NationStates Jolt Archive

okay, i have an honest question about praying, this isn't just a bait-the-believers topic or anything like that.

let's just pretend, for the sake of simplicity, that God definitely does exist. those of us who don't believe, just set that on the back burner for this thread. my question is, why pray, even if there definitely IS a God?

my understanding is that there are 4 basic types of prayers: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to him for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for something you want, Oops is saying sorry for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is just general awe at how groovy a chap God is. feel free to correct me or add to this list if i am off.

now, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. he's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.

Thanks is likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.

Oops doesn't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? he's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

so what's the point of praying? why would God want us to waste time repeating things that he already knows about us, rather than doing something practical with our time? to me, praying just seems like a tactic of reinforcement, more a tool of the earthly religious establishments than an actual interaction with the divine. i don't get why, logically, anybody who believes in God would pray, since it seems to contradict their definition of God.

yeah i know, i'm having this discussion on another forum.

they are talkngi to god, but god already knows so why talk to him. because he wants us to ask him for forgiveness, but he already knows you want forgiveness. DEMON ATHEIST, I CONDEMN YOU TO HELL

thats usually how it goes

i really just want to know how they get their own heads around it...i'm not trying to talk them out of it (yet :P), i simply want to figure out why they do it. perhaps they just don't think about it much?

It seems to me, or this is how I would think, that prayer is less a way to influence god, and more a way to comfort yourself. Feel better about the situation, or feel less at fault in the "oops" part.

I mean, really. I completely agree with you that it wouldn't change anything in the grand scheme of things, even were god to exist.

All right I will give you an honest answer.

Basically its a warm fuzzy to think somebody is looking out for you.

Sometimes its a way to deal with sadness or stress.

I make it a point to not ask for things(ie money, cars).

Damn! God's bouncers* did a job on me!














* Nuns ;)

It seems to me, or this is how I would think, that prayer is less a way to influence god, and more a way to comfort yourself. Feel better about the situation, or feel less at fault in the "oops" part.


hmm, that's a good point. people ususally pray more in times of crisis, as a comfort mechanism. but doesn't that seem a bit...wrong? i mean, if you're faith intensifies when you want something more, or when you need to ask for favors from God, don't you think he would be a little insulted? like if your kids only call when they need money, you know?

IMO, we pray because

how do I put this in a way an atheist would understand (I'm not implying anything here)

basically, if you were a God, would you really want to be doing all these things for people without them praying in return? If you knew someone needs to pray for forgiveness, and you already decided whether or not he/she was going to be forgiven, why should they NOT pray?
I mean, what if you expected a prayer and got jack shit? You'd feel ripped off wouldn't you?

IMO, we pray because

how do I put this in a way an atheist would understand (I'm not implying anything here)

basically, if you were a God, would you really want to be doing all these things for people without them praying in return? If you knew someone needs to pray for forgiveness, and you already decided whether or not he/she was going to be forgiven, why should they NOT pray?
I mean, what if you expected a prayer and got jack shit? You'd feel ripped off wouldn't you?

but you wouldn't expect a prayer if you weren't going to get it, by definition of "omniscience." God can't expect us to do any different than we will do, because he is all-knowing. he won't be disappointed, ever, because he knows exactly what is going to happen.

and why would he choose to make prayer necessary for forgiveness, given the logic i posted above? he already knows how you feel about what you did, so why would he need you to specifically get into a certain physical position and send him a mental memo about it?

but you wouldn't expect a prayer if you weren't going to get it, by definition of "omniscience." God can't expect us to do any different than we will do, because he is all-knowing. he won't be disappointed, ever, because he knows exactly what is going to happen.

and why would he choose to make prayer necessary for forgiveness, given the logic i posted above? he already knows how you feel about what you did, so why would he need you to specifically get into a certain physical position and send him a mental memo about it?
well then wouldn't he knew you prayed for it? Thus, turning a forgiveness prayer into somewhat of an I.O.U...

well then wouldn't he knew you prayed for it? Thus, turning a forgiveness prayer into somewhat of an I.O.U...

erm, i don't follow...sorry, i'm a little slow today.

