NationStates Jolt Archive

A bit like the Pro-War protestors before the Vietnam War - Indoctrinated into a society of fear and allegiance to the throne. And then you always have the propoganda message of 'Supporting our boys' - this one always works - whatever the opposition to the War by popular majority before it happens, it dissapates as soon as 'our boys' go into conflict, a tool regurlarly used by Bush.

Back on topic - I remember hearing a pro-war protestor speak on FOX before the conflict. Here's what he had to say:

"The President needs our support, whether he is right or wrong The President and 'our boys' need to know that we are supporting them."

One of the greatest propoganda tools of the modern age - The 'Support Our Boys' tactic has never failed - as inevitable War inevitably drags even the most pacifistic along, and all because we need to 'support our boys'.

Thoughts?

Its just like nazi Germany

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Herman Goering would feel very at home in the Bush administration or if he had a job at foxnews

"Support our troops" and "support our president" are two different things. Two entirely different things.

Some people just haven't figured that out yet.

"Supporting the Boys" means respecting the sacrifice that they are prepared to make for thier country and not throwing away that sacrifice on a vanity war. These brave men and women have made a choice that I would not, indeed, can not make. I support their right to make that choice, respect their committment and their sacrifice, and will do all I can to damn well make sure that our government respects it as well. They're not just numbers. They're lives willing to give up the most precious gift they ever will recieve in order to protect an ideal they believe in. My part is to make sure that ideal is actually still there for them to defend.

I'd say that getting your troops out of a War Zone is supporting them. Unfortunately all the family members of those in the services think that it involves keeping them there while cheering them on from the sidelines.

Reminds me of a quote by a British Communist Party Leader in the 40's.

"But it is the Russians who are doing the dying, the killing and the winning - while we sit and pay tribute to them from the benches of the house of commons!"

Not to say I ideologically support American Troops. But I just like that quote alot.

"Supporting the Boys" means respecting the sacrifice that they are prepared to make for thier country and not throwing away that sacrifice on a vanity war. These brave men and women have made a choice that I would not, indeed, can not make. I support their right to make that choice, respect their committment and their sacrifice, and will do all I can to damn well make sure that our government respects it as well. They're not just numbers. They're lives willing to give up the most precious gift they ever will recieve in order to protect an ideal they believe in. My part is to make sure that ideal is actually still there for them to defend.
They arent sacrificing "for" their country. They are sacrificing for their corrupt and greedy president, for the throne of the US empire, for the US corporations who make billions by rebuilding Iraq, for the oil the US will get cheap from Iraq. The "boys" are a tool, the leading elite in the US doesnt give a flying shit what happens to the ordinary soldier. Feigning concern or sorrow to increase acceptance of the war at home. It worked in Nazi Germany and it works in the US, because ultimately, mankind is a herd of sheep that just needs to be herded properly to do the shepherds bidding.

"the issue is whether we want to live in a free society or whether we want to live under what amounts to a form of self-imposed totalitarianism, with the people marginalized, directed elsewhere, terrified, screaming patriotic slogans, fearing for their lives, and admiring with awe the leader who saved them from destruction, while the educated masses goose-step on command and repeat the slogans they're supposed to repeat and the society deteriorates at home. We end up serving as a mercenary enforcer state, hoping that others are going to pay us to smash up the world."

Anther great quote

They arent sacrificing "for" their country. They are sacrificing for their corrupt and greedy president, for the throne of the US empire, for the US corporations who make billions by rebuilding Iraq, for the oil the US will get cheap from Iraq. The "boys" are a tool, the leading elite in the US doesnt give a flying shit what happens to the ordinary soldier. Feigning concern or sorrow to increase acceptance of the war at home. It worked in Nazi Germany and it works in the US, because ultimately, mankind is a herd of sheep that just needs to be herded properly to do the shepherds bidding.

No, THEY are sacrificing for their country. The problem, as you state, is that their country is abandoning them by allowing the President to send them into harm's way for no good reason. That is the problem I work to overcome.

Here's what Teddy Roosevelt said in 1918:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him in so far as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth — whether about the President or about any one else — save in the rare cases where this would make known to the enemy information of military value which would otherwise be unknown to him."

Good quote, bad quote? Agree, disagree?

No, THEY are sacrificing for their country. The problem, as you state, is that their country is abandoning them by allowing the President to send them into harm's way for no good reason. That is the problem I work to overcome.

No, sacrificing for your country would be putting your life down to keep your country safe from a foreign threat to it's very life or the lives of it's citizens. Instead they are sacrificing their lives for a vague threat for which proof has yet to be put forward, on the word of only the President and his cabinet. So until it is proven that Iraq posed a threat to us then they are sacrificing themselves for a President who uses them as thugs and through him a country that ultimately does not give a damn about them becuase they don't know the soldier (otherwise the President wouldn't be there for long, we have this thing called the democratic process).

They arent sacrificing "for" their country. They are sacrificing for their corrupt and greedy president, for the throne of the US empire, for the US corporations who make billions by rebuilding Iraq, for the oil the US will get cheap from Iraq. The "boys" are a tool, the leading elite in the US doesnt give a flying shit what happens to the ordinary soldier. Feigning concern or sorrow to increase acceptance of the war at home. It worked in Nazi Germany and it works in the US, because ultimately, mankind is a herd of sheep that just needs to be herded properly to do the shepherds bidding.

Until your nation is perfect, please refrain from flaming the U.S. Flame our President, if you'd like, but don't flame the rest of us.

I remember the greatest pro war slogan that some anti war protestor came up with.

“Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.”

If only he would have brought it to its logical conclusion he/she/whatever would have realized its folly.

No, THEY are sacrificing for their country. The problem, as you state, is that their country is abandoning them by allowing the President to send them into harm's way for no good reason. That is the problem I work to overcome.
There's nothing in Iraq *for* the US other than financial profit for the US corporations. I can agree with your "sacrifice for the country" if the country is under direct threat of an attack on its soil. I cannot agree with your definition when the reason for the war was as arbitrary and based on lies as this one. The soldiers are helping the US president commit crimes - "they only follow orders" is a widely used excuse for all sorts of atrocities, which the Nazis tried to use aswell. Ultimately they had to answer for all the crimes against humanity, which they commited. I fully agree with that. However, there is no prosecutor against the US, other than the UN and world-wide protests against their path of destruction in the world. The soldiers are the long arm of the US to ensure that the new american century will happen as planned by the PNAC.

I remember the greatest pro war slogan that some anti war protestor came up with.

“Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.”

If only he would have brought it to its logical conclusion he/she/whatever would have realized its folly.

Actually, it was "Fighting for peace is like f****** for chastity," but they mean the same thing, so I guess it doesn't matter.

I pose you this question. When has the US ever intervened in a War on justifiable grounds?

WW2 was the only time I think, and maybe Korea (but Macarthur took it too far).

No, sacrificing for your country would be putting your life down to keep your country safe from a foreign threat to it's very life or the lives of it's citizens. Instead they are sacrificing their lives for a vague threat for which proof has yet to be put forward, on the word of only the President and his cabinet. So until it is proven that Iraq posed a threat to us then they are sacrificing themselves for a President who uses them as thugs and through him a country that ultimately does not give a damn about them becuase they don't know the soldier (otherwise the President wouldn't be there for long, we have this thing called the democratic process).

No, again, that's not the point. They signed up to protect their country. Because we have a President who doesn't value their lives or their sacrifice does not in anyway invalidate that sacrifice or the ideals they wish to defend. They made a clean and noble decision to protect their country, the President has muddied that. Their sacrifice is still noble and Bush should be ashamed and preparing himself for whatever hell awaits those who condemn others to death for their own political gain.

Until your nation is perfect, please refrain from flaming the U.S. Flame our President, if you'd like, but don't flame the rest of us.
My country does not wage wars worldwide and invent imaginary threats to justify wars. My country does not lie to the world community in the UN to rally support for an illegal war. My country does not violate human rights (if at all) as blatantly and aggressively as the US. I can be proud of my country, even though I am not proud of it's leader due to national issues.

The US populace has no reason whatsoever to be proud of their country right now.

Actually, it was "Fighting for peace is like f****** for chastity," but they mean the same thing, so I guess it doesn't matter.
No they don’t. In fact no two words in the English language are supposed to have the same meaning. Chastity is an oath to never have sex. Virginity is just describing somebody who hasn’t had sex yet, or possible ever. It’s not very specific.

The US populace has no reason whatsoever to be proud of their country right now.

You hit the nail on the head.

My country does not wage wars worldwide and invent imaginary threats to justify wars. My country does not lie to the world community in the UN to rally support for an illegal war. My country does not violate human rights (if at all) as blatantly and aggressively as the US. I can be proud of my country, even though I am not proud of it's leader due to national issues.

The US populace has no reason whatsoever to be proud of their country right now.

Oh, go bugger off. Just because we have an idiot in office right now doesn't mean we can't be proud.


Now, as to soldiers fighting, they fight for the country. It's their commander (guess who?) that's abandoning them and using them as numbers. Bless the troops, damn the president.

I pose you this question. When has the US ever intervened in a War on justifiable grounds?

WW2 was the only time I think, and maybe Korea (but Macarthur took it too far).

