NationStates Jolt Archive

Astounding Benefit of Believing in Hell

Countries whose citizens believe in hell are not only less corrupt, but also more prosperous. That's the word from economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, who were trying to figure out why some nations are so much richer than others. In addition to looking at productivity and investment factors, they examined some unconventional ideas to explain differences in national prosperity, reports Reuters. It turned out that belief in hell was very telling.
Drawing on the research from several outside economists, the St. Louis Fed studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India, and Turkey and realized that religion was a powerful economic force. "In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St. Louis Fed wrote in its July quarterly review. In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.
Don't believe it? Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.

well you've got me convinced.

I now believe in Hell and am going to go door to door to tell everyone about how horrible hell is and to never go there.

Well, it's understandable that a country would be less corrupt in that sense - the carrot and stick method can be quite effective in obedience - that being the whole point of religion. But where does the higher standard of living come from, does the research say? Obviously, it would be reasonably increased by less corruption but would that be enough? And how do they prove a practical correllation between belief in hell and a higher standard of living?

By the way,

Wow. Fear is directly protortional to a country's prosparity. I never knew that.

I was going to say, by the way, what brand of it (religion) are you peddling, Whittier?

But the US didn't invent anarcho-communism or anime (Neither did Ireland). What kind of message does that send? On the other hand, it did make Star Trek, but still, that alone doesn't mean that a belief is the reason for something.

Not to start a whole nother debate, Sumamba Buwhan but what are American laws based upon if not religion?

geez, you mean threatening people with torture makes them more likely to be submissive and obedient? who would have guessed!

and hey, if belief in hell is so effective, then why not take things to the next logical step? if the All-wise God punishes his creatures with tortures infinite in cruelty and duration, why should not his ministers, as far as they can, imitate him? let's encourage the use of torture to keep order in our societies!

does this include countries where people believe in buddhist hell?

Not to start a whole nother debate, Sumamba Buwhan but what are American laws based upon if not religion?

why not ask John Adams, one of the men who designed those very laws?

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that anypersons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses..." - John Adams, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788]

or perhaps Robert Ingersoll, who said it very nicely:

"It is contended by many that ours is a Christian government, founded upon the Bible, and that all who look upon that book as false or foolish are destroying the foundation of our country. The truth is, our government is not founded upon the rights of gods, but upon the rights of men. Our Constitution was framed, not to declare and uphold the deity of Christ, but the sacredness of humanity. Ours is the first government made by the people for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have nothing to do. And yet there are some judges dishonest and cowardly enough to solemnly decide that this is a Christian country, and that our free institutions are based upon the infamous laws of Jehovah."

or how about this lovely example, from Rev. Dr. Wilson?

"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory."

hope that was helpful to you.

and hey, if belief in hell is so effective, then why not take things to the next logical step? if the All-wise God punishes his creatures with tortures infinite in cruelty and duration, why should not his ministers, as far as they can, imitate him? let's encourage the use of torture to keep order in our societies!

Well, in this country people arguing to bring back corporal punishment in schools say it would be more the threat of its use than its actual use that would be the deterrent. In that way, physical harm is (theoretially) minimised. I think this is the idea behind the the stick in most carrot-and-stick methods - including this one.

Maybe it's prosperity that gives citizens a fear of hell, rather than a fear of hell giving them prosperity.

why not ask John Adams, one of the men who designed those very laws?

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that anypersons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses..." - John Adams, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788]

or perhaps Robert Ingersoll, who said it very nicely:

"It is contended by many that ours is a Christian government, founded upon the Bible, and that all who look upon that book as false or foolish are destroying the foundation of our country. The truth is, our government is not founded upon the rights of gods, but upon the rights of men. Our Constitution was framed, not to declare and uphold the deity of Christ, but the sacredness of humanity. Ours is the first government made by the people for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have nothing to do. And yet there are some judges dishonest and cowardly enough to solemnly decide that this is a Christian country, and that our free institutions are based upon the infamous laws of Jehovah."

or how about this lovely example, from Rev. Dr. Wilson?

"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory."

hope that was helpful to you.


Yes but how do these quotes translate to actual laws? And if Robert Ingersoll implies it is not a Christian country, then why is it 'one nation under god'?

Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.


No, lets look at Ireland twenty years ago and further back, when it was a much more religious country, and more people there believed in hell. Theoretically it should have had a booming economy according to this theory, but actually was a stagnant depressed place. It was only during the late eighties (bizarrely enough when many of the more religiously influenced laws were repealed) that the first growlings of the Celtic Tiger were heard.

