NationStates Jolt Archive

(I feel a flame war coming on...)

That's what I meant. Sorry. And in case anybody is curious, I voted for number 5.

Sorry if the poll question makes no sense, but I'm really tired, stressed out, and my mind is kinda hazy. My sincerest apologies.

This is just question to anyone who votes for "Yes"

What the f*** are you smoking?

This is just question to anyone who votes for "Yes"

What the f*** are you smoking?
only the best :cool:

No--mainly because this administration has been so inept at keeping secrets despite their attempts to be the most secretive administration in history that if they'd planned it or deliberately let it happen, word would have leaked out by now. Besides, the number of people who would have to have been in on it is so large that it would have been impossible to keep secret.

What I think the administration is most guilty of is incompetence, which is bad enough, but it's not treason (unless you count the blowing of Valerie Plame's cover for political revenge--that's treason in my book).

No--mainly because this administration has been so inept at keeping secrets despite their attempts to be the most secretive administration in history that if they'd planned it or deliberately let it happen, word would have leaked out by now. Besides, the number of people who would have to have been in on it is so large that it would have been impossible to keep secret.

What I think the administration is most guilty of is incompetence, which is bad enough, but it's not treason (unless you count the blowing of Valerie Plame's cover for political revenge--that's treason in my book).
I dont think Bush actively planned 911--he did it passively

for those who voted for the 4th choice--your not paying attention to all the loose ends

MKULTRA--explain please how someone can passively plan, when the planning is, by definition, an action. You are such a moron.

MKULTRA--explain please how someone can passively plan, when the planning is, by definition, an action. You are such a moron.
but not so moronic that id attack a political ally

for those who voted for the 4th choice--your not paying attention to all the loose ends

Bush was too busy bombing Pearl Harbour, putting alligators in sewers and shooting JFK to plan 9/11, surely?

but not so moronic that id attack a political allyYou're no ally of mine. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that you are.

Bush was too busy bombing Pearl Harbour, putting alligators in sewers and shooting JFK to plan 9/11, surely?

Lol! :p

You're no ally of mine. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that you are.
thats true--you have no sense of honor or loyalty and in the final battle you would sellout to the enemy on the eve of victory

I'm going to stay in this thread for warmth.

I've got another conspiracy theory cooking up, but I'm not going to write it out and explain it at 3am.

thats true--you have no sense of honor or loyaltyNo--you have no sense of reality. You live in some ridiculous fantasy world where the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers sit in thrones of inscrutable power and control countries like puppets on strings, toying with lives as though they were gods. I live in the real world, dealing with real problems, not paranoid fantasies. That's why we're not allies--because you and I don't inhabit the same universe.

The basic truth is that the 9/11 attacks ENABLED the US government to increase police powers at home and use military force abroad.

Terrorists increase the power of the state - they are no threat to the state as a whole.

That's why the idea that we are in a 'war' against terror is such bullsh"t. Terrorism is not a threat to state power.

Here are some articles from a biased, but deeply professional, source

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml

And by the way, TRA--you still haven't answered my question. How does one plan passively when planning is by definition an active pursuit?

I'm going to stay in this thread for warmth.

*Joins him and brings out the stuff for smores*

Nice fire tonight!

*Joins him and brings out the stuff for smores*

Nice fire tonight!

Hmm, hot dogs anyone?

No.

Even Bush would not allow 9/11 to happen if he could have prevented it.
That being said,
He didnt do anything to prevent it either.
Or enough about it afterwards.
He went to Iraq, under false pretenses, instead of pursuing Bin Laden.
Al-Qeada still operates in Afghanistan, and the rest of the world.
Bin Laden is still at large.

No--you have no sense of reality. You live in some ridiculous fantasy world where the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers sit in thrones of inscrutable power and control countries like puppets on strings, toying with lives as though they were gods. I live in the real world, dealing with real problems, not paranoid fantasies. That's why we're not allies--because you and I don't inhabit the same universe.
your reality is no realer then mine--you argue all the right facts yet you refuse to let them take you thru that door your too afraid to open--ITS SAD

your reality is no realer then mine--you argue all the right facts yet you refuse to let them take you thru that door your too afraid to open

The door marked 'Bullshit?'

