NationStates Jolt Archive

While I am known to many as a person with very liberal views, I take a departure from my liberalism when confronted with the issue of abortion. Over the years, my position has changed drastically from pro-choice to pro-life. I believe that you must look at this issue from a moral point of view. A popular belief is that a person is truly alive when one is born. Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary defines life and the state of being alive as “human activity; time when something functions; animated; full of life; being in existence.” People who are pro-choice argue that a person is not deemed alive until they are born, but is a person not alive and functioning when it develops a heart and a brain? Is it not a living organism? Is it not full of life and growing into a complete human being? How can you not say that a human embryo is not alive if it has such traits? Purposefully killing a human, no matter what form it is in, is cold blooded murder and is immoral. Shame on those who support the intentional killing of human lives just because they don’t want to be responsible for their actions that may have resulted in the creation of another innocent human life.

If abortion is made legal, it would send a resonating message to our teens that they don’t have to take responsibility for their actions and that it is ok to have unprotected sex because if they were to get pregnant, all they have to do is get an abortion and not be stuck with the task of taking care of a human. We must make abortion illegal on the federal level because we must send a clear message to our teens, they must take responsibility for their actions. Don’t do the deed unless you are prepared and ready to pay the price that comes along with it. Making abortion illegal on the federal level also forces teens to use either contraceptives or condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancy. This also has an added bonus as it would reduce the number of STD’s that are transmitted each year and it would force teens to have sex responsibly or just not have sex at all.

Im sure many pro-choice people who read this editorial will say that a person cannot be told what they can or cannot do with their bodies, but abortion affects another human being. While the human organism isn’t fully developed and is inside the mother’s body, there can be no doubt about it that the organism is alive, and to say otherwise is just plain asinine and idiotic. While it functions independently from the mother, it is not dead, nor is it not full of life. There is nothing that can justify the argument that an independent functioning organism that has a brain and a heart is not alive. If it isn’t alive, then what the hell is it? So, once again I ask the question, is abortion moral? No it is not, and to say otherwise is iniquitous and immoral in itself.

Making abortion illegal will break out another argument, this time with the females. They will ask, what if they don’t want the baby because it puts a damper on their dreams and goals? Well, first of all, I say you shouldn’t have had unprotected sex in the first place if it was consensual. Getting pregnant is the price you have to pay for taking that action. That is not to say that their plans for their life ahead are in jeopardy. If they have to take care of a child, there are plenty of other sources to get money to not only take care of your child, but pay for any schooling that you may want to go after while you have a child. They come in the form of government grants and loans. I see no excuse what so ever that a pregnant or teenage mother cant go to college and be able to pay for it and continue with her life plans. The money is free and it is there, and all they have to do is find it. Get up, look, and get the money. Don’t complain to the government or anyone else about your dilemma that you caused by getting pregnant in the first place (unless you were raped, then we can be a lot more lenient).

Written by Kaimoni Sutton. Copyright 2004

If you wish to use any portion of this editorial (published by me online and elsewhere), contact me first for permission.

I am probaly more conservative than anyone thats on this board, but I am pro-choice.

I really don't care if it's moral or not.

Morals are subjective anyway.

Why can't we just poke the fetus and see if it reacts.

It reacts = no abortion
It doesn't = ABORTED!

Morals are personal..

Well, I don't consider life the issue; it's sentience I'm concerned about. I kill thousands or millions of bacteria every time I wash my hands, and it's no skin off my nose. Which is why I'm hesitant about late-term/partial-birth abortion (but it's worth noting it's a procedure only performed in very extreme circumstances--where it's necessary--and therefore is not worth outlawing).

I also don't have an issue with ending sentient life under all circumstances. What if your pet dies and is in excruciating pain, and you want to put him out of his misery? Abortion can be viewed, in some sense, as preemptive euthanasia.

Furthermore, life does not begin at conception; it begins before conception. Sperm and eggs are alive, and they have the potential to become fertilized eggs. Should a woman have unprotected sex or store her eggs every time she ovulates, to avoid wasting eggs? Should a man do the same with his sperm? (In both cases, obviously much more so with men, some will still be wasted.) Is birth control immoral?

It's really a blurry issue if you're concerned about not killing nonsentient cells that have the potential to become human beings. And it is also a blurry issue what a human is, because we haven't defined it, and we'll never agree on a definition if we don't arbitrarily draw a line. But since it's arbitrary, we can't rely on the definition of what human is for our morality here. Of course, morality is not inherently particularly rational, so I don't know exactly where that leaves us.

I wonder if you've ever had an abortion, or been close to someone who has, and know what people go through. It isnt a light thing people do instead of contraception, that comment is just crass. Also many teen moms have the option of abortion in my country and dont do it, some do, so dont stereo-type based on socio-economic factors.

Also one has to ask the question what is moral conduct and what is not. Is it more moral to force people to give birth against their will so that their child can then become a ward of the state? Perhaps.. Is it ethical to deny them medical treatment when they need it. Of course not... In this era of depression and suicide epidemics is it reasonable to deny women the support they need but just say okay do as I want you to do because I'm morally superior? I think society tends to wash our hands of these people as long as they dont offend us.

Also people who start talking about the will of god on this matter concern me. In one part of the bible it actually says child birth is a sin.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Leviticus+12:1-8

And giving birth to a girl is twice as bad as giving birth to a boy. Actually in some countries there is an epidemic in the infanticide of baby girls (India, China). So it doesnt take abortion or even euthanasia do devalue human life.

There is a fundamental belief underpinning our society known as Utilitarianism - ie. the best judge of what is in our own best interest is ourself, not someone else. If we deny people the right of self determination we are denying our freedom.

As the world has come so close to a third world war over ideas of freedom it would seem self-defeating to deny basic civil rights to those citizens who are faced with the terrible choice of abortion. We should respect their privacy to make their decision on their own.

i don't want to get drawn in to yet another abortion debate, but i just have to say one thing:

i am sick to death of people claiming that having an abortion isn't taking responsibility. anybody who says that has no idea what they are talking about, and deserves to be immediately laughed at or ignored. abortion is a difficult process, made more difficult by ridiculous restrictions and horrible societal attitudes, and is in no way an "easy out." as somebody who has worked at a inner-city clinic, i say this from personal experience with women of all ages who made the difficult and responsible choice to abort.

personally, i think abortion is about a bazillion times more responsible than carrying a fetus to term with the intention of giving it up for adoption; by aborting, you prevent a human consciousness from ever arising, and you take full responsibility for your situation onto your shoulders. you bear the pain, the stigma, and all the difficulty on your own. by carrying a fetus to term and then giving it up, you bring a consciousness into the world only to foist it off on somebody else, taking no responsibility at all for either your original "oops" pregnancy or for the life that you permitted to come into the world by your refusal to abort.

anybody who has EVER claimed that abortion doesn't constitute taking responsibility owes an apology to every woman and girl who has had an abortion. they should apologize both for their ignorance and for their arrogance in speaking about a serious topic they clearly did not take the time to understand before passing sentence.

Also each form of contraception has a chance of not working. Condoms break approximately 3% of the time, 1 in 30. The pill is about the same. The rhythm method is a good way to get pregnant.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.

Banning abortion is the ultimate white mans way of saying to women 'I am better than you, I am morally superior to you and my opinions are so much better than yours that I should be able to govern the functioning of your internal organs.'

He hit upon a very good point in saying that the issue here lies not in the definition of "alive," the terms of murder, or any other ridiculous clouding of the real issue that the liberal side has brought into the debate. Sometimes responsibilities transcend rights, something that the pro-choice side (and indeed the liberal ideology in general) doesn't seem to want to come to terms with. I'm not speaking on any specific basis. Indeed there are shining examples of conservatives shirking responsibilities. On an ideological basis, however, the liberal side has always tended to give handouts where handouts are not deserved.

In any case, the issue here is not any of those above-mentioned things, but on the fact that abortion is just another way for someone who has made a poor choice to escape from it. Way to teach our youth responsibility! Go out and have all the sex you want, Susie! If something goes wrong, we'll just get it fixed! There's no planning ahead, no thoughts of why actions may or may not be in the kid's own best interest. It's all 100% pure, unbridled stupidity.

The bottom line is this: you get yourself into a scrape, you get yourself out. There shouldn't be anyone there standing by to hold your hand because you aren't old enough to cross the street on your own.

I wonder if you've ever had an abortion, or been close to someone who has, and know what people go through. It isnt a light thing people do instead of contraception, that comment is just crass. Also many teen moms have the option of abortion in my country and dont do it, some do, so dont stereo-type based on socio-economic factors.

Also one has to ask the question what is moral conduct and what is not. Is it more moral to force people to give birth against their will so that their child can then become a ward of the state? Perhaps.. Is it ethical to deny them medical treatment when they need it. Of course not... In this era of depression and suicide epidemics is it reasonable to deny women the support they need but just say okay do as I want you to do because I'm morally superior? I think society tends to wash our hands of these people as long as they dont offend us.

Also people who start talking about the will of god on this matter concern me. In one part of the bible it actually says child birth is a sin.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Leviticus+12:1-8

And giving birth to a girl is twice as bad as giving birth to a boy. Actually in some countries there is an epidemic in the infanticide of baby girls (India, China). So it doesnt take abortion or even euthanasia do devalue human life.

There is a fundamental belief underpinning our society known as Utilitarianism - ie. the best judge of what is in our own best interest is ourself, not someone else. If we deny people the right of self determination we are denying our freedom.

As the world has come so close to a third world war over ideas of freedom it would seem self-defeating to deny basic civil rights to those citizens who are faced with the terrible choice of abortion. We should respect their privacy to make their decision on their own.

Nevermind. (insert turtle here)

Also each form of contraception has a chance of not working. Condoms break approximately 3% of the time, 1 in 30. The pill is about the same. The rhythm method is a good way to get pregnant.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.

Oh boy, a field day!

What about using both? That way, you've just cut your chances down to about 1 in 60! Planning ahead. What about abstaining? Did you think about that?

Furthermore, life does not begin at conception; it begins before conception. Sperm and eggs are alive, and they have the potential to become fertilized eggs.


Are you kidding? Equating sperm with sentience is like saying my lunch of salad sandwiches is sentient because one day through my metabolic processes some of those same proteins may one day become a baby.

Originally Posted by Ragnoria
I wonder if you've ever had an abortion, or been close to someone who has, and know what people go through. It isnt a light thing people do instead of contraception, that comment is just crass. Also many teen moms have the option of abortion in my country and dont do it, some do, so dont stereo-type based on socio-economic factors.

sorry if I hurt anyone's feeling by say this but I think abortion needs to be legal. Just from personal experince I've seen too many people screw up any chance they had of ever becoming something in the world because they had a kid first. I don't believe it's really a question is if abortion is moral so much as is it used properly. I support the author of this thread in saying there needs to be a price for your actions but I don't believe it should be paid for the rest of your life. I believe that teens are responsible for their actions (Even though we are morons at time). If abortion ever was made legal I think there should be a few rules as to the situations. And one last thing, (sorry Credonia but I but I really wanted to let my opinion be known on this one) I don't think that abortion is close to intentional murder. As cold as it sounds intentional murder is something everyday for hundreds maybe thousands of different reasons everyday. It's kind of hard to say abortion isn't moral on those grounds because then your also saying that every other reason is just as immoral. It may just be my way of thinking but that's like saying war, weapons, and self-presurvation are immoral.

Banning abortion is the ultimate white mans way of saying to women 'I am better than you, I am morally superior to you and my opinions are so much better than yours that I should be able to govern the functioning of your internal organs.'

Where did this white man crap come in? More minorities in a given society have abortions. Look at Indias caste system. Islam. Buddism. Hebrew. Catholics. (insert turtle)

Banning abortion is the ultimate white mans way of saying to women 'I am better than you, I am morally superior to you and my opinions are so much better than yours that I should be able to govern the functioning of your internal organs.'

Sir, what sort of crack have you been smoking?

Oh boy, a field day!

What about using both? That way, you've just cut your chances down to about 1 in 60! Planning ahead. What about abstaining? Did you think about that?

i personally used both condoms and the pill, and still became pregnant by accident. i ended up miscarrying (because i was still on the pill) before i even knew i was pregnant, but it's proof that that 1 in 60 happens to even the most careful people. and yes, i have thought about abstaining, and don't want to...why should i?

