NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay...just out of curiousity...
Almost all Christian groups say that the only way to get into heaven is to "accept Jesus as your saviour" and this is the only thing you need to do.
Now, I know the Catholics are a little different and also believe that the deeds of a person (good and bad) are also considered...
So my question is, do Catholics believe that you have to believe in the Christian God to get to heaven? I mean, if He is truly real, is He really going to keep me out of His Paradise just because I didn't have a good reason to believe in something with no facts behind it at all? I've got high morals, higher than essentially all "Christians" I know (probably because I don't know many Catholics) so is this criteria enough to get in or am I (according to Catholic belief) damned to eternal suffering because I've not accept writings that are centuries old...?

Okay...just out of curiousity...
Almost all Christian groups say that the only way to get into heaven is to "accept Jesus as your saviour" and this is the only thing you need to do.
Now, I know the Catholics are a little different and also believe that the deeds of a person (good and bad) are also considered...
So my question is, do Catholics believe that you have to believe in the Christian God to get to heaven? I mean, if He is truly real, is He really going to keep me out of His Paradise just because I didn't have a good reason to believe in something with no facts behind it at all? I've got high morals, higher than essentially all "Christians" I know (probably because I don't know many Catholics) so is this criteria enough to get in or am I (according to Catholic belief) damned to eternal suffering because I've not accept writings that are centuries old...?

Good deeds sounds like a much better criteria for admission into internal paradise, than just kissing God's ass.

Good deeds sounds like a much better criteria for admission into internal paradise, than just kissing God's ass.
Yea, but I'm not looking for Internal Paradise...Eternal is what I was asking about...

Yea, but I'm not looking for Internal Paradise...Eternal is what I was asking about...

Ha ha! I was thinking of the words Eternal and Infernal simultaneously...

Good deeds sounds like a much better criteria for admission into internal paradise, than just kissing God's ass.

Now I'm not Christian or any religion and I don't dedicate my life to anything Higher Up but I'd like to say just because I'm bored...

I'm pretty sure that the act of "accepting Jesus into your heart" is not about saying he's great and all. I think, when you accept him, you accept his teachings to and therefore are foregiven for your past sins because God/Jesus/whatever knows that in your heart you are being honest. But if you lie about "accepting Jesus" then you go to hell. Or if you don't at all then you go to hell.

Now I'm not Christian or any religion and I don't dedicate my life to anything Higher Up but I'd like to say just because I'm bored...

I'm pretty sure that the act of "accepting Jesus into your heart" is not about saying he's great and all. I think, when you accept him, you accept his teachings to and therefore are foregiven for your past sins because God/Jesus/whatever knows that in your heart you are being honest. But if you lie about "accepting Jesus" then you go to hell. Or if you don't at all then you go to hell.
Then that's even worse than the BS flames that the Catholics get. People also gripe like "Catholics can go do whatever they want then just go tell a priest and be absolved..." well, eh... other Christians just got to live life however they want and then accept Jesus when they are about to die by that logic...

Then that's even worse than the BS flames that the Catholics get. People also gripe like "Catholics can go do whatever they want then just go tell a priest and be absolved..." well, eh... other Christians just got to live life however they want and then accept Jesus when they are about to die by that logic...

The Priests don't always absolve. In my Catholic School days, there were a couple priest that refused to do it if they felt your sincerity was not there.

The Priests don't always absolve. In my Catholic School days, there were a couple priest that refused to do it if they felt your sincerity was not there.
I know...if you missed in my first post, I said I used to be Catholic...or I meant too say that anyway...

Then that's even worse than the BS flames that the Catholics get. People also gripe like "Catholics can go do whatever they want then just go tell a priest and be absolved..." well, eh... other Christians just got to live life however they want and then accept Jesus when they are about to die by that logic...

Well, not saying it's right or wrong, but perhaps Jesus would simply only care about the fact that you did the right thing in the end, that you've changed so you're a new person now.

Although the Catholic and Christian systems seem the same to me except for the fact that Christians get to feel guilty longer.

I know...if you missed in my first post, I said I used to be Catholic...or I meant too say that anyway...

Whoops me bad! RTFT! Sorry.....

Well, not saying it's right or wrong, but perhaps Jesus would simply only care about the fact that you did the right thing in the end, that you've changed so you're a new person now.