Prayer isn't necessary for forgiveness in most denominations, I'm pretty sure. It's just a comforting thing to do.

At least... I grew up in a church, and that's how I felt. The only reason I don't believe in god anymore is because there are too many religions out there each trying to claim they know all about this cosmological stuff beyond our understanding.

I think the big problem here is the problem of free will vs. all-knowing God. Some people believe everything is predestined (ie - forced by God) but somehow still claim to believe in free will - I'm not exactly sure how they reason that one, so I won't mention it.

However, I do believe that God has a plan for everyone, but you have to free will whether or not to follow said plan. With that in mind, I'll add to your list of things to pray for (which might go under gimme I suppose) which is to pray for guidance. I think that God works in everyone's lives, but will not nudge (for lack of a better word) your conscience as much if you do not ask for guidance.

The idea that God already knows ahead of time whether or not you will ask is a little hard to wrap your mind around, and I don't claim to know all the answers on that. I guess an analogy might be that when I come to this website, I know it will ask me for my username and password, but I don't input it until it asks. When I go to Google, it doesn't ask me for a password and I know that ahead of time. ::shrug:: There's really no good analogy for this.

As for the Thanks, Wow, Gimme, and Oops prayers, I think they are more for the person praying than for God, in the long run. You say thanks and wow out of gratitude and amazement. God may already know you feel this way, but it doesn't seem that way to you until you say it. You say oops for the same reason. Gimme is really more of a pacifier I think - you want something and you hope God is going to give it to you so you pray for it. But many people end their "gimme" prayers with a "if it be your will" or something to that effect, acknowledging that it'll only happen if God wants it to. And I suppose some of those might fall under the same category as I described above.

let me make a note


christians do NOT understand omniscience or omnipotence

God (or in my pagan case...Gods/Goddesses/sprits) see prayer as part of the moment of "being in the presence" of your God(s)..a one on one connection. My Gods gave our people their rituals long ago to remind us of who we are, where we come from, and to where we might go. for 10,000 yrs the Cherokee have lived in the mountains of North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Arkansas..and for that amount of time we have risen to the sunrise to greet Grandfather Creator. The Gods know our thoughts, they do not want automatons...they desire our worship freely...freely given, freely enjoyed. Prayers give us not the answers to life, but answers to the spirit..

God (or in my pagan case...Gods/Goddesses/sprits) see prayer as part of the moment of "being in the presence" of your God(s)..a one on one connection. My Gods gave our people their rituals long ago to remind us of who we are, where we come from, and to where we might go. for 10,000 yrs the Cherokee have lived in the mountains of North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Arkansas..and for that amount of time we have risen to the sunrise to greet Grandfather Creator. The Gods know our thoughts, they do not want automatons...they desire our worship freely...freely given, freely enjoyed. Prayers give us not the answers to life, but answers to the spirit..

i can understand pray in the meditative sense, where one "prays" as a way to feel connected to some sort of divine presence or to feel connected to the world in general. but this is not the sort of prayer most publically advocated in America, and i think it fits in a little bit of a different category. meditation is a very different matter than prayer of the sort advanced by Judeo-Christian tradition, and it's their sort of prayer that really confuses me.

but thanks for making a good point: prayer takes different forms than the ones i listed above, those are just the forms used by America's most visible religious traditions.

Here is hopefully a better explanation of prayer and some of the other comments I've seen in this thread. Here goes.

No, prayer in and of itself is not necessary for forgiveness/salvation. What is necessary is an honest recognition of one's state as a sinner, something everyone is, and that there is no human way to overcome this gap and become a non-sinner. The only way is to accept God and His Son for who they are and that His Son died to make up for this gap. Nothing else is required, no cash gift to a religious organization, no months long pilgrimage. Just admit your wrong and ask forgiveness.

