NationStates Jolt Archive

Kerry accused American boys of war crimes. He in fact admitted to having commited these crime. Why is he so proud of his service?

While he was in command of SB44, Kerry operated without prudence in a free fire zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year old boy, an old man, and several South Vietnamese soldiers. Why has he never apologized for his anti war activities? He called us basically murderers, and savages. Now he is so proud of his military service that he can't help but say he was in Vietnam whenever possible.

Now to the subject of his questionable medals. Many of us vets were wounded and never got our Purple Hearts. His wounds were described as basically scratches, but because he was "wounded" 3 times he was able to ask his CO for reassignment (after only 3 months in country). His CO signed his reassignment and he went home. His Silver Star came after he hot doggedly beached his PCF (which was against policy) after a B40 rocket shot from shore. To his surprise a VC sprang up from a hole some 10 feet away and ran. The machine gunner fired and wounded the enemy as he darted behind a hootch. The gunner then fired about 50 rounds into the hootch before Kerry leaped off of the boat (another violation:you don't leave the boat) and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to the wounded VC. Essentially murdering the poor guy. Politics were at work in the military and he received a Silver Star. Most grunts did more then this every patrol. His Bronze Star was received after a mine exploded near his boat giving him a scratch.

Then you have his post military history. It includes being a member of VVAW. Where he got to rub elbows with Hanoi Jane. Led massive pro-Hanoi rallies, threw medals over the White House fence. The worst was his testimony on April 23, 1971 when he gave a speech which painted American GI's as so brutal that you could compare them with those of the SS. For that he should never be forgiven. I never committed atrocities, nor had I seen the tortures he said occured on a regular basis. He needs to apologize to each of us who were spat on and insulted at the airports on our return home. Being called baby killers, nazis', and other obsene names. Finally his chairmanship of the POW/MIA affairs committe, where he basically sold out any hopes of finding any remains or actual POW/MIA's. No one but Kerry tried harder to bury the POW/MIA issue, in return for a huge contract for his cousin in charge of Colliers International. This contract worth billions made Colliers the exclusive real estate agent for Vietnam.

I don't care if you vote for him or anybody else, it's your call. I'm just trying to tell how frustrated we vets are when we hear how he is glorified as a hero. I'm not for Bush either, he is a coward who should come clean about his record. He should be booted out of office. I'm a libertarian and since we have a 2 party system I'm wasting my vote, but I can't vote for either of these losers. Let's find people who really want to be good for America and vote them in.

You Vietnam vets really know how to hold a grudge, dontcha?

You Vietnam vets really know how to hold a grudge, dontcha?

Well when he continues to bring up the fact that he is a hero, then yes I do hold a grudge. Three outstanding men from my squad (388th TFW 17th Wild Weasel Squadran) who were shot done and reported MIA were never released, nor were the remains accounted for. He had his chance to bring some closure to families, but instead he buried the whole issue.

It took me 6 years just to be able to sit in a dark movie theater again - not because of the dark, but because of the unseen people in the theater - and 3 years to not jump a little whenever a door was slammed. No Purple Heart for me, either. Is not post-trauma a "war wound"?

War is a horrible beast and an unspeakably ugly thing.

But, it doesn't matter. I think you're picking nits, to be honest. I've seen a lot of people earn medals and receive citations that made me think, "Huh? Why the hell is he getting that?!" But we're just the grunts and, therefore, we don't make the rules. Kerry was an officer, remember? NCOs work for a living ... once you get the bars, you have carte blanche when it comes to regs.

You should know that.

However, it doesn't make Kerry any less of a soldier. He did what he thought was right an necessary at the time. He fought and he did what he could to help his men. We may look back and say that he got more than he deserved, but that's society. Look at how many accolades and statues and "They're America's greatest heros!" speeches we see about the NY Fire dept. and Police dept. when they were simply doing their jobs on 9/11.

Kerry did his job, he was a soldier. He got some medals for it ... great ... it doesn't, however, cheapen anything that the other soldiers fought and died for, does it? No, of course it doesn't.

Although, to be honest with you, if we were to base who should be President solely on military record, I still have to go with Kerry. Not because of the medals and not because of the "hero" stories, but because he fought. I've heard those who served alongside him, his NCOs, speak on his behalf and share stories of Kerry in the war. All I hear from Bush's "brothers in arms" is, "He could do six lines of coke and still get it up for the hookers in Houston! Woooooooooooooooo!"

*shrug*

hannibal, thats from Vietnam vets against kerry right? Great website. Love it. Especially the pictures of Kerry being dragged away by the cops in hand cuffs. thats great.

Do Vietnam veterans suffer from anything equivalent to Gulf War Syndrome?

Give me a break. This same thing has been done so many times by conservatives looking for any excuse to soil Kerry's name. The republicans have had to resort to dirty tricks because they know they can't win any other way.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

Do Vietnam veterans suffer from anything equivalent to Gulf War Syndrome?

I doubt it ... Vietnam vets do have other things, though. GWS comes from the pesticide baths+raw oil in drinking water+antibiotic coctails+experimental bioweapon vaccines. I don't think they were doing that in Vietnam.

Actually, it has been reported that Agent Orange has caused cancer among many veterans.

Agent Orange was a herbicide used to kill areas of jungle so that we could be able to see the ground areas where we couldn't see before.

DHomme, you're a Micheal Moore fan, aren't you? Your brainwashing is leaking all over the place.

Actually, it has been reported that Agent Orange has caused cancer among many veterans.

Agent Orange was a herbicide used to kill areas of jungle so that we could be able to see the ground areas where we couldn't see before.

DHomme, you're a Micheal Moore fan, aren't you? Your brainwashing is leaking all over the place.

Did you know the Goverment didn't even acknowledge Agent Orange? When they started too, they even tried to suggest that the Carcenogen(sp) level was not that high.

I knew a guy that was test sprayed with it. He was told they needed people to "visually monitor" the affects on the growth. He was racked with Cancer. Many of us kept telling him that he should join the suits against the goverment but he was a good little soldier and felt it was just part of his duty.

So tell me? How does referencing a site that investigates false claims constitue Moore Brainwashing?

Anybody that wants to read a good book about the Army and Agent Orange. "Waiting for an army to die"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0932020682/103-4504893-6195058?v=glance

Just shut up.

This forum is not the place to discuss real politics.

And anyway, the way Americans slander their own politicians is really disgusting in European eyes.

For starters, at least this part of your post:

While he was in command of SB44, Kerry operated without prudence in a free fire zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year old boy, an old man, and several South Vietnamese soldiers. Why has he never apologized for his anti war activities? He called us basically murderers, and savages. Now he is so proud of his military service that he can't help but say he was in Vietnam whenever possible.


Is a direct copy and paste from a Vietnam Vets against Kerry site that has been copied all over the internet, and as near as I can tell is made without foundation. The term "without prudence" is deliberately inflamatory and has not been supported by any facts that I am aware of, and was certainly not the position of his crew who support him to this day, or his superiors who decorated him for his actions. The same can be said of the term "hot dogged" later in your post which is another crib of the same material.

While I equally respect your right to have opinions on Mr. Kerry, it would be nice if you could actually articulate them yourself rather than just edit the same diatribe that has been floating around the internet for months and presenting it as your own.



-Z-

I doubt it ... Vietnam vets do have other things, though. GWS comes from the pesticide baths+raw oil in drinking water+antibiotic coctails+experimental bioweapon vaccines. I don't think they were doing that in Vietnam.
it also been theorized that it was result of depleated uranium rounds, which vaporize on impact, putting radioactive dust in the air and water

Just shut up.

This forum is not the place to discuss real politics.

And anyway, the way Americans slander their own politicians is really disgusting in European eyes.

You shut up. You think most Americans give a rat's ass how "European eyes" view us. We don't.

As for Kerry, it shows that he is a purely political animal. He joined the Navy and asked for Swift Boats so he could be like his hero, JFK. (Incidently, JFK's military claim to fame was to have his PT boat rammed by a Japanese destroyer and ended up missing in action for a few days). He tried to rack up as many medals as he could and left as soon as possible. Getting back to the States, he saw which way the political wind was blowing. Being a war hero in the early seventies was not the way to make a name for yourself. However, being an anti-war hero and rubbing elbows with the likes of Hanoi Jane Fonda was. The medals he supposed "earned" he threw back on the steps of the Capital. Only later did it come out that the medals that he threw we not his and his were framed and hanging on the wall of his Senate office. I do not agree with this man's political views but more importantly, I do not respect him.

Just shut up.

This forum is not the place to discuss real politics.

And anyway, the way Americans slander their own politicians is really disgusting in European eyes.

Yes, and the way Europeans slander US politicians is extremely disgusting too. We hold that right highest of all because when we were under European control we were prohibited from speaking ill of the King.

Kerry was in a war risking his life and saving his fellow soldiers when he could.

He was horrified by war and spoke against it. ANd he has expressed sorrow for the civilian casualties.

And he has every right to condemn barbaric practices, and if anyone has a right to protest a war, it's someone who has fought in it.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also- From what I have seen, heard and read, GWS is from teh use of depleted uranium. Which they shouldnt have used AGAIN in this Iraq war, but they did anyway. Nice way to endanger the troops eh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, and how do his former commanders feel about his ability to become Commander in Chief? Not ONE thinks he is fit for that honor....not one.

http://home.rochester.rr.com/bitheads/images/arrested.jpg

pretty funny

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm
I also recomend that site.

Kerry was in a war risking his life and saving his fellow soldiers when he could.

Saving their lives? He beached their patrol boat in order to shoot a half dead , weaponsless vietcong man in the face. leaving the boat stranded while he went and broke procedure to administer the coup de grace

He was horrified by war and spoke against it. ANd he has expressed sorrow for the civilian casualties.

Thats why he shot vietnamese civilians right? because he was terrified of war and expressed sorrow for civi casualties?


And he has every right to condemn barbaric practices, and if anyone has a right to protest a war, it's someone who has fought in it. And someone who has killed innocent civis himself right? He saw it done to others, and participated. His protesting the war has to be his first act of flip-flopping. He found out this was popular to do, so he joined in.

John Kerry is nothing more than a Yaley communist. Yes, he has 3 purple hearts, but HE DID NOT EARN THEM.
For those of you who have never been in the military let me tell you how you get a purple heart--- from being "wounded in combat", now that wound can be anything from a scratch to being killed. For the most part good soldiers will not accept it or even apply for it if its a minor scratch. Kerry has no shrapnel in his body nor was he ever shot. Second off being a Lt he was able to sign off on the documents to get them which eventolly allowed him to cut his service in vietnam short.
Kerry then came back to the US and spit in the face of this nation. He blaimed the war on Nixon, however Nixion ended the war which actually started under Kennedy.
If you don't believe Kerry is a commie- read his book "The new Soldier" it basically is a love fest for stlain, mao and ho chi minh

Kerry accused American boys of war crimes. He in fact admitted to having commited these crime. Why is he so proud of his service?

While he was in command of SB44, Kerry operated without prudence in a free fire zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year old boy, an old man, and several South Vietnamese soldiers. Why has he never apologized for his anti war activities? He called us basically murderers, and savages. Now he is so proud of his military service that he can't help but say he was in Vietnam whenever possible.

Now to the subject of his questionable medals. Many of us vets were wounded and never got our Purple Hearts. His wounds were described as basically scratches, but because he was "wounded" 3 times he was able to ask his CO for reassignment (after only 3 months in country). His CO signed his reassignment and he went home. His Silver Star came after he hot doggedly beached his PCF (which was against policy) after a B40 rocket shot from shore. To his surprise a VC sprang up from a hole some 10 feet away and ran. The machine gunner fired and wounded the enemy as he darted behind a hootch. The gunner then fired about 50 rounds into the hootch before Kerry leaped off of the boat (another violation:you don't leave the boat) and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to the wounded VC. Essentially murdering the poor guy. Politics were at work in the military and he received a Silver Star. Most grunts did more then this every patrol. His Bronze Star was received after a mine exploded near his boat giving him a scratch.

Then you have his post military history. It includes being a member of VVAW. Where he got to rub elbows with Hanoi Jane. Led massive pro-Hanoi rallies, threw medals over the White House fence. The worst was his testimony on April 23, 1971 when he gave a speech which painted American GI's as so brutal that you could compare them with those of the SS. For that he should never be forgiven. I never committed atrocities, nor had I seen the tortures he said occured on a regular basis. He needs to apologize to each of us who were spat on and insulted at the airports on our return home. Being called baby killers, nazis', and other obsene names. Finally his chairmanship of the POW/MIA affairs committe, where he basically sold out any hopes of finding any remains or actual POW/MIA's. No one but Kerry tried harder to bury the POW/MIA issue, in return for a huge contract for his cousin in charge of Colliers International. This contract worth billions made Colliers the exclusive real estate agent for Vietnam.

