NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

eh...why do peopel keep bringing this up? It never goes anywhere.

I'm a lesbian, feels natural to me.

I know someone who thinks that way. Personally I think it isn't natural either just based off that reasoning though. If someone really pisses me off I just say its a sin against God lol

Could you be a bit more specific? By natural, do you mean do I think it's normal and acceptable, or do you mean do I think it's something inherent in a human being from birth?

eh...why do peopel keep bringing this up? It never goes anywhere.

Since when do any debates go anywhere? It's just people saying there opinions back and forth

Could you be a bit more specific? By natural, do you mean do I think it's normal and acceptable, or do you mean do I think it's something inherent in a human being from birth?

Sorry, I ment from birth

I don't think it's natural

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

At what point did you have homosexual feelings and then *choose* not to feel them? When did you look at that same-gendered person and go "Damn, he/she is hot!! I mean, no, not really - I'm not attracted to them at all"?

You've never heard of the sacraficial lamb theory? Its my favorite.

Homosexuality is natural. It occurs in nature all the time, and the species still continues. It depends on the ratio. Obviously for a species to die out because of homosexuality there would have to be a 100% homosexual populus, and thats unheard of. In humanity though, due to science, a homosexual couple can reproduce (artificial insemination, and though it still requires a male/female component, it can be done without sexual congress) and continue the species.

It would be easier it it were natural.

If doctors could see the chemical inbalance while the baby is still a fetus, it should be aborted. I'm Atheist and I loathe homosexuals.

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

BTW, science has found that gay men have brain structures that resemble those of straight women.

Could you be a bit more specific? By natural, do you mean do I think it's normal and acceptable, or do you mean do I think it's something inherent in a human being from birth?

I mean, natural, in the way that when I look at a woman I think is attractive, I react the same way a straight girl would react looking at an attractive man. I'm like, "wow," y'know that feeling you get when you see someone you like. It's that simple in me, it's instictual and natural, in those biological ways to me.

Do I think I was born this way?

Most definitely. How else would this be so natural? I was attracted to girls since I was a kid, at the same time I would've started developing feelings for boys, when those darn hormones kicked in.

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

Homosexuality has been observed on numerous occasions throughout the animal kingdom - most commonly in primates. Your assertion that there is no difference in chemical makeup is just that - an assertion. Hormones and the biochemistry of the brain is not yet well enough understood for anyone to prove that either way.

Theroetically, since we have both female and male hormones in our bodies, depending on levels, wouldn't that start us thinking like the opposite sex? A heterosexual guy with a lot of estrogen at some point might find himself checking other guys out, or a woman with high testosterone levels might be eyeing other women. So the thoughts are really just by-products of high levels of one hormone or the other, right?

So people who are homosexual 100% of the time... would they find themselves having heterosexual thoughts?

OK, done blabbing. I know it probably makes no sense, it's late, and I haven't quite satisfied my caffeine addiction today. :) I was making it up as I went... I have precisely no knowledge in this field. :D

It would be easier it it were natural.

If doctors could see the chemical inbalance while the baby is still a fetus, it should be aborted. I'm Atheist and I loathe homosexuals.

You ever heard of gender-selective abortions? There illegal in India, becuase wealthy Indians will abort girls in favor of boys, since boys are perfered. I'm pro-choice and I still must ask, "How are selective abortions appropriate?" This is wrong.

how can straight people have gay children?

It would be easier it it were natural.

If doctors could see the chemical inbalance while the baby is still a fetus, it should be aborted. I'm Atheist and I loathe homosexuals.


natural or not, is it wrong?

Homosexuality is natural. It occurs in nature all the time, and the species still continues. It depends on the ratio. Obviously for a species to die out because of homosexuality there would have to be a 100% homosexual populus, and thats unheard of. In humanity though, due to science, a homosexual couple can reproduce (artificial insemination, and though it still requires a male/female component, it can be done without sexual congress) and continue the species.

I don't think you'd need a 100% homosexual ratio. People die every day, and if only... say... .01% of the population, for example, is heterosexual (which doesn't infer fertile or wanting of children); more heterosexual people would be dying than being brought in to the world.

But that's nitpicking.

how can straight people have gay children?

Reccessive Genes. Thats why we have sexuality in the first place.

I swear, I'm in High School and I know more about genetics than most of the people here.

Homosexuality has been observed on numerous occasions throughout the animal kingdom - most commonly in primates. Your assertion that there is no difference in chemical makeup is just that - an assertion. Hormones and the biochemistry of the brain is not yet well enough understood for anyone to prove that either way.

Although they have shown in sheep (I believe) that hormonal differences in utero may contribute.

natural or not, is it wrong?

If it's natural... how can it be wrong?

If it's unnatural... again, how can it be wrong? Just because something isn't exactly as nature crafted it makes it a demon? Guess what... you're using a computer made from elements that are NOTHING like how nature designed them. Blasphemer.

Reccessive Genes. Thats why we have sexuality in the first place.

I swear, I'm in High School and I know more about genetics than most of the people here.

There are also very few scientists who believe it to be purely genetic. Hormone differences can also cause a difference. And certain events in early childhood *might* make a difference, although I don't think they've done any studies that have shown anything conclusive on that.

Reccessive Genes. Thats why we have sexuality in the first place.

I swear, I'm in High School and I know more about genetics than most of the people here.

okay smart one did you no that reccessive genes can die off after two to three generations. families with no gay history or none recently would eliminate the "gay" gene

umm...hey I don't know if any of you get this. But there are animals in the world that are homosexual. In fact, scientists are studying homosexual goats to study their brain chemical and whatever sciencey stuff they do to find out....well...more about homosexuality.

It is for some people. If you are born you are natural.

How can something that comes from reproduction be unnatural?

I think becoming gay is due to your environment. Your environment shapes who you are as a person. So why can it not also determine your sexuality?

okay smart one did you no that reccessive genes can die off after two to three generations. families with no gay history or none recently would eliminate the "gay" gene

having 5 fingers on one hand is recessive.

having 5 fingers on one hand is recessive.
I cry tears for humanity

okay smart one did you no that reccessive genes can die off after two to three generations. families with no gay history or none recently would eliminate the "gay" gene

Wrong. Recessive genes might "die out" if they are harmful. However, because they are recessive, lots of people can pass them on and never feel the effects. If there is a single "gay" gene, which very few people have suggested in the first place, it would not necessarily be gone after many, many generations - because it is not harmful and is recessive.

However, it is extremely unlikely that there is a single "gay" gene. It is more likely that it is a number of genes, along with hormones of the mother, etc.

I personally dont believe genes have anything to do with it, but that's my opinion... (and you know what they say about opinions.. they are just like arseholes.. everyone has one, and they usually stink)

I have my own theory on homosexuality. (Being heterosexual you can take my theory with a grain of salt) Scientists have attempted to determine what "turn's a woman on" by studing brain wave patterns via cat scans and comparing them to a mans brain wave pattern when a man was in an obvious state of arousal. They determined what caused the same patterns in women was intimate conversation.. i.e. actually listening to the woman and making her the center of your attention. Now, who better at that than another woman?.. I know as a man, I suck at this.. at least that's what my wife tells me.

Now, as for male homosexuality... Im still working on that theory... maybe in about 20 years ;)

*streaks through thread*

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose."Homosexual" isnt a species. Therefore it cant "die out".

Some people choose it (I suppose) ... but who wants to choose to be part of a downgraded and obviously persecuted group? It is something that is built inside a person. Why do you like women? Because it is what you feel inside, not a conscious choice, that women are something you want to be with. There is indeed a chemical/hormonal inbalance (and other scientific rid and roll) that helps directionalise people to be homosexual.

*You cant help what sex you are ... you cant help what sex you like*

nat·u·ral ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nchr-l, nchrl)
adj.
Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
Faithfully representing nature or life.
Expected and accepted: “In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love” (Duff Cooper).
Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.

Related by blood: the natural parents of the child.
Born of unwed parents: a natural child.
Mathematics. Of or relating to positive integers, sometimes including zero.
Music.
Not sharped or flatted.
Having no sharps or flats.

Citing also the mainstream professional opinion, that homosexuality is a naturally occurring normal variant of human sexuality. End of story, case closed, quit beating a long dead horse though if you must get a degree in psychology, sociology, biology and continue from there.

*yawns*

how can straight people have gay children?
RALMAO!!! Oh my gosh, that is sooooo funny. Ahem, because that is how the cookie crumbles. How can 2 blonde parents have a brown haired child? -Sarcasm- I'm so confused.

Ever heard of (resessive) genes (yes, there are links to genes in homosexuality)? Ever heard of environmental factors? Ever heard of rebellion (cos not everyone wants to be exactly what parents/society/religion wants - this is also an environmental factor)? Ever heard of BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WANT TO BE GAY? ... Etc.

Heh, homosexuality has been in human culture since the ancient greeks or even before. Other species, such as dolphins and monkies to name a few, engage in homosexual activities, and dolphins are the only other species besides humans that have sex for plesure. For a species to mate with another sex to reproduce offspring is neccissary because a species is only successful when it has produced offspring. But homosexuality or bisexuality can occour too, and it is natrual.

okay smart one did you no that reccessive genes can die off after two to three generations. families with no gay history or none recently would eliminate the "gay" geneIt ... CAN die off ... doesnt mean it WILL. I have a recessive heart disease gene. For a very rare disease. It hadnt popped up for about 4 generations ... then *poof* my mother got it and died. And my 8 year old cousin. Ressive doesnt mean "will go away in a few years".

It is completely natural. Like blue eyes or dark skin. Deal with it.

Nope. Sorry, your all wrong. The correct answer is:

Who the fu<k cares? Seriously whether it's natural or not, it's not gunna make a difference. Homosexuals will still be homosexuals. Hetrosexuals will still be hetrosexuals. No ones gunna look at this forum and go:
"HOLY SHIT! He's right, it IS unnatural! Time for me to leave bubba and get some shaven haven!" ect.
I don't have a problem with gays, I'm quite good friends with a few, but I don't bother pondering whether it's "natural" or not. What's the point? All this money is being spent on researching why homosexuals are homosexuals when it's pointless... if it's found to be natural what will it accomplish? If it's found to be genetic what will it accomplish? If it's found that it's due to what type of shoe's you wear WHAT WILL IT ACCOMPLISH?

Nothing. Stop pondering this question and do something productive for fu<ks sake!

you don't wake up one day thinkning, "ya know what? I'm gonna start liking girls today." It just happens. And why do people kill themselves because of the constant torment they get from being gay?

you don't wake up one day thinkning, "ya know what? I'm gonna start liking girls today." It just happens. And why do people kill themselves because of the constant torment they get from being gay?

Actually, torment isn't the whole thing. People, esp. in religious environments, are raised to believe homosexuality is a mortal sin or shameful, abnormal etc., etc. Even without direct torment, self-esteem takes a huge hit and life don't look so rosey. With that said and out ofthe way, those who think it's some choice are either delusional or daggum ignorant.

It is completly unnatural. It has no biological sense.

There is nothing unnatural about being gay. Just as there is nothing unnatural about having Downs Syndrome. I hate to compare the two, but they can be both brought about by genetics. The Lord God would not create any thing that He did not love and cherish. Though being gay could be a natural thing, strictly from people’s genes, it can also be brought about from extreme trauma. Suppose a young girl is molested my her father or her uncle at a young age, that girl when she grows up will have some sexual identity dysfunction; she would find herself interested to women because of the horrible events that happened to her when she was young. Homosexuality has been with the western world since before the time of the ancient Greeks. In their mythology Zeus had a young boy as his cupbearer, Ganymede. So, who cares what people do to each other, as long as it doesn’t affect me.

It is completly unnatural. It has no biological sense.

Same for your appendix.

*shrug*

Same for your appendix.

*shrug*

And???? I don´t have that anymore, anyway.

one of the main flaws in the 'homosexuality is natural' argument is that for it to be natural it would need to be a genetic thing not something you yourself can change.

Im not suggesting that you can just decide 'oh im going to be straight today', but there is a degree of choice in it - there are several people i know that were homosexual and now are not.

Its a phsyciatric problem not a genetic condition. Just because it occurs in animals does not mean it is natural.

I don´t have that anymore, anyway.

Now that is unnatural.

Homosexuality could be a natural mechanism that keeps a certain species from becoming over-populated.

I don't think it's a choice you can make. However, you can, atleast subcontiones, choice to deny it. That would mean that straight people forces themself to believe they are gay and gay people who forces themselfs to believe they are straight. But that's not a choice about the sexuality, it just is.

So, genetic, hormonic or whatever, i still say it's natural.

I am a homosexual and have been for all my life. I am 32 and to this date I am unaware of EVER making a concious decision to become a homosexual. As far as i am aware, I have always been attracted to the same gender.