Although the Catholic and Christian systems seem the same to me except for the fact that Christians get to feel guilty longer.
Well, the thing is, most Christians I know don't have a really strong set of morals...which means most of the things I would consider immoral that they do, they don't consider wrong, and you can't feel guilty if you don't feel you've done anything wrong.

Well, the thing is, most Christians I know don't have a really strong set of morals...which means most of the things I would consider immoral that they do, they don't consider wrong, and you can't feel guilty if you don't feel you've done anything wrong.

Yes that is a very big thing now-a-days that I've seen. Actually it's common in all of the big bible-based religions that I've seen.

I think that they're stuck between being a "human being" and "doing the right thing". The fact that they're still Christian, yet sin and some don't even care, shows that. They want to do the right thing, yet they also believe certain things are correct at other times in being a human. Then many later feel guilty for "sinning". And some selectively take things from the bible, agreeing with "God/Jesus" on certain things and have differing beliefs about what God/Jesus intended with his/their teachings; and those will often have a reason why part of the bible is in-correct.

Bible-based belief has become so much more extended than even groups now-a-days.

i dont remember for sure the answer to this one

it seems to me that "good" people who have never been introduced to christianity have a chance to at least stay out of hell. maybe they end up in limbo with the unbaptised babies? i dont remember but i think that there is some "out" for those who never had a chance to be saved.

if you have had a chance to be introduced to the catholic faith and you reject it, you are doomed to hell.

i DO know that you can be a practioner of a native american religion AND a catholic. no problem.

yeah, there is a problem. Im not a catholic...but I was forced to go to church every weekend for almost 18 years, so I know what I'm talking about. You may worship no false gods or any god except the one true god.

If you worship the earth or whatnot, you cannot be a true catholic.

Then again, listen to me. That's exactly why I hate catholicism and organized religion. People thinking they're better than others. If there truely is a god, I don't think he'll give a shit as long as you're a decent person.

Catholics do not believe that you must be Catholic to be admitted to heaven. Even if you have had a chance to convert, you do not have to be Catholic to be admitted to heaven. Catholics do believe, though, that it's much easier for Catholics to get into heaven than it is for others because the Catholic path is the correct path. Plus, Preists do not and can not actually give absolution. Only God can absolve man's sins. Preists can, however, act as intermediaries between man and God. Humans cannot know what critera God uses to forgive sins. He can sanctify anyone.

Catholics do not believe that you must be Catholic to be admitted to heaven. Even if you have had a chance to convert, you do not have to be Catholic to be admitted to heaven. Catholics do believe, though, that it's much easier for Catholics to get into heaven than it is for others. Plus, Preists do not and can not actually give absolution. Only God can absolve man's sins. Preists can, however, act as intermediaries between man and God.
Priest comes from the Latin word for Bridge.

Priest comes from the Latin word for Bridge.

I did not know that. That is weird, wild stuff.

Well, if a person truly accepts Jesus in their lives, they should do good deeds.

Please forgive me if I am wrong on this not being Catholic or Christian, but I always thought Catholics were Christian.

The Catholic Church is the normal means of salvation for people here on earth, because it possesses the fullness of Christ's truth revealed to man. This salvation is a free gift of God's grace, and we can 'merit' this grace through both faith and works. I use the term 'merit' loosely, because in actuality nothing we do really makes us deserving of this saving grace. Salvation in a Catholic sense is an ongoing process, and we are not 'saved' until we finally enter heaven.

Other Christian denominations (not including Mormons and JW's, sorry) are considered separated brethren, that is, fellow Christians who do not possess the fullness of the Catholic Church. If a separated brother has rejected the fullness of the Catholic Church, then salvation is going to be pretty difficult for him. If a separated brethren does not accept the fullness of the Church through what is known as invincible ignorance (not knowing or understanding the Church), then salvation may be a little easier, but still more difficult than from within the Church.

All people have God's moral law written in their souls, so a person not exposed to the message of Christ and the Church, such as Native Americans before European colonization, have the ability to follow God's moral law to the best of their ability. We can only hope that God will have mercy on such people who follow his moral law and look to what they can see of a Higher Power that is God. Likewise, we trust that God has a means of salvation worked out for the unborn and small children that are stained by original sin (ie the result of Adam and Eve's disobedience) but have not had the chance to commit personal sin (the sins we ourselves commit).