I don't care if you vote for him or anybody else, it's your call. I'm just trying to tell how frustrated we vets are when we hear how he is glorified as a hero. I'm not for Bush either, he is a coward who should come clean about his record. He should be booted out of office. I'm a libertarian and since we have a 2 party system I'm wasting my vote, but I can't vote for either of these losers. Let's find people who really want to be good for America and vote them in.
This article is in error. Parts taken from the Boston Globe, and twisted? Read the actual story, it has all the answers:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=6638999

Kerry accused American boys of war crimes. He in fact admitted to having commited these crime. Why is he so proud of his service?

While he was in command of SB44, Kerry operated without prudence in a free fire zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year old boy, an old man, and several South Vietnamese soldiers. Why has he never apologized for his anti war activities? He called us basically murderers, and savages. Now he is so proud of his military service that he can't help but say he was in Vietnam whenever possible.

Now to the subject of his questionable medals. Many of us vets were wounded and never got our Purple Hearts. His wounds were described as basically scratches, but because he was "wounded" 3 times he was able to ask his CO for reassignment (after only 3 months in country). His CO signed his reassignment and he went home. His Silver Star came after he hot doggedly beached his PCF (which was against policy) after a B40 rocket shot from shore. To his surprise a VC sprang up from a hole some 10 feet away and ran. The machine gunner fired and wounded the enemy as he darted behind a hootch. The gunner then fired about 50 rounds into the hootch before Kerry leaped off of the boat (another violation:you don't leave the boat) and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to the wounded VC. Essentially murdering the poor guy. Politics were at work in the military and he received a Silver Star. Most grunts did more then this every patrol. His Bronze Star was received after a mine exploded near his boat giving him a scratch.

Then you have his post military history. It includes being a member of VVAW. Where he got to rub elbows with Hanoi Jane. Led massive pro-Hanoi rallies, threw medals over the White House fence. The worst was his testimony on April 23, 1971 when he gave a speech which painted American GI's as so brutal that you could compare them with those of the SS. For that he should never be forgiven. I never committed atrocities, nor had I seen the tortures he said occured on a regular basis. He needs to apologize to each of us who were spat on and insulted at the airports on our return home. Being called baby killers, nazis', and other obsene names. Finally his chairmanship of the POW/MIA affairs committe, where he basically sold out any hopes of finding any remains or actual POW/MIA's. No one but Kerry tried harder to bury the POW/MIA issue, in return for a huge contract for his cousin in charge of Colliers International. This contract worth billions made Colliers the exclusive real estate agent for Vietnam.

I don't care if you vote for him or anybody else, it's your call. I'm just trying to tell how frustrated we vets are when we hear how he is glorified as a hero. I'm not for Bush either, he is a coward who should come clean about his record. He should be booted out of office. I'm a libertarian and since we have a 2 party system I'm wasting my vote, but I can't vote for either of these losers. Let's find people who really want to be good for America and vote them in.


Don't be too suprised by Kerry, the boys who massacred all those people at My Lai were declared heros by themselves and the government, even after the truth about what happened there surfaced.

Yes, and how do his former commanders feel about his ability to become Commander in Chief? Not ONE thinks he is fit for that honor....not one.
Where are you getting this? You think they really support Bush in that position instead?

Where are you getting this? You think they really support Bush in that position instead?


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/05/05/kerrys_commanders_speak_out_against_him/

Right there in Kerry's hometown newspaper. ;)

Psst. Hey buddy.

Did you know the Shrub went to Yale as well?

Also the medal claims you made is a freqented lie.

Look it up on snopes.com

John Kerry is nothing more than a Yaley communist. Yes, he has 3 purple hearts, but HE DID NOT EARN THEM.
For those of you who have never been in the military let me tell you how you get a purple heart--- from being "wounded in combat", now that wound can be anything from a scratch to being killed. For the most part good soldiers will not accept it or even apply for it if its a minor scratch. Kerry has no shrapnel in his body nor was he ever shot. Second off being a Lt he was able to sign off on the documents to get them which eventolly allowed him to cut his service in vietnam short.
Kerry then came back to the US and spit in the face of this nation. He blaimed the war on Nixon, however Nixion ended the war which actually started under Kennedy.
If you don't believe Kerry is a commie- read his book "The new Soldier" it basically is a love fest for stlain, mao and ho chi minh

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/05/05/kerrys_commanders_speak_out_against_him/

Right there in Kerry's hometown newspaper. ;)
That hardly consists of every one of them.

Besides, "This is not a political issue; it is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty, and trust -- all absolute tenets of command" can be brought to bear against any politician. Like I said, Bush is hardly better; in fact he's much worse in terms of accountabillity, honesty, and especially trust.

Well, the men who commanded him knew more about his leadership ability than anyone else. Plus I find it amusing that Kerry once said there were NO heros in Vietnam....now he purports himself to be a hero. Bush is not perfect, and I will not vote for either of them, but Kerry is just too goofy and has too much controversy about himself to become president.

Actually, it has been reported that Agent Orange has caused cancer among many veterans.

Agent Orange was a herbicide used to kill areas of jungle so that we could be able to see the ground areas where we couldn't see before.

DHomme, you're a Micheal Moore fan, aren't you? Your brainwashing is leaking all over the place.
Shut up, redneck.
I'm not a Moore fan but I do think he makes a few good points. His techniques do disturb me sometimes, like hastling an 80 year old man who now is suffering from alsheimers.
No, that is an urban legend site, which does actual investigative reporting, with no political spin. It doesn't really suprise me that somebody has instantly decided it was liberal

Can we all drop the ad hominem?

Plus I find it amusing that Kerry once said there were NO heros in Vietnam....now he purports himself to be a hero. I never hear Kerry say that about himself, others say it about him sure but he doesn't go around calling himself a 'war hero'.

Bush is not perfect, and I will not vote for either of them, but Kerry is just too goofy and has too much controversy about himself to become president.
Yeah, but whether you vote for them or not, one will become president. I like Kerry, but I also think it makes sense to choose the 'lesser of two evils' if you feel that's your only option.

Yeah, but whether you vote for them or not, one will become president. I like Kerry, but I also think it makes sense to choose the 'lesser of two evils' if you feel that's your only option.

THAT is our biggest problem. Our government has been hijacked by the two party system and we have to choose the "lessor of two evils."

THAT is our biggest problem. Our government has been hijacked by the two party system and we have to choose the "lessor of two evils."
Fine, but how is not voting going to fix that?

Oh, and nothing's been "hijacked".. it's always been a two party system. Not always the same two parties, but always two parties.

Fine, but how is not voting going to fix that?

Oh, and nothing's been "hijacked".. it's always been a two party system. Not always the same two parties, but always two parties.

Not true, there are many other parties. Try getting on the ballot though. The DEMS and REPS have made it all but impossible to do so. So many signatures needed...proof that those who signed are NOT registered DEMS or REPS OR voted in a primary where party affiliation is not required. If THAT is not hijacking the system, what is? ANY parties candidates should be allowed on the ballot...period. The DEMS and REPS don't have to have signatures or petition to get on the ballot....

I do vote, just usually for anyone other than the DEMS or REPS. This year I am leaning toward Bush though. Kerry just scares the hell out of me with his record of voting to raise taxes.

Even if this guy is cutting and pasting, he's telling the truth.

Who is cutting and pasting?

For starters, at least this part of your post:

While he was in command of SB44, Kerry operated without prudence in a free fire zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year old boy, an old man, and several South Vietnamese soldiers. Why has he never apologized for his anti war activities? He called us basically murderers, and savages. Now he is so proud of his military service that he can't help but say he was in Vietnam whenever possible.


Is a direct copy and paste from a Vietnam Vets against Kerry site that has been copied all over the internet, and as near as I can tell is made without foundation. The term "without prudence" is deliberately inflamatory and has not been supported by any facts that I am aware of, and was certainly not the position of his crew who support him to this day, or his superiors who decorated him for his actions. The same can be said of the term "hot dogged" later in your post which is another crib of the same material.

While I equally respect your right to have opinions on Mr. Kerry, it would be nice if you could actually articulate them yourself rather than just edit the same diatribe that has been floating around the internet for months and presenting it as your own.



-Z-

Not everyone in his crew support him. He served on more then 1 boat remember. Sure a small bunch of his supporters are jetted around the nation to boast of his exploits. The majority of people who served with him do not support him. As a veteran I have a serious issue with his claims, and his service record. My ideas are the same as many Vietnam Vets. When we are thought of as baby killers, addicts, torturers, animals because of what Kerry was saying about us we should have the right to defend our good names.

Torture, war crimes! Kerry was in the Navy, when exactly did he see torture, from his boat? The true war crimes were committed by the VC, NVA. Have you ever seen what VC troops would do to villages that were friendly to American troops. Until you have then don't talk to us about the "war crimes" reminiscent of Genghis Khan. The only thing some vets can think about when Kerry comes to mind is his basically pro-Hanoi stance. He is a phoney, opportunistic, liar. Sure certain things did happen, but on the whole most soldiers were honorable, scared kids, who just wanted to get home. He was a hot dog, trying only to advance himself, not thinking too much about his crew. Thomas Wright who served as the OIC reported that he had a hard time making Kerry follow orders. Oriented towards his personal goals and not those of the unit.

Why won't Kerry sign form 180, which would release hismilitary records. Does he have something to hide. Since he is always bringing up his service, why not let the American people see his files. I know you'll say what about Bush, but this only about Kerry. As I arrived back in the US after my service, I would have liked to have thanked Kerry for having giving fuel to the protestors who spat on me and insulted myself, my wife, and children who happened to be at the airport to meet me.

If you want more info check out SwiftVets.com for most his "record"

Not everyone in his crew support him. He served on more then 1 boat remember. Sure a small bunch of his supporters are jetted

*snip*


Maybe it's just me but I read that site and it sounds more like a bunch of guys that are pissed off that he spoke out against the war.

Especially when you hear phrases like: "band of very few brothers" "verterns for truth"

Never mind the fact they are a Political Action Commitee.

A question: If they were there with him, then why do they need his records?

Who backs these guys? RNC?

The PAC is what I have problems. If they didn't have that then I would belive their sincerity more.

Maybe it's just me but I read that site and it sounds more like a bunch of guys that are pissed off that he spoke out against the war.

Especially when you hear phrases like: "band of very few brothers" "verterns for truth"

Never mind the fact they are a Political Action Commitee.

A question: If they were there with him, then why do they need his records?

Who backs these guys? RNC?

The PAC is what I have problems. If they didn't have that then I would belive their sincerity more.

It's like the statements previously mentioned that all of his commanders now object to him.

Strange, they all gave him glowing reviews and fitness reports as a soldier.... the released records make that VERY clear. If they now object to him then it was his political opinions upon his return that they objected to and by then tried to denigrate his service record they are either liars now or were liars then when they evaluated him. Either option does not exactly reflect well on their character.

-Z-

Err...like Clinton pointed out...he skipped out on the war and so did GWBush...

Kerry (as Clinton pointed out) could have, but did he? No. So you may not like what he actually did during the war, but seriously, compare him to his counterparts. He IS a hero compared to what Bush and Clinton did in Vietnam.

I find it abhorrent when people call arch-traitor Kerry a 'war hero.' He gave enormous moral aid to the enemy- hell, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam HONORS him in one of it's museums and credits him with helping them win the war- he falsely accused fellow vets of war crimes and atrocities (yes, some vets did do these things, but the extremely vast majority of them did not); associated with and marched alongside radical communists and anarchists; and, years later, helped cover up evidence that there are still live prisoners being held in Southeast Asia. He is an odious, malodorous, devious, cruel, heartless, rabidly anti-American, radically internationalistic, pro-communist, sinister son of a bitch and is unfit to be commander-in-chief. But don't take my word for it; take the veterans' words for it. After all, nearly every veteran loathes the sick bastard. I'll throw a bunch of links at you:

www.hanoijohnkerry.com
and
http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/links.html which has links to the following:

Beat Kerry 2004
Crush Kerry
Dirty Kerry
I Hate John Kerry
John F. Kerry Sucks
John F'n Kerry
John Kerry Truth
Kerry Lied
Kerry Quotes
No Kerry
No To Kerry
POW/MIA Families Against John Kerry
Protest Warrior -- (link to a special link page)
Senator FlipFlop
Socialist Kerry
Useful Fools
Vets Against Kerry
Vets Truth
Vietnam Special Forces Veterans Against Kerry
Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry
Wintersoldier.com

Granted, not all of these sites are made by vets, but they're all worth a look. As much as I dislike Bush, I absolutely despise Kerry. I'd rather blow my head off with a shotgun than vote for him.

