NationStates Jolt Archive

Or at least my ignorance. I'm attending a college program at the University of Rochester in Upstate New York, well it's actually a college program for high school (love it). One of the courses I'm taking is an Italian crash course led by a native of Calabria, and the best cook on the planet. She was telling us a fact that I never knew" when Giusseppe Garbaldi reunited Italy in 1860, only 3% of Italians spoke what was then just a dialect from Firenze, and would later become standard Italian. I knew that every region had their own dialect. I even knew that during WWII, Italian soldiers needed translators just to communicate with one another. Yet I didn't realize that most dialects constituted separate languages. I saw Sicilian written for the first time, with an Italian translation nearby. I never knew they were two different languages, but they look nothing like the other. It was only about a few decades ago, with the introduction of the televisione in Italy, that standard Italian was spoken by most.
I always assumed, up to this point, that every country had their own language after about 1400, and it stayed that way. However, I never guessed that regional dialects were the norm until then. Did other countries in Europe have similar linguistic problems.
BTW, to my fellow Americans, don't be offended by the title. It was just to grab people's attention.

Some of that I knew.

My wife's Sicilian! ;)

It definately did that. It did leave me the slightest bit confused about your topic though... I'm sorry to be dense, but what's the discussion question?

It definately did that. It did leave me the slightest bit confused about your topic though... I'm sorry to be dense, but what's the discussion question?

He learned some cool stuff and wanted to share! ;)

Some of that I knew.

My wife's Sicilian! ;)
Ah. Well I've been wondering if the same problem existed elsewhere. Now that I think about it, there's High German and Low German. I though they were only as different as British English and American English, but now I'm not sure. Are they different languages? And has one of them been eradicated?

It definately did that. It did leave me the slightest bit confused about your topic though... I'm sorry to be dense, but what's the discussion question?
There isn't a true question. I was just sort of telling you guys about my revelation, and I was expecting Europeans to attack me for my ignorance :).

However, I am interested to know more about the history of linguistics in Europe. When did national languages rise? Are regional languages still widely spoken? I know there are things like Basque in Spain and France, but I'm asking if, say Germany still speaks two distinct Germanic languages.

However, I am interested to know more about the history of linguistics in Europe. When did national languages rise? Are regional languages still widely spoken? I know there are things like Basque in Spain and France, but I'm asking if, say Germany still speaks two distinct Germanic languages.
No. Not realy. In the case of Germany all that springs to mind is Frisian. But thats going downhill at warp speed from what I hear.

No. Not realy. In the case of Germany all that springs to mind is Frisian. But thats going downhill at warp speed from what I hear.
They all are. But from what I've heard, there's High German and Low German. English is a direct decendant of High German, but I wonder which one Germany speaks, or are they merely different dialects of the same language?
I also knew that regional languages existed elsewhere in Europe. There's Welsh and Gaelic, both as widely spoken as many Native American languages.There's also Catalan in Spain, but I don't know if that's surviving or not. Probably not.

They all are. But from what I've heard, there's High German and Low German. English is a direct decendant of High German, but I wonder which one Germany speaks, or are they merely different dialects of the same language?
I also knew that regional languages existed elsewhere in Europe. There's Welsh and Gaelic, both as widely spoken as many Native American languages.There's also Catalan in Spain, but I don't know if that's surviving or not. Probably not.
Don't know bout the others. But High German, Hochdeutsch, is the standard tought in school.

I thought that Modern German stemmed from high German and Dutch and English stemmed from Low German. It seems I'm wrong.

But isn't Apain similar to Italy, by which I mean there are several different languages. Catalan being the largest peripheral language, and Basque having very little in common with any Latanic (is that the right word) language.

i knew sicily was completely different than the rest like the one area in spain, but i didnt know they were all like that

Don't know bout the others. But High German, Hochdeutsch, is the standard tought in school.
So essentially, Low German is dead, right?

Well: there is Swiss German which is pretty special and not understandable.
Austrian German is a bit different, but not so much.

However there is a High language. That is orientated historically on the Bible translation of Martin Luther in the 1520s. Although the spelling and some phrases wouldn´t be used today this translation is still understable today - if you are a german speaker.
Luther used actually a mixture of North German, Thuringan and Hess dialects as a basis. However: the official writing form of the saxonian church also was used by him as a model for his translation.
And with the industrialisation in the 19th century the "high" language became more and more important. However: there were still several different writing and spelling rules. It was not before the end of the 19 th century that was unified - also following the unification of 1871. There were actually a lot of discussions which finally led to agreements on common rules between Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
The Duden is since that time the reference for the proper use of the language - printed by the way by a private company.