Sir, what sort of crack have you been smoking?

Only the best kind.

How many feminist or womens rights groups do you hear calling for a ban on abortion..... None. Thats because the prolife lobby is dominted by masculine interests like our good buddies in the catholic church.

Also each form of contraception has a chance of not working. Condoms break approximately 3% of the time, 1 in 30. The pill is about the same. The rhythm method is a good way to get pregnant.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.


Im not saying that getting pregnant is irresponsible. Im not saying having sex is irresponsible. hell, everyone knows accidents happen and you can get pregnant accidentally. If you do, well im sorry but your just going to have to live with it. You need not kill another human being. If you dont want the child, put it up for adoption. The child need not die becuase of an accident that was made. In essence, your punishing the child for that accident. It didnt ask to be brought into the world, but you have no right to take it out of this world either. As i stated in my editorial, thats just cold blooded murder.

Im not saying that getting pregnant is irresponsible. Im not saying having sex is irresponsible. hell, everyone knows accidents happen and you can get pregnant accidentally. If you do, well im sorry but your just going to have to live with it. You need not kill another human being. If you dont want the child, put it up for adoption. The child need not die becuase of an accident that was made. In essence, your punishing the child for that accident. It didnt ask to be brought into the world, but you have no right to take it out of this world either. As i stated in my editorial, thats just cold blooded murder.

It's not a human being.

if it had a brain and a heart it is.

hec, it may not be a fully complete human being, but its a developing one

Only the best kind.

How many feminist or womens rights groups do you hear calling for a ban on abortion..... None. Thats because the prolife lobby is dominted by masculine interests like our good buddies in the catholic church.

Always so quick to point the finger at groups like the church. Let me tell you something, my friend. I am by no means a Catholic, nor am I a Bible-beating Christian of any sort. Instead, I am a young American man who understands what it means to be responsible.

Womens' rights groups want access to abortion simply to strike a blow for (what's their cause again?) women's rights. Perhaps these women who think that they can use a way out should have listened to the advice of their older (and far wiser, trust me on this one) parents, that the risks are just too great.

And this, Bottle, is precisely the reason you should abstain. There is nothing wrong with a strong sense of self-restraint. If I can keep it in my pants, then why can't you? I suppose you'd also argue that smokers have rights, too? Or do you see that in a different light, perhaps because you have enough of that same self-restraint to realize that it's a greater risk to you than it's worth?

I'm pro-choice on this. In case you haven't noticed, the population of the world is approximately 6.3 billion, with a projected population of 9 billion in 2050. Think of the strain on the world's resources the extra people will make. However, if the unborn child doesn't wish to be aborted, he/she need only ask.

You guys can say what you want about rights and morals and things, but my opinion, disregarding morals and rights, is that abortion is murder. A fetus or even a zygote is 'alive' from the moment it is conceived, even though it may not be breathing or walking or talking. That's my take.

Sorry, I don't know how to do quotes yet, but Trotterstan said this:
How many feminist or womens rights groups do you hear calling for a ban on abortion..... None. Thats because the prolife lobby is dominted by masculine interests like our good buddies in the catholic church.

What's wrong with being a Catholic I'd like to know.

[QUOTE=Stumpchasers]Always so quick to point the finger at groups like the church. Let me tell you something, my friend. I am by no means a Catholic, nor am I a Bible-beating Christian of any sort. Instead, I am a young American man who understands what it means to be responsible.

Womens' rights groups want access to abortion simply to strike a blow for (what's their cause again?) women's rights. Perhaps these women who think that they can use a way out should have listened to the advice of their older (and far wiser, trust me on this one) parents, that the risks are just too great.
[QUOTE]

I think you have a very strange conception of what the feminist movement stands for, young man. I cant help notice that you prove my point in that you are a man and you claim to know what is in the best interests of women.

I'm pro-choice on this. In case you haven't noticed, the population of the world is approximately 6.3 billion, with a projected population of 9 billion in 2050. Think of the strain on the world's resources the extra people will make. However, if the unborn child doesn't wish to be aborted, he/she need only ask.


no need for cynical comments :rolleyes:

You guys can say what you want about rights and morals and things, but my opinion, disregarding morals and rights, is that abortion is murder. A fetus or even a zygote is 'alive' from the moment it is conceived, even though it may not be breathing or walking or talking. That's my take.

Sorry, I don't know how to do quotes yet, but Trotterstan said this:
How many feminist or womens rights groups do you hear calling for a ban on abortion..... None. Thats because the prolife lobby is dominted by masculine interests like our good buddies in the catholic church.

What's wrong with being a Catholic I'd like to know.

Nothing is wrong with being catholic but the exclusively male hierarchy of the catholic church should not pretend to know what is right for a woman to do with her body.

Yes a zygote is alive but so is a virus.

Nothing is wrong with being catholic but the exclusively male hierarchy of the catholic church should not pretend to know what is right for a woman to do with her body.

Yes a zygote is alive but so is a virus.

And you should not pretend to know more than your parents about responsibility.

I don't particularily want to get into a big argument about religion, so I'm just going to hop off to bed.

And Trotterstan, I accept the fact that viruses are as 'alive' as zygotes. Good point, but I'm still right.

Im not directing this to anyone, but for the official record...i could care less about masculine and male assertion and male "control" over womens bodies. This is an issue of morality and an issue of whether or not abortion constitutes murder (and it does). Abortions still affect the lives of others (the unborn child/fetus). It kills them. If that isnt murder, then i dont know what the hell is.

objective reality

And you should not pretend to know more than your parents about responsibility.

On the same note why do you claim to know more than my parents about responsibility or for that matter, more than me?

Well I am female and I think abortion is murder. I have been trying to conceive for over a year. I was forced into an abortion when I was just 12, I was raped and the boy's father took me to an abortion clinic and they took away the tiny life that was forming inside of me. I still wonder what the baby would have been like if it lived. I know I would have likely giving it up for adoption but I wouldn't be guilt ridden as I am now. In the past year I have been pregnant twice and lost the baby twice, I wonder mant times "what if that was my only chance to bring a life into the world." Not all women approve of abortion and I am one who wouldn't mind seeing it banned.

I think a better question would be to ask if abortion is really immoral? Since childbirth is not without it's risks, (even in this day and age it is one of the top 10 killers of women under 25) I am hesitant to proclaim it as such and don't feel it is within societies right to control.

Well I am female and I think abortion is murder. I have been trying to conceive for over a year. I was forced into an abortion when I was just 12, I was raped and the boy's father took me to an abortion clinic and they took away the tiny life that was forming inside of me. I still wonder what the baby would have been like if it lived. I know I would have likely giving it up for adoption but I wouldn't be guilt ridden as I am now. In the past year I have been pregnant twice and lost the baby twice, I wonder mant times "what if that was my only chance to bring a life into the world." Not all women approve of abortion and I am one who wouldn't mind seeing it banned.

sorry for your losses. Just keep hope and good luck

I've always leaned a bit to the left, but one day I got to thinking of myself as anti-death. Abortion ends a life, weather it is born or not. When put this way, the only moral queation is: Is it right to end a life?

Now, of course, there are several arguments and exceptions for that question, but it at least consolidates some problems.

Well I am female and I think abortion is murder. I have been trying to conceive for over a year. I was forced into an abortion when I was just 12, I was raped and the boy's father took me to an abortion clinic and they took away the tiny life that was forming inside of me. I still wonder what the baby would have been like if it lived. I know I would have likely giving it up for adoption but I wouldn't be guilt ridden as I am now. In the past year I have been pregnant twice and lost the baby twice, I wonder mant times "what if that was my only chance to bring a life into the world." Not all women approve of abortion and I am one who wouldn't mind seeing it banned.

I am truly sad because your story is tragic. I am a man and i respect absolutely your right to excercise your own judgement about abortion for yourself. I dont think however that your situation gives you any more moral authority to pass judgement on others. I would however like to comment on the fact that you are fortunate to live in a society that tolerates legal abortion. Many rape victims in other parts of the world are forced to have illegal, unsafe and potentially life threatening abortions which, if they are lucky enough to survive, can prevent them from ever conceiving again.

I'm pro-death.

On the same note why do you claim to know more than my parents about responsibility or for that matter, more than me?

Perhaps if you hadn't stormed into the argument pointing fingers at men in general, I would not have taken offense, and therefore broken your argument down to the finer details that you don't seem to want to discuss.

If you'd care to point out the very line in which I accused your parents of knowing less of responsibility than I do, I will gladly apologize. Until then, please refrain from assuming that because you can point fingers and call a person "young man," you are indeed superior.

Has anyone thought about what banning abortion would do for the economy?
If all the "council-estate" foetuses end up being born to teenage mothers and growing up, they'll all either be looked after by the mother who won't be able to cope and may use NHS care for any mental issues induced by it. She will probably become a benefit scrounger and lose out on higher education because she will be too busy looking after the kids. Or perhaps the children will be packed off to state-run care homes. Either way they'll grow up and sponge off benefits themselves because of their unfit upbringing.
All this will bring the country further and further into economic collapse, especially when these unwanted children become disruptive in schools and affect the education of those around them, thus making the entire future generation like them and consigned to the same fate.

I've always leaned a bit to the left, but one day I got to thinking of myself as anti-death. Abortion ends a life, weather it is born or not. When put this way, the only moral queation is: Is it right to end a life?

Now, of course, there are several arguments and exceptions for that question, but it at least consolidates some problems.

One thing i have learned is that it is usually wrong to try and apply black or white reasoning to a situations that are almost always far from it. The only people from whom i would be prepared to accept this sort of argument would be strict vegetarians. Humans are not after all so different from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Abortion is not immoral. Are all of you conservatives prepared to pay for all of these unwanted children? I seriously doubt it.

Has anyone thought about what banning abortion would do for the economy?
If all the "council-estate" foetuses end up being born to teenage mothers and growing up, they'll all either be looked after by the mother who won't be able to cope and may use NHS care for any mental issues induced by it. She will probably become a benefit scrounger and lose out on higher education because she will be too busy looking after the kids. Or perhaps the children will be packed off to state-run care homes. Either way they'll grow up and sponge off benefits themselves because of their unfit upbringing.
All this will bring the country further and further into economic collapse, especially when these unwanted children become disruptive in schools and affect the education of those around them, thus making the entire future generation like them and consigned to the same fate.

you listening to yourself? putting money before human life? not gonna be my life philosophy

One thing i have learned is that it is usually wrong to try and apply black or white reasoning to a situations that are almost always far from it. The only people from whom i would be prepared to accept this sort of argument would be strict vegetarians. Humans are not after all so different from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Except that the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't go off having irresponsible and unprotected sex and then making baby soup inside the females' bodies, now does it?

Abortion is not immoral. Are all of you conservatives prepared to pay for all of these unwanted children? I seriously doubt it.

Simple answer: scrap welfare.

In case any of you haven't realized ( ;) ), I am from the school of making something of yourself without handouts. Why should I be forced to pay for others' irresponsible decisions?

Let's steer clear from that debate. Abortion is much more interesting.

I am truly sad because your story is tragic. I am a man and i respect absolutely your right to excercise your own judgement about abortion for yourself. I dont think however that your situation gives you any more moral authority to pass judgement on others. I would however like to comment on the fact that you are fortunate to live in a society that tolerates legal abortion. Many rape victims in other parts of the world are forced to have illegal, unsafe and potentially life threatening abortions which, if they are lucky enough to survive, can prevent them from ever conceiving again.
Do you know what it feels like to wake up because you thought you heard a baby screaming or when for 3 months a life is growing inside of you and in a moment it is forever gone? You can't understand that because you are male, I can't understand it either but I live with the girl you chided. She is my fiance and you have no idea the torture she goes through.

When you carry something inside you almost 9 months, then it really is your choice. Is abortion moral? Why you think it isn't moral?

In my country abortions are well controlled and you can't have abortion just because you want to. You need to speak with doctor first. There is also time limit when you can have abortion.