It's like the statements previously mentioned that all of his commanders now object to him.

Strange, they all gave him glowing reviews and fitness reports as a soldier.... the released records make that VERY clear. If they now object to him then it was his political opinions upon his return that they objected to and by then tried to denigrate his service record they are either liars now or were liars then when they evaluated him. Either option does not exactly reflect well on their character.

-Z-

I am starting to wonder myself. Especially when their front page photo was created by these guys: http://www.iowapresidentialwatch.com/

I also like in the FAQ that they feel they don't have to release their records. Why not gentlemen? If Kerry is a scumbag and you guys have stirling records; it only adds fire to your claims.

Ah well.....

I find it abhorrent when people call arch-traitor Kerry a 'war hero.' He gave enormous moral aid to the enemy- hell, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam HONORS him in one of it's museums and credits him with helping them win the war-

*SNIP*

Granted, not all of these sites are made by vets, but they're all worth a look. As much as I dislike Bush, I absolutely despise Kerry. I'd rather blow my head off with a shotgun than vote for him.

I have seen this list before and the sites I visted are more about him speaking out against that F'd up war.

It's like the statements previously mentioned that all of his commanders now object to him.

Strange, they all gave him glowing reviews and fitness reports as a soldier.... the released records make that VERY clear. If they now object to him then it was his political opinions upon his return that they objected to and by then tried to denigrate his service record they are either liars now or were liars then when they evaluated him. Either option does not exactly reflect well on their character.

-Z-

Giving him glowing reports for being a boat commander is a lot different from being COMMANDER IN CHIEF. Being good at one thing does not make you fit to do something else. The BEST fisherman would hardly make the BEST fireman for an example.

Giving him glowing reports for being a boat commander is a lot different from being COMMANDER IN CHIEF. Being good at one thing does not make you fit to do something else. The BEST fisherman would hardly make the BEST fireman for an example.
1) Commander in Chief is not, nor should it be, the only role of the President of the United States.
2) George Bush Sr. believed he would make a better president than Dukakis because he served his country.
3) I think just about anyone could make a better Commander in Chief than George W. Bush, but that is personal opinion.
4) George W. Bush has had a chance at being Commander in Chief and has failed our country. Kerry has not had a chance. If he also fails our country, I will vote for Jeb in 2008.

Now to the subject of his questionable medals. Many of us vets were wounded and never got our Purple Hearts. His wounds were described as basically scratches, but because he was "wounded" 3 times he was able to ask his CO for reassignment (after only 3 months in country). His CO signed his reassignment and he went home. His Silver Star came after he hot doggedly beached his PCF (which was against policy) after a B40 rocket shot from shore. To his surprise a VC sprang up from a hole some 10 feet away and ran. The machine gunner fired and wounded the enemy as he darted behind a hootch. The gunner then fired about 50 rounds into the hootch before Kerry leaped off of the boat (another violation:you don't leave the boat) and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to the wounded VC. Essentially murdering the poor guy. Politics were at work in the military and he received a Silver Star. Most grunts did more then this every patrol. His Bronze Star was received after a mine exploded near his boat giving him a scratch.

From the New Yorker, July 26: "Few voters knew the story of how he won his Bronze Star for saving a man's life until that man, a lifelong Republican named Jim Rassman, showed up in Des Moines during the last days of the Iowa primary race and returned the favor, helping to save Kerry's political life by describing how Kerry, wounded and under fire, pulled him, hand over hand, from the water after he'd been blown off another American boat. Even then, Kerry said almost nothing about the incident, leaving the talking to Rassman, with whom he'd had no contact in the intervening thirty-five years. He also resists speaking publicly about the incident that won him the Silver Star, but his surviving crewmates have told how, when they were ambushed by a Vietcong guerilla firing rockets from the riverbank, Kerry made an instantaneous decision that evasive action was impossible, turned his boat directly into the fire, beached it, and leaped ashore, to the astonishment of the man with the rocket launcher, who popped up from his spider hole and fled. Kerry chased him and killed him. Navy men were not supposed to leave their ships during combat, and before recommending Kerry for the medal his commanding officer quipped that he wasn't sure whether he should court-martial him instead."

You shut up. You think most Americans give a rat's ass how "European eyes" view us. We don't.

As for Kerry, it shows that he is a purely political animal. He joined the Navy and asked for Swift Boats so he could be like his hero, JFK. (Incidently, JFK's military claim to fame was to have his PT boat rammed by a Japanese destroyer and ended up missing in action for a few days). He tried to rack up as many medals as he could and left as soon as possible. Getting back to the States, he saw which way the political wind was blowing. Being a war hero in the early seventies was not the way to make a name for yourself. However, being an anti-war hero and rubbing elbows with the likes of Hanoi Jane Fonda was. The medals he supposed "earned" he threw back on the steps of the Capital. Only later did it come out that the medals that he threw we not his and his were framed and hanging on the wall of his Senate office. I do not agree with this man's political views but more importantly, I do not respect him.


This is a contemptibly cynical take on the exploits of one American soldier who decided he wanted to do something with his life following Vietnam. Kerry signed up for the Swift Boats because he didn't think they'd see battle. Can you blame him? By the time he got into action they were, indeed, right in the middle of things.

Why do people insist on condemning the post-war viewpoints of a soldier? Who else could better stand up for those still wallowing in that quagmire? Who else has more of a right to an honest dissent from the policy wherein he witnessed the vagaries of war?

And how, pray tell, does someone "try to rack up as many medals" as they can without doing something that, you know, involves putting one's self in harm's way? on behalf of their fellow soldiers? on behalf of their country?

Can you wrap your brain around how ridiculously cynical that attitude is?

1) Commander in Chief is not, nor should it be, the only role of the President of the United States.
2) George Bush Sr. believed he would make a better president than Dukakis because he served his country.
3) I think just about anyone could make a better Commander in Chief than George W. Bush, but that is personal opinion.
4) George W. Bush has had a chance at being Commander in Chief and has failed our country. Kerry has not had a chance. If he also fails our country, I will vote for Jeb in 2008.
Why is it my posts are often ignored...?

This is a contemptibly cynical take on the exploits of one American soldier who decided he wanted to do something with his life following Vietnam. Kerry signed up for the Swift Boats because he didn't think they'd see battle. Can you blame him? By the time he got into action they were, indeed, right in the middle of things.

Why do people insist on condemning the post-war viewpoints of a soldier? Who else could better stand up for those still wallowing in that quagmire? Who else has more of a right to an honest dissent from the policy wherein he witnessed the vagaries of war?

And how, pray tell, does someone "try to rack up as many medals" as they can without doing something that, you know, involves putting one's self in harm's way? on behalf of their fellow soldiers? on behalf of their country?

Can you wrap your brain around how ridiculously cynical that attitude is?

No I can't blame him for not wanting to see action, there was nothing wrong with that. I volunteered for the 388th TFW 19th squadron Wilid Weasels, which saw plenty of action, because I was young and adventurous. We had some of the highest casualty rates of any unit in the Air Force. Knowing then what I do now I would still have volunteered. Honestly whatever Kerry did during the war is water under the bridge, but if he insists on bringing it up then we as vets have the right to question his actions.

Anyway war-time activities were trumped by his post war actions, he had his own agenda of political office when he enlisted in the Navy. His post war viewpoints were horribly indecent. Saying we tortured prisoners with telephone wires attached to their genitals and turning on the power, raping innocent civilians, bayoneting babies, razing villages, cutting off of ears, heads, genitals. I seriously doubt he actually witnessed any of these things, as he was a Navy man who was on a boat, not on routine patrols in land. Most likely his drug addicted anti war friends were feeding him these charges and he ran with them. When he insulted us as being murderers, he lost all credibility. Why did democratic aides scramble to find and destroy any copies of his anti war book "New Soldier". Why does no one in the media ask these question?

Kerry needs to apologize to all of us and to the families of MIA/POWs.

From the New Yorker, July 26: "Few voters knew the story of how he won his Bronze Star for saving a man's life until that man, a lifelong Republican named Jim Rassman, showed up in Des Moines during the last days of the Iowa primary race and returned the favor, helping to save Kerry's political life by describing how Kerry, wounded and under fire, pulled him, hand over hand, from the water after he'd been blown off another American boat. Even then, Kerry said almost nothing about the incident, leaving the talking to Rassman, with whom he'd had no contact in the intervening thirty-five years. He also resists speaking publicly about the incident that won him the Silver Star, but his surviving crewmates have told how, when they were ambushed by a Vietcong guerilla firing rockets from the riverbank, Kerry made an instantaneous decision that evasive action was impossible, turned his boat directly into the fire, beached it, and leaped ashore, to the astonishment of the man with the rocket launcher, who popped up from his spider hole and fled. Kerry chased him and killed him. Navy men were not supposed to leave their ships during combat, and before recommending Kerry for the medal his commanding officer quipped that he wasn't sure whether he should court-martial him instead."

I guess you haven't heard the whole story about this. I doubt the New Yorker is unbiased. If a story came out of the National Review would you believe it at all. Rassman did have contact with Kerry in 1991 during the POW/MIA committee which Kerry ran.

One rocket was fired, not rockets. The b-40 at best was as accurate as a hand grenade. Kerry did not chase him. His machine gunner winged him then, the VC ran into a hootch, where the gunner laid about 50 rounds into the hootch, before kerry leaped off to finish him off. Very heroic. Only two of his crewmates support him, why?

Everyone who serves is a hero. Medals and ribbons mean nothing, I have 21 medals and ribbons including a silver star received for completing a 100 mission tour. But it means nothing, the ones who didn't come home earned them. I'm no hero, I just hate it when politicians exploit their military service to further their goals. I didn't like it when Dole did that either.

Vietnam is still a hot point for some reason. It is hard for younger people to comprehend what happened over there. Hollywood has there version of Vietnam (ex: Oliver Stone films) which sadly many young people follow as history. It was a dirty, painful war, but that does not give the right for certain people to exploit the veterans, or to insult their honor as decent Americans.

Hopefully if you were around back then you can see why I'm angry at the treatment of our boys.

Why is it my posts are often ignored...?

Far too rational. No room for violent, fiery rhetoric.

Far too rational. No room for violent, fiery rhetoric.
Okay. Just making sure there was a reason.

Everyone who serves is a hero. Medals and ribbons mean nothing, I have 21 medals and ribbons including a silver star received for completing a 100 mission tour. But it means nothing, the ones who didn't come home earned them. I'm no hero, I just hate it when politicians exploit their military service to further their goals. I didn't like it when Dole did that either.

Vietnam is still a hot point for some reason. It is hard for younger people to comprehend what happened over there. Hollywood has there version of Vietnam (ex: Oliver Stone films) which sadly many young people follow as history. It was a dirty, painful war, but that does not give the right for certain people to exploit the veterans, or to insult their honor as decent Americans.

Hopefully if you were around back then you can see why I'm angry at the treatment of our boys.

Well said, my friend. As to you not being a hero, that's absurd. You ARE a hero.

Btw, did you get my TG, HannibalSmith?

Btw, did you get my TG, HannibalSmith?

sorry for the delay, but yes i did, reply sent.

I doubt it ... Vietnam vets do have other things, though. GWS comes from the pesticide baths+raw oil in drinking water+antibiotic coctails+experimental bioweapon vaccines. I don't think they were doing that in Vietnam.

What? No depleted uranium shells?

You shut up. You think most Americans give a rat's ass how "European eyes" view us. We don't.

As for Kerry, it shows that he is a purely political animal.

Yeah, he's been carrying shrapnel in his body all this time just to gain some sympathy votes. But why aren't all those people who are in such an uproar over Kerry's actions in Viet Nam as equally critical, if not more so, over Bush's joining the National Guard? Why is Kerry's racking up three wounds and asking for reassignment considered less heroic than Bush using his father's political influence to gain an unearned spot in the National Gaurd, thus almost assuring him that he'd never have to go to Viet Nam in the first place? And he even couldn't finish his tour, finding it more important to campaign for a family friend then to undergo the rigors of his fellow servicemen. If this isn't a double standard, then I don't know what is.