Although of this harmonisation the dialects remained alive. There are many dialects:in Bavaria or in Schwaben, there is also a Saxonian dialect, dialects in Hesse, a Frankfurt dialect, a Berlin slang, a Rheinland dialect, and many, many more.
Today however the dialects are more common in rural areas than in urban arreas. They have lost importance since the 19 th century. The unification and the centralisation as well as the move of more and more people from rural to urban arreas led to a decline of dialect use.
Today they are however still in use in rural areas and in Bavaria people at least to tend to speak with an Bavarian accent at least- if not speaking dialect.

In school only High German is taught - well at least in Germany.

I thought that Modern German stemmed from high German and Dutch and English stemmed from Low German. It seems I'm wrong.

But isn't Apain similar to Italy, by which I mean there are several different languages. Catalan being the largest peripheral language, and Basque having very little in common with any Latanic (is that the right word) language.
Basque is fascinating because it doesn't seem to be related to any of the other European language families--I had a teacher in Translation while in grad school. It just seems to have popped up out of nowhere.

But I know what you mean, Purly, about the Italian languages. I saw some Provencal and some Romanescu which are both related to Italian and damned if I could understand either of them.

Or at least my ignorance. I'm attending a college program at the University of Rochester in Upstate New York, well it's actually a college program for high school (love it). One of the courses I'm taking is an Italian crash course led by a native of Calabria, and the best cook on the planet. She was telling us a fact that I never knew" when Giusseppe Garbaldi reunited Italy in 1860, only 3% of Italians spoke what was then just a dialect from Firenze, and would later become standard Italian. I knew that every region had their own dialect. I even knew that during WWII, Italian soldiers needed translators just to communicate with one another. Yet I didn't realize that most dialects constituted separate languages. I saw Sicilian written for the first time, with an Italian translation nearby. I never knew they were two different languages, but they look nothing like the other. It was only about a few decades ago, with the introduction of the televisione in Italy, that standard Italian was spoken by most.
I always assumed, up to this point, that every country had their own language after about 1400, and it stayed that way. However, I never guessed that regional dialects were the norm until then. Did other countries in Europe have similar linguistic problems.
BTW, to my fellow Americans, don't be offended by the title. It was just to grab people's attention.


LOL

My girlfriend is fron PN, I'm from TX. We have no end of fun at the way we each speak. Accent and dialects.

Jim

I don't think it's too hard. You guys both speak with a twang in your voices.

"Basque is fascinating because it doesn't seem to be related to any of the other European language families--I had a teacher in Translation while in grad school. It just seems to have popped up out of nowhere."
Isn´t that a celtic language originally????
Like Irish.

As a matter of fact: the celtic languages disappeared (almost completly).
Romanic, germanic and slavic languages dominate Europe.
There are exceptions. One is due to the Huns which were in Europe in the 4 th century. They left the finno-hungarian languages in Europe: that are Finnland, Estonia and Hungary which belong to this language family which is not at all related to the other languages.

The romanic, germanic and slavic languages on contrast have things in common. They belong to the so called indo-germanic language group. Comparisons are found to an old indian language: the Sanskrit.
Also Latin influenced the other European languages. That´s the reason why many technical terms are almost the same in many languages - different endings sometime and different pronounciation but still visible coming from the same word. Aside from that Latin grammer was taken over as well and many technical terms. Aside the fact that especially English was highly influenced by French as well - to a lesser degree German as well.

"Basque is fascinating because it doesn't seem to be related to any of the other European language families--I had a teacher in Translation while in grad school. It just seems to have popped up out of nowhere."
Isn´t that a celtic language originally????
Like Irish.

As a matter of fact: the celtic languages disappeared (almost completly).
Romanic, germanic and slavic languages dominate Europe.
There are exceptions. One is due to the Huns which were in Europe in the 4 th century. They left the finno-hungarian languages in Europe: that are Finnland, Estonia and Hungary which belong to this language family which is not at all related to the other languages.

The romanic, germanic and slavic languages on contrast have things in common. They belong to the so called indo-germanic language group. Comparisons are found to an old indian language: the Sanskrit.
Also Latin influenced the other European languages. That´s the reason why many technical terms are almost the same in many languages - different endings sometime and different pronounciation but still visible coming from the same word. Aside from that Latin grammer was taken over as well and many technical terms. Aside the fact that especially English was highly influenced by French as well - to a lesser degree German as well.
Hungarians are not Hunns.

There are also several forms of English... Canadian English, West English, American English, Redneck English, Caribbean English, traditional English....

There are also several forms of English... Canadian English, West English, American English, Redneck English, Caribbean English, traditional English....
However, anyone who speaks English can understand eachother. There aren't radical changes between the two.
And btw, asside spelling and the famous "eh", Canadian English isn't far different than American English.

