NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't just mean the U.S here...we do it in Canada too, but I won't speak for Europe. Here's what I mean:

We define ourselves by our jobs...a measure of our happiness is whether we feel fulfilled by our careers, and we work too much! We get into crazy debt because we want what the Joneses have, and we figure we'll rest when we retire...meanwhile our children raise themselves and we work ourselves until we topple over from massive heartattacks.

I call for a 4 day work week!

Strange, the French are buisly lamenting going to a 35 hour work week...

I don't just mean the U.S here...we do it in Canada too, but I won't speak for Europe. Here's what I mean:

We define ourselves by our jobs...a measure of our happiness is whether we feel fulfilled by our careers, and we work too much! We get into crazy debt because we want what the Joneses have, and we figure we'll rest when we retire...meanwhile our children raise themselves and we work ourselves until we topple over from massive heartattacks.

I call for a 4 day work week!
I don't know bout the US or Canada. But my mom works 4 days. Actually she had the choice to work either 36 or 40 hours. 36 hours meant 4 days a week. 9 hours a day. 40 hours a week meant 4 hours extra paid leave. I guess it depends on what kind of work your doing.

Strange, the French are buisly lamenting going to a 35 hour work week...

...because they WANT to, or DON'T want to??

I don't know bout the US or Canada. But my mom works 4 days. Actually she had the choice to work either 36 or 40 hours. 36 hours meant 4 days a week. 9 hours a day. 40 hours a week meant 4 hours extra paid leave. I guess it depends on what kind of work your doing.

Yes, you can find some jobs like that...but you aren't really considered full time. I should have clarified a bit... a four day work week would mean you are working 10 hours a day (for 4 days) instead of 8 hours for 5. Then you get a decent amount of time to spend at home, having a life...(and raising your kids:))

Yes, you can find some jobs like that...but you aren't really considered full time. I should have clarified a bit... a four day work week would mean you are working 10 hours a day (for 4 days) instead of 8 hours for 5. Then you get a decent amount of time to spend at home, having a life...(and raising your kids:))
And for what kind of jobs do you want this 4 day work week?
And what do you mean by: some jobs like that?

...because they WANT to, or DON'T want to??
Because their unemployment rate went up...

I don't just mean the U.S here...we do it in Canada too, but I won't speak for Europe. Here's what I mean:

We define ourselves by our jobs...a measure of our happiness is whether we feel fulfilled by our careers, and we work too much! We get into crazy debt because we want what the Joneses have, and we figure we'll rest when we retire...meanwhile our children raise themselves and we work ourselves until we topple over from massive heartattacks.

I call for a 4 day work week!
i dont see how a 4 day work week is going to change that. we'll still have the same urge to work ourselves into the grave. we'll just get more overtime

i dont see how a 4 day work week is going to change that. we'll still have the same urge to work ourselves into the grave. we'll just get more overtime
Well, it wouldn't be of much use unless you cut back on the hours as well.

And for what kind of jobs do you want this 4 day work week?
And what do you mean by: some jobs like that?

Jobs that will LET you work less hours... a lot of jobs are either full time, no exceptions, or extremely part time. As for what kinds of jobs should have the 4 day work week... all of them... you rotate with other people the days you have off so all shifts are covered.

Jobs that will LET you work less hours... a lot of jobs are either full time, no exceptions, or extremely part time. As for what kinds of jobs should have the 4 day work week... all of them... you rotate with other people the days you have off so all shifts are covered.
I don't think that will work for all jobs. My father is a dock worker in Hamburg.
Ships have scheduels. So work days of 10 to 12 hours a day. 5 to 7 days a week are pretty common.

The American dream is a lie, like the Matrix, actually. In fact, I'd say the Matrix could be seen as symbolizing it's pacifying ability in the face of exploitation.

I agree, although we should make workdays 10 hours. It still adds up to forty hours, but gives one an extra day to sleep in.

One word: Scarface.

