NationStates Jolt Archive


Definitions...

Yes penguins
29-07-2004, 20:10
Seems that many people are talking about "sin", "morality", ect...

Perhaps we should clarify a few things here...(i didnt post all of the definitions. thats why i linked. i just posted common/relevant ones)...

SIN
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=sin
1. Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the
divine command; any violation of God's will, either in
purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character;
iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
...


{sins} (R. C. Ch.), willful and deliberate transgressions,
which take away divine grace; -- in distinction from
vental sins. The seven deadly sins are pride,
covetousness, lust, wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth.
...
1. To depart voluntarily from the path of duty prescribed by
God to man; to violate the divine law in any particular,
by actual transgression or by the neglect or nonobservance
of its injunctions; to violate any known rule of duty; --
often followed by against.
...


2. To violate human rights, law, or propriety; to commit an
offense; to trespass; to transgress.

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Now, while most of these definitions (i didnt post all of them. thats why i linked. i just posted common/relevant ones) deal with "divine laws" and such, there are other definitions that are non-religious. understandable..
---


MORAL
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=moral
2. Conformed to accepted rules of right; acting in conformity
with such rules; virtuous; just; as, a moral man. Used
sometimes in distinction from religious; as, a moral
rather than a religious life.
...
[adj] concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"
...
[adj] adhering to ethical and moral principles; "it seems ethical and right"; "followed the only honorable course of action"; "had the moral courage to stand alone"
[adj] arising from the sense of right and wrong; "a moral obligation"
[adj] relating to principles of right and wrong; i.e. to morals or ethics; "moral philosophy"
...

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seems to be nothing but predefind standards of "right and wrong". but what IS "right?"
---

RIGHT
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=right


3. Conformed to the constitution of man and the will of God,
or to justice and equity; not deviating from the true and
just; according with truth and duty; just; true.
...


6. According with truth; passing a true judgment; conforming
to fact or intent; not mistaken or wrong; not erroneous;
correct; as, this is the right faith.
...

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This all seems quite subjective. Now, what of "natural"? Ill bet thats subjective too.
---

NATURAL
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=natural
1. Fixed or determined by nature; pertaining to the
constitution of a thing; belonging to native character;
according to nature; essential; characteristic; not
artifical, foreign, assumed, put on, or acquired; as, the
natural growth of animals or plants; the natural motion of
a gravitating body; natural strength or disposition; the
natural heat of the body; natural color.
...


2. Conformed to the order, laws, or actual facts, of nature;
consonant to the methods of nature; according to the
stated course of things, or in accordance with the laws
which govern events, feelings, etc.; not exceptional or
violent; legitimate; normal; regular; as, the natural
consequence of crime; a natural death.
...


5. Having the character or sentiments properly belonging to
one's position; not unnatural in feelings.
...

---
/me points to def. 5
Looks like a feeling is natural. *BUZZ* on gay argument
/me points to 1 now
*BUZZ* on nudity is not natural
---
Now, for issues we've discussed
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HOMOSEXUAL
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=homosexual
WordNet Dictionary

Definition:
[n] someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex
[adj] sexually attracted to members of your own sex

Synonyms: butch, gay, gay, homo, homoerotic, homophile(a), lesbian, paederastic, pederastic, queer, sapphic, transsexual(a), transvestic, transvestite(a), tribadistic

Antonyms: bisexual, heterosexual

See Also: gay man, gay woman, human, individual, lesbian, mortal, person, shirtlifter, somebody, someone, soul




Medical Dictionary

Definition: A person who is sexually attracted to persons of the same sex.

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Wow. not much here, eh? "Gay" then.
---

GAY
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=gay
[adj] homosexual or arousing homosexual desires (WorldNet)
...
Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition:

\Gay\, a. [Compar. {Gayer}; superl. {Gayest}.] [F. gai,
perhaps fr. OHG. g?hi swift, rapid, G. g["a]h, j["a]h, steep,
hasty; or cf. OHG. w?hi beatiful, good. Cf. {Jay}.]
1. Excited with merriment; manifesting sportiveness or
delight; inspiring delight; livery; merry.

Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay. --Pope.

Gay hope is theirs by fancy fed. --Gray.

2. Brilliant in colors; splendid; fine; richly dressed.

Why is my neighbor's wife so gay? --Chaucer.

A bevy of fair women, richly gay In gems and wanton
dress! --Milton.

3. Loose; dissipated; lewd. [Colloq.]

Syn: Merry; gleeful; blithe; airy; lively; sprightly,
sportive; light-hearted; frolicsome; jolly; jovial;
joyous; joyful; glad; showy; splendid; vivacious.


\Gay\, n.
An ornament [Obs.] --L'Estrange.

