides, it happened so long ago that the statute of limitations has long passed and charging them is not an option at this point. If some drug users died because they suddenly had better quality drugs, is that a great loss to society as a whole? I do not think so. On the one hand I do not care if someone does drugs, because they are only hurting themselves. On the other hand, IF they die as a result of their actions, it is no great loss.

Now, does the CIA do things they shouldn't? Of course they do. They are fighting an unseen war. The world is a very dangerous place and they have to do things in unconventional ways. Selling arms to Iran (that they could not get spare parts for) and using that money to fund another action was BRILLIANT! Iran now has squadrons of US aircraft that they cannot use because of a lack of spare parts. If you have ever worked on fighters, you would see how brilliant that move was. Fighters will break hard if not flown every day. Leave them parked for 3 days and something WILL break. LOL

Steal the election? Last time I checked, after about 500 recounts in Florida, George Bush still won. Did you want more than 500 recounts? I have nothing against recounts, but the Sore/Loserman campaign went way to far to try to slip their way into the Whitehouse.

Hey, I only speak of the truth, but you're welcome.

The problem people have is they have become so desensitized to any thing that doesn't fit into the nice neat box that TV and the Media sell them , that any thing that dares to step outside the box must be some crack pot theory or some loony tune conspiracy nut, it's not a fluke, it's exactly what they have conditioned people to think. People can't handle the truth, if people knew the truth the whole fucking system would collapse.. and that is the truth. So any thing we say that may be out of the main stream will be fought with much protest, because it scares people to believe it might be possible that the world they live in isn't quite what they thought it was and that scares the shit out of them, so it's far easier to dismiss it as conspiracies, or crack pots. It's how the government gets' away with it.

You're absolutly correct, here is a perfect example of the this media controlled psy-op... On the CBC (Canadian Broadcast Channel) website, the page that discusses the Congressional Report of 9/11 (not to be confused with the recent white-wash commission) is titled Conspiracy Theories in the X-files font! What does this imply to the reader?
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/report.html

Steal the election? Last time I checked, after about 500 recounts in Florida, George Bush still won. Did you want more than 500 recounts? I have nothing against recounts, but the Sore/Loserman campaign went way to far to try to slip their way into the Whitehouse.

Had nothing to do with recounts last time, it was simple good old fashion elections fraud on the part of Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush's office. Or do you think it was also a fluke that 98% of the legal voters Katherine Harris took off the voters list just happened to be registered democrats.. give me a break. I'm not some stupid kid here. I know what happened, have read it, seen it in documentaries, lived it.. so save it.

You're absolutly correct, here is a perfect example of the this media controlled psy-op... On the CBC (Canadian Broadcast Channel) website, the page that discusses the Congressional Report of 9/11 (not to be confused with the recent white-wash commission) is titled Conspiracy Theories in the X-files font! What does this imply to the reader?
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/report.html

Hey, I'm Canadian, not only have I read that link before, I watched it when it aired on the 5th Estate. Great link though :)

The reason the topic is "stealing" the election - very grave questions have been asked since 2000, and few answers have been forwarded.

- Diebold voting machines don't leave a paper trail: This isn't overtly criminal in and of itself. But they don't meet many state voting codes, and states shouldn't buy/use them. It could be EASILY remedied by installing a printer and adding a bit of code, but hasn't - why?
- Diebold voting machines have been clearly DOCUMENTED to be cleanly hackable. Internal memos have been leaked (just google "Dieblod memos") showing results can easily be altered, without leaving a trace. This was in place during the 2000 election, where more than one Repbulican edged out an upset.
- The head of the company said he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." In and of itself, it's just one millionaire fundraising for another. But with the other irregularities, it looks bad.
- Diebold claims to have resolved the hacking problems, but (last I checked) were silent as to how they fixed them. Nor have they taken the ridiculously simple step of adding a "PRINT" button.

Fuzzy results cast a shadow over the winner... and in this case Bush's last election results are already highly disputed.