It is pointless to share more opinions because Credonia already told that if you don't share his opinion you are immoral.

No point to answer because there was no clear, logical question. Just some angry rant...

Pointless Credonia, pointless...

" I see no excuse what so ever that a pregnant or teenage mother cant go to college and be able to pay for it and continue with her life plans."

What you do with the baby when you are in college???

I've answered to many abortion debates but your abortion post is the most immoral of them.

you listening to yourself? putting money before human life? not gonna be my life philosophy
One foetus's life affects one family. The economy affects everybody. When you've lost your job because of a recession and you're living off beetroot and whatever else the local grocery store has to sell to stay in profit, I do hope you have fun.

Hmph yet again.

The short of it.

Unless you have been confronted with the issue, then you really can't pass judgement.

One thing nobody ever seem to raise are life ending diseases or severe dibilitating diseases.

CF and downs for example.

CF is more or less a death sentence. What life happens(speaking of the milder form) requires a team of doctors for breathing and a few for eating. If you are lucky you might make teenage years. If you are really lucky, a young adult.

This issue we had the unfortunate event.

Downs Syndrome is severly dibilitating.

Story 1) Family has the ideal child. Bright, outgoing, confident. Generally the type of kid people want. Child 2 is born with downs. All the families attention goes to taking care of the child. Wife had to stop working and they are about to loose the home. The boy is a mere shell of what he once was. Shy and a loaner. Basically forgotten.

Story 2) Going to a hospice. In a room was a dying 83 year old woman. Her 40 year old downs son was with her as they didn't have any money to place him somewhere.

The amount of "contraception" abortions is not as high as people "estimate" it to be.

One foetus's life affects one family. The economy affects everybody. When you've lost your job because of a recession and you're living off beetroot and whatever else the local grocery store has to sell to stay in profit, I do hope you have fun.
If people weren't charged so much for adoption, there would be no real need for abortion unless the mother's life was in actual jeapordy.

Do you know what it feels like to wake up because you thought you heard a baby screaming or when for 3 months a life is growing inside of you and in a moment it is forever gone? You can't understand that because you are male, I can't understand it either but I live with the girl you chided. She is my fiance and you have no idea the torture she goes through.

Easy, he wasn't even talking about that when he disagreed with her.

And what about the instance of rape? you all seem to have been dancing around that issue. If it is rape, the mother should not have to go through with the pregnancy. She already would have to deal with the trauma, and the threat of STDs.

Or you can say abortion is 100% NOT OK. saying that a girl should have to deal with something that is not her fault. then again, if you think rape is an exception, you're saying baby killing is ok!

and it is.

If you've ever heard anything about the actual process of an abortion, you'd know its not pretty. just look around http://rotten.com for some abortion pics. its painful for the mother too. honestly, i would not want to have an abortion, unless in the case of rape.

Even the mormons condone abortion in the instance of rape.

Perhaps if you hadn't stormed into the argument pointing fingers at men in general, I would not have taken offense, and therefore broken your argument down to the finer details that you don't seem to want to discuss.

If you'd care to point out the very line in which I accused your parents of knowing less of responsibility than I do, I will gladly apologize. Until then, please refrain from assuming that because you can point fingers and call a person "young man," you are indeed superior.

jeez, you do anger easily dont you. Young man was the label you gave yourself so dont whinge to me about that one. As for the comment regarding my parents, it was you that brought them into this debate by suggesting that i was under the pretension that i was wiser than they are (a point i deny making in the first place). I merely felt it appropriate to reply and in doing so note that while it would be foolish to assume that i am wiser than my parents, it would be equally foolish for you to imply that you are wiser than my parents. You clearly think that you are because my mother would find your views as abhorrent as i do.

My point is that it is fallacious (thats a big word you might have to look it up) for anyone to assume that the possess some amazing clarity that accords them greater moral insight than other people and allows them to state with confidence what is wrong and what is right. With this in mind, no one, least of all men who are only ever bystanders in the abortion debate, should try and lay claim to another persons body and prevent them from doing as they see fit.

And what about the instance of rape? you all seem to have been dancing around that issue. If it is rape, the mother should not have to go through with the pregnancy. She already would have to deal with the trauma, and the threat of STDs.

Or you can say abortion is 100% NOT OK. saying that a girl should have to deal with something that is not her fault. then again, if you think rape is an exception, you're saying baby killing is ok!

and it is.

If you've ever heard anything about the actual process of an abortion, you'd know its not pretty. just look around http://rotten.com for some abortion pics. its painful for the mother too. honestly, i would not want to have an abortion, unless in the case of rape.
My girlfriend was raped and was forced into an abortion. She is still reeling from the loss of the child. All the trauma of the rape it self is gone but the memory of finding out she was pregnant and then being forced to lose it is destroying her. I think in an instance of rape.... maybe it should be allowed if that is what the mother really wants but she should see what it would look like before having it done and I don't mean when it is still just a tiny mass of blood but when it already has hands and all.

Well I am female and I think abortion is murder. I have been trying to conceive for over a year. I was forced into an abortion when I was just 12, I was raped and the boy's father took me to an abortion clinic and they took away the tiny life that was forming inside of me. I still wonder what the baby would have been like if it lived. I know I would have likely giving it up for adoption but I wouldn't be guilt ridden as I am now. In the past year I have been pregnant twice and lost the baby twice, I wonder mant times "what if that was my only chance to bring a life into the world." Not all women approve of abortion and I am one who wouldn't mind seeing it banned.

Something doesn't quite click.

Did the boys father have power of attorney over you?

He doesn't have the power to give consent for you to have an abortion.

Unless I'm mistaken about something.

Do you know what it feels like to wake up because you thought you heard a baby screaming or when for 3 months a life is growing inside of you and in a moment it is forever gone? You can't understand that because you are male, I can't understand it either but I live with the girl you chided. She is my fiance and you have no idea the torture she goes through.

I dont chide your fiance for expressing her opinion or describing her personal opinion. Far from it, i congratulate her on expressing herself in such a clear manner when discussing something so infinitely personal and painful in the public eye.

It does seem strange though that someone so upset about having been denied personal choice in the matter of her own abortion would advocate the removal of personal choice in others.

Something doesn't quite click.

Did the boys father have power of attorney over you?

He doesn't have the power to give consent for you to have an abortion.

Unless I'm mistaken about something.
She told me that the man was a cop and threatened her and her family if they tried to fight to keep the baby. Her father was in trouble for something minor and the man said he would lock her father away if she didn't give in. Her family is everything to her.

God I hate cops and how they can blackmail and extort you....

She told me that the man was a cop and threatened her and her family if they tried to fight to keep the baby. Her father was in trouble for something minor and the man said he would lock her father away if she didn't give in. Her family is everything to her.

God I hate cops and how they can blackmail and extort you....

Thank you for the clarification.

Abortion is not immoral. Are all of you conservatives prepared to pay for all of these unwanted children? I seriously doubt it.

As I respond, I not only respond to the quoted post above, but to all who claim abortion as a horrible step that has to be taken instead of child birth.

Adoption. For those that say abortion isn't the easy way out, it's easier than adoption? If yes, then it's the easy way out. If no, then why bother, give the kid up for adoption.

Adoption. For those that say they don't have the life or money or "insertshithere" to raise a kid. (Regardless of the millions of dollars in aide money from the government every year)... Give it up to a loving family that has those things and no chance for conception on their own.

For those that would say: orphanage is horrible yada yada yada... take a look at the waiting list for a newborn baby adoption. If you're willing to give your child up for adoption before birth, there will be a family waiting to adopt it.

For those that say child birth is a top 10 killer, you realise that this is only if you include aborted child birth? Abortion by percentile is a far worse situation than natural child birth. Those that aren't killed, are often permently scarred and injured, both physicly and mentally. Many that have abortions are not able to have children later.

For people that say "men shouldn't impose on women what they think is right."
Let's take that all the way, make a vote for women only on the legality of abortion. The prominent force arguing for abortion are men, who are the real ones scared of the responsibility they might incrue.
That vote would sway hard towards pro-life.
But, let's take that a step farther:only women who've had both an abortion and a natural birth can vote... .that would only make sense, since the other have no hindsight. Would you like to read an opinion poll with those results?

For the bible scripture that "calls birth sin," it never actually says: "birth is sin" instead it talks about the santification of a women after birth... the women in the passadge is an interesting translation from the root of a hebrew word that not only means women but also refers to a girl who hasn't reached her maturity, or an unmarried female. I hope you are already familiar with the view of the bible followers on the subject, who believe sex before marriage is a sin.

As for the people that say you can't tell where life starts, I'll tell you. At the point where unnaturally altered, it would sustain itself. A sperm left alone won't do shit... neither will an egg. At the time of conception, when you can leave the embryo alone and it will survive on it's own, it's life.
Imediately I see the arguments coming "but it can't on it's own, it needs it's mother." Yes, it needs it's mother, but that comes naturally and you'd have to interfere to kill it. Much like someone on lifesupport needs the lifesupport, but they are still alive.

Not only is abortion immoral, it's also dangerous and illthought in light of other options.

I dont chide your fiance for expressing her opinion or describing her personal opinion. Far from it, i congratulate her on expressing herself in such a clear manner when discussing something so infinitely personal and painful in the public eye.

It does seem strange though that someone so upset about having been denied personal choice in the matter of her own abortion would advocate the removal of personal choice in others.
Like I said, I can't claim to understand her all the time but I know she has her reasons whether or not they make complete sense.

Personally, I don't agree with abortion, for a number of reasons (including the psychological damage to the mother)

However, I do not think making abortion illegal is the responsible course of action, as this leads to unsafe and dangerous illegal abortion 'clinics'.

When you carry something inside you almost 9 months, then it really is your choice. Is abortion moral? Why you think it isn't moral?

In my country abortions are well controlled and you can't have abortion just because you want to. You need to speak with doctor first. There is also time limit when you can have abortion.

It is pointless to share more opinions because Credonia already told that if you don't share his opinion you are immoral.

No point to answer because there was no clear, logical question. Just some angry rant...

Pointless Credonia, pointless...

" I see no excuse what so ever that a pregnant or teenage mother cant go to college and be able to pay for it and continue with her life plans."

What you do with the baby when you are in college???

I've answered to many abortion debates but your abortion post is the most immoral of them.

Coming from the uneducated? Or are there no newborn mothers at your college?

Like I said, I can't claim to understand her all the time but I know she has her reasons whether or not they make complete sense.

Well peace to you brother, now get off the damn internet and go make babies.

Well peace to you brother, no get off the damn internet and go make babies.
**smirks** Already tried and she is passed out on the floor. But you are right, I gotta go because I have to work in the morning so I can pay for our wedding. See ya all.

jeez, you do anger easily dont you. Young man was the label you gave yourself so dont whinge to me about that one. As for the comment regarding my parents, it was you that brought them into this debate by suggesting that i was under the pretension that i was wiser than they are (a point i dey making in the first place). I merely felt it appropriate to reply and in doing so note that while it would be foolish to assume that i am wiser than my parents, it would be equally foolish for you to imply that you are wiser than my parents. You clearly think that you are because my mother would find your views as abhorrent as i do.

My point is that it is fallacious (thats a big word you might have to look it up) for anyone to assume that the possess some amazing clarity that accords them greater moral insight than other people and allows them to state with confidence what is wrong and what is right. With this in mind, no one, least of all men who are only ever bystanders in the abortion debate, should try and lay claim to another persons body and prevent them from doing as they see fit.

Unfortunately, you've missed my point completely. Did you not note that little phrase on the end of the only post I made regarding your parents? I believe it went something like this:

And you should not pretend to know more than your parents about responsibility.

Where, then, do I make the assumption that I am wiser than your parents? I merely stated that one of your previous posts showed a distinct disregard for what I believe they would not have hesitated to impress upon you.

Let me explain my input on this debate to you again, that perhaps you might read it, rather than assume that this young man is doing nothing but spouting about something that he personally has no experience in: this is not about murder. It's not about who's right and who's wrong down to the last minute scientific detail. The focus of this debate should instead be on responsibility - the responsibility of that young couple who made the wrong decision, and now cannot face the consequences. I do, in fact, have enough experience to know that this whole issue can be avoided when one exercises even the smallest amount of self-restraint.