The Church does not have the power to say who is going to heaven and who is going to hell (with the small exception for canonized saints, which is a topic for a thread in and of itself). Even though Catholicism allows for salvation outside the Church, it does not say that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're a good person, or anything like that. It places heavy importance on bringing both separated brethren and non-believers into the fold of the Church, which is the most assured (not guaranteed) path to final salvation.

Opal, I actually studied this before I decided not to be any religion at all...and I didn't read all these posts so someone may have said it before.

Catholics believe that as long as you live a good life by doing good deeds for people...you don't even have to know that God exists or not even believe in him. You'll still get to heaven.

Please forgive me if I am wrong on this not being Catholic or Christian, but I always thought Catholics were Christian.


Most Christian sects believe that the ONLY way into heaven is to know and believe in Jesus. They also believe that the bible is law straight from Gods hand.

Catholics know the bible was put together by men, and as such use it as guidance, since while not straight from God, it contains stories and such of when God did make his will known to man.

Anyway, all churches that I've looked into just use God as a way to make money off the people who are afraid to die. And while I too, am afraid to die, I'm not about to give my money to some televanglist or some Priest.

The Catholic Church is the normal means of salvation for people here on earth, because it possesses the fullness of Christ's truth revealed to man. This salvation is a free gift of God's grace, and we can 'merit' this grace through both faith and works. I use the term 'merit' loosely, because in actuality nothing we do really makes us deserving of this saving grace. Salvation in a Catholic sense is an ongoing process, and we are not 'saved' until we finally enter heaven.

Other Christian denominations (not including Mormons and JW's, sorry) are considered separated brethren, that is, fellow Christians who do not possess the fullness of the Catholic Church. If a separated brother has rejected the fullness of the Catholic Church, then salvation is going to be pretty difficult for him. If a separated brethren does not accept the fullness of the Church through what is known as invincible ignorance (not knowing or understanding the Church), then salvation may be a little easier, but still more difficult than from within the Church.

All people have God's moral law written in their souls, so a person not exposed to the message of Christ and the Church, such as Native Americans before European colonization, have the ability to follow God's moral law to the best of their ability. We can only hope that God will have mercy on such people who follow his moral law and look to what they can see of a Higher Power that is God. Likewise, we trust that God has a means of salvation worked out for the unborn and small children that are stained by original sin (ie the result of Adam and Eve's disobedience) but have not had the chance to commit personal sin (the sins we ourselves commit).

The Church does not have the power to say who is going to heaven and who is going to hell (with the small exception for canonized saints, which is a topic for a thread in and of itself). Even though Catholicism allows for salvation outside the Church, it does not say that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're a good person, or anything like that. It places heavy importance on bringing both separated brethren and non-believers into the fold of the Church, which is the most assured (not guaranteed) path to final salvation.Well said! A very good reply that also points out the flaw I see in the Catholic Church. The holier than thou, self promotion and perpetuation that seems to preoccupy the Church. They are guiltier than most of that sin that permeates all organized relgion, placing themselves above all others. They recognize that God's moral law is written on our souls but still condemn you for not participating in organized religion (particularly theirs). Probably why I consider myself a reformed Catholic, I got over it.

Please forgive me if I am wrong on this not being Catholic or Christian, but I always thought Catholics were Christian.You are correct. The Catholic Church is the current form of the original followers of christ, all other 'christian religions' are off shoots of this church. The Catholic Church has changed alot in 2000 years and not everyone agreed with the direction it chose over time, prompting various groups to go their own way at various intervals.

Well said! A very good reply that also points out the flaw I see in the Catholic Church. The holier than thou, self promotion and perpetuation that seems to preoccupy the Church. They are guiltier than most of that sin that permeates all organized relgion, placing themselves above all others. They recognize that God's moral law is written on our souls but still condemn you for not participating in organized religion (particularly theirs). Probably why I consider myself a reformed Catholic, I got over it.

Did you not actually read my post? While individual Catholics are only human and sometimes wrongly condemn others in their own mind, the Church does not grant anybody - not the laity, priests, bishops, cardinals, or even the pope - the ability to condemn anybody. Holier than thou attitude? Do you not know many Catholics? The majority of them don't look down on you for drinking, smoking, or gambling, but many other Christian sects will. Or does it bother you that Catholicism claims absolute moral truths that don't change with the passing fancies of current cultural societies?