My choices make no difference to anyone else. Just because i am gay, it doesn't mean that the world is going to end. look at it this way... If i am going for men, then there are more beautiful women out there for you 'straight' guys.

I was cornered on a bus once by an elderly woman that I had never met before. She obviously knew me however, because she started shouting at me about how 'I was a danger to children!!!' and that 'I was an insult to god!!'
These statements REALLY offended me. The remark about being a danger to children was hurtful enough, but to suggest that I am not one of gods children was unbelievably insensitive of her.

If I had a choice and could change from homosexual to heterosexual, I would do so simply because i cannot abide this unnecessary hatred which is directed at me and people like me. However, it is not homosexuals who tend to go to jail for sexual crimes. It is the straight people!!

Personally, i believe that (if god exists) God created me just like he created everyone. He created homosexuality for whatever reason. Perhaps it was to keep the ever increasing population down. Perhaps it was so that the world could have decent music and sensible colour co-ordinated living rooms. I also believe that wherever it says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong, is more than likely an edit made by some homophobic cleric. It is allegedly proven that the church throughout history has edited the bible to its own design. (Mary Magdallene being one example)

I don't expect to change anybodys views by making my opinion known. I think most people are too stubborn to accept that gays and lesbians DO have a place in society. Perhaps, however, people who HATE homosexuals could change their views enough to reduce the hatred to toleration. That way, all the children who are currently in schools or homes around the world and having doubts about their sexuality, they can at least feel as though they are not approaching a lifetime of hatred, disrespect and segregation.

Now that is unnatural.

Not unnatural, but a medical neccessity. You don´t want your stomach broken, do you?? Well: I didn´t.


But homosexuality is unnatural. It is falsely directed sexuality.
It has no biological sense at all.

one of the main flaws in the 'homosexuality is natural' argument is that for it to be natural it would need to be a genetic thing not something you yourself can change.

Im not suggesting that you can just decide 'oh im going to be straight today', but there is a degree of choice in it - there are several people i know that were homosexual and now are not.

Its a phsyciatric problem not a genetic condition. Just because it occurs in animals does not mean it is natural.


I think you need to accept that some people experiment with sex. Hoovers, Pool pumps, animals, bottles, jam jars, etc... Just because someone has been with the same gender a couple of times, does NOT mean they are homosexual. It simply means they are experimenting. I suggest to you that these 'friends' who were gay but are not now... They probably were never gay in the first place OR (and more likely) they are trying to hide their true feelings due to the immense amount of negativity that homosexuals recieve from society in general.

You are wise to say that you are aware that people can not 'just decide', however I would like to add that anyone who is TRULY gay has NO CHOICE other than celibacy (which happens to be the option i have taken.)

A psychiatric problem? Now THAT is just plain insulting.

If you consider that the only society that has had a real issue with it, is the one we live in...

and that the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Japanese and others, actually proliferated it...

It seems to make sense that it may be much more natural that todays Puritan founded Christian America would think it is...

Furthermore it also seems as though in the animal kingdom, that mnay different species of animals have homosexual tendencies.
While not every animal species portrays this, those that do, tend to do so..in phases.

Meaning...?

Gay animals are gay in phases.

Humans usually, but not always exclusively are the only animals that portray homosexual tendecies, in the long term.
At least, this is what scientists are now starting to believe.

Science has proven that homosexuality among wild animals occurs in order to decrease surplus populations. Therefore, in the wild, this IS a natural thing.

Now, take a look at the huge boom in human population in the past 100 years or so. The fact that homosexuality wasn't an issue until up to the past 30 years seems to dictate that this too is natural for humans. After all, we're all part of the animal kingdom too, whether some of us want to believe that or not.

So, it IS natural.

No: it isn´t natural.
That was by the way also the dominant opinion of psychologists and psychiatrist up until the 1970s. Then the left-wingers took over (1968s) and changed the opinion in order to destroy the traditional values of society.
Up until 30 years it was a crime in many countries and illegal. And there was no doubt about it.
But since the 1960s and 70s a moral decline has begun in many western nations. That´s the reason why this is an issue today.

one of the main flaws in the 'homosexuality is natural' argument is that for it to be natural it would need to be a genetic thing not something you yourself can change.

Im not suggesting that you can just decide 'oh im going to be straight today', but there is a degree of choice in it - there are several people i know that were homosexual and now are not.
That's probably because they actually are bisexual. It's people who are polar, not nature. If more people - "homosexual" as well as "heterosexual" - finally understood that, nobody in their right mind would even care to comment on stupid polls like this one.

To anyone who thinks that not-heterosexuality is wrong, for that is the entire issue here: Get your priorities right. There are far worse things threatening to exterminate humanity - pollution for instance - than loving and mentally stable couples wanting the same legal rights as heterosexual nut cases, who beat their partners and torture their kids to insanity, and children of their own by insemination or adoption.

No: it isn´t natural.
That was by the way also the dominant opinion of psychologists and psychiatrist up until the 1970s. Then the left-wingers took over (1968s) and changed the opinion in order to destroy the traditional values of society.
Up until 30 years it was a crime in many countries and illegal. And there was no doubt about it.
But since the 1960s and 70s a moral decline has begun in many western nations. That´s the reason why this is an issue today.

Actually, what happened was 'psychology' shrugged off its Judeo-Christian influences, as has other fields of study.

It has no biological sense at all. Read the rest of the thread - It acts to reduce overpopulation (biological fastner), and is related to hormone balances within the human brain (based in biology). Ignorance of scientific breakthroughs does not a valid argument make.

Which brings me to the next pleasant piece of willful ignorance:

No: it isn´t natural.
That was by the way also the dominant opinion of psychologists and psychiatrist up until the 1970s. Then the left-wingers took over (1968s) and changed the opinion in order to destroy the traditional values of society.
Up until 30 years it was a crime in many countries and illegal. And there was no doubt about it.
But since the 1960s and 70s a moral decline has begun in many western nations. That´s the reason why this is an issue today.

The 'traditional values of society' have been, in the majority, IN FAVOUR of gays - The empires of Greece, Rome, Japan.... and the list goes on... not only supported gays, but used gay relationships to cement society together. Marrying inter-racially or voting if you were a woman was *also* a crime in many countries in the recent past - guess what? Society progresses. If you don't like change, you should really move out of the high-population-density areas, because that's were change will happen fastest. As for the field of psychiatry... well, saying that it 'changed' is rather foolish... what it did was find *new evidence* to *counter* old, outdated, views. Ie, it has moved forward. And now you want it to move backward because you disagree with the 'left-wingers'? Wow, how very intelligent. I applaude your abilty to shut off all rational thought.

First, what is natural is a matter of definition.

Second, homosexual are very capable of having children (they just might not enjoy making them as much as heterosexuals do).

Third, it's natural to have sex for recreation. Both animals and humans do that

Fourth, homosexual behaviour also exists among animals

Fifth, natural and unatural does not imply morally/ethically right and wrong.

So just let the matter go. If you don't like homosexual behaviour, try finding some arguments based on how homosexual behaviour affects the society in a negative way. If you can't find that, just admit to yourself that you are letting your emotions controlling your sound judgement.

(Or you can base your oppinion uppon religion, if that's your thing.)

...

* Reads thread.

...

* Laughs manically.

...

* Plots to create test for gene in people which makes them actually give a toss about what your sexuality is and more importantly " why " ... so we can then abort THEM. And finally get some sleep. And possibly use forums to discuss important things. Like what brand of soft drink is better.

:rolleyes: + ;)

"Read the rest of the thread - It acts to reduce overpopulation (biological fastner), and is related to hormone balances within the human brain (based in biology)."
I only know that this theory is very disputed. By the way: If it would be a hormone thing it may be possible to cure homosexuality.

By the way: Your insults are showing the qualitiy of your arguments.

I rather stick to Sigmund Freund in that respect who saw homosexuality caused by a trauma in childhood.

Probably it is going to be possible to help this unfortunate people to become heterosexual and by doing so become accepted members of society.

Ah, so now we move from " Gays Are Bad " to " Gays Are Sick ".

Well, the quality in here has just shot up.

" Any-body not offended please follow me into the green room for brandy and coffee. Will the " White Picket Fence 1950's America, Our Delicate Sensibilities - Right Wing Conservatives - Praise be to Jesus for He is our Saviour - End Homosexuality It Is Wrong - Homosexuals Must Suffer " groups please remain here where you'll enjoy the company of each other. Meals will be served later on in the evening. Thank you. "

Ahahahahahahaha.... *wipes tear from eye*

Freud is hilarious. Have you sat down and read through his theories? (seriously, not meant as an insult).

And maybe we can 'cure' homosexuals. Hell, we used to cart them off to get pysciatric care until they went into denial about their sexuality.

It *is* possible, through hormone therapy, to radically alter someone's gender. And scientists have proven that if you inject a sample of male mice with estrogen (one of the main female hormones), a large number of them will revert to showing homosexual tendancies (ie, gay sex). A similar result occured when female mice were injected with testosterone.

Then again, I really, honestly and truly, don't see why anyone would want to 'cure' gays. It's a stupid principle... in theory we can already choose the gender, eye colour and basic physical attributes of our children through genetics. But it's immoral. Sure, we could alter our children so they all look like supermodels - then they would 'better fit into society'... but that would be, pardon the lapse into insult-ary, really damn stupid.

Why are you unable to accept people the way they are? Some men prefer men - due to their hormones and environment - some men prefer women - also due to their hormones. You shouldn't say "the majority is like this... we should alter the minority to be the same!" Well, unless you want to advocate bleaching all black people so their skin is white... so they can 'fit in' better.

Or how about hormone therapy for women, so they all share the social benefits of being male? Or hand out free breast implants, so they can all achieve the status of 'attractive' and 'fit in' better.

Homosexuality is not harmful to the individuals affected by it, so there is no reason to step in and prevent it from occuring. If society reacts badly to gays, it's society that needs to change, not the gays.

------------------
And oooh! Coffee! Can I come?

It ain't natural.

Well it OCCURS naturally.

Or maybe you missed the scores of posts that make that point?

Or maybe what you mean is "Ick... it makes me uncomfortable! Make them stop!"

who cares? whether or not homosexuality is natural is irrelevant to any discussion of whether it should be accepted or not. (of course, it IS natural, because it has been documented as occuring in nature, but never mind that...)

rape is natural. murder is natural. infanticide is very natural for higher primates. so what? breast feeding is also natural, as is spoken communication, scratching at itches, and hugging. whether or not something is natural has nothing to do with whether or not we judge it to be "good."

There was a time in our evolution when pale skin and blue eyes wasn't natural ... yet, here they are ...

Amazing what nature can do.

See sig and continue the debate.

:rolleyes:

In reference to the topic title, I'd even go as far as saying that nothing is natural in this day and age.

(Note: I have not read any of the previous replies, and this could well look out place in the middle of something else)

It is completly unnatural. It has no biological sense.

Neither does walking upright ... it causes hemorrhoids.

For the link monkeys. (http://www2b.biglobe.ne.jp/~dr-ok/zjikaku.html)

:)

"Read the rest of the thread - It acts to reduce overpopulation (biological fastner), and is related to hormone balances within the human brain (based in biology)."
I only know that this theory is very disputed. By the way: If it would be a hormone thing it may be possible to cure homosexuality.

By the way: Your insults are showing the qualitiy of your arguments.

I rather stick to Sigmund Freund in that respect who saw homosexuality caused by a trauma in childhood.

Probably it is going to be possible to help this unfortunate people to become heterosexual and by doing so become accepted members of society.

lol, okay, you go right ahead and stick with Freud, even though that is one of his theories that has been conclusively disproven by research :).

just to clear something up, homosexuality COULD NOT have evolved as a means of population control, because evolution doesn't work that way. selection does not act on populations, it acts on ech individual, and selects for success in passing on genes. it CANNOT select for decreased reproductive success. period.

that said, homosexuality is not, in any of the natural cases it is observed, a hindrance or a disadvantage in passing on genes. in many cases, homosexual animals assist in the rearing of siblings, and siblings have the same genetic relationship as a parent does to its own offspring (50%)...thus an animals that successfully helps rear siblings is just as genetically productive as one that breeds on its own. granted, it doesn't get to choose a mate for favorable traits, but often there are environmental factors that help out-weight that potential gain, such as dangers in starting a new family, dangers in being a first-time breeder (like for hyenas, who very often die the first time they give birth), or limited resources like food or water.

in other cases, homosexual couples "trade off" when breeding; one of the pair will mate one season, and then the couple will help to raise that offspring, doubling its chance of reaching adulthood. the next season the pair will raise the offspring of the other partner. though each member of the pair breeds half as often, they are usually more successful in biological terms, because biology measures reproductive success by how many offspring reach breeding age themselves; just pumping out a lot of babies isn't success if most of them die before reproducing.

now, onto the hormone thing...acne is caused largely by hormones, yet no cure has been found despite decades of research and huge motivation on the part of cosmetics companies. menopause is caused entirely by hormonal singals, yet there is no "cure" for menopause (only slight aleviation of symptoms is possible). just because something is caused by hormones doesn't mean we can or will ever be able to cure it. remember, hormonal interactions are very very very tricky, and even if we could pinpoint the exact chemicals causing homosexuality we might not be able to monkey with them without throwing many other crucial systems out of whack. one hormone may have many different functions throughout the body, so drugs that act to stop or slow or accelerate that hormone can cause critical damage other places in the system.

finally, why exactly do we want to help homosexuals become "accepted members of society" rather than helping them to live healthy, happy, and independent lives, and helping society to get over itself? should we have helped civil rights activists "become accepted" by telling them to shut up and turn their skin white? should we have taugh women to "become accepted" by resigning themselves to second-class citizenship? just because a group is vocal, abbrasive, and makes "society" uncomfortable doesn't make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't mean we should focus our efforts on shutting them up. i have generally found acceptance to be over-rated anyhow, particularly when coming from American society at large.