There is a discussion in France and Germany about prolonging and not shortening the work hours.
The mandatory 35-hour-week HAS NOT DECREASED UNEMPLOYMENT. The 35-hour-work-week which was established in some sectors of the German economy was not succesfull either. The unions have now agreed for some changes (Siemens, DaimlerChrysler) to increase the working hours to 40 hours per week by remaining the same pay as before (with the 35-week-hour).
That is increasing the competitivness of the German economy, secures jobs, enshures competetivness on the international market, may lead to more exports, more production and due to that - maybe - even more jobs.

The assumption that a reduction of working hours leads to more jobs follows a wrong assumption: that there is only a limitted number of work that must be divided between the people. That is a socialist assumption and it is of course false. Supply and demand is the key. If the price of labour is high the result of course is that demand drops. The result is unemployment. The high cost of work is a problem. High taxes, high social security payments and low working hours which were established in the 1980s and 1990s - without cuting the wagues by the way - have made work to expansive.
One solution to that can be the increase of working hours in some sectors (in which they are currently low). The other option - to cut wagues is not going to be accepted. And seriously: some people may want to work 10% less - but if that would mean 10% less pay they wouldn´t do that.

I don't think that will work for all . My father is a dock worker in Hamburg.
Ships have scheduels. So work days of 10 to 12 hours a day. 5 to 7 days a week are pretty common.

Well: For people who are self-employed there are no time limits as a matter of fact.
But for employed people (like workers) the EU - which sticks its nose in anything) has limitted the work time to 48 hours as maximum in a week.
That has been implemented into the national law: in Germany: maximum of 10 hours a day and on average over 6 months 48 hours per week (as demanded by the EU - before the EU meddled in it was 50 hours).
Well: I don´t care if someone is working more but for employed people that is actually illegal due to european law.

Well: For people who are self-employed there are no time limits as a matter of fact.
But for employed people (like workers) the EU - which sticks its nose in anything) has limitted the work time to 48 hours as maximum in a week.
That has been implemented into the national law: in Germany: maximum of 10 hours a day and on average over 6 months 48 hours per week (as demanded by the EU - before the EU meddled in it was 50 hours).
Well: I don´t care if someone is working more but for employed people that is actually illegal due to european law.

I'd heard about the 48 hour max work week...but what can the gov't actually do if someone works overtime? What is the majority view on this restriction....positive or negative?

Well: For people who are self-employed there are no time limits as a matter of fact.
But for employed people (like workers) the EU - which sticks its nose in anything) has limitted the work time to 48 hours as maximum in a week.
That has been implemented into the national law: in Germany: maximum of 10 hours a day and on average over 6 months 48 hours per week (as demanded by the EU - before the EU meddled in it was 50 hours).
Well: I don´t care if someone is working more but for employed people that is actually illegal due to european law.
In the US, there is a forty hour workweek, but if you are required to work overtime, you are paid what we call time and a half (or increasing the hourly wages by 50%). They won't allow that in Europe?

That is increasing the competitivness of the German economy, secures jobs, enshures competetivness on the international market, may lead to more exports, more production and due to that - maybe - even more jobs.

Thats what they are hoping for. It's not a fact.

In the US, there is a forty hour workweek, but if you are required to work overtime, you are paid what we call time and a half (or increasing the hourly wages by 50%). They won't allow that in Europe?
Of course people in Europe also work overtime.

Well: For people who are self-employed there are no time limits as a matter of fact.
But for employed people (like workers) the EU - which sticks its nose in anything) has limitted the work time to 48 hours as maximum in a week.
That has been implemented into the national law: in Germany: maximum of 10 hours a day and on average over 6 months 48 hours per week (as demanded by the EU - before the EU meddled in it was 50 hours).
Well: I don´t care if someone is working more but for employed people that is actually illegal due to european law.
No it's not illegal. Or they would have to arrest 2/3 of the population. Which they aren't. Although they are trying to reduce overtime as much as possible.