Yes but how do these quotes translate to actual laws? And if Robert Ingersoll implies it is not a Christian country, then why is it 'one nation under god'?

what do you mean, how do they translate? what the quotes are saying is that ALL our laws are grounded on secular principles. what about that confuses you?

as to your second question, "under God" was added to both the Pledge and to our currency during the Cold War (in about the 1950s), in a political manuever against the "godless Communists." though "under God" did appear for the first time i think during the Civil War, briefly, and for the same reason...the Union was trying to assert that God was on their side of the war, not the Confederacy's.

Astounding Benefit of Believing in Hell

Countries whose citizens believe in hell are not only less corrupt, but also more prosperous. That's the word from economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, who were trying to figure out why some nations are so much richer than others. In addition to looking at productivity and investment factors, they examined some unconventional ideas to explain differences in national prosperity, reports Reuters. It turned out that belief in hell was very telling.
Drawing on the research from several outside economists, the St. Louis Fed studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India, and Turkey and realized that religion was a powerful economic force. "In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St. Louis Fed wrote in its July quarterly review. In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.
Don't believe it? Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.

That was on CNN and dismissed as absurd...all of the Muslim countries in the Middle East have a huge portion of their population believing in hell, but their economies tend to suck (aside from the oil industry). I mean, where's Afghanistan's economy? They're all good, Allah-abiding, hell-believing Muslims, aren't they?

Yeah I was gonna post something brilliant there but I can't remember it now. Ah well.

Astounding Benefit of Believing in Hell

Don't believe it? Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.

that's not right I know for a fact that Ireland is one of the poorest westernized states. Just about there only major export is computer chips but they are made in factorys (few good paying jobs there). The only reson they have that is because there labour is cheap. u must be misstaken for a different country.

No, lets look at Ireland twenty years ago and further back, when it was a much more religious country, and more people there believed in hell. Theoretically it should have had a booming economy according to this theory, but actually was a stagnant depressed place. It was only during the late eighties (bizarrely enough when many of the more religiously influenced laws were repealed) that the first growlings of the Celtic Tiger were heard.


I think the mention of the religious laws is a good point but i don't think Whittier is suggesting that prosperity in these countries is solely dependent upon a belief in hell but that it is a factor.

what do you mean, how do they translate? what the quotes are saying is that ALL our laws are grounded on secular principles. what about that confuses you?

I'm just wondering why a person should have to accept someone else's account of the laws when they are available for your own inspection.

as to your second question, "under God" was added to both the Pledge and to our currency during the Cold War (in about the 1950s), in a political manuever against the "godless Communists." though "under God" did appear for the first time i think during the Civil War, briefly, and for the same reason...the Union was trying to assert that God was on their side of the war, not the Confederacy's.


Ah, i didn't know that. Pure ignorance on my part, sorry. Hmm...surely they should remove it now considering the cold war is over.

Astounding Benefit of Believing in Hell

Countries whose citizens believe in hell are not only less corrupt, but also more prosperous. That's the word from economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, who were trying to figure out why some nations are so much richer than others. In addition to looking at productivity and investment factors, they examined some unconventional ideas to explain differences in national prosperity, reports Reuters. It turned out that belief in hell was very telling.
Drawing on the research from several outside economists, the St. Louis Fed studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India, and Turkey and realized that religion was a powerful economic force. "In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St. Louis Fed wrote in its July quarterly review. In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.
Don't believe it? Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.

How many South/Central American countries did the FRB of St. Louise include in its study? You know, the strongly Catholic and highly corrupt "banana republics"?

I'm just wondering why a person should have to accept someone else's account of the laws when they are available for your own inspection.

huh? yeah, the laws are available to read...i don't see why any of America's laws are based on God of any kind. why would we need God to justify any of them? why would any of them be less effective or less moral if we don't believe in God? what about our laws makes you think they were founded on religion? especially since the words of the founding fathers specifically state that is not the case?

Ah, i didn't know that. Pure ignorance on my part, sorry. Hmm...surely they should remove it now considering the cold war is over.
you would think so, wouldn't you? and yet i am called unpatriotic (and worse) simply because i believe the Pledge and the currency should be returned to their original forms.

That was on CNN and dismissed as absurd...all of the Muslim countries in the Middle East have a huge portion of their population believing in hell, but their economies tend to suck (aside from the oil industry). I mean, where's Afghanistan's economy? They're all good, Allah-abiding, hell-believing Muslims, aren't they?