Yeah, he's been carrying shrapnel in his body all this time just to gain some sympathy votes. But why aren't all those people who are in such an uproar over Kerry's actions in Viet Nam as equally critical, if not more so, over Bush's joining the National Guard? Why is Kerry's racking up three wounds and asking for reassignment considered less heroic than Bush using his father's political influence to gain an unearned spot in the National Gaurd, thus almost assuring him that he'd never have to go to Viet Nam in the first place? If this isn't a double standard, then I don't know what is.

Don't get me wrong, Bush deserves far more criticism than he's getting for his military service (or lack thereof), but at least he didn't rub elbows with Hanoi Jane Fonda, march alongside flag-burning freaks, anarchists, and pro-communist punks, pinks, and pundits, falsely accuse his fellow vets of war crimes and atrocities (which most vets did NOT commit), throw away his medals, cover up evidence (later, in the Senate) that there are still live prisoners being held there, and now claim he was proud he served. Yuck. No wonder he makes almost ever veteran queasy.

Don't get me wrong, Bush deserves far more criticism than he's getting for his military service (or lack thereof), but at least he didn't rub elbows with Hanoi Jane Fonda, march alongside flag-burning freaks, anarchists, and pro-communist punks, pinks, and pundits, falsely accuse his fellow vets of war crimes and atrocities (which most vets did NOT commit), throw away his medals, cover up evidence (later, in the Senate) that there are still live prisoners being held there, and now claim he was proud he served. Yuck. No wonder he makes almost ever veteran queasy.

Who else to stand up for what they believe than someone who volunteered to fight for their nation?

You give the lie to any shred of sanity you might hope to possess with your characterization of all the people who righteously stood up for their cause, for peace, for an end to an absurdity that harvested the youth of America on a quotidian basis, as, let's see...freaks, punks, pinks and pundits. While I admire your alliteration, I am nauseated by your short-sightedness.

You say that Kerry did "falsely accuse his fellow vets of war crimes and atrocities" and then immediately add, parenthetically: "which most vets did NOT commit." This is a blatant contradiction. Your last comment tacitly allows that atrocities and war crimes were committed, while your first comment falaciously attributes to Kerry a blanket condemnation of his fellow soldiers.

John Kerry never said that all soldiers committed atrocities, and - more importantly - John Kerry never said that his fellow soldiers were primarily the guilty parties. He said that the commanders of soldiers gave orders contrary to the Geneva Convention, and that some (including himself) carried them out. You have twisted facts into a shameless perversion of the truth to fit some distorted, negative view of public servants. And for that you should be disenfranchised.

Furthermore, does your condemnation of Kerry's nefarious activities in the senate in covering up these elusive surviving POWs and MIAs in Vietnam (for which he has been nearly universally lauded) also spread to John McCain, who co-chaired the commission with him?

Do you honestly believe that these two scarred men conspired to bury living American soldiers in the dirt of American History for a political gain so insubstantial as to register almost exclusively on forum boards such as this?

Finally, and this is the most important of all, you delineate between Bush and Kerry in the above quotation as if Bush's cowardice is retroactively justified by his refusal to participate in anti-war activities, and suggest that Kerry's heroism is somehow sullied by his courageous and coherent stand against the war. Your sentiment seems to be that somehow Kerry was a man alone among his fellow soldiers - a solitary voice of protest from a surging and unified chorus of support. But that's absurd. I know plenty of Vietnam vets who shudder at the remembrance of that war. I know that Kerry was not a man alone - that he represented and gave voice to a large organization of Vets against the war. And I know that there is no person more legitimate in their complaints than he who has volunteered to contribute to the action they come to find appaling.

Thanks. I'm Knoxbanedoodle of the Incorporated States of Knoxbanedoodle. Please endorse me in the UN.

Saving their lives? He beached their patrol boat in order to shoot a half dead , weaponsless vietcong man in the face. leaving the boat stranded while he went and broke procedure to administer the coup de grace

1) "half dead"? While he had been "clipped", he than ran behind a hut. If you consider that "half dead", then I admire(?) your verbal agility.
2) "weaponsless"? Would it be too much of us to ask you to consider getting your facts straight before you embarrass yourself further? He was carrying a rocket, which he had just pointed at the boat. "Frederic Short, the man in the tub operating the twin guns... believes the guerrilla didn't fire because he was too close and needed to be a suitable distance to hit the boat squarely and avoid ricochet debris." (http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp) Which would explain why he ran behind the hut.
3) "in the face" Since you were wrong about the condition of the Viet Cong as being "weaponsless", I am tempted to write this off as mere speculation on your part. But should it turn out that you are correct [and some sort of citation would be appreciated], I can only hope that John Kerry, should he ever find him in a similiar situation, will next time have the good sense to be more selective as to where he shoots people who are trying to kill him and his fellow crewmen, if for no other reason that doing so may deprive his political opponents of even more red herrings to try to use against him.
4) "leaving the boat stranded while he went and broke procedure" Yes, what he should have done is quietly, but authoritatively, commanded (a la the San Angeles police in Demolition Man) the gentleman to come closer to the ship so that he could be dispatched in a means compliant with military rules. :rolleyes: Ahem, such procedures are hardly written in stone. "Wade Sanders, who commanded a swift boat that sometimes accompanied Kerry's vessel[, said,] 'I can hear the words, "He endangered his crew." But from our position, the tactic to take is whatever action is best designed to eliminate the enemy threat, which is what he did.'"
If people have issues with his actions after the war, fine, let's debate those. But please, no more character assassinations to try to make him look less heroic during the war.

Thats why he shot vietnamese civilians right? because he was terrified of war and expressed sorrow for civi casualties?
And someone who has killed innocent civis himself right? He saw it done to others, and participated. His protesting the war has to be his first act of flip-flopping. He found out this was popular to do, so he joined in.

I find it interesting how many "amateur psychologists" can somehow determine Kerry's motives for his actions. He married Teresa Heinz not out of love, but so that he could have access to her fortune. He protested the war not because he thought his former actions were wrong, but because "[h]e found out this was popular to do". I find it a much braver action to admit to the wrongs one has committed, and condemn them, than to continue to commit them or try to cover them up. This is not "flipflopping", this is repentance.

Don't get me wrong, Bush deserves far more criticism than he's getting for his military service (or lack thereof)....

I blame this lack of criticism on that "liberal media" that conservatives keep referring to....

at least he didn't rub elbows with Hanoi Jane Fonda, march alongside flag-burning freaks, anarchists, and pro-communist punks, pinks, and pundits

Perhaps you would prefer that he kept quiet about a morally unjustified war based upon a questionable policy (the domino theory), allowing that many more lives to be wasted. However many atrocities Ho Chi Minh commited, supporting the corrupt and repressive government of Ngo Dinh Diem only served to increase his popularity. Thus, regardless of whether or not we could have won such a war, it was counterproductive to wage it in the first place. Despite the sheer illogic of such a position, we keep believing that a pro-US dictator who disregards the rights and needs of his people will somehow be preferable to the people of that country than one who at least allows even minor reforms that benefit them, yet speaks out against the US. We cannot demonstrate the superiority of the American system of government by supporting those (such as Hussein, Marcos, the Shah of Iran, etc.) who rule in ways that run contrary to its basic principles,

Not everyone in his crew support him. He served on more then 1 boat remember. Sure a small bunch of his supporters are jetted around the nation to boast of his exploits. The majority of people who served with him do not support him. As a veteran I have a serious issue with his claims, and his service record. My ideas are the same as many Vietnam Vets. When we are thought of as baby killers, addicts, torturers, animals because of what Kerry was saying about us we should have the right to defend our good names.

Torture, war crimes! Kerry was in the Navy, when exactly did he see torture, from his boat? The true war crimes were committed by the VC, NVA. Have you ever seen what VC troops would do to villages that were friendly to American troops. Until you have then don't talk to us about the "war crimes" reminiscent of Genghis Khan. The only thing some vets can think about when Kerry comes to mind is his basically pro-Hanoi stance. He is a phoney, opportunistic, liar. Sure certain things did happen, but on the whole most soldiers were honorable, scared kids, who just wanted to get home. He was a hot dog, trying only to advance himself, not thinking too much about his crew. Thomas Wright who served as the OIC reported that he had a hard time making Kerry follow orders. Oriented towards his personal goals and not those of the unit.

Why won't Kerry sign form 180, which would release hismilitary records. Does he have something to hide. Since he is always bringing up his service, why not let the American people see his files. I know you'll say what about Bush, but this only about Kerry. As I arrived back in the US after my service, I would have liked to have thanked Kerry for having giving fuel to the protestors who spat on me and insulted myself, my wife, and children who happened to be at the airport to meet me.

If you want more info check out SwiftVets.com for most his "record"

makes you wounder why the press is not pushing for is record to be released.
can any one here say they would not like to see it?

Yes, and the way Europeans slander US politicians is extremely disgusting too. We hold that right highest of all because when we were under European control we were prohibited from speaking ill of the King.

Wow....
It's really making a point to throw mud to the head of state.
The neocon weasels started bashing Clinton, you know.
Because they couldn't find one other reason to fire him,
they came up with a blowjob.
So what? Why can't a president have his dick sucked?

But don't start yapping about it in the media.
It's totally irrelivant.

You bloody hypocrits!
Most of the sex movies come from the USA!

You shut up. You think most Americans give a rat's ass how "European eyes" view us. We don't.



And we don't give a damn about those suckers in the USA.
I only wonder, how it is possible that such a loony tune as Dubya becomes president of the US.

I even wonder, if Americans can mention at least one intellectual American.

And we don't give a damn about those suckers in the USA.
I only wonder, how it is possible that such a loony tune as Dubya becomes president of the US.

I even wonder, if Americans can mention at least one intellectual American.

Thomas Jefferson:he could speak 7 languages.

Is he bright enough for you?

Most of the sex movies come from the USA!

Not true, just the good ones do.

what a really boring topic, however, given your feelings toward Europeans, stop dragging us into unwanted wars

Military career or not, this is completely my opinion however, how can you support/defend John Kerry. Kerry's platform is completely based on bush bashing whether you agree or not. He doesnt take opinions on subjects unless he absolutely has to, as well as flip floping his stance on numerous issues. If you believe everything you see from a liberal or conservative news coverage channel you will have completely misinterpreted views of any political figure. If you watch his debates/speaches, the democratic convention you will understand the true character of Kerry. However, this is not a supportive bush opinion either. I think that both men however nobel it was to join the services use there military careers as unstable support.

1) "half dead"? While he had been "clipped", he than ran behind a hut. If you consider that "half dead", then I admire(?) your verbal agility.
2) "weaponsless"? Would it be too much of us to ask you to consider getting your facts straight before you embarrass yourself further? He was carrying a rocket, which he had just pointed at the boat. "Frederic Short, the man in the tub operating the twin guns... believes the guerrilla didn't fire because he was too close and needed to be a suitable distance to hit the boat squarely and avoid ricochet debris." (http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp) Which would explain why he ran behind the hut.


Hmm, I doubt that you have ever been shot before, or have you. After I was shot down, I was wounded by VC fire, I was clipped in the leg. Even though it looked like a minor wound, it would have eventually killed my by loss of blood. Now an AK which fires a 7.62, I believe, is small change compared to a large round such as a 50 caliber. Any part of the body it hits will do massive damage. Heck when we had to fly over THUD Ridge near Hanoi, we routinly took fire from comparable shells to the 50 caliber, it is not a minor hit. The VC was hit by a 50 cal which means he had a serious wound which would have killed him. Fast boats have two tubs on them by the way.

Their facts were straight. Mr Short has changed his story over the years.

Thomas Jefferson:he could speak 7 languages.

Is he bright enough for you?


HS,

He is a troll. Don't take the flamebait......