Nope. Sorry, your all wrong. The correct answer is:

Who the fu<k cares? Seriously whether it's natural or not, it's not gunna make a difference. Homosexuals will still be homosexuals. Hetrosexuals will still be hetrosexuals. No ones gunna look at this forum and go:
"HOLY SHIT! He's right, it IS unnatural! Time for me to leave bubba and get some shaven haven!" ect.
I don't have a problem with gays, I'm quite good friends with a few, but I don't bother pondering whether it's "natural" or not. What's the point? All this money is being spent on researching why homosexuals are homosexuals when it's pointless... if it's found to be natural what will it accomplish? If it's found to be genetic what will it accomplish? If it's found that it's due to what type of shoe's you wear WHAT WILL IT ACCOMPLISH?

Nothing. Stop pondering this question and do something productive for fu<ks sake!

I'm friends with some homosexuals too. Mostly bisexuals, actually, but they lean towards homo. *shrug* Anyways.

The point of my post:
This WAS productive. This forum gave you the chance to tell everybody who took part in this (calm until you burst in) debate to screw off, and a nice product it was, from the "pissed as all hell" standpoint. Except then you neatly contradicted yourself when you told us to go do something productive, when, in fact, that's what we were doing.

I have no idea if homosexuality is "right" or "wrong", or if it is a "defect" or "mental illness", or if its "natural" or "unatural", but the only two gay leopards in real life just also happen to be cannibals also, and scientists don't know why they are, being that there is plenty of food around for them. Instead of fighting off other leopards who infringe on their territory, the two gay leopards fight them, then kill them, and then eat the leopards together.

While the scientists who did bring this up are definately not inferring that homosexuals are cannibals, they are inferring that perhaps homosexuals have a different brain than the other heterosexual leopards.

On a different note, they say gays make up 1 out of every 9 to 10 people. I guess that makes them a large populatiion and its seems a bit normal to have homosexuals then, doesn't it?

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

Who Cares ????

By the way, if humans are on earth only to procreate, what about all these people who do not get married, do not want any children or cannot have children ?

Who Cares ????

By the way, if humans are on earth only to procreate, what about all these people who do not get married, do not want any children or cannot have children ?

yeah, seriously! the way people talk, i am a waste of tissue because i don't want to breed...i suppose i should just quit my volunteer work, stop studying to help treat epilepsy, and quit paying taxes right now, because obviously i have no purpose if i'm not pumping out the kiddies.

I think it's natural and should be accepted.

Is homosexuality natural?

it depends if your gay or not.

Gay animals are gay in phases.

Humans usually, but not always exclusively are the only animals that portray homosexual tendecies, in the long term.
At least, this is what scientists are now starting to believe.

actually, bottle-nose dolphins form lifelong homosexual pairs, though they have never been observed to form lifelong heterosexual ones. bonobo chimps have lifelong lesbian relationships about 6 times as often as enduring heterosexual pairings, though you have to measure by standards other than sexual faithfulness because those guys breed like...well, like monkeys :).

Homosexuality is a disease that must be treated, otherwise the patients should be completely destroyed.

who cares? whether or not homosexuality is natural is irrelevant to any discussion of whether it should be accepted or not. (of course, it IS natural, because it has been documented as occuring in nature, but never mind that...)
rape is natural. murder is natural. infanticide is very natural for higher primates. so what? breast feeding is also natural, as is spoken communication, scratching at itches, and hugging. whether or not something is natural has nothing to do with whether or not we judge it to be "good."

Although I disagree and don´t see homosexual as natural, I agree to the second part of your statement.
We have to ask whether a certain form of behaviour is beneficiary to society. If it is very dangerous and damaging it ought to be banned, if it is neutral it can be allowed and if it is very positive it ought to be supported and protected. Homosexuality is certain not a life-style which should be encouraged and supported by society.

Homosexuality is a disease that must be treated, otherwise the patients should be completely destroyed.

care to explain why, or were you just flaming?

Although I disagree and don´t see homosexual as natural, I agree to the second part of your statement.
We have to ask whether a certain form of behaviour is beneficiary to society. If it is very dangerous and damaging it ought to be banned, if it is neutral it can be allowed and if it is very positive it ought to be supported and protected. Homosexuality is certain not a life-style which should be encouraged and supported by society.
why not? what makes it non-neutral?

why not? what makes it non-neutral?
I haven´t said that it is non-neutral, I have said that it is not very positive. Forming a family, marriage that is positive. Those instituitions deserve protection.

It is outrageous that homosexuals want to claim the benefits and the support this instituitions receive by calling for gay-marriage.

There are two genders: males and females. That easy. Scientists should work on homosexuality to discover a genetic treatment for it.

Homosexuality is a disease that must be treated, otherwise the patients should be completely destroyed.

Now now ... when your wife left you she only said it was because she decided to be gay ... she was hoping to make you feel better about your small penis.

:D

Disclaimer: I am assuming the original poster is male because no woman would ever say something so blatantly ignorant.

When you can not support your ideas; it is normal for you to make jokes. I understand it.

There are two genders: males and females. That easy. Scientists should work on homosexuality to discover a genetic treatment for it.

Only if they treat your affliction first.

Forming a family, marriage that is positive. Those instituitions deserve protection.

Tell that to the Dahmers ...


:rolleyes:

Only if they treat your affliction first.

This gives me an interesting idea ...

When you can not support your ideas; it is normal for you to make jokes. I understand it.

You're one to talk aren't you?

Homosexuality has been observed on numerous occasions throughout the animal kingdom - most commonly in primates. Your assertion that there is no difference in chemical makeup is just that - an assertion. Hormones and the biochemistry of the brain is not yet well enough understood for anyone to prove that either way.

Especially through the female side. Meaning there are more lesbian gorillas out there than gay male gorillas.

Silvafen:and dolphins are the only other species besides humans that have sex for plesure.

I don't know if anyone has corrected this yet or not, but this is a long running incorrect meme. Bonobo monkeys, for one, have sex for pleasure (i.e. they have both hetero and homosexual sex, masturbate, pull-out during 'normal' sex, and do things like oral and anal penetration), as do domesticated dogs (ever had one hump your leg?). In that vein, the males of many mammal species participate in masturbatory type behavior, which certainly has nothing to do with reproduction.

I can't imagine that, given the way a significant portion of society responds, that anyone "chooses" to be a homosexual. They just are. Certainly there are some people who have some very traumatic experiences with the opposite sex and make a conscious decision to satisfy their sexual needs with the same sex, but many homosexuals show obvious tendencies even before puberty.
There have been several studies using functional MRI and volume analysis of certain brain structures that have consistently shown differences between conventional heterosexual individuals and homosexuals. From that standpoint, I feel it is "natural," i.e. a non-harmful human variant human sexuality. There are a LOT of mutations, diseases, and variations of people that would preclude propogation of the species either by causing infertility or killing an individual before they can procreate; so that alone is not enough to label it "unnatural." If it wasn't for our advances in medical science, something as simple to correct as retrograde ejaculation (sperm travelling backwards into the bladder rather than out through the end of the penis) or a benign secretory pituitary tumor could easily prevent propogation.

Infact I appreciate gays, but not the lesbians. Because the more gay lives in a socitey, the more the 'per capita woman density' increases :) On te other hand, lesbians decreases that statistics :(

Hey, I know how to fix gays! Just stick them in a whore house for the better part of a day, and see how straight they are when they leave.

BTW, science has found that gay men have brain structures that resemble those of straight women.

More specifically, the hypothalamus size in men who report that they have sex with men tends to be smaller than in men who report that they don't have sex with men. Likewise, the hypothalamus size in women is proportionally smaller. I believe that there was no research for women who report that they have sex with women.

I can't imagine that, given the way a significant portion of society responds, that anyone "chooses" to be a homosexual. They just are. Certainly there are some people who have some very traumatic experiences with the opposite sex and make a conscious decision to satisfy their sexual needs with the same sex, but many homosexuals show obvious tendencies even before puberty.
There have been several studies using functional MRI and volume analysis of certain brain structures that have consistently shown differences between conventional heterosexual individuals and homosexuals. From that standpoint, I feel it is "natural," i.e. a non-harmful human variant human sexuality. There are a LOT of mutations, diseases, and variations of people that would preclude propogation of the species either by causing infertility or killing an individual before they can procreate; so that alone is not enough to label it "unnatural." If it wasn't for our advances in medical science, something as simple to correct as retrograde ejaculation (sperm travelling backwards into the bladder rather than out through the end of the penis) or a benign secretory pituitary tumor could easily prevent propogation.

I'd just like know how many straight people actually believe they made a decision to be straight, and not gay--and if so, why would some of them look down on folks who've decided differently?

Let's have an experiment shall we?

Take 50 gay couples and put them on an island, and take 50 hetero couples and put them on another.

Now see which group clubs each other's skulls in first fighting over something stupid like whether homosexuality is natural or not and if this is cause for killing them all.

I say its not natural. Its a mental disease, like shitzophrenia or paranoid dementia, that needs to be cured. Whether or not its genetic is irrelevant to whether its 'natural' or 'harmful', etc, thats an entirely different argument.

Why does it need to be cured?

You are all asking the wrong question here. Of course homosexuality is natural. The real question is: "is it bad?" Just because something occurs naturally doesn't make it a good thing.

some of you mentioned the sexual habits of certain animals, using them as a way to explain and excuse the lewd wrong sexual inclinations of certain ppl, mainly homosexuals.
i find this wrong. what are you trying to say by tt?
That our moral, intellectual capacity is no better than that of a monkey
are we to degrade ourselves? that we will assume thats its alright to take part in such activities since primitive, unintellectual(compared to humans) animals already take part in them.

My stand is that homosexualism is wrong.
Why? bcos it goes against the way we were created.
if it was meant to be so, then procreation would be possible in a homo relationship
if not for the influences of the media and society, would ppl grow up with orientation towards the same sex, i think not.

It is NOT natural.
not natural to any religion, not natural to cience or evolution of specie.
It goes against every kind of creed you may have.
it's a stupid form of making use of your genital forms NOT to procreate, or even worst, a form of use your... ahmm... not to leave your body residues.
Homossexually it's a marketing plan used by some governments to give to people a idea of freedom. It's a big lie. If the fuckin' television stop to bomb us with gay-related programation 24/7, sure less people would choose this bizarre way of life. Probably it would stops, after all, the gays of yesterday have no childs to keep their aidetic images alive and defend their position (whatever this position is!).
Sorry by some grammar errors, england isn't my language;

That our moral, intellectual capacity is no better than that of a monkey are we to degrade ourselves? that we will assume thats its alright to take part in such activities since primitive, unintellectual(compared to humans) animals already take part in them.

+

Why? bcos it goes against the way we were created.

=WTF?^^

There are two genders: males and females. That easy. Scientists should work on homosexuality to discover a genetic treatment for it.Erm, does the happily homosexual person get a say in whether or not they want to be "treated" for their homosexuality. Or is it simply "gays are yukky, I say they are bad - which I've decided makes what they do wrong, make the bad people stop" again?

Maybe you should be "treated" for you homophobia? Easier then telling people that they arent in love, or arent allowed to be in love with the people of their choosing, yeah?

It is NOT natural.
not natural to any religion, not natural to cience or evolution of specie.
It goes against every kind of creed you may have.
it's a stupid form of making use of your genital forms NOT to procreate, or even worst, a form of use your... ahmm... not to leave your body residues.
Homossexually it's a marketing plan used by some governments to give to people a idea of freedom. It's a big lie. If the fuckin' television stop to bomb us with gay-related programation 24/7, sure less people would choose this bizarre way of life. Probably it would stops, after all, the gays of yesterday have no childs to keep their aidetic images alive and defend their position (whatever this position is!).
Sorry by some grammar errors, england isn't my language;

OMG!!1 HOM0SEXUALITY IS A AMI5H CONSPRCY!!1

There is no proof that Being homo is inborn. There is some proof that it is acquired socially through upbrining.

