NationStates Jolt Archive

Most of you may not know it but today is the 60th Aniversarry of the Warsaw uprising. I am Polish-american and i feel pride about it. I would like to hear your opinions and thoughts and maybe your stories (if you have any, most likely ones from your parents).

Ooops. I accidentaly thought this was the GheTTO uprising. I still know about both, but they were kindof mixed in my mind at the moment. You can gt rid of the "Jew" in the poll. Im not anti-semetic or anything, but i was thinking of the Wrong Uprising.

Come on, people. You know what the warsaw uprising was, dont you?

Even if it was a stupid thing to do...it needed to be done. Live free or die.

Unfortunately I'm mostly in the dark, I never studdied WW2 history in much depth and it was certainly never mentioned in any of my classes. :(

Alright, what freak said they were Complete idiots and deserve no respect? LEt me attem!

Unfortunately I'm mostly in the dark, I never studdied WW2 history in much depth and it was certainly never mentioned in any of my classes. :(
Damn shame, it should have been included.

Unfortunately I'm mostly in the dark, I never studdied WW2 history in much depth and it was certainly never mentioned in any of my classes. :(

Then you had a bad historry Teacher. The WArsaw Uprising was when the Jews of Warsaw that were trapped int eh ghetto a baisically forced to be slaves, rose up against their NAzi Oppressors. They eventually lost but they showed that the Poles COULD defend themselves (but not very well).

warsaw uprising? is that when poland ran out of beer and revolted?


nah im just messing with ya, i know what it is, didnt remember the anniversery was today

Going against all odds, they took a stand for what they believed in and I salute them for that.

Then you had a bad historry Teacher. The WArsaw Uprising was when the Jews of Warsaw that were trapped int eh ghetto a baisically forced to be slaves, rose up against their NAzi Oppressors. They eventually lost but they showed that the Poles COULD defend themselves (but not very well).
Slaves? More like the Nazi's were slowly killing them off, block by block.

warsaw uprising? is that when poland ran out of beer and revolted?


nah im just messing with ya, i know what it is, didnt remember the anniversery was today

Lol.. about the beer part. And actually, Poles are more of a SAusage people than beer people. Msot people think they are coz the border Germany, but the two countries are very different.

Slaves? More like the Nazi's were slowly killing them off, block by block.
True, they were also slowly decreasing the land in which they could live. Eventually, if they hadnt revolted, thered be 200,000 jews in 3 blocks of 3 story housing. THAT would be ugly. But f course, msot of them woudl already be dead from starvation adn from teh Nazis.

Lol.. about the beer part. And actually, Poles are more of a SAusage people than beer people. Msot people think they are coz the border Germany, but the two countries are very different.
i know but beer was the first thing that came to mind

Not a bad history teacher, it just wasn't in the curriculum and there was no where near enough time for them to cover anything in enough depth. I had something like 5 hours a week which rotated between history, geography and something else.

As you can imagine, that was barely enough time to explain what caused WW2, let alone go in to depth.

Then you had a bad historry Teacher. The WArsaw Uprising was when the Jews of Warsaw that were trapped int eh ghetto a baisically forced to be slaves, rose up against their NAzi Oppressors. They eventually lost but they showed that the Poles COULD defend themselves (but not very well).

This is NOT that uprising, that uprising occured in April 1943, this one occured August 1944, and was not by the Jews, it was the Home Army.

Unfortunately most people only have a vague knowledge of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (a different one completely then the one we are discussing, but for some reason more well known) and then only from movies, in the Western world the Warsaw uprising is overshadowed by what was going on in France at the time, namely the Battle of Normandy and the Paris uprising which was shortly after.

But I am not one of those people, the uprising was all that could be hoped for considering the Home Army's situation. Most could see Stalin had no intention on re-establishing the Government in exile in London, or even a Polish one, his Lublin Government was more suited to his needs. There was no way the West was going to break through France and Germany before the Soviets reached Warsaw (they were on it's outskirts after Bagration).

Unfortunately for the Home Army, the rapid collapse of the Polish Army meant there was n time to stow away munitions left from the battle for Poland, so they had to make do with a scant collection of rifles (2,000 IIRC) and pistols (even less) and scarce ammunition. A lot of home made weapons were used, but in the end there situation rested on the timely intervention of the Soviet Army which was sitting just outside the city.

When the Uprising began the Germans could not contain it quickly enough and the Home Army captured a large section of the city. Curiously enough, and to the Home Army's dismay, the cutoff German units outside the city were not attacked by the Red Army, most likely becuase of what a Polish liberation of Warsaw entailed. This no-show of Soviet response allowed the Germans to rush in forces to surround the Home Army areas and even units facing the Red Army were drawn to surround it.

Upon hearing of this the West was anxious to at least help, since it was obvious the Red Army (officially for supply reasons, which quite often happen for them in offensives) was not going to help. But Stalin barred the West from using Soviet bases for supply drops until the battle had been all but decided. A Polish Parachute brigade was dismayed and went on a hunger strike when the British Military Command refused to parachute them into Warsaw to aid the Home Army.