Besides, during Jesus's ministry here on earth, he associated himself with sinners. In fact, he even said he came for the sick, not the healthy. Why then would you expect His Church to not be full of sinners? If Catholics were perfect, then they wouldn't need the graces offered through the Church's Sacraments. Of course you're going to see 'hypocrisy' in a Church made of sinners searching for God's grace - what else would you expect?

there are several things i don't understand about catholicism:

1. why do catholics need to talk to priests for their sins to be clensed?

2. why are people such as mary, paul, and john named as saints when obviously there were human?

3. why are icons made for jesus, mary, paul, and the like?

4. why can't catholic priests marry?

5. why does the catholic church involve so much in politics?

not attacks, just wondering.

there are several things i don't understand about catholicism:

1. why do catholics need to talk to priests for their sins to be clensed?

2. why are people such as mary, paul, and john named as saints when obviously there were human?

3. why are icons made for jesus, mary, paul, and the like?

4. why can't catholic priests marry?

5. why does the catholic church involve so much in politics?

not attacks, just wondering.

1. Because they are a direct link to God. So the Catholics say.

2. Because they were chosen by God to do his work. All saints are human.

3. In order to focus prayers.

4. So they can devote their whole life to God.

5. Because they are rich and powerful...and want more riches and power (this is my opinion, not fact)

1. Because they are a direct link to God. So the Catholics say.

2. Because they were chosen by God to do his work. All saints are human.

3. In order to focus prayers.

4. So they can devote their whole life to God.

5. Because they are rich and powerful...and want more riches and power (this is my opinion, not fact)

Not attacking you, just replying to your points:

1. "Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

2. "And Jesus came to them and said, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to keep all the rules which I have given you: and see, I am ever with you, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:18-20
Does that make me a saint too? Is somebody gonna make a statue of me and let the worshippers kiss my feet?

3. "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:You may not go down on your faces before them or give them worship: for I, the Lord your God, am a God who will not give his honour to another; and I will send punishment on the children for the wrongdoing of their fathers, to the third and fourth generation of my haters;" Exodus 20:5

4. "For this cause will a man go away from his father and his mother and be joined to his wife; and they will be one flesh." Genesis 2:24. The Leviticites were chosen by God Himself to become priests, yet they were allowed to marry.

5. No comment...

Did you not actually read my post? While individual Catholics are only human and sometimes wrongly condemn others in their own mind, the Church does not grant anybody - not the laity, priests, bishops, cardinals, or even the pope - the ability to condemn anybody. Holier than thou attitude? Do you not know many Catholics? The majority of them don't look down on you for drinking, smoking, or gambling, but many other Christian sects will. Or does it bother you that Catholicism claims absolute moral truths that don't change with the passing fancies of current cultural societies?

Besides, during Jesus's ministry here on earth, he associated himself with sinners. In fact, he even said he came for the sick, not the healthy. Why then would you expect His Church to not be full of sinners? If Catholics were perfect, then they wouldn't need the graces offered through the Church's Sacraments. Of course you're going to see 'hypocrisy' in a Church made of sinners searching for God's grace - what else would you expect?Perhaps it is you who did not read my post. I am in fact a confirmed Catholic and my observations of the problems with the church come from one who viewed it from within. I also said that it is a problem prevelant with all organized religions, and is why I choose now to whorship independantly from any organized church. My statement of holier than thou attitude did not refer to the parrishers but to the church hierarchy. I still count church going Catholics among my friends.

Not attacking you, just replying to your points:

1. "Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

2. "And Jesus came to them and said, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to keep all the rules which I have given you: and see, I am ever with you, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:18-20
Does that make me a saint too? Is somebody gonna make a statue of me and let the worshippers kiss my feet?

3. "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:You may not go down on your faces before them or give them worship: for I, the Lord your God, am a God who will not give his honour to another; and I will send punishment on the children for the wrongdoing of their fathers, to the third and fourth generation of my haters;" Exodus 20:5

4. "For this cause will a man go away from his father and his mother and be joined to his wife; and they will be one flesh." Genesis 2:24. The Leviticites were chosen by God Himself to become priests, yet they were allowed to marry.

5. No comment...

1. I don't feel like getting my bible out and dusting it off, but near the very end of Matthew, Jesus gives his powers to the disciples and gives them the power to pass it down. This is were the laying of hands part of become a priest comes into play. A priest can trace that all the way back to Jesus Christ. However, like was pointed out earlier, the Catholics don't accept all of the bible as God's holy word. They realize it was written by and put together by men and accept it as that.