Thats why there economys are going to fall and Americas will prevail.

The American dream is a lie, like the Matrix, actually. In fact, I'd say the Matrix could be seen as symbolizing it's pacifying ability in the face of exploitation.

Liberty is a lie? Because that's what the American dream really is, not some artificial material definition.

The American dream is: you get to decide what your dream is. If you're not living it, perhaps you should re-define your dream.

Of course people in Europe also work overtime.
I meant if anyone in Europe worked more than 48 hours a week.

I meant if anyone in Europe worked more than 48 hours a week.

Shure. If you are self-employed there are no restrictions. Lawyers, business man - even many politicans - although they are of course all lazy - that´s the stereotype - often work much more. I know a young boss of a monthly magazine who used to work about 16 hours every day - he reduced it by now a bit - so he is now probably below 80 hours.
Extreme - yes, but it exists.
Many people I know only laugh about this 40 hour week since they are already working much more. However: I can´t give you the numbers. The average work time is however lower than in the US.


I´m not aware how the law is exactly in the US.
German laws speaks about a standard 8 hour work day for workers and a 40 hour work week in general. However: this can be expanded to 10 hours a day. However: within a period of six months that shall not exceed on average 48 in a week.

But if noone controlls it - so what????
Is just how you officially have to declare it.

They controll that by bus drivers or truck drivers actually - which is justified after all due to security reasons.
They are actually exceptions to that limit - e.g. hospitals and others.

Regarding overtime pay: People in Germany are legally entitled to get the same pay for overtime hours than for usual working hours - not to more.
However: the unions are more important: so usual there are contracts which include overtime benefits.

Shure. If you are self-employed there are no restrictions. Lawyers, business man - even many politicans - although they are of course all lazy - that´s the stereotype - often work much more. I know a young boss of a monthly magazine who used to work about 16 hours every day - he reduced it by now a bit - so he is now probably below 80 hours.
Extreme - yes, but it exists.
Many people I know only laugh about this 40 hour week since they are already working much more. However: I can´t give you the numbers. The average work time is however lower than in the US.


I´m not aware how the law is exactly in the US.
German laws speaks about a standard 8 hour work day for workers and a 40 hour work week in general. However: this can be expanded to 10 hours a day. However: within a period of six months that shall not exceed on average 48 in a week.

But if noone controlls it - so what????
Is just how you officially have to declare it.

They controll that by bus drivers or truck drivers actually - which is justified after all due to security reasons.
They are actually exceptions to that limit - e.g. hospitals and others.

Regarding overtime pay: People in Germany are legally entitled to get the same pay for overtime hours than for usual working hours - not to more.
However: the unions are more important: so usual there are contracts which include overtime benefits.
Americans, on average, work longer because we have a significant population of utter workaholics. Sad but true.
BTW, US law states no more than 40 hours a week can be worked, and anything over is overtime. Of course, there are no restrictions on the self employed, other than the fact that they are entitled to special retirement plans.

No it's not illegal. Or they would have to arrest 2/3 of the population. Which they aren't. Although they are trying to reduce overtime as much as possible.

You are mixing to things up: illegal and criminal. It is illegal to park a car on a place where that is not allowed - but it isn´t criminal and you don´t get arrested for that. If some of those people come however they put a ticket on your car.

So: If a company acts in violation of ArbZG it gets a fine if it is caught.

The law does only apply for people who are employed.
Furthernmore the law does not apply to employees
- in leading employees in the private sector as well as doctors in leading positions
- employees in leading postitions in the publiv sector as well as those deciding about recruiting staff
- people who live together with persons they care for, they educate, the guide
- e.g.