Do keep in mind most of the middle east is in and out of war and oppestion alot, so it's hard to biuld a economy on that unless your suppleing it as well.

and look at kuwait. every cidizen is rich. all the labours are from nearby nations, and still ther payed 3 times as much as they are back at home. granted it's all oil there to.

that's not right I know for a fact that Ireland is one of the poorest westernized states.

Really?

Eire GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $29,800

UK GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,700

Germany GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,600

France GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,500



Source CIA world factbook 2004.

I think the mention of the religious laws is a good point but i don't think Whittier is suggesting that prosperity in these countries is solely dependent upon a belief in hell but that it is a factor.

I mentioned the religiously influenced laws (such as controls on the sale of condoms in Eire) purely as a coincidental side note - but it is undeniable that Eire is currently much less religious than it was twenty or thirty years ago, yet is much more economically powerful.

It may well be a fact that the study did find a correlation between economic power and the percentage of people that believe in hell, but they did not show that there existed any causal relation between the two. Their sample was only 35 countries, and so pure chance is almost certain to throw up some entertaining but implausible correlation such as this with such a limited set of data.

In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.

Or perhaps it is.

It may well be a fact that the study did find a correlation between economic power and the percentage of people that believe in hell, but they did not show that there existed any causal relation between the two. Their sample was only 35 countries, and so pure chance is almost certain to throw up some entertaining but implausible correlation such as this with such a limited set of data.

a recent study (which i will try to find a link to) found that successful nations usually have higher rates of obesity than less economicall successful nations. anybody feel like claiming that being fat makes a country more successful?

Really?

Eire GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $29,800

UK GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,700

Germany GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,600

France GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $27,500



Source CIA world factbook 2004.

purchasing power and income are 2 completely different things.

the reson why it's so high is becuase there poor so everything is cheap. Just like in Canada(purchasing power parity - $29,700 (2003 est.) ). because we are so poor compared to the rest of the west we have the cheapest electronics in the west.

Source CIA world factbook 2004

In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.


in the United States, 64 percent of the population is medically overweight. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.

purchasing power and income are 2 completely different things.



OK: same source - "Per capita GDP is 10% above that of the four big European economies."

the reson why it's so high is becuase there poor so everything is cheap.

Incredibly incorrect, quite possibly laughably so.

Different source: http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm

June 2004: Ireland is the most expensive of the European Union's 25 states according to a survey, which has been published by the European Union's statistics office Eurostat.

Irish food, alcohol and tobacco prices are higher in Ireland than in any other country of the EU 25-44% above the average. Both Germany and Belgium are 4% above the average and Spain is 19% below the average.

The cost of fruit, vegetables, coffee, tea and soft drinks is 40% above the EU 25 average while the cost of the same combination of goods in Germany is just 1% above the average.

The 2003 survey of prices, including the 10 accession states, found a basket of food, beverages and cigarettes in Ireland costs about 2.6 times more than in Poland the lowest in the EU where prices for the same products are just 55% of the EU average.

Edit: note that the above survey took place after the introduction of the Euro in Ireland, and so direct comparisons between other Euro-using EU memberstates can be drawn without complication of exchange rates.

hell sux heaven is the reaon ppl live :sniper:

huh? yeah, the laws are available to read...i don't see why any of America's laws are based on God of any kind. why would we need God to justify any of them? why would any of them be less effective or less moral if we don't believe in God? Well, i may be misunderstanding your question but without a god (or at least some kind of religion) morality is pretty much a personal - and in that way subjective - thing. It's hard to enforce morality without some kind of undeniable authority: if one person says stealing is morally wrong then another may just as well say 'Well, that's your opinion.'

what about our laws makes you think they were founded on religion?

Well, i do admit my knowledge of American law is incredibly poor but i would have thought considering a good lot of the population was Christian at the time and i can't see American law being founded entirely on logic so there must have been some form of morality that influenced it and the main one to hand was Christianity.

especially since the words of the founding fathers specifically state that is not the case?

Well, it's good practice in any historical research to consult more than one source to make sure the conclusions are corroborated and the laws themselves are primary evidence, so it would make sense to analyse them. (Though, i assume in the U.S. implying that the founding fathers may have lied is tantamount to treason but until we get rights of citizenship here in the 51st, i don't think it concerns me. :P )

you would think so, wouldn't you? and yet i am called unpatriotic (and worse) simply because i believe the Pledge and the currency should be returned to their original forms.

Hm...or alternatively, they could be more specific so it fits this (arguably mis-named) Cold War on Terror: One Nation under the Lord ;)

a recent study (which i will try to find a link to) found that successful nations usually have higher rates of obesity than less economicall successful nations. anybody feel like claiming that being fat makes a country more successful?

Oh, totally.