So is religion. Religion is unnatural. Religion does not create babies. Therefor, religion is bad.

On a different note, are you claiming some animals are gay because they were brought up like that?

Some people choose it (I suppose) ... but who wants to choose to be part of a downgraded and obviously persecuted group? It is something that is built inside a person. Why do you like women? Because it is what you feel inside, not a conscious choice, that women are something you want to be with. There is indeed a chemical/hormonal inbalance (and other scientific rid and roll) that helps directionalise people to be homosexual.

Well, by this logic, early Christians were 'born' Christians and couldn't help it. After all who would want to live in fear of being stoned to death or fed to lions?

Well, by this logic, early Christians were 'born' Christians and couldn't help it. After all who would want to live in fear of being stoned to death or fed to lions?

Sorry, doesn't work.

Christianity = Religion = I am right = I am going to Heaven when I die.

okay smart one did you no that reccessive genes can die off after two to three generations. families with no gay history or none recently would eliminate the "gay" gene

Also...i do believe that homosexuality is a mutation in the genes. Nevertheless...if the recessive genes just die off after several generations then we all would have similar features: we all would use our right hand, have a certain type of hair line, hair color, etc.

Sorry, doesn't work.

Christianity = Religion = I am right = I am going to Heaven when I die.
wrong
Christianity=relationship with God
it is a choice,
and well, we'll find out who made the rite choice when we all die wont we

You know what,

I've had a crap evening. I've felt blue all-day, but tonight I've just felt really down. Down, down, down. Down to the point that I have about a hair-line thick B.S. tolerance tonight. And all this certainly went fuck-far over that line tonight.

I've just read through an entire thread where the homophobic try to scientifically rationalise their bigotry with concepts of genetics/I] and [I]psychology. The people because of who mean I'm 18, " in the closet " as it were, and grew up in a family and wider society where I'm afraid to " come out " because I am afraid my parents won't love me any-more or friends won't speak to me. Because they have been exposed to this thinking, that I myself might not be " genetically correct " or " don't think straight " ( for once no pun intended ;) ). Well fuck it and any person on this forum who thinks I don't have a right or reason to feel the way I do and be who I am.

One thing stopped me from the thought of crying myself to sleep tonight. And I even found it on these forums. Just look at the bloody irony right there.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343648

There is I think, still some slight justice out there. :)

wrong
Christianity=relationship with God
it is a choice,
and well, we'll find out who made the rite choice when we all die wont we

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

there is no gay gene, even if there is one it doesnt matter, it is still deviant behavior. Pedofiles can make a case for being born that way and that lifestyle is not accepted YET.

there is no gay gene, even if there is one it doesnt matter, it is still deviant behavior. Pedofiles can make a case for being born that way and that lifestyle is not accepted YET.

And do you know why?

You know what,

I've had a crap evening. I've felt blue all-day, but tonight I've just felt really down. Down, down, down. Down to the point that I have about a hair-line thick B.S. tolerance tonight. And all this certainly went fuck-far over that line tonight.

I've just had to read through a thread where the homophobic try to scientifically rationalise their bigotry with concepts of genetics and psychology. The people because of who mean I'm 18, " in the closet " as it were, and grew up in a family and wider society where I'm afraid to " come out " because I am afraid my parents won't love me any-more or friends won't speak to me. Because they have been exposed to this thinking, that I myself might not be "genetically correct" or " don't think straight " ( for once no pun intended ). Well uck it.



One thing stopped me from the thought of crying myself to sleep tonight. And I ven found it on these forums. Just look at the bloody irony right there.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343648

There is I think, still some justice out there. :)

I feel bad for you > here is a place you can get some help:

http://www.exodus-international.org/

And do you know why?

pedophilla hasnt been accepted yet becasue sex with children is still held to be harmful, but that seems to be changing.

I feel bad for you > here is a place you can get some help:

http://www.exodus-international.org/

How will that help him?

pedophilla hasnt been accepted yet becasue sex with children is still held to be harmful, but that seems to be changing.

It is? How is it changing?

How will that help him?

To get out of Homosexuality.

To get out of Homosexuality.

Yes. I know. But how will that help him?

Actually, Exodus' or one of the other prominient groups had their leaders leave because they still loved eachother after the "re-adjustment" program.


Firts off, I suggest all of you search for and read Doujin's "Homosexuality Explaine." A well written article.


Secondly, I almost refuse to take anyone who types "bcuse" and uses AIM shortcuts to explain their points.

Thirdly, I think it is pefectly natural, and I encourage all who are homosexual to keep being so. Hypocritical far-right fringe groups have no right to dictate your life. If your love is great enough, gender, sexuality, nothing matters. As long as you are together.

How will that help him?

:rolleyes:

I suspect I am supposed to " pray out the gay " or some such.

Which I suppose would be easy, really,

" Dear God, let me find the loving man who would give me the self confidence to come out, yourself or your son exempt. No, wait, I'm atheist. Why am I talking to myself ? "

"Pray to God now, and with His help, you can stop being a homosexual.
That's right, you can stop being something that has absolutely no negative effect on you apart from a few whining crybabies that moan about how it's wrong.
We think that this is a better solution than getting rid of the crybabies."

If homosexuality isn't natural, is there some mad scientist in a secret laboratory mixing it up in test tubes to inflict on... 4-11% of the population? I never knowingly met a homosexual or was exposed to homosexual imagery before my first homosexual urges, aged 11. I didn't come out until 18, despite all this imagery encouraging homosexuals the homophobes see.

The theories I tend to go with for the causes of homosexuality is that it is caused by a hormonal imbalance that affects the formation of the brain. This causes changes in the parts of the hypothalamus referred to, aswell as the density of lines in finger and hand prints and other things.
Certain mental acuities such as multi-tasking and analysis of 3D space are better handled by women and men respectively, based on statistical analysis. Though it's not limited to homosexuals, homosexuals have a higher tendency to have opposite gender mental abilities.
This helps the species because the we have two different standard brain formations, and homosexuality is a natural product of the system which allows these abilities to cross the gender barrier, resulting in a rise in intelligence. You can't expect people to change their mental abilities, so you can't expect people to change their sexuality.

Actually, Exodus' or one of the other prominient groups had their leaders leave because they still loved eachother after the "re-adjustment" program.


Firts off, I suggest all of you search for and read Doujin's "Homosexuality Explaine." A well written article.


Secondly, I almost refuse to take anyone who types "bcuse" and uses AIM shortcuts to explain their points.

Thirdly, I think it is pefectly natural, and I encourage all who are homosexual to keep being so. Hypocritical far-right fringe groups have no right to dictate your life. If your love is great enough, gender, sexuality, nothing matters. As long as you are together.

I would like you to back up your claim that the leader of exodus rejoined the homosexual lifestyle.

It is NOT natural.
not natural to any religion, not natural to cience or evolution of specie.
It goes against every kind of creed you may have.
it's a stupid form of making use of your genital forms NOT to procreate, or even worst, a form of use your... ahmm... not to leave your body residues.
Homossexually it's a marketing plan used by some governments to give to people a idea of freedom. It's a big lie. If the fuckin' television stop to bomb us with gay-related programation 24/7, sure less people would choose this bizarre way of life. Probably it would stops, after all, the gays of yesterday have no childs to keep their aidetic images alive and defend their position (whatever this position is!).
Sorry by some grammar errors, england isn't my language;*Buzz* Wrong.

Argument 1: "not natural to any religion"
Its natural to Paganism. (Little religion recap for people here, Pagans DO NOT, not now, not in the past, believe and/or worship Satan [or whatever you want to call it]. The people who worship Satan are called Satanists [see a name resemblence link there at all?]. Paganism is a open ended religion. Pagans [the main thread] do not have to worship anything at all. I dont. It is, in escence, a religion based on the elements of this earth, and attempting to shape your path in harmony with these elements ... look it up [and not on a Satanist webpage if you dont mind] if you doubt me ... I can even give you a good web page to look at about it if you like). Paganism is a recognised religion (and older then most of your "mainstream" religions) and it readily accepts homosexuals. Paganism generally sees anything unforced as natural. "Gayness" isnt forced onto people. Argument 1, dead.

Argument 2: "it's a stupid form of making use of your genital forms NOT to procreate"
Erm, right. So, whats going on with all the infertile people in this world? Born without the ability to pop kiddies out like a photocopying machine (like so many of you seem to think we are supposed to). They are all unnatural and such huh (even though there is nothing they can do about their situation)? Oh wait no, they are an acception or something right? *Buzz* Wrong. Also, what about the people who dont want kids? Gotta "cure" them of something too? If your argument is "people are made to make kids" and "genitals are given for the baby making only" If that is true I will probably piss myself laughing rolling around on the floor at the stupidity and meaninglessness of it all. Geez, if that is my sole purpose in life I may as well go jump off a bridge now then huh? Cos I wont be anything but a glorified incubator. No thanks, not my idea of fun. Just another note, if every time you have sexual incounters you wish to have kids - you aint gonna get much there are you? Argument 2, *boom*.

Argument 3: "Homossexually it's a marketing plan used by some governments to give to people a idea of freedom. It's a big lie. If the fuckin' television stop to bomb us with gay-related programation 24/7, sure less people would choose this bizarre way of life."
I'm not seeing all these "gay-related programs" you're seeing on 'main' TV. Get off the homosexual channel there huh? Then you wont have a problem with this "bombardment". "Choose homosexuality" ... *buzz* Wrong. Homosexuality is to give people the idea of freedom? WHAT FREEDOM? Cant even step out the door holding hands with someone of the same sex without being judged, ridiculed and downgraded by all of society. Freedom? Wanna try finding some place in mainstream society (that isnt a gay club) I wont be denied basic respect if I somehow show a homosexual preference? You talk of freedom? Argument 3, bye-bye.

Concluding argument: "the gays of yesterday have no childs to keep their aidetic images alive and defend their position".
You need kids to have a position defended in the future? What, somehow no more gays will ever come into this world? How did homosexuality "emerge" in the first place if you need a homosexual couple to make a homosexual child? Did I miss something? Concluding argument, *zap*.

So much said, so little achieved. *Sigh*.

You know what,

I've had a crap evening. I've felt blue all-day, but tonight I've just felt really down. Down, down, down. Down to the point that I have about a hair-line thick B.S. tolerance tonight. And all this certainly went fuck-far over that line tonight.

I've just read through an entire thread where the homophobic try to scientifically rationalise their bigotry with concepts of genetics/I] and [I]psychology. The people because of who mean I'm 18, " in the closet " as it were, and grew up in a family and wider society where I'm afraid to " come out " because I am afraid my parents won't love me any-more or friends won't speak to me. Because they have been exposed to this thinking, that I myself might not be " genetically correct " or " don't think straight " ( for once no pun intended ;) ). Well fuck it and any person on this forum who thinks I don't have a right or reason to feel the way I do and be who I am.

One thing stopped me from the thought of crying myself to sleep tonight. And I even found it on these forums. Just look at the bloody irony right there.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343648

There is I think, still some slight justice out there. :)

Why do you have to attach hateful labels to people that dont agree with you?

Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure which it was. I feel too far too Left-wing oriented to be able to make an un-biased statement anymore. *sighs*

Well, by this logic, early Christians were 'born' Christians and couldn't help it. After all who would want to live in fear of being stoned to death or fed to lions?Also by that theory, Pagans were 'born' Pagans too right? Cos who would want to choose to live in fear of the obviously persecuted Christians (sarcasm much) burning them, taking their kids away or drowning them? Hmm ...

Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure which it was. I feel too far too Left-wing oriented to be able to make an un-biased statement anymore. *sighs*

Make your statments based on fact, unless it is an opinion then say it is your opinion.

Thanks

Why do you have to attach hateful labels to people that dont agree with you?

Oh, don't worry dear, according to most of the " people that dont agree with " me its because I don't think straight. I suspect they also think it was because I was born this way. Oh well.

Any other way you'd like to try to under-mine my emotional out-burst in defence of my humanity ?

EDIT : Oh, I don't mean to add labels to those who are hateful to me, hell no, I only mean to label what they say and do, not what they are, I leave it up to them to make that clear. They do it well enough as is.

That's why I try to put the emphesis on "I" believe in my posts. However, I'm not perfect.

@Komokom,

I feel sorry for you. You have to admit that life would be much easier if you wouldn´t be that way your unfortunate destiny lead you to be for whatever reason.

That's why I try to put the emphesis on "I" believe in my posts. However, I'm not perfect.

Read your post! You stated as fact that a leader of Exodus left the organization to rejoin the homosexual lifestyle. It was obvious that you were trying to discredit the organization with a lie. Unless you have something to back the statement up with.