"But you had the American Dream, that so "Go, do what you will! You there, what do you want to do?" "I...I want to put babies on spikes." ".....Go then! It's your American Dream, go to it!" "Hi, I'm Crazy Eddy, I put babies on spikes! <whoompa ehoompa-pfhoo>"



GOD, I love that man :p

Americans, on average, work longer because we have a significant population of utter workaholics. Sad but true.
BTW, US law states no more than 40 hours a week can be worked, and anything over is overtime. Of course, there are no restrictions on the self employed, other than the fact that they are entitled to special retirement plans.
There is even a limit for self-employed: The day only got 24 hours and the week 168, hehehe.

Well: seriously. In Germany the law doesn´t definate overtime. That is a matter between employer and employees to decide. Due to the strong unions it is actually a matter between the unions and the organisation of employers. It depends between the tarif agreement for the sector. For some they have agreed to a 35-hour week, others an 38-hour-week, others 40-hours and (short time ago in the public sector) 42- hours.
There are sectors with a more flexible agreement allowing everything between 35-40 hours.
What is considered overtime depends on the contract.
However - as mentioned there is a maximum barrier for working hours for workers - and that´s - with some exception - 48 hours per week (on average over 6 month).
This is actually a limit set out by the European Union and applies to all members.

Does the US has any limit for overtime though or could there be aside the 40 hours 40 hours overtime in theory????

Well: The requirement to pay 50% more for the overtime hours seems to be an economic instrument to keep overtime hours not too high.
And since the US has a flexible labour market (hire and fire) it is certainly much more easier to react flexible to market developments. That is not the case in Germany or France for example. However: a flexible working time may be an option to counter this negativ effect of the high protection of dismissals.

In France by the way they still have the 35-hour-week which was introduced by the Socialist prime minister Lionel Jospin in 1997. He called himself the most left-wing in Europe and didn´t even made it in the second round of the presidential election in 2002 - that was in the end decided between conservative Chirac and the extrem-right (Front National) under Jean Marie Le Pen. The left had to support Chirac - what an irony of history, hehehe.

Well: Since 2002 the Conservatives are in power in the parliament too and there is a conservative prime minister. This government is now considering to repeal that law. I would welcome if France would take another step away from overregualtion and socialism. The have already taken some steps (privatisation, retirement reform, health care, e.g.). Not very popular, but much of the welfare can´t be financed anymore. Declining birth rates - rising number of pensioners, more demand of health care - those things can´t all be laid upon the workers as a burden. A reform of social security - suggesting more privatisation is discussed, for example for the German Health sector.

Americans are also the most productive in the world and they work longer hours than any one else.
So, of course, they tend to be consumerists than the rest of the world and more wasteful. After all they earned it.
The achievement of the American dream all depends on how hard and how long you work at it.
Arnold Swarzchneggar worked at long and hard the minute he stepped foot on American soil. A lot of immigrant hispanics and their children have sitting around collecting American welfare while condemning America. Those people have yet to experience the American dream.
That is why many hispanics in America reject nostalgia for the "home country".
And they are the ones who are now making, getting second homes, owning at least 2 cars and, in California at least, running for public office and winning.
And these people reflect the majority of Americans in a nation where the majority (60-70%) change jobs every year and where people are always changing residences just to restart just for the heck of it.
This also contributes to American prosperity.


The more procuctive you are, the more likely you are to achieve the american dream.

There is even a limit for self-employed: The day only got 24 hours and the week 168, hehehe.

Well: seriously. In Germany the law doesn´t definate overtime. That is a matter between employer and employees to decide. Due to the strong unions it is actually a matter between the unions and the organisation of employers. It depends between the tarif agreement for the sector. For some they have agreed to a 35-hour week, others an 38-hour-week, others 40-hours and (short time ago in the public sector) 42- hours.
There are sectors with a more flexible agreement allowing everything between 35-40 hours.
What is considered overtime depends on the contract.
However - as mentioned there is a maximum barrier for working hours for workers - and that´s - with some exception - 48 hours per week (on average over 6 month).
This is actually a limit set out by the European Union and applies to all members.

Does the US has any limit for overtime though or could there be aside the 40 hours 40 hours overtime in theory????

