NationStates Jolt Archive

Well this is more about the organisation of religion and not just the belief in a god or gods.

It has come to my attention that there has been a lot of topics regaurding religion, what the bible says etc...so we pbviously have a few believers here.

All I want to know is what is the publics view on religion as a whole. How it works, and wether you feel that religion does a good job in brigging people together and gaining world peace.

Dan

I dislike the premise of religion. I despise organized religion. Evangelism will piss me off like nothing else. I think religious fanaticism is one of the worst evils in existence. I think religion is an excuse to control people, or an explanation for something science can't understand or some science people can't accept.

*Runs from the sound of a thousand galumphing dogmatists, religious and atheist*

Lets first define religion. If we define it as a method of transferring memes without having to convince the reciever of their validity, It is much easier to talk aobut its effect on society. I put all other methods of transferring memes which require the critical thought of the reciever under the heading of "philosophy." Thus it follows that whiler we may preach religion, philosophy must be discussed. Religion is a tool for raising armies, because it discourages skepticism and encourages blind faith. Philosophy is a tool for education because it discourages blind faith, and seeks justification for all beliefs (i.e. skepticism)

Religion is, as I have said before and as I firmly believe, a simple set of tools to deal with questions of the metaphyisical. It is not the end in itself, but a way to a possible end.

I disagree. I believe a religion is a specific set of answers to methphysical questions. For example, the Christian faith offers concrete answers to metaphysical questions, and does not tolerate any individual interpretation. An example of this would be the question "Why does evil exist?" The Christian faith attributes evil to the work of Satan, it does not provide a framework for deciding the answer to such questions, but provides the answer itself. This is what makes Christianity a religion and not a philosophy. Philosophy is much more individualized, leaving the answer to question such as this to be answered by the individual.

Indeed, religion used correctly is even more individualized than philosophy because it seeks to identify a highly personalized and unique connection with whatever divinity may or may not exist, whereas philosophy seeks to explain the function of vast swathes of humanity and human existance. Indeed, it is possible to claim that Philosophy also attempts to do exactly what you claim Religion does and that evidence lies in Communist societies throughout the globe.

I would say that "religion used correctly" IS philosophy, and is thus individualized. It is the philosopher who determines what they seek, and if what they seek is a personal and unique connection with divinity, they are still a philosopher and not a preacher. It is when the philosopher takes his/her connection with divinity and makes it a forgone conclusion, and attepts to convince other sto believe in that divinity on faith, that He/She becomes a preacher.


It has been argued that communist countries are and example of philosophy being used to control the populace. This couldn't be farther from the truth, these governments use fear and ignorance to control their populations Do you think that the average Chinese peasent has the time to understand the philosophies of comunism? Communism as it has been practiced in the past is not a philosophy, it is a religion. Individual questioning and skepticism are not encouraged, and are even supressed. Its goal is not personal knowledge, but subserviance of the population to a dictator.


To say that one is "more valid" is incorrect. Both have their place and their goals and it is unfair to both of them to attempt and force a comparison or a value heirarchy just as it is unfair to say, "Vanilla is inherantly better than chocolate because I like vanilla better."

I agree that to say that philosophy is "more valid" would be misguided. To say that it is more applicable to a modern society, and less vulnerable to subversion, would not. I am not saying that we should throw out spirituality, I am saying that we should think about it in a different way, an individualist way, a philosophical way. The main thing I reject in orgainzed religion is that one person may be "holier" or "closer to god" than another. Thus it follows that to have one person that preaches to the masses is an inferior form of discourse. The only religion I am aware of that does not use this form is the Quakers. For this reason I would define the Quaker religion as a philosophy, and not a religion.

I think religion is good for people who need it to keep them in line, because without it they feel that they can do whatever they want because there isn't some specific set of rules to follow. Although I think that they shoudl be themselves and learn their lessons by trial and error instead as that is what really teaches a persona nd gives them character.

Religion is good for people who are unable to discern their own individual beliefs, because of a lack of imagination or whatever.

I am not sure, but I think that everyones individual beliefs are what is important and group think is detrimental to spirituality. HOw can you know yourself if someone else is telling you who your self is? How can you follow your heart when you are blindly following others orders.

I think that too many people rely on it as some safegaurd for death. Like if you attend church every Sunday and repeat a few words you are sure to get into Heaven.

I think natural spirituality is the way to go. You learn about life thru your own eyes. you decide for yourself what you think negative and positive is. If you are not free to think and be who you feel you are deep down then you are wasting your life in a dogmatic prison.

religion's bad mmmkay, its for hippies and drug abusers. religion is a starting point a gateway drug for meth , heroine and war.