Gulf War I, intervention could be applied to that since the Iraqi's ivnaded Kuwait before the US was in the war. World War I is justifiable by most considerations, the Germans were intercepting nuetral shipping and sinking it without warning, causing US deaths. This was a reason we fought the War of 1812, except the British impressed US sailors, they didn't drown them. A German continental Europe could also pose a threat to the United States becuase the defeated nations would not pay back their war debt (which was huge for France and Britain).
I agree with you on Korea.

Oh, go bugger off. Just because we have an idiot in office right now doesn't mean we can't be proud.


Now, as to soldiers fighting, they fight for the country. It's their commander (guess who?) that's abandoning them and using them as numbers. Bless the troops, damn the president.
Your people voted the idiot in the office and so far failed to remove him. The threat that he will get another term is still at large. No, indeed, you have no reason to be proud of your country or your continuing failures in the world.

Oh, go bugger off. Just because we have an idiot in office right now doesn't mean we can't be proud.


Now, as to soldiers fighting, they fight for the country. It's their commander (guess who?) that's abandoning them and using them as numbers. Bless the troops, damn the president.
America should hang its head in shame if after knowing all they know now about Bush they re-elect him

My country does not wage wars worldwide and invent imaginary threats to justify wars. My country does not lie to the world community in the UN to rally support for an illegal war. My country does not violate human rights (if at all) as blatantly and aggressively as the US. I can be proud of my country, even though I am not proud of it's leader due to national issues.

The US populace has no reason whatsoever to be proud of their country right now.

I don't agree, but well put. I'll admit I'm not proud of my President or his corrupt, Hitlerite administration, but I am proud of my country's constitution(when it's obeyed) and its heritage. I commend you for making your point without flaming. By the way, what is your country? Germany, correct? (Just curious)

Your people voted the idiot in the office and so far failed to remove him. The threat that he will get another term is still at large. No, indeed, you have no reason to be proud of your country or your continuing failures in the world.
that is false--Bush was not elected he was appointed and theres many americans who patriotically hate him

I don't agree, but well put. I'll admit I'm not proud of my President or his corrupt, Hitlerite administration, but I am proud of my country's constitution(when it's obeyed) and its heritage. I commend you for making your point without flaming. By the way, what is your country? Germany, correct? (Just curious)
Correct. And before you point out the mistakes our leader(s) did in the past, dont bother. They will fall on deaf ears.

1812 is a War on misconceptions - alot of the uprising was based around tax on imports.

Gulf War I: Erm no, Saddam's reasoning for the invasion was based around the unfair creation of Kuwait after the British left. And Saddam was right - Kuwaitis were mistreating Iraqi women - they were treated as slaves.
Also the 'big build up of troops' on the saudi border which provided the final pretext for War was a lie - The U.S still refuses to provide evidence of this big build of troops.

I pose you this question. When has the US ever intervened in a War on justifiable grounds?

Never.

WW2 was the only time I think, and maybe Korea (but Macarthur took it too far).

He just wanted to win, is all. What's wrong with that?

My country does not wage wars worldwide and invent imaginary threats to justify wars. My country does not lie to the world community in the UN to rally support for an illegal war. My country does not violate human rights (if at all) as blatantly and aggressively as the US. I can be proud of my country, even though I am not proud of it's leader due to national issues.

What country is that? You forgot to actually mention it's name.

Your people voted the idiot in the office and so far failed to remove him. The threat that he will get another term is still at large. No, indeed, you have no reason to be proud of your country or your continuing failures in the world.

Wow, no hostility there whatsoever.

Hey genius? He didn't get the popular vote.

And I have plenty to be proud of without dickheads like you trying to tell me to be shameful. I hate the leadership, not the country, and you should do the same.

"America should hang its head in shame if after knowing all they know now about Bush they re-elect him"

He will be reelected - The ideas of affordable healthcare are ridiculous. I mean what kind of whacko liberal wants all people to have the right to a basic standard of living and healthcare?

Correct. And before you point out the mistakes our leader(s) did in the past, dont bother. They will fall on deaf ears.

I won't point out your nation's leaders' past mistakes. After all, what country doesn't have its leaders who made past mistakes?

I support our boys. I think them being in Iraq isn't good for them. But now that they're there, we have to win the war.

Think of it this way: pretty soon, Bush is going to be one of those "wow, that was a bad president, but at least he's gone!"

Your people voted the idiot in the office and so far failed to remove him. The threat that he will get another term is still at large. No, indeed, you have no reason to be proud of your country or your continuing failures in the world.
Actually he’s in because Gore backed down and conceded.

"America should hang its head in shame if after knowing all they know now about Bush they re-elect him"

He will be reelected - The ideas of affordable healthcare are ridiculous. I mean what kind of whacko liberal wants all people to have the right to a basic standard of living and healthcare?
if this ends up being true then Gigatron is correct--america has nothing to be proud of with a traitor in the White House. This is a chance for the American people to prove that theyre not the played suckers Bush thinks they are and if they fail this test then America will fall from its own stupidity

There's nothing in Iraq *for* the US other than financial profit for the US corporations. I can agree with your "sacrifice for the country" if the country is under direct threat of an attack on its soil. I cannot agree with your definition when the reason for the war was as arbitrary and based on lies as this one.

I don't see how this makes any difference to the reason the average ground trooper signed up. This is a leadership problem, not theirs.


The soldiers are helping the US president commit crimes - "they only follow orders" is a widely used excuse for all sorts of atrocities, which the Nazis tried to use aswell. Ultimately they had to answer for all the crimes against humanity, which they commited. I fully agree with that. However, there is no prosecutor against the US, other than the UN and world-wide protests against their path of destruction in the world. The soldiers are the long arm of the US to ensure that the new american century will happen as planned by the PNAC.

Ah, good, then I'm sure you'll want to take the whole of the Russian army to court for Afghanistan and Chechnya, the whole of the UK army to court for the Faulklands, and the whole of the French army to court for pretty much the whole of Africa.

The point is that the original commitment and sacrifice is noble, even if this particular action isn't, and you can't judge the whole of the institution by the mistakes of the command, otherwise every country, every single one of them, has a lot of explaining to do.

I won't point out your nation's leaders' past mistakes. After all, what country doesn't have its leaders who made past mistakes?
all hes saying is that it would be a big mistake for us not to fight the current Hitler in the world today-the one in the White House

The point is that the original commitment and sacrifice is noble, even if this particular action isn't, and you can't judge the whole of the institution by the mistakes of the command, otherwise every country, every single one of them, has a lot of explaining to do.
Always remember that when you talk about Germany :)

Identification with onces country is a good thing.
Patriotism is good. However superiority feelings towards others is bad.
I like the statement: "A patriot is one who loves his country. A nationalist is one who hates the countries of others."

By the way: I think you can be proud for what you yourself have archieved. But you yourself only have responsibilty of your own actions.
There is never any collective guilt, guilt is always individual. Therefore it is for example nonsense to talk about "the evil white southerners" or the evil White South African or Germans or whatsoever.

Noam Chomsky just replied to my email.

Noam Chomsky just replied to my email.
post what he said

all hes saying is that it would be a big mistake for us not to fight the current Hitler in the world today-the one in the White House
Your statement is outrageous. You can´t compare the legitimate president of the United States of America with one of the worst dictators in human history. Shame on you. You disqulified yourself from any further discussions.

"Interested to hear about your plans and concerns. It's hard to answer your question, though. There is of course a huge literature, including excellent professional journals. The published literature ranges from general commentary to highly specific academic studies. There is also a treasure trove of declassified documents. It's really a matter of what you are looking for."

Noam Chomsky

You know, Comparing Bush to hitler is like... COmparing Cheese to pie or something! Bush isnt Raacist, he AHSNT sent millions of jews to die in concentration camps, he hasnt invaded all of Europe and he HASNT banned all government parties, he HASNT made "THe Bush Youth" and made all its members, which is every child over 10 years old, go fight on the field of Russia. He HASNT been bombing London with V-2s. and the list can go ON and On. Know while i will be discredited as a "Fox Watching Bush Zombie", i am afraid that i have to say i support our troops and that they havent comited anything wrong(except or a few bad apples). I mean, everyone Blaims AMERICA for the troubles int eh war. HAve you guys forgotten that BRITISH troops Tortured IRaqis too? Or are you going to overlookt aht because "Bush is a psycopathic Murdering Hitler CLone!". Ibet half of you guys think "CApitol HIll BLue" is the truth. When you join the U.S. Armed forces, you are baisically surrendering your life to the u.S. Government. Those are brave men and women, sacrificing their lives for Freedom and Democracy. Yu can Blam my president, but you can NEVER blam our soldiers. They are ALL that protect the World from COmmunism, Terrorism, and Anarchism. If you want us to Disband the army FINE, i'll see you in the Communist Concentration Camps.

I apologise for my bad typing , i dont feel like wasting my good typing on most of you.

Your statement is outrageous. You can´t compare the legitimate president of the United States of America with one of the worst dictators in human history. Shame on you. You disqulified yourself from any further discussions.
besides the death camps, George Bush is identitcal to Hitler

Always remember that when you talk about Germany :)

Again, though, I haven't seen you post the actual name of this country that you're so proud of, but I have seen you already try and short circuit your own logic being applied back to you.