However, anyone who speaks English can understand eachother. There aren't radical changes between the two.
And btw, asside spelling and the famous "eh", Canadian English isn't far different than American English.
Sure it is!

Now, pass me a serviette, I spilled poutine on my chesterfield, eh!

Sure it is!

Now, pass me a serviette, I spilled poutine on my chesterfield, eh!
Oh, God. But hey, only some of the vocabulary is the same. Verbs aren't, and neither are prepositions, or syntax. The only major difference is slang and some nouns. But I do need a translation for the above sentence, if you don't mind.

Oh, God. But hey, only some of the vocabulary is the same. Verbs aren't, and neither are prepositions, or syntax. The only major difference is slang and some nouns. But I do need a translation for the above sentence, if you don't mind.
Give me a napkin, I dropped my chilli fries on the sofa. ;)

NOTE: poutine is native to Quebec and it's made with fries, gravy and cheese curds.

Give me a napkin, I dropped my chilli fries on the sofa. ;)

NOTE: poutine is native to Quebec and it's made with fries, gravy and cheese curds.
I live across the lake from Toronto. It is one of their dishes there. Our cities are now linked by a ferry, so an editorialist in the Globe and Mail wrote a scathing report on our city. Our paper fought back, showing us that that was the best Toronto dish (and it isn't classy, like our city's cuisine). It also talked a lot about the high prostitution, etc.

Ah. Well I've been wondering if the same problem existed elsewhere. Now that I think about it, there's High German and Low German. I though they were only as different as British English and American English, but now I'm not sure. Are they different languages? And has one of them been eradicated?


High German, what's spoken in Germany, and "Low" German, what's spoken in Austria, are actually fairly similiar. For the most part, they can understand one another.. or at least, I could, when I went to Austria, and I know High German.

High German, what's spoken in Germany, and "Low" German, what's spoken in Austria, are actually fairly similiar. For the most part, they can understand one another.. or at least, I could, when I went to Austria, and I know High German.
So are you saying that they are basically different dialects of the same language?

However, anyone who speaks English can understand eachother. There aren't radical changes between the two.

You have never had the pleasure to hearing a conversation between someone with a broad Northern accent explain to a Southerner something (I forget what it was)

You have never had the pleasure to hearing a conversation between someone with a broad Northern accent explain to a Southerner something (I forget what it was)You mean Northern and Southern England?

You have never had the pleasure to hearing a conversation between someone with a broad Northern accent explain to a Southerner something (I forget what it was)
If you mean Northern and Southern American, most definitly, yes. However, we have a harder time understanding them more than they can't understand us. Even so, we both speak English, and have the same words for everything.

Hungarians are not Hunns.

Yes, they are not Huns. But I haven´t said that. I have stated the fact that the finno-hungarian languages (Hungarian, Finish, Estonian) originated from the Huns and their presence in Europe.

Actually the hunns have nothing to do with those languages. All the fenno-ugric languages were spoken well (WELL) before the hunns arrived in europe round 375 aC.

I'm Saxon and proud of it. While my saxon dialect is not that "bad", it is noticable and generally is noticable in all native Saxons. Saxon is a dialect of German like Bavarian. The official language "High German" is understood by all German people whereas the regional dialects are some form of heritage and passed on to the children on an individual family basis.

chinese have at least fifty dialects - one for each racial group of peoples. the most predominant dialects include mandarin, cantonese, shanghainese, and fukienese.

I´ve heard that there is a huge difference between mandarin and cantonese (which I heard is more spoke in Taiwan, Hong Kong while Mandarin is the official languag of the People´s Republic China). I just know that subtitles are often used in Chinese TV.
Well: I assume that the official language (dialect) is taught in school though, while the dialects are still alive. The alphabetisation of the population leads to the ability to speak a common language (dialect). I assume that may be simular to the development in European countries in the 19 th century.
Though many people in rural areas or remote villages didn´t speak the "High" language for a long time - but the development of alphatesiation and a better education created at the end the ability that everybody can speak the High language.

I´ve heard that there is a huge difference between mandarin and cantonese (which I heard is more spoke in Taiwan, Hong Kong while Mandarin is the official languag of the People´s Republic China). I just know that subtitles are often used in Chinese TV.
Well: I assume that the official language (dialect) is taught in school though, while the dialects are still alive. The alphabetisation of the population leads to the ability to speak a common language (dialect). I assume that may be simular to the development in European countries in the 19 th century.
Though many people in rural areas or remote villages didn´t speak the "High" language for a long time - but the development of alphatesiation and a better education created at the end the ability that everybody can speak the High language.

there is a gigantic difference between mandarin and cantonese. actually, cantonese is taught in hong kong schools and mandarin is a supplement language. of course, although our official language is mandarin chinese and english, the language of common usage is cantonese.

also, the chinese text is the only text in the world which has two kinds of writing. :D thank you chairman mao, except that the simplified form looks disgusting (but again, it has helped raised the literacy in china immensely...)

there is a gigantic difference between mandarin and cantonese. actually, cantonese is taught in hong kong schools and mandarin is a supplement language. of course, although our official language is mandarin chinese and english, the language of common usage is cantonese.

also, the chinese text is the only text in the world which has two kinds of writing. thank you chairman mao, except that the simplified form looks disgusting (but again, it has helped raised the literacy in china immensely...)