Before you go using "young man" in a derrogatory fashion again, I would suggest that you re-read my posts for what they are, and not for what you want them to be that you might argue against them.

Personally, I don't agree with abortion, for a number of reasons (including the psychological damage to the mother)

However, I do not think making abortion illegal is the responsible course of action, as this leads to unsafe and dangerous illegal abortion 'clinics'.

If we made murder legal, we could avoid the dangers of these "shoot outs" since you could carry a gun and not have to worry about witnesses and all that jazz.

If we made crack legal, we wouldn't have to worry about people overshooting, because the goverment could monitor consumtion.

If we made many illegal things legal, then the acts would get easier.

Yes, illegal abortions or the "hanger hook abortions" were horrible. Most crimes are. There's a simple answer to that one, if it's illegal, don't do it.

EDIT: Also, why don't you go investigate what an abortion consisted of when legalized? It's not pretty... and that may not mean much, but I mean even in comparison to abortions today.

EDIT#2: If abortions were illegalized, I'd also like to see a great deal invested in the education of why abortion is illegal... to hopefully avoid the problems with illegal abortion as they are a horrible consequence and not one taken lightly.

that's a fair comment Degobah and Yoda.

Where, then, do I make the assumption that I am wiser than your parents? I merely stated that one of your previous posts showed a distinct disregard for what I believe they would not have hesitated to impress upon you.


So you dont claim to be wiser than my parents but you do claim to know what they felt they should have impressed upon me? Please explain why i shouldnt assume that you quite arrogantly assume that you have superior conceptions of responsibility, morality or good judgement to other people?

I realize that nothing I say will have any impact on any of you. You will all go on, thinking your own thoughts, holding your own beliefs, and, more importantly living your life in whichever way you please. But before I leave you for the night, know this: do we really want to raise a generation of children who don't take responsibility for their actions? Please, if there is anything that you teach your own children, let it be this. It is a lesson that I have and am still painfully in the process of learning. It is much harder to undo what you have done, than to have never done it. And so for all of you who do not recognize the value in what Degobah and Yoda just said, please take the time to re-read his post.

With that, I leave you.

EDIT: Please, Trotterstan, read this and take it as a rebuttal to your argument. If you feel you need a clearer explanation, please read it again. I cannot make my feelings on the subject any clearer to you than this: a parent's love for a child is greater than you or I can imagine. To believe that any parent wishes his or her child to suffer life without responsibility is to lack a very basic grasp of this love, and so I cannot imagine that your parents taught you any less about responsibility than mine did me. Good night, good sir.

That young woman you prevented from having an abortion 2 months after having sex while using the pill and a condom could have gone to college and found a cure for cancer.

Simple answer: scrap welfare.

In case any of you haven't realized ( ;) ), I am from the school of making something of yourself without handouts. Why should I be forced to pay for others' irresponsible decisions?

Let's steer clear from that debate. Abortion is much more interesting.

If abortion is outlawed, and if the woman forced to carry a child to term is poor, or homeless or worse, and if you scrap welfare...what happens to the woman and the child?

I realize that nothing I say will have any impact on any of you. You will all go on, thinking your own thoughts, holding your own beliefs, and, more importantly living your life in whichever way you please. But before I leave you for the night, know this: do we really want to raise a generation of children who don't take responsibility for their actions? Please, if there is anything that you teach your own children, let it be this. It is a lesson that I have and am still painfully in the process of learning. It is much harder to undo what you have done, than to have never done it. And so for all of you who do not recognize the value in what Degobah and Yoda just said, please take the time to re-read his post.

With that, I leave you.

I have no idea what degobah and yoda was going on about in his or her post but if you would like to hear my opinion on future generations then i hope that my children and their children will be able to think for themselves and act as they see fit without my opinions standing in their way or yours for that matter.

Adoption. For those that say abortion isn't the easy way out, it's easier than adoption? If yes, then it's the easy way out. If no, then why bother, give the kid up for adoption.

Adoption. For those that say they don't have the life or money or "insertshithere" to raise a kid. (Regardless of the millions of dollars in aide money from the government every year)... Give it up to a loving family that has those things and no chance for conception on their own.

For those that would say: orphanage is horrible yada yada yada... take a look at the waiting list for a newborn baby adoption. If you're willing to give your child up for adoption before birth, there will be a family waiting to adopt it.




Americans are not lining up to adopt minority babies. In fact, a large number of Canadians are coming down here to adopt black children. And if you outlaw abortion, there will just be more babies up for adoption that nobody wants.

"Hey hun, I have a great idea. Let's visit the abortion clinic!"
"Yay! An abortion! The one thing I like more than making a baby is aborting it!"
"And it's so easy too! I don't have to take any responsibility for my actions!"
"So let's go! To the drive-tru abortion clinic! I hear they're having a 2-for-1 special! And you get a cookie afterwards!"
"We really should have sex more often dear."
"Yes."

Yup. That's how an abortion works. :rolleyes:

"... because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." -Hosea 13:16
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [she has a miscarriage] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows." -Exodus 21:22
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." -Psalm 137:8-9

I wouldn't say abortion is murder, but whatever it is, it looks as if it's divinely sanctioned! Morals don't come from a book; rules do. If all morals are defined by the Holy Bible and other sacred texts, from what would we glean the morality of daily tasks not mentioned in them? How moral is the mixture of peanut butter and jelly? Morals are instilled in us all, it's human nature, they are derived from the species' traits. It's wrong to kill- this is derived from our usually non-aggressive nature; It's wrong to steal- stems from our possessive nature. We are empathetic and compassionate creatures. This is why we have these morals. Those who have never heard of the bible still live "moral" lives by any standards, though they may participate in customs that seem savage. The Holy Bible is not a book of morals, on the contrary, it is simply a rule book for theocracy. We live in no theocracy, so biblical rules are nothing more than a personal living standard. Its "morals" have no place anywhere but in the hearts minds of their believers. They do not belong in an abortion clinic. I just find it ironic that a god who condones mass murder of women, and children, especially those unborn, is the one who condemns the practice of abortion. My simple advice to the religious fundamentalists: read your own holy text, and tell me that the violence condoned by your god is more justified than abortion.

All this talk about babies makes me want to get laid tonight.

my simple advice to you Yewbert is to not take things out of context

"Hey hun, I have a great idea. Let's visit the abortion clinic!"
"Yay! An abortion! The one thing I like more than making a baby is aborting it!"
"And it's so easy too! I don't have to take any responsibility for my actions!"
"So let's go! To the drive-tru abortion clinic! I hear they're having a 2-for-1 special! And you get a cookie afterwards!"
"We really should have sex more often dear."
"Yes."

Yup. That's how an abortion works. :rolleyes:

yes exactly. no pain, no acid-deformed fetuses.

The New Testament, for Christians, pretty much overrules the Old Testament since Jesus cleared everything up. God is a loving being who does not want harm to come to anyone. However, when it's a "greater good" argument such as abortion, I don't know what stance It would take. Personally, as a Christian with Utilitarian leanings, I believe that the option that does the smallest amount of harm to the smallest number of people is the best one.
But the thing to remember is we cannot make choices for other people. If someone is against abortion, we cannot and should not make them have an abortion against their will. And if someone is for abortion, we cannot and should not stop them from having one.
I am pro-abortion myself, for the economic argument more than anything, but would not impose my views on someone who was pregnant with an unwanted child and did not want an abortion, even though in my opinion it would clearly be the best thing.

the thing to remember is we cannot make choices for other people. If someone is against abortion, we cannot and should not make them have an abortion against their will. And if someone is for abortion, we cannot and should not stop them from having one.


congrats operetta, some of the other forum users have failed miserably to grasp this somewhat simple concept.

congrats operetta, some of the other forum users have failed miserably to grasp this somewhat simple concept.
Right, we can't choose to prevent people from shooting their spouses. We can't choose to defend ourselves in a war, since that's against the wishes of another party. This isn't a concept worthy of grasping, it's a concept to throw away and piss on.

I had scrambled eggs this morning. Three chickens will never have a chance to be fried :p



i don't want to get drawn in to yet another abortion debate, but i just have to say one thing:

i am sick to death of people claiming that having an abortion isn't taking responsibility. anybody who says

that has no idea what they are talking about, and deserves to be immediately laughed at or ignored. abortion

is a difficult process, made more difficult by ridiculous restrictions and horrible societal attitudes, and

is in no way an "easy out." as somebody who has worked at a inner-city clinic, i say this from personal

experience with women of all ages who made the difficult and responsible choice to abort.

personally, i think abortion is about a bazillion times more responsible than carrying a fetus to term with

the intention of giving it up for adoption; by aborting, you prevent a human consciousness from ever

arising, and you take full responsibility for your situation onto your shoulders. you bear the pain, the

stigma, and all the difficulty on your own. by carrying a fetus to term and then giving it up, you bring a

consciousness into the world only to foist it off on somebody else, taking no responsibility at all for

either your original "oops" pregnancy or for the life that you permitted to come into the world by your refusal to abort. anybody who has EVER claimed that abortion doesn't constitute taking responsibility owes an apology to every woman and girl who has had an abortion. they should apologize both for their ignorance and for their arrogance in speaking about a serious topic they clearly did not take the time to understand before passing sentence.

i entirely agree. anyone who is against abortion and "pro life" should visit an abortion clinic. my grandmother worked in one as a nurse. it's not a decision people make lightly. the people are generally very

sad, usually crying.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.
most of the people in there are actually married.
another thing,


Im sure many pro-choice people who read this editorial will say that a person cannot be told

what they can or cannot do with their bodies, but abortion affects another human being. While the human

organism isn’t fully developed and is inside the mother’s body, there can be no doubt about it that the

organism is alive, and to say otherwise is just plain asinine and idiotic. While it functions independently

from the mother, it is not dead, nor is it not full of life. There is nothing that can justify the argument

that an independent functioning organism that has a brain and a heart is not alive. If it isn’t alive, then

what the hell is it? So, once again I ask the question, is abortion moral? No it is not, and to say

otherwise is iniquitous and immoral in itself.

If it is before the first trimester, i am all for it. anything after the first trimester, when the fetus

begins to develop into an actual human, then i think it's wrong.
A person cannot be told what to do with their own body.. this is true. but, what about rape? should the

woman then be forced into the discomfort of carrying a child for 9 months, then the trauma of childbirth as

a result of an incredibly horrible experience? then she's given the choice of raising the child, a constant

reminder of the terror she experienced, or giving it up for adoption. contrary to popular belief, not all

foster homes are safe. then, after it's adopted by a suitable family, it grows up believing that they are

his or her parents. the child eventually finds out, and is generally incredibly upset and angry at it's

foster parents, and at the mother who 'abandoned' it. abortion saves both the mother and child from this

trauma.
also, in some cases, the mother or child could be endangered as a result of childbirth. some in-utero

diseases or infections are transferred to the child, causing it to die or grow up mentally or physically

diabled. these infections can also kill the mother.


If abortion is made legal, it would send a resonating message to our teens that they don’t

have to take responsibility for their actions and that it is ok to have unprotected sex because if they were

to get pregnant, all they have to do is get an abortion and not be stuck with the task of taking care of a

human. We must make abortion illegal on the federal level because we must send a clear message to our teens,

they must take responsibility for their actions. Don’t do the deed unless you are prepared and ready to pay

the price that comes along with it. Making abortion illegal on the federal level also forces teens to use

either contraceptives or condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancy. This also has an added bonus as it would

reduce the number of STD’s that are transmitted each year and it would force teens to have sex responsibly

or just not have sex at all.

if teens want to have sex, they'll have sex, regardless of whether abortion is legal or not. it'll just make

more teenage mothers. most birth control devices (pills, condoms, shots) have anywhere between 3 and 50%

chance of not working. it won't do anything about the contact STDs, such as herpes, even if they use

protection.
if abortion is made illegal, more girls will just try to do it themselves, or get one on the street (which

happens a lot more than most people realize). they'll just end up injuring themselves.