The Germans slowly began reducing the zones the Home Army occupied, laying waste to the city in the process. Becuase the Home Army had no uniforms, the Germans could basically kill anyone they suspected, and this fear of death, combined with the stop of supplies the Uprising entailed meant the population not involved came to hate the Home Army as much as the Germans. The Home Army, always lacking in everything, was beginning to fall apart anyway, the stew they were reduced to was little better then very watery grime, and ammunition was near non-existent. The Germans offered to recognize Home Army soldiers as combatants (as opposed to partisans) if they surrendered, but this was not accepted.

In the end, the Uprising was a failure, this can be largely blamed on the Soviet stalling Western Aid and refusing to even advance an infantry regiment to annoy the Germans, but also on the Home Army's unpreparedness. The Polish did exact retribution for the destruction of the city by the Germans however, as the Polish Armoured Division operating in the Army of Liberation (In France) was the unit that closed the Falaise pocket at Trun, linking up with American Third Army units. This ensured whatever remained of Army Group B (The German Army Group defended Northern France) was destroyed by Allied Air Power and the surrounding Armies.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005188

I almost confused it with the '44 uprising. Well, they tried, but they stood no chance. In this scenario, it was probably better for them that they died fighting.

And yes, in case anyone is wondering I did change the order of my posts, I did not do all that typing and have to see it at the bottom of a page,they are too often overlooked.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005188

I almost confused it with the '44 uprising. Well, they tried, but they stood no chance. In this scenario, it was probably better for them that they died fighting.

Once again, wrong uprising that uprising began on April 19, 1943, the anniversary that is today is of the Home Army's uprising in August 1944.

Speaking of history,

My history teachers as of 8th grade have not covered any foreign countries besides a cursory review of England and Spain as "Yeha, they exist". We did from the pilgrims to the civil war 8 times in a row, and covered everything between reconstruction to the cold war in 2 days- the first day being WWI, the second being WWII and the Cold War (being a "Yeah, here's how it happened. Germany went here, etc. thing.). So I'm still looking into what exactly it was...

Education is nice in the south...

EDIT- Okay, from examination- I voted Brave But Stupid. Surely they knew they would die (Stupid), but they did it anyway (Brave.). With emphasis on Brave.

Those poles were morons, Iam glad the Russians stopped for "regrouping and refuelling" then when the uprising was crushed went in and destroy Nazis and Polish alike.
What the hell are you thinking when you uprise in the middle of a huge Nazi concentration?

This poll is wrong, the 60th anniversary celebrated today is of the Home Army's uprising against the Germans in the wake of the Soviet Bagration Offensive and Allied Overlord and Dragoon offensives. Therewere almost no jews involved for the simple reason that most of them had been killed in the earlier Ghetto Uprising (of April 1943, it's 61st Anniversary was earlier this year).

This is NOT that uprising, that uprising occured in April 1943, this one occured August 1944, and was not by the Jews, it was the Home Army.

Is that so? Oh well, the poll applies ALL the same. The Poles were heros both times. And dont tell me they werent DONt yOU DARE teLL Me they WERENT!

Live free or die :mp5:
Van tenir un parell de collons!!*!!

Those poles were morons, Iam glad the Russians stopped for "regrouping and refuelling" then when the uprising was crushed went in and destroy Nazis and Polish alike.
What the hell are you thinking when you uprise in the middle of a huge Nazi concentration?

The Soviets after destroying Army Group Centre had occupied a suburb of Warsaw, and were within marching distance of the city. This was the only chance the Home Army had if Poles were to restore Warsaw, they thought the Soviets would attack the Germans outside the city since they would be cutoff by the uprising, instead the Soviets didn't do a thing.

Is that so? Oh well, the poll applies ALL the same. The Poles were heros both times. And dont tell me they werent DONt yOU DARE teLL Me they WERENT!

I had no intention of it, but to say the Uprising of August was by the Jews should be a smack in the face of gentile Poles. The Poles were some of the fiercest warriors of the war (the Polish Armoured fought with great tenacity in the Battle of Normandy against fanatical units trying to avoid encirclement), and propoganda like lancers charging tanks was complete bull, it never happened. I feel very bad for the Poles, who traded one occupier for another, they, along with the Czechs were helpless to decide their fate as trapped people's, but at least the Poles tried to fight for their independence.

And this is not to downplay the Ghetto Rising, that act took far greater courage, by people even less supplied and armed then the Home Army, against a foe who did not have to worry about enemy armies outside the city. The Jews were literally up against a wall, it was their only hope for survival, unfortunately no one was in a position to help them, the West did not have the aircraft to spare and no bases with which to do much, at least the Home Army got a meagre amount of air-dropped supplies.

Iam sorry i got mixed up. I knew abou both uprisings but for some reason they got mixed in my mind. I apologise for my idiocy.

I also know that the poles were fierce warriors. Most of the time, though, as in the case of WWII, they were underequiped and vastly outumbered. Unforunatly, Bravery isnt enough.