Can you come up with a plausible or logical reason to oppose a paper trail for votes? Other than creating an opportunity for greater confusion, or outright criminal mischeif or treason ?

The voters should insist on paper ballots. That would stop most of the fraud?

But then you would have something like what happened in Chicago in 1960. Dead people voting, multiple votes, and ballot stuffing.

Hey, I'm Canadian, not only have I read that link before, I watched it when it aired on the 5th Estate. Great link though :)

But why? Why would they use the X-files font if they wanted to be taken seriously?

Is the show respected in Canada? Is it considered reputable, or do they bounce from topics about 9/11 to bigfoot in a manner that dismisses the former by the reputation of the latter?

But why? Why would they use the X-files font if they wanted to be taken seriously?

Is the show respected in Canada? Is it considered reputable, or do they bounce from topics about 9/11 to bigfoot in a manner that dismisses the former by the reputation of the latter?

No, I think you might of misunderstood the point.. they used it to show they weren't saying it was true and they weren't saying it wasn't, then went on to say, but this is what we do know.

Yes, the show is highly respected in Canada, the only show I can think to compare it to in the states is 60 Minutes.

Of course they did it, I'm 35 years old, I watched the Iran/Contra hearings live on TV.. yeah, freaking right it was wrong, not only did the price go down, the quality of the drugs went up. So they could arm Iran, if this doesn't make you angry, I'm not sure what will.

Steph, the only thing that can make these people angry is when it's pointed out that they are wrong.

Steph, the only thing that can make these people angry is when it's pointed out that they are wrong.

Hmm, I'm not sure of that, because I know Zeppistan and I have both pointed out errors in the logic many times.. yet, they still stick to their guns rather tight. Some people no matter what you point out to them just don't either seem to get it, or choose not to.

Oh, nevermind.. I get it..lol yeah, I agree.. ;)

Dictator? Thats a stretch since we have an election coming up. :rolleyes: It is statements like this that destroy any credibility to any argument.

Yeah we really should wait to see ho... if he steals this one before doing anything about it, right?

No, I think you might of misunderstood the point.. they used it to show they weren't saying it was true and they weren't saying it wasn't, then went on to say, but this is what we do know.

Yeah, maybe so... but it was a Congressional Report -- it just seems a little counterprodutive to us the X-files font.


Yes, the show is highly respected in Canada, the only show I can think to compare it to in the states is 60 Minutes.

Well, thank goodness for that -- the only source of information like that in the US is from Amy Goodman's DemocracyNow and Alex Jones' infowars and they are far from highly respected by the masses.

The voters should insist on paper ballots. That would stop most of the fraud?


it never stopped in Daley's Chicago, just made it more of a challenge ;)

I don't know why you folks in the US don't go back to pencils and paper like we use in the UK elections. It may be primitive but it cuts out fraud of this sort.

Because the liberal leaders of "disinfranchised" minority Americans said America's minoritys are too stupid to vote on paper after the Florida caper... so they demanded electronic voting. Now that they have it, and stand to lose this election, again, they want us to believe that if they actually do lose this election then it MUST have been fraud. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Stupid liberals... self-entitled and self-serving.

Besides, it works both ways. If John Kerry wins, who's to say the same someone's didn't rig the election in HIS favor?

But then you would have something like what happened in Chicago in 1960. Dead people voting, multiple votes, and ballot stuffing.

Exactlly! We know that there was fraud in that election because they left a paper trail.

If there is no paper trail and voting were done by a machine built by a partison corporation, then how will he know if there was fraud? Are we supposed to put our faith in Diebold's uncorruptability? That's like trusting a stranger with your firstborn!

Had nothing to do with recounts last time, it was simple good old fashion elections fraud on the part of Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush's office. Or do you think it was also a fluke that 98% of the legal voters Katherine Harris took off the voters list just happened to be registered democrats.. give me a break. I'm not some stupid kid here. I know what happened, have read it, seen it in documentaries, lived it.. so save it.


propaganda that is unsupportable by facts. NYtimes, wash post, have all conducted recounts won by Bush.


other than using the most bogus liberal sources for your so called facts what do you have?

Not only is the description similar to that of my nation, but there are plenty of people who'd want to live in that sort of atmosphere - me for one, plus at least two of my close friends. You really shouldn't assume that everyone is like you - you'll end up being disappointed.

Where did I say everyone thought the same as me? I exoressed my opinion in a discussion with Gigatron about their nation's profile.
If you are happy to live in a country like that then good for you!

propaganda that is unsupportable by facts. NYtimes, wash post, have all conducted recounts won by Bush.


other than using the most bogus liberal sources for your so called facts what do you have?


I don't question the results of the recounts. It's a known fact that Katherine Harris acting as Sec. of elections took thousand upon thousand legal voters off the voters list. This is not a disputed fact. It was proven. She says it was a mistake.. but seems a little strange that 98% of them were African Americans. If you look at what was going on in Florida within the African American community and statements that Jeb Bush made prior to the election about "doing nothing for them" it might make more sense why they did it. Do a little research on it Eli, don't scream foul, till you do!

Amazing how many people start to sound like TRA when the subject is the Election in 2000...

Amazing how many people start to sound like TRA when the subject is the Election in 2000...

Yeah... a perceptive reader might conclude that something happened back then :rolleyes:

Amazing how many people start to sound like TRA when the subject is the Election in 2000...

Amazing how some people also put there blindfolds on and cover their ears when it's no some thing they either want to hear or see or worse yet, it doesn't back up what they wish to believe despite all evidence suggesting otherwise.

Amazing how some people also put there blindfolds on and cover their ears when it's no some thing they either want to hear or see or worse yet, it doesn't back up what they wish to believe despite all evidence suggesting otherwise.
i
Gore lost

Get over it

If Gore would have won his home state, FLA would have been a non-issue.

Instead of trying to place the blame of losing the electoral college vote on voter fraud, the Supreme Court, or on Nader, all the liberals need to be focused on this year's election (not just the Presidential elections, but all of them).

i
Gore lost

Get over it

If Gore would have won his home state, FLA would have been a non-issue.

Instead of trying to place the blame of losing the electoral college vote on voter fraud, the Supreme Court, or on Nader, all the liberals need to be focused on this year's election (not just the Presidential elections, but all of them).

Jeb and Katherine cheated, and everybody, including the sheep who refuse to admit it, knows it.

Suck on it.

Instead of trying to place the blame of losing the electoral college vote on voter fraud, the Supreme Court, or on Nader, all the liberals need to be focused on this year's election (not just the Presidential elections, but all of them).
Good point. I was watching Real Time with Douche of the Year on HBO to see what Micheal Moore (I nominate him for Douche of the Decade) had to say, and the token Republican they had on, I believe it was David Dreier, stated that the GOP controls the White House, Senate, House of Reps, most US State's Governors, and most state legislatures.

Even if Kerry somehow accomplishes enaugh voter fraud to defeat Bush, the GOP will still be sitting pretty.

On another note, I thought Rep. David Dreier did a damn good job in a very hostile enviroment. Nader, Moore, a former *cough cough* Canadian Progressive Prime Minister, and Bill Maher.

Also, I have finally seen F911, and, on the contrary to what other people have said, I did not find the style of the movie that much differant than what Moore usually does. I also found an awesome website that shows all the lies in F911.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

What happens if Kerry wins using the computer system? All fine and above board I suppose?


Absolutely not.

Not if its done illegally.

However, we all know that the last election WAS rigged illegally.
and it was done by the man in office, right now.

Its not inconceivable that we will do it again is it?

Good point. I was watching Real Time with Douche of the Year on HBO to see what Micheal Moore (I nominate him for Douche of the Decade) had to say, and the token Republican they had on, I believe it was David Dreier, stated that the GOP controls the White House, Senate, House of Reps, most US State's Governors, and most state legislatures.