As for the purpose of praying, it isn't how you pray per say, prayer is more a simple word to define communication with God. As for the reason, let's use salvation since it's an easy one, follow me here. If you consider yourself saved/Christian than Christ's death is something of a wonderful and unique gift given you by God. And yes this would fall somewhat into the thanks category, but on a longterm note you would want to know God and feel closer to God, who has given you this great gift, and thus by using prayer/communicating w/God we can at least on a human scale feel closer to something which is truly beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Regarding omniscience and omnipotence and free will...
Omnipotence is simply that there is nothing above God on the power scale or diety food chain if you will. With omniscience, it is that God is all knowing, which yes is something very hard for the human mind to understand if it's even possible. I have witnessed many a discussion on this subject even among Christians. In it's relation to free will I believe it is simply that He knows all possible outcomes, knows every possible path our decisions could lead us down throughout the course of our life, everything from being a bum living in the street to being the next Bill Gates or Barry Bonds. And even though He knows which are not the best for us, or will even hurt others by our actions, we are allowed the free will to choose our own path, thus the reason it is necessary to ask for forgiveness in relation to salvation it is a choice that must be made. You either choose to recognize God or you don't it's just that, your choice. Hopefully I've been pretty to the point, if not, just reply in regards to something I perhaps did not explain enough and I'll attempt to elaborate more.


We are Dave, you can not resist.

maybe god gets lonely :(

Well not being a membe of a religion, I don't know how much my imput is worth, but I've pretty mcuh come to the conclusion that there is only one leitimate reason to pray, to praise the creator. You would probably call this a prayer of thanks. Anything is really just God-bothering.

let me make a note


christians do NOT understand omniscience or omnipotence

Let me say, please, I disagree with your assertion: this is very far from truth. It is true, for christians God is omniscient and almighty. Anyway that DOESN'T mean we are not free. Actually, it's the opposite: he created us and any other creature of willingness Angels are too (and don't forget that Satan is an angel, not fighting God, but His project: the redemption of mankind), to let us free to rejoin him, at the end of time. As a parent cannot compulse a son to love him, but can leave him to realize and "reward" his love just because of it. A christian believe that He gave us the definitive proof of his unconditional love being born, suffering and diyng as a man, and resurrecting as a promise for whole mankind. Prayers can be for someone just a comfort, or just ask for something, or anything else, but they are, or should be, first a thanksgiving and an adoration. The Lord, anyway doesn't care so much, I think, about our weakness or lack of faith; the Church has been not made for saints, as Jesus did not die for himself. and faith is not an opinion. It is a fact, a feeling and a knowledge.

Here is hopefully a better explanation of prayer and some of the other comments I've seen in this thread. Here goes.

No, prayer in and of itself is not necessary for forgiveness/salvation. What is necessary is an honest recognition of one's state as a sinner, something everyone is, and that there is no human way to overcome this gap and become a non-sinner. The only way is to accept God and His Son for who they are and that His Son died to make up for this gap. Nothing else is required, no cash gift to a religious organization, no months long pilgrimage. Just admit your wrong and ask forgiveness.

As for the purpose of praying, it isn't how you pray per say, prayer is more a simple word to define communication with God. As for the reason, let's use salvation since it's an easy one, follow me here. If you consider yourself saved/Christian than Christ's death is something of a wonderful and unique gift given you by God. And yes this would fall somewhat into the thanks category, but on a longterm note you would want to know God and feel closer to God, who has given you this great gift, and thus by using prayer/communicating w/God we can at least on a human scale feel closer to something which is truly beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Regarding omniscience and omnipotence and free will...
Omnipotence is simply that there is nothing above God on the power scale or diety food chain if you will. With omniscience, it is that God is all knowing, which yes is something very hard for the human mind to understand if it's even possible. I have witnessed many a discussion on this subject even among Christians. In it's relation to free will I believe it is simply that He knows all possible outcomes, knows every possible path our decisions could lead us down throughout the course of our life, everything from being a bum living in the street to being the next Bill Gates or Barry Bonds. And even though He knows which are not the best for us, or will even hurt others by our actions, we are allowed the free will to choose our own path, thus the reason it is necessary to ask for forgiveness in relation to salvation it is a choice that must be made. You either choose to recognize God or you don't it's just that, your choice. Hopefully I've been pretty to the point, if not, just reply in regards to something I perhaps did not explain enough and I'll attempt to elaborate more.