The people of Warsaw where true heros, it takes a lot more bravery to face a foe if you are outgunned, outnumberd and occupied. We shall never forget thier bravery and the part they played in the liberation of Europe.

Yes, back to the topic at hand. The Poles were heros, i will burn whoever said they were stupid and deserved no respect, then i will decapitate them, cut their heads open so i can see their brains, then have a Dog eat them. Im surprised that no major WWII vido game has a battle where you play as a Polish Soldier in either of the Uprisings.

The Soviets after destroying Army Group Centre had occupied a suburb of Warsaw, and were within marching distance of the city. This was the only chance the Home Army had if Poles were to restore Warsaw, they thought the Soviets would attack the Germans outside the city since they would be cutoff by the uprising, instead the Soviets didn't do a thing.

It was Rokossovskij who asked to halt the advance, and it was indeed because of their supplielines, they had become to long. Yet when the order to halt was given by Stalin, Tolbukhin still advanced.

Besides, They would have been halted or atleast slowed down by Kampfgruppe Reinefarth

And please replace the word Germans by SS. Reinefarth is SS, just like the elements of the Kaminski Brigade that "cleaned" up the city. You make it seem as if all German soldiers were bad, as everyone who reads this will think it was Wehrmacht.

True. Most German soldiers just fought. It was (mostly) only the SS who commited the crimes

By all means, the Uprising should have been a success, except for the critical factor of the Red Army. To appreciate this one must draw a comparison with Paris of late August. There the FFI began an uprising after Army Group B was destroyed and it's remnants retreating. The Red Army was closer to Warsaw then Leclerc's Armoured Division was to Paris, but Warsaw was more heavily defended (but by shocked troops). Both Armies (The Red and Allied) had no intention of taking either Warsaw, becuase they really had outrun their supplies and becuase exactly what happened might happen as they entered, or Paris, becuase the supplies needed to keep Paris fed (estimated at the consumption of 8 Divisions) were more desperately needed to continue the offensive into Germany.

When the Warsaw Uprising began, the Soviet Army stood by and did nothing, refusing to even advance infantry to fient the Germans. This could be forgiven for their logistical problems (if you read about the Eastern Front, the soviets often outran their supply lines by many months and had to stop for long times tore-establish them), if they had allowed the West to drop in supplies. But they did not, they refused until September when the Uprising was all but lost.

When Paris rose up, the Allied Army of Liberation now had to liberate the city. Not only had De Gaulle been insistent, but they were afraid of another Warsaw, where the city would be destroyed and the inhabitants mostly killed. So Eisenhower alloted one American Division and Leclercs Armoured Division to advance on Paris to liberate the city with the FFI. The German resistance melted away, and though there was some street skirmishes once the Allies entered Paris, for the most part the city was taken intact.

These two uprising are very similar, except in results. In both cases the German Commanders offered combatant status to either the Home Army or FFI if they ceased their uprising, both times it was rejected. The main difference of course was that the Allied Army of Liberation attacked the Germans in Paris in concert with the FFI, the Red Army did no such thing. The FFI was just as badly supplied as the Home Army, since most airdrops done before or after Overord by the Western Allies had purposely avoided cities (becuase cities were the havens of Communist FFI groups, and De Gaulle who had control over where the drops landed did not want Communists challenging his power) and the Battle of France had been fought far away from Paris so likewise there was no weapons to be stored away after the French Army's collapse.

So, looking at these two situations it is only painfully obvious that the Red Army's reluctance to advance into Warsaw was the deciding factor in the destruction of the city and the Home Army's massacre.

It was Rokossovskij who asked to halt the advance, and it was indeed because of their supplielines, they had become to long. Yet when the order to halt was given by Stalin, Tolbukhin still advanced.

Besides, They would have been halted or atleast slowed down by Kampfgruppe Reinefarth

And please replace the word Germans by SS. Reinefarth is SS, just like the elements of the Kaminski Brigade that "cleaned" up the city. You make it seem as if all German soldiers were bad, as everyone who reads this will think it was Wehrmacht.

I would beg to differ, by this time in the war the SS was hardly recruiting the cream of the crop. And popular belief has it that the Waffen SS (the military arm of the SS) received the best equipment, in fact the Heer received far better equipment than the SS, Tigers and Panthers were deployed to the Heer first, and as were Jagdpanthers and most other frontline equipment.

By now the SS was recruiting soldiers in conscription just as the was the Heer, and the average SS was exactly the same as the Heer soldier (Heer was the German Army, in fact the Whermacht refers to the German Military as a whole). But since I don't feel like getting into this argument, I will digress and say fine, the SS did it.

the polish people have my admiration
in the end they stood up to the Nazis AND the soviets
2 foes who showed that they would massacre anyone who opposed them.
that took great courage

By all means, the Uprising should have been a success, except for the critical factor of the Red Army. To appreciate this one must draw a comparison with Paris of late August. There the FFI began an uprising after Army Group B was destroyed and it's remnants retreating. The Red Army was closer to Warsaw then Leclerc's Armoured Division was to Paris, but Warsaw was more heavily defended (but by shocked troops). Both Armies (The Red and Allied) had no intention of taking either Warsaw, becuase they really had outrun their supplies and becuase exactly what happened might happen as they entered, or Paris, becuase the supplies needed to keep Paris fed (estimated at the consumption of 8 Divisions) were more desperately needed to continue the offensive into Germany.

When the Warsaw Uprising began, the Soviet Army stood by and did nothing, refusing to even advance infantry to fient the Germans. This could be forgiven for their logistical problems (if you read about the Eastern Front, the soviets often outran their supply lines by many months and had to stop for long times tore-establish them), if they had allowed the West to drop in supplies. But they did not, they refused until September when the Uprising was all but lost.

When Paris rose up, the Allied Army of Liberation now had to liberate the city. Not only had De Gaulle been insistent, but they were afraid of another Warsaw, where the city would be destroyed and the inhabitants mostly killed. So Eisenhower alloted one American Division and Leclercs Armoured Division to advance on Paris to liberate the city with the FFI. The German resistance melted away, and though there was some street skirmishes once the Allies entered Paris, for the most part the city was taken intact.

These two uprising are very similar, except in results. In both cases the German Commanders offered combatant status to either the Home Army or FFI if they ceased their uprising, both times it was rejected. The main difference of course was that the Allied Army of Liberation attacked the Germans in Paris in concert with the FFI, the Red Army did no such thing. The FFI was just as badly supplied as the Home Army, since most airdrops done before or after Overord by the Western Allies had purposely avoided cities (becuase cities were the havens of Communist FFI groups, and De Gaulle who had control over where the drops landed did not want Communists challenging his power) and the Battle of France had been fought far away from Paris so likewise there was no weapons to be stored away after the French Army's collapse.

So, looking at these two situations it is only painfully obvious that the Red Army's reluctance to advance into Warsaw was the deciding factor in the destruction of the city and the Home Army's massacre.

Again you are mixing SS with Wehrmacht.
Von Choltitz was Wehrmacht and didnt listen to Hitlers order to defend Paris.
Reinefarth was SS, a fanatical Nazi who would fight to the death. A Kampfgruppe also holds panzers, Kaminski's men had T-34 and ISU-122s and got support from the Luftwaffe, again a big difference, especially when you lack supplies.

By all means, the Uprising should have been a success, except for the critical factor of the Red Army. To appreciate this one must draw a comparison with Paris of late August. There the FFI began an uprising after Army Group B was destroyed and it's remnants retreating. The Red Army was closer to Warsaw then Leclerc's Armoured Division was to Paris, but Warsaw was more heavily defended (but by shocked troops). Both Armies (The Red and Allied) had no intention of taking either Warsaw, becuase they really had outrun their supplies and becuase exactly what happened might happen as they entered, or Paris, becuase the supplies needed to keep Paris fed (estimated at the consumption of 8 Divisions) were more desperately needed to continue the offensive into Germany.

When the Warsaw Uprising began, the Soviet Army stood by and did nothing, refusing to even advance infantry to fient the Germans. This could be forgiven for their logistical problems (if you read about the Eastern Front, the soviets often outran their supply lines by many months and had to stop for long times tore-establish them), if they had allowed the West to drop in supplies. But they did not, they refused until September when the Uprising was all but lost.

When Paris rose up, the Allied Army of Liberation now had to liberate the city. Not only had De Gaulle been insistent, but they were afraid of another Warsaw, where the city would be destroyed and the inhabitants mostly killed. So Eisenhower alloted one American Division and Leclercs Armoured Division to advance on Paris to liberate the city with the FFI. The German resistance melted away, and though there was some street skirmishes once the Allies entered Paris, for the most part the city was taken intact.

These two uprising are very similar, except in results. In both cases the German Commanders offered combatant status to either the Home Army or FFI if they ceased their uprising, both times it was rejected. The main difference of course was that the Allied Army of Liberation attacked the Germans in Paris in concert with the FFI, the Red Army did no such thing. The FFI was just as badly supplied as the Home Army, since most airdrops done before or after Overord by the Western Allies had purposely avoided cities (becuase cities were the havens of Communist FFI groups, and De Gaulle who had control over where the drops landed did not want Communists challenging his power) and the Battle of France had been fought far away from Paris so likewise there was no weapons to be stored away after the French Army's collapse.

So, looking at these two situations it is only painfully obvious that the Red Army's reluctance to advance into Warsaw was the deciding factor in the destruction of the city and the Home Army's massacre.

Both ways, though, Poland would have been drawn into the Warsaw Pact, and the only difference would be there would be a few less dead poles.

Yes, back to the topic at hand. The Poles were heros, i will burn whoever said they were stupid and deserved no respect, then i will decapitate them, cut their heads open so i can see their brains, then have a Dog eat them. Im surprised that no major WWII vido game has a battle where you play as a Polish Soldier in either of the Uprisings.

A Warsaw scenario would make a great addition to Call of Duty, the only problem being that historically, the Home Army did not have an availability of weapons, but since when did video games ever pay attention to that. The scenario itself and setting would make a better campaign than Stalingrad.

A Warsaw scenario would make a great addition to Call of Duty, the only problem being that historically, the Home Army did not have an availability of weapons, but since when did video games ever pay attention to that. The scenario itself and setting would make a better campaign than Stalingrad.

I agree. Plus, even if they did stick to the facts, hitting an SS officer in the back of the head with a broken Wine-bottle still would have been fun.

Again you are mixing SS with Wehrmacht.
Von Choltitz was Wehrmacht and didnt listen to Hitlers order to defend Paris.
Reinefarth was SS, a fanatical Nazi who would fight to the death. A Kampfgruppe also holds panzers, Kaminski's men had T-34 and ISU-122s and got support from the Luftwaffe, again a big difference, especially when you lack supplies.

As I said, I will not get into an SS/Whermacht debate since it will end up OT, so I will concede the SS was more fanatical than the Whermacht, but are you sure about the T-34 and ISU-122, I wasn't aware the Kaminski Brigade used Soviet equipment, but again, since I do not have an OOB for it, I will concede.

Yo people...well, after reading so much about how Poles were brave i just felt totally proud, as i'm Pole, and live close to the Warsaw :)...some of u, have astonishing knowledge about history, as I can see...what can I add, well, the real origin of this Uprising, was that people were just overloaded with fear and killings...it is said that we are, or were so brave, but who wouldn't be? Having Germans investigating you and your family in the middle of the night, capturing your friends in the middle of the day and killing them infront of you...That were hard times, and people just got desperate, some of them fought for their country, some for their families, all for freedome...I'm proud just like You...

If we are talking about Russians, well, their appearance was obvious in our areas, they wanted Polish and German armies to fight, and then, being strong, defeat both to gain power in our country - at least in the east, as it occured as a fact after the war, when the communists gained power in our government - if such thing existet at all. Anyway, that is history, today, some of us are ashamed, some proud, but still, we didn't take any part of it, so, if there are some people ready to insult present Russians or Germans because of what happened, they should think about future, couse we are new generation, and we build our history...God help us, and don't let so drastic things happen again...we must remember, ofcourse, but with some distance :D....

OK, enough of that official shit :D, Poles were great warriors, no doubt, and i agree, they gave Europe a lesson how to fight for freedome...the only problem is, that we are good in fighting for it, but weak in keeping it :), i hope some day it'll change...maybe it's time for a new uprising, this time against our government, which is situated next to the "country street", and people in there, are very close to a village behaviour :] CYA

I just finished watching a CNN special on the Warsaw Uprising and i have even MORE pride in myself as an american-pole. These people fought with the impression that the soviets would help them. They fought for 63 bloody days, each day thinking the COmmunist would help them. Even AFTER they found out that the Russians were actually killing thembecause they stood in the way of a greater Soviet union, they fought until they had no more to fight for. These men, women, and even children were heros. Anyone who shows disrespect for them are, and this is meant to offend you offenders of freedom, Nazi and or Communist loving freaks. The polish people have fought evil Empires before, and a pole saved Europe from becoming just another part of the Ottoman Empire. You owe your very way of life to us Poles and people of Polish descent, so dont you DARE insult our greatest heros.

These men, women, and even children were heros. Anyone who shows disrespect for them are, and this is meant to offend you offenders of freedom, Nazi and or Communist loving freaks.

Exactly what's wrong with Communism, in theory, I mean?

The polish people have fought evil Empires before, and a pole saved Europe from becoming just another part of the Ottoman Empire. You owe your very way of life to us Poles and people of Polish descent, so dont you DARE insult our greatest heros.

I don't think anyone should be insulted here, but don't you think saying "we" (which refers to who, exactly?) owe our way of life to you is just a BIT pompous? Maybe somewhat conceited? Inflammatory, even?

Just a thought.

I just finished watching a CNN special on the Warsaw Uprising and i have even MORE pride in myself as an american-pole. These people fought with the impression that the soviets would help them. They fought for 63 bloody days, each day thinking the COmmunist would help them. Even AFTER they found out that the Russians were actually killing thembecause they stood in the way of a greater Soviet union, they fought until they had no more to fight for. These men, women, and even children were heros. Anyone who shows disrespect for them are, and this is meant to offend you offenders of freedom, Nazi and or Communist loving freaks. The polish people have fought evil Empires before, and a pole saved Europe from becoming just another part of the Ottoman Empire. You owe your very way of life to us Poles and people of Polish descent, so dont you DARE insult our greatest heros.

You do have to admit though that Poland was hardly a democratic country in 1939, it was just less autocratic than Germany. Also the Poles developed a horrible defense plan for Poland, defending at the borders almost every area, instead of using natural obstacles to form their defenses. They were unwilling to give up the cause of the war, the Danzig corridor, which is a horrible place to put troops since it is easily cutoff by the Germans. Europe owes a lot to the Poles, but not so much as to say Poland is the citadel of freedom in Europe. Ironically Germany may owe it's existence to Poland, since the Polish stopped the Red Army in the 1920's during their war against them with Ukraine. Had Poland lost the Battle of Warsaw,the Bolshevik influence would have been far closer to Germany and the Red Front may have gained support.