Even if Kerry somehow accomplishes enaugh voter fraud to defeat Bush, the GOP will still be sitting pretty.

On another note, I thought Rep. David Dreier did a damn good job in a very hostile enviroment. Nader, Moore, a former *cough cough* Canadian Progressive Prime Minister, and Bill Maher.

Also, I have finally seen F911, and, on the contrary to what other people have said, I did not find the style of the movie that much differant than what Moore usually does. I also found an awesome website that shows all the lies in F911.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm


Not much to add. Other then I love Maher :D

Facts That Back Up Michael Moore's Film (http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/)

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Gore got the most votes in 2000.

[A] consortium [Tribune Co., owner of the Times; Associated Press; CNN; the New York Times; the Palm Beach Post; the St. Petersburg Times; the Wall Street Journal; and the Washington Post] hired the NORC [National Opinion Research Center, a nonpartisan research organization affiliated with the University of Chicago] to view each untallied ballot and gather information about how it was marked. The media organizations then used computers to sort and tabulate votes, based on varying scenarios that had been raised during the post-election scramble in Florida. Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, Mr. Gore erased Mr. Bush's advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Donald Lambro, “Recount Provides No Firm Answers,” Washington Times, November 12, 2001.

Amazing how many people start to sound like TRA when the subject is the Election in 2000...

Let me guess... you're one of those coincidence theorist? Every time something happens in the world you run around yelling "it's all a coincidence."


1) The PNAC calls for the invasion of Iraq in the 90's, Paul O'Neil and Richard Clark both claim that Bush's administration was looking for a pretext to invade Iraq from the momment he took office.
*it's all a coincidence*

2) Li'l Bush and Hinkley Sr. having dinner together the day Reagon was shot? Hinkley Sr. and Bush Sr. are business partners.
*it's all a coincidence*

3) George Bush has an off-shore oil drilling company named Zapata less than thirty miles from Cuba in the early 60's. The three ships used during the CIA's Bay of Pigs debacle were named the Barbra, the Houston, and the Zapata. J. Edgar Hoover sent a letter to a CIA agent named George Bush after the Kennedy assassination asking about its effect on Cuban ex-patriots working for the CIA. In the Watergate tapes, Nixon mentions the involvement of the Texas Oilmen in the Bay of Pigs.
*it's all a coincidence*

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Gore got the most votes in 2000.

[A] consortium [Tribune Co., owner of the Times; Associated Press; CNN; the New York Times; the Palm Beach Post; the St. Petersburg Times; the Wall Street Journal; and the Washington Post] hired the NORC [National Opinion Research Center, a nonpartisan research organization affiliated with the University of Chicago] to view each untallied ballot and gather information about how it was marked. The media organizations then used computers to sort and tabulate votes, based on varying scenarios that had been raised during the post-election scramble in Florida. Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, Mr. Gore erased Mr. Bush's advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Donald Lambro, “Recount Provides No Firm Answers,” Washington Times, November 12, 2001.
quit complaining about something that cannot be changed now, and focus on tryiing to win back the Whitehouse, Senate, House of Reps, state Governor seats, and state legislators.

Let me guess... you're one of those coincidence theorist? Every time something happens in the world you run around yelling "it's all a coincidence."


1) The PNAC calls for the invasion of Iraq in the 90's, Paul O'Neil and Richard Clark both claim that Bush's administration was looking for a pretext to invade Iraq from the momment he took office.
*it's all a coincidence*

2) Li'l Bush and Hinkley Sr. having dinner together the day Reagon was shot? Hinkley Sr. and Bush Sr. are business partners.
*it's all a coincidence*

3) George Bush has an off-shore oil drilling company named Zapata less than thirty miles from Cuba in the early 60's. The three ships used during the CIA's Bay of Pigs debacle were named the Barbra , the Houston , and the Zapata . J. Edgar Hoover sent a letter to a CIA agent named George Bush after the Kennedy assassination asking about its effect on Cuban ex-patriots working for the CIA. In the Watergate tapes, Nixon mentions the involvement of the Texas Oilmen in the Bay of Pigs.
*it's all a coincidence*
Bush Sr. was in the CIA. Everyone knows that. Most CIA people do some shady stuff. What does Bush Sr.'s actions in the CIA under the Kennedy administation have to do with Iraq?