Thanks

@Komokom,

I feel sorry for you. You have to admit that life would be much easier if you wouldn´t be that way your unfortunate destiny lead you to be for whatever reason.

Or if people weren't such utter sadistic asswats. But hey, that's how they were born right?

"Pray to God now, and with His help, you can stop being a homosexual.
That's right, you can stop being something that has absolutely no negative effect on you apart from a few whining crybabies that moan about how it's wrong.
We think that this is a better solution than getting rid of the crybabies."LMAO!!!
HAHAHAHAHA! God will make me ungay. HAHAHAHAHA!

No negative effect? Except that we have to change our lifestyle choices to fit in with your choices and religion? Wonder how I would feel if I was in love with a woman, and forced to be with a man? ... now I could add something about homosexual suicide here (easy to see why), but I wont ... its obvious.

I don't know if anyone has corrected this yet or not, but this is a long running incorrect meme. Bonobo monkeys, for one, have sex for pleasure (i.e. they have both hetero and homosexual sex, masturbate, pull-out during 'normal' sex, and do things like oral and anal penetration), as do domesticated dogs (ever had one hump your leg?). In that vein, the males of many mammal species participate in masturbatory type behavior, which certainly has nothing to do with reproduction.

there's actually a slight difference between masturbating for the pure joy of an orgasm(or multiply ones ;)) and masturbating to tone down your sexual needs.

@Kynertabia [Or however you spell your name ;)]
I am bi-sexual, and in no way do I feel unfortunate. In fact, I feel great, as I have been in two loving, commited relationships with people I cared about. Your opinion and others didn't matter then, and they don't matter now, as all they are is small, hurtfull pieces of a contorted worldveiw.

Oh, don't worry dear, according to most of the " people that dont agree with " me its because I don't think straight. I suspect they also think it was because I was born this way. Oh well.

Any other way you'd like to try to under-mine my emotional out-burst in defence of my humanity ?

I just dont thinks its right to label people who disaggree with me with hateful labels. Thats why we debate things. It doesnt need to go to that level. I am sure you dont agree with me but I dont call you names and such, I respect you for your opinion.

LMAO!!!
HAHAHAHAHA! God will make me ungay. HAHAHAHAHA!

No negative effect? Except that we have to change our lifestyle choices to fit in with your choices and religion? Wonder how I would feel if I was in love with a woman, and forced to be with a man? ... now I could add something about homosexual suicide here (easy to see why), but I wont ... its obvious.

*smashes his head into a wall until it cracks*

Are people really this dense? Do I have some sort of gay-hating conservative radical Christian aura around me? What part of "sarcasm" do you not understand?

Or if people weren't such utter sadistic asswats. But hey, that's how they were born right?

Now thats not nice to label Gays in that way. Shame on you!

GRRRR!!!

Everytime i read these threads (about homosexuality) it just makes me really sad, but i have a few things to say.

1) Some of you have been talking about GENETICS and PSYCHOLOGY. First off there has been a great body of evidence stating that homosexuality is probably caused by environment and genes. There is no "gay" gene, that study has never been re-created, plus it was largely inconclusive. There are countless theories on homosexuality but now the professional belief is that psychology and medicine must help people adjust to their homosexuality rather than trying to change them. This belief also rests on the fact that homosexuality is NOT unnatural. I think most people in this forum making these statment about how its bad, disgusting, unnatural and what have you have never read a scientific journal regarding this issue. The BIBLE doesnt count as a scientific journal either, so shut the hell up about that.

2) If you are religious and think homosexuality is wrong, and you know someone who is gay or whatever, just pray for them instead of SHOVING your beliefs down their throats. I dont think they care for your disaproval!

GRRRR!!!

Everytime i read these threads (about homosexuality) it just makes me really sad, but i have a few things to say.

1) Some of you have been talking about GENETICS and PSYCHOLOGY. First off there has been a great body of evidence stating that homosexuality is probably caused by environment and genes. There is no "gay" gene, that study has never been re-created, plus it was largely inconclusive. There are countless theories on homosexuality but now the professional belief is that psychology and medicine must help people adjust to their homosexuality rather than trying to change them. This belief also rests on the fact that homosexuality is NOT unnatural. I think most people in this forum making these statment about how its bad, disgusting, unnatural and what have you have never read a scientific journal regarding this issue. The BIBLE doesnt count as a scientific journal either, so shut the hell up about that.

2) If you are religious and think homosexuality is wrong, and you know someone who is gay or whatever, just pray for them instead of SHOVING your beliefs down their throats. I dont think they care for your disaproval!

Then why do we have a forum to discuss it then?

Now thats not nice to label Gays in that way. Shame on you!

*repeats previous post*

if not for the influences of the media and society, would ppl grow up with orientation towards the same sex, i think not.

Homossexually it's a marketing plan used by some governments to give to people a idea of freedom. It's a big lie. If the fuckin' television stop to bomb us with gay-related programation 24/7, sure less people would choose this bizarre way of life. Probably it would stops, after all, the gays of yesterday have no childs to keep their aidetic images alive and defend their position (whatever this position is!).


Do you two guys have any idea how old gayrelationships are in history of man?

*smashes his head into a wall until it cracks*

Are people really this dense? Do I have some sort of gay-hating conservative radical Christian aura around me? What part of "sarcasm" do you not understand?The funny thing is, I have seen enough completely serious statements that sound exactly like that - I took them as sarcasm, only to find out they werent. I think I just count them all as serious now for. If you were being sarcastic ... then, my statement holds, just not in direct relation to yours.

No harm done I hope.

@Kynertabia [Or however you spell your name ;)]
I am bi-sexual, and in no way do I feel unfortunate. In fact, I feel great, as I have been in two loving, commited relationships with people I cared about. Your opinion and others didn't matter then, and they don't matter now, as all they are is small, hurtfull pieces of a contorted worldveiw.

It would have only be neccesary to scroll down to cheque the name. By the way, it is the name of my nation- as we are in nation states - not my personal name. I´m male.

I think you are however in a different situation than the gay people. You can marry, found a family, have children.
You can lead a life which follows values - well, if you get over this homosexual thing.

Gays can´t. And that´s why I feel a bit sorry for them due to the lifestyle which creates a big gap between them and the rest of the society.

Do you two guys have any idea how old gayrelationships are in history of man?
ya, the thing is it has been condemned by God since the fall of man.

@Komokom,

I feel sorry for you. You have to admit that life would be much easier if you wouldn´t be that way your unfortunate destiny lead you to be for whatever reason.

...

Please, Kybernetia, don't, its bad enough you " @ " at people, the in-sincere pity might make people think you really are being rude on purpose.

God that felt great. I'm off to bed. Good-night to all for now.

"its bad enough you " @ " at people"

???? Why is the @ bad?????
Well, in my country it isn´t. If that is supposed to be a joke I don´t get it. I´m not a native English speaker after all.
Admitedly my sorrow for you is pretty limmitted since I don´t know you. But I don´t wish anybody harm.
And that the lifestyle your are living is more difficult than the other one is a fact you can not deny.

i think it's natural. . if you say that it's unnatural, then how is it with bisexual humans? in a way, i think we are all a little homosexual, because if we weren't we wouldn't have same-sex relationships... just because i have a female freind, does not mean that i have to "love" her...

It would have only be neccesary to scroll down to cheque the name. By the way, it is the name of my nation- as we are in nation states - not my personal name. I´m male.

I think you are however in a different situation than the gay people. You can marry, found a family, have children.
You can lead a life which follows values - well, if you get over this homosexual thing.

Gays can´t. And that´s why I feel a bit sorry for them due to the lifestyle which creates a big gap between them and the rest of the society.

As a bisexual, I say it's not a choice who I fall in love with. What would it be like for you if more than 50% of the people you fall in love with you couldn't form an accepted relationship? Why do I have make that decision and you don't?

And why in the hell has no-one ever made the effort to prove that homosexuality is a choice by turning gay, just to show it can be done? There's no intent to defy God there, the subject would just be proving that change is possible. But no, it's never happened, not once in 10000 years, or do you have a link?

Why these threads? Argh. People have probably said this how many times in this thread already, but honestly, if it isn't natural then why does it happen, including in other spieces besides humans?

As for pity, Kybernetia, that never did anything. Sympathy says, "Well that's too bad." Empathy tries to do something to correct inequity in the world. What have you done lately to dispell stereotyping and stigma? It's not that damned unfortunate to be gay. What's unfortunate is some people's reaction to it. I for one love the fact that I'm gay and wouldn't change it for anything. However, I probably wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy thanks to certain people's attitudes regarding the orientation.

Why do you have to attach hateful labels to people that dont agree with you?

Maybe, just maybe, because some of those, like you, are trying to force his views on him?

Another note:

What we ought to be doing is educating young gays and lesbians as well as all those other "sexual deviants" as they are often refered to... in other words, we should teach these normal people how to deal with the prevalent encounters with closed-minded, ignorant, hating and bigoted individuals in order to live a more healthy life. and are there any rebuttals to my last post? looks like there isnt because GOD is NOT a logical argument.

And why in the hell has no-one ever made the effort to prove that homosexuality is a choice by turning gay, just to show it can be done? There's no intent to defy God there, the subject would just be proving that change is possible. But no, it's never happened, not once in 10000 years, or do you have a link?

how can you ask that if its not possible. Clearly homosexuals killing themselves is proof enough that it's NOT a choice.

@Komokom,

I feel sorry for you. You have to admit that life would be much easier if you wouldn´t be that way your unfortunate destiny lead you to be for whatever reason.

and why is that?

because there is so many untollerant persons in our world. wich is what makes me feel sad.

I'm not sure why it matters what the cause is.

I'm not sure why it matters what the cause is.

i agree but some argue that if its genetic then it cant be changed, and gays are "mutants" of sorts. it has many social implications if it was to be genetic, as opposed to environmental causes. clearly anyone with an ounce of knowledge regarding the basis of psychology understands that it doesnt matter what the cause is. What matters is how people adjust to issues and difficulties. The only problem with being gay, is dealing with ignorant people who have no empathy or understanding. the reason why some gay people commit suicide is because there are those in their environment who make them feel like monsters, when really they are pretty much like everyone else.

As a bisexual, I say it's not a choice who I fall in love with. What would it be like for you if more than 50% of the people you fall in love with you couldn't form an accepted relationship? Why do I have make that decision and you don't?
And why in the hell has no-one ever made the effort to prove that homosexuality is a choice by turning gay, just to show it can be done? There's no intent to defy God there, the subject would just be proving that change is possible. But no, it's never happened, not once in 10000 years, or do you have a link?
I have not said that homosexuality is a complete free will choice. I have actually referred to Sigmund Freud who sees it as a result of a trauma in early childhood.
Furthernmore there is research which indicate that genetics MAY play a role.
However: this question is - to my knowledge - still unanswered. So, I´m not judging on that one.

As for falling in love: I don´t know how often that happens in your life. I think it is a pretty seldom thing actually. You should not mix up feeling in love to sexual attraction to one person, which many people actually mix up. I know that myself. Since I´m a man I know the problem of controlling that the brain is still in controll and not another organ.

I hope for you that at the end of the day you find happiness in a heterosexual relationship.

i agree but some argue that if its genetic then it cant be changed, and gays are "mutants" of sorts. it has many social implications if it was to be genetic, as opposed to environmental causes. clearly anyone with an ounce of knowledge regarding the basis of psychology understands that it doesnt matter what the cause is. What matters is how people adjust to issues and difficulties. The only problem with being gay, is dealing with ignorant people who have no empathy or understanding. the reason why some gay people commit suicide is because there are those in their environment who make them feel like monsters, when really they are pretty much like everyone else.Agreed.

I think you are however in a different situation than the gay people. You can marry, found a family, have children.
You can lead a life which follows values - well, if you get over this homosexual thing.

Gays can´t. And that´s why I feel a bit sorry for them due to the lifestyle which creates a big gap between them and the rest of the society.

I sure hope that in the US(assuming that's where you are from since most posters in this forum is from there) they do not take the right to marry someone of the oposite gender if you declare yourself homosexual. If I am right, someone who is homosexual can marry and have kids etc.

However, a homosexual can't marry someone who they love. Hetrosexuals can. Bisexuals can also, but only if thier lifepartner is of the oposite gender.

And what exacly do you mean with getting over this "homosexual thing"?

I have not said that homosexuality is a complete free will choice. I have actually referred to Sigmund Freud who sees it as a result of a trauma in early childhood.
Furthernmore there is research which indicate that genetics MAY play a role.
However: this question is - to my knowledge - still unanswered. So, I´m not judging on that one.

As for falling in love: I don´t know how often that happens in your life. I think it is a pretty seldom thing actually. You should not mix up feeling in love to sexual attraction to one person, which many people actually mix up. I know that myself. Since I´m a man I know the problem of controlling that the brain is still in controll and not another organ.

I hope for you that at the end of the day you find happiness in a heterosexual relationship.

do you think by quoting Freud you are an expert? Most of Freud's theories have been disproven, and i know this because i have a degree in psych. Stating that genetics MAY cause something is also a very general statment, describing no actual probability. Genetics may cause homosexuality just like eating bacon may cause brain tumors. Studies regarding homosexuals and genes have all been inconclusive because the "gay gene" was found in gays and straights, these studies have been small, using only men and there have been few because there hasn't been a trend. It is PROBABLY a combination of environmental and genetic factors.

I hope that at the end of the day people find HAPPINESS. Period.

ya, the thing is it has been condemned by God since the fall of man.

And you would back this up how? quoting the bible? Now quoting the bible is always fun cause it is so long it contradicts itself on so many places. Therefor, if I was a Christian, I would take statements from the bible with a pinch of salt. If we shouldn't do so, why would he then have gifted us with the capasity to do so?

I hope for you that at the end of the day you find happiness in a heterosexual relationship.What if I find happiness in a homosexual relationship? Is that just a "sexual attraction"? I believe the definition of love is up to the individual person who believes they are in love. Not to the people looking at their relationship from outside. If someone says they are in love, who are we to say they arent? "You arent in love, you're just gay" ... *buzz* Wrong.

Leviticus chp 18: 22-23
(God speaking to Moses)

22 aThou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

22 says don't lie with man like you would with a women.

Leviticus chp 18: 22-23
(God speaking to Moses)

22 aThou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

22 says don't lie with man like you would with a women.

Why should I care?

Maybe, just maybe, because some of those, like you, are trying to force his views on him?

Well...isnt this a debate? I guess you would just like everyone just to agree with your opinion and just shut this forum down?

Leviticus chp 18: 22-23
(God speaking to Moses)

22 aThou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


That's the worst translation I've ever seen of that passage.

how can you ask that if its not possible. Clearly homosexuals killing themselves is proof enough that it's NOT a choice.

I know it's not possible, you know it's not possible. I'm just saying that the complete and total absence of a single effort to turn straights gay shows that it's hypocritical to say homosexuality is a choice if you can't show that heterosexuality is a choice. If one isn't, surely the other can't be.

What if I find happiness in a homosexual relationship? Is that just a "sexual attraction"? I believe the definition of love is up to the individual person who believes they are in love. Not to the people looking at their relationship from outside. If someone says they are in love, who are we to say they arent? "You arent in love, you're just gay" ... *buzz* Wrong.

Hmmmm my sister and I are in love and want to be together. Would that be acceptable to you?

Hmmmm my sister and I are in love and want to be together. Would that be acceptable to you?

Sure. Go right ahead.

And why in the hell has no-one ever made the effort to prove that homosexuality is a choice by turning gay, just to show it can be done? There's no intent to defy God there, the subject would just be proving that change is possible. But no, it's never happened, not once in 10000 years, or do you have a link?

Okay, okay. If it's for science, then I'll do it. Just to prove once and for all that homosexuality can be environmental as well as genetic.

But only if Kybernetia consents too.

Hmmmm my sister and I are in love and want to be together. Would that be acceptable to you?

why not? Read 100 Years of Solitude. Oh if only your sarcasm had proved a point..

Well...isnt this a debate? I guess you would just like everyone just to agree with your opinion and just shut this forum down?

No, You said to someone earlier something like "Here is the help you need" and gave him a link to a group that trys to convert homosexuals into hetrosexuals. Now, I don't think that was debating, was it?

Jeff 13:23-24
(God talking to Conan O'Brian about teh old and new testaments)

23 Weeeeeelll... I made up most of the rules as a joke... like the one about sleeping with guys. It was never meant to be taken seriously. It was really funny if you actually knew the people I was talking about... Well I guess you had to be there.
24 Conan wept.

(lesser known bible)

You people are talking about Homosexuality not only like it is a disease, but like it is a chore some parents set for their kids. The fact that you can take yourselves seriously when you make statements like 'it can help him get out of homosexuality' really amases me :headbang: . I think if any one is sick it is that 36% (or what ever it is) who think it's un-natural.

Hmmmm my sister and I are in love and want to be together. Would that be acceptable to you?

Damn, Harkotopia got there before me. Anyway, seconded, get in there.

As for the Leviticus statement, I'll give another translation, since someone didn't care for the one the other person gave:

22 Nanti lie with homiekind, as with palonekind: it is dowry cod.

All right, that might apply to me, but how does it apply to a man who's exclusively homosexual?

Hmmmm my sister and I are in love and want to be together. Would that be acceptable to you?Thats off the gay topic all together. Thats into incest - whole different can of beans. I dont like the idea of it (boy - boy, girl - girl or girl - boy), but that doesnt stop people. I'm also not going to go and start a parade to protest it. Or attack you. If you are happy ... power to you.

I get what you are trying to do though. Its not gonna work. Sorry, nice try.

My official viewpoint is, "I dunno."

Also, natural or not, does it matter? What influence to our lives does it have either way? And how can we be sure that we are correct about it, and before you even think about replying; "Because the bible says so!" Consider this passage (exodus 22:29 new international version);

"Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons." - That would mean firsborn sons should be sacrificed, no?

I hope for you that at the end of the day you find happiness in a heterosexual relationship.

I'm curious what you'd consider a heterosexual relationship for me. According to my state, I'm male, simply because when I was born the doctor decided that I was a boy. They weren't exactly sure.

Growing up I never felt right as a boy/man. Eventually I got help, and have transitioned to living as a woman. It turns out that not only am I genetically female, but internally I have female organs, just not functional (lots of fun, I get all the joys of a period without being fertile :-/).


So am I male (It's what I am in the eyes of the law right now, externally it sure looked that way growing up), or female (what I am internally, and genetically).

Yeah, I'm screwed up physically...I know that. But obviously I didn't have any choice in that matter. I am what I am.

Maybe we should send you all to the Jerry Springer show... you can argue it all there (incest included) and the you will OFFICIALLY be classed as entertainment...

my point being... with all these bible references, and asking if sleeping wit your sister is as moral as sleeping with another totaly un-related guy... I think we should start movind (even just slightly) back to topic...

Does anyone think i could go to Exodus International Meetings or whatever they have and wreak havoc? God that would make me feel so good. Groups like that are so freakin' scary... instead of education, they promote the ignorance and bigotry about being gay. How sad

We love lesbians! We love lesbians!

I'm curious what you'd consider a heterosexual relationship for me. According to my state, I'm male, simply because when I was born the doctor decided that I was a boy. They weren't exactly sure.
Growing up I never felt right as a boy/man. Eventually I got help, and have transitioned to living as a woman. It turns out that not only am I genetically female, but internally I have female organs, just not functional (lots of fun, I get all the joys of a period without being fertile :-/).
So am I male (It's what I am in the eyes of the law right now, externally it sure looked that way growing up), or female (what I am internally, and genetically).
Yeah, I'm screwed up physically...I know that. But obviously I didn't have any choice in that matter. I am what I am.

Well, I´m not a doctor and not at all an expert to that. So apologize my question: Are you an hermaphrodite (spelling??) and after your birth the doctors and your parents thought you should grow up as a boy????
If you think the decision was wrong you may decide to go through a change of gender. Then you could also legally become a woman - if that is possible where you are - I´m not from the US.
Currently you are legally a man and since that is the case I would count you under that category since I believe in the rule of law. However if you don´t feel that way and you have even some female sexual organs I would ask you whether you have considered changing your sex?????

That our moral, intellectual capacity is no better than that of a monkey are we to degrade ourselves? that we will assume thats its alright to take part in such activities since primitive, unintellectual(compared to humans) animals already take part in them.

+

Originally Posted by Jeremites
Why? bcos it goes against the way we were created.

=WTF?^^

No really, which is it?
"Homosexuality is bad because it's acting like animals"
or
"Homosexuality is bad because it's unnatural"?

aaah... another dedicater Springer fan :P

with regards to going to exodus just to see if you could break them... it's something I would do... I'm not gay, but that wouldn't stop me having fun at their expense... if you haven't guessed already, I'm a professional s***-stirer (except for teh being paied for it part... or teh being hired/commisioned part)

But you know you're on ther wrong side of the argument when the smilies aer against you! :fluffle: THOSE LITTLE FELLAHS AREN'T HEDRO!

:eek: and I think this one just recently discovered it...

I believe in the rule of law.

even when that law is discriminating or an abuse of power?

aaah... another dedicater Springer fan :P

with regards to going to exodus just to see if you could break them... it's something I would do... I'm not gay, but that wouldn't stop me having fun at their expense... if you haven't guessed already, I'm a professional s***-stirer (except for teh being paied for it part... or teh being hired/commisioned part)

But you know you're on ther wrong side of the argument when the smilies aer against you! :fluffle: THOSE LITTLE FELLAHS AREN'T HEDRO!

:eek: and I think this one just recently discovered it...

sweet. i want to start a revolution with this exodus crap. im gonna do more research and see if i can go to a meeting or however they organize, and bring some good friends along... hmm

Well, I´m not a doctor and not at all an expert to that. So apologize my question: Are you an hermaphrodite (spelling??) and after your birth the doctors and your parents thought you should grow up as a boy????
If you think the decision was wrong you may decide to go through a change of gender. Then you could also legally become a woman - if that is possible where you are - I´m not from the US.
Currently you are legally a man and since that is the case I would count you under that category since I believe in the rule of law. However if you don´t feel that way and you have even some female sexual organs I would ask you whether you have considered changing your sex?????
I'm intersexed, yes (hermaphrodite really has a bad connotation, though most people don't know any other term). When I was born, a doctor decided that I was a boy, 'fixed' what wasn't right, and that's what was put on my birth certificate.

I started the process to go through with sexual reassignment before I actually knew my medical situation. That's how I found out. After this January, legally I'll be female (in my home state at least). But I'll still be the same person, in a relationship with the same man (well hopefully ;) ).

So does a court order turn my homosexual relationship in to heterosexual one? How about if I visit a state that doesn't recognize me as being a woman, does it revert back to a homosexual one?

it is my aim in life to bring down as many of those religion-related 'you must live your life like this' organisations as I can...

they aer out-dated styles of thinking which say 'man was created equal, so damn well act like the rest of them' or 'all mankind are equal... except for us... we own you'

they are old ways of thinking, and no longer apply to the real world.

I remember a friend of mine telling me about a scene in an episode of Will and Grace at a "homosexual reform" meeting. The organiser begins by saying something like 'Anyone who thinks this is a gay pick-up joint can get up and leave now'. Everyone gets up and leaves.

What was that Exodus website again? :)

Of course homosexuality isn't natural. That is fairly self evident. However, I do not believe anyone has the right to oppose the practices of others, as long as they are not involved. Virtually nothing humanity does anymore can be considered "natural". The electronics used to create this very site and forum isn't natural and should not exist. But that does'nt seem to stop anyone here.

The notion that homosexuality is unnatural is merely a silly point in the childish argument opposing the the tendencies of others.

Besides, it is not uncommon for people to merely be gay when they are young, but later on get married to a member of the opposite sex and have children.

This is the most pointless thread i've ever read. No it's not naturual. At the end of the debate it's always going to point out that it is not natural.

This is the most pointless thread i've ever read. No it's not naturual. At the end of the debate it's always going to point out that it is not natural.

Then tell us why it's not natural?

Define natural. some people say that nothing is natural anymore, some say that there is a defenition, and I say that if it exists it is natural. Someone naturaly designed computers... it was going to happen... it is a natural urge for humans to improve those things around us to suit our needs (improve, destroy... it's all the same thing) I think the fact that two guys or two girls can and willingly do have real relationships shows that it is a natural phenomenon. if it was un-natural, then it would never have happened in the first place. I agree that this debate is stupid. No-one really has the right to decide who someone else spends their life and intamacy with. it may seem wrong to you, but that is because you were brought up being told that it was wrong (note that there was no REAL explanation that can be proven against gay relationships, and don't start quoting bible verses at me, either. I'm not religious and that's that. I don't feel the need to have an imaginary friend to feel secure in my life).

good, evil, right and wrong are all perceptions that are hammered into you as a child. they don't really exist.

I'm intersexed, yes (hermaphrodite really has a bad connotation, though most people don't know any other term). When I was born, a doctor decided that I was a boy, 'fixed' what wasn't right, and that's what was put on my birth certificate.
I started the process to go through with sexual reassignment before I actually knew my medical situation. That's how I found out. After this January, legally I'll be female (in my home state at least). But I'll still be the same person, in a relationship with the same man (well hopefully ;) ).
So does a court order turn my homosexual relationship in to heterosexual one? How about if I visit a state that doesn't recognize me as being a woman, does it revert back to a homosexual one?
Not the court order but the process of sexual reassignment. The change of your name to a female one - makes you legally to a woman while you - I assume - have become biologically a woman before.
I don´t know when you started your relationship with your partner but you must have went through some changes in this process of reassignment. So you where legally still a man but technically probably not.
When you change your name - legally - you become a woman and the relationship is undoubtably heterosexual. And you can marry of course.