Well, I don't consider life the issue; it's sentience I'm concerned about. I kill thousands

or millions of bacteria every time I wash my hands, and it's no skin off my nose. Which is why I'm hesitant

about late-term/partial-birth abortion (but it's worth noting it's a procedure only performed in very

extreme circumstances--where it's necessary--and therefore is not worth outlawing).

I also don't have an issue with ending sentient life under all circumstances. What if your pet dies and is

in excruciating pain, and you want to put him out of his misery? Abortion can be viewed, in some sense, as

preemptive euthanasia.

exactly. a fetus (before the first trimester) is not a human. look in any medical dictionary. it is a bundle

of cells that has the potential to become a human. when it takes its first breath, it is truly alive. i am,

however, against late term or partial abortions, where it actually looks human (unless it's in extreme

circumstances, like you said)

As the world has come so close to a third world war over ideas of freedom it would seem

self-defeating to deny basic civil rights to those citizens who are faced with the terrible choice of

abortion. We should respect their privacy to make their decision on their own.
i wholeheartedly agree. abortion is an individual's choice as much as voting is. we can't take away those

fundamental rights. no one has the right to tell me i cant blow my nose when i sneeze, even if the pollen

that caused me to sneeze could eventually be a plant.


How many feminist or womens rights groups do you hear calling for a ban on abortion.....

None. Thats because the prolife lobby is dominted by masculine interests like our good buddies in the

catholic church.
this is correct. most of the people that lobby against abortion are males. i did some checking around, and

it's true. less than half are women (the women are mostly catholic, baptist, etc).


anyone who thinks that being anti-abortion is being pro-life needs to look inside an abortion clinic. i've

been in several. the walls, if you look closely, are often riddled with bulletholes. many clinics have been

burned, bombed, and etc, just because someone was "pro-life". take a look around, do a quick google search.

see the number of adults that have died as a result of these attacks. that's adults. with lives, families,

friends. they had an effect on the world. a bunch of goo that could eventually be a baby didn't have kids,

or friends, or anything.
those people are fucked in the head. "hey, i'm going to bomb you for throwing a small mass of cells away!

because i'm pro-life! that means i can kill people."

if it had a brain and a heart it is.
hec, it may not be a fully complete human being, but its a developing one

before the 1st trimester it doesn't have a brain and a heart. after the first trimester, it goes to Oz.

You guys can say what you want about rights and morals and things, but my opinion,

disregarding morals and rights, is that abortion is murder. A fetus or even a zygote is 'alive' from the

moment it is conceived, even though it may not be breathing or walking or talking. That's my take.
Yes a zygote is alive but so is a virus.
Irrylyn, do you wash your hands? have you ever stepped on a bug? cut down a tree? picked a flower? those

things are alive also, but we don't have people out there saying "save the viruses! they're living things

too!"
(i put trotterstan's on there as a backup. good one :D)

Good point, but I'm still right.
no one is "right". to be absolutely correct, everyone must agree with you. obviously, they do not. if we're

getting into "who's right?" based on opinions, it is my opinion that I'm right. Trotterstan's right. Pro-

choice is right. You can't tell other people they're wrong unless you have everyone else in the world on
your side. Do you?

It kills them. If that isnt murder, then i dont know what the hell is.

let's see..

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. [abortions aren't malicious]
To kill (another human) unlawfully. [abortions are, as of yet, legal]
To kill brutally or inhumanly. [abortions are preformed in the most humane way possible. the fetus, without nerve endings, feels nothing]
The crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing another under circumstances defined by statute (as with premeditation) [lawful. justifiable.]

are you clear now?

Well I am female and I think abortion is murder. I have been trying to conceive for over

a year. I was forced into an abortion when I was just 12, I was raped and the boy's father took me to an

abortion clinic and they took away the tiny life that was forming inside of me. I still wonder what the baby

would have been like if it lived. I know I would have likely giving it up for adoption but I wouldn't be

guilt ridden as I am now. In the past year I have been pregnant twice and lost the baby twice, I wonder mant

times "what if that was my only chance to bring a life into the world." Not all women approve of abortion

and I am one who wouldn't mind seeing it banned.
First off, i'm sorry that happened to you. Rape is a terrible experience and shouldn't happen to anyone. But

could you have really raised another life when you were that young? chances are, if you've had two

miscarriages, the first pregnancy would likely have been one also, especially if you were that young.
Did you not protest the abortion to the doctor while you were there, though? They aren't allowed to do it

unless you consent.
Well, you could always adopt a baby from someone else who thinks abortion is wrong..

When put this way, the only moral queation is: Is it right to end a life?
in the general sense, no. but a life is a life, right? no are you a vegetarian? wait.. plants are alive.

just eat rocks. but make sure you take the bacteria off and put them somewhere hospitable first.
what about this.. is the death penalty for murder immoral? should we just rehabilitate violent murderers to

give them a chance to live a good life?

Many rape victims in other parts of the world are forced to have illegal, unsafe and

potentially life threatening abortions which, if they are lucky enough to survive, can prevent them from

ever conceiving again.
and, if abortion rights in america (the home of the "free") are taken away, this same thing will happen. it

already does in some places.

Has anyone thought about what banning abortion would do for the economy?
If all the "council-estate" foetuses end up being born to teenage mothers and growing up, they'll all either

be looked after by the mother who won't be able to cope and may use NHS care for any mental issues induced

by it. She will probably become a benefit scrounger and lose out on higher education because she will be too

busy looking after the kids. Or perhaps the children will be packed off to state-run care homes. Either way

they'll grow up and sponge off benefits themselves because of their unfit upbringing.
All this will bring the country further and further into economic collapse, especially when these unwanted

children become disruptive in schools and affect the education of those around them, thus making the entire

future generation like them and consigned to the same fate.
So all you "pro-life" people, be prepared for substantial tax increases if abortion becomes illegal..

" I see no excuse what so ever that a pregnant or teenage mother cant go to college and

be able to pay for it and continue with her life plans."

What you do with the baby when you are in college???

I've answered to many abortion debates but your abortion post is the most immoral of them.

Yes, Credonia. If I ever get pregnant, I'll come to you and ask for money. You must be very wealthy to think

it would be easy to raise a baby and go through college.

My girlfriend was raped and was forced into an abortion. She is still reeling

from the loss of the child. All the trauma of the rape it self is gone but the memory of finding out she was

pregnant and then being forced to lose it is destroying her.
No one can be forced into an abortion, the doctor cannot legally perfom the abortion without full consent.

I think in an instance of rape.... maybe it should be allowed if that is what the mother really wants

but she should see what it would look like before having it done and I don't mean when it is still just a

tiny mass of blood but when it already has hands and all.

Oh, so you're for late-term/partial-birth abortions, i guess.. when it has hands, a brain, a heart, etc.

that's so much less wrong than sucking a bit of goo up with a little hose.

She told me that the man was a cop and threatened her and her family if they tried to fight to keep

the baby. Her father was in trouble for something minor and the man said he would lock her father away if

she didn't give in. Her family is everything to her.

could she not tell her parents or go to another higher authority? the police chief or something? (i'm not

being sarcastic or anything. i just wondered if that crossed her mind at all)

I hope you are already familiar with the view of the bible followers on the

subject, who believe sex before marriage is a sin.
hm.. here's something interesting.. over half the people who get abortions (outside of rape cases) are *

gasp* married.


"Hey hun, I have a great idea. Let's visit the abortion clinic!"
"Yay! An abortion! The one thing I like more than making a baby is aborting it!"
"And it's so easy too! I don't have to take any responsibility for my actions!"
"So let's go! To the drive-tru abortion clinic! I hear they're having a 2-for-1 special! And you get a cookie afterwards!"
"We really should have sex more often dear."
"Yes."

Yup. That's how an abortion works.
Have you ever been in abortion clinic? The people there are in intense emotional pain because of the gravity of their decision. It's not a fun, easy, or light experience. The woman going through with the abortion goes through a great deal of emotional and physical pain. The fetus, having not developed a brain for functional though or nerve endings to process pain, feels absolutely nothing. People like you who mock this RIGHT make me sick.


The New Testament, for Christians, pretty much overrules the Old Testament since Jesus cleared everything up. God is a loving being who does not want harm to come to anyone. However, when it's a "greater good" argument such as abortion, I don't know what stance It would take. Personally, as a Christian with Utilitarian leanings, I believe that the option that does the smallest amount of harm to the smallest number of people is the best one.
But the thing to remember is we cannot make choices for other people. If someone is against abortion, we cannot and should not make them have an abortion against their will. And if someone is for abortion, we cannot and should not stop them from having one.
I am pro-abortion myself, for the economic argument more than anything, but would not impose my views on someone who was pregnant with an unwanted child and did not want an abortion, even though in my opinion it would clearly be the best thing.

True. I challenge you all to find somewhere in the Bible where Jesus condemns abortion. If someone is against abortion, good for them! We're not forcing them to. The same should apply the other way. If someone wants an abortion, no one should be able to stop them. That, in my opinion, would be immoral.

I grow weary of debating.. I shall say no more.. reply, if you must..

Right, we can't choose to prevent people from shooting their spouses. We can't choose to defend ourselves in a war, since that's against the wishes of another party. This isn't a concept worthy of grasping, it's a concept to throw away and piss on.

pshshshshshshs.....

Thats the sound of me pissing all over your intelectually barren statement.

sorry that my post was weirdly chopped up. i dunno why it did that :confused:

pshshshshshshs.....

Thats the sound of me pissing all over your intelectually barren statement.
You're right, my mistake. No one should be allowed to prevent anyone from anything.
EDIT: And it helps your argument that my statements are intellectually barren if you spell it correctly.

Have you ever been in abortion clinic? The people there are in intense emotional pain because of the gravity of their decision. It's not a fun, easy, or light experience. The woman going through with the abortion goes through a great deal of emotional and physical pain. The fetus, having not developed a brain for functional though or nerve endings to process pain, feels absolutely nothing. People like you who mock this RIGHT make me sick.

*cough*sarcasmaimedatpeoplewhosay'having an abortion is the easy way out'*cough*

THIS IS A TRICKY HUMDINGER !!
:confused: EACH CASE SHOULD BE LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY ..
IF THERE IS A VERY HIGH RISK OF ANY ABNORMALITIES THAT MIGHT AFFECT
THE UNBORN, THEN YES ONLY ON MEDICAL GROUNDS AND ONLY THROUGH APPOINTED GOVERNMENT HEARINGS ...

THIS IS A TRICKY HUMDINGER !!
:confused: EACH CASE SHOULD BE LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY ..
IF THERE IS A VERY HIGH RISK OF ANY ABNORMALITIES THAT MIGHT AFFECT
THE UNBORN, THEN YES ONLY ON MEDICAL GROUNDS AND ONLY THROUGH APPOINTED GOVERNMENT HEARINGS ...
What's abnormal? If your child is going to be born with an IQ of 99, should he be killed? If he's going to have blue eyes, which are weaker than brown eyes, should he be killed?

THIS IS A TRICKY HUMDINGER !!
:confused: EACH CASE SHOULD BE LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY ..
IF THERE IS A VERY HIGH RISK OF ANY ABNORMALITIES THAT MIGHT AFFECT
THE UNBORN, THEN YES ONLY ON MEDICAL GROUNDS AND ONLY THROUGH APPOINTED GOVERNMENT HEARINGS ...

What? Looking at each case seperately, and determining on the available information what the best course of action is? As opposed to putting down one rule and painting all the different situations with the same brush?
Now there's a novel idea.

*cough*sarcasmaimedatpeoplewhosay'having an abortion is the easy way out'*cough*

oh..
heh :rolleyes:

I am probaly more conservative than anyone thats on this board, but I am pro-choice.

You just disproved yourself....now go kill some babies...

What's abnormal? If your child is going to be born with an IQ of 99, should he be killed? If he's going to have blue eyes, which are weaker than brown eyes, should he be killed?

"see my reply to mr noodles' post"

THIS IS A TRICKY HUMDINGER !!
:confused: EACH CASE SHOULD BE LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY ..
IF THERE IS A VERY HIGH RISK OF ANY ABNORMALITIES THAT MIGHT AFFECT
THE UNBORN, THEN YES ONLY ON MEDICAL GROUNDS AND ONLY THROUGH APPOINTED GOVERNMENT HEARINGS ...

on the left side of the keyboard, theres a key that says "Caps Lock". Hit it once.


appointed gov. hearings?
people have sex all the time and want to get abortions. Hey, lets over stress our judicial system so that by the time an abortion is approved, the baby is already 3 years old!

you know how they say "ignorance is bliss"? you must have hit the happyjackpot.