Facts That Back Up Michael Moore's Film (http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/)

I was at the Crawford screening of F9/11 and there was a group of about ten teens trying to disrupt the speaker before the movie started. They had signs and chanted:

"No Moore -- Bush '04" "No Moore -- Bush '04" "No Moore -- Bush '04"

So, a few seconds went by and finally the speaker said "well, if they're not going to stop, we might as well come together and chant with them," so then about a thousand people started chanting:

"No more Bush '04" "No more Bush '04" "No more Bush '04" "No more Bush '04"

True story.

And today, in the Komokom Times :

*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
US sends Messenger toward Mercury,
" Surrender Osama ! "
Says Bush.

We hope for a day when most Americans will wake the F**k up and vote independant (preferably libertarian) "Voting for an independant is wasting your vote because they have no chance to win the election" That my fellow Americans is exactly what keeps us from having an actual CHOICE for president. Look at both candidates and honestly tell me you as a voting citizen have a real choice in the election?! Trade one asswipe for another. No thanks, I'll vote straight ticket Libertarian and give my vote to a candidate that actually follows the Constitution of the United States!

-Dare to think for yourselves!

Bush Sr. was in the CIA. Everyone knows that. Most CIA people do some shady stuff. What does Bush Sr.'s actions in the CIA under the Kennedy administation have to do with Iraq?

Because understanding the father is crucial to understanding the son.

George Bush's job in the CIA was to organize and train Cuban Ex-patriots for the invastion of Cuba. After Kennedy refused to all the Air Force to support the CIA's illegal invasion of Cuba, the whole Bay of Pigs thing blew-up in their faces. Still fixated with Castro, the NSA soon drew-up a plan called Operation Northwoods and passed it over to the Joint-Cheifs-of-Staff. The plan involved conducting terrorist operations inside the US, sinking a US battle ship, and exploding an airplane full of college students and then blaiming the whole thing on Castro in order to provide a pretext for war. Kennedy refused the idea (obviously) and was soon there after executed. If you watch the Zapruter film, you'll notice many odd things, like his brains being blown out of his head from the direction the magic-bullet supposedly came from, and you might also see a lot of Cubans. The next day, Bush (who was the chair of Houston's Republican party and also worked out of Miami for his Zapata oil business) is sent a letter by J. Edgar Hoover asking him if the CIA and the Cuban Ex-patriots are going to try to oust Castro again.

After serving a stint as the CIA director (under the unelected "presidency" of Ford) he developed close ties with the Hinkley family that ran Vanderbilt Energy and served on the board of World Vision, (a small, non-profit refugee camp provider for the third world) The Hinkley's became major contributers to the Bush campaign. When Bush lost Republican party bid, he bullied his way into Reagon's Veep. It was considered odd because they had disagreed on every major issue, Bush even ran a smear campaign against the Gipper during the primaries and called his policy "voodoo-economics."

Still, Bush really wanted to win (even if it was just as a veep) so he decided to call-up his good buddies Admeral Poindexter and Oliver North (who headed the CIA's Project Phoenix in Vietnam, a program that conducted terrorist operations against the South Veitnames) make a deal with the Iranian's. What was that deal? Well, it was a promise to sell them weapons if they didn't release the hostages. October Surprise!

Well, eventually Reagon opened his big mouth and started making comments about shutting down the CFR and the Trilateral Commission -- and since the Bush family's loyalty has always been to IMF (old European Money), he had to go. Hinkley might have failed to kill Reagon, but he did get the message across -- after the assassination attempt Reagon's views changed and Bush started running the show without any questions asked.

So, now that Bush was running the Reagon White House and he started a series of proxy wars in Latin America by using the World Vision refugee camps as CIA fronts. There, the agency recruited younge-men, shipped them to the School of the Americas at Ft. Benning, Georgia -- trained them how to fight guerrilla warfare (now re-classified as terrorism) and then they used them in cooperation with the US Special Forces to assassinate democratically elected populist leaders and massacre whole villages. Chile, Columbia, El Salvador -- pick a spot in Latin America and it's a safe bet that there's a Bush co. mass grave there. Not wanting to limit his murderous rampage to just one half of the globe, Bush also oversaw Rumsfelds' trip to Iraq and applauded the gift of Mustard and Sarin gases. (selling weapons to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, you devil you.)

Killing so many people soon became expensive, so he called on his good friends at the CIA, Ollie North and Felix Rodreguez too smuggle Cocaine into the US in order to fund the whole thing. You remember the crack-era, don't you?

Bush finally got the title President after already having the power for about a decade as a result of the 88' election. He kicked off his party with a War on Drugs. (Another war of which he played both sides) It seems that by flooding the streets with crack, he had created the perfect pretext for disassembeling the Posse Comitatus Act (which bars military involvment in civil law) Not only that, but the "drug-crime" epidemic allowed for the privitizion of prisons. Soon, private corporations like Wackenhut (with several NSA and CIA officials serving on its board of directors) were being awarded large government contracts to house their own customers. Now that's a lucritive business, it sounds like all those years at Yale really paid off!

After the Iran-Iraq war ended in a drawl, Bush sent an ambassador to Iraq to discuss Oil business with Saddam. Having just finished a fruitless endevour, Saddam's economic prospects looked dim; OPEC was lowering oil prices below what he could afford to sell them. When Saddam asked the US ambassador what the US's stance would be if he invaded Kuwait, the response was this "The United State's has no opinion of your Arab to Arab conflicts."

Saddam invaded Kuwait. Bush spoke of a New World Order, sent troops to protect the Saudi Royal family, and launched Operation Desert Storm. There's nothing like seeing scud-missiles over Israel to conjure-up thoughts of the apocolypse. There's nothing like watching billion-dollar bombs blowing-up fleeing Iraqi civilians to make a kid quesiton god. So, Bush saved the day for the Saudi's and returned the Kuwaities to the despotic rule of monarchy.

Bush didn't make the grade in 92' so he bowed out of politics and joined the business end of the iron triangle. He still receives CIA briefings and is an avid member of the Carlyle Group along with his friends, the bin Ladens.

Meanwhile, US marines stayed in Saudi Arabia to protect the Royal Family and the Bush Family oil assets. Some of them died in 1996 when an al Qaeda bombed them. The Pentagon awarded the rebuilding contract to the bin Laden construction company. (cha-ching!)

So, after fighting both sides of the Iran-Iraq war and the War on Drugs, George Bush was fighting both sides of the War on Terror. Now, that's business savvy!

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but don't alot just not add up in The Kennedy Assasination?

Just out of interest Tygaland, do you practice talking crap, or does it just come naturally?

Notice how all the Americans are against their president, and you're defending him? Doesn't that tell you something? And as to you're mockery of suggestions that the computers might be used to rig votes, I can only ask how you can trust completely and totally a system built by people who outwardly support one candidate, who won a previous election by very dodgy means.

And how is becoming more similar to ants necessarily devolving? There is less death and destruction and, because we can strive single mindedly towards improvement, life expectancy should sky rocket. How terrible. How very terrible.
* emphasis mine

Still waiting on that reputable source citing a 0% approval rating for Bush in the US. Being the sticklers we are for sources on these forums I am sure you have something to back up such a claim? I mean, you wouldn't post complete crap in a post accusing someone else of speaking crap, would you?

I've already posted my reply about my concerns over this issue..I'm not doing again. I will re-iterate that if I DO NOT get a paper ballot when I go to vote this November I am going to sit down and protest until I do. I'm pretty sure that every election center has to carry paper ballots.
Whether my actions change anything matters little; I live in a democracy. I want to excersise my right to vote. And besides, I am writing in my own candidate. Why? Just because I can. (And also because I choose to excercise my freedom to vote and I do not like either candidate.)

quit complaining about something that cannot be changed now, and focus on tryiing to win back the Whitehouse, Senate, House of Reps, state Governor seats, and state legislators.

Yeah... let's forget history... we won't really be doomed to repeat it, will we?

You might also want to forget this, but certain neocons on this thread have put forth a challenge to provide any nonbiased proof that Gore would have won in 2000. The post you were replying to has done so.

In fact the whole point of this thread is that the 2004 elections will be using paperless black-box voting machines provided by politically aligned corporations. This makes many concerned that history will repeat itself, only this time on a national level and with no possibility of any form of recount. If we, those of us who oppose the coup leader and his thugs stealing any more elections, are to focus on winning the various elections you have mentioned, we MUST speak out against this travesty.

Facts That Back Up Michael Moore's Film (http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/)

Facts That Prove Michael Moore & His Films Are Lies, Deceit, and Poison to the Brain (http://www.moorewatch.com)

Seriously, you link Michael Moore's personally owned and operated site to prove his "documentary" is legitimate?

Have mercy!

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but don't alot just not add up in The Kennedy Assasination?

Yeahhhhhhhh ... and the Apollo Moon Landing was fake too. Man, you're right on the ball with them dead horses, ain't ya?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazi Weaponized Virus
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but don't alot just not add up in The Kennedy Assasination?

Yeahhhhhhhh ... and the Apollo Moon Landing was fake too. Man, you're right on the ball with them dead horses, ain't ya?

Leaving aside the flat earthers... Some of us prefer to know the truth of history. If you don't, hey, that's cool. :) And if you feel the need to tell others to just forget about it, feel free to keep posting here. :)

You might also want to forget this, but certain neocons on this thread have put forth a challenge to provide any nonbiased proof that Gore would have won in 2000. The post you were replying to has done so.


Well here are some sources that show that Gore would not have won in 2000:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=276278
http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/050301_Perrin.htm
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/27166.htm

quit complaining about something that cannot be changed now, and focus on tryiing to win back the Whitehouse, Senate, House of Reps, state Governor seats, and state legislators.

They can't! ITs all they think about. They lost power and now are doing everything possible to win it back. They used Florida in 2002 and still LOST the US Senate as well as the race for Governor which I found Ironic. Though the Senate is a toss up, the House is not! The House will remain Republican.

As for this election, though I THINK Bush is going to win, nothing is certian. This is a tight race and it could go either way. We'll have to wait and see and IF Bush wins, I'm bracing for lawsuits.

I've already posted my reply about my concerns over this issue..I'm not doing again. I will re-iterate that if I DO NOT get a paper ballot when I go to vote this November I am going to sit down and protest until I do. I'm pretty sure that every election center has to carry paper ballots.
Whether my actions change anything matters little; I live in a democracy. I want to excersise my right to vote. And besides, I am writing in my own candidate. Why? Just because I can. (And also because I choose to excercise my freedom to vote and I do not like either candidate.)


They are not required to provide you with a paper ballot. The controversy surrounding these new machines is huge. In fact slot machines are more regulated than the new voting machines. Slot machines have independent companies required to make sure they work properly, not so voting machines, as the owners won't let the code out, claiming it as intellectual property, or some nonsense. Only the voting machine company itself can verify that a machine works properly. In slot machines you have the right to contest that a machine is not working properly, and an independent operator will come and check the machine. Not so voting machines.

Get involved! Demand paper trails NOW! We have been successful in many states requiring them, make sure your state is one of em!