So yes, I do always remember that about Germany, and that's why I work hard here in the US to make sure Bush is gone next year and nothing but a horrible blot on our record.

All I'm seeing you do so far is condemn an entire country you have no vested interest in while saying your own country is above the metric you're applying.

besides the death camps, George Bush is identitcal to Hitler

Oh, the hell he is, TRA, and you darn well know that. Knock it off, it's getting boring.

"Interested to hear about your plans and concerns. It's hard to answer your question, though. There is of course a huge literature, including excellent professional journals. The published literature ranges from general commentary to highly specific academic studies. There is also a treasure trove of declassified documents. It's really a matter of what you are looking for."

Noam Chomsky
NS NEEDS Noam CHomsky

besides the death camps, George Bush is identitcal to Hitler

MKULTRA, are you, by any chance, not american and/or a hippie?

You know, Comparing Bush to hitler is like... COmparing Cheese to pie or something! Bush isnt Raacist, he AHSNT sent millions of jews to die in concentration camps, he hasnt invaded all of Europe and he HASNT banned all government parties, he HASNT made "THe Bush Youth" and made all its members, which is every child over 10 years old, go fight on the field of Russia. He HASNT been bombing London with V-2s. and the list can go ON and On. Know while i will be discredited as a "Fox Watching Bush Zombie", i am afraid that i have to say i support our troops and that they havent comited anything wrong(except or a few bad apples). I mean, everyone Blaims AMERICA for the troubles int eh war. HAve you guys forgotten that BRITISH troops Tortured IRaqis too? Or are you going to overlookt aht because "Bush is a psycopathic Murdering Hitler CLone!". Ibet half of you guys think "CApitol HIll BLue" is the truth. When you join the U.S. Armed forces, you are baisically surrendering your life to the u.S. Government. Those are brave men and women, sacrificing their lives for Freedom and Democracy. Yu can Blam my president, but you can NEVER blam our soldiers. They are ALL that protect the World from COmmunism, Terrorism, and Anarchism. If you want us to Disband the army FINE, i'll see you in the Communist Concentration Camps.
give it time--its only Bushs first term and whose to say that he wont declare martial law if he sponcers another terrorist assault on American soil

Careful what you say about Bush. Fat Smelly Bastards might call you a 'jerko,' lol! ;)

Careful what you say about Bush. Fat Smelly Bastards might call you a 'jerko,' lol! ;)

Who are you saying that too?

Again, though, I haven't seen you post the actual name of this country that you're so proud of, but I have seen you already try and short circuit your own logic being applied back to you.

So yes, I do always remember that about Germany, and that's why I work hard here in the US to make sure Bush is gone next year and nothing but a horrible blot on our record.

All I'm seeing you do so far is condemn an entire country you have no vested interest in while saying your own country is above the metric you're applying.
I see the US through their current political representative and their world wide actions. I'll congratulate you, once you have defeated Bush and turned US foreign policy around.

MKULTRA, are you, by any chance, not american and/or a hippie?
no but I smoke a lot of weed and I think the people should be free

Who are you saying that too?

No one, I was just joking. Usually, whenever someone says anything even remotely bad about Bush, FSB starts flaming the hell out of them.

Originally Posted by Berkylvania
The point is that the original commitment and sacrifice is noble, even if this particular action isn't, and you can't judge the whole of the institution by the mistakes of the command, otherwise every country, every single one of them, has a lot of explaining to do.Always remember that when you talk about Germany :)
And yet you apply a double standard when talking about the US.

Your people voted the idiot in the office and so far failed to remove him. The threat that he will get another term is still at large. No, indeed, you have no reason to be proud of your country or your continuing failures in the world.
(emphasis added)

No one, I was just joking. Usually, whenever someone says anything even remotely bad about Bush, FSB starts flaming the hell out of them.

OOOOOHHHH!

Whenever someone says something remotly bad about bush, i Argue with them, but i TRY not to flame. Some times im so caught up though that i go overboard...

MKULTRA, are you, by any chance, not american and/or a hippie?

Oooh. He called you a "hippy". Come on, that's hardly an insult.

Most countries and hippies don't think Bush is akin to Hitler. They just think he's a terrible president for such a kickass country like america.

I see the US through their current political representative and their world wide actions. I'll congratulate you, once you have defeated Bush and turned US foreign policy around.
What do you mean, Giga??? That the US overthrew the Taliban regime in Afghanistan who gave save heaven to Osama bin Laden and Al-Quida??
Or that they overthrew one of the worst dictatorship in the Middle East which caused hundreds of thousands of deaths???

Well, what is "evil" about that?????

I see the US through their current political representative and their world wide actions. I'll congratulate you, once you have defeated Bush and turned US foreign policy around.

Hey, that's great. I'll congratulate us too because I'm still not entirely convinced we can do it. However, the point still stands, how can you honestly do that without allowing others to hold up the same standard to your own country. For someone who seems rather proud of it, you seem equally concerned about any actual inspection of it.

What do you mean, Giga??? That the US overthrew the Taliban regime in Afghanistan who gave save heaven to Osama bin Laden and Al-Quida??
Or that they overthrew one of the worst dictatorship in the Middle East which caused hundreds of thousands of deaths???

Well, what is "evil" about that?????

I agree, even if bush IS evil, the regimes he overthrew were more-so.

And yet you apply a double standard when talking about the US.


(emphasis added)
In a democracy, those who have the powers to prevent crimes committed by their leaders, and do not use them, are equally responsible of committing the crime, as their elected leader. Bush does not hinder you from impeaching him. It is your responsibility to bring him down from his throne and turn the US policies around so it is no longer a threat to mankind.

Noam Chomsky also told me to tell the republicans on this board that they were 'n00bs' and that he could 'pwn' them in a debate.

Noam Chomsky really does own.

besides the death camps, George Bush is identitcal to Hitler

how so?

In a democracy, those who have the powers to prevent crimes committed by their leaders, and do not use them, are equally responsible of committing the crime, as their elected leader. Bush does not hinder you from impeaching him. It is your responsibility to bring him down from his throne and turn the US policies around so it is no longer a threat to mankind.

Well, that's just it, isn't it. We don't live in a true democracy, this is a representative republic at best. This means actual political power is abstracted from the people. As for the impeachment, show us the crime he's committed and we'll draw up the articles. Don't just show us an implied crime, but the actual crime that he has committed through his own action. It might also interest you to know that articles of impeachment have been drawn up. Further, it might interest you to know that all an impeachment is is an indictment, not an actual removal. There still has to be a trial, hence the need for concrete proof of actual illegal conduct.

I agree, even if bush IS evil, the regimes he overthrew were more-so.

Agreed.

Noam Chomsky also told me to tell the republicans on this board that they were 'n00bs' and that he could 'pwn' them in a debate.


OMFG!!!!111111 Teh CHomsky launches 12666555000 nooks at your country!!!

What do you mean, Giga??? That the US overthrew the Taliban regime in Afghanistan who gave save heaven to Osama bin Laden and Al-Quida??
Or that they overthrew one of the worst dictatorship in the Middle East which caused hundreds of thousands of deaths???

Well, what is "evil" about that?????
because the Bush family were the ones to put the taliban in power in the first place and when Poppa Bush was watching americans die at the twin towers on a TV screen while drinking champaign with the Bin Ladens

I remember the greatest pro war slogan that some anti war protestor came up with.

“Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.”

If only he would have brought it to its logical conclusion he/she/whatever would have realized its folly.
Someone had that sign confiscated at a rally. I thought that was fucking appalling.

Someone had that sign confiscated at a rally. I thought that was fucking appalling.

Were young ladies with signs reading "The only Bush I trust is my own" similarly treated in your country?

What do you mean, Giga??? That the US overthrew the Taliban regime in Afghanistan who gave save heaven to Osama bin Laden and Al-Quida??
Or that they overthrew one of the worst dictatorship in the Middle East which caused hundreds of thousands of deaths???

Well, what is "evil" about that?????

I think it's more of Bush's attitude to other countries. "Cowards" or not, he must respect the UN. And so far he has hardly done that. He refused to sign the landmine treaty, and disallowed American soldiers [and himself] from being tried for war crimes.

Also, he is bad for anyone who cares about civil rights and the environment, and seeing as how a progressively tolerant world and a better protected environment are far more important than the killing of any number of terrorists, that is why he is in the negative zone in most of the world's books.

because the Bush family were the ones to put the taliban in power in the first place and when Poppa Bush was watching americans die at the twin towers on a TV screen while drinking champaign with the Bin Ladens

Wasn't he at a school at the time the Twin Towers went down? Also, how he did his family put the Taliban in power? I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just curious.

Noam Chomsky also told me to tell the republicans on this board that they were 'n00bs' and that he could 'pwn' them in a debate.

Noam Chomsky really does own.
can you email Chomsky and tell him to join NS?

Well, that's just it, isn't it. We don't live in a true democracy, this is a representative republic at best. This means actual political power is abstracted from the people. As for the impeachment, show us the crime he's committed and we'll draw up the articles. Don't just show us an implied crime, but the actual crime that he has committed through his own action. It might also interest you to know that articles of impeachment have been drawn up. Further, it might interest you to know that all an impeachment is is an indictment, not an actual removal. There still has to be a trial, hence the need for concrete proof of actual illegal conduct.
I would say, leading a nation into an illegal war, increasing terrorism worldwide, condoning violations of human rights and violating several international laws aswell as commander-in-chief condoning the atrocities of war crimes against the Iraqi civilian population and others in multiple countries world wide, should be reason enough. I am not aware enough of US laws, but Bush has done much worse than Clinton ever did and Clinton had to suffer much more problems at home simply by having a blowjob and lieing about it. Bush deserves trial before the US courts and afterwards the ICC/ICJ, so he can answer for the same crimes, other world leaders had to answer for during history.

In a democracy, those who have the powers to prevent crimes committed by their leaders, and do not use them, are equally responsible of committing the crime, as their elected leader. Bush does not hinder you from impeaching him. It is your responsibility to bring him down from his throne and turn the US policies around so it is no longer a threat to mankind.

Blabbering about how we've failed to remove Bush doesn't hide the fact that you apply a double standard when examining the United States and any other country. When we consider the nature of Nazi Germany you are filled with self-pity characteristic of a nationalist who implores us to forgive your German people, after all they are good folk, but condemn your leaders like Hitler. Yet you reserve no criticism for the United States, you say we have absolutely nothing to be proud of about our nation. Thus your feelings toward the United States are not rooted in sound reasoning but in a gut-instinct hatred of not only America leaders like Bush, but also America itself. You leave no room for those Americans who oppose Bush yet love their country.

I think it's more of Bush's attitude to other countries. "Cowards" or not, he must respect the UN. And so far he has hardly done that. He refused to sign the landmine treaty, and disallowed American soldiers [and himself] from being tried for war crimes.

What's wrong with that? War criminals, regardless of where they're from, should be tried by their own countries. Whether he respects the UN or not, I myself do not respect it. After all, what they did to Katanga was pretty awful...

I would say, leading a nation into an illegal war, increasing terrorism worldwide, condoning violations of human rights and violating several international laws aswell as commander-in-chief condoning the atrocities of war crimes against the Iraqi civilian population and others in multiple countries world wide, should be reason enough. I am not aware enough of US laws, but Bush has done much worse than Clinton ever did and Clinton had to suffer much more problems at home simply by having a blowjob and lieing about it. Bush deserves trial before the US courts and afterwards the ICC/ICJ, so he can answer for the same crimes, other world leaders had to answer for during history.

Great. Again, though, where's the evidence? I'm telling you, dude, if you can give me a smoking gun like Clinton's unfortunate remark on the stand under oath, I'll work to get it out there. So far, though, he's squeaky clean.

can you email Chomsky and tell him to join NS?

Hahaha, I really doubt he would. But it would be great if Noam Chomsky actually came to NS and went into a debating match with the Republicans.

Blabbering about how we've failed to remove Bush doesn't hide the fact that you apply a double standard when examining the United States and any other country. When we consider the nature of Nazi Germany you are filled with self-pity characteristic of a nationalist who implores us to forgive your German people, after all they are good folk, but condemn your leaders like Hitler. Yet you reserve no criticism for the United States, you say we have absolutely nothing to be proud of about our nation. Thus your feelings toward the United States are not rooted in sound reasoning but in a gut-instinct hatred of not only America leaders like Bush, but also America itself. You leave no room for those Americans who oppose Bush yet love their country.

Exactly. Very well stated. Any criticism being leveled at the US and Bush from an international standpoint must also be available to be applied to other countries, else the accusor is just as guilty as those he accuses.

Blabbering about how we've failed to remove Bush doesn't hide the fact that you apply a double standard when examining the United States and any other country. When we consider the nature of Nazi Germany you are filled with self-pity characteristic of a nationalist who implores us to forgive your German people, after all they are good folk, but condemn your leaders like Hitler. Yet you reserve no criticism for the United States, you say we have absolutely nothing to be proud of about our nation. Thus your feelings toward the United States are not rooted in sound reasoning but in a gut-instinct hatred of not only America leaders like Bush, but also America itself. You leave no room for those Americans who oppose Bush yet love their country.
Currently I hate America, yes. This was not the case before Bush came to power. Thank him and those who elected him. He is the reason why currently, I refuse to buy anything from America and try to stay away from American culture as much as possible. The PNAC documents made me aware of just how much of a threat the US are to the world.

how so?
Like Hitler, Bush needs a scapegoat-enemy to enact his corporate -facist agenda- like Hitler, Bush has zero regard for human life when it comes to advancing his evil PNAC agenda-like Hitler, Bush exploits fear to enslave the people and like Hitler Bush is a true believing vacant eyed extremist who is totally disconnected from reality

Blabbering about how we've failed to remove Bush doesn't hide the fact that you apply a double standard when examining the United States and any other country. When we consider the nature of Nazi Germany you are filled with self-pity characteristic of a nationalist who implores us to forgive your German people, after all they are good folk, but condemn your leaders like Hitler. Yet you reserve no criticism for the United States, you say we have absolutely nothing to be proud of about our nation. Thus your feelings toward the United States are not rooted in sound reasoning but in a gut-instinct hatred of not only America leaders like Bush, but also America itself. You leave no room for those Americans who oppose Bush yet love their country.

Good points! However, I'd like to add a few things...

A) Hitler was an American-made monster. It was Woodrow Wilson's barbarous mistreatment of the Germans that led to the mass starvations and poverty that gave rise to the Nazis.

B)Hitler made Germany the powerful war-machine it was with Western aid. Read 'Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler' by Antony Sutton for more details.

C)Why should Germans be ashamed of Hitler? They're great people. They are in no way responsible for Hitler's actions. Even those who elected him are not to blame. Germany's economy was in the toilet, millions were starving to death, and the people were desperate for a leader who would bring better times. When they voted for him, they never thought, "Well, he might become a genocidal tyrant, but we'll vote for him if he can help us." They simply voted in the way they thought was best for their country, so their patriotism should not be condemned.

D)Also, today's Germans are among the most staunchly anti-Hitler people in the world, so bringing up the atrocities of the Nazis to try and make them feel ashamed is pointless.

Exactly. Very well stated. Any criticism being leveled at the US and Bush from an international standpoint must also be available to be applied to other countries, else the accusor is just as guilty as those he accuses.
Go ahead and criticize my country if you find anything worth criticizing about. The WW2 arguments are long outdated though, so find something more recent please, which I can possibly do something against.

Go ahead and criticize my country if you find anything worth criticizing about. The WW2 arguments are long outdated though, so find something more recent please, which I can possibly do something against.

Well, at least you're narrowing it down, even though you have yet to still actually name this country you apparently take so much pride in. I'm assuming we're talking about Germany or Japan here (although I guess it could be Italy or perhaps France as well...I imagine we're safe, though, in assuming it's not Iceland). Either way, I have no interest in criticizing anyone's country because, as has been mentioned, no country's record is clean. The point is, though, you can not blame an entire nation of people because of the actions of their leader and not at least allow your own country to be subject to the same hideous generalization of blame. It's at best hypocritical and jingoistic..

Wasn't he at a school at the time the Twin Towers went down? Also, how he did his family put the Taliban in power? I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just curious.yes its true Bush Jr was using schoolkids as human shields on 911 but Im talking about Bushs father who was at a power lunch with the Bin Ladens on exactly 911 and watching the towers collapse with the very family of those who attacked us--on 911 when america was under direct attack the Bushs were huddled with their Saudi owners and nowhere to be found rallying the american people--Bush put the taliban in power after the Afghan war-The CIA founded the taliban and Osama worked for Bushs father in the CIA under the codename Tim Osman--draw your own conclusions but I think it reeks

Well, at least you're narrowing it down, even though you have yet to still actually name this country you apparently take so much pride in. I'm assuming we're talking about Germany or Japan here. Either way, I have no interest in criticizing anyone's country because, as has been mentioned, no country's record is clean. The point is, though, you can not blame an entire nation of people because of the actions of their leader and not at least allow your own country to be subject to the same hideous generalization of blame. It's at best hypocritical and jingoistic..

You make an excellent point.

Im talking about Bushs father who was at a power lunch with the Bin Ladens on exactly 911 and watching the towers collapse with the very family of those who attacked us--on 911 when america was under direct attack the Bushs were huddled with their Saudi owners and nowhere to be found rallying the american people--Bush put the taliban in power after the Afghan war-The CIA founded the taliban and Osama worked for Bushs father in the CIA under the codename Tim Osman--draw your own conclusions but I think it reeks

Interesting...However, the CIA did not 'found' the Taliban. Aid it, yes. Help give birth to it, yes. But they did not outright found it.

Hahaha, I really doubt he would. But it would be great if Noam Chomsky actually came to NS and went into a debating match with the Republicans.
tell him he can have his own nation and he can even call it Palestine if he wants

Interesting...However, the CIA did not 'found' the Taliban. Aid it, yes. Help give birth to it, yes. But they did not outright found it.

Found, no.

Fund, maybe.

Great. Again, though, where's the evidence? I'm telling you, dude, if you can give me a smoking gun like Clinton's unfortunate remark on the stand under oath, I'll work to get it out there. So far, though, he's squeaky clean.
very "squeaky clean" only because he was devious enough to refuse to take oaths knowing full well that hes lying thru his teeth--btw has anyone seen Neil Bush lately? those scrubbing bubbles seemed to have washed him clear away

If I went out right now and shot a bunch of people do you think it would be right to hate my family, and accuse them of murder?
MK, just because Osama bin Laden organized a bombing of the towers does not mean that his family are terrorists. Apparently, his family hates him and thinks that he is a bad example of a human being, so...


...the very family that bombed us.

Currently I hate America, yes. This was not the case before Bush came to power. Thank him and those who elected him. He is the reason why currently, I refuse to buy anything from America and try to stay away from American culture as much as possible. The PNAC documents made me aware of just how much of a threat the US are to the world.
As an American myself I can easily sympathize how a foreigner could have this opinion-Im an American and I hate what this country has become under the poisonous influence of the wretched Bush crime family-John Kerry will have to spend his entire 4 years just healing all the deep rifts and economic devastation that Bushs divisive reign has created

Well, at least you're narrowing it down, even though you have yet to still actually name this country you apparently take so much pride in. I'm assuming we're talking about Germany or Japan here (although I guess it could be Italy or perhaps France as well...I imagine we're safe, though, in assuming it's not Iceland). Either way, I have no interest in criticizing anyone's country because, as has been mentioned, no country's record is clean. The point is, though, you can not blame an entire nation of people because of the actions of their leader and not at least allow your own country to be subject to the same hideous generalization of blame. It's at best hypocritical and jingoistic..
As I already said, go ahead and criticize my country if you find anything worth criticizing. I already said in a page before this one that I am German by confirming someone elses question about me being German. You may criticize Hitler and lo-and-behold, I'll actually agree with you. How Hitler was able to stay in power and how he got to power, will easily invalidate all your criticism on the German people though, so don't even try.

Today I am not aware of anything worth criticizing Germany for.

Besides this, we're talking about the US here and what the US population is expected to do to repair their image in the world. You may chose to do it and fight to succeed at it, or see how world wide terrorism continues to increase, until the US lies in ruins.

very "squeaky clean" only because he was devious enough to refuse to take oaths knowing full well that hes lying thru his teeth--btw has anyone seen Neil Bush lately? those scrubbing bubbles seemed to have washed him clear away

Same challenge to you, TRA, then. Gimme a smoking gun. I'm not talking about speculation or innuendo or "Well, he probably knew about it." I'm talking about clear evidence that he willingly and knowingly broke a law. It offended me greatly when the Republicans drug the nation and the Presidency through the impeachment of Clinton, but even then they at least had some evidence. The same criteria must be applied here. If you're going to level an impeachment against Bush, you darn well better have something concrete to back it up, otherwise it's just pointless partisan politics.

@Giga,

you are talking nonsense. First of all: guilt is individual not collective. A person can only be responsible for his/her action not for the action of others. That would be like blaming all Arabs for terrorism, all Germans for Hitler, all White South Africans for Apartheid, all white Southerners for slavery, e.g.
That is not acceptable.

And by the way: there is no major decision the US has to apologize for. Toppling the Taliban - the regime which gave safe heaven to bin Laden and Al-Quaida - and Saddam Hussain - the worst dictator of the middle east - is really nothing the US has and should apologize for.

If I went out right now and shot a bunch of people do you think it would be right to hate my family, and accuse them of murder?
MK, just because Osama bin Laden organized a bombing of the towers does not mean that his family are terrorists. Apparently, his family hates him and thinks that he is a bad example of a human being, so...that may be true but dont you think the irony of Bushs father meeting with the Bin Ladens on exactly 911 is more then just a little grotesteque? And why did Bush evacuate his family without at least letting them be questioned by the FBI? how do we know for sure his family is really estranged from Osama or thats not just another Bush lie?

America will repair its world image by succeeding in Iraq. Give us as much time to rebuild that country as we had to rebuilt Western Europe after WW2, and it will be done.
Besides, I'm tired of hearing others say our dip in popularity should dictate our actions. When did "doing the right thing" and "doing the popular thing" become the same?

@Giga,

you are talking nonsense. First of all: guilt is individual not collective. A person can only be responsible for his/her action not for the action of others. That would be like blaming all Arabs for terrorism, all Germans for Hitler, all White South Africans for Apartheid, all white Southerners for slavery, e.g.
That is not acceptable.

And by the way: there is no major decision the US has to apologize for. Toppling the Taliban - the regime which gave safe heaven to bin Laden and Al-Quaida - and Saddam Hussain - the worst dictator of the middle east - is really nothing the US has and should apologize for.
I disagree. The US are not the owners of the world. They may defend themselves on their own soil and otherwise act if the UN asks them to. Everyhting else is against international law and thus not excusable, no matter how noble the goal. I am not so much worried about *what* the US did in Afghanistan or Iraq (the greater picture), but how they go about doing it, ignoring the majority of mankind in their quest of "americanizing" the world.

that may be true but dont you think the irony of Bushs father meeting with the Bin Ladens on exactly 911 is more then just a little grotesteque? And why did Bush evacuate his family without at least letting them be questioned by the FBI? how do we know for sure his family is really estranged from Osama or thats not just another Bush lie?
Are you still harping on that Moore lie? The 9/11 Report disproved that claim.

Same challenge to you, TRA, then. Gimme a smoking gun. I'm not talking about speculation or innuendo or "Well, he probably knew about it." I'm talking about clear evidence that he willingly and knowingly broke a law. It offended me greatly when the Republicans drug the nation and the Presidency through the impeachment of Clinton, but even then they at least had some evidence. The same criteria must be applied here. If you're going to level an impeachment against Bush, you darn well better have something concrete to back it up, otherwise it's just pointless partisan politics.
maybe not under oath but at least on TV, Bush repeatedly lied about Iraqi WMDS and links between Saddam and al queda that never existed

As I already said, go ahead and criticize my country if you find anything worth criticizing. I already said in a page before this one that I am German by confirming someone elses question about me being German. You may criticize Hitler and lo-and-behold, I'll actually agree with you. How Hitler was able to stay in power and how he got to power, will easily invalidate all your criticism on the German people though, so don't even try.

Today I am not aware of anything worth criticizing Germany for.

Other than rampant xenophobia? And I'm sorry I missed it where you identified yourself as German and I apologize for anything I said after that point. And as I said before, I have no interest in criticizing anyone's country, certainly not on the basis of actions that happened nearly a century ago. However, the point still stands that you are quick to judge a country while not allowing those same standards to be equally applied. This not only calls your whole argument itself into question, but your reasons for making it in the first place.


Besides this, we're talking about the US here and what the US population is expected to do to repair their image in the world. You may chose to do it and fight to succeed at it, or see how world wide terrorism continues to increase, until the US lies in ruins.

Well, true enough, but that wasn't your charge now, was it? You were bashing the entire country and everyone in it because you don't like the actions of our leaders, which is not only offensive, but pointless and unproductive. This sort of process is wrong when anyone does it, be it a US citizen or a German citizen.

Not to criticize, as I do think this is relevant, but the same excuse you use to claim clarity for Germany in regards to Hitler is the same reason we're having trouble with Bush right now.

@Giga,

you are talking nonsense. First of all: guilt is individual not collective. A person can only be responsible for his/her action not for the action of others. That would be like blaming all Arabs for terrorism, all Germans for Hitler, all White South Africans for Apartheid, all white Southerners for slavery, e.g.
That is not acceptable.

And by the way: there is no major decision the US has to apologize for. Toppling the Taliban - the regime which gave safe heaven to bin Laden and Al-Quaida - and Saddam Hussain - the worst dictator of the middle east - is really nothing the US has and should apologize for.
But Bush does need to apologize for meddling in the internal affairs of other countries and for toppling Haitis democracy and for sponsoring a coup against Venezuelas democracy

maybe not under oath but at least on TV, Bush repeatedly lied about Iraqi WMDS and links between Saddam and al queda that never existed

Lied? Possibly. Mistaken? Surely. Again, the question is though, did he know it was a lie or did he seriously believe the intelligence? Until you can show that he knew the intelligence was bogus and still went ahead with it under the full knowledge that there was no reason for an attack, then you have no proof of willful falsehood. Additionally, and as loathe as I am to admit this, the point of the Clinton impeachment really was not so much that he lied, but that he perjured himself. Lying, in and of itself, is not a crime. Perjury is.

America will repair its world image by succeeding in Iraq. Give us as much time to rebuild that country as we had to rebuilt Western Europe after WW2, and it will be done.
Besides, I'm tired of hearing others say our dip in popularity should dictate our actions. When did "doing the right thing" and "doing the popular thing" become the same?
what I want to know is when will Bush rebuild AMERICA and the AMERICAN economy? WHy doesnt Bush become President of Iraq since hes spending his entire administration rebuilding them while America crumbles

Other than rampant xenophobia? And I'm sorry I missed it where you identified yourself as German and I apologize for anything I said after that point. And as I said before, I have no interest in criticizing anyone's country, certainly not on the basis of actions that happened nearly a century ago. However, the point still stands that you are quick to judge a country while not allowing those same standards to be equally applied. This not only calls your whole argument itself into question, but your reasons for making it in the first place.



Well, true enough, but that wasn't your charge now, was it? You were bashing the entire country and everyone in it because you don't like the actions of our leaders, which is not only offensive, but pointless and unproductive. This sort of process is wrong when anyone does it, be it a US citizen or a German citizen.

Not to criticize, as I do think this is relevant, but the same excuse you use to claim clarity for Germany in regards to Hitler is the same reason we're having trouble with Bush right now.
Bush is in power, the US population has the power to get rid of him - at the latest in November. At least until then, I will voice my anger and nothing will shut me up, safe from someone killing me.


However, the point still stands that you are quick to judge a country while not allowing those same standards to be equally applied. This not only calls your whole argument itself into question, but your reasons for making it in the first place.

I already said that you may apply my standards to Germany if you so wish. Consider all of Germany "anti-American" and you almost hit the nail on the head (its 82% or even a little more).

I disagree. The US are not the owners of the world. They may defend themselves on their own soil and otherwise act if the UN asks them to. Everyhting else is against international law and thus not excusable, no matter how noble the goal. I am not so much worried about *what* the US did in Afghanistan or Iraq (the greater picture), but how they go about doing it, ignoring the majority of mankind in their quest of "americanizing" the world.

But that's just the point, isn't it? All countries routinely flout UN convention and international law, yet the one you're singling out is the US. What about Russia and Afghanistan and Chechnya? The UK and the Faulklands? Georigia recently bombing some little spliter country? Violations occur every minute of every day and it is at the very least willfully narrow visioned to only point the finger at the US in this regards.

I disagree. The US are not the owners of the world. They may defend themselves on their own soil and otherwise act if the UN asks them to. Everyhting else is against international law and thus not excusable, no matter how noble the goal. I am not so much worried about *what* the US did in Afghanistan or Iraq (the greater picture), but how they go about doing it, ignoring the majority of mankind in their quest of "americanizing" the world.
.
If it would be for the UN Milosevic would still be in power in the balcans and would have already ethnicly "cleaned" Cosovo - as the serbs did in Srebrenica and Gorazde in Bosnia in 1995. It was the American led action in 1999 which ended this.
The UN wouldn´t have allowed it. Two authoritarian regimes have Veto powers (China and Russia). They would never agree to talking action against a dictator. That is like asking a criminal whether other criminals should be punished.
And by the way: why should the US want to be a servant for what the UN says. It is after all a sovereign country.

Are you still harping on that Moore lie? The 9/11 Report disproved that claim.
on what page?

Bush is in power, the US population has the power to get rid of him - at the latest in November. At least until then, I will voice my anger and nothing will shut me up, safe from someone killing me.

Fine, but voice your anger at the right people. Condemning an entire nation for the actions of the leaders is pointlessly xenophobic and does more to exacerabate the situation, rather than encourage average US citizens that their government isn't acting in their best interests.


I already said that you may apply my standards to Germany if you so wish. Consider all of Germany "anti-American" and you almost hit the nail on the head (its 82% or even a little more).

Hmm, strangely enough, a friend of mine just got back from a fourweek trip to Germany and she managed to make it out alive.

Lied? Possibly. Mistaken? Surely. Again, the question is though, did he know it was a lie or did he seriously believe the intelligence? Until you can show that he knew the intelligence was bogus and still went ahead with it under the full knowledge that there was no reason for an attack, then you have no proof of willful falsehood. Additionally, and as loathe as I am to admit this, the point of the Clinton impeachment really was not so much that he lied, but that he perjured himself. Lying, in and of itself, is not a crime. Perjury is.
Bush's continued insistence on his reasons for the Iraq war, aswell as Blair's insistence on the reasons for the Iraq war, in light of developments since the Iraq war, show quite clearly how unfit for national leadership actually both of them are. That you defend them both by saying they were merely "mistaken" while the intelligence presented in front of the UN was clearly fabricated and Bush himself violated international law by ignoring the UN and starting a war of aggression against Iraq, makesme wonder what else you need to be shown. Will only Bush with a bloodied knife in his hand and a dead Iraqi baby in front of his feet, convince you that he is guilty?

that may be true but dont you think the irony of Bushs father meeting with the Bin Ladens on exactly 911 is more then just a little grotesteque? And why did Bush evacuate his family without at least letting them be questioned by the FBI? how do we know for sure his family is really estranged from Osama or thats not just another Bush lie?

If you believe that Bush could be hiding that, then don't you think he might have questioned the family, perhaps without your knowledge? I'm sure they questioned the family, they had to or the media would pick it up.

Bush is in power, the US population has the power to get rid of him - at the latest in November. At least until then, I will voice my anger and nothing will shut me up, safe from someone killing me.
I already said that you may apply my standards to Germany if you so wish. Consider all of Germany "anti-American" and you almost hit the nail on the head (its 82% or even a little more).
Where did you get that number from.
During the war it was between 70-80% though.
I belong to a minority with my opinion. I know that. But the conservative opposition - at leas chair women Merkel - shares it. And she is likely to become our next chancellor. I´m hoping for regime change and according to poles Conservative and Liberals stand by more than 50%, while Social democrats and Greens below 40%. So it looks good for "regime change" in our country in 2006.

Fine, but voice your anger at the right people. Condemning an entire nation for the actions of the leaders is pointlessly xenophobic and does more to exacerabate the situation, rather than encourage average US citizens that their government isn't acting in their best interests.



Hmm, strangely enough, a friend of mine just got back from a fourweek trip to Germany and she managed to make it out alive.
It's the people like you, who continue to defend Bush in light of world wide events and facts, why I hate America as a whole and its culture. Its the PNAC documents which just recently made my a convinced anti-American.

This however, does not mean, that I or other German people will kill you for being American. It merely means, that we will refuse to buy into your tactics and that we will attack US policy whenever deemed neccessary by us, which has been the case since before the Iraq war and continues to be the case. I am not violent in the sense that I will join a terrorist organisation to bomb someone in the US. Instead I will reason with you and try to make you see what is wrong with your country.

Where did you get that number from.
During the war it was between 70-80% though.
I belong to a minority with my opinion. I know that. But the conservative opposition - at leas chair women Merkel - shares it. And she is likely to become our next chancellor. I´m hoping for regime change and according to poles Conservative and Liberals stand by more than 50%, while Social democrats and Greens below 40%. So it looks good for "regime change" in our country in 2006.
"Regime change"... what a "nice" word for the elections in Germany. The conservatives had 16 years to ruin our country under Kohl. I want nothing of that again. I will neither vote for the conservatives nor for the Socialists. I will continue voting for "liberals" who did not have a chance at ruining our country yet.

"Regime change"... what a "nice" word for the elections in Germany. The conservatives had 16 years to ruin our country under Kohl. I want nothing of that again. I will neither vote for the conservatives nor for the Socialists. I will continue voting for "liberals" who did not have a chance at ruining our country yet.
I put it in "", so it was of course jokingly. By the way: regime change through elections its the best thing. The Iraqi people didn´t have the opportunity to do it, as well as the Germans didn´t under Hitler. Due to the American intervention they are going to have it next year. But certainly you find still a reason to be against the "evil Americans", don´t you.
And the East Germans didn´t have it under the communists rule. So I don´t blame you for that. But what I blame you for is that you intend to vote for them (by the way: what is liberal on them???????) who after all ruined East Germany in the 40 years they were in power. That´s what I call irresponsible.

Lied? Possibly. Mistaken? Surely. Again, the question is though, did he know it was a lie or did he seriously believe the intelligence? Until you can show that he knew the intelligence was bogus and still went ahead with it under the full knowledge that there was no reason for an attack, then you have no proof of willful falsehood. Additionally, and as loathe as I am to admit this, the point of the Clinton impeachment really was not so much that he lied, but that he perjured himself. Lying, in and of itself, is not a crime. Perjury is.
For starters, Clinton committed legal pergury but in Bushs case I believe he knew it was a lie because a certain click was formed within the CIA itself which deliberately offered the doctored "evidence" Bush needed as his excuse to invade Iraq. The fact that Bush went on a 6 month holiday prior to 911 is further evidence that Bush didnt want to heed any terrorist attack warnings since he needed for one to occur as futher cause to build an excuse for his invasion.If God himself told Bush theres no reason to invade Iraq Bush wouldve went against God in finding one...Bush wasnt interested in any evidence at all Bush wanted to invade Iraq come hell or high water so Bush manufactured the evidence and Bush allowed a terrorist assault all for IRAQ-its treason for a President to manipulate the people this way

If you believe that Bush could be hiding that, then don't you think he might have questioned the family, perhaps without your knowledge? I'm sure they questioned the family, they had to or the media would pick it up.
yeah Im sure Bushs definition of "questioning' the Bin Ladens consisted of making sure they got the same storys to stick to...

It's the people like you, who continue to defend Bush in light of world wide events and facts, why I hate America as a whole and its culture. Its the PNAC documents which just recently made my a convinced anti-American.

This however, does not mean, that I or other German people will kill you for being American. It merely means, that we will refuse to buy into your tactics and that we will attack US policy whenever deemed neccessary by us, which has been the case since before the Iraq war and continues to be the case. I am not violent in the sense that I will join a terrorist organisation to bomb someone in the US. Instead I will reason with you and try to make you see what is wrong with your country.
So Im an American who agrees with your point does that mean you hate me?

Wouldn't being anti-War be the best way to support the troops? I mean...the quicker the war is over the sooner they're out of there and get to come home, right?

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

I love that quote - Goering was a genius, and it's eerily perfect for the state of the US today. Nationalism is equally ripe for exploitation here and now as it was there and then. Scary times.

www.protestwarrior.com

It's the people like you, who continue to defend Bush in light of world wide events and facts, why I hate America as a whole and its culture. Its the PNAC documents which just recently made my a convinced anti-American.

This however, does not mean, that I or other German people will kill you for being American. It merely means, that we will refuse to buy into your tactics and that we will attack US policy whenever deemed neccessary by us, which has been the case since before the Iraq war and continues to be the case. I am not violent in the sense that I will join a terrorist organisation to bomb someone in the US. Instead I will reason with you and try to make you see what is wrong with your country.

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~ezoboski/inventors/task_files/glasses.gif

Since apparently we have troubles reading, here you go.


He isn't defending Bush, he's listing facts. I don't like Bush either, but there's NO SMOKING GUN. Secondly, the fact that you hate an entire counry and it's culture because of ONE MAN is just idiotic.

Secondly, the fact that you hate an entire counry and it's culture because of ONE MAN is just idiotic.

And racist.

And racist.

I dont think Americans have much moral high ground when it comes to the issue of racism.

I dont think Americans have much moral high ground when it comes to the issue of racism.

I never said they did. Nor did I say Gigatron was actually racist. I merely opined that his/her (sorry, Gigatron, I don't know your gender) comments sounded racist.

The US populace has no reason whatsoever to be proud of their country right now.
This is just a flame. If you replaced "country" with "government" I would agree with you. I can think of plenty of admirable things about America and planety of deplorable things about it.

Will you and Nazi Weaponised Virus please lay-off the relentless anti-American flames? You are killing the image of the left on this message board, not to mention intelligent debate.

The American left?

*Laughs*

Oh right the democrats! The people who dont have the BALLS to stand on true Liberal Ideals - I.e. Standing against the death penalty, standing against corporations, standing against patriotism. The Democrats are just as Corporation loving as The Republicans, they are not the 'left' - the left are visionaries like Noam Chomsky and Charles Kennedy - Those are the people standing up for true Leftist ideals - not this pseudo left that is American Politics (which is far further to the right than most other political spectrums across the world - mostly because the electorate still consider a candidate's patriotism to be a factor in voting him in). Idiots....

yes its true Bush Jr was using schoolkids as human shields on 911

Bush put the taliban in power after the Afghan war

The CIA founded the taliban and

Osama worked for Bushs father in the CIA under the codename Tim Osman--draw your own conclusions but I think it reeks
1. I hope this is a joke. Human shields are used when you're expecting to be attacked. Bush wasn't attacked. He was just reading with them.

2. The Taliban came to power in 1996, four years after Bush 1 left the White House.

3. The CIA didn't found the Taliban. They gave them a lot of resources and they're guilty for that, yes, but they didn't found them. The Taliban was a student movement that emerged from the Afghan Madrasas (religious schools) in the 1980s and 1990s.

4. I haven't heard this one before, but judging by the previous evidence of your non-grasp of history, it probably isn't true.

Where did you get that number from.
During the war it was between 70-80% though.
I belong to a minority with my opinion. I know that. But the conservative opposition - at leas chair women Merkel - shares it. And she is likely to become our next chancellor. I´m hoping for regime change and according to poles Conservative and Liberals stand by more than 50%, while Social democrats and Greens below 40%. So it looks good for "regime change" in our country in 2006.
Not if they listen to their supporters.
http://www.welt.de/data/2004/04/19/266624.html

In a democracy, those who have the powers to prevent crimes committed by their leaders, and do not use them, are equally responsible of committing the crime, as their elected leader.
Well since you think that people in democracies directly control their leaders, why don't you do something about the leader of your country?

I hate Bush, but I don't blame Americans for his actions. During his election campaign he didn't say, "I'm going to mislead you into an unnecessary war and shred the Constitution" did he?

Gigatron, judging all citizens of a nation by their public government is flawed, unfair and simplistic. Don't do it.

Hahaha, I really doubt he would. But it would be great if Noam Chomsky actually came to NS and went into a debating match with the Republicans.
It would be cool, but he actually has a job.

A) Hitler was an American-made monster. It was Woodrow Wilson's barbarous mistreatment of the Germans that led to the mass starvations and poverty that gave rise to the Nazis.
I think you're kind of letting the British and the French off the hook here.

yes its true Bush Jr was using schoolkids as human shields on 911

Bush put the taliban in power after the Afghan war

The CIA founded the taliban and

Osama worked for Bushs father in the CIA under the codename Tim Osman--draw your own conclusions but I think it reeks
1. I hope this is a joke. Human shields are used when you're expecting to be attacked. Bush wasn't attacked. He was just reading with them.

2. The Taliban came to power in 1996, four years after Bush 1 left the White House.

3. The CIA didn't found the Taliban. They gave them a lot of resources and they're guilty for that, yes, but they didn't found them. The Taliban was a student movement that emerged from the Afghan Madrasas (religious schools) in the 1980s and 1990s.

4. I haven't heard this one before, but judging by the previous evidence of your non-grasp of history, it probably isn't true.

Yes, they're to blame, too. Georges Clemenceau said flat-out he wanted the Allies to commit genocide: "There are 20 million Germans too many."

Winston Churchill called Herbert Hoover a "son of a bitch," because of Hoover's efforts to feed the Belgians. Churchill, the virulent racist he was, wanted to let tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of innocent, peace-loving people starve to death just to blame the Germans.

But still, Winston and his "second self," Edward Mandell House, are the ones most at fault, I believe.

4. I haven't heard this one before, but judging by the previous evidence of your non-grasp of history, it probably isn't true.

I don't think it's true, either.

The American left?

*Laughs*

... standing against corporations, standing against patriotism. The Democrats are just as Corporation loving as The Republicans...Idiots....

What is wrong with corporations? Do you even know what that term means?

Look, there are quite a few actions that I feel the US could've done without, like the Vietnam War. But does that mean we spit on them and call them all murderers, as we did when they came home? No. That was a disgraceful display on the part of the American people, because these soldiers are just doing there jobs. Most would probably want to be anywhere but the military. So even if, say, we invaded Canada and Mexico, thereby igniting WWIII, I'd never support the action, but I'd still support the troops, because they weren't the ones who made the decision. They just followed orders.

Look, there are quite a few actions that I feel the US could've done without, like the Vietnam War. But does that mean we spit on them and call them all murderers, as we did when they came home? No. That was a disgraceful display on the part of the American people, because these soldiers are just doing there jobs. Most would probably want to be anywhere but the military. So even if, say, we invaded Canada and Mexico, thereby igniting WWIII, I'd never support the action, but I'd still support the troops, because they weren't the ones who made the decision. They just followed orders.

Well said, my friend. Well said, indeed! :)

Look, there are quite a few actions that I feel the US could've done without, like the Vietnam War. But does that mean we spit on them and call them all murderers, as we did when they came home? No. That was a disgraceful display on the part of the American people, because these soldiers are just doing there jobs. Most would probably want to be anywhere but the military. So even if, say, we invaded Canada and Mexico, thereby igniting WWIII, I'd never support the action, but I'd still support the troops, because they weren't the ones who made the decision. They just followed orders.

You know, you really chose the wrong war as an example.

Can we say "war crimes?" What about "My Lai?"

What is wrong with corporations? Do you even know what that term means?
yeah-it means death to the people

You know, you really chose the wrong war as an example.

Can we say "war crimes?" What about "My Lai?"

Look, most Vietnam veterans did NOT commit war crimes. Of course, there were exceptions- and those that did commit atrocities committed them in some of the most ghastly and barbarous manners ever seen in war- but these were rare, isolated instances of evil. The vast majority of Viet vets were good, decent, heroic men.

As for My Lai, according to an official South Vietnamese government report written by General Huong Xuan Lam said that the reports of the My Lai massacre were 'totally inaccurate,' and estimated that only about a hundred people were killed, twenty-something of them being civilians, and that most of them were caught in the cross-fire during the fighting that took place just outside the village. And doesn't the fact that no two versions of the My Lai story seem just a little bit suspicious?

Look, most Vietnam veterans did NOT commit war crimes. Of course, there were exceptions- and those that did commit atrocities committed them in some of the most ghastly and barbarous manners ever seen in war- but these were rare, isolated instances of evil. The vast majority of Viet vets were good, decent, heroic men.

As for My Lai, according to an official South Vietnamese government report written by General Huong Xuan Lam said that the reports of the My Lai massacre were 'totally inaccurate,' and estimated that only about a hundred people were killed, twenty-something of them being civilians, and that most of them were caught in the cross-fire during the fighting that took place just outside the village. And doesn't the fact that no two versions of the My Lai story seem just a little bit suspicious?


You misunderstood what I meant. I'm not saying "OMG all soldiers are EVIL!!one!!seven!!1!

Some friends from high school have joined the military. I was talking to one of them, who's at the Merchant Marine Academy, just the other day.



What I was saying was, war = bad. Innocent people die, therefore it's bad. It's when we make these people little more then numbers and statistics that things are really off.

What I was saying was, war = bad. Innocent people die, therefore it's bad. It's when we make these people little more then numbers and statistics that things are really off.

Bingo! Soldiers aren't bad (at least, no more than the general populace), war is bad in general.

Not to go all freaky religious, but:

"We utterly deny all outward wars and strife, and fightings with outward weapons, for any end, or under any pretense whatever; this is our testimony to the whole world. The Spirit of Christ by which we are guided is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil, and again to move unto it; and we certainly know, and testify to the world, that the Spirit of Christ, which leads us into all truth, will never move us to fight and war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world."--Quaker Declaration of Pacifism

While my own personal pacifism is rooted in my religious faith, pacifism in general most certainly doesn't have to be.

You know how many N. Vietnamese Americans think on average died? According to an official study, 100,000. The official figure is 2 Million - but according to The UNHCR its around 3.5 Million. My Lai of course was a small representation of this - but as we all know - bombing is dehumanizing, you don't see the 'enemy' (in this case civilians), and therefore when there was a case of Civlians being murdered in a more 'face to face' way, there was more of a public outcry.

Now to quote some Noam Chomsky:

"Now assuming that, according to a poll, most Germans believed 300,000 Jews died in the holocaust, what would be our response to this?"

And to follow up - One American Military investigation concluded that the massacre was carried out. The tribunal post investigation concluded that and sentenced the head of the unit (cannot remember his name) to something like a year in prison (never carried out - now he runs a successful department store) and also sentenced the other members of the unit.

Written testimony from every soldier within the Unit confirmed there had been a massacre (40% of those directly related to the massacre now confirm they are feeling suicidal) and so did numerous Independant Investigations (which also mentioned there was some element of 'damage control' by the US Investigation).

I also find it relatively humerous that The Republicans choose to believe an Investigation by a Government Body if it clears thier President of any wrongdoing (rubbish), but choose to ignore several more Government Investigations, Independant Investigations and Direct Testimony that did not work in thier favour.

What is wrong with corporations? Do you even know what that term means?

Oh nothing, all of the below are fine.

- Exploiting resources of Third World countries.

- Horrifically abusing worker's rights in third world countries (Forcing Governments to make Unions illegal - under threats that they would pull thier investment out of the countries in question).

- Ruining the environment to the point of collapse.

- Exploiting War time situations in efforts to make money.

- Using money to influence political decisions the public wants (Higher Corporation tax, more environmental/consumer rights regulation).

- Corporate Fraud (Enron and Worldcom).

- Exploiting unemployment levels. (Lower wages).

Oh and just for the record, Corporations isn't a 'term', its a word.

Oh nothing, all of the below are fine.

- Exploiting resources of Third World countries.

- Horrifically abusing worker's rights in third world countries (Forcing Governments to make Unions illegal - under threats that they would pull thier investment out of the countries in question).

- Ruining the environment to the point of collapse.

- Exploiting War time situations in efforts to make money.

- Using money to influence political decisions the public wants (Higher Corporation tax, more environmental/consumer rights regulation).

- Corporate Fraud (Enron and Worldcom).

- Exploiting unemployment levels. (Lower wages).

Oh and just for the record, Corporations isn't a 'term', its a word.
Corporations are counter productive and against Human nature. The concentration of too much economic power in the hands of very few people or even one CEO, is like handing someone who only cares for money, a red button to open the vaults of the national bank so he may help himself to the money. The natural and worker-friendly way is to have diversity and smaller enterprises. With less economic power enterprises cannot pressure a government into doing their bidding, even if it is against the will of the electorate.

Today, I see a lot of corporate scandals, CEOs and their lackeys, helping themselves to millions and billions of Euros/Dollars for doing nothing or for even ruining their "corporation". Stock fraud, bending of the laws, abuse of laws, blackmail of workers, etc. I cannot say that I like this development and as it looks, firms are becoming larger and larger with little to no control over them. The world might end up as a "Corporate Police State" - something we have here in Nationstates - or even "Capitalizt". I am afraid of this future but it looks like no government has the balls or ability to do anything about it.

They arent sacrificing "for" their country. They are sacrificing for their corrupt and greedy president, for the throne of the US empire, for the US corporations who make billions by rebuilding Iraq, for the oil the US will get cheap from Iraq. The "boys" are a tool, the leading elite in the US doesnt give a flying shit what happens to the ordinary soldier. Feigning concern or sorrow to increase acceptance of the war at home. It worked in Nazi Germany and it works in the US, because ultimately, mankind is a herd of sheep that just needs to be herded properly to do the shepherds bidding.

Ya know..that really pisses me off when you refer to American military personnel as sheep..I like Shakespeare's Henry 5..."And those men now abed in England will hold their manhood's cheap whilst any man speaks who fought with us on St. Crispin's Day"...who are you to tell those who wear the uniform what they are fighting for? Since when did you know the mind of the American fighting man?..in a word..Never so until you do...perhaps you'd let me forget how ignorant you are by keeping your mouth shut?

You know how many N. Vietnamese Americans think on average died? According to an official study, 100,000. The official figure is 2 Million - but according to The UNHCR its around 3.5 Million. My Lai of course was a small representation of this - but as we all know - bombing is dehumanizing, you don't see the 'enemy' (in this case civilians), and therefore when there was a case of Civlians being murdered in a more 'face to face' way, there was more of a public outcry.

See my above post about My Lai

Those numbers seem severely inflated; moreover, many of those deaths were unintentional

What about all the North and South Vietnamese the communist thugs killed?

Ya know..that really pisses me off when you refer to American military personnel as sheep..I like Shakespeare's Henry 5..."And those men now abed in England will hold their manhood's cheap whilst any man speaks who fought with us on St. Crispin's Day"...who are you to tell those who wear the uniform what they are fighting for? Since when did you know the mind of the American fighting man?..in a word..Never so until you do...perhaps you'd let me forget how ignorant you are by keeping your mouth shut?
They are sheep and will remain sheep, just like the rest of America and much of the world. Any soldier who goes ot Iraq to fight an illegal war should be judged before the ICC/ICJ for commiting war crimes.

They are sheep and will remain sheep, just like the rest of America and much of the world. Any soldier who goes ot Iraq to fight an illegal war should be judged before the ICC/ICJ for commiting war crimes.
Should we try all living Wehrmacht veterans for their illegal wars against France, Poland, Russia, et. al.?

They arent sacrificing "for" their country. They are sacrificing for their corrupt and greedy president, for the throne of the US empire, for the US corporations who make billions by rebuilding Iraq, for the oil the US will get cheap from Iraq. The "boys" are a tool, the leading elite in the US doesnt give a flying shit what happens to the ordinary soldier. Feigning concern or sorrow to increase acceptance of the war at home. It worked in Nazi Germany and it works in the US, because ultimately, mankind is a herd of sheep that just needs to be herded properly to do the shepherds bidding.

I think they are sacrificing their lives for a few bucks and some insurance. The soldiers in Iraq proboly feel they are doing good, because they have to, or they would lose it. The army mostly consists of poor kids who don't have anything else they can do. Herding can take many forms, it canbe nationalistic like with the Nazis or economic like in the US.

See my above post about My Lai

Those numbers seem severely inflated; moreover, many of those deaths were unintentional

What about all the North and South Vietnamese the communist thugs killed?
Not as many as those that were killed by The Americans, although bombing is a dehumanized way of killing it still kills many. And the bombing of Cambodia inpartcular was one of the most sickening things I have ever seen. Some people suggest - including the UNHCR that the N. Vietnamese Communists were responsible for between 80,000-120,000 deaths.

Conservative estimates suggest that The Americans killed around 2.5 Million, though most historians now agree it is more likely around 4 Million - I'd like to see you defend that sickening mass slaughter, which was basically a War Crime.

As for My Lai - you are right. The Americans did nothing wrong and were only handing out flowers and 'candy' when the evil 3 headed communist beast started attacking them. By the end the Americans had saved everyone in the World and everyone cheered them on.

how the fuck is sending our boys to fight an unjust war "supporting" them?

how the fuck is sending our boys to fight an unjust war "supporting" them?

Thank you!

how the fuck is sending our boys to fight an unjust war "supporting" them?

When will you learn Cremerica, that your opinion doesn't matter? No one gives a shit what you think of the war. You're not leading the country, you're sitting here bitching about it to people you don't really know. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, Cremerica. You may win, but you're still retarded.

When will you learn Cremerica, that your opinion doesn't matter? No one gives a shit what you think of the war. You're not leading the country, you're sitting here bitching about it to people you don't really know. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, Cremerica. You may win, but you're still retarded.

And yet, you felt compelled to reply...

When will you learn Cremerica, that your opinion doesn't matter? No one gives a shit what you think of the war. You're not leading the country, you're sitting here bitching about it to people you don't really know. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, Cremerica. You may win, but you're still retarded.

Did you actually make a point in that post or were you just flaming?

Did you actually make a point in that post or were you just flaming?

Point: Why don't you liberals do something? Or am I supposed to wait until November?

When will you learn Cremerica, that your opinion doesn't matter? No one gives a shit what you think of the war. You're not leading the country, you're sitting here bitching about it to people you don't really know. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, Cremerica. You may win, but you're still retarded.

That was a little close to the line there dude.. please don't call people names..

Thank You
Stephanie.
Game Moderator

Point: Why don't you liberals do something? Or am I supposed to wait until November?

Liberal and proud of it!

And do what exactly? I live in Europe - and everyone here is mostly Liberal.