What's abnormal? If your child is going to be born with an IQ of 99, should he be killed? If he's going to have blue eyes, which are weaker than brown eyes, should he be killed?

i think the point was, if the mother or child is endangered by the pregnancy, abortion is an option to be considered.. :rolleyes:
don't start w/ the blue eye/brown eye thing.. i've seen entire flame wars about that class..

"see my reply to mr noodles' post"
There's a few million births a year, that would put a little strain on the medical and judicial systems.

You just disproved yourself....now go kill some babies...

Yes! Everyone who is pro-choice is so not because they do not think 2-month old fetusses are living, thinking human beings, and because they believe in the sanctity of a woman's body, but because they like to eat aborted babies!
It's all part of a Jewish conspiracy to weed the blue-eyes people out of the Amish population, thereby strenghtening their hold on the cheese-market, allowing them to overthrow the goverment of Ghana.
(sarcasm, just in case)

i think the point was, if the mother or child is endangered by the pregnancy, abortion is an option to be considered.. :rolleyes:
don't start w/ the blue eye/brown eye thing.. i've seen entire flame wars about that class..
I support abortion if the fetus is going to harm the mother. That's just self-defense. I don't support whim abortions.

on the left side of the keyboard, theres a key that says "Caps Lock". Hit it once.


appointed gov. hearings?
people have sex all the time and want to get abortions. Hey, lets over stress our judicial system so that by the time an abortion is approved, the baby is already 3 years old!

you know how they say "ignorance is bliss"? you must have hit the happyjackpot.


i don't think court is the best idea, maybe the doctor could decide, based on the patient's age, how she got pregnant, if this is her first abortion, if she's married..like that.

There's a few million births a year, that would put a little strain on the medical and judicial systems.

Are you saying money is more important than children?

I support abortion if the fetus is going to harm the mother. That's just self-defense. I don't support whim abortions.

i'm against whim abortions too. i'm for them if it's rape, if the person is young, or special situations like that.

Are you saying money is more important than children?
I'm saying children should almost never be aborted. So no, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying children are more important than their mother's whims.

I support abortion if the fetus is going to harm the mother. That's just self-defense. I don't support whim abortions.

ok, i know this is weirdly off-topic, but that post made me think of a little fetus attacking its mother with a knife. i am so sleep-deprived :D

aww i think the thread died :( no one is replying yet.

aww i think the thread died :( no one is replying yet.
It was aborted.

Morals are personal..
Well...that comment got ignored I think...

That young woman you prevented from having an abortion 2 months after having sex while using the pill and a condom could have gone to college and found a cure for cancer.

In that view... what abour her child? And her children's children... the possibility gets exponentially larger from there on out.... Please, even blinded by your own views and close minded as you are. Think things through.

Americans are not lining up to adopt minority babies. In fact, a large number of Canadians are coming down here to adopt black children. And if you outlaw abortion, there will just be more babies up for adoption that nobody wants.

Pull up any statistics from a reasonably reliable source about any "NEWBORN" child that had any trouble getting adopted.

The New Testament, for Christians, pretty much overrules the Old Testament since Jesus cleared everything up. God is a loving being who does not want harm to come to anyone. However, when it's a "greater good" argument such as abortion, I don't know what stance It would take. Personally, as a Christian with Utilitarian leanings, I believe that the option that does the smallest amount of harm to the smallest number of people is the best one.
But the thing to remember is we cannot make choices for other people. If someone is against abortion, we cannot and should not make them have an abortion against their will. And if someone is for abortion, we cannot and should not stop them from having one.
I am pro-abortion myself, for the economic argument more than anything, but would not impose my views on someone who was pregnant with an unwanted child and did not want an abortion, even though in my opinion it would clearly be the best thing.

"we" can't make choices for other people? Yet God orders you to follow the leadership of those placed in power over you, unless God says differently. So, if there is a law enacted against something, does God not order you to follow that?

We can't make the choice for someone not to murder someone else by your logic... we should all stand asside.

You views are clouded, think it through.

When do we see a foetus as a human being?

The stance that you are a human being from the moment of conception is hard to defend. A fertilised egg isn't very different from any other cell in a human body. It's just a cell, no sentience, no brain. Bacteria are closer to a fertilised egg than humans are. A fertilised egg just has the potential to develop into a human being, but it isn't one yet. By the logic that a fertilised egg is a human being, so are an egg and a sperm cell moments before conception because they too have the potential of becoming a human and by extension you have to consider every egg and every sperm cell as cells that have the potential of becoming a human being.

One other extreme stance is that we say that life begins at birth, which is yet again hard to defend. A baby that has just been born isn't exactly different from the same baby a few minutes before he was born.

So we have a continuum of a developing foetus in the womb with on one side the egg which can't really be considered alive, and on the other side a baby which is alive and somewhere in between the foetus goes from not alive to alive. I say it has to do something with the brain: without a brain their can be no sentience and I don't consider something that can't think and can't feel pain really alive in a way a human being is alive. So we need a brain that has developed a bit in order for it to show some activity other than development of the brain itself and the functioning of vital organs. This is my personal opinion of when life begins and I think it is one that can be defended. Anyway we have to draw an arbitrary line of when life begins between the non-living egg and the living baby. This gives us that there is a period before we reach this line that we don’t consider the foetus to be alive and therefore an abortion in this period can technically not be considered murder. From now on when I mention the word abortion I will be talking about an abortion happening in this period of time.

Now I have seen the argument that even aborting a fertilised egg is murder because you are murdering the possible child. I don’t consider this type of ‘murder’ (as opposed to the one a few lines above) really murder as it only takes away the potential of the egg to become a human being and this in the same way as you would by not having sex in the first place. By not having sex you are not using the potential of your eggs/sperm cells to become human beings and therefore you are ‘killing’ the children that you would have had if you were having sex. This and the fact that we don’t consider it murder in the sense that you are killing something that is alive leads me to reject this second type of ‘murder’ when we are talking about abortion.

This leads me to my first conclusion that there is a certain period of time following conception in which a foetus can’t be considered a living human being and that if we allow abortions to take place in this period of time it cannot be considered murder in any meaning of the word.

About responsibility:

A lot of people that oppose abortion seem to bring responsibility in the discussion. They say that abortion is just a way of not being responsible and that those that chose to have unprotected sex or just sex should face the consequences of their actions.

First we have the stance that people that don’t want children shouldn’t have had unprotected sex in the first place. This stance can’t be defended because protection fails from time to time and therefore having protected sex isn’t enough to safeguard you from getting pregnant. Therefore the responsibility argument comes down to “people that have sex have to face the consequences of their actions”.

For some reason people using this argument think of sex as something bad, a sin, especially when you are having sex without wanting children. I think that most people are free enough to see sex as something good, as a part of your life. Abstinence isn’t the only ‘moral’ way. To those that are against abortion and therefore think everyone should not have sex until they want to have children, because every act of sex, even protected, can lead to children, I say that not having sex until you are married isn’t the best option. Sex is an important factor in almost any marriage and I don’t see how you can marry someone you haven’t had sex with. You might end up as an average man with a woman that rarely wants sex or as a woman with a man that has some strange fantasies. I am also inclined to say that it is not in our nature to wait until we are 25 years old because in prehistoric times a lot of people didn’t even make it to that age (note that I am not saying that it is unnatural), so you can’t really say that people that have sex before they want children are bad or irresponsible, even though it can lead to pregnancy.

I also find it strange how people link responsibility to punishment. So because you had sex, an act which might lead to pregnancy, and you end up getting pregnant, you have to take on your responsibility and keep the child, even if you don’t want it. Taking on your responsibility doesn’t mean you have to take some sort of punishment, for the rest of your life in case of a pregnancy. Taking on your responsibility is facing your situation, realising what are the consequences of every possible option and then chose the option that you think is best. I see abortion as the best option in a lot of cases. Irresponsible people are those that let others decide for them. Irresponsible people are those that chose to abort a child just because they fear the stigma of being a single mother, although they themselves want to keep the child. Irresponsible people are those that keep the child because they think their parents would never approve of an abortion, although they aren’t capable of supporting the child. Again, responsibility is not about punishment. It is even sick to think that a woman should be punished for the rest of her live for an act that most people do, having sex without wanting children, while there is a way of preventing this ‘punishment’.


And to end my post, it is not because you are pro-choice that you would choose for abortion yourself. Being pro-choice is about not forcing women into a situation that is bad for the woman and by extension for the child.

That young woman you prevented from having an abortion 2 months after having sex while using the pill and a condom could have gone to college and found a cure for cancer.

forgive me, but i feel particular empathy for that girl, since the situation is so similar to mine. i got pregnant in just such a way, and though i miscarried before abortion became an issue (due to still being on the pill), i would have had an abortion as soon as i knew. i would not have had the slightest problem with my choice, and in retrospect i would have been happy had i needed to make that choice....i have indeed gone to college, and, while i haven't cured cancer, i have begun my graduate career in neuroscience with every intention of addressing the disease of epilepsy and hopefully finding ways to treat, cure, or repair damage.

none of this would be possible if i had given birth 6 years ago, since i believe it is wrong to have a baby and then give it to somebody else to take care of (that being the most irresponsible thing you could possibly do), so i would have been taking care of an infant rather than getting schooling. i certainly couldn't have gone to the college i went to, because of the long-distance move, nor would i have been able to go to my new grad school (again because of the move).

all these emotive stories about hearing phantom babies cry are pointless and irrelevant to this discussion. i spend time working in a clinic with women who face the choice to abort, and i have dealt with women who made either choice. i can tell you that women who choose to abort often have other children already, and are often putting the needs of their children ahead of the fetus inside that might or might not become another child. women who choose to abort do NOT often come in to us depressed and traumatized; the only ones i ever saw who felt that way were the ones forced or coerced into abortion against their wishes. women who CHOOSE abortion are making the best choice they can, and they pretty much always choose what is right for them. what is right for one woman may not be right for another. i don't see how anybody, male or female, has the right to tell another person "I know better than you about your life."

any woman who feels traumatized by her abortion and uses that to justify an anti-choice stance should come visit my clinic. yes, your abortion was traumatic, but what about all the dozens of women i see who express relief or even joy at the availability of safe, medical abortions? just because you had a bad experience, can you really claim to have the right to deny choice to others? i had a horrible, terrifying experience riding a motorcycle, and i nearly was killed, but i don't seek to ban other people from riding motorcycles because i know how to distinguish my emotions from reality. women who try to use their emotions as reasoning represent the worst stereotypes of femininity, and make me ashamed to be of the same gender as them.

damn, looks like i am going to be pulled into this debate anyway :).

Pull up any statistics from a reasonably reliable source about any "NEWBORN" child that had any trouble getting adopted.

wait, so once it's not newborn we don't give a damn?

yeah, couples always want the new babies. the problem is that we have an adoption system designed to prevent the government or private agencies from snatching babies from minorities and giving them to "better" (read: white, rich) families. because of this, newborns are usually legally the property of the nearest relative, who often will take a few years to decide they don't want the baby after all. by the time the kid says its first words it has already less than a 15% chance of EVER being adopted by a non-related person or family.

now, maybe this means we need to reform adoption laws, i don't really know. but what it certainly means in the meantime is that we have no shortage of children. if couples want to adopt so badly then why can't they take an older child? we have tens of thousands of older kids waiting for families. these 2 million couples waiting to adopt sure aren't in much of a hurry if they turn down one and two year olds, and i have no sympathy for them if they refuse kids that are offered just because they want something better to come along.

In that view... what abour her child? And her children's children... the possibility gets exponentially larger from there on out.... Please, even blinded by your own views and close minded as you are. Think things through.

she never had a child, at least not yet. she may in the future, and that child or children will have better opportunities, education, and safety than they would have if she had a child at 16 (this is based on all reputable statistics we have, but i will look up specifics if you really make me :P).

please be clear: the fetus she aborted was not a child. until you can establish that it was, which nobody has yet managed to do, you shouldn't use the term "child" because that is merely an emotive ploy to arrouse sympathy.