Is that simplified version the one called Putonghua??

And hasn´t Japan two or even three different sign systems as well???

Is that simplified version the one called Putonghua??

And hasn´t Japan two or even three different sign systems as well???

the chinese language is called mandarin or "putonghua", which means "common language"

the original chinese text is the "traditonal text", which looks better and is more historically correct. the "simplified text", created by chairman mao who had no regard for history but a lot for literacy, is ugly.

different things, language and text.

do they? i know their text system is half phonetic, half graphic. completely weird.

Yes, Japan has at least two systems of writing, one similar to Chinese, and one using an alphabet, such as the word "Nippon". There are others, also, but I'm not sure what they are.

I'm Saxon and proud of it. While my saxon dialect is not that "bad", it is noticable and generally is noticable in all native Saxons. Saxon is a dialect of German like Bavarian. The official language "High German" is understood by all German people whereas the regional dialects are some form of heritage and passed on to the children on an individual family basis.
Saxon as in Niedersachsen or Saxon as in ossie?

Yes, they are not Huns. But I haven´t said that. I have stated the fact that the finno-hungarian languages (Hungarian, Finish, Estonian) originated from the Huns and their presence in Europe.
Uum..no they didn't. Finno-Ugric languages are a language group of their own.
Hunnic is a Turk language.

i know this isnt exactly related but i thought someone might know. In Britain, we have loads of different accents for different areas of the country, each one equally distinct. I was just wondering whether other countries had similar differences in pronunciation relating to different areas of the country.

Spain actually has three distict languages (are there more I don't know of?)...Castellano (the form of spanish exported to the new world), Basque and Catalan.....and all are completely different. India has tonnes of different dialects....if you want to peek at how some of these languages look go here:

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/navigate/alpha.htm

It's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights translated into every major language....some related (partially understandable) dialects are left out and many native languages aren't included (like Cree).

In Britain, there used to be many regional dialects but since the birth of mass communication; while accents have stayed, the language itself has become more uniform.

I only notice the difference with the Internet. Most people seem to pick up on the differences between Australian and American English (and I am not talking Steve Irwin English either, which is spoken by about 0.0002% of the population.

Like for example a napkin here, would be used by women who are bleeding. Not to wipe up food spills. That would be a serviette (sp?)

Rubbish bins=trash cans

And a thong is a type of footwear.

Also...multilingualism (knowing two or more languages) is more common globally than monolingualism. So if you speak only one language, you are a strange, strange minority:).

También, hablar más que un idioma es más común que hablar uno solo. Entonces, si uno se habla una lengua sola, esta persona es de la menoría de gente en el mundo.

Also...multilingualism (knowing two or more languages) is more common globally than monolingualism. So if you speak only one language, you are a strange, strange minority:).

También, hablar más que un idioma es más común que hablar uno solo. Entonces, si uno se habla una lengua sola, esta persona es de la menoría de gente en el mundo.

Hai you, reng shi duo zong yu yan de ren bi zhi ren shi yi zong yu yan de ren duo. so yi, ru guo nin zhi shi dong shuo yi zhong yu yan, nin bian shi shu yu yi ge shi fen xiao de xiao shu.

Spain actually has three distict languages (are there more I don't know of?)...Castellano (the form of spanish exported to the new world), Basque and Catalan.....and all are completely different. India has tonnes of different dialects....if you want to peek at how some of these languages look go here:

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/navigate/alpha.htm

It's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights translated into every major language....some related (partially understandable) dialects are left out and many native languages aren't included (like Cree).
Most of the Cree speakers left, and indeed, most speakers of native languages in North America, are old and their children have no interest in learning them. The UN saw the linguistical future whhen it didn't translate its documents into Cree, or Cherokee, or Houdinoshaunee.

the chinese language is called mandarin or "putonghua", which means "common language"

the original chinese text is the "traditonal text", which looks better and is more historically correct. the "simplified text", created by chairman mao who had no regard for history but a lot for literacy, is ugly.

different things, language and text.

do they? i know their text system is half phonetic, half graphic. completely weird.
I heard that, for this reason, Mandarin Chinese is considered to be the toughest language in the world to understand. You're lucky that you learned it when you were young.