I don´t know US law but as far as I know marriages are recognized in every state regardless where they took place.
Whether a state rejects the reassignment is not in my knowledge. As a matter of fact many countries do that to help those people which had this unfortunate destiny by no fault of their own.

undefined From my opinion I think homosexuality is normal just because.... they have the same affection as people that like opposite sex but with the same sex. What's so wrong about feeling the same way with the same sex? I'm not homosexual but some people are and I have no problem with that. And people who think that it is wrong some of them might think that is wrong to like someone of the opposite sex. Either way were both people and there is no wrong to that.

Everything in the universe is "natural", which answers this thread's question succinctly.

Well, accordinng to Dictionary.com:

Natural-
1.Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.

450+ species exhibit homosexual relations of some degree, all the way from simple sexual encounters to same-sex pair bonding. So, on count one, homosexuality is present in or produced by nature.

2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.

Doesn't really apply to the argument.

3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

Here there might be some wiggle room, as homosexuality is most likely to the "usual" or "ordinary" course of nature. However, this same argument can be said for infertile females or sterile males of any species, so they would then be "unnatural" by the same justification. So it's a double-edged sword. If you're going to rule homosexuality as "unnatural" by this definition, then you're going to have to call a whole lot of other people unnatural as well.

4a: Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
4b: Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
4c: Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.

Again, the occurance of homosexuality in over 450 species that do not all exhibit strong precedence of overriding natural impulses argues that homosexuality is indeed inherent.

5: Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions.

Well, obviously.

6: Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.

So long as one is open about their homosexuality, this definition also seems to apply.

7: Faithfully representing nature or life.

Again, not to harp, but 450+ species.

8: Expected and accepted: “In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love” (Duff Cooper).

Ah, here we go. Homosexuality is neither "expected" nor "accepted", so by this definition one could make an argument that homosexuality is not natural.

9: Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.

Again, this might be grounds for an argument, if one's opposition to homosexuality extends from a moral judgement.

10: Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.

Homosexuals seem to be very fastidious in their appearance and take pride in their social structures, so perhaps again, by this definition, they would be "unnatural", leaving "natural" to heterosexuals.

11a: Related by blood: the natural parents of the child.
11b: Born of unwed parents: a natural child.

Again, doesn't really apply.

12: Mathematics. Of or relating to positive integers, sometimes including zero.

Well, I guess you can never have a negative number of homosexuals, so they would indeed be positive.

13a: Music. Not sharped or flatted.
13b: Having no sharps or flats.

Homosexuals are notorious for their love of music. However, their feelings on accidentals are currently unknown, so this one is open to both sides.

So really, it's a mixed bag. If you're talking biology, clearly homosexuals are indeed "natural". If you're talking morality, you may have a case for labelling homosexuals "unnatural".

There has been this wide spread misconception that all gay people are rapists. I don't know what part of lieking another person of teh same sex instantly strips you of all morals and rational though (not to mention standards). A GAY MALE IS NOT GOING TO ATTEMPT TO RAPE EVERY MALE ARSE HE SEES! JUST AS YOU DON'T GO AROUND GRABBING EVERY BREAST YOU SEE! GET OVER YOUR OWN EGO! GAY PEOPLE DON'T FIND YOU THAT ATTRACTIVE!

There has been this wide spread misconception that all gay people are rapists. I don't know what part of lieking another person of teh same sex instantly strips you of all morals and rational though (not to mention standards). A GAY MALE IS NOT GOING TO ATTEMPT TO RAPE EVERY MALE ARSE HE SEES! JUST AS YOU DON'T GO AROUND GRABBING EVERY BREAST YOU SEE! GET OVER YOUR OWN EGO! GAY PEOPLE DON'T FIND YOU THAT ATTRACTIVE!

Huh? Where did that come from?

even when that law is discriminating or an abuse of power?

I believe in the Radbruch formula. That indeed says that laws can be so unjust, so cruel that they have to be rejected because all reasonable people would do so.
But this applies to very extreme cases. Radbruch state that even an injust law has its good sides since it gives legal security. And security and order are important.
We don´t want to life in chaos and anarchy. The rule of law and the acceptance of it is the condition under which we can live in peace.

There is actually another position: That are the right-positivists. They say: every written law is right if it was legally passed regardless what it says. (positive meaning in that sense written down). However this position is today almost non-existent. To many dictators used that attitude of order is order - law is law.
But after all, even the soldier can refuse orders (but only in very extreme cases) when they are against the law of war. Since that is the case also lawyers have the right to refuse very extreme laws. That´s the way Radbruch begins his famous article (after world war II) were he demands the end of the right-positivism.
I know the common law doesn´t refers so much to written law, but to precedents. And they exists regarding this issue as well.

And since it can´t be said that the denial of marriage (which is after all an instuition which is historically between one man and one woman) is in any way an extreme form of torture or even murder such laws can´t be rejected.
You may suggest to change them: But that is a matter for parliament and not the courts.
You are never going to get a majority for that - at least in most countries - I don´t know what you Canadians are up to over there.

Huh? Where did that come from?
It came from tiredness and the overall stupidity of this debate. and btw.. some nice points from dictionary.com... and I think there is less chance of an accidental in a homosexual relationship... if there is, then it obviously isn't truly a homosexual realtionship then is it? :P

Well, Thank Goodness for all I am here to set the record straight. No pun intended.

On the question of homosexuality being natural:

Many people think that men with less testosterone and more estrogen tend to become homosexuals, and women with more testosterone do the same...

But according to Dr. George Boeree of Shippensburg University, PA it's not a matter necessarily of Estrogen Vs. Testosterone:

"Men with higher levels of testosterone tend to have a more masculine appearance, tend to behave in a more masculine fashion, and tend to be more aggressive. Men with less testosterone tend to look and act somewhat more like women, and women with more testosterone than other women tend to look and act somewhat more like men. However, there is no overpowering connection between testosterone levels and homosexuality in human beings: Researchers have found no differences between male homosexuals and heterosexuals when it comes to how much testosterone is circulating in their blood."

However, there does seem to be some biological factor dividing heteros and homosexuals, as homosexuals and heterosexuals seem to start becoming attracted to others of one sex or another before even the obvious onset of puberty.

"...the argument that at least a good portion of our sexual orientation is biological is hard to deny. Homosexuals often say that they have felt an attraction to the same sex as long as they can remember. And studies by Martha McClintock and Gilbert Herdt show that both homosexuals and heterosexuals develop attractions to the same or opposite sex at around the age of ten, two or three years before they begin developing the clearer signs of puberty. With heterosexuality our clear cultural norm, we should not see any same-sex attraction if it were only a learned behavior! Instead, we see somewhere between 3 and 10% of the population considering themselves homosexual. (The figures are so ambivalent, no doubt, because of that cultural norm!)"

So the short answer is: Is homosexuality natural? It seems to be.

The truth of the matter is that the human brain is still such a mystery to us, even at the dawn of the 21st century, that we simply havent figured out what the biological difference between heteros and homos is yet. If nothing else, that leads us to believe that whatever the difference is, it's not a huge one, and maybe, just maybe, the difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals isn't really that big a deal after-all.

Quotes taken from:
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/sexualorientation.html

I haven´t said that it is non-neutral, I have said that it is not very positive. Forming a family, marriage that is positive. Those instituitions deserve protection.

It is outrageous that homosexuals want to claim the benefits and the support this instituitions receive by calling for gay-marriage.

i have no intention of ever having children, regardless of the gender of the person i marry. since i will never form "a family" that includes offspring, does that mean that i am out of line to ask to have a marriage recognized by the state? should infertile couples also be denied the right to wed, since they will not be forming a biological family with offspring of their own? should couples who choose to adopt not count as "families" because they haven't had biological children of their own?

forgive me, but i wasn't aware that "family" required offspring, and that adopted offspring didn't count. perhaps that is the news you need to get out to the rest of the world, because most Americans haven't gotten the memo.

I say its not natural. Its a mental disease, like shitzophrenia or paranoid dementia, that needs to be cured. Whether or not its genetic is irrelevant to whether its 'natural' or 'harmful', etc, thats an entirely different argument.

just to be clear, organic brain disorders like the ones you listed ARE natural. they occur naturally in the brain, without any human interaction to cause them. so you just proved yourself wrong in one sentence...well done.

This is the most pointless thread i've ever read. No it's not naturual. At the end of the debate it's always going to point out that it is not natural.

unless, of course, we stoop the the horrible, low trick of using fact and documented scientific evidence. i know, i know, it's a bastardly thing to do, bringing reality into a discussion like this one...i shouldn't do that, it's mean to use my nasty, biased facts to show how wrong people are...

unless, of course, we stoop the the horrible, low trick of using fact and documented scientific evidence. i know, i know, it's a bastardly thing to do, bringing reality into a discussion like this one...i shouldn't do that, it's mean to use my nasty, biased facts to show how wrong people are...

why use fact when you can shout wild baseless conjecture really loudly and often, then itll be true, more true than things people have taken the time to prove.

Well, I don't know which form of homosexuality you're talking about.

As far as homosexual ACTS, we see them in a lot of animals, like monkeys, dolphins, the list goes on.

But homosexuality as far as completely abstaining from the opposite sex, to my knowledge, exists only in humans. We haven't found any animals that ONLY engage in sexual intercourse with the same sex (those that have had sex with the same sex still go after the opposite ones).

Of course, what I have said is only to my knowledge, and may have been proven wrong already.

rape is not only natural but frequently so, genocide is 100% natural, dictatorship and the primordial equivolent of martial law are quite natural...I fail to see the relevancy of weither or not it is "natural" to any discussion whatsoever. the majority of what we do has little to nothing to do with reproduction - people should be as loudly complaining against oral sex and condoms if the reproductive value of sex has anything to do with it's moral validity. this "natural or not" argument gets old - I could really care less, I'm inclined to agree with frued that it has to do with early childhood relationships. I'm probably gay because I'm vastly more intellegent than my father, thus skewing our relationship out of the realm of average. If such men as davinchi and socrates are in my company as freaks, I would certainly hate to be "natural". get over it you petty idiots.

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.
If it isn't natural, according to your logic, geese would have died out by now, because they actually are also affected by the phenomenon of homosexuality. The other case of homosexuality in the animal world I know of is a type of bedbug.

I odn't care with this stuff, why to discuss if homosexuallty is or is not natural, just respect the gays (what I do, altrough I am not gay) if they wnat to be how they are it is what they wnat, why would I care?

If it isn't natural, according to your logic, geese would have died out by now, because they actually are also affected by the phenomenon of homosexuality. The other case of homosexuality in the animal world I know of is a type of bedbug.

that is correct - to whatever idiot he was refuting, we aren't arguing that homosexuals are a SPECIES. moron.

Natural?

Of course it is.

Everyone, animal, human, were all born BI and can switch at any time. So the option has been there since birth.

Now as far as animals only being Heterosexual or Bisexual, this could very well be the case, animals are not intellectuals, their main desire is to continue the species. Naturally then they want to always be with the opposet sex at some point, but some still go after their own.

As far as humans go, we have no NEED to continue our speices, we are over populated as it is!!! There fore, along with the human races abilty to comprehend our wants/needs and control them, we have the capability to be attracted to only the members of the same sex if we so find them appealing.

We are born Bi, does not mean we stay that way. You may be a girl and find other girls attractive, and boys, well, not. Or you may be a girl who sees boys as hott stuff and girls as girls.

Or you could veiw both sexes as attractive.

It happens.

This attraction occurs in your subconsious, so there is no way you can control it occuring, but you can force your mind to believe somthing else.

Since the begining of the whole "Homosexuality is unNatural " starting, humans have completely re wired themselves to not allowing their natural wants and desires to come forth "I'm a GUY I should like GIRLS" said guy would then alienate himself from the guys and become a girl seeking jerk.

Blame society that this outbreak didn't occur naturally.

In fact it had to happen secretly.

No disrespect meant but many preists and bishops taught their "Apprentices" a few tricks that had nothing to do with the bible.

Think before you try to stop someone from being who they are, and before you cast them from society for making a choice that is best for them.

The only reason i think that's natural is cuz i used to have a cat who was only "interested" in other male cats. If animals have the possibility to be gay than how could homosexuality not be natural?

why use fact when you can shout wild baseless conjecture really loudly and often, then itll be true, more true than things people have taken the time to prove.

perhaps if i just yell JESUS TOLD ME GAYS ARE SUPER! really loud, over and over and over again, then that will become true...that would save me the time of actually having to get an education or learn the real, proven biological reasons why homosexuality is natural. and, of course, more people would believe me, because instead of using my silly facts and evidence i would be doing things their way: loud and repetative wins!!