The Soviets after destroying Army Group Centre had occupied a suburb of Warsaw, and were within marching distance of the city. This was the only chance the Home Army had if Poles were to restore Warsaw, they thought the Soviets would attack the Germans outside the city since they would be cutoff by the uprising, instead the Soviets didn't do a thing.
From what I heard about it on TV today, or rather yesterday, the Poles hoped
that the Germans would withdraw from Warsaw before the Soviets could "liberate" them. Like in Yugoslavia.

From what I heard about it on TV today, or rather yesterday, the Poles hoped
that the Germans would withdraw from Warsaw before the Soviets could "liberate" them. Like in Yugoslavia.

That is essentially what I meant, the Poles counted on the Germans retreating before advancing Soviet Armies (which in fact stopped), but they had to liberate the city before the Soviets entered, so they decided to gamble that if they rose up, the Germans would be far too busy retreating to bother to destroy them, and when the Soviets entered Warsaw would be Polish.

You do have to admit though that Poland was hardly a democratic country in 1939, it was just less autocratic than Germany. Also the Poles developed a horrible defense plan for Poland, defending at the borders almost every area, instead of using natural obstacles to form their defenses. They were unwilling to give up the cause of the war, the Danzig corridor, which is a horrible place to put troops since it is easily cutoff by the Germans. Europe owes a lot to the Poles, but not so much as to say Poland is the citadel of freedom in Europe. Ironically Germany may owe it's existence to Poland, since the Polish stopped the Red Army in the 1920's during their war against them with Ukraine. Had Poland lost the Battle of Warsaw,the Bolshevik influence would have been far closer to Germany and the Red Front may have gained support.

i do agree that Poland wasnt very democratic, but I was mainly talking about The Warsaw uprising (and the salvation of Europe against the Ottoman armies). Oh, and Poland and Germany used to be peas in a pod (prussia). I dont know how this came to happen, so i would like to ask if anyone knows how Germany and Poland were united into Prussia.(dont worry if your going OT, i made the thread so i make the rules :D)

i do agree that Poland wasnt very democratic, but I was mainly talking about The Warsaw uprising (and the salvation of Europe against the Ottoman armies). Oh, and Poland and Germany used to be peas in a pod (prussia). I dont know how this came to happen, so i would like to ask if anyone knows how Germany and Poland were united into Prussia.(dont worry if your going OT, i made the thread so i make the rules :D)

They weren't united into Prussia per se, Prussia existed before Germany (as a nation) technically did. Prussia had, after the Napoleonic Wars, split the independent Poland (it was only independent for a short time) between themselves, Russia, and Austria. This is how the region of Poland which Prussia controlled become so, basically the Northwest and Central western parts of Poland (Plus East Prussia, Posan was the major city). Russia got Central Poland (Warsaw included), and Austria got southern Poland (major city of Cracow and the fortress of Przymel).

In the 1860's, Kaiser (emperor) Whilhelm the I of Prussia appointed Otto Von Bismarck as his chancellor, a man who wanted to unite German speaking peoples under Prussia. First, he made an alliance with Austria (the major German speaking country of the time), and attacked Denmark, taking Schlewig-Holstein, and splitting it with Austria. The North German Confederation (basically most independent states of Northern Germany) was dominated by Prussia now, and the Southern Confederation was dominated by Austria.

In 1866 a conflict over the newly acquired Danish provinces (engineered by Bismarck) led to the Seven Week's War between Austria and Prussia, needless to say Prussia crushed Austria and became the dominant German power, Austria would go off on it's own ventures to dominate the Balkans later.

But now Bismarck needed to unify all the German states under Prussia, he had made Prussia a power and kicked Austria out of the picture, but he needed a threat for all the states to come under one banner. He found this in Napoleon III, the Emperor of the Second Empire of France. Napoleon did not want a relative of the Kaiser on the throne in Spain, and a diplomatic crossroads was reached. Bismarck carefully engineered a letter meant to offend the Emperor from the Kaiser, and Napoleon III declared war on Prussia, making France the aggressor. Seeing France as attacking Germany (as they had done and made them puppets in the Napoleonic Wars), the independent German States joined Prussia against France.

France was overwhelmed by Helmuth von Moltke the Greater leading the German armies, and surrounded the main French army at Sedan and captured Napoleon III. Nappy III surrendered France, and a Republic was declared (The Third Republic, which would last until 1940, but that is France). The Republic, with Paris under seige and undergoing what would become known as the Commune, was eager for peace. So, in a humiliating treaty signed in the palace of Versailles (yes, the same place the Versailles Treaty of WWI was signed), France agreed to pay reperations (a huge amount) and cede Alsace-Lorraine and Metz to the new German Empire. Kaiser Whilhelm I was proclaimed Emperor of all the German peoples in the Hall of Mirrors in Versailles.