Well: The requirement to pay 50% more for the overtime hours seems to be an economic instrument to keep overtime hours not too high.
And since the US has a flexible labour market (hire and fire) it is certainly much more easier to react flexible to market developments. That is not the case in Germany or France for example. However: a flexible working time may be an option to counter this negativ effect of the high protection of dismissals.

In France by the way they still have the 35-hour-week which was introduced by the Socialist prime minister Lionel Jospin in 1997. He called himself the most left-wing in Europe and didn´t even made it in the second round of the presidential election in 2002 - that was in the end decided between conservative Chirac and the extrem-right (Front National) under Jean Marie Le Pen. The left had to support Chirac - what an irony of history, hehehe.

Well: Since 2002 the Conservatives are in power in the parliament too and there is a conservative prime minister. This government is now considering to repeal that law. I would welcome if France would take another step away from overregualtion and socialism. The have already taken some steps (privatisation, retirement reform, health care, e.g.). Not very popular, but much of the welfare can´t be financed anymore. Declining birth rates - rising number of pensioners, more demand of health care - those things can´t all be laid upon the workers as a burden. A reform of social security - suggesting more privatisation is discussed, for example for the German Health sector.

The states do have and enforce overtime laws. The federal overtime law is a lot looser than what the states have.

There is even a limit for self-employed: The day only got 24 hours and the week 168, hehehe.

Well: seriously. In Germany the law doesn´t definate overtime. That is a matter between employer and employees to decide. Due to the strong unions it is actually a matter between the unions and the organisation of employers. It depends between the tarif agreement for the sector. For some they have agreed to a 35-hour week, others an 38-hour-week, others 40-hours and (short time ago in the public sector) 42- hours.
There are sectors with a more flexible agreement allowing everything between 35-40 hours.
What is considered overtime depends on the contract.
However - as mentioned there is a maximum barrier for working hours for workers - and that´s - with some exception - 48 hours per week (on average over 6 month).
This is actually a limit set out by the European Union and applies to all members.

Does the US has any limit for overtime though or could there be aside the 40 hours 40 hours overtime in theory????

Well: The requirement to pay 50% more for the overtime hours seems to be an economic instrument to keep overtime hours not too high.
And since the US has a flexible labour market (hire and fire) it is certainly much more easier to react flexible to market developments. That is not the case in Germany or France for example. However: a flexible working time may be an option to counter this negativ effect of the high protection of dismissals.

In France by the way they still have the 35-hour-week which was introduced by the Socialist prime minister Lionel Jospin in 1997. He called himself the most left-wing in Europe and didn´t even made it in the second round of the presidential election in 2002 - that was in the end decided between conservative Chirac and the extrem-right (Front National) under Jean Marie Le Pen. The left had to support Chirac - what an irony of history, hehehe.

Well: Since 2002 the Conservatives are in power in the parliament too and there is a conservative prime minister. This government is now considering to repeal that law. I would welcome if France would take another step away from overregualtion and socialism. The have already taken some steps (privatisation, retirement reform, health care, e.g.). Not very popular, but much of the welfare can´t be financed anymore. Declining birth rates - rising number of pensioners, more demand of health care - those things can´t all be laid upon the workers as a burden. A reform of social security - suggesting more privatisation is discussed, for example for the German Health sector.
They need to do a lot better than that if France hopes to avoid economic collapse in thirty years. They have great assets in Renault and Air France. The government would benefit greatly from even a partial privatization. They also need to privatize key sectors in order to make them competitive with the real world. However, going from a socialist nation to a market-based one overnight will cause massive turmoil, and while I advocate that they privatize a lot, I will not pretend that I know specifically how to go about privatization and deregulation.

There is also much enterprenerialism (spelling) in America. More so than in other nations. Though most of these businesses end up failing before the end of the first year, they contribute greatly to the american economy.

They need to do a lot better than that if France hopes to avoid economic collapse in thirty years. They have great assets in Renault and Air France. The government would benefit greatly from even a partial privatization. They also need to privatize key sectors in order to make them competitive with the real world. However, going from a socialist nation to a market-based one overnight will cause massive turmoil, and while I advocate that they privatize a lot, I will not pretend that I know specifically how to go about privatization and deregulation.
.
Germany did some privatisation in the 1990s. The biggest one was the privatisation of the Postal services (Posts, Telecom (telephone sector), Post bank).
Put pretty much money in the pockets of the state. It was actually a step by step privatisation, mainly done from 1994-98. IN 1998 the monopoly of the telephone company Telecom ended. Some of the last steps regarding Telecom were done already by the Left-wing government we have since 1998. One big gain was the sell of the UMTS licenses in 2000 with almost reached an astronomical sum of several ten billions. However: an one time effect without any structural reform unfortunately.
The EU is actually demanding privatisation and deregulations in many sectors since it has the responsibility to enshure a "Common Market in the EU"

Another sector for privatisation of could be national rail.
Germany already step by step sells share it still holds - like on Lufthansa or Telecom or others to get money in.
France is - since a long time actually - charging people for the use of the motorways. Switzerland has the "vignette" since a long time and only a few years ago Austria followed. Germany may follow one day as well.
There is already a charge for trucks.

An the proposal for the health insurance reform suggests that the present mixture of an mandatory insurance for workers in the private sector below a certain income (which pay a percentage of their income to that) and the voluntary for the rest should be replaced with a mandatory insurance talking the same premium from everybody (but children for free - as currently).
This is actually the Swiss modell. People with low income can claim a tax reduction or assistance by the state to pay the premium.
That would cut costs of work - which is a big burden on it, since currently the social security is mainly paid due to additional duties on the salary which raise the cost of it by more than 40% of the income even before tax.
The difference between gross and net is just to huge. And the fact that the burden of financing mainly lays on employed labours makes that to expansive causing a vicious cycly of destruction of jobs due the high duties (for social security) and higher social duties due to the rise of unemployment.
Cuts in the social sector (like the reform in the unemployment support - which is the biggest cut in a social transfer in post-war German history) and structural reforms (garanteeing a minimum standard instead of the same standard of living - allowing people to work while receiving welfare (without cutting it) - a major step against the black labour market and for legal employment (is going to be implemented in 2005). The deregulation of the low-income sector (400 Euro-law) was another , as well of other discussions (deregulation of dismissal laws, more flexibility regarding working time) which already led to the increase of working time in some companies without a pay rise.

And of course structural reforms in the health insurance.
It is of course difficult with a left-wing government. But even they realize partly that reforms are necessary and have passed more reforms than - quite honestly - everybody would have expected two years ago.
That however is also a sign how deep the crisis is that even they don´t see an alternative to those deep cuts.

Regarding Health care: in that field the government is actually moving in the wrong direction: Concept of Citizen insurance. That would only mean that all incomes should be taxed the same way for it. That would only create new burocracy and a new burden for bussinesses, would be a punitive tax for savings (because it would be an additional tax on interests) and would counterclaim a policy which encourages private savings due to the fact that the public pension system can not enshure a life-standard garanteeing pension anymore.

However: They don´t have the majortiy to pass this concept because the second chamber is controlled by the opposition with a huge majority.
Currently it looks good for regime change by the way in 2006. However: we´ll see. A conservative-liberal government would even push more for reforms - and it would have the majority in both chambers. That would be the time for real market economic reforms. Hui, the left would going to cry - but after all _ they began it and they have therefore already torn down many dogmas of it. Actually the opposition can wait till 2006 pushing the goverment to continue the reforms and doing much of the unpopular work in advance. And that they my continue and take in the harvest.
The only thing which could stop them is actually a sudden economic boom in Europe and Germany - or another flood or war in ..... .
Hopefully that is not going to happen. Then you can expect regime change in Germany.

Well: Good night.