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Looks like the way its used today isnt the same as earlier in the 20th century. Note the gay=happy. Coincidence?
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MARRIAGE
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=marriage
1. The act of marrying, or the state of being married; legal
union of a man and a woman for life, as husband and wife;
wedlock; matrimony.
...


4. Any intimate or close union.
...
Usage: {Marriage}, {Matrimony}, {Wedlock}. Marriage is
properly the act which unites the two parties, and
matrimony the state into which they enter. Marriage
is, however, often used for the state as well as the
act. Wedlock is the old Anglo-Saxon term for
matrimony.
...
[n] the act of marrying; the nuptial ceremony; "their marriage was conducted in the chapel"
[n] two people who are married to each other; "his second marriage was happier than the first"; "a married couple without love"
[n] state of being husband and wife; "a long and happy marriage"; "God bless this union"
[n] a close and intimate union; "the marriage of music and dance"; "a marriage of ideas"

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on the page there are about 3 refrences to "husband and wife"
Lets examine the technicality of the terms...
(note that not every example limited it to husband and wife!)
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HUSBAND
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=husband

1. The male head of a household; one who orders the economy
of a family. [Obs.]
...


3. One who manages or directs with prudence and economy; a
frugal person; an economist. [R.]
...

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Ok, it seems husband=man=economist?
---

WIFE
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=wife
[n] a married woman; a man's partner in marriage
---
Not much here, so i went with the simple WorldNet definition.
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CONCLUSION

While most dictionaries suck, hyperdictionary 0wnz j00.

er.....

If you read all that.. wow...
Anyway. What I was trying to prove was that morals are subjective, dictionary definitions differ, and most of it depends on religion.
Rhyno D
30-07-2004, 19:03
OO! Dictionaries! I love proving people's ignorance with dictionaries! It's so easy, too.


Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary,

pg. 969
religion: #4 A cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

pg. 408
(1) faith: 2 b (1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) complete confidence 3 something that is believed esp with strong conviction; esp: a system of religious beliefs
(2) faith: BELIEVE, TRUST

pg. 70
atheism: 1 b the doctrine that there is no diety

pg. 333
doctrine: 2 b principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief


Thus:
Atheism is doctrine, or set of principles, and since there is no concrete proof, you must have faith in it.
Thus:
Atheism is principles that are held with faith.
Rhyno D
30-07-2004, 19:05
Anyway. What I was trying to prove was that morals are subjective, dictionary definitions differ, and most of it depends on religion.
Morals are subjective, eh? Does that mean slavery was morally right in America before the Civil War?
Berkylvania
30-07-2004, 19:07
Morals are subjective, eh? Does that mean slavery was morally right in America before the Civil War?

No, but it was legal. And the Bible actually endorses it, so...
Balsowood
30-07-2004, 19:14
I love proving people wrong. I always have a dictionary on hand. The one I've got now is called the merriam-webster dictionary. It's my bible. Oh and you can call me a nerd. I'm fine with it.
nerd n : an unstylish or socially inept person; esp : one slavishly devoted to intellectual pursuits -- nerdy adj
Bodies Without Organs
30-07-2004, 19:23
Morals are subjective, eh?

"Subjectivity is objective."


Someday someone will recognise that quote...
Rhyno D
30-07-2004, 19:24
No, but it was legal. And the Bible actually endorses it, so...
So, they made something legal, that wasn't moral? Tell me how that works!

And no, the Bible does not endorse it. Find the verse.
Fistandantillopolis
30-07-2004, 19:30
Morals are subjective, eh? Does that mean slavery was morally right in America before the Civil War?

Yes. Slavery was considered morally right and acceptable by most civilizations.
Fistandantillopolis
30-07-2004, 19:40
HOMOSEXUAL
http://hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=homosexual
WordNet Dictionary

Definition:
[n] someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex
[adj] sexually attracted to members of your own sex

Synonyms: butch, gay, gay, homo, homoerotic, homophile(a), lesbian, paederastic, pederastic, queer, sapphic, transsexual(a), transvestic, transvestite(a), tribadistic

Antonyms: bisexual, heterosexual

See Also: gay man, gay woman, human, individual, lesbian, mortal, person, shirtlifter, somebody, someone, soul

:eek: :eek: :eek:
American website obviously
Rhyno D
30-07-2004, 19:40
Yes. Slavery was considered morally right and acceptable by most civilizations.
Ah, but does that make it right? No. It was always wrong.
Jessicia
30-07-2004, 19:41
So, they made something legal, that wasn't moral? Tell me how that works!

And no, the Bible does not endorse it. Find the verse.

The old testiment. With all the rules to live by stuff. Tells one how one must treat their slave.
Rhyno D
30-07-2004, 19:43
The old testiment. With all the rules to live by stuff. Tells one how one must treat their slave.
But does it say that you should have slaves? no.
It says IF you have a slave, you should be nice to them. If, as in you shouldn't have slaves, but if you do, than treat them nicely.
Jessicia
30-07-2004, 19:45
Morals are subjective, eh? Does that mean slavery was morally right in America before the Civil War?

That doesn't make sense for one. And two, they considered it right. Therefore to them, it was morally right. Just as it was morally ok to kill a chicken and bake it. They didn't really consider black people human or people on the level that whites were. Although whites held the same ideas about each other too, such as English attitude towards Irish even though they didn't officially enslave.
Abydo
30-07-2004, 19:47
But does it say that you should have slaves? no.
It says IF you have a slave, you should be nice to them. If, as in you shouldn't have slaves, but if you do, than treat them nicely.

That is patently false, as the Old Testament provides rules for obtaining slaves. If it declared you shouldn't own them, then there wouldn't be instructions on how to go about obtaining them.
Jessicia
30-07-2004, 19:47
But does it say that you should have slaves? no.
It says IF you have a slave, you should be nice to them. If, as in you shouldn't have slaves, but if you do, than treat them nicely.

All right.Thanks for the clarification.
Berkylvania
30-07-2004, 19:56
So, they made something legal, that wasn't moral? Tell me how that works!

It works quite often, actually. Rarely do laws and morals synch up.


And no, the Bible does not endorse it. Find the verse.

"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;"--Ephesians 6:5

"The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."--Luke 12:45-48

"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."--Exodus 21:20-21

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."--Leviticus 25:44-46
Fistandantillopolis
30-07-2004, 19:57
But does it say that you should have slaves? no.
It says IF you have a slave, you should be nice to them. If, as in you shouldn't have slaves, but if you do, than treat them nicely.
The bible says not to eat shelfish. If they thought slavery was wrong they would have said do not keep slaves, but that is not what it says.
Rhyno D
31-07-2004, 15:45
It works quite often, actually. Rarely do laws and morals synch up.



"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;"--Ephesians 6:5

"The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."--Luke 12:45-48

"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."--Exodus 21:20-21

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."--Leviticus 25:44-46

I had a nice long reply but my comp froze up. I'll post the last bit.

1 Corinthians 10
23"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

In other words, you can do anything you want, but it's not the best idea. Yeah, you can own slaves, but you shouldn't. Yeah, you can sin and do whatever you want, but you shouldn't. God is telling them that if you have slaves, cuz he knew they were going to, at least follow those rules.
I would also like to point out that slaves in that day were most often people in debt. I would also like to point out that the Bible tells you to treat them like human beings and not like property.
Jeldred
31-07-2004, 16:40
I would also like to point out that the Bible tells you to treat them like human beings and not like property.

"...You can will them to your children as inherited property..."

Which is not to say that there aren't other bits in the Bible that say other things. it's not exactly free from inconsistency.
Rhyno D
31-07-2004, 18:23
"...You can will them to your children as inherited property..."

Which is not to say that there aren't other bits in the Bible that say other things. it's not exactly free from inconsistency.
Actually, it is free from inconsitency.

Also, what verse is that from?
Chechache
31-07-2004, 18:33
Exodus 21:7. It completely supports and encourages slavery.
Frisbee Seppuku
31-07-2004, 18:41
:headbang: Wait a second, if any doctrine that involves faith is a religion...how dare our governments publicly endorse democracy!? This breach of the separation of church and state is intolerable! Indeed, following Descartes, how dare they even allege any of their citizens even exist, I find this incredibly offensive; who's with me? The only thing that we can do to combat this evil is commit Seppuku with our frisbee's. Get ready everyone...
Rhyno D
01-08-2004, 02:48
Exodus 21:7. It completely supports and encourages slavery.

No, Exodus 21:7 is: If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.

And again, IF. The whole point of these laws are so that God can try to work into them, instead of just jumping up and saying "NO!" He's trying to get them to learn on their own, which they repeatedly have a hard time doing.

Read these verses before you post them. Oh, and that verse is basically the same in KJV, and five other random versions that I just checked.
Rhyno D
01-08-2004, 02:50
Oh, and I just checked:
There is no verse in the Bible with children and property in the same sentense.
Rhyno D
01-08-2004, 02:54
Niether is there a verse with slave and property in the same sentense.
Rhyno D
01-08-2004, 03:01
There's only two verses with inherited and property in it, neither of which concern slaves.
Genesis 25:31 & 1 Chronicles 5:1
Jeldred
01-08-2004, 15:08
"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

"Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

"And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor."




"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

"You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

"You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."




"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

"Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.

"You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another."



"If you want slaves, buy them from other nations

"or from the foreigners who live in your own country, and make them your property.

"You can own them, and even leave them to your children when you die, but do not make slaves of your own people or be cruel to them."

Should I go on?