We are Dave, you can not resist.


My english is not so good as yours to give such clear explanations, I tried anyhow to tell something in my thread. I must say I absolutely agree with you.

Let me say, please, I disagree with your assertion: this is very far from truth. It is true, for christians God is omniscient and almighty. Anyway that DOESN'T mean we are not free. Actually, it's the opposite: he created us and any other creature of willingness Angels are too (and don't forget that Satan is an angel, not fighting God, but His project: the redemption of mankind), to let us free to rejoin him, at the end of time. As a parent cannot compulse a son to love him, but can leave him to realize and "reward" his love just because of it. A christian believe that He gave us the definitive proof of his unconditional love being born, suffering and diyng as a man, and resurrecting as a promise for whole mankind. Prayers can be for someone just a comfort, or just ask for something, or anything else, but they are, or should be, first a thanksgiving and an adoration. The Lord, anyway doesn't care so much, I think, about our weakness or lack of faith; the Church has been not made for saints, as Jesus did not die for himself. and faith is not an opinion. It is a fact, a feeling and a knowledge.
your whole post didnt have anytihng to do with omniscience or omnipotence

I do not know where it was said, but I am pretty sure in the Bible it says that you need to ask or you won't be given. Or something like that. I'll have to look this verse up and report back, but if something similar to this is in place, then it certainly is incentive to pray.

let's just pretend, for the sake of simplicity, that God definitely does exist. those of us who don't believe, just set that on the back burner for this thread. my question is, why pray, even if there definitely IS a God?
God does definitely exist.

my understanding is that there are 4 basic types of prayers: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to him for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for something you want, Oops is saying sorry for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is just general awe at how groovy a chap God is. feel free to correct me or add to this list if i am off.

now, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. he's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.
many things about God are contradictory. there's no explaining this. people have tried, it just doesn't work like that.
i don't believe there is a set "plan". there's a general outline, i think. the choices you come across set the plan into motion, like a 'choose you own adventure' book. God, of course, knows what each choice will lead to, and what you'll choose. so.. it's confusing.. but yeah.
Thanks is likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.
"Give thanks to the Lord your God, all ye people, for he is good."
That's what it says. God does things for people. He loves you, and he's letting you live, even though you don't really care about him. that's caring. if i was God, i probably would have just zapped you with a lightning bold by now.

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? he's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.
so are you saying we should just eliminate the entire book of psalms from the Bible? i mean, God already knows he's cool. it says in the bible to praise the lord, and he will bless you.
so what's the point of praying? why would God want us to waste time repeating things that he already knows about us, rather than doing something practical with our time? to me, praying just seems like a tactic of reinforcement, more a tool of the earthly religious establishments than an actual interaction with the divine. i don't get why, logically, anybody who believes in God would pray, since it seems to contradict their definition of God.
it says in the Bible to pray diligently and unceasingly.
Oops doesn't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).
people have to confess their sins and ask forgiveness to actually be forgiven.

this is just my opinion on it. there's a lot more i could say about this topic, but it would be misconstrued as flaming...

God does definitely exist.

many things about God are contradictory. there's no explaining this. people have tried, it just doesn't work like that.
i don't believe there is a set "plan". there's a general outline, i think. the choices you come across set the plan into motion, like a 'choose you own adventure' book. God, of course, knows what each choice will lead to, and what you'll choose. so.. it's confusing.. but yeah.