2. No statues have their feet kissed in Catholicism. In fact, no one prays to saints, they ask the saints to pray for them...

3. Statues are made in honor of the saints in the same way statues are made of any historical figure. You don't see people going off praying to good ole Abe in DC do you?

4. A priest's family is supposed to be the church and he is supposed to go be with any member of the church if they are sick or dying in the hospital. He is supposed to care about the entire church. If he is married and has a family, his focus would go to his family first and defeat the purpose.

5. ...

Priest comes from the Latin word for Bridge.
Not quite. Pontiff (an alternative for the pope and the origin of the word pope) comes from the Latin for bridge builder (pontifex). There is all kinds of teaching about how this signifies his building a bridge between G*d and man, but the truth is different. It came originally from one of the old Roman priesthoods (I think Mars) which had the responsability for building and maintaining bridges. When Christianity supplanted the old Roman religion, it assumed alot of the titles from the old religions, thus the Bishop of Rome is Pontifex Maximus, or Greatest Bridge Builder.

As for only good deeds being sufficent for salvation and the doctrine of works, well your information is a little dated. A few years ago, I think for the millenium, the (Roman) Catholic Church abandoned the doctrine of works in an attempt to bring the Protestant sects back, as I understand it they are still working out the details of what this really means. Good deeds are not sufficent unto themselves for entry into heaven, although they are sufficient to keep one from eternal torment. One must also have been baptised and have confessed/repented ones sins. Note that confession does not require the intercession of a priest these days, although it is prefered.

there are several things i don't understand about catholicism:

1. why do catholics need to talk to priests for their sins to be clensed?

2. why are people such as mary, paul, and john named as saints when obviously there were human?

3. why are icons made for jesus, mary, paul, and the like?

4. why can't catholic priests marry?

5. why does the catholic church involve so much in politics?

not attacks, just wondering.

1. For a comprehensive description of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (ie confession), go here http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

2. All humans that have attained salvation and are in heaven are called saints due to numerous references in the NT, especially Revelations. The canonized saints are those few people that the Church has deemed to be in heaven through an intense examination of facts and evidence of miracles after their earthly death. In the case of Mary, Paul, and John, is it really that inconceivable that they are in heaven?

3. All icons and imagery are designed to guide the worshipers thoughts to God and those with him in heaven. Think of it like the photos in your wallet. In the specific case of the crucifix, it is a better religious symbol than a cross, since an empty cross means nothing (Jesus rose from a tomb, not the cross), while a cross containing Jesus's body is a reminder of his death. Note that icons, statues, images, etc., are not worshipped, because that is idolatry.

4. The Catholic Church is made up of many Rites - the one you are most familiar with is the Latin Rite (or Roman Catholicism), which is by far the most prevalent Rite in the US and Europe. Perhaps the next largest Rite is the Byzantine Rite, which I believe does allow priests to marry. Priests in the Latin Rite don't marry because a family has many obligations that come with it, thus unmarried priests can submit themselves more fully to God and the administering of the Sacraments. Remember, Paul himself was not married.

5. Are you referring to any specific politics that I can answer to?

from what i know is that the catholic beleif is that works is what mainly gets you into heaven. christians believe that the only way into heaven is through jesus, which is generaly right, john 14:6 says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." most people have heard the verse. but james 2:26 says "For as the body without spirt is dead, so faith without works is dead also." what this means is to get into heaven is that you have to believe in jesus, but you must also live a good or godly lifestyle. you cant believe in the bible and just go out and murder someone or do something else that the bible says not to do. you have to apply the bible to your lifestyle. and if you still dont dont get its like if you say you're a lawyer and your don't even practice law, sure you can tell people that your a lawyer but your not.

Bii took my simplified version and increased it ten fold. Good post.

I learned the hard way that Christian fundamentalists aren't all that similar to Wolfwood.

from what i know is that the catholic beleif is that works is what mainly gets you into heaven.

Well, unfortunately there are many myths about what Catholicism actually teaches. If you want to know what it really teaches, go to a Catholic resource, such as www.catholic.com, and read through the library there. If you still have questions, try the forum linked off of the main page - the people there are super friendly and will be more than willing to answer questions for you.