Religious beliefs are the same as any other beliefs and as such there is nothing inherently wrong with them

it's what people do as a result of their beliefs (religious or otherwise) where the problem lies.

It seems that at best most world religions provide a positive psychological framework for life and for dealing with the concept of death.

However, once beliefs and connected behaviours become rigid, once the people in a given religion stop thinking creatively and compassionately, then i feel that religions can do much harm.

(thinks of all the people who have been put to death or maimed or ridiculed in the name of various religions)

religion's bad mmmkay, its for hippies and drug abusers. religion is a starting point a gateway drug for meth , heroine and war.

Well, dumb posts are a foundation on which people call you stupid and flame your post. Enough said about that.

I think religion is good for people because it leads them to the path of doing good works. That is only if they are dedicated to it.

Corrupted Halo, Ernst_Rohm- Take it somewhere else or mods will be informed. Your flaming is justa waste of bandwidth.

religeon can be a good thing for those people who are tolerant of others and who do good deeds.

There are some however who use religeon as a result to be either authoritarian ("religeon is the opiate of the masses" -Marx), racist/descriminating(W.A.S.P supremacy groups), or just nosey old buisybodies (Dot from eat enders.)

so its like chocolate.

Alright look, I really don't care if you believe in religon or not. I myself am a devout Southern Baptist, but I have never tried to convert anyone to my beliefs. I also don't follow the SB rules very closely. I believe that my faith is what's important. Religon is the organized way that you practice your faith, nothing more, nothing less.

And about religon being the cause for wars and persecution, if there was no religon on the Earth do you think these people would have lived in peace and harmony? They would have been hated for their race. Or perhaps their language. Or the fact that they held an area that was desirable to live in. Homo Sapiens is the most cruel, most conniving, most effective predator on the planet. And guess what, religon and morals are what keep us in line. They keep us civil. They keep us...human. Sometimes...

We can't say that religion is intrinsicly bad or good.
When you see that the message of the Christ, a message of peace and love, has been so misinterpreted during history, we can't accuse the Christ for Inquisition. It is not the fault of the Christ, but of his followers and beginning with Saint Paul who transformed the true message of the Christ into a fanatical message for his own purpose of power.
That's the truth : men always search power, and such things.
We can say the same thing with Islam.
Religion is not the problem, but the way it is interpreted by some men for their own purposes of power.
What is bad is not the rightful search of the Truth and God, but the search of power over the men. And that, during dark times of civilisations (like the Middle-Age in Europe for Christianity or our own age for Islam), religion can be used for such a bad task. But, in that case, I don't call it religion but fanatism.

And about religon being the cause for wars and persecution, if there was no religon on the Earth do you think these people would have lived in peace and harmony? religon and morals are what keep us in line. They keep us civil. They keep us...human. Sometimes...

Read my above post, and you will see that I am not argueing that religion should never have existed (I have no idea where you got that notion) Its true, religion has been the main engine of mass control in history. I am suggesting that it is time for a change. By abandoning the dogmatic devotion to unsubstantiated beliefs, and promoting healthy skepticism, metaphysical debate could become the "world religion" though it would stop being a religion by my definition.

Let's face it: without a religion to threaten them with eternal punishment, a lot more people would be murderers, thieves and rapists. Humans are naturally selfish.
Then again, some interpret their religions as if they mean 'destroy everyone else'.

Of course, you can't make sweeping statements about 'religion'. Every religion is different. Anyone who thinks that there is a direct one-one-one conflict between 'religion' and 'atheism' is completely wrong.

Let's face it: without a religion to threaten them with eternal punishment, a lot more people would be murderers, thieves and rapists. Humans are naturally selfish.

I don't think that many people really think "well, I would rape that girl, but I don't want to go to hell." Thats just silly, either they like the idea of raping somebody, or they find it immoral, it has nothing to do with the threat of going to hell. Are humans naturally selfish? I'd say no, not intrinsically, but that is a question for another thread.

Of course, you can't make sweeping statements about 'religion'. Every religion is different. Anyone who thinks that there is a direct one-one-one conflict between 'religion' and 'atheism' is completely wrong.

Who said anything about atheism?

I think that, by itself, religion is a very good concept. It looks quite good on paper -- unity of a community to share their beliefs and practice their faith.

However when you throw realism into the picture the goodness of religion lessesns, when you have fundamentalists and people taking the bible too literally, things like that.

Well, I never expected there to be such a result so quickly. It appears you all believe religiopn can be a good thing. BUt it is the way that it is used. After all relgion has helped start wars. Yet it has also brought people together. Christianity leaves its self open to interrputation, yet only certain interrputations are used.

And of course there are many problems in trying to have a single religion. Christainity is the closest one. But even that has to change for different people.

I find that it has become just a way for people, such as (and I am not picking on them, its just I nknow they are religious) Americans. They say that they live in Gods country, god shall protect them. Surely this is like giving false hope. God will protect me. Yet if he protects everyone why are there problems, god should surely help all this end.

The way I see it is that religion is here to help people to be ok with themselfs. It can help people to realise who they are, what they can do and how they can help others, yet people take this and they change it. they make it horrible they take the idea of peace and everyone working together and make it so no-one can work together unles they are part of the same religion.
The belief in a god is a good thing, however organising this is a bad idea, as soon as you organise something it can be corrupted.

And one more thing as a afer thought. And atheist is someone who does not believe in ANYTHING. there is a better arguement, but i think you will find everyone believes in something, even the belief that god does not exist.


Dan

Sorry about the misunderstanding YJ. I was referring to Dezzan's post, not yours. I should have specified.

Also, the idea of one world religon is frightening. It kinda coincides with my beliefs that a one world religon is a sign of the Apocalypse.

An atheist is someone who does not believe in ANYTHING. there is a better arguement, but i think you will find everyone believes in something, even the belief that god does not exist.

Atheist simply means someone who does not believe in god.

atheism

/aythi-iz’m/

• noun the belief that God does not exist.

— DERIVATIVES atheist noun atheistic adjective atheistical adjective.

— ORIGIN from Greek a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
from the Oxford English Dictionary

Off-topic flaming has been deleted.

Ernst Rohm, you better hope that you have no other warnings on your nation, else you're going bye-bye.

Consider this an official warning to cut the flaming.


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I find that it has become just a way for people, such as (and I am not picking on them, its just I nknow they are religious) Americans. They say that they live in Gods country, god shall protect them. Surely this is like giving false hope. God will protect me. Yet if he protects everyone why are there problems, god should surely help all this end.
Yeah, that's what makes me really angry about this "under god" stuff. Even if you are religious, 'god helps those who help themselves,' right? So what is all that rhetoric about, hmm? Besides, I couldn't ever buy into a god who protects 'believers' at the expense of 'infidels' ... we're all people here.

The way I see it is that religion is here to help people to be ok with themselfs. It can help people to realise who they are, what they can do and how they can help others, yet people take this and they change it. they make it horrible they take the idea of peace and everyone working together and make it so no-one can work together unles they are part of the same religion. Yeah... religion should be all about finding yourself and going on the path to self awareness and self complacency. It shouldnt be about forcing that on anyone else. It shouldnt be about building expensive temples for exclusive worship. It shouldnt be about crusades to crush non believers. It shouldnt be about worship and self abasement... although humility, in moderation, is a commendable thing.

I just seriously dislike the superior mentality that organized religion seems to breed. And before anyone attacks me for this, I know it's a generality. It just seems to be the premise most religions operate on.

Wolfwood was a cool character despite being a priest, so religion isn't all bad. Too bad not more priests are like Wolfwood.

Religion is just a way of dissmissing man's fears about death.

You all have interesting points of view, but I really think that most of you have missed something.

I'm a Jesus Freak. Fanatic, zelot, radical, conservative, whatever you would like to call it, I am that for Christ. I believe the Word of the Bible is true, not just metaphoric (though there are exceptions to that).

I am positive that religion can be incredibly good for people. Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, Joan of Arc and thousands more have accoplished much based on their faith. Be it freedom, civil rights or just betterment for mankind, religion had an incredibly good effect on their lives. All major religions that I have seen are good at the core. Islam encourages it's followers to help the poor as one of their five pillars. Most pegan beliefs have a great reverence for the protection of wildlife and nature. Christianity is really all about love at the very core. Each of these things are encouraging their members to be helpful to the earth.

However, religion is also very dangerous. The same zeal that can drive a Ghandi can also drive a Richard the Lion Hearted or the first four Caliphs of the Muslem Empire. War, genoside and destruction can come out of a powerful member of a religious community whipping the locals into a fury. Their devotion to the religion will bring them thousands of soldiers with no fear of death. It can also make for interpretations that are poisenous (like the Christian/Nazi Church).

I feel religion is good, but in reality, it is a massive power like lava forcing itself from the earth. Where that power is dirrected by pure or hateful hearts determines the outcome.

-R. S. of The Theocracy of United Christiandom

Hmm, there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so?

Yes, religion is just an instituation after all, and every institution has its positive uses and negative ones.

Religion provides comfort guidance and support to its followers, and that is fine. The problem with religion is not the religion itself so much as the interpretation by some of its followers who use it to justify war and other forms of morally disgraceful behaviour.

Religions mostly pursue a spiritual path of goodness and righteousness.
Its only because certain people have abused religion or interpreted it in their own manner to suit their own selfish needs.

Religion helps define morality, it provides people with a sense of good and bad. it gives people a sense of direction in their lives and what happens to them after they die. People like to know that they live a meaningful life and again human beings are inherently religious, look at the ancient greeks, romans to europe of the middle ages, the native americans, and traditional religion in Africa. All points to Man's belief in a Supreme Being.

Religions like chrisitianity, islam and judaism have been manipulated to carry out acts of violence in the name of God or whatever but this is not a true relflection of Religion just like A nation going to war doesn't mean all her citizens are in agreement with that action.

Surely religious leadership should be outlawed? While at work, all religious personnel may only hand out the holy text and say 'Read!'. That would cut through a lot of the problems. Even as an infidel, I find texts like the Quran or Bible groovy to read: Like with any reading, you might just learn something, but don't believe everything you read. Whether you're reading the ten Commandments or the five Pillars, the first few are all about God, not about people who actually need consideration.

As for people who'd do things if religion told them not to, the police should have something to say about that. That is what they're there for. Religion isn't needed to instill morality, I don't go around looting, and pillaging, and ravishing the menfolk... much.

While speaking to a friend of mine who is religious he told me that God gave us free will so that we can think what we like. If this is the case why would he want us to follow these rules. If that was the case why does he not just get rid of free will??? Something for you to think about.

I agree with much that has been said. Religon is a brilliant idea, it tells people not to fear death, or the unknown. This came up in the topic of how to stop terrorism. If you dont fear death you dont mind dieing. But all these things are controlled by humans. And as we have seen, humans are corrupt and selfish doing anything for personal gain. This turns a good thing bad. Just as a child starts of innocent andis then corrupted by the world around it.

And it is because of this that the organiseation of religion has led to problems. The pope...now what a character. He has helped us so much. Is has increased the worlds population by not condoning contraceptives. Bad??

Well theres a few more things to think about for the moment.

Dan

for the individual, religion is a horrible condition not much different from drug addiction. for people like me, who use the willfull idiocy of believers to more easily rise to power, religion is a great thing :).

religion is both good AND bad

its good ebcause it gives the people controlled by emotional thought hope and something to follow because they are basically too dubm to think for themselves

bad because them being too dubm to think for themselves they can easily be manipulated by people speaking "for their religion"

Three examples:

The Crusades
The Inquisition
9-11

Not to mention the pope's contraceptive ban. That is a pretty massive contribution to the spread of AIDS (although they've tried to blame that on homosexuals, unsuccessfully) and the overpopulation of the third world.

Here are some groups that believe they are doing god's bidding:

Hamas
The Ku Klux Klan
Al Qaeda
Islamic Jihad
Hizbollah
The Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (IG)
Gamaya Islamiya
Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
The Army of god
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)

And many more.

I'm thoroughly against organized religon.

It is good and bad. People can be to religous and impose the belifs on others example how they pushed prohibition. You can be to un-religous just by lying and cheating but that is still not as bad as being to religous.

If you want the public's view of religeon, then you had better go somewhere else. The way that religeous people in the game are always portrayed as irrational zealots should tell you something about the views here.

The public as a whole, are largely religeous. the government is not to condone any one religeon over another, but may neither condone atheism or agnostacism.

religeon today is no longer forced upon a person by the government, and therefore, is a choice made by the religeous person. although many people do hold to beliefs based on their parent's decisions, they still make a conscious decision to believe what they believe.

The opinions of this forum are rather mideval- Pre Martin Luthor. How many people in the forum have said that they could use religeon to rise to power? How many people on this forum hold political power of any kind?

Religeous people nowdays aren't the sheep they were in the middle ages. They have options, and believe what they think is right, then, having decided become however pious they believe they should be.

Now, if you want to tell people what to think, then your business is in journalism...

Here in the UK there are laws that still exist which mean i have to be religious. But these laws are no longer taken any notice of. yet they are there, they may always be there. If a government gets into power and wants it be be as it was. they can.

I will admitt people in these forums are not the best to talk to. Most of the Yanks like to blow stuff up. Not all of them but the ones which have said they are american have. There are religious people here though. And those are the opinions I am after. I have posted this kinda post in many different forums, the response is astounding, and the views MANY.

The fact is people dont like what religion as it is now. It has become so inflexable that it wont admit gay marriage. I is a miricle they let in a gay preist. The Times they are a changing. And unless religion follows it could end up dead as a dodo.

Dan