And by the way, TRA--you still haven't answered my question. How does one plan passively when planning is by definition an active pursuit?
by actively not reacting-(da)

*Joins him and brings out the stuff for smores*

Nice fire tonight!

Got any more s'mores?

Whatever, TRA. Go have a nice little life with your paranoia and your conspiracies.

The door marked 'Bullshit?'
no I wasnt trying to give out your address

Hmm, hot dogs anyone?

Sure! :)

No--mainly because this administration has been so inept at keeping secrets despite their attempts to be the most secretive administration in history that if they'd planned it or deliberately let it happen, word would have leaked out by now. Besides, the number of people who would have to have been in on it is so large that it would have been impossible to keep secret.

Yes, it's a sad day in America when even the crazy people no longer believe the government can pull off chip implants. It's really sad when the crazy people no longer have to wear their signal-scrambling aluminum hats...

But you know, it could be the *secret* organisation. You know the one ;-)

no I wasnt trying to give out your address

Awww...Is that your first flame?

Awww...Is that your first flame?

(Sigh) It's a Kodak moment!

Whatever, TRA. Go have a nice little life with your paranoia and your conspiracies.
ok keep on acten like a rightwinger defending the establishment version of reality--when the crap hits the fan again you can have the luxury of being surprised again -the rest of us will be studying the patterns . You lay out facts and refuse to follow them to their logical conclusion.

(Coughs) All this smoke...can't breathe...the flames are getting out of control...call the fire departm- (passes out)

You lay out facts and refuse to follow them to their logical conclusion.

Conspiracy theories are the antithesis of logical thinking.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Occam.html

It is difficult to cover such a broad subject as conspiracy theories in one stroke. Indeed, conspiracies are indeed possible, and it would be irresponsible to suggest that all conspiracy theories must be wrong. However, there is a general trend among most conspiracy theories which violates the principle of logical parsimony. In essence, the general method of the conspiracy theorist is as follows:

1. Take some major event (popular targets include the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on America, JFK's assassination, the moon-landing, and Pearl Harbour) in which something bad happened and human negligence or incompetence was a factor.
2. Dismiss the accepted explanation (indeed, conspiracy theorists and pop culture icons such as "The X-Files" have successfully cast the very term "official explanation" itself in a negative light) by denying that such incompetence could exist unless it was deliberate (see Pearl Harbour), or by misrepresenting the details of the events in order to make the accepted explanation appear to be impossible (see the JFK assassination).
3. Try to determine "who stood to gain" from each event.
4. Look for (or fabricate) evidence that these parties were in fact responsible.
5. If step #4 fails, conclude that the lack of reliable evidence is evidence itself ... for a cover-up.
6. Use the existence of classified military documents as "proof" that this cover-up reaches up into the government (by presuming that they must contain what you're looking for, as if there is no other conceivable reason to classify military information).

A few problems leap immediately to mind with this process. First and foremost, it is obviously designed in such a manner that it is impossible to disprove, and an absence of evidence perversely becomes yet more evidence. But more importantly, it seeks to replace an explanation which relies upon individual incompetence with an explanation which requires a new entity: an organized conspiracy whose very existence has not even been verified. In essence, it discards a workable explanation which uses only terms already known to exist (human incompetence is hardly conjecture) in favour of an explanation which unnecessarily invents a new term.

A conspiracy theory would be reasonable if you could show actual hard evidence that the organization itself does exist and was involved, because in that case (to use the mathematical analogy) the equation simply does not fit the theory any other way. However, simply showing that certain people "stood to gain" from something does not prove that their conspiracy existed or that it caused the event in question. And as more than one person has said, never attribute to conspiracies that which can be explained by human stupidity.

ok keep on acten like a rightwinger defending the establishment version of reality--when the crap hits the fan again you can have the luxury of being surprised again -the rest of us will be studying the patterns . You lay out facts and refuse to follow them to their logical conclusion.

What I don't get is why doesn't anyone learn to turn off the damn fan. I mean, you'd think with all this crap flying around hitting fans we'd learn to turn them off or at least move them out of the freaking way.

Conspiracy theories are the antithesis of logical thinking.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Occam.html


and yet, much of it is based on sound arguements.

This does not make them right...but most of them have grains of truth within them.

What I don't get is why doesn't anyone learn to turn off the damn fan. I mean, you'd think with all this crap flying around hitting fans we'd learn to turn them off or at least move them out of the freaking way.

I don't kn- oh, that's right, I passed out, sorry.

Is no-one actually interested in this topic? It's pretty important you know. The NS community is actually f'cking important, because here we can actually explore political alternatives. AND WE NEED THEM.

Conspiracy theories are the antithesis of logical thinking
I agree--which is why I dont watch foxnews

Is no-one actually interested in this topic? It's pretty important you know. The NS community is actually f'cking important, because here we can actually explore political alternatives. AND WE NEED THEM.

You must understand that I've seen this exact same topic debated at least 5 times since I've been around. The arguments never change, and in the case of TRA, the arguers never change. It's hard to care about it when we've already debated it to death. Nothing is ever accomplished. It's just like two rams butting heads for the affection of a female.

MKULTRA This user is on your Ignore List Ah--I may learn to love this function.

Is no-one actually interested in this topic? It's pretty important you know. The NS community is actually f'cking important, because here we can actually explore political alternatives. AND WE NEED THEM.
theres creatures of the establishment here who like to try and put hate labels on radical truths

Ah--I may learn to love this function.
I already do

I agree--which is why I dont watch foxnews

You agree that conspiracy theories are generally illogical and violate the principle of logical parsimony, so you don't watch Fox News? Umm, ok.

You agree that conspiracy theories are generally illogical and violate the principle of logical parsimony, so you don't watch Fox News? Umm, ok.great is the power of truth that can easily defend itself with its own force

great is the power of truth that can easily defend itself with its own force

Um...Normally when arguing for or against something it's traditional to present evidence, or at very least your actual argument.

great is the power of truth that can easily defend itself with its own force

What's up with the Zensunni mantras? Why don't you try inserting a little substance into your statements rather than relying on vague, Yoda-like statements?

Ack... I clicked the first instead of the third option!

*bonks head on desk*

I really don't see how conspiracy theories stay alive, condering how inept most goverments are at covering up even the most simple things.

What's up with the Zensunni mantras? Why don't you try inserting a little substance into your statements rather than relying on vague, Yoda-like statements?

Don't you see?! He's Yoda with a modem!

Don't you see?! He's Yoda with a modem!

I'm going to start calling him Duncan Idaho.

What's up with the Zensunni mantras? Why don't you try inserting a little substance into your statements rather than relying on vague, Yoda-like statements?
Because no ones opinion is ever changed here--this is the battlefield

Because no ones opinion is ever changed here--this is the battlefield

Thanks, Sun Tzu!

Ack... I clicked the first instead of the third option!

*bonks head on desk*

I really don't see how conspiracy theories stay alive, condering how inept most goverments are at covering up even the most simple things.thats why the govt passively allows it--cause they wont have to cover up what they dont know

thats why the govt passively allows it--cause they wont have to cover up what they dont know

How can you possibly allow something you don't know about?

Because no ones opinion is ever changed here--this is the battlefield
So you're just wasting your (and everyone else's) time?

Stupid is the fool who argues like Yoda.

The basic truth is that the 9/11 attacks ENABLED the US government to increase police powers at home and use military force abroad.



9/11 was manufactured by the PNAC to debilitate the public enough to shread the constitution and launch a series of Imperialistic wars thrugh-out the third world. The Coup tour streachers from Haiti to Afghanistan, California to Iraq, Haiti to (almost) Venezuela. All of this is written down in the PNAC 2000 report "Rebuilding America's Defences" on page 63 when they call for a "Pearl Harbor-type event" to push their agenda through. go to www.newamericancentury.org to see for yourself!

9/11 was manufactured by the PNAC to debilitate the public enough to shread the constitution and launch a series of Imperialistic wars thrugh-out the third world. The Coup tour streachers from Haiti to Afghanistan, California to Iraq, Haiti to (almost) Venezuela. All of this is written down in the PNAC 2000 report "Rebuilding America's Defences" on page 63 when they call for a "Pearl Harbor-type event" to push their agenda through. go to www.newamericancentury.org to see for yourself!

Pearl Harbour was a military attack with military planes on a valid military target. How can you possibly describe 9/11 as a 'Pearl Harbour type event?'

Lot's of zen going on in here. Arguing by not arguing.

i don't think the government knew about 9/11 before it actually happened, because:

1. they could have intercepted plane #2, 3 and 4 before they crashed. the crashing of plane #1 would be enough excuse to wage war against afghanistan and iraq.

2. do you think bush would allow the plane to crash into the brain of the U.S. military? i don't think so. more as you'd like to think bush is an idiot, he's not.

Pearl Harbour was a military attack with military planes on a valid military target. How can you possibly describe 9/11 as a 'Pearl Harbour type event?'

1) The number of deaths.
2) In both cases the populace rallied behind the president's call to war. (note, the two Embassy and USS Cole bombings didn't)
3) Both attacks were carried out dispite Presidential prior knowledge.
4) Both attacks shocked the unsuspecting nation. (this is more of a testiment to American ignorance of US foriegn policy)
5) Coverage and rememberance of both attacks are widely distorted from reality. (eg. most americans do not realize that the US was already conducting a naval blockade to Japan's oil supply and supporting mercenarcy fighters against the nation; eg. most americans do not remember that Tower 7 of the WTC fell around 5'o'clock dispite not being hit by a plane)

The PNAC wanted to recreate the atmosphere that the Japanese "sneak-attack" on Pearl Harbor had caused; they did this with 9/11

Conjecture. Try evidence.

Conjecture. Try evidence.

What evidence is there that the alleged hijackers carried out 9/11? Their names do not appear on the flight roster. The only evidence of their presence was a passport found in the rubble of the WTC: now tell me, if the fire melted the blackbox, how did a passport survive -- and why would they carry their correct passports if they had tickets under fake names? Why were four planes allowed to fly off-course without responding to the FFA for almost two hours? Did you know that it is standard FFA procedure to treat any change of flight path and non-response as a hijacking? The procedure also states that after 5 minutes they are to have NORAD send f-16s to intercept... why wasn't procedure followed? Why hasn't anyone at the FFA or NORAD lost their job? Did you know that tower 7 collapesed in the afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a plane? Why did it collapse -- and why does the footage of it's collapse look like controlled demolition? Did you know that many of the alleged hijackers have been found alive!

Our Fearless Leader was neither actively nor passively involved in any conspiracy of 9/11. He is indeed an idiot. The man says: "Nu-Q-ler," for crying out loud!

What evidence is there that the alleged hijackers carried out 9/11? Their names do not appear on the flight roster. The only evidence of their presence was a passport found in the rubble of the WTC: now tell me, if the fire melted the blackbox, how did a passport survive -- and why would they carry their correct passports if they had tickets under fake names? Why were four planes allowed to fly off-course without responding to the FFA for almost two hours? Did you know that it is standard FFA procedure to treat any change of flight path and non-response as a hijacking? The procedure also states that after 5 minutes they are to have NORAD send f-16s to intercept... why wasn't procedure followed? Why hasn't anyone at the FFA or NORAD lost their job? Did you know that tower 7 collapesed in the afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a plane? Why did it collapse -- and why does the footage of it's collapse look like controlled demolition? Did you know that many of the alleged hijackers have been found alive!

Can you show me evidence of any of this from somewhere that isn't a conspiracy theorist website?

Can you show me evidence of any of this from somewhere that isn't a conspiracy theorist website?

Most of it... all of it at one time, but some of it has been "purged" from the corporate news sites...

give me time... and remember, when I show the proof for one of these - don't rush to dismiss it!

Our Fearless Leader was neither actively nor passively involved in any conspiracy of 9/11. He is indeed an idiot. The man says: "Nu-Q-ler," for crying out loud!
How come so many confuses the concepts of being articulate with the concept of being smart?

There are many smart person that are not good public speakers and there are many stupid people who are really good public speakers.

Surely someone has told him how to pronounce it! Besides the man always looks like a deer in headlights. That vague, glazed over look is indicative of something.

Off to work. Ya'll have a great day!

Can you show me evidence of any of this from somewhere that isn't a conspiracy theorist website?

The footage on this site is taken from television: http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html

It shows the collapse of tower 7 -- the third steel building in history to fall from fire alone (the first two occuring earlier in the day)

I'd say no, but I wouldn't put past the current US administration to allow "another Pearl Harbour" to happen to allow them to declare a new global war on whoever (ie wannabe terrorist states) with perceived legitimacy.

This is just question to anyone who votes for "Yes"

What the f*** are you smoking?
Drum.

(I feel a flame war coming on...)

Exactly. Arciada, Camewot, Gigatron, MKULTRA, Neolithica, Shaed, Texastambul, Von Witzleben, and West - Europa are dumbasses. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

What evidence is there that the alleged hijackers carried out 9/11? Their names do not appear on the flight roster. The only evidence of their presence was a passport found in the rubble of the WTC: now tell me, if the fire melted the blackbox, how did a passport survive -- and why would they carry their correct passports if they had tickets under fake names? Why were four planes allowed to fly off-course without responding to the FFA for almost two hours? Did you know that it is standard FFA procedure to treat any change of flight path and non-response as a hijacking? The procedure also states that after 5 minutes they are to have NORAD send f-16s to intercept... why wasn't procedure followed? Why hasn't anyone at the FFA or NORAD lost their job? Did you know that tower 7 collapesed in the afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a plane? Why did it collapse -- and why does the footage of it's collapse look like controlled demolition? Did you know that many of the alleged hijackers have been found alive!
First a supposed lack of evidence for one thing is not, in and of it self evidence of another, nor should any rationale human being consider it such.
Second the position of black box would place it in the Tower with the fire the typical position of a passport in a plane would easily place it on the ground BEFORE the tower fell(this is of course assuming your statement is even correct, which I seriously doubt).
Prior to 9/11 completely contrary to false statement, planes flew off course all the time, and many without responding. That being said even if the FAA(I dont know what the FFA is) postured it self in preparation for a hijacking(they would not declare a plane actually hijacked until they knew it to be-pre911 that is,) in preparation for a hijacking what were they going to do?
Shoot it down? Why? Hijackers make demands and land planes, this has never happened before with hijacked American airliners, and I dont know of any foreign ones either.
Pre911 the FAA procedure on potential hijackings did not state that should be fighter interdiction on identified civilian aircraft. That is simply a bold-faced lie.
This week a civilian Helicopter entreed restricted airspace above a local airforce base that I delivery to, they did not "Scramble Fighters" that statement is assinine.
Tower 7 collapsing later in the day with no fire damage, now here is one for the truly dim. How many thousand of tons collapsed upon the very foundation of that building-to which it was most assuradly not designed to handle. I say "duh" to you sir, go back to your trailer and drink a cold Pabst blue ribbon for me.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/letter.htm

1) The number of deaths.
2) In both cases the populace rallied behind the president's call to war. (note, the two Embassy and USS Cole bombings didn't)
3) Both attacks were carried out dispite Presidential prior knowledge.
4) Both attacks shocked the unsuspecting nation. (this is more of a testiment to American ignorance of US foriegn policy)
5) Coverage and rememberance of both attacks are widely distorted from reality. (eg. most americans do not realize that the US was already conducting a naval blockade to Japan's oil supply and supporting mercenarcy fighters against the nation; eg. most americans do not remember that Tower 7 of the WTC fell around 5'o'clock dispite not being hit by a plane)

The PNAC wanted to recreate the atmosphere that the Japanese "sneak-attack" on Pearl Harbor had caused; they did this with 9/11
Simply because you can infer lines of similarity between the two does not mean the latter was deliberate.
Our intelligence services and the Whitehouse most assuradly had some prior information that something was going to happen.
A few dozen guys is not the same thing as floating an Attack Fleet across the pacific.
Since you site the COLE(clinton years) I assume you mean this is a multi-presidential conspiracy to murder Americans.
and again with Tower 7, wow .

USA Today-Sites Video of High Jackers Boarding plane as evidense of security failure because the HighJacker set off metal detector. Article link (http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=+the+9%2F11+hijackers/v=2/SID=e/TID=H032_61/l=WS1/R=4/H=0/MI=ic/SHE=0/*-http://rdre1.yahoo.com/click?u=http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do%3FitemID%3D512302%26extID%3D10032%26oliID%3D213&y=0253BDAB9D1F1B49&i=524&c=10522&q=02%5ESSHPM%5BL7%3Fkwz%3F%260..%3Fwvu~%7Ctzml6&e=utf-8&r=3&d=wow-en-us&n=E9AK5H19JS5K341M&s=123&t=&m=410BA279&x=010406BB273197BE)
Related story of further evidence (http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=+the+9%2F11+hijackers/v=2/SID=w/TID=H032_61/l=WS1/R=11/H=0/SHE=0/*-http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/sept11/attacks/thehijackers.html)
CNN image shows faces of Hijackers boarding plane taken from Security Video (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/21/attacks.surveillance.video/)
Hijacker Time Line (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/683026/posts)
I have reveiwed some of the dribble that online that you are vomiting up as facts.
You can find no credible news services who take these conspiracy theories seriously.
As far as guys with the HiJackers names, well here in Dearborn MI there lives Waleed Al-Shehri , not the international Terrorist but the paty store clerk
at chase Liquor market(we all call it Wally World and have for over 15 years) You think the FBI will give me a reward for a dead Hijacker?
I myself have met half a dozen people with my name.
Finally a majority of the evidence in the 9/11 investigation is actually on the public record, pay the fee and use the Freedom of Informantion Act before you go spreading obvious lies and falsehoods.

If 9-11 was a conspiracy, why would Bush, a TEMPORARY official, know about it? IF this was a government conspiracy, it would be in the realm of the NSA, where there is no politics.

But I said no anyway. What a way to destabilize the world.

How can you possibly allow something you don't know about?
its easy--the govt does it alla time

So you're just wasting your (and everyone else's) time?
no--Im speaking truth to power standing against the rightwing lie wherever it tries to take seed-Im a warrior against division

9/11 was manufactured by the PNAC to debilitate the public enough to shread the constitution and launch a series of Imperialistic wars thrugh-out the third world. The Coup tour streachers from Haiti to Afghanistan, California to Iraq, Haiti to (almost) Venezuela. All of this is written down in the PNAC 2000 report "Rebuilding America's Defences" on page 63 when they call for a "Pearl Harbor-type event" to push their agenda through. go to www.newamericancentury.org to see for yourself!
this is the kind of evidence that needs to be hammered like a stake right thru the blackened heart of our evil President and his deluded fundamentalist glassy eyed defenders

Our Fearless Leader was neither actively nor passively involved in any conspiracy of 9/11. He is indeed an idiot. The man says: "Nu-Q-ler," for crying out loud!
its very possible that the chimps handlers may have kept him out of the loop

Exactly. Arciada, Camewot, Gigatron, MKULTRA, Neolithica, Shaed, Texastambul, Von Witzleben, and West - Europa are dumbasses. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
your like that character in the scarey movie who keeps insisting everythings ok until you come face to face with the monster and by then its too late

I voted Not Sure. To my skeptical side, it does sound like a wacko conspiracy theory thought up by a bunch of 40 year old potheads. To my Bush-hating side, it sounds like a plausible political move. To the cool head of logic in the middle, I can see that it's not unprecedented (in the world I mean) and there were reasons it would have been favorable to the administration, but it's just so extreme and how could anyone's conscience handle it? So I really don't know.

I mean there are people who paint him as the next Hitler but I think that's a lot of hot air - if nothing else, that's one damn good idiot charade!

I voted Not Sure. To my skeptical side, it does sound like a wacko conspiracy theory thought up by a bunch of 40 year old potheads. To my Bush-hating side, it sounds like a plausible political move. To the cool head of logic in the middle, I can see that it's not unprecedented (in the world I mean) and there were reasons it would have been favorable to the administration, but it's just so extreme and how could anyone's conscience handle it? So I really don't know.
well for the 40 year old cokehead in the white house this conspiracy is real and how do you think the germans felt right after Hitler was exposed as the monster he was? just because something is shocking doesnt mean you arent living in a historical nightmare

It was obvious that they knew some things, but it was mostly generalized information and had the government been able to stop it, it would have been stopped. The whole thing was a breakdown in the chain of command that has been getting worse for decades. It is certian that the FAA could have done much more than they did on the day of the attacks, but they are too un-coordinated.

well for the 40 year old cokehead in the white house this conspiracy is real and how do you think the germans felt right after Hitler was exposed as the monster he was? just because something is shocking doesnt mean you arent living in a historical nightmare
40?
Who do you think is president?
I bet you are what 19, dropped out of public high school, have naver read a book from cover to cover.
Mouth breather.

40?
Who do you think is president?
I bet you are what 19, dropped out of public high school, have naver read a book from cover to cover.
Mouth breather.
No but I can read your mama like a 4 letter word

I voted no on the grounds that I think the balance of probability weighs against it. I reserve the right to change my mind, considering the large amounts of unanswered questions still floating about.

@MKULTRA- you're probably going to take this the wrong way and flame me, but you need to look at the difference between conspiracy theory and serious parapolitical research. If you're going to seriously attempt to operate in this area you need to have as much academic rigour as your average university professor. Without it you have no way of seperating the wheat from the chaff. There is serious stuff out there (in the UK for example there is hard evidence of state complicity in the bombing of Soho by a neo-nazi), but at the moment you won't recognise it if you see it.

Hmm, hot dogs anyone? :mp5: :mp5:

I see the fire is getting a bit dim....more flames required?

:mp5: :mp5:

I see the fire is getting a bit dim....more flames required?

No, please let this thread die.

CRAP! I bumped it.

I voted no on the grounds that I think the balance of probability weighs against it. I reserve the right to change my mind, considering the large amounts of unanswered questions still floating about.

@MKULTRA- you're probably going to take this the wrong way and flame me, but you need to look at the difference between conspiracy theory and serious parapolitical research. If you're going to seriously attempt to operate in this area you need to have as much academic rigour as your average university professor. Without it you have no way of seperating the wheat from the chaff. There is serious stuff out there (in the UK for example there is hard evidence of state complicity in the bombing of Soho by a neo-nazi), but at the moment you won't recognise it if you see it.
I know things in my gut-my gut never lies

People are getting fast and loose with their flames in several threads. I have warned people to knock it off. If I see any more flames warnings are being issued on your nations and threads are getting locked! Now for the last time, knock it off!

Stephanie
Game Moderator

I know things in my gut-my gut never liesBollocks. Gut feelings are nothing. David Icke's gut feelings are that giant lizards rule the world.If we don't deal in facts and research on topics like this, then it would be better to say nothing at all. Can't you see that your current stance is letting the people you profess to despise off the hook?

No but I can read your mama like a 4 letter word

Sorry ... but that struck me a extremely funny ... giggled about it so long it took me 15 minutes to compose myself to reply.

It wouldn't be the first time the President deliberately let ourselves get attacked as an excuse to get into a war.

1)Woodrow Wilson- Lusitania

2)FDR- Pearl Harbor

3)LBJ- Gulf of Tonkin incident

Well--in LBJ's case, he didn't exactly wait for an incident. He sort of manufactured it. There's a bit about it in "The Fog of War" where McNamara notes that the US Navy had actually been attacked a couple of days before the Gulf of Tonkin, and they didn't respond, and then they weren't attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin incident and we did respond.

Well--in LBJ's case, he didn't exactly wait for an incident. He sort of manufactured it. There's a bit about it in "The Fog of War" where McNamara notes that the US Navy had actually been attacked a couple of days before the Gulf of Tonkin, and they didn't respond, and then they weren't attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin incident and we did respond.

See, if LBJ was willing to send hundreds of thousands of Americans to their death in order to access the oil fields and poppy fields of South Asia (and give out contracts to Brown & Root-Halliburtion) then why is it so hard to consider the theory that Bush killed three-thousand in order to do the same thing in Central Asia?

People don't understand that they're just numbers.

The President doesn't care about you, you're just a statistic on some paper.

Second the position of black box would place it in the Tower with the fire the typical position of a passport in a plane would easily place it on the ground BEFORE the tower fell ( this is of course assuming your statement is even correct, which I seriously doubt ).

Sit back and learn something:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_suspects.html
Satam M. A. Al Suqami: A Saudi Arabian national whose passport was recovered in the rubble.

Oh... what the hell is the typical position of a passport in a plane? Someone's pocket! Now, if a passport is in someone's pocket, and that someone is in the cockpit of a plane (standing inches away from the black box) then how can you say that it's "position" would place it on the ground before the tower fell? Even if it were on the ground before the tower fell, wouldn't that place it under tons of smoldering rubble? It's a good thing that passport was laminated -- too bad they didn't think to laminate the black box.



Prior to 9/11 completely contrary to false statement, planes flew off course all the time, and many without responding. That being said even if the FAA(I dont know what the FFA is) postured it self in preparation for a hijacking(they would not declare a plane actually hijacked until they knew it to be-pre911 that is,)

Actually, it was standard operation procedure taken from the FAA handbook:
I'll get a link up soon.

in preparation for a hijacking what were they going to do?
Shoot it down? Why? Hijackers make demands and land planes, this has never happened before with hijacked American airliners, and I dont know of any foreign ones either.

In the military, you train the way you fight.

http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com%2B-%2BNORAD%2Bhad%2Bdrills%2Bof%2Bjets%2Bas%2Bweapons&expire=&urlID=9961878&fb=Y&url=http%3A//www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm&partnerID=1660

NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
By Steven Komarow and Tom Squitieri, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON —
"In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.
One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say."


Pre911 the FAA procedure on potential hijackings did not state that should be fighter interdiction on identified civilian aircraft. That is simply a bold-faced lie.
This week a civilian Helicopter entreed restricted airspace above a local airforce base that I delivery to, they did not "Scramble Fighters" that statement is assinine.

Actually, it was standard operation procedure taken from the FAA handbook:
I'll get a link up soon.

Tower 7 collapsing later in the day with no fire damage, now here is one for the truly dim.


The fact remains that Tower 7 was not hit by a plane, and that it's fall was perfectly symetric (as though it were demolished with well placed explosives).

http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/Contingency_Planning_Photos.html

Look at these pictures from a project undertaken in November of 2000: look familiar?

9/11 was manufactured by the PNAC to debilitate the public enough to shread the constitution and launch a series of Imperialistic wars thrugh-out the third world. The Coup tour streachers from Haiti to Afghanistan, California to Iraq, Haiti to (almost) Venezuela. All of this is written down in the PNAC 2000 report "Rebuilding America's Defences" on page 63 when they call for a "Pearl Harbor-type event" to push their agenda through. go to www.newamericancentury.org to see for yourself!
Ok, I am getting unnerved here. Twice I clicked on your link. Twice I entered Page 63 as a search, and twice a link came up. Twice I clicked on that link and twice my browser froze and I had to shut down Internet Explorer. What gives?

Ok, I am getting unnerved here. Twice I clicked on your link. Twice I entered Page 63 as a search, and twice a link came up. Twice I clicked on that link and twice my browser froze and I had to shut down Internet Explorer. What gives?

That sounds very odd... Although, with the Patriot Act the feds can screen any online activity for any reason without a warrent so it really isn't that odd...


http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
It's the last one on the bottom of the page, titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses" -- go to page 63 for the "Pearl Harbor" quote.

Ok, I am getting unnerved here. Twice I clicked on your link. Twice I entered Page 63 as a search, and twice a link came up. Twice I clicked on that link and twice my browser froze and I had to shut down Internet Explorer. What gives?
Maybe you need to dload the latests updates for your virus scanner? At least thats what I have to do everytime I open that PDF file.

Maybe you need to dload the latests updates for your virus scanner? At least thats what I have to do everytime I open that PDF file.
Thanks for the input. I will try. :)