Hum, was it the thread creator that had written the text in the 1st post or just quoting someone else? Couldn't make it out for sure because what he said in the last part.

Just some thoughts. Sure, with a heart you might be able to say it's a life. but i disagree that you so early on can say it's a human beeing, a person. And if you agree on that, then it's not coldblooded murder anymore, it's just another death to a lifeform that a human is responsible.

And another thing that alot of pro-lifers miss, just because you use a condom or pills doesn't meant you can't get pregnant. they are NOT 100% proof.

she never had a child, at least not yet. she may in the future, and that child or children will have better opportunities, education, and safety than they would have if she had a child at 16 (this is based on all reputable statistics we have, but i will look up specifics if you really make me :P).

please be clear: the fetus she aborted was not a child. until you can establish that it was, which nobody has yet managed to do, you shouldn't use the term "child" because that is merely an emotive ploy to arrouse sympathy.

No but the argument came up before what if she goes on to cure cancer

1 having a child doesn’t not necessarily mean that she can not further her education … I have plenty of friends going to collage with kids

2 now it was said what if she cures cancer… what if it was her kids or their decedents


Really lol people make it seem like it is the end of the world for her

Anyways I am not really pro life or pro choice I see the points on both sides though :)

I think it is one of those things where it is easy to say “I am pro life” or “I am pro choice” until it happens to you. Then the lines are not so clearly defined

i'm against whim abortions too. i'm for them if it's rape, if the person is young, or special situations like that.

subliminal message: BABY KILLING IS OK!

who really gives a damn if you abort another baby. honestly people are still going to abort babies no matter what you say. you can _disagree_ with something all you want, doesnt mean that mother will rethink the abortion and go through with a pregnancy.

OK it seems many are attacking me on the fact that a baby isnt considered a human if it is a "bundle of cells." Notice how i carefully worded my statements in my editorial by saying a human being has a functioning brain and heart. That is what a human is. An organism with a brain and a heart and other things, obviously.

Also, i did not mention in my editorial instances such as rape, and I probably should have. My belief is that abortion should ONLY be legal if a woman was raped. Then it is her decision, OR if the baby will be born with serious and maybe life threatening abnormalities taht will affect them for the rest of their lives. Those are the only two instances when i think an abortion should be made legal and performed. Other than that, if the woman wants to carry on with her life and she ends up pregnant, give it up fro adoption. Find a caring, loving family for it to ensure that the baby will live a healthy life and is cared and provided for and loved properly.

If the mother wants to keep the baby and go to college, get a grant. Free money and you can get enough so that you can take care of your child. What do you do while the mom is in college? Lets see here, you can send it to day care, hire a responsible baby sitter, etc.. Take some of that money and pay for it. Theres no excuse. THAT is what i call taking responsibility for your actions and making the best of it.

In that view... what abour her child? And her children's children... the possibility gets exponentially larger from there on out.... Please, even blinded by your own views and close minded as you are. Think things through.

*cough*sarcasmaimedatpeoplewhosay'the baby you just aborted could have grown up to find a cure for cancer!'*cough*

or you could have given birth to a new terrorist! a second hitler! barney the dinosaur! a lazy slob who mooches off of you for the rest of your life! the possibilities are endless!

Everyone should breed non-stop in hopes of finding that one person who can cure cancer.

or you could have given birth to a new terrorist! a second hitler! barney the dinosaur! a lazy slob who mooches off of you for the rest of your life! the possibilities are endless!

So we agree that using either "the baby could have" or "the mother could have" as arguments is stupid?

Banning abortion is the ultimate white mans way of saying to women 'I am better than you, I am morally superior to you and my opinions are so much better than yours that I should be able to govern the functioning of your internal organs.'

Um this is wrong in two ways: One, plenty of women disagree with this plague of society, not just men. Two, don't abortions increase the oppression of women? Now they are being told to have an abortion because the father doesn't want to deal with the kid. So basically they have no choice and are letting themselves be controlled.

Um this is wrong in two ways: One, plenty of women disagree with this plague of society, not just men. Two, don't abortions increase the oppression of women? Now they are being told to have an abortion because the father doesn't want to deal with the kid. So basically they have no choice and are letting themselves be controlled.

Uhh....no, abortions are optional. Taking away the right to have an abortion is opression, not the other way around.

A woman doesn't have to have an abortion if she doesn't want to.

And I'll bet the type of people who would try and force them into an abortion would just kick them in the stomach a few times if abortion was illegal.

OK it seems many are attacking me on the fact that a baby isnt considered a human if it is a "bundle of cells." Notice how i carefully worded my statements in my editorial by saying a human being has a functioning brain and heart. That is what a human is. An organism with a brain and a heart and other things, obviously.


Are you saying that a fetus in the early months(afaik most contries have limit wherre they no longer do abortions unless it's in extream cases) have a brain and a heart working as good as any other human?

No? But yet something with a brain and a heart isn't supposed to be killed? Then maybe it's also time for you to start a thread about why we should stop killing animals etc etc. Cause they to got both a brain and a heart(or, atleast a great part of them. Might be some wierd animal without either or something that isn't that wellknown.).

So we agree that using either "the baby could have" or "the mother could have" as arguments is stupid?


yes. you know, i should just link the whole God archive. i quote him and such a lot.

http://ioda006.name2host.com/news.html



abortion article:
http://ioda006.name2host.com/articles/alternateabortion.html

So, how many of you pro-lifers have adopted a crack baby?

If you feel so strongly about taking away a woman's rights, you should probably feel a little compelled to make the already living baby's life less of a living hell.

i would love to see the replies to that.

Pull up any statistics from a reasonably reliable source about any "NEWBORN" child that had any trouble getting adopted.

Only newborns, eh? They don't stay newborns for long. What if they don't get adopted immediately? Why the fixation on newborns?

This is from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And this is only for foster care.

Here's the relevant part, but I will post the link below:

As of 1999:

117,000 children in foster care are waiting to be adopted.

Age of Waiting Children on March 31, 1999 2% were less than one year old, 35% were 1-5 years, 37% were 6-10 years, 23% were 11-15 years, and 3% were 16-18 years old.

http://statistics.adoption.com/adoption_from_foster_care_1999.php

2% works out to 2,340 kids. If you outlaw abortion, that number will skyrocket.

Only newborns, eh? They don't stay newborns for long. What if they don't get adopted immediately? Why the fixation on newborns?

This is from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And this is only for foster care.

Here's the relevant part, but I will post the link below:

As of 1999:

117,000 children in foster care are waiting to be adopted.

Age of Waiting Children on March 31, 1999 2% were less than one year old, 35% were 1-5 years, 37% were 6-10 years, 23% were 11-15 years, and 3% were 16-18 years old.

http://statistics.adoption.com/adoption_from_foster_care_1999.php

2% works out to 2,340 kids. If you outlaw abortion, that number will skyrocket.
The problem with adoptin is the cost to adopt. My mother had wanted to adopt a child, any color and any disability but because of the cost she couldn't. She was only able to have one child and lost her other ones to misscarrying or stillborn. The laws need to be changed so not only the upper class can adopt but normal hard working people too.

if the family agency in other states is anything like DHR in alabama, anyoen who wants to adopt is fucked

There is no such thing as a universal morality. Although some people would like to believe that there is, it just isn't so. Everybody has their own different set of moral guidelines. So what would be not OK by one person's set of morals might be just find by another person's moral standards. So just because some people think that abortion is immoral doesn’t necessarily mean that it is so for everybody.

Morals are personal..
4th reply to the orignal post in this thread...

subliminal message: BABY KILLING IS OK!

who really gives a damn if you abort another baby. honestly people are still going to abort babies no matter what you say. you can _disagree_ with something all you want, doesnt mean that mother will rethink the abortion and go through with a pregnancy.
amen to that, pro-lifers have to choices, shut the hell up and let the government and medical industry regulate abortion or win and let alley doctors abort babies with coat hangers

the gov should NOT dictate what a woman can or cant do with her body. what if the gov takes too long and the baby is born by the time the womans case is even looked at?

a programmer friend of mine has an interesting avatar. its a counter of how many babies have been aboted each day.
http://f0rked.com/stuff/avatar.php

at the time of writing this, _1500_ babies have been aborted today. think the government can handle that many abortion requests?

the gov should NOT dictate what a woman can or cant do with her body. what if the gov takes too long and the baby is born by the time the womans case is even looked at?

a programmer friend of mine has an interesting avatar. its a counter of how many babies have been aboted each day.
http://f0rked.com/stuff/avatar.php

at the time of writing this, _1500_ babies have been aborted today. think the government can handle that many abortion requests?
thought you were intelligent, must be mistaken

please state the reason for your remark.

Am I the only one that actually gets the avatar?

It starts each day on default at 1500 and changes by one whenever you click on it. It's not real.

I found it kinda funny myself.

*sigh*

it does not start at a "default" of 1500. actually at the time of getting that, it was at 1499... thats beside the point. the point is that there are hundreds (thousands) of babies aborted each day. the gov could not handle that load of abortion requests. if those babies are born and put up for adoption, thats that many more kids most likely remaining in adoption centers/foster homes.

Am I the only one that actually gets the avatar?

It starts each day on default at 1500 and changes by one whenever you click on it. It's not real.

I found it kinda funny myself.

Not as funny as http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc3.jpg

psh.

http://www.shibbytk.com/images/kitten.jpg

*sigh*

it does not start at a "default" of 1500. actually at the time of getting that, it was at 1499... thats beside the point. the point is that there are hundreds (thousands) of babies aborted each day. the gov could not handle that load of abortion requests. if those babies are born and put up for adoption, thats that many more kids most likely remaining in adoption centers/foster homes.
well the medical industry sucesfully handles thousands of child births a day, why dont you look up the damned rate on those, its a crapload
and woo woo relaity alert, the government wont be handling it, the medical industry will, the government would provide regulatios, like they do for EVERYTHING ELSE

I've always leaned a bit to the left, but one day I got to thinking of myself as anti-death. Abortion ends a life, weather it is born or not. When put this way, the only moral queation is: Is it right to end a life?

Now, of course, there are several arguments and exceptions for that question, but it at least consolidates some problems.

I too am anti-death...which oddly enough is why I support pro-choice. Many women die in dirty, makeshift, illegal abortion clinics...or try to do it themselves by overdosing on drugs or *shudder* coathanger-type methods. Outlawing abortion does not stop it... it drives it underground and makes it unsafe. I've never had an abortion. I have two lovely daughters...and I hope they are never in a position where abortion is their best choice (for health reasons, rape and so on)...but I AM glad they live in a country where the choice IS theirs, and it is safe. By the way...many women are FORCED into abortions, by their boyfriends or families, and that won't stop just because it is illegal. That is NOT pro-choice, but at least in a clean, legal clinic they have the chance to keep their own health. Abortion is terrible, but it is not going to stop happening. Please don't say that the woman deserves to die too for her choice.

Abortions should be illegal! Whats the difference between someone kill a 30 years man and a women having an abortion. Why should somene be able to kill someone that is totally innocent.

perhaps the mother is equally as innocent.

Abortions should be illegal! Whats the difference between someone kill a 30 years man and a women having an abortion. Why should somene be able to kill someone that is totally innocent.

Let's say the woman was gang raped. Should she keep the child? Expain that it is the product of a brutal and degrading act? Should she be reminded every day what happened to her? Or should she try to get an abortion anyway and die in some ally after the procedure goes wrong?

/me sings
baaaaby killers. moooommy killers.

Let's say the woman was gang raped. Should she keep the child? Expain that it is the product of a brutal and degrading act? Should she be reminded every day what happened to her? Or should she try to get an abortion anyway and die in some ally after the procedure goes wrong?

What about the child? Should the child be condemned to never know life, simply because of the circumstances of his conception?

I too am anti-death...which oddly enough is why I support pro-choice. Many women die in dirty, makeshift, illegal abortion clinics...or try to do it themselves by overdosing on drugs or *shudder* coathanger-type methods. Outlawing abortion does not stop it... it drives it underground and makes it unsafe. I've never had an abortion. I have two lovely daughters...and I hope they are never in a position where abortion is their best choice (for health reasons, rape and so on)...but I AM glad they live in a country where the choice IS theirs, and it is safe. By the way...many women are FORCED into abortions, by their boyfriends or families, and that won't stop just because it is illegal. That is NOT pro-choice, but at least in a clean, legal clinic they have the chance to keep their own health. Abortion is terrible, but it is not going to stop happening. Please don't say that the woman deserves to die too for her choice.

Ok, so you're pro-life, but you think that the mother should live?

If you make it illegal, many many less potential mothers will get an abortion. You say you're prolife but you fail to see that even if some die because it's illegal, far more babies will live.
And, some few people still go to dirty, makeshift clinic and OD and such, though you're right, it's far less. The fact is, you can't stop people from doing what they want, but you can convince them that they don't want it.

Ok, so you're pro-life, but you think that the mother should live?

If you make it illegal, many many less potential mothers will get an abortion. You say you're prolife but you fail to see that even if some die because it's illegal, far more babies will live.
And, some few people still go to dirty, makeshift clinic and OD and such, though you're right, it's far less. The fact is, you can't stop people from doing what they want, but you can convince them that they don't want it.

I never said I was pro life...I'm not, I'm pro-choice. I said I was anti-death... a distinction I have to make because pro-life generally only refers to the abortion issue.

Let's say the woman was gang raped. Should she keep the child? Expain that it is the product of a brutal and degrading act? Should she be reminded every day what happened to her? Or should she try to get an abortion anyway and die in some ally after the procedure goes wrong?

There is something called Adoption.

She can have the child and not keep it. I'd rather be reminded everyday that i got raped then be reminded that i child my own child!

Only newborns, eh? They don't stay newborns for long. What if they don't get adopted immediately? Why the fixation on newborns?

This is from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. And this is only for foster care.

Here's the relevant part, but I will post the link below:

As of 1999:

117,000 children in foster care are waiting to be adopted.

Age of Waiting Children on March 31, 1999 2% were less than one year old, 35% were 1-5 years, 37% were 6-10 years, 23% were 11-15 years, and 3% were 16-18 years old.

http://statistics.adoption.com/adoption_from_foster_care_1999.php

2% works out to 2,340 kids. If you outlaw abortion, that number will skyrocket.

Adoption isn't a good enough solution to justify taking away my choice.

More people would adopt kids if they didnt have to pay thousands of dollars for a child. I know someone that cant have kids and she just cant save quickly enough to get a child befores shes 40.

More people would adopt kids if they didnt have to pay thousands of dollars for a child. I know someone that cant have kids and she just cant save quickly enough to get a child befores shes 40.

I know...any idiot can have a kid, but it's very hard to adopt:). I actually have two girls, but would like to adopt and I'm finding it is WAY more than I can afford to go through all the bureaucratic crap. Still, they DO need to make sure that the kids are going to good homes. I just have a real problem with the foster care system (where is where most of those unwanted kids will end up). It's underfunded and poorly run, and a lot of kids end up very damaged after kicking around the system for a few years. Plus, who wants to adopt a 9 or 13 year old (to pick random, older ages)? The ideal situation in an unwanted pregnancy would be that someone (safe) would be willing to take the child. However, carrying that baby to term is still not your (or my) decision. It is the woman's.

I just dont know how you could live with yourself after you have a abortion. Like I said I'd rather live with getting raped than with know I killed my child on purpose.

Its one thing to make sure the child is going to a good home, its another thing to make the person who wants to adopt to go through a living hell to get a child

Its one thing to make sure the child is going to a good home, its another thing to make the person who wants to adopt to go through a living hell to get a child

True...but getting back to the original point.....because making abortions illegal won't make adoptions any easier.

Yes i know but i was replying to the message Sinhue posted

I never said I was pro life...I'm not, I'm pro-choice. I said I was anti-death... a distinction I have to make because pro-life generally only refers to the abortion issue.

Still, you say anti-death, but choose the option that results in more death?

Adoption isn't a good enough solution to justify taking away my choice.

If you read my post, you will see that I am obviously pro-choice. I don't want to take away your choice. The poster I was responding to said that ALL newborn babies were adopted. I was countering her argument, and saying that if abortion were outlawed, there would be a lot more babies up for adoption that nobody wanted. Please read more carefully.

Morals are personal..
Post #5. No one contested it. This thread is still growing in size, wasting more and more space on the Jolt servers....

Any here who suppport abortion:

I challenge you to read about the ways in which abortion is performed. They are terrible, and tortorous. Then, look at a few pictures of aborted babies. And tell me that they are not human. Tell me that they are insignificant masses of cells.

Any here who suppport abortion:

I challenge you to read about the ways in which abortion is performed. They are terrible, and tortorous. Then, look at a few pictures of aborted babies. And tell me that they are not human. Tell me that they are insignificant masses of cells.

I'm sure if you saw a mastectomy, skin graft, laser eye surgery, or appendix removal, you'd be grossed out too. So what if abortions aren't aesthetically pleasing? These fetuses are not viable outside the womb. Take them out, and they will die. Are you willing to adopt and raise all of these kids?

*streaks through thread*

WoooooHooooooooo!

What's abnormal? If your child is going to be born with an IQ of 99, should he be killed? If he's going to have blue eyes, which are weaker than brown eyes, should he be killed?
ABNORMAL MEANS NO QUALITY OF LIFE , NO INDEPENDENCE, PAIN AND SUFF ERING MOST OF THE TIME , EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS , DON,T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT I SURE AS HELL !!! WOULD NOT WANT TO EXIST LIKE THAT ,
THAT,S NOT LIVING :mad:

Also each form of contraception has a chance of not working. Condoms break approximately 3% of the time, 1 in 30. The pill is about the same. The rhythm method is a good way to get pregnant.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.
TELL THAT TO A SCHOOL GIRL

There's no need for shouting catnoodles.

Use your inside voice.

Nevertheless the Catholic Church at one time tried to ban condoms because they believe that sex should ONLY be practice in order to create children.

Abortions should be illegal! Whats the difference between someone kill a 30 years man and a women having an abortion. Why should somene be able to kill someone that is totally innocent.

The differance is that I don't see an early fetus as a human beeing. Tho the 30 year old man obviously is.

The ultra right winged christians refuse to adopt unwanted babies. 'Nuff said.

Any here who suppport abortion:

I challenge you to read about the ways in which abortion is performed. They are terrible, and tortorous. Then, look at a few pictures of aborted babies. And tell me that they are not human. Tell me that they are insignificant masses of cells.

http://datanation.com/fallacies/ap.htm
"Look at the poor baby. So cute and innocent. How could anyone hurt it?"

http://datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm
"Obviously, if you think abortions are ok, you support random baby-killing, along with terrible and torterous operations."

Any here who suppport abortion:

I challenge you to read about the ways in which abortion is performed. They are terrible, and tortorous. Then, look at a few pictures of aborted babies. And tell me that they are not human. Tell me that they are insignificant masses of cells.

Well edited propaganda, many of those pictures are hand picked, and are not actually accurate, like those abortion busses driving around DC with fetus pictures

Also each form of contraception has a chance of not working. Condoms break approximately 3% of the time, 1 in 30. The pill is about the same. The rhythm method is a good way to get pregnant.

Dont assume just because someone got pregnant accidentally they were being irresponsible.
I agree. I knew a girl who got pregnant, even though the guy used a condom. They are't always guaranteed, nor are they foolproof.

And don't say they have to be married before they can have sex; that is just societal bullshit. If a person is ready and it's purely consentual, then let them. If a person does it when they're ready, it can be a good experience.

Also, plenty of grown women have abortions, not just teens and these women have the ability to care for the child, they just decided that maybe they weren't fit for the job.

It's better for a "bunch of cells" to be killed then to bring in another child into this world unless the mother is ready.

The ultra right winged christians refuse to adopt unwanted babies. 'Nuff said.

Surely they would be more authoritarian than right-wing? It is possible to be a right-wing libertarian (like me! :)) if one believes in the free market etc. There are plenty of left-wing authoritarians, e.g. the Commies.
People like that shouldn't call themselves Christians if they were going to adopt a child anyway. It wasn't the child's fault that the parents didn't want him/her. Christians are supposed to love everyone.

Nevertheless the Catholic Church at one time tried to ban condoms because they believe that sex should ONLY be practice in order to create children.

In Ireland they were once banned. A friend said that he and others used to run over to England to get them. ;)

It's better for a "bunch of cells" to be killed then to bring in another child into this world unless the mother is ready.[/QUOTE]

first you say "cells" then you say "child" you contradict yourself.
Facts are, the human being inside the womb experiences
tortuous pain that no one would even inflict on a puppy, let alone
a small baby. All the nerve endings are intact, does that mean
anything to anyone? This is not legal murder, it's legal torture.

Do I think it is immoral? Yes, if I was in a situation and that was an option I wouldn't take it. However, it should be an option, it is not a question of morality it is a question of rights. And on a side note, don't you find it funny that the people who are adamantly against abortion are also statistically and traditionally supporters of the death penalty? Irony or hipocracy? You decide.

first you say "cells" then you say "child" you contradict yourself.
Facts are, the human being inside the womb experiences
tortuous pain that no one would even inflict on a puppy, let alone
a small baby. All the nerve endings are intact, does that mean
anything to anyone? This is not legal murder, it's legal torture.

bah, until it can sustain it's own life it is not a being, it is a parasite by definition. and the pain centers in the human brain do not develop until the 3rd week of pregnancy if I am not mistaken.

It's better for a "bunch of cells" to be killed then to bring in another child into this world unless the mother is ready.

first you say "cells" then you say "child" you contradict yourself. [/QUOTE]

Actually he/she doesn't.

Facts are, the human being inside the womb experiences
tortuous pain that no one would even inflict on a puppy, let alone
a small baby. All the nerve endings are intact, does that mean
anything to anyone? This is not legal murder, it's legal torture.

Uhuh, really. So tell me, why do you celebrate your birthday on the day you were born, instead of when you were conceived? After all, you instantly become a full human the moment impregnation occurs right?
Ecept in the 50+% of the cases where the unborn is naturally aborted, most of the time long before the mother knows about it. Right? It's not a human then eh?

bah, until it can sustain it's own life it is not a being, it is a parasite by definition. and the pain centers in the human brain do not develop until the 3rd week of pregnancy if I am not mistaken.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If they cared so much about all those unborn children, they'd take them out of the unwilling mothers' bodies and take care of them themselves. but do they? No.

So you think it's ok to shove a scalpel into the
skull of a child, carve a hole and suck its brains
out BEFORE it passes through the birth canal
but AFTER it's not ok, or is it cool to you after as well?

So you think it's ok to shove a scalpel into the
skull of a child, carve a hole and suck its brains
out BEFORE it passes through the birth canal
but AFTER it's not ok, or is it cool to you after as well?

Where did I say that? Keep your emotional blackmail to yourself.

bah, until it can sustain it's own life it is not a being, it is a parasite by definition. and the pain centers in the human brain do not develop until the 3rd week of pregnancy if I am not mistaken.

So would you say that AFTER the child is three weeks developed
that it is immoral and tortuous to kill a child in the womb?

Where did I say that? Keep your emotional blackmail to yourself.

That's what happens during an abortion, open your
eyes, quit candy coating the truth, you're in denial

That's what happens during an abortion, open your
eyes, quit candy coating the truth, you're in denial

Jawohl mein fuhrer!

"Open your eyes", etc = "Please, please, PLEASE take what I say as the absolute truth! Please? I don't actually have anything to stand on, so please just accept what I say!?"

you're avoiding my question

you're avoiding my question

No I didn't.

So would you say that AFTER the child is three weeks developed
that it is immoral and tortuous to kill a child in the womb?

thought so

thought so

I was sleeping. And for the record, my age/time-limit is a little higher than 3 weeks.
But surely you could have asked that with out the emotional blackmail and the screams of legalised torture?

Morals are personal..
Uh, yea...nuff said?

*pats Opal Isle on the head*
I know how you feel.