Perhaps it is you who did not read my post. I am in fact a confirmed Catholic and my observations of the problems with the church come from one who viewed it from within. I also said that it is a problem prevelant with all organized religions, and is why I choose now to whorship independantly from any organized church. My statement of holier than thou attitude did not refer to the parrishers but to the church hierarchy. I still count church going Catholics among my friends.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your post and responded in an uncharitable manner. I guess I just don't see the holier than thou attitude that you're describing, not even from the hierarchy. To the degree that it is there, I've seen it much less than in other Protestant churches growing up.

1. For a comprehensive description of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (ie confession), go here http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

2. All humans that have attained salvation and are in heaven are called saints due to numerous references in the NT, especially Revelations. The canonized saints are those few people that the Church has deemed to be in heaven through an intense examination of facts and evidence of miracles after their earthly death. In the case of Mary, Paul, and John, is it really that inconceivable that they are in heaven?

3. All icons and imagery are designed to guide the worshipers thoughts to God and those with him in heaven. Think of it like the photos in your wallet. In the specific case of the crucifix, it is a better religious symbol than a cross, since an empty cross means nothing (Jesus rose from a tomb, not the cross), while a cross containing Jesus's body is a reminder of his death. Note that icons, statues, images, etc., are not worshipped, because that is idolatry.

4. The Catholic Church is made up of many Rites - the one you are most familiar with is the Latin Rite (or Roman Catholicism), which is by far the most prevalent Rite in the US and Europe. Perhaps the next largest Rite is the Byzantine Rite, which I believe does allow priests to marry. Priests in the Latin Rite don't marry because a family has many obligations that come with it, thus unmarried priests can submit themselves more fully to God and the administering of the Sacraments. Remember, Paul himself was not married.

5. Are you referring to any specific politics that I can answer to?

1. "Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

2. I don't know. Nobody's to judge who's in Heaven and who's not.

3. "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:You may not go down on your faces before them or give them worship: for I, the Lord your God, am a God who will not give his honour to another; and I will send punishment on the children for the wrongdoing of their fathers, to the third and fourth generation of my haters;" Exodus 20:5

Interesting...though i would rather think of images as a lack of faith. faith is invisible, and God is invisible, so why would we need visible images to strengthen our view of God? visible images risk clouding our mind with unnecessary doubts.

4. Hm, just that the recent news of so many Catholic priests molesting children strikes me.

5. Not really, unless you're familiar with Bishop Zen of Hong Kong.

I'm not sure if these have been pointed out yet or not. If I'm repeating, I apologize.

First, as to Saints. Not all the Saints are human, though most are. For example, Saint Michael is an Archangel. Beyond the seven or so archangels, though, I believe all saints are human.

Secondly, as to married priests. With all due respect, the religious explanations for it are an after thought. In the early Latin Church, priests were allowed to marry. In the middle ages they started willing church property to their children, effectively stealing it from the church. It was at that point that marriage was banned in the clergy. Any explantions of it such as "devoting full attention to God and the church" are secondary reasons created to rationalize the original intention (don't get me wrong, I think they are good reasons. they just aren't the original reasons)

what a saint actually is is anyone who believes in jesus as lord.

1. "Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

I agree. The power given to priests to forgive sins is given by Jesus himself (see the previous link), and the priest forgives sins in the name of Jesus, as an intermediary, since Jesus is not here to speak the words himself.

3. "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:You may not go down on your faces before them or give them worship: for I, the Lord your God, am a God who will not give his honour to another; and I will send punishment on the children for the wrongdoing of their fathers, to the third and fourth generation of my haters;" Exodus 20:5

Interesting...though i would rather think of images as a lack of faith. faith is invisible, and God is invisible, so why would we need visible images to strengthen our view of God? visible images risk clouding our mind with unnecessary doubts.

I find it ironic that you quote the Exodus passage when the Israelites also furnished their temple with lavish gold statues and such. Does your church have a cross hanging behind the pulpit? That sure seems like an image of something on earth. And yes, Catholics falter in their faith, myself included. We don't claim to be perfect. Despite my weaknesses, since joining the Catholic Church this past Easter, I personally haven't experienced any doubt caused by a visible image.

4. Hm, just that the recent news of so many Catholic priests molesting children strikes me.

Surprise - priests are human too! I'm not condoning the situation in any way, but the percentage of priests found to have molested children is smaller than found in the general population. Besides, do you think child molestation doesn't occur in churches outside Catholicism? Catholic priests only get so much media attention because the Church is an enormous entity that acts as a moral voice to our society, and many people would love to see it fall flat on it's face.