Military career or not, this is completely my opinion however, how can you support/defend John Kerry. Kerry's platform is completely based on bush bashing whether you agree or not. He doesnt take opinions on subjects unless he absolutely has to, as well as flip floping his stance on numerous issues. If you believe everything you see from a liberal or conservative news coverage channel you will have completely misinterpreted views of any political figure. If you watch his debates/speaches, the democratic convention you will understand the true character of Kerry. However, this is not a supportive bush opinion either. I think that both men however nobel it was to join the services use there military careers as unstable support.
bring on the flip flops mr zombie, and bush does NOT have a military career, and military career is a very stable support, it usually bolsters that presidents chance of getting elected: Washington, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, etc

I love it when a person slanders a fellow comrade in arms and then says that all veterans feel the same way. It is not only untrue, it is entirely disgraceful to minimize or lie about a fellow serviceman's record. Medals are not handed out as though they were made of scrap. The Silver Star is not given to people because of their political connections. Kerry has nothing to hide with his record. He's released the pertinent information about his service.

Spreading around the filth about Hanoi Jane just shows how much you haven't looked into. Kerry never had connections with her and to continue spreading that lie is just another shameful tactic of dishonoring a veteran. For the record, he spoke out against the war in Vietnam. As did tens of thousands of other veterans from Vietnam. They saw what happened and returned to speak of the horrors to the American people. Their bravery for having served and then telling it to perhaps end the tragedy should not be tarnished.

Very few veterans I know support Bush. They've witnessed firsthand how he treats us. I've been lucky so far...not had to utilize any services. But I feel terrible for those who do because Bush has been gutting the Veterans' Administration for 4 years now. Friends of mine on active duty now are having difficulties fulfilling their obligations because they are worried about the impact upon their families. A friend of mine in the National Guard watched his business go under because he's been activated for over 15 months now. He voted for Bush in 2000. I can tell you without a doubt that Bush won't get his vote this year.

Bottom line, we have 2 choices for president this year.

1. Kerry, who volunteered to serve in Vietnam. Kerry, who earned distinction while he served. Kerry, who came home and helped to end a war that even its creators eventually called unnecessary.

2. Bush, who specifically checked not to serve in Vietnam. Bush, who failed his medical examination and lost his flight credentials. Bush, who scored the lowest score in history and yet still earned a commission. Bush, who can't account for his service while in Alabama. Bush, whose CO wrote that he wasn't presented to be evaluated. Bush, whose greatest military honor was that he danced naked in a local bar that his fellow Guardsmen frequented.

If our choice were merely about military service, the choice is the easiest we've perhaps ever faced in our country's history. As it stands, it still should be.

His Silver Star came after he hot doggedly beached his PCF (which was against policy) after a B40 rocket shot from shore.


Erm...to my knowledge this was a common tactic when PT boats came under fire from the shore. They'd usually drop a 3 man patrol off to clear the enemy threats then the boat would circle back around and pick them up.

Well this is just my humble opinion. I'm to young to have gone to Vietnam. Therefore, I admit I am an "arm chair quarterback". I think there were a whole bunch of mistakes with Vietnam. I don't think there were a hell of a lot of people that wanted to go including Bush, Kerry and Gore. People can debate if the war was necessary but I think we got duped by the French and then there was the paranoia about communism.

I think the biggest mistake was how we fought that war. I have the deepest respect for those that serve in the military. I think the soldiers were poorly led by inept Generals. I mean if you are going to war, then fight the damn thing like your trying to win. That is not meant as a slam against the average soldier. I believe if that war was fought with descent leadership, a lot less people would have died… on both sides. It also did not help that the administration at the time put tons of constraints on the military … you can attack here but not there …etc.

Back to topic …. Bush, Kerry, and even Gore…. They did not want to go to Vietnam anymore than anyone else. All of them used their money and family influence with regards to that war. People talk about Rep. Vs. Dem.. I think their wrong. It’s more a matter of class distinction. The “haves” vs. the “have nots”.

Back to topic …. Bush, Kerry, and even Gore…. They did not want to go to Vietnam anymore than anyone else. All of them used their money and family influence with regards to that war. People talk about Rep. Vs. Dem.. I think their wrong. It’s more a matter of class distinction. The “haves” vs. the “have nots”.

errr? Influence as to what?

Kerry saw combat.
Gore was a newsguy and I heard he had a Green Beret body guard paid for by daddy. Don't know if it is true. I don't think he was ever near serious fighting.
The Shrub spent his time looking for commies in the states. Well that's when he showed up.

John Kerry was awarded The Silver Star, The Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

George Bush used his fathers name and money to get into an air national guard base, and proceeded to abuse alchohol, and drugs...( Hes admitted to both of these) and was absent and derelict in his duties.

Wich of these men should YOU trust with national security?

John Kerry was awarded The Silver Star, The Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

George Bush used his fathers name and money to get into an air national guard base, and proceeded to abuse alchohol, and drugs...( Hes admitted to both of these) and was absent and derelict in his duties.

Wich of these men should YOU trust with national security?

I would trust Bush. First of all, Kerry got people all ralled up at a bonfire and said, "Medals are nothing" blah blah blah, and encouraged people to throw their medals into the fire, but guess what, oh, poor Kerry forgot to throw his THREE PURPLE HEARTS, SILVER STAR, AND BRONZE STAR into the fire like every other poor unsuspecting twit that he was able to work up. So, Bush, even if he did take the easy way out, never underestimated the power of the milatary, and if he were derelict in his duties, he sure wasn't going to denounce it and throw his ribbions (probably not medals) into a fire with other people, and ooh, surprise! keep them, and forgot to throw them in and uses it as a plus for his presidency.

By the way, does the Libertarian candidate have any public office or Milatary experience, I'd be interested to know.

I would trust Bush. First of all, Kerry got people all ralled up at a bonfire and said, "Medals are nothing" blah blah blah, and encouraged people to throw their medals into the fire, but guess what, oh, poor Kerry forgot to throw his THREE PURPLE HEARTS, SILVER STAR, AND BRONZE STAR into the fire like every other poor unsuspecting twit that he was able to work up. So, Bush, even if he did take the easy way out, never underestimated the power of the milatary, and if he were derelict in his duties, he sure wasn't going to denounce it and throw his ribbions (probably not medals) into a fire with other people, and ooh, surprise! keep them, and forgot to throw them in and uses it as a plus for his presidency.

So what? The point is the man won medals, wether he threw them away or not! If he threw them away then fine, that's his choice. But if he kept them, then that's fine too, because obviously they're his and he earned them. Using Kerry's medals as a reason not to vote for him is really lame.

One thing I dont get- the Republicans are trying to say that John Kerry is the most liberal member of the senate, but then they say he is a flip-flopper who takes both sides of the issue. He cant be both, can he?

Okay now lets analyze the facts. Kerry voulnteered to go to Vietnam. Bush "joined" the national guard and has no proof that he actually served even a single day of active duty past his training. Kerry did a tour in vietnam, was decorated and came back home. Then he protested the war and threw his medals over the gate of the white house.

Now yes, Kerry did protest the war, I can see how that pisses off some veterans, but he wasn't trying to defame you he was trying to defame the war because he saw like many people did that it was stupid and useless and it was an atrocity and he knew that his position as a veteran, a decorated one at that, would help him in his cause. Now I'm not sure why the guy exercising his freedom of speech makes him such a terrible guy. I think vets are just angry with him because they're grouping him with the same group of protesters that spit on them when they got home. And he clearly wasn't one of those people.

Why should veterans vote for Kerry? Hrmn well because he has a respect for them and he knows what they have been through. Bush has been cutting VA funding throughout the whole of his term. A combination of the simple fact that herry IS a vet, his voting record on veterans issues has SUPPORTED vets and the fact that bush has been OPPOSED to vets through legislation passed by his administration seems pretty convincing to me. I used to vote third party, but this year I realized that it is too important that we oust bush. If my taxes go up a little I really don't care, my taxes didn't really drop a whole lot under bush anyway cause I'm not a wealthy american. But we have the largest deficit in history, a job market that, atleast in this area, isn't getting any better anymore, another war that never should have happened that has created another set of traumatized veterans, a foreign relations situation that can be described only as a complete nightmare, an administration with an Attourney General that is hellbent on stripping our rights away from us and a president that is an absolute biggot that is hellbent on screwing over the gay community once and for all. Now when you look at it from that perspective, people who are voting for bush because of his tax cuts or because of his positions on "family issues" seem pretty shallow because they aren't looking at the bigger picture.

One thing I dont get- the Republicans are trying to say that John Kerry is the most liberal member of the senate, but then they say he is a flip-flopper who takes both sides of the issue. He cant be both, can he?

In short, No.

He is a liberal by action and a flip flopper by word ,after all he will try to support both sides until he votes ,usually votes liberal,and even so often
contradicts his own actions by his statements very confusing and very effective
method of smokescreening ,whe it all boils down to it he and bush both come
from the same school of thought and belonged to the same secret soceity, i do not believe there is much difference ,bush is more straight forward (for a politician and you cant trust any of them) how ever i think kerry would do the same things but under the cover of his verbal smokescreen . its pretty much a tie in my mind between them.

Vote Libertarian and get rid of the two parties that have hijacked OUR government!!

John Kerry was awarded The Silver Star, The Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

George Bush used his fathers name and money to get into an air national guard base, and proceeded to abuse alchohol, and drugs...( Hes admitted to both of these) and was absent and derelict in his duties.

Wich of these men should YOU trust with national security?

Since when do medals make you presidential material. Why was Clinton elected? For some reason military service now counts again.

Erm...to my knowledge this was a common tactic when PT boats came under fire from the shore. They'd usually drop a 3 man patrol off to clear the enemy threats then the boat would circle back around and pick them up.

Not true. Why would you leave the boat when you don't know what is out there in the jungle? You could run into an ambush. That would ruin your day I bet. YOU DON'T LEAVE THE BOAT! It puts the boat and everyone on board in danger. He didn't command a PT boat, his Swift doesn't carry torpedoes.

Thomas Jefferson:he could speak 7 languages.

Is he bright enough for you?

Yeah... Really?

The bloke is dead for some while... <GRIN>

I love it when a person slanders a fellow comrade in arms and then says that all veterans feel the same way. It is not only untrue, it is entirely disgraceful to minimize or lie about a fellow serviceman's record. Medals are not handed out as though they were made of scrap. The Silver Star is not given to people because of their political connections. Kerry has nothing to hide with his record. He's released the pertinent information about his service.

Spreading around the filth about Hanoi Jane just shows how much you haven't looked into. Kerry never had connections with her and to continue spreading that lie is just another shameful tactic of dishonoring a veteran. For the record, he spoke out against the war in Vietnam. As did tens of thousands of other veterans from Vietnam. They saw what happened and returned to speak of the horrors to the American people. Their bravery for having served and then telling it to perhaps end the tragedy should not be tarnished.

Very few veterans I know support Bush. They've witnessed firsthand how he treats us. I've been lucky so far...not had to utilize any services. But I feel terrible for those who do because Bush has been gutting the Veterans' Administration for 4 years now. Friends of mine on active duty now are having difficulties fulfilling their obligations because they are worried about the impact upon their families. A friend of mine in the National Guard watched his business go under because he's been activated for over 15 months now. He voted for Bush in 2000. I can tell you without a doubt that Bush won't get his vote this year.

Bottom line, we have 2 choices for president this year.

1. Kerry, who volunteered to serve in Vietnam. Kerry, who earned distinction while he served. Kerry, who came home and helped to end a war that even its creators eventually called unnecessary.

2. Bush, who specifically checked not to serve in Vietnam. Bush, who failed his medical examination and lost his flight credentials. Bush, who scored the lowest score in history and yet still earned a commission. Bush, who can't account for his service while in Alabama. Bush, whose CO wrote that he wasn't presented to be evaluated. Bush, whose greatest military honor was that he danced naked in a local bar that his fellow Guardsmen frequented.

If our choice were merely about military service, the choice is the easiest we've perhaps ever faced in our country's history. As it stands, it still should be.

Slander? Whatever. Why aren't all of his service records released, you know, all of his finess reports.

Were you in Vietnam, if you are even a veteran, you would know that medals were issued for moral boosting as well. Make someone look good, and it rubs off on others.

Hanoi Jane and Kerry have connections. Remember the march from VF to Morristown. Weren't Jane and Kerry marching together. There is a photo of these two sitting listening to a speaker. Yes it's ok to speak out against the war, but not when it encourages militant acts like spitting on vets, calling them baby killers. When you say atrocities occured on a regular basis by many soldiers, that's pretty much condeming all of us.

How many vets do you know? They honestly want Kerry for president? Did they also support Clinton? What about Kerry voting against every weapons system that came his way? Why was he for a nuclear freeze as Russia was building up their arsenal? Why did he support going to war against Iraq?