Why do you think it's the FAT cats that are so successful?

It's not 'cause they're tricky or sneaky or guile or any of that.



It's because nothing creates respect in the buisness world like a nice gut. That's why nobody likes Gates. He doesn't have a belly.

Hm...or alternatively, they could be more specific so it fits this (arguably mis-named) Cold War on Terror: One Nation under the Lord ;)

Ah, that would be the Lord of Abraham, as opposed to the Lord of Abraham as worshipped by the Jews, and the Lord of Abraham as worshipped by the demonised Muslims then?

It's because nothing creates respect in the buisness world like a nice gut. That's why nobody likes Gates. He doesn't have a belly.

Ah, his complete and utter lack of charisma or social skills was just a smokescreen to divert attention from the real reasons for his unpopularity.

Countries whose citizens believe in hell are not only less corrupt, but also more prosperous.

Why is being prosperous considered a de facto good thing?

Ah, that would be the Lord of Abraham, as opposed to the Lord of Abraham as worshipped by the Jews, and the Lord of Abraham as worshipped by the demonised Muslims then?

O.K. i've been told that the god of Judaeo-Christians was the same one as that of the Muslims, then i was corrected and now i've been re-corrected. So i'm thouroughly confused now.

Ah, his complete and utter lack of charisma or social skills was just a smokescreen to divert attention from the real reasons for his unpopularity.


Exactly.

Astounding Benefit of Believing in Hell

Countries whose citizens believe in hell are not only less corrupt, but also more prosperous. That's the word from economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, who were trying to figure out why some nations are so much richer than others. In addition to looking at productivity and investment factors, they examined some unconventional ideas to explain differences in national prosperity, reports Reuters. It turned out that belief in hell was very telling.
Drawing on the research from several outside economists, the St. Louis Fed studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India, and Turkey and realized that religion was a powerful economic force. "In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St. Louis Fed wrote in its July quarterly review. In the United States, 71 percent of the population believes in hell. Perhaps it's no coincidence that it also has the world's highest per capita income.
Don't believe it? Look at Ireland. As Reuters says, the Irish have a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 percent of the population acknowledging hell's existence, and the country is not far behind the United States in terms of income.
I've heard that. I believe that it has a lot to do with morality, as hell is a surefire (no pun intended) way to instill some morals in people, and thus, provide people with a code of ethics. The link between morality and a good economy has been shown, but the question is what that link is. I believe it is due to the lack of corruption, and also the work ethic. After all, does any religion promote laziness? Most Christians agree, afterall, that sloth is a grave sin.

a recent study (which i will try to find a link to) found that successful nations usually have higher rates of obesity than less economicall successful nations. anybody feel like claiming that being fat makes a country more successful?
Maybe being a successful country means that your people have more money and thus eat too much

Nah....that's doesn't make sense
We'll have to keep thinking on that one...

One benefit of hell is that you'll never get cold.

One benefit of hell is that you'll never get cold.


Or hungry, just start eating whoever's next to you, they should be thouroughly cooked.

O.K. i've been told that the god of Judaeo-Christians was the same one as that of the Muslims, then i was corrected and now i've been re-corrected. So i'm thouroughly confused now.

Cut and paste time then: from a website of which I know nothing, but what it says here is in general agreement with what I believe to be the case:

http://members.tripod.com/Islam4Mankind/faq.html

What do Muslims believe?

Muslims believe In One, Unique, Incomparable God; In the Angels created by Him; In the Prophets through whom His revelations were brought to mankind; In the Day of Judgment and Individual accountability for actions; In God's complete authority of human destiny and in life after death. Muslims believe In a chain of Prophets starting with Adam and Including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John the Baptist, and Jesus, peace be upon them. But God's final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing-up of all that has gone before was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through Angel Gabriel.

Does Islam and Christianity have different origins?

No. Together with Judaism, they go back to the Prophet Abraham, and their three Prophets are directly descended from his sons - Muhammad (pbuh) from the eldest Ishmael, and Moses and Jesus from Isaac, peace be upon them. Abraham established the settlement which today is the city of Makkah, and built the Ka'ba towards which all Muslims turn when they pray.

One benefit of hell is that you'll never get cold.

Unless you happen to be sent to the ninth circle which is an eternally frozen lake. Huh - you would think the kids today hadn't been paying attention when they read their Dante...

Unless you happen to be sent to the ninth circle which is an eternally frozen lake. Huh - you would think the kids today hadn't been paying attention when they read their Dante...

I saw this test posted on the forum that told me I would go all the way to the 9th circle.

In that case you would never get hot.

Unless you happen to be sent to the ninth circle which is an eternally frozen lake. Huh - you would think the kids today hadn't been paying attention when they read their Dante...
NOOO
I'd been counting on hell being hot
I can't stand the cold
what am I going to do?!!
Guess I should start believing in hell...

Cut and paste time then: from a website of which I know nothing, but what it says here is in general agreement with what I believe to be the case:

http://members.tripod.com/Islam4Mankind/faq.html

Thanks for that Bodies. That's kind of interesting because some pro-Israeli tried to tell me that Islam is explicitly anti-Jewish.

Thanks for that Bodies. That's kind of interesting because some pro-Israeli tried to tell me that Islam is explicitly anti-Jewish.

As I said I can't vouch for the reliability of that website, but it is indisputable that the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims are united in recognising Abraham* as a father of their religion.


*amongst others.

I was going to say, by the way, what brand of it (religion) are you peddling, Whittier?
None. I just want to read your opinion of this AP article.
Though I'm not sure just how related it is to corruption cause fact is that US has corruption just like everyone else.

geez, you mean threatening people with torture makes them more likely to be submissive and obedient? who would have guessed!

and hey, if belief in hell is so effective, then why not take things to the next logical step? if the All-wise God punishes his creatures with tortures infinite in cruelty and duration, why should not his ministers, as far as they can, imitate him? let's encourage the use of torture to keep order in our societies!
most christian americans don't beleive hell is aplace of eternal torment. They believe it is eternal seperation from God.

How many South/Central American countries did the FRB of St. Louise include in its study? You know, the strongly Catholic and highly corrupt "banana republics"?
good question

most christian americans don't beleive hell is aplace of eternal torment. They believe it is eternal seperation from God.

oh, and seperation from God isn't a horrible thing? my understanding was that, to the believers, being forever seperated from God is the worst thing that could ever happen to you. granted, to me it sounds like the best possible world (to be forever seperated from the Judeo-Christian God and His followers), but i have been told repeatedly that it's a bad thing to believers.

also, i don't thinkyou are right when you say "most" Christian Americans don't see hell as a place of eternal torment...in fact, i have NEVER, in my fairly extensive experience, come across a person who believes in Hell but doesn't believe there is torture involved. i have attended the religious ceremonies of two sects of Judaism and 6 different denominations of Christianity, was raised by a Methodist nanny, am dating a boy who was raised conservative Christian, and have a father who was raised Jewish and a grandmother who was raised Catholic. of all the people i have encountered through these various contacts, not a single one holds the view you described. i don't think the people i know are so weird or exceptional that they ALL are in the minority of American Christians.

oh, and seperation from God isn't a horrible thing? my understanding was that, to the believers, being forever seperated from God is the worst thing that could ever happen to you. granted, to me it sounds like the best possible world (to be forever seperated from the Judeo-Christian God and His followers), but i have been told repeatedly that it's a bad thing to believers.

also, i don't thinkyou are right when you say "most" Christian Americans don't see hell as a place of eternal torment...in fact, i have NEVER, in my fairly extensive experience, come across a person who believes in Hell but doesn't believe there is torture involved. i have attended the religious ceremonies of two sects of Judaism and 6 different denominations of Christianity, was raised by a Methodist nanny, am dating a boy who was raised conservative Christian, and have a father who was raised Jewish and a grandmother who was raised Catholic. of all the people i have encountered through these various contacts, not a single one holds the view you described. i don't think the people i know are so weird or exceptional that they ALL are in the minority of American Christians.

that's just what the article reported. I have doubts. That is my belief about hell cause that is what the bible teaches about hell.
So supposedly, 45% of American christians share my belief.
Excuse me for skeptical but we are talking about people who tend to be hypocritical in their religion and who have repeatedly turned God's house into a den for theives and robbers. So, basically, I agree with you. I was just posting what the article said.

a recent study (which i will try to find a link to) found that successful nations usually have higher rates of obesity than less economicall successful nations. anybody feel like claiming that being fat makes a country more successful?
I think it's the opposite: success makes a nation fat, primarily because of the availability of food that's just not found in the developing world.

I think it's the opposite: success makes a nation fat, primarily because of the availability of food that's just not found in the developing world.

As though that's a good thing. People in third world countries suffer in sweatshops and Americans are getting dangerously obese. Both the exploiter and exploitee are suffering.

As though that's a good thing. People in third world countries suffer in sweatshops and Americans are getting dangerously obese. Both the exploiter and exploitee are suffering.
If you prefer to look at it that way, yes. However, demographically, those undernourished tend to be those without any sort of factory in their area. Sad but true.