5. Not really, unless you're familiar with Bishop Zen of Hong Kong.

After a quick Google search, I read this article: http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1045

How is supporting a peaceful march aimed at the peaceful restoration of basic human rights to Hong Kong a bad thing?

I know of some personal examples of what the lost planet is talking about, but I like to think that this is an exception rather than the norm. The holier than thou types seem to be the ones who were raised in a highly religious atmosphere as kids, while those who come to Christianity from a state of brokenness are the humblest people you'll meet. I've meet ex-drug users and people coming from seriously broken marriages who find redemption in religion and don't feel the need to make everyone around them feel like shit because they remember that they themselves aren't perfect.

I agree. The power given to priests to forgive sins is given by Jesus himself (see the previous link), and the priest forgives sins in the name of Jesus, as an intermediary, since Jesus is not here to speak the words himself.

I find it ironic that you quote the Exodus passage when the Israelites also furnished their temple with lavish gold statues and such. Does your church have a cross hanging behind the pulpit? That sure seems like an image of something on earth. And yes, Catholics falter in their faith, myself included. We don't claim to be perfect. Despite my weaknesses, since joining the Catholic Church this past Easter, I personally haven't experienced any doubt caused by a visible image.

Surprise - priests are human too! I'm not condoning the situation in any way, but the percentage of priests found to have molested children is smaller than found in the general population. Besides, do you think child molestation doesn't occur in churches outside Catholicism? Catholic priests only get so much media attention because the Church is an enormous entity that acts as a moral voice to our society, and many people would love to see it fall flat on it's face.

After a quick Google search, I read this article: http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1045

How is supporting a peaceful march aimed at the peaceful restoration of basic human rights to Hong Kong a bad thing?

1. I still don't get it. Why do we need priests to forgive our sins in the name of Jesus? Jesus is still around us, so what's the difficulty in asking Himself to forgive our sins rather than look for somebody else to do it in name? It's like you would like to talk to the president, who is standing right in front of you, but you actually talk to the chief of staff and asking him to tell the president what you want to say. Jesus came to Earth just to abolish the need for another media to communicate with God.

3. But what's the point of the idols and statues? Furthermore, what IS the point of having idols and statues of mary, john, paul and the like. wouldn't statues just be a temptation to worship them? some people pray to mary, mind you.

4. Perhaps you are right, but wouldn't the fact that they can't have legitimate sex sort of lead them to think about illegitimate sex? Still no idea why Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry, but Pallia does have a point.

5. ooh...his attitude stinks. i don't like the image he's depicting and representing the entire catholic church against the government, and that the church is above law when they refused to hand over priests suspected of molesting children. religion and politics should be separate.

I was told that Catholic Priests weren't allowed to marry for two reasons.

1. Economics

2. Tradition.

-1- The Early Church realised that if its priests were allowed to marry then it would lose loads of income from the Church land (which would have to be passed on to children). However, if it banned priests from having children it would get to keep the land.

The Church benefited from this policy another way, in Europe at the time it was common for second/youngest sons in noble families to join the priesthood (straight into the heirarchy mind). When the noble died, the Church kept the land

-2- The Catholic Church is institutionally conservative. At general councils Church tradition has just as much weight as scripture and Doctorine.

So basically the Church doesn't allow priest to marry because, priests haven't been allowed to marry for a long time.

I still don't get it. Why do we need priests to forgive our sins in the name of Jesus? Jesus is still around us, so what's the difficulty in asking Himself to forgive our sins rather than look for somebody else to do it in name? It's like you would like to talk to the president, who is standing right in front of you, but you actually talk to the chief of staff and asking him to tell the president what you want to say. Jesus came to Earth just to abolish the need for another media to communicate with God.
I do not know if this is actuall Church Doctorine, but I was taught that sins can be forgiven without the aid of a priest if you cannot find one. Recieving Reconciliation is a formality. Also the priest acts as a sentencer and tells you what your penance is. This is something Jesus cannot do without the help of a priest.

why does the catholic church involve so much in politics?

Don't know for sure, but I suspect it has quite a bit to do with the fact that many nobles joined the priesthood, and would run their dioceses (sp?) [or even, if Pope, the whole Church], as a family business. Eventually, the Church heirarchy wasn't made up of true men of God (except for the occasional one like Adrian of Utrecht), but warring families trying to get their to the top.