I certainly hope anyone who thinks that Homosexuality is against the word of God abstains from masturbation. I believe it is mentioned in the same passage as homosexuality in the bible...

unfortunately this thread has gotten boring. this is a subject i really care about, but people are right whether it's natural or not isn't the issues. it's whether or not homosexuals can be tolerated and hopefully accepted. i havent hear a SINGLE reasonable argument as to why they shouldn't. And by reasonable (citing the Bible and your personal disgust doesnt count) Just get over yourself!

Think about it this way: With all the persecution of homosexuals, all the hatred, all the hate crimes, who in their right minds would choose to be gay?

I've talked to many gay people and they all say that if they could become straight to avoid all the harrassment, they would. Except that it goes against their nature.

Also, consider the fact that the idea of homosexuality has been recorded for ages. It is mentioned in the Bible and in Greek and Roman texts before that. If it wasn't natural then all the stigma about it being horrible and wrong would have gotten rid of it by now. But despite people's best attempts to get rid of homosexuality, it's still around. That means that it has to be inside the person, not created by influence or changed on command.

I am a creature of nature and I firmly believe that the feelings I have for both men and women are completely and utterly natural and normal.

wow...71 people in NS General are uninformed.


Well....is that really surprising to anyone?

Why is it that I always end up on the tail end of all the really good argument threads here? :rolleyes:

I say its not natural. Its a mental disease, like shitzophrenia or paranoid dementia, that needs to be cured.

I say you are stupid... it's comments like this that piss me off!!! It's not a mental disease, not since the 60s. Consult your local DSM or any mental health professional. One of the ways a mental disease is defined is it has to cause distress in the individual. The distress experienced by homosexuals is due to the fact that a large chunk of society is HORRIBLE to them, not because they are unhappy being gay on a personal level. As opposed to someone who is schizophrenic, someone who knows that they are sick and want to not be sick anymore (like not wanting to hear voices in your head). Paranoid dementia is a disease with an organic cause (like old age). Don’t say dumb things and learn to spell your psych terms!

I rather stick to Sigmund Freund in that respect who saw homosexuality caused by a trauma in childhood.

He also said that women all want penises and men all want to have sex with their mothers. So what?

Probably it is going to be possible to help this unfortunate people to become heterosexual and by doing so become accepted members of society.

I think the medical community should spend its time trying to cure actual diseases. You know, the things that hurt people? There's no point spening research time and money trying to "cure" something that is perfectly natural and hurts no one.

wow...71 people in NS General are uninformed.


Well....is that really surprising to anyone?

ummm excuse me what?

Of course, what I have said is only to my knowledge, and may have been proven wrong already.

They have done studies in which animals were separated from their same-sex partners and then forcibly kept with opposite-gendered animals and they refused to mate.

There are also transsexual bighorn sheep that never mate with females and in fact, act female in every way.

is psychosis natural?

If I have Homosexual tendencies because I'm an extremly lonely person, is that Natural, I'd like to think so, so wouldn't it be right to explore my sexuality in depth and find put just what I am? :confused: Or would it be wrong? :headbang:

is psychosis natural?

As natural as belief in the supernatural. ;)

If doctors could see the chemical inbalance while the baby is still a fetus, it should be aborted. I'm Atheist and I loathe homosexuals.

Now there is something you don't see every day.

Now there is something you don't see every day.

where did you find that?

I think homosexuality is natural if both chicks are hot.

I'm tired of gay peopl threads. They get old!

Think about it this way: With all the persecution of homosexuals, all the hatred, all the hate crimes, who in their right minds would choose to be gay

Ha! Not only that, what do they gain from becoming gay?

yeah, seriously! the way people talk, i am a waste of tissue because i don't want to breed...i suppose i should just quit my volunteer work, stop studying to help treat epilepsy, and quit paying taxes right now, because obviously i have no purpose if i'm not pumping out the kiddies.

Here's a bumper sticker I saw today:

"When I want to hear the pitter-patter of little feet, I'll put shoes on my dog"

Amen.

Ha! Not only that, what do they gain from becoming gay?

The ability to be turned on by pasty, skinny, nerd-boys like me, maybe? Well, except for lesbians... They're SOL, I guess. <EG>

Here's a bumper sticker I saw today:

"When I want to hear the pitter-patter of little feet, I'll put shoes on my dog"

Amen.Thats good. I like that one :p

I must say though, having a house full of 5 week old (minature breed) puppies makes a nice pitter-patter sound too. So if you want the sound effects, get puppies!!!

I miss my puppies. :(

* Looks at how thread has gone on since last night, decides to run a test.

...

* Moves about thread, poking people, then goes on to ignore all those who shout " Argh, Gay Germs ! " and run away.

:D

Also, " @ " Kyber,

Well, I do - partially - apologise, I was un-aware that english was not your primary language. Its just that " @ " makes many people think your talking " @ = at " them, rather than " with " them.

As in, it seems to place you in a self assumed position of natural superiority, and can be seen by some as really rude in conversation. I hope that helps you in future communication with others in english.

No: it isn´t natural.
That was by the way also the dominant opinion of psychologists and psychiatrist up until the 1970s. Then the left-wingers took over (1968s) and changed the opinion in order to destroy the traditional values of society.
Up until 30 years it was a crime in many countries and illegal. And there was no doubt about it.
But since the 1960s and 70s a moral decline has begun in many western nations. That´s the reason why this is an issue today.

And up untill the 1940's masturbation was referred to as "the vice" and was considered a greater crime against god than homosexuality. This also was outlawed by many countries. The same goes for pornography.
And until around the 1950's wemon showing much more than their faces and ankles was also considered completely immoral and "against god"

Now, here comes my point:
What you see and moral decline is actually social enlightenment and betterment

Maybe someone has already brought this up....but if not....let me ask this:

Is it considered homosexuality when a young boy sees another boy his age naked and becomes curious as to why his penis looks different than his? Is it homosexuality when said boys fondle each other out of curiosity? Is it homosexuality when two 13 or 14 year old scouts who share a tent at summer camp decide to masturbate each other one night? (This is just an example scenario)

In that sence, is homosexuality "natural?" After all, they're just kids, right? They're just growing up.....

Some of you might be repulsed by these questions, but having been a teenage boy at one time in my life, I can certainly tell you that it is not at all uncommon for such things to occur. It happens everyday. So, those who want to call homosexuality "unnatural", let me ask you this:
If you found out your 14 year old son had a friend over one night as a sleepover, and they did what most boys do at that age (masturbate, exploration, etc.), what would you do, and why? Would you have the gonads to call your son unnatural to his face? I mean, after all....you call everyone else who engages in such acts "unnatural", so why not your own son?

Just something to think about for those of you that are WAY against homosexuality of any type. But if I have gotten a bit off of the subject here, my sincere apologies. I just thought it an interesting question, that's all.....

I think the real problem is that people try to define a culture based on what is natural. Earlier someone made a point that some animals eat their offspring - this is, therefore, natural. Many animals eat their own species if they find it dead - so that also must be natural. Doesn't mean either is going to be especiall acceptable in a 'civilised' society.

Similarly, female hyenas have 'fake' penises that are so similar in appearance to males, hyenas were thought for many years to be hermaphroditic.

Bdelloid Rotifers are theoretically heterosexual, but have been reproducing without males for 85 million years.

Dolphins masturbate, and have been observed in the wild trying to copulate with sharks, turtles, seals, eels and even humans.

male honeybees explode after orgasm, leaving their disconnected genitals stuck inside the female.

Drosophila bifurca produces sperm nearly 2.5 inches long - despite the drosophila itself only being about and eigth of an inch long.

It's kind of hard to define natural - since the animal kingdom is filled with exotic sexual interactions - most of which are way out side of human conception - like biting off your mates head, or swallowing your mate in order to copulate, or using your hand (tentacle, actually) to spoon your seed into your lover.

About all we can say is, since every culture has incidence of homosexuality, and since it happens in isolated communities as well as in metropolitan centres, it must be part of our make-up.

The way I figure it - like it or not - that makes it natural.

This isnt about animals. This is about people. So dont justify your point with invalid comparisons. It is an unatural abomination that shouldnt be allowed to continue!

It's not 'unnatural' because it OCCURS IN NATURE.

That's the whole point of all the animal comparisons.

It happens NATURALLY.

And whether you are willing to accept it or not, humans ARE animals. I can believe that *maybe*, humans are animals that are seperate for having 'souls' or 'God's intelligence'. But we ARE still animals biologically. Again, research is your friend.

Dear Lord, why do so many people on the anti-side seem to not read a single thing at all?

It also has a probable biological/societal cause, so maybe you should just get over your squimishness and do some research.

I'm beginning to be more and more grateful for the one or two people on the anti-side that DO bother reading/thinking.

This isnt about animals. This is about people. So dont justify your point with invalid comparisons. It is an unatural abomination that shouldnt be allowed to continue!Erm, sorry dude ... by asking if something is "natural" brings nature into it - thus animals come into it. Hate to break it to you, but we arent the only things on this planet.

Have a look at some of the other argument points for the anti in this thread ... this reply fits in perfectly. In fact, should be applauded.

Invalid comparisons? So you only feel only human homosexuality is wrong? So if your 2 male dogs were going at it in the back yard you would say "isnt that cute" but because it is people its all wrong. WTF? :confused:

before i start sorry for repeating nethign ne body else has said but i am not reading 17 pages i got through 8 and thought that was pretty good.

how can ne one say it is unnatural, when it happens in every race, every religion, and a whole variety of species, and there is no denying that, it is heavily documented.

Not to mention the fact that it keeps occuring in every generation for hundreds of years, it is not some kind of trend, its somethign natural that will always occur in certain humans

This isnt about animals. This is about people. So dont justify your point with invalid comparisons. It is an unatural abomination that shouldnt be allowed to continue!

The comparisons are valid, whether or not you had the ability to see that.

Natural means "of, or arising from, nature". Homosexuality is 'of' nature - since it happens in natural scenarios in natural environments, etc. Not just in rarified communities, ivory towers, and laboratories. Homosexuality also 'arises from' nature - it is not something we take in the form of a pill "Think I'll be Gay tomorrow, where's my Pink Pill?" - it is something that occurs without our conscious interaction. (Unless you really believe that YOU personally DECIDED your gender...?)

I think most christians would also have to agree it 'arises from' nature... otherwise the bible would not be used to proscribe it (incorrectly, as it happens - but we save that for a different thread). If it was not in the nature of man to 'sin' with man, there would be no point proscribing it, surely?

So - science AND religion agree (and how often does THAT happen) that homosexuality is NATURAL.

Personally, I think vociferous bigots who strut around like tin-pot tyrants, saying what can and can't be done are an abomination. And the bible tells us to stone people who perpetrate abominations to death. Not my idea, you understand... I think you're probably lovely.

I don't think so. for a species to survive it must mate. Homosexuals would have died out if it were natural. There is nothing different in the chemical or physical homosexual or straight person, there is nothing different in the brain waves. I think it is just a state of mind that people choose.

On that basis, we should outlaw contraception - all forms, even those accepted by the Catholic Church.
And like other peeps have said, homosexual behaviour has been observed in most of the higher species.

before i start sorry for repeating nethign ne body else has said but i am not reading 17 pages i got through 8 and thought that was pretty good.

how can ne one say it is unnatural, when it happens in every race, every religion, and a whole variety of species, and there is no denying that, it is heavily documented.

Not to mention the fact that it keeps occuring in every generation for hundreds of years, it is not some kind of trend, its somethign natural that will always occur in certain humans

Not just hundreds of years, but certainly at least thousands.

And, not only will it 'always occur in certain humans', there is considerable reason to believe that it will 'always occur - to some extent - in ALL humans'.
Not everyone will act on it. Not everyone will make a lifetime decision based on it, or will make a deliberate lifetime decision to act against it.

Some may express it differently: they may get unaccountably excited when the see their favourite athelete (and I don't mean necessarily sexual excitement), but that is a homo-sexual response, too. They may be a big fan of organised sport, and may follow every game their big burly heroes play, and that would be a homo-sexual response. A girl may feel flattered when another girl 'checks her out', and that would also be a homo-sexual response.

Homosexuality doesn't just mean acts of penetration performed within the same gender... although I suspect most gay-haters would feel more 'secure' if it did. And you know what they say about violent reactions meaning you are 'hiding something'....

This isnt about animals. This is about people. So dont justify your point with invalid comparisons. It is an unatural abomination that shouldnt be allowed to continue!

Exactly how would you propose to stop it? There's only 1 way I can think of, and that way lies Concentration Camps and Gas Ovens.
Read Ditrich Bonhoeffer.