So all the German states were now under one government, the German government, which was led by the Prussian King (the Kaiser). The German Empire would come to an end at the end of World War I when the Kaiser (Whilhelm II) left the throne and it was not taken up again, a republic was declared in the city of Weimar. What is commonly known as the Prussian Empire is the Second Reich (The First was the Holy Roman Empire, the Third was Nazi Germany)

Oh, and the dates along with it

End of the Holy Roman Empire - 1805
End of Napoleonic Wars - 1815
War Against Denmark - 1865
Seven Week's War - 1866
Franco-Prussian War - 1870-1871
Proclomation of the German Empire - 1871
Incorporation of Russian Poland into Germany after the treaty of Brest-Litovsk which ended the war between Germany and Russia - 1917
End of the German Empire - 1918

They weren't united into Prussia per se, Prussia existed before Germany (as a nation) technically did. Prussia had, after the Napoleonic Wars, split the independent Poland (it was only independent for a short time) between themselves, Russia, and Austria. This is how the region of Poland which Prussia controlled become so, basically the Northwest and Central western parts of Poland (Plus East Prussia, Posan was the major city). Russia got Central Poland (Warsaw included), and Austria got southern Poland (major city of Cracow and the fortress of Przymel).

In the 1860's, Kaiser (emperor) Whilhelm the I of Prussia appointed Otto Von Bismarck as his chancellor, a man who wanted to unite German speaking peoples under Prussia. First, he made an alliance with Austria (the major German speaking country of the time), and attacked Denmark, taking Schlewig-Holstein, and splitting it with Austria. The North German Confederation (basically most independent states of Northern Germany) was dominated by Prussia now, and the Southern Confederation was dominated by Austria.

In 1866 a conflict over the newly acquired Danish provinces (engineered by Bismarck) led to the Seven Week's War between Austria and Prussia, needless to say Prussia crushed Austria and became the dominant German power, Austria would go off on it's own ventures to dominate the Balkans later.

But now Bismarck needed to unify all the German states under Prussia, he had made Prussia a power and kicked Austria out of the picture, but he needed a threat for all the states to come under one banner. He found this in Napoleon III, the Emperor of the Second Empire of France. Napoleon did not want a relative of the Kaiser on the throne in Spain, and a diplomatic crossroads was reached. Bismarck carefully engineered a letter meant to offend the Emperor from the Kaiser, and Napoleon III declared war on Prussia, making France the aggressor. Seeing France as attacking Germany (as they had done and made them puppets in the Napoleonic Wars), the independent German States joined Prussia against France.

France was overwhelmed by Helmuth von Moltke the Greater leading the German armies, and surrounded the main French army at Sedan and captured Napoleon III. Nappy III surrendered France, and a Republic was declared (The Third Republic, which would last until 1940, but that is France). The Republic, with Paris under seige and undergoing what would become known as the Commune, was eager for peace. So, in a humiliating treaty signed in the palace of Versailles (yes, the same place the Versailles Treaty of WWI was signed), France agreed to pay reperations (a huge amount) and cede Alsace-Lorraine and Metz to the new German Empire. Kaiser Whilhelm I was proclaimed Emperor of all the German peoples in the Hall of Mirrors in Versailles.

So all the German states were now under one government, the German government, which was led by the Prussian King (the Kaiser). The German Empire would come to an end at the end of World War I when the Kaiser (Whilhelm II) left the throne and it was not taken up again, a republic was declared in the city of Weimar. What is commonly known as the Prussian Empire is the Second Reich (The First was the Holy Roman Empire, the Third was Nazi Germany)

Ahhhh, thanks. I knew only a little bit about the Franco-Prussian war, and i knew who Otto VOn Bismark was, what Austria is and such, but i didnt really know the history. Everything BEFORE World War I is baisically unknown to me, except for the fact that those Areas were invaded by the French Empire, and that they area of Modern Day Germany was really the only place invaded by Rome that wasnt conquered.

In the 1860's, Kaiser (emperor) Whilhelm the I of Prussia appointed Otto Von Bismarck as his chancellor, a man who wanted to unite German speaking peoples under Prussia. First, he made an alliance with Austria (the major German speaking country of the time), and attacked Denmark, taking Schlewig-Holstein, and splitting it with Austria. The North German Confederation (basically most independent states of Northern Germany) was dominated by Prussia now, and the Southern Confederation was dominated by Austria.
Well, Bismarck wasn't the only one. Democrats and Liberals alike wanted a united Germany. With a central government, a common army etc...the main reason for this was the French agression under Napoleon III. Who had tried to get terrotories from Italy. To restore Frances natural borders as he called it. The following conflict led to the unifecation of Italy in 1859. But Napoleons politics of restoring Frances natural borders could also be used on the left side of the Rhein river. That gave the German unification movement a boost. And since Prussia was the largests, most powerfull state they expected Prussia to take the first step in this matter.
As for Denmark. The Danish king, under pressure from Danish nationalists, split Schleswig from Holstein and annexed it. The German population of Schleswig turned to the German confedracy(Deutscher Bund) for help. And the members demanded of Prussia to put an end to this. Which they did.



But now Bismarck needed to unify all the German states under Prussia, he had made Prussia a power and kicked Austria out of the picture, but he needed a threat for all the states to come under one banner. He found this in Napoleon III, the Emperor of the Second Empire of France. Napoleon did not want a relative of the Kaiser on the throne in Spain, and a diplomatic crossroads was reached. Bismarck carefully engineered a letter meant to offend the Emperor from the Kaiser, and Napoleon III declared war on Prussia, making France the aggressor. Seeing France as attacking Germany (as they had done and made them puppets in the Napoleonic Wars), the independent German States joined Prussia against France.
The Emsbach depesche. It was a telegram to Bismarck from the King. In which he informed Bismarck about his meeting with the French emmisary.
The emissary was instructed by the Duke of Gramont, the French foreign secretary, to demand that Prussia would withdraw it's candidate for the Spanish throne. And that the King would have to promiss that never again a German prince would candidate to it. On top of that he demanded a personal letter from the King to Napoleon. In which the King would have to ask for his forgivness. Bismarck used this telegram. Scrapped out the diplomatic language of this already rude message, making it more readable, and published it in the papers.
Gramont made the mistake of wanting to get a diplomatic victory and a Prussian humiliation out of this.

I don't know if this was the Ghetto Uprising, or the Warsaw Uprising, but both were valient. To resist the mighty Nazi regime is a feat in itself. In both uprisings, the city was held for days, and they fought to the last man, women, and any able body there. For the Jews, it tragically ended at Auschwitz or Dacchau. And after the second Warsaw uprising, the city was flattened, and many were deported to concentration camps. They were heros every step of the way, and the second uprising would've suceeded had the Soviets not invaded.

Damn. the. Soviets.

Damn. the. Soviets.
Yep. They were the ones who eventually stopped the rebellion, as they wanted to make sure that their puppet roled Poland, and not the Polish resistence.

As I said, I will not get into an SS/Whermacht debate since it will end up OT, so I will concede the SS was more fanatical than the Whermacht, but are you sure about the T-34 and ISU-122, I wasn't aware the Kaminski Brigade used Soviet equipment, but again, since I do not have an OOB for it, I will concede.

Kaminski's brigade received 24 T-34/76s in 1943, all captured material, atleast 4 of those wer spotted in Warsaw together with one SU-76 (dont know where that came from though), the 2 122mm were captured earlier in the war by Kaminski.
You will never find a (complete)list of equipment of this unit, Kaminski did not document his equipment and the Waffen-SS refused to dociument any captured equipment (if they did it was usually incorrect)

I've seen someone saying as if it was him/her being in tak uprising, well, just one thing - those people were Poles, but we must remember, that it makes us proud, but we can't say as if it was us...we are just their children, and that's the connection, so, People from Poland - please, do not put Yourself above other just because of this incident...who knows what WE would do? every soldier is a hero in a way - he is fighting for someone, who he doesn't know really, and probably is just another puppet, so, we must be individual, and stop this politicians/assholes make us bleed for them...I respect THOSE people form Uprising for WHAT they did, not WHO they were, and that's the point ;)

I've seen someone saying as if it was him/her being in tak uprising, well, just one thing - those people were Poles, but we must remember, that it makes us proud, but we can't say as if it was us...we are just their children, and that's the connection, so, People from Poland - please, do not put Yourself above other just because of this incident...who knows what WE would do? every soldier is a hero in a way - he is fighting for someone, who he doesn't know really, and probably is just another puppet, so, we must be individual, and stop this politicians/assholes make us bleed for them...I respect THOSE people form Uprising for WHAT they did, not WHO they were, and that's the point ;)

Your right. If the Nazis had invaded my city i would have........ Hmmmm.... Well, i mean i WOULD have fought the Nazis... maybe... Or maybe id just do propaganda. Im VERY charismatic you know. :D

Your right. If the Nazis had invaded my city i would have........ Hmmmm.... Well, i mean i WOULD have fought the Nazis... maybe... Or maybe id just do propaganda. Im VERY charismatic you know. :D

I would have tried to stay with a Regular Army in the field (Like the Free French and various other exiled governments in Britain), becuase I don't think I would be suitable for partisan operations, and quite honestly, I could never take counting one someone else to come and liberate me, while engaging the occupying force.

I would have tried to stay with a Regular Army in the field (Like the Free French and various other exiled governments in Britain), becuase I don't think I would be suitable for partisan operations, and quite honestly, I could never take counting one someone else to come and liberate me, while engaging the occupying force.

That makes sense. Now that i think about it, getting shot by Nazi Occupyers in a smelly ditch doesnt ound like my piece of pie... i think id jsut join teh government in exile.

For folks in the US and interested in this-

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.warsaw.html

Warsaw Rising
The Polish rebellion against the Nazis
Saturday, July 31, 8 p.m.

This is good. I feel EVERYONE'S heroism should be discussed and recognized- in WW2, before that, and today.