"Give thanks to the Lord your God, all ye people, for he is good."
That's what it says. God does things for people. He loves you, and he's letting you live, even though you don't really care about him. that's caring. if i was God, i probably would have just zapped you with a lightning bold by now.

so are you saying we should just eliminate the entire book of psalms from the Bible? i mean, God already knows he's cool. it says in the bible to praise the lord, and he will bless you.

it says in the Bible to pray diligently and unceasingly.

people have to confess their sins and ask forgiveness to actually be forgiven.

this is just my opinion on it. there's a lot more i could say about this topic, but it would be misconstrued as flaming...

you haven't said anything or made any points. how disappointing.

don't tell me "the Bible says." the Bible was written by humans, assembled by a secular dictator who used it to consolidate power, and we have no reason to think it is more right than the Qu'ran, the Torah, the Gita, or any other books.

none of this is actually your opinion, because you clearly are just spitting back what you have been taught by rote. you haven't put any effort into this, because if you had you would have more to say than "well, God just doesn't make sense but this book i have says we should pray to him anyways." it's okay, you're not alone, most believers are just doing as they were taught during childhood, but you really should try to do better. God wouldn't approve of you throwing away the brain He gave you, after all ;).

okay, i have an honest question about praying, this isn't just a bait-the-believers topic or anything like that.

let's just pretend, for the sake of simplicity, that God definitely does exist. those of us who don't believe, just set that on the back burner for this thread. my question is, why pray, even if there definitely IS a God?

my understanding is that there are 4 basic types of prayers: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to him for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for something you want, Oops is saying sorry for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is just general awe at how groovy a chap God is. feel free to correct me or add to this list if i am off.

now, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. he's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.

Thanks is likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.

Oops doesn't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? he's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

so what's the point of praying? why would God want us to waste time repeating things that he already knows about us, rather than doing something practical with our time? to me, praying just seems like a tactic of reinforcement, more a tool of the earthly religious establishments than an actual interaction with the divine. i don't get why, logically, anybody who believes in God would pray, since it seems to contradict their definition of God.

Prayer provides benefits. It has been shown to help people get well and it relieves stress and gives you a peace of mind.
You can get a similar effect from meditation.
on the religious side:
It is written that God knows what you will want before you even pray for it. He also knows what your needs our.
What prayer is for, is to bring about a connection between you and God.
The establishment of a personal relationship with Christ.
When we pray, we do so in the name of Christ.
course if you aren't christian, you pray to something else.

Prayer provides benefits. It has been shown to help people get well and it relieves stress and gives you a peace of mind.
You can get a similar effect from meditation.
on the religious side:
It is written that God knows what you will want before you even pray for it. He also knows what your needs our.
What prayer is for, is to bring about a connection between you and God.
The establishment of a personal relationship with Christ.
When we pray, we do so in the name of Christ.
course if you aren't christian, you pray to something else.

i guess the end part of this makes sense, and is akin to the meditation idea from before. i just want to clear up one thing: prayer has no better effect on treating illness than placebo pills, and only works if the person involved is "a believer" and is aware of the prayer effort. recent studies conclusively disproved that double-blind prayer has any effect, which seems to encourage the view that praying for blessings is useless...God will do what He wants regardless of who asks for what.

or you pray to the same thing with a different name

Maybe prayer isn't for the God's benefit, but for the person doing the praying? It could be a way of reminding someone of what God has done for them.

none of this is actually your opinion, because you clearly are just spitting back what you have been taught by rote. you haven't put any effort into this, because if you had you would have more to say than "well, God just doesn't make sense but this book i have says we should pray to him anyways." it's okay, you're not alone, most believers are just doing as they were taught during childhood, but you really should try to do better. God wouldn't approve of you throwing away the brain He gave you, after all ;).

And how would you know how much effort he or she put into it?

And how would you know how much effort he or she put into it?

forgive me if i am a hopeless optimist, but i think ANY human with the intelligence to use a computer would be able to do better than that. rather than assuming he/she is actually so mentally deficient or handicapped that he/she fell for such weak reasoning and expects others to do the same, i choose to believe he/she wasn't fully applying his/her faculties to the problem.

I do not know where it was said, but I am pretty sure in the Bible it says that you need to ask or you won't be given. Or something like that. I'll have to look this verse up and report back, but if something similar to this is in place, then it certainly is incentive to pray.
Ask and it shall be given unto you.
Knock and the door will be opened.

Matthew.

i guess the end part of this makes sense, and is akin to the meditation idea from before. i just want to clear up one thing: prayer has no better effect on treating illness than placebo pills, and only works if the person involved is "a believer" and is aware of the prayer effort. recent studies conclusively disproved that double-blind prayer has any effect, which seems to encourage the view that praying for blessings is useless...God will do what He wants regardless of who asks for what.
the studies haven't been able to reach a definite conclusion on the impact health. They're still trying to figure out what it is about prayer that has the effect it does.

Ask and it shall be given unto you.
Knock and the door will be opened.

Matthew.

right...but that doesn't explain why such instruction is logical, or why God would make such a demand. all that tells me is that the people who wrote the Bible wanted other people to pray, it doesn't help me understand why God would want that or why others would take the Bible's word for it.

but it does help me know why people still do something so illogical; the Bible tells them to.

right...but that doesn't explain why such instruction is logical, or why God would make such a demand. all that tells me is that the people who wrote the Bible wanted other people to pray, it doesn't help me understand why God would want that or why others would take the Bible's word for it.

but it does help me know why people still do something so illogical; the Bible tells them to.
you got a point there.

the studies haven't been able to reach a definite conclusion on the impact health. They're still trying to figure out what it is about prayer that has the effect it does.

actually, all the studies done to date have been very clear and definitive; prayer only works as a placebo, and usually doesn't work as well as "medical" placebos (where people are told they are getting medication when they are actually getting a sugar pill). studies of whether annonymous prayer lead to improved health have always shown that it does not, except for a few studies that were quickly shown to be unsound, falsified, or unreproduceable (and therefore very suspect). i can dig up links if you really want, i just would rather not take the time right now...i will get on it later if interest is still there.

actually, all the studies done to date have been very clear and definitive; prayer only works as a placebo, and usually doesn't work as well as "medical" placebos (where people are told they are getting medication when they are actually getting a sugar pill). studies of whether annonymous prayer lead to improved health have always shown that it does not, except for a few studies that were quickly shown to be unsound, falsified, or unreproduceable (and therefore very suspect). i can dig up links if you really want, i just would rather not take the time right now...i will get on it later if interest is still there.

Even as a Christian, I have problems with such studies.
1) They seem to be manipulative of God. Either He answers the way the researchers expect Him to, or His ability to answer prayer is called into question.
2) It is almost impossible to track all the variables involved. How can they be certain that no one outside the group was praying for someone who "shouldn't" have been prayed for? Perhaps some of the prayers offered weren't acceptable to God for whatever reason?

I believe in the efficacy of prayer, but trying to put it to some sort of scientific test is not possible.

actually, all the studies done to date have been very clear and definitive; prayer only works as a placebo, and usually doesn't work as well as "medical" placebos (where people are told they are getting medication when they are actually getting a sugar pill). studies of whether annonymous prayer lead to improved health have always shown that it does not, except for a few studies that were quickly shown to be unsound, falsified, or unreproduceable (and therefore very suspect). i can dig up links if you really want, i just would rather not take the time right now...i will get on it later if interest is still there.
some one was trying to use a study by some idiot showing the power of prayer, the conditions set for the study were ridiculously sketchy
1)patients were picked at random from a computer, no holding to any particular illness in the study
2) they assumed only the deisgnated prayer group would be praying for them
3) the conclusion came to those who were prayed for by the group did better (like walking around better and sitting up and eating or something lame) than those who were not. there is no mention of difference in illness

okay, i have an honest question about praying, this isn't just a bait-the-believers topic or anything like that.

let's just pretend, for the sake of simplicity, that God definitely does exist. those of us who don't believe, just set that on the back burner for this thread. my question is, why pray, even if there definitely IS a God?

my understanding is that there are 4 basic types of prayers: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to him for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for something you want, Oops is saying sorry for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is just general awe at how groovy a chap God is. feel free to correct me or add to this list if i am off.

now, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. he's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.

Thanks is likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.

Oops doesn't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? he's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

so what's the point of praying? why would God want us to waste time repeating things that he already knows about us, rather than doing something practical with our time? to me, praying just seems like a tactic of reinforcement, more a tool of the earthly religious establishments than an actual interaction with the divine. i don't get why, logically, anybody who believes in God would pray, since it seems to contradict their definition of God.
Hm...interesting post.

1. Gimmes are requests that you want something - but that something may not be the one that is best for you. Gimmes are a sign of faith, that you are resting your wants and needs onto God's hands and have faith that He will provide you with the best.

2. Thanks is definitely relevant, so you know that God is actually watching over you, and you're returning the glory and power back to Him instead of claiming it for yourself.

3. Oops show that you know that you were in the wrong and you promise not to be in the wrong again. It's a sign of humbleness.

4. Again, Wow would return the glory and power back to Him and admit that you're just so teeny-weeny in the Universe, but still He's looking after you - makes you understand how great He is.

Religion is a personal journey. Nobody can walk that journey for you. Strictly, praying is talking to God, and therefore whenever you are just saying to yourself: "Oh God, please don't let it happen", you might as well be praying.

some one was trying to use a study by some idiot showing the power of prayer, the conditions set for the study were ridiculously sketchy
1)patients were picked at random from a computer, no holding to any particular illness in the study
2) they assumed only the deisgnated prayer group would be praying for them
3) the conclusion came to those who were prayed for by the group did better (like walking around better and sitting up and eating or something lame) than those who were not. there is no mention of difference in illness

There was one that originally showed a difference - only studying prayers for AIDS patients. However, when they went back to do a double-blind study, the researchers wanted results so bad that they unblinded the original results, didn't find anything significant, then reblinded the resuts and looked at factors they had not thought to look at before until they found something significant - so the second study was useless basically.

okay, i have an honest question about praying, this isn't just a bait-the-believers topic or anything like that.

let's just pretend, for the sake of simplicity, that God definitely does exist. those of us who don't believe, just set that on the back burner for this thread. my question is, why pray, even if there definitely IS a God?

my understanding is that there are 4 basic types of prayers: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to him for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for something you want, Oops is saying sorry for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is just general awe at how groovy a chap God is. feel free to correct me or add to this list if i am off.

now, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. he's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.

Thanks is likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.

Oops doesn't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? he's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

so what's the point of praying? why would God want us to waste time repeating things that he already knows about us, rather than doing something practical with our time? to me, praying just seems like a tactic of reinforcement, more a tool of the earthly religious establishments than an actual interaction with the divine. i don't get why, logically, anybody who believes in God would pray, since it seems to contradict their definition of God.


I just wanted to reply to this because I like Bottle and like to hear her thoughts.

For me, at least, prayer isn't about any of those things. It's more about meditation and clarity seeking rather than asking for something. If I'm conflicted about an issue or have questions about my behavior or morality, prayer serves as a time of focus on those issues. While I do believe direct communion is possible, it's not the total purpose of my prayers. If it happens, wonderful. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean the prayer is wasted. It grounds me and helps me deal with the challenges of everyday life by allowing me to reflect on myself and consider my actions and views in a contemplative way and in light of my morality.