Most combat vets I know do not want Kerry elected. Sure he got medals, which we all did, but why was he so interested in leaving so early. He saw very little action compared to others in the Swift Boats. Most men were there for a year, but he was gone in 4 months, two of which saw no action. Sure you can use the three wounds, which he called "walking wounded" by the way, to justifiy his leaving. By the way Thunderland did you know that purple hearts were given out for scratches if you complained enough.

Thunder do you really want Kerry to be the President. Do you want the UN to be given more power. Do you want to be sent to lousy third world nations (ala Clinton) to help feed the people. Remember Somalia, that was a success, huh? Get your facts straight son. Kerry is not fit for duty. Vote libertarian!

HS,

He is a troll. Don't take the flamebait......

Americans are trolls!

They write things that are the ultimate stupidity.
Ignorance in optima forma.
To me, they are a bunch of geeks.

And Bush is the King of Assholes.

Get your facts straight son. Kerry is not fit for duty. Vote libertarian!

Well...
The point is... Libertarian is another word for fascist.

That's all there is to it.
So long dude!
Read some books, and start thinking!

Well...
The point is... Libertarian is another word for fascist.

That's all there is to it.
So long dude!
Read some books, and start thinking!

When you leave the 9th grade maybe you'll learn.

Not true. Why would you leave the boat when you don't know what is out there in the jungle? You could run into an ambush. That would ruin your day I bet. YOU DON'T LEAVE THE BOAT! It puts the boat and everyone on board in danger. He didn't command a PT boat, his Swift doesn't carry torpedoes.


Regardless of what boat he had, the job of river patrols was to intentionally draw fire, and when a shore threat presented itself they would dispatch small patrols in order to neutralize the threat so the boat didn't get blown away. Granted, officers were not allowed to take part in these patrols per Navy orders, but Kerry decided to beach his boat and do it himself. He reacted under pressure, and I think putting himself in the line of fire is commendable.

Did he put himself at risk of being captured and tortured for information? Yes. Did he put himself in harms way to kill an enemy soldier and possibly save the lives of his men? Yes. So you have to look at it both ways. Yes he violated an order, but he chased down an enemy soldier himself and killed him. I think the order violation can be forgiven for the simple reason that it took courage to charge into the jungle and take out a threat. Alot of times when soldiers are awarded medals like the Silver Star and Medal of Honor, they do things that would normally be labeled as rule violations, etc. If I recall correctly, it's called "above and beyond the call of duty".

Stop watching Fox News, it's rotting your brains! :headbang:

Slander? Whatever. Why aren't all of his service records released, you know, all of his finess reports.

Were you in Vietnam, if you are even a veteran, you would know that medals were issued for moral boosting as well. Make someone look good, and it rubs off on others.

Hanoi Jane and Kerry have connections. Remember the march from VF to Morristown. Weren't Jane and Kerry marching together. There is a photo of these two sitting listening to a speaker. Yes it's ok to speak out against the war, but not when it encourages militant acts like spitting on vets, calling them baby killers. When you say atrocities occured on a regular basis by many soldiers, that's pretty much condeming all of us.

How many vets do you know? They honestly want Kerry for president? Did they also support Clinton? What about Kerry voting against every weapons system that came his way? Why was he for a nuclear freeze as Russia was building up their arsenal? Why did he support going to war against Iraq?

Most combat vets I know do not want Kerry elected. Sure he got medals, which we all did, but why was he so interested in leaving so early. He saw very little action compared to others in the Swift Boats. Most men were there for a year, but he was gone in 4 months, two of which saw no action. Sure you can use the three wounds, which he called "walking wounded" by the way, to justifiy his leaving. By the way Thunderland did you know that purple hearts were given out for scratches if you complained enough.

Thunder do you really want Kerry to be the President. Do you want the UN to be given more power. Do you want to be sent to lousy third world nations (ala Clinton) to help feed the people. Remember Somalia, that was a success, huh? Get your facts straight son. Kerry is not fit for duty. Vote libertarian!

1. Kerry released the portions of his records that were requested to be seen. As his campaign manager has said, they will refuse to continue pandering to the Republicans until Bush does the same with his "military" records. Seems fair to me.

2. I was born in 1971. I wasn't in school when Vietnam ended. No sir, I joined the military upon graduation from high school and served in Iraq during the Gulf War. However, you know what else? I can read....that means I've read up on the history of the war, and studied it intently. And I'll be damned if anyone I know EVER received the Silver Star that didn't deserve it. You're absolutely right they were a boost in morale. But to say that morale was the only reason? Well that's just wrong.

Of course, if for some idiotic reason you were right then you are saying the military recognized the morale-boosting potential of someone like Kerry and therefore are saying that Kerry has significant potential to lead....a quality that is very presidential. (Note: I wouldn't have lowered myself to vulgar replies except when you apparently decided that since I view things differently I must not have served. I am a veteran, not a sheep.)

3. You initially said that Kerry and Hanoi Jane had connections, of which you are still saying. Your proof is a picture that shows Kerry sitting several rows behind Hanoi Jane. They aren't with each other. They aren't talking to one another. Hell, they aren't even LOOKING at one another. Now look at the original picture. You know, the one that isn't cropped and shows a larger picture of the crowd. You know, the fact that there were close to 100,000 people in the crowd. Wow....they're all connected to Hanoi Jane because of that??

By your logic we shall now assume that Bush was in collaboration with Saddam Hussein because we have a picture of Rumsfeld shaking his hand in the 1980's. We shall assume that Bush was in collaboration with the 9/11 hijackers because Bush's dad and Prince Bandhar of Saudi Arabia are such good friends. We can assume that Bush is linked with al-Qaeda because his family has business connections with the bin Ladens, initially through Harken Energy. OR, we can use actual logic and assume that Point A doesn't always lead to Point B.

More simplified: if you are on the street and a murder occurs in which you are a witness, are you now an accomplice of said murder simply because of your loose association with the murderer?

4. How many vets do I know? LOL, do you really want to go there? OK, I'm a psychologist that contracts work with the Veterans Administration as well as my state's Division of Veterans Affairs. Still care to go down that road? Who they voted for? I'd say quite a few voted for Dole. I'd say quite a few voted for Poppy Bush. A large portion voted for Bush in 2000. But then they've seen the disrespect Bush has for veterans and our programs. When you see firsthand such occurances, you tend to rethink your support. I'd say 80% of the veterans I know and work with are Kerry supporters.

5. Check Kerry's voting record before repeating what you've seen on Bush's commercials. Kerry has voted for the military several times. The "flip-flop" Bush speaks of is when Kerry chose not to vote for an AMENDED version of an initial bill that he did vote for. He voted against it because the initial version spoke of how to pay for the bill. That portion was struck by the Republican leadership, showing fiscal irresponsibility. I am personally glad that a congressman would not blindly support something that sinks our country into deficits that can't be erased unless my children and their children pay for it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul....

6. Kerry left after meeting the requirements? And this was wrong? He was wrong because the military had a policy that states that you can leave after being wounded 3 times? He fulfilled his entire enlistment. Why didn't Bush? Why didn't Bush even attempt to fly since he was a pilot? Its sad that you can defend that.

7. Get your facts straight. Somalia was inherited by Clinton. You never once heard him crying about Bush getting him stuck there. In answer to your question....yes, I want Kerry to be my president. Because I want the United States to be a part of the greater world, and not its police force. Last time I checked we are part of a military alliance that didn't even support our invasion of Iraq. I want our military used for noble purposes and not for an invasion based on a web of lies. How can you justify 900 of your brethren being dead for a war that was based on a lie? That's just sick. We are part of the United Nations. We are part of NATO. We are not ruled by them but you can't snub the whole world and then expect them to clean up our mess. That is not logical and the person we have leading us now doesn't understand that. Cowboy diplomacy is leading us down the path to ruination. You say Kerry is not fit for duty? Everything Bush has touched in his life has turned sour. And this is your man? Get your facts straight. Don't be a sheep. Don't vote for someone simply because his spin machine is telling you that all your friends are going to. You have the power of independent thought....use it! We have fought with allies in the Gulf War, in Korea, in both World Wars, and yes, even in Vietnam. Every generation understood that the United States is part of a larger global community. There was no shame in working with allies in those wars. There was the satisfaction that each of us were striving to achieve a better world. Why now do we chose to abandon the policies that were so historically successful? Ask yourself that. Ask yourself why Bush continues to push tax cuts when we can't afford the bills mounting from this war. Ask yourself why no one is being asked to sacrifice for our military, something that is so out of line with history that we are now plunging into record deficits. Ask yourself if you really want 4 more years of an incompetent Commander who ran on a platform of responsibility but then blames everyone else for the errors of his administration. That's not integrity. That's not leadership. That's cowardice. Do you remember your time in? What did you think of cowards?

Good post Thunderland!

And a thank you for your work with the Vets!

Good post Thunderland!

And a thank you for your work with the Vets!

Seconded.

Oh great....Thunderland a head doc...great..hey...ahmmm...can I sit on my lazyboy here and get a session..it takes me FOREVER if I want to get an appointment at my local VA hospital..lol.....and oh..hey..can we do the inkspot test....

Woo-hoo! It's good to see Thunderland back!

I blame this lack of criticism on that "liberal media" that conservatives keep referring to....



Perhaps you would prefer that he kept quiet about a morally unjustified war based upon a questionable policy (the domino theory), allowing that many more lives to be wasted. However many atrocities Ho Chi Minh commited, supporting the corrupt and repressive government of Ngo Dinh Diem only served to increase his popularity. Thus, regardless of whether or not we could have won such a war, it was counterproductive to wage it in the first place. Despite the sheer illogic of such a position, we keep believing that a pro-US dictator who disregards the rights and needs of his people will somehow be preferable to the people of that country than one who at least allows even minor reforms that benefit them, yet speaks out against the US. We cannot demonstrate the superiority of the American system of government by supporting those (such as Hussein, Marcos, the Shah of Iran, etc.) who rule in ways that run contrary to its basic principles,

You make some very excellent points. However, I'd like to ask: what is a 'morally justified' war? I think war is immoral no matter what. As for 'pro-US dictators,' whatever faults he may have had, at least the Shah granted more freedoms to his people than many other Middle Eastern rulers did, and his rule did bring great prosperity to his people. As for Hussein, he was a dictator, but was never pro-US. He didn't object to receiving aid, but never was his opinion of his favorable.

Well this is just my humble opinion. I'm to young to have gone to Vietnam. Therefore, I admit I am an "arm chair quarterback". I think there were a whole bunch of mistakes with Vietnam. I don't think there were a hell of a lot of people that wanted to go including Bush, Kerry and Gore. People can debate if the war was necessary but I think we got duped by the French and then there was the paranoia about communism.

I think the biggest mistake was how we fought that war. I have the deepest respect for those that serve in the military. I think the soldiers were poorly led by inept Generals. I mean if you are going to war, then fight the damn thing like your trying to win. That is not meant as a slam against the average soldier. I believe if that war was fought with descent leadership, a lot less people would have died… on both sides. It also did not help that the administration at the time put tons of constraints on the military … you can attack here but not there …etc.

Back to topic …. Bush, Kerry, and even Gore…. They did not want to go to Vietnam anymore than anyone else. All of them used their money and family influence with regards to that war. People talk about Rep. Vs. Dem.. I think their wrong. It’s more a matter of class distinction. The “haves” vs. the “have nots”.

Generals didn't run the war in Vietnam. Slimeball politicians did, like President Johnson, Dean Rusk, Robert McNamara, etc.

Here are some books I would recommend:


1)Background to Betrayal (by Hilaire du Berrier)
2)Our Vietnam Nightmare (I don't remember the author)
3)Buddha's Child: My Fight to Save Vietnam (by Nguyen Cao Ky)
4)How We Lost the Vietnam War (by Nguyen Cao Ky)
5)In Their Defense: U.S. Soldiers in the Vietnam War (by Dr. Pham Kim Vinh)
6)Deliver Us From Evil (by Thomas Dooley)
7)Losers are Pirates: A Close Look at the PBS Television Series 'Vietnam: A Television History' (by James Bannerian [I think])
8)Death by Government (by Professor R.J. Rummel)
9)The Shadows of Power (by James Perloff)
10)Kiss the Boys Good-bye (I don't remember the author)
11)Stolen Valor (I don't remember the authors)
12)Henry Kissinger: Soviet Agent (again, don't remember...)
13)Kissinger on the Couch (by Phyllis Schlafley)
14)Richard Nixon: The Man Behind the Mask (by Gary Allan)
15)National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union (by Antony Sutton)
16)The Best Enemy Money Can Buy (by Antony Sutton)

Oh great....Thunderland a head doc...great..hey...ahmmm...can I sit on my lazyboy here and get a session..it takes me FOREVER if I want to get an appointment at my local VA hospital..lol.....and oh..hey..can we do the inkspot test....

For you, my man, anything. Well, anything except those Rorschach tests. I don't need to show someone an inkblot that looks like a butterfly and have them tell me its an ogre eating their mommy. I trained as a behavioral therapist but have incorporated a lot of Reality Therapy since I've actually gotten into the real world. Seems I've found that behavioral therapy doesn't quite work when you're dealing with past traumas.

Led massive pro-Hanoi rallies, threw medals over the White House fence.

He burned some medals too. Including a purple heart or two. Hmm...Burned his purple hearts? But he's got three! (See, "This Land is Your Land"). Yep, that's right, he burned more than one purple heart.

But wait! That's not all! They weren't his! He's still got his three, so yeah, he burned medals, but not his. Can we spell "Flip flops"?

Also, for anyone who has dilusions that he'll actually go after terrorists:
He's voted against every major military anything since the sixties.

For those who think he wouldn't have gone into Iraq:
Kerry voted for that...

http://jibjab.com/ Check out the Bush/Kerry video

1. Kerry released the portions of his records that were requested to be seen. As his campaign manager has said, they will refuse to continue pandering to the Republicans until Bush does the same with his "military" records. Seems fair to me.

2. I was born in 1971. I wasn't in school when Vietnam ended. No sir, I joined the military upon graduation from high school and served in Iraq during the Gulf War. However, you know what else? I can read....that means I've read up on the history of the war, and studied it intently. And I'll be damned if anyone I know EVER received the Silver Star that didn't deserve it. You're absolutely right they were a boost in morale. But to say that morale was the only reason? Well that's just wrong.

Of course, if for some idiotic reason you were right then you are saying the military recognized the morale-boosting potential of someone like Kerry and therefore are saying that Kerry has significant potential to lead....a quality that is very presidential. (Note: I wouldn't have lowered myself to vulgar replies except when you apparently decided that since I view things differently I must not have served. I am a veteran, not a sheep.)

3. You initially said that Kerry and Hanoi Jane had connections, of which you are still saying. Your proof is a picture that shows Kerry sitting several rows behind Hanoi Jane. They aren't with each other. They aren't talking to one another. Hell, they aren't even LOOKING at one another. Now look at the original picture. You know, the one that isn't cropped and shows a larger picture of the crowd. You know, the fact that there were close to 100,000 people in the crowd. Wow....they're all connected to Hanoi Jane because of that??

By your logic we shall now assume that Bush was in collaboration with Saddam Hussein because we have a picture of Rumsfeld shaking his hand in the 1980's. We shall assume that Bush was in collaboration with the 9/11 hijackers because Bush's dad and Prince Bandhar of Saudi Arabia are such good friends. We can assume that Bush is linked with al-Qaeda because his family has business connections with the bin Ladens, initially through Harken Energy. OR, we can use actual logic and assume that Point A doesn't always lead to Point B.

More simplified: if you are on the street and a murder occurs in which you are a witness, are you now an accomplice of said murder simply because of your loose association with the murderer?

4. How many vets do I know? LOL, do you really want to go there? OK, I'm a psychologist that contracts work with the Veterans Administration as well as my state's Division of Veterans Affairs. Still care to go down that road? Who they voted for? I'd say quite a few voted for Dole. I'd say quite a few voted for Poppy Bush. A large portion voted for Bush in 2000. But then they've seen the disrespect Bush has for veterans and our programs. When you see firsthand such occurances, you tend to rethink your support. I'd say 80% of the veterans I know and work with are Kerry supporters.

5. Check Kerry's voting record before repeating what you've seen on Bush's commercials. Kerry has voted for the military several times. The "flip-flop" Bush speaks of is when Kerry chose not to vote for an AMENDED version of an initial bill that he did vote for. He voted against it because the initial version spoke of how to pay for the bill. That portion was struck by the Republican leadership, showing fiscal irresponsibility. I am personally glad that a congressman would not blindly support something that sinks our country into deficits that can't be erased unless my children and their children pay for it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul....

6. Kerry left after meeting the requirements? And this was wrong? He was wrong because the military had a policy that states that you can leave after being wounded 3 times? He fulfilled his entire enlistment. Why didn't Bush? Why didn't Bush even attempt to fly since he was a pilot? Its sad that you can defend that.

7. Get your facts straight. Somalia was inherited by Clinton. You never once heard him crying about Bush getting him stuck there. In answer to your question....yes, I want Kerry to be my president. Because I want the United States to be a part of the greater world, and not its police force. Last time I checked we are part of a military alliance that didn't even support our invasion of Iraq. I want our military used for noble purposes and not for an invasion based on a web of lies. How can you justify 900 of your brethren being dead for a war that was based on a lie? That's just sick. We are part of the United Nations. We are part of NATO. We are not ruled by them but you can't snub the whole world and then expect them to clean up our mess. That is not logical and the person we have leading us now doesn't understand that. Cowboy diplomacy is leading us down the path to ruination. You say Kerry is not fit for duty? Everything Bush has touched in his life has turned sour. And this is your man? Get your facts straight. Don't be a sheep. Don't vote for someone simply because his spin machine is telling you that all your friends are going to. You have the power of independent thought....use it! We have fought with allies in the Gulf War, in Korea, in both World Wars, and yes, even in Vietnam. Every generation understood that the United States is part of a larger global community. There was no shame in working with allies in those wars. There was the satisfaction that each of us were striving to achieve a better world. Why now do we chose to abandon the policies that were so historically successful? Ask yourself that. Ask yourself why Bush continues to push tax cuts when we can't afford the bills mounting from this war. Ask yourself why no one is being asked to sacrifice for our military, something that is so out of line with history that we are now plunging into record deficits. Ask yourself if you really want 4 more years of an incompetent Commander who ran on a platform of responsibility but then blames everyone else for the errors of his administration. That's not integrity. That's not leadership. That's cowardice. Do you remember your time in? What did you think of cowards?

Hey, I received two silver stars for my sorties in Vietnam. Yes medals were handed out alot more then they were in previous wars. My father survived Iwo Jima from landing to it's conquer. He was hit with shrapnel from a shell, but according to corpsmen they were just scratches. Did he receive a purple heart? No he didn't even get a medal recommendation for his extreme combat record. He was told to prepare for his next deployment which was Okinawa. He saw more combat in one day then Kerry or I saw in our whole lives. Kerry received 3 purple hearts for scratches. He had to put in for those medals you know. Just like in his mission brief he had to mention his "bravery" so he could get his Silver Star. Why would he deserve one for killing a VC while I had to wait 60 missions before I got my first medal? I had to help save the lives of almost 100 bomber crews before I was even mentioned in dispatches to my General. It's just a little fishy, don't you think. Maybe his family had something to do with that.

It sure is presidential what Kerry did, huh? Whine about your "wounds" until you get to go home, while your "Band of Brothers" stays and fights. Then when you go home you protest and throw some other peoples medals over the White House fence. One from a Vietnam vet and the other from a WWII vet or so Kerry said. Yup you are a veteran, and I guess you loved how Clinton treated the military like a social experiment, and like Bush sent our troops into harms way for political reasons, and unlike Bush, to distract America from his own problems.

Hanoi Jane and Lurch don't have a connection? What are you smoking? Did you hear any of the speeches that Jane gave, then introduced John Kerry to the audience. Yet they still don't know each other. Of course not, it's a vast right wing conspiracy. Jane and John had attended the same meetings of the VVAW. You are kind of rare though, a soldier who would support a soldier who called Americans "war criminals", threw medals away, which weren't even his, and after his return from Vietnam, while still serving in the Navy, jetted around with antiwar people. You must really love all of us war criminals. And with Bush and Hussein you can think anything you want, but this was about Kerry, Bush is a coward anyway.

Ok so you're a shrink, how nice. Just a high paid hand holder. This makes you an expert on Vietnam? So you deal with the soldiers who just can't do it cause they are scared? Remember Patton and how he handled "Battle Fatique", we need people like him back in charge. Do you like stealing money from the federal government with your hokie medicine. The veterans groups I know support Bush, but I don't. Why have you changed the subject by attacking Bush, this was after all a question of Kerrys' record. I admit it was extremely stressful flying around trying to get shot at by SAM sites so we could target and destroy them. I haven't suffered too much from it. After I was shot down, hunted and wounded by the VC for a week before being rescued by the Green Berets. I spent 2 weeks in Thailand in the hospital, and then returned to the 355th. Before being discharged, I wanted to stay but couldn't due to my wounds. The problem with the VA is that people who don't need it are taking advantage of it. Which is one reason some VA things must be cut. People need to get their act together and stand up for themselves. Bleeding hearts like you will destroy the military once Kerry is elected. Sure he says he has a plan, what is it? To gain the respect of the world? Bush and Kerry suck hard! No one is better then the other.

Kerrys' record which is sooo pro military:
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 B-1 and B-2 programs, voted nay 10/15/90
HR 5803 CQ vote #319 F-14 program, voted nay 10/26/90
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 F-15 and F-16 programs, voted nay 10/15/90
HR 2126 CQ vote #579 Harrier and Apache programs, voted nay 11/16/95
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 Against Patriot, Aegis, Trident missile system, M-1, Bradley FW, Tomahawk, voted nay 10/15/90

Yeah Kerry is for soldiers, but not when it comes to giving them the equipment they need. Check out his liberal voting record.

When did I ever say I was voting for Bush, I dislike him, but the basis of this whole thing was Kerry's record. It wasn't wrong for him to leave after being scratched three times, but if he wants to have his party parade himself as a hero, then why didn't he stay and fight with his men. I don't know if you are a combat vet, and if you are not then you can't really explain why his post war actions upset many, many vets. Did you notice at the convention, that they only brought out some of the vets who served with kerry, why not all of shipmates? Since he was such a hero, kind of makes you wonder.

Here is some thing I think you can all agree on. Whatever Kerry's situation in Vietnam was or wasn't, we can certainly all agree it was a hell of a lot more then Bush/Chenney/Rove/Etc was.. So, if you'd like to discuss Bush or Cheney's war record... lets, till then, I'd say Kerry has them way out-matched. Simple as that!

Here is some thing I think you can all agree on. Whatever Kerry's situation in Vietnam was or wasn't, we can certainly all agree it was a hell of a lot more then Bush/Chenney/Rove/Etc was.. So, if you'd like to discuss Bush or Cheney's war record... lets, till then, I'd say Kerry has them way out-matched. Simple as that!

At least the shrub didn't give moral aid to the enemy the way that arch-traitor Kerry did.

At least the shrub didn't give moral aid to the enemy the way that arch-traitor Kerry did.

No, the Shrub wouldn't of been able to, given he was protecting the skies of Texas against the Viet-cong.. lmao..

However, more recently he has sent over 900 Americans to their death and over 5000 injured for a war of choice..

I still think Kerry is beating him in the "integrity" department. He at least spoke his conscience and we all know now that the government was lying to the people about Vietnam, we also all know about Mi Lai, so at least Kerry was being honest, more then the Shrub can say!

So what? The point is the man won medals, wether he threw them away or not! If he threw them away then fine, that's his choice. But if he kept them, then that's fine too, because obviously they're his and he earned them. Using Kerry's medals as a reason not to vote for him is really lame.
The point is, he didn't throw them away, like the other poor goons he convinced to throw away.

No, the Shrub wouldn't of been able to, given he was protecting the skies of Texas against the Viet-cong.. lmao..

However, more recently he has sent over 900 Americans to their death and over 5000 injured for a war of choice..

I still think Kerry is beating him in the "integrity" department. He at least spoke his conscience and we all know now that the government was lying to the people about Vietnam, we also all know about Mi Lai, so at least Kerry was being honest, more then the Shrub can say!

Kerry was never honest. He said atrocities were common, which they weren't. They were rare, isolated instances. Many of them (like Cam Ne) were misinterpretations and not actual atrocities. And I have my doubts about My Lai. No two versions of that story are the same, which makes it at least a tad bit suspicious, doesn't it?

Kerry was never honest. He said atrocities were common, which they weren't. They were rare, isolated instances. Many of them (like Cam Ne) were misinterpretations and not actual atrocities. And I have my doubts about My Lai. No two versions of that story are the same, which makes it at least a tad bit suspicious, doesn't it?

No it doesn't.. because you see I'm a Canadian, we aren't wrapped in our flag, so, much came out about the Vietnam war in Canada and I suspect other countries that never seen the light of day in America.

No it doesn't.. because you see I'm a Canadian, we aren't wrapped in our flag, so, much came out about the Vietnam war in Canada and I suspect other countries that never seen the light of day in America.

Of course not. The arms have to be free to drink Beer; Eh? :p

No it doesn't.. because you see I'm a Canadian, we aren't wrapped in our flag, so, much came out about the Vietnam war in Canada and I suspect other countries that never seen the light of day in America.


Seriously now:

There is some truth to what she says.

As I have said, my buddy was a Ranger. He did two tours. He told me a few stories that still make me go :eek:

Now, when you say rare, do you mean rare as in the Abu Ghraib prison torture or rare as in the My Lai courts-martial?

A lot depends on how you define "atrocities" as well. For me, war in general is atrocious, so the mere fact of being there (Vietnam) qualifies as an atrocity. Certainly there are some actions that are worse than others--My Lai (which the Toledo Blade proved last year was not an isolated incident) comes to mind--but if war is an atrocity on its own, then soldiers did indeed commit atrocities while in the field.

The point is, he didn't throw them away, like the other poor goons he convinced to throw away.


But nobody can make you do anything.

A lot depends on how you define "atrocities" as well. For me, war in general is atrocious, so the mere fact of being there (Vietnam) qualifies as an atrocity. Certainly there are some actions that are worse than others--My Lai (which the Toledo Blade proved last year was not an isolated incident) comes to mind--but if war is an atrocity on its own, then soldiers did indeed commit atrocities while in the field.

Yes, there were atrocities, and some of them were extremely barbarous, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that not all vets are butchers and baby killers like Kerry says, and that most veterans did not commit atrocities.

When you leave the 9th grade maybe you'll learn.

I think you watch too much television.

Col. Decker is not real... ;)

Yes, there were atrocities, and some of them were extremely barbarous, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that not all vets are butchers and baby killers like Kerry says, and that most veterans did not commit atrocities.

I don't believe Kerry ever said all did.

I don't believe Kerry ever said all did.

True.

Hey, I received two silver stars for my sorties in Vietnam. Yes medals were handed out alot more then they were in previous wars. My father survived Iwo Jima from landing to it's conquer. He was hit with shrapnel from a shell, but according to corpsmen they were just scratches. Did he receive a purple heart? No he didn't even get a medal recommendation for his extreme combat record. He was told to prepare for his next deployment which was Okinawa. He saw more combat in one day then Kerry or I saw in our whole lives. Kerry received 3 purple hearts for scratches. He had to put in for those medals you know. Just like in his mission brief he had to mention his "bravery" so he could get his Silver Star. Why would he deserve one for killing a VC while I had to wait 60 missions before I got my first medal? I had to help save the lives of almost 100 bomber crews before I was even mentioned in dispatches to my General. It's just a little fishy, don't you think. Maybe his family had something to do with that.

Ok, so what you're now saying is that medals were handed out easier. I tend to disagree but we'll have to agree to disagree about that. But then you say that Kerry should be punished for rules that the military had put in place? If medals were easier to get, then why do you convict him for getting them? Sounds again like you blame the military and not Kerry.

The rest of that paragraph seems a little whiny and personal so we'll leave that be.

It sure is presidential what Kerry did, huh? Whine about your "wounds" until you get to go home, while your "Band of Brothers" stays and fights. Then when you go home you protest and throw some other peoples medals over the White House fence. One from a Vietnam vet and the other from a WWII vet or so Kerry said. Yup you are a veteran, and I guess you loved how Clinton treated the military like a social experiment, and like Bush sent our troops into harms way for political reasons, and unlike Bush, to distract America from his own problems.

We'll address your Kerry portion first. And we'll make it slow and simple. Kerry....followed....the....rules....that....the....military....set....forth. You don't point to anything he did in violation of the rules. Your complaint is that the rules allowed him to get something that others didn't have the fortune to get. I feel no animosity towards any of the protestors. Seems to me that Americans have freedom to do just that don't we?

Now, let's address the Clinton portion. Let's talk about distractions. Perhaps, if your beloved Republicans hadn't whined about Clinton wagging the dog, he would have been able to get bin Laden. But every attempt that was made and the Republicans screamed from every pulpit that this was just a simple distraction. Now they scream that Clinton didn't do enough. Do you remember Serbia? Want to talk patriotism? Remember the Republicans in Congress screaming that the mission in Serbia was a ruse? You know em, the same ones that today scream that to even say anything a degree from what Bush is saying is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I served while Clinton was president. I served while elder Bush was president. There was no difference between the two periods of time in my opinion. None, zero, zip, zilch. Since you address my lack of personal knowledge in Vietnam, I get to do the same with your lack of personal knowledge of serving during the Clinton administration. Works both ways sometimes, doesn't it?

Hanoi Jane and Lurch don't have a connection? What are you smoking? Did you hear any of the speeches that Jane gave, then introduced John Kerry to the audience. Yet they still don't know each other. Of course not, it's a vast right wing conspiracy. Jane and John had attended the same meetings of the VVAW. You are kind of rare though, a soldier who would support a soldier who called Americans "war criminals", threw medals away, which weren't even his, and after his return from Vietnam, while still serving in the Navy, jetted around with antiwar people. You must really love all of us war criminals. And with Bush and Hussein you can think anything you want, but this was about Kerry, Bush is a coward anyway.

Prove what you've said. I haven't heard the Bush administration prove it so I'm sure whatever you know they would be interested in as well for their commercials.

Now is where you get disgusting. Fine, two can play this game. You call me a rare soldier. You, sadly, are all too common: a cretin who lacks the ability to think for themselves. Someone who would blindly follow an immoral order than take the time to think about what you're doing. The military doesn't need robots, they need people. And no, I don't love war criminals. I also don't think that everyone in the military is a criminal. In fact, I would be hard pressed to find anyone I've ever known in the military to call a criminal. Because we all had a brain in addition to our pulses and took the time to think about what we did. I wouldn't support an actual war criminal and the erosion of your argument into a personal attack merely shows your lack to confront a difficult situation. Atta boy!

Ok so you're a shrink, how nice. Just a high paid hand holder. This makes you an expert on Vietnam? So you deal with the soldiers who just can't do it cause they are scared? Remember Patton and how he handled "Battle Fatique", we need people like him back in charge. Do you like stealing money from the federal government with your hokie medicine. The veterans groups I know support Bush, but I don't. Why have you changed the subject by attacking Bush, this was after all a question of Kerrys' record. I admit it was extremely stressful flying around trying to get shot at by SAM sites so we could target and destroy them. I haven't suffered too much from it. After I was shot down, hunted and wounded by the VC for a week before being rescued by the Green Berets. I spent 2 weeks in Thailand in the hospital, and then returned to the 355th. Before being discharged, I wanted to stay but couldn't due to my wounds. The problem with the VA is that people who don't need it are taking advantage of it. Which is one reason some VA things must be cut. People need to get their act together and stand up for themselves. Bleeding hearts like you will destroy the military once Kerry is elected. Sure he says he has a plan, what is it? To gain the respect of the world? Bush and Kerry suck hard! No one is better then the other.

You're damned right I'm a shrink. I don't shy away from intellectually challenged morons who can't comprehend what it is I actually do. High paid handholder? So I guess you're a low paid ditch digger then. Personally, I don't hold hands.

I steal money? Let's see, I work with people who have seen far more than your closed mind could even understand. Oh, you're a poor baby....you didn't get help when you got home so you begrudge all others who have. Cry me a river. Ooh, bring up Patton...good. So by your logic, you would have rid the military of Eisenhower, Marshall, Arnold, and MacArthur? All whom believed that Battle Fatigue (PTSD since I might have to hold your hand to show you the connections) was important enough to be treated. But since that doesn't fit into your black and white world you won't care. I'm sure no one you know ever needed to see someone who can help. Do you even know my rates? Or where I work for that matter? For you, I'd gladly raise them....or are you just mad because I had the ability to get my graduate degree and you're still stuck with your GED?

I didn't change the subject. You attacked one major candidate and I responded with charges against the other. But since you're now stating that you don't support either candidate, I must assume you are either voting for a 3rd party candidate that no one has heard of or have assumed your right to apathy by not doing a damned thing. Either way...good job on not making a difference.

And what a plan you push. I would normally show some sympathy for someone who was wounded but as you show none for your fellow brethren, nor will I show any for you. Ooh, you were hurt and had to leave the hospital. Should we fill the bottle now or wait until you're finished crying? What is your plan? Cut some things with the VA? Wow....did you spend all night with the crayons drafting that or did you actually look into it? First off, I'm not a bleeding heart. Second off, I would rather see a bleeding heart than none. I believe I've mentioned in the past my frustration with the VA system. Sorry you weren't around to read it, though since I didn't animate the post you probably wouldn't have understood in the first place.

Kerrys' record which is sooo pro military:
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 B-1 and B-2 programs, voted nay 10/15/90
HR 5803 CQ vote #319 F-14 program, voted nay 10/26/90
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 F-15 and F-16 programs, voted nay 10/15/90
HR 2126 CQ vote #579 Harrier and Apache programs, voted nay 11/16/95
S. 3189 CQ vote #273 Against Patriot, Aegis, Trident missile system, M-1, Bradley FW, Tomahawk, voted nay 10/15/90

Yeah Kerry is for soldiers, but not when it comes to giving them the equipment they need. Check out his liberal voting record.

5 votes??? FIVE VOTES? This is your proof for someone who has been in Congress for close to 2 decades? FIVE VOTES???? I'd like to give you an excert of an article written by Fred Kaplan:

Looking at the weapons that the RNC says Kerry voted to cut, a good case could be made, certainly at the time, that some of them (the B-2 bomber and President Reagan's "Star Wars" missile-defense program) should have been cut. As for the others (the M-1 tank and the F-14, F-15, and F-16 fighter planes, among others), Kerry didn't really vote to cut them.

The claim about these votes was made in the Republican National Committee "Research Briefing" of Feb. 22. The report lists 13 weapons systems that Kerry voted to cut—the ones cited above, as well as Patriot air-defense missiles, Tomahawk cruise missiles, and AH64 Apache helicopters, among others.

It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically. [But, then, there never are. That's not how it works. -ed.]

***

In other words, Kerry was one of 16 senators (including five Republicans) to vote against a defense appropriations bill 14 years ago. He was also one of an unspecified number of senators to vote against a conference report on a defense bill nine years ago. The RNC takes these facts and extrapolates from them that he voted against a dozen weapons systems that were in those bills. The Republicans could have claimed, with equal logic, that Kerry voted to abolish the entire U.S. armed forces, but that might have raised suspicions. Claiming that he opposed a list of specific weapons systems has an air of plausibility. On close examination, though, it reeks of rank dishonesty.

Oops. Thanks for playing.

When did I ever say I was voting for Bush, I dislike him, but the basis of this whole thing was Kerry's record. It wasn't wrong for him to leave after being scratched three times, but if he wants to have his party parade himself as a hero, then why didn't he stay and fight with his men. I don't know if you are a combat vet, and if you are not then you can't really explain why his post war actions upset many, many vets. Did you notice at the convention, that they only brought out some of the vets who served with kerry, why not all of shipmates? Since he was such a hero, kind of makes you wonder.

Wow, they only brought out 12 people. Gosh...what a travesty! I'm sure the rest are eagerly awaiting the RNC so they can dispute every good thing ever said about Kerry. When that happens, come talk to me again ok?

For the record, I am a combat vet. For the record, I did win medals while in combat. I have made it quite clear in threads past that I am not willing at this time to discuss in a public thread my experiences. However, I would be willing to talk about those experiences more privately with anyone who asked so long as they agreed not to post any into the forums. The fact of the matter is that I chose not to have people reading over my life and judging my worth based on a sliver of knowledge.

Now, unless you have more instructive things to say in return to me, I suggest we call it quits. If you would like to discuss yours and my ideas in a more positive fashion without reducing it into mere vulgarities, so be it. If you prefer to continue to attempt to bolster your arguments by name calling and personal attacks, then keep on living in your little secluded world. Have a pleasant day.

bump

bump
Now why did you have to do that?