You must also remember that the Church used to be a significant temporal power, not just a spiritual one. The Church also feels that it has the moral authority over anyone.

1. For a comprehensive description of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (ie confession), go here http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

2. All humans that have attained salvation and are in heaven are called saints due to numerous references in the NT, especially Revelations. The canonized saints are those few people that the Church has deemed to be in heaven through an intense examination of facts and evidence of miracles after their earthly death. In the case of Mary, Paul, and John, is it really that inconceivable that they are in heaven?

3. All icons and imagery are designed to guide the worshipers thoughts to God and those with him in heaven. Think of it like the photos in your wallet. In the specific case of the crucifix, it is a better religious symbol than a cross, since an empty cross means nothing (Jesus rose from a tomb, not the cross), while a cross containing Jesus's body is a reminder of his death. Note that icons, statues, images, etc., are not worshipped, because that is idolatry.

4. The Catholic Church is made up of many Rites - the one you are most familiar with is the Latin Rite (or Roman Catholicism), which is by far the most prevalent Rite in the US and Europe. Perhaps the next largest Rite is the Byzantine Rite, which I believe does allow priests to marry. Priests in the Latin Rite don't marry because a family has many obligations that come with it, thus unmarried priests can submit themselves more fully to God and the administering of the Sacraments. Remember, Paul himself was not married.

5. Are you referring to any specific politics that I can answer to?

Not specially referred to this post, you are doing a good work, much better that many times i could and tried do in english, that is not my language.
I think Byzantine Rite priests cannot really get married, but married men can become priests. I'm not sure but it's kind of memoryi have.

"Christians and Catholics"? Isn't that a bit like saying "Apples and Green Apples"?

"Christians and Catholics"? Isn't that a bit like saying "Apples and Green Apples"?
Depends on who you ask.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Original sin? from what i've read on this thread, is possibly the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Isnt it just an excuse to carry grudges down through the generations?

First of all, the Levites were not the priests ... the Kohain were the priests and the Kohain had(have) severe restrictions on who they could and could not marry - most never married just to be safe.

Second, no non-Jew was ever ordained in either the old or new testaments. Don't even think about mentioning Luke ... he was never ordained.

So I think you're all heathens. :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :p :D

1. I still don't get it. Why do we need priests to forgive our sins in the name of Jesus? Jesus is still around us, so what's the difficulty in asking Himself to forgive our sins rather than look for somebody else to do it in name? It's like you would like to talk to the president, who is standing right in front of you, but you actually talk to the chief of staff and asking him to tell the president what you want to say. Jesus came to Earth just to abolish the need for another media to communicate with God.

As somebody mentioned in another post, confession isn't required to forgive all sins. But in the case of mortal sin, sin which denies the Holy Spirit and severs your connection with God, then an intermediary is necessary.

3. But what's the point of the idols and statues? Furthermore, what IS the point of having idols and statues of mary, john, paul and the like. wouldn't statues just be a temptation to worship them? some people pray to mary, mind you.

Do you sing songs in church to help lift your thoughts to God? Why should we only use auditory tools and not visual tools? And, praying does not equal worshipping. It is a form of communication. When Catholics pray to Mary or any other saint, we are asking them to pray to God for us, much like your pastor will ask the congregation to pray for those who are sick and in need. As far as the temptation to worship statues, I think there are many things in our society that we are likely to worship before statues. I myself have never met a Catholic that actually worships statues.

4. Perhaps you are right, but wouldn't the fact that they can't have legitimate sex sort of lead them to think about illegitimate sex? Still no idea why Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry, but Pallia does have a point.

How many married people are pedophiles, adulterers, and the like? I'm not a priest, but I am a single man and not allowed to have legitimate sex. I haven't committed pedophilia, nor do I have any desire to do so. Pedophile priests are not pedophiles because they're not allowed to have sex, they're pedophiles because they're pedophiles.

Original sin? from what i've read on this thread, is possibly the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Isnt it just an excuse to carry grudges down through the generations?

Adam and Eve were originally in a state of communion with God in the Garden of Eden, where he walked freely among them. But were punished and kicked out of the garden for their disobedience, and that communion was severed. Original sin means that we are not born into that communion. It does not mean that I take on the responsibility for my father's reckful and sinful youth.

For a much more detailed description, see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm