NationStates Jolt Archive

So it looks like Kerry has good chance of winning this election simply based on the fact that he is not Bush. But will he find himself some conviction once he gets elected? So far he has basically be a wuss on the campaign trail afraid to talk about the important issues. The only thing he has a controversial opinion on is stem cells, which is great, but not enough, IMO Kerry needs to stop being such a wet noodle. Anybody wishing we had Dean as the candidate?

Dude, wishing you had Dean as a candidate is like wishing you had Buchanan as a candidate... I mean, yeah, a strong stance is good, but don't confuse "decisive" with "lunatic".

*sigh*... If only he'd have taken those anger management classes like I told him to. But yeah, Kerry does seem to have approximately the charisma of a rock, and quite a bit less decisiveness.

Kerry reminds me much more of a Canadian politician than an American politician. Ive seen him talk a couple of times and i quite honestly believe in any country where the only political parties are both right of centre he would be takling what are considered the big issues. Weird American perspectives, if its not about guns or war its not a major issue.

We should definately not elect him as the leader of this country. Do you seriously want someone who can't stand by their own decisions leading this country? Especially the way things are in the middle east right now. Ask yourself. Do you want a flipflopping, spineless weakling ruling this great, strong country?

At least with Dean I could feel like I was voting FOR somebody and not just AGAINST Bush.... and the only reson he was marginalized is because the democratic party has no conviction. (Dean really should have taken those anger management classes....)

Think about it... Dean Vs. Buchanan in 2008... Who would you vote for?

But seriously, how can we get Kerry to stand up for something, and not just this "i'm not Bush" platform?

We should definately not elect him as the leader of this country. Do you seriously want someone who can't stand by their own decisions leading this country? Especially the way things are in the middle east right now. Ask yourself. Do you want a flipflopping, spineless weakling ruling this great, strong country?

Yes. I would rather have a spineless weakling who isn't a warhawk, is fiscally responsible, isn't in the pocket of the oil interests (Heinz isn't like an oil company, Kerry has no vested interest in invading soverign nations) , is scientifically responsible (stem cells), can form a cogent sentence, knows that Reaganomics doesn't work, and doesn't have that slimball Cheney fora running mate.

If it takes a spinelss weakling to prevent this "great strong" nation from becoming quagmired in terrorism and foreign wars, and to fix the defecit, Ill vote for the weakling over the guy with a room-temperature IQ.

We should definately not elect him as the leader of this country. Do you seriously want someone who can't stand by their own decisions leading this country? Especially the way things are in the middle east right now. Ask yourself. Do you want a flipflopping, spineless weakling ruling this great, strong country?

Are you really that clueless? Kerry is currently a Senator. It is his job to compromise, which means there are times that he has to support positions that he normally wouldn't given free rein.

And yes, I'd much prefer a president who looks at all sides of the issue and can pull back and say, 'hey this isn't working, let's do something differently,' than some egotistical cowboy jerk who can't analyze his way out of a brown paper bag and relies on jingoistic dogma. :headbang:

In a recent rally, he said that in exchange for two years military service, the government will pay your way through college. Does he have the faintest idea how much that would cost? How does he plan to pay for that?

The Kerryites here say he will roll back parts of the Bush tax cut and end pork-barrel spending.

Well, his health-care plan alone will leave only $5 billion left over from his gains from the tax cut, and hey, this is Washington. He will not be able to get them to quit pork-barrel spending cold turkey. I already discussed this in "The Kerry Deficit."

Personally, I think Kerry is saying whatever it takes to get ahead. I notice his stances change from region to region, maybe it's mood swings as a result of jet lag, I don't know. What I do know is that democrats in my typically republican state are working their asses off trying to get Kerry our electoral votes and he doesn't care to see us except from thirty thousand feet.

I'm done flaming now. Flame away.

I've gotta see that CNN thing about what went wrong with Dean.

Yes. I would rather have a spineless weakling who isn't a warhawk, is fiscally responsible, isn't in the pocket of the oil interests (Heinz isn't like an oil company, Kerry has no vested interest in invading soverign nations) , is scientifically responsible (stem cells), can form a cogent sentence, knows that Reaganomics doesn't work, and doesn't have that slimball Cheney fora running mate.

If it takes a spinelss weakling to prevent this "great strong" nation from becoming quagmired in terrorism and foreign wars, and to fix the defecit, Ill vote for the weakling over the guy with a room-temperature IQ.

Room-temperature IQ? No, more like a freezer-temperature IQ, lol!

Calling on Zeppistan to re-post his evidence of Bush flip flopping.

Maybe I can find that Daily Show clip where they show Pres. Bush fighting Gov. Bush on the issues...

Yes I would rather have Dean than Kerry but I would rather have Kucinich than Dean.

Dean was kuhl though. The way the media bashed him over being excited was stupid to say the least.

People who are voting "just to get rid of Bush" remind me an awful lot of the Germans in the early 1930's who were so desperate they elected that bastard Hitler. I'd never vote for an odious, malodorous, hypocritical, two-faced, deceptive, treasonous lout like John Kerry. His face, which looks like clods of dog shit lumped together and molded into a human face, has TRAITOR written all over it in blood-red letters. Sorry, Kerry fans, but I just can't stand that son of a bitch. Just hearing or reading his name makes me want to vomit. See www.hanoijohnkerry.com and its many links for more details.

P.S. If you considered that flaming, I'm very sorry. But if it was flaming (which I don't think it was, because I didn't insult anybody here), please don't flame in return. Thanks.

Reaganomics doesnt work? I wonder what the economy in the 90s was then. :/

www.socialistkerry.com too

and buy W Ketchup !!! http://www.wketchup.com/

In a recent rally, he said that in exchange for two years military service, the government will pay your way through college. Does he have the faintest idea how much that would cost? How does he plan to pay for that?

The Kerryites here say he will roll back parts of the Bush tax cut and end pork-barrel spending.

What college? Last time I checked thera re colleges that cost as little at a few thousand per semester or as much as 50k per semester. I highly doubt Kerry was talking about high-cost private colleges... I don't really know about this I'll have to look in to it. As if Kerry was the first president to make unrealistic campaign promises...

Well, his health-care plan alone will leave only $5 billion left over from his gains from the tax cut, and hey, this is Washington. He will not be able to get them to quit pork-barrel spending cold turkey. I already discussed this in "The Kerry Deficit."

Id rather see that money go to health care than to missile defense shields that don't work or corporate welfare. At least he will stop encouraging pork-barrel spending the way Bush does.

Personally, I think Kerry is saying whatever it takes to get ahead. I notice his stances change from region to region, maybe it's mood swings as a result of jet lag, I don't know. What I do know is that democrats in my typically republican state are working their asses off trying to get Kerry our electoral votes and he doesn't care to see us except from thirty thousand feet.

That may be, I don't know. But Bush certainly doesn't give a rat's ass about you either. At least Kerry will give you healthcare. Also, I'd like to see some examples of thsi flip-flopping, a lot of people talk aobut it, but I am yet to talk to anybody who can come up with examples...

I'm done flaming now. Flame away.

Uhhh.... was that a flame? I didn't think anybody else was flaming either. I like to keep my threads bullshit free...

Dean doesn't have as much leadership quality as Kerry. He may have more clear views however.

All I got to say is...."Democrats and anti-Bushites..be careful what you wish for, you just may get it"....

As far as the spineless bit.....the President of the United States is also our Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces....Clinton, the much beloved President to the Dems/lefties...was hated by the military..do you truly want a military that despises their boss?

Well I couldn;'t get that Daily Show bit but this is from a website. Good to use when they call Kerry a fliip flopper.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

July 7, 2004

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

Uhm, ok, some of you were saying that voting for Kerry just because he _seems_ the alternative to Bush is stupid.
I'm not living in US. Maybe Kerry won't be the best president in US, but he just _can't_ do anything worst than how Bush did.
And he won't solve US problems with :sniper: neo-colonialists :mp5: matters, he was a soldier (a real one, not like Bush) and he promised he'll invest money better than in a war. He seems honest and he does not own any oil company. The rest is just blabbing :headbang:

Many in the military hate Bush as well. Maybe the majority are Republicans but we can't hold that against them.

Reaganomics doesnt work? I wonder what the economy in the 90s was then. :/

www.socialistkerry.com too

and buy W Ketchup !!! http://www.wketchup.com/

A lot of people credit the prosperous 90s to Reagan because they don't know anything aobut how trickle-down theory works. Go read some actual opinions of economists on the subject. Reaganomics is the same as Bushnomics, cut taxes, and send spendign through the roof, all while promising not to touch social security.

heres some links, go educate yourself:
http://www.parida.com/reaganomics.html
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1544

Am I the only one who thinks that this whole W ketchup and Freedom fries thing is childish and innane? You guys are really fishing, go start a "liberal media"thread or something.

Uhm, ok, some of you were saying that voting for Kerry just because he _seems_ the alternative to Bush is stupid.
I'm not living in US. Maybe Kerry won't be the best president in US, but he just _can't_ do anything worst than how Bush did.
And he won't solve US problems with :sniper: neo-colonialists :mp5: matters, he was a soldier (a real one, not like Bush) and he promised he'll invest money better than in a war. He seems honest and he does not own any oil company. The rest is just blabbing :headbang:

Kerry's about as honest as a goddamn insurance salesman. :rolleyes:

Am I the only one who thinks that this whole W ketchup and Freedom fries thing is childish and innane?

No. I find 'Freedom fries' racist and repulsive. The French are no better and no worse than Americans are.

Well I couldn;'t get that Daily Show bit but this is from a website. Good to use when they call Kerry a fliip flopper.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

July 7, 2004

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

And so on, and so on, and so on. I challenge the Bushites to come up with half as many (good) examples of Kerry flip-flopping.

As for www.socialistkerry.com I prefer journalistic sources, rather than unabashedly partisan ones, see if you can find something that at least pretends to be objective

Well I couldn;'t get that Daily Show bit but this is from a website. Good to use when they call Kerry a fliip flopper.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

July 7, 2004

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

I'll say one thing: Nobody can EVER accuse this guy of not doing his research!

What are you talking about research?
Any one can find a liberal thinktank and copy/paste some partisan BS.

And the W Ketchup is just funny.

If its liberal BS then refute it.

and I laugh my ass off anytime a Republican talks shit about dems and corporate insterests! lol - Both sides suck ass but the Replicons take the cake.

*not a Dem* btw

What are you talking about research?
Any one can find a liberal thinktank and copy/paste some partisan BS.

And the W Ketchup is just funny.

Partisan? did you READ the post? It consists solely of satements made by Bush or his staff, how the hell can that be partisan? The point it illustrates is that every politician flip-flops, I challenge you to find half as many good examples of Kerry flip-flopping.

W Ketchup is just pathetic, and freedom fries are offensive, (why not call the Beligian Frites if you don't like the french? it would be more accurate anyway) the fact that the right has to turn EVERYthing, into some political confrontation is just stupid. Picking your ketchup because of its political affiliation? Oh please.

If its liberal BS then refute it.

and I laugh my ass off anytime a Republican talks shit about dems and corporate insterests! lol - Both sides suck ass but the Replicons take the cake.

*not a Dem* btw

Really...I'd say Kerry, a man who married more then once to get his money winding up with a woman whose family assets make Bush's assets look like a piggybank savings is in deep to corporate interests.

not a Dem either, but an Independent

Really...I'd say Kerry, a man who married more then once to get his money winding up with a woman whose family assets make Bush's assets look like a piggybank savings is in deep to corporate interests.

not a Dem either, but an Independent

Yes because we all know that the condiment industry is known for influencing national politics. The Mustard and relish lobbby is one of the most powerful in washington, not like the impartial oil industry at all, ketchup has a huge influence on foreign policy. Don't you realize how utterly stupid that sounds?

Salishe, please show proof of this reason for marriage. I expect more from YOU Salishe. Yer a smart guy.

In a recent rally, he said that in exchange for two years military service, the government will pay your way through college. Does he have the faintest idea how much that would cost? How does he plan to pay for that?

Same way that the government has always paid for this program. BTW, this program has a name, the GI Bill. May I give you a refresher course?

After WWII, the US Government passed a bill, called the GI Bill, whereby it gave every soldier access to an education through public universities. As the government actually pays the bills for these universities as it is, the cost is dramatically reduced over paying for a private university. The cost per-soldier, if taken to todays $$$"s, would be $4k per year. 2 years per soldier (only 2 years if you serve 2 years, 4 years if you serve 4), that's $8k total. But, how do you pay for it? Why, out of the military budget, same place you always have. It is far cheaper to pay $4k a year for college than $18k a year to keep a soldier in the army. Plus, during college, these soldiers remain on the reserve, a good pool for tasks such as reinforcing dams incase of a flood, or helping renovate a city block after an earthquake.

Kerry's plan is simply to reinstate an old program that was cancelled.

So yes, he has a very good idea how much it would cost.

Now, the cost of the GI Bill was big in 1945, it ended up costing almost $2 billion over it's decades-long lifespan. However, guess how much more revenue was generated by those people that took the GI Bill? Give you a hint, the number is in the Trillions.

Thanks GB--I was about to post the exact same thing.

Yes because we all know that the condiment industry is known for influencing national politics. The Mustard and relish lobbby is one of the most powerful in washington, not like the impartial oil industry at all, ketchup has a huge influence on foreign policy. Don't you realize how utterly stupid that sounds?

Do you have any idea how rich the Heinz's are???....do you realize just how utterly naive you sound?

Salishe, please show proof of this reason for marriage. I expect more from YOU Salishe. Yer a smart guy.

What...you expect me to know the intimate details of a man's reason's for marriage?...Just that every marriage he's been in has been utterly loaded, and huge contributors to his campaigns.

If it takes a spinelss weakling to prevent this "great strong" nation from becoming quagmired in terrorism and foreign wars, and to fix the defecit, Ill vote for the weakling over the guy with a room-temperature IQ.

We were quagmired in terrorism with Clinton, who really did nothing about it. That just encouraged the terrorists to do more with the obvious result. Thus the attacks in 1993, 1998, 2000 that went unanswered got us where we are today. Kerry will talk and talk, but he will do nothing. He has no answers.

I JUST heard a commercial for him and he said the first thing he will do "when" he is elected is start universal healthcare. How is he going to pay for that? by raising taxes. What happens when you raise taxes? You encourage government spending, and you take money OUT of the economy, thus weakening it. So those who think Kerry has all the answers....better start saving money now, cause IF he gets elected, he will be coming to you for a handout.

Do you have any idea how rich the Heinz's are???....do you realize just how utterly naive you sound?

Yes, I know how rich the Heinzs are. and It doesn't matter. I was making the point that I would rather have president who is in the ketchup industry than the oil industry because I cannot think of a single foreign policy decision that the condiment industry gives a damn about. If you had read my post, you would have noticed that. Since you are incapable of understanding wit or sarcasm I will forgive your flames. Jesus christ, where do you people get off?

So then what is your point Salishe. If you are saying that he married for the money then you should show proof. And if not then what are you saying? The rich covort with the Rich. Who is Dubyas best buddy?
Bandar Bush (http://www.johnjemerson.com/zizka.binladen.htm) I find this relationship much more troubling, don't you?

I say take him back to the woodshed and give him a whoop'n. Then maybe the LIBERALS will stop trying to get what money I have left in my small pockets.

Nothing is free - Government Health Care for everyone is welfare, and the cash to pay for it comes out of the pockets of the working class. Let Widow Heinz pay for all those poor people that can not afford health care. Ya right - how much of her fortune went to Federal taxes?

What...you expect me to know the intimate details of a man's reason's for marriage?...Just that every marriage he's been in has been utterly loaded, and huge contributors to his campaigns.
Quite frankly, Salishe, yes. If you're going to make the charge that Kerry married for money, then you need to back it up.

Ya right - how much of her fortune went to Federal taxes?

Not enough, Im willing to bet.

I say take him back to the woodshed and give him a whoop'n. Then maybe the LIBERALS will stop trying to get what money I have left in my small pockets.

Nothing is free - Government Health Care for everyone is welfare, and the cash to pay for it comes out of the pockets of the working class. Let Widow Heinz pay for all those poor people that can not afford health care. Ya right - how much of her fortune went to Federal taxes?
And why does the money for programs come out of the pockets of the working class? Because the rich and corporations don't pay any fucking taxes,not comparatively anyway. The working poor pay a larger percentage of their income in federal taxes of all stripes than the wealthy or corporations do, and that's criminal.

No. I find 'Freedom fries' racist and repulsive. The French are no better and no worse than Americans are.

Really that offends you?

I simply thought it was retarded and added to the Americans are stupid claims.

Yes, I know how rich the Heinzs are. and It doesn't matter. I was making the point that I would rather have president who is in the ketchup industry than the oil industry because I cannot think of a single foreign policy decision that the condiment industry gives a damn about. If you had read my post, you would have noticed that. Since you are incapable of understanding wit or sarcasm I will forgive your flames. Jesus christ, where do you people get off?

Perhaps you can not think of a single foreign policy decision...but I can, the Heinz's are a huge contributor to Palestinian causes, some of which are dubious in nature....and I have no way of knowing what other causes Kerry's wife would have her husband get involved with. As for sarcasm or wit..what you mean you were exhibiting wit or sarcasm....sorry...it must have been so bad I missed it...don't worry..you're forgiven as well.

Quite frankly, Salishe, yes. If you're going to make the charge that Kerry married for money, then you need to back it up.

Much like the charges that Cheney is somehow benefitting from the war in Iraq...I can put two and two together..it's not the first time a man or woman married for money...he's upped his social station with each marriage., also upped his personal bank account...but Kerry would have you believe he's just like me..ahuh....

If its liberal BS then refute it.

and I laugh my ass off anytime a Republican talks shit about dems and corporate insterests! lol - Both sides suck ass but the Replicons take the cake.

*not a Dem* btw

A valid claim.

I am almost alarmed at how many people will simply wave their hand and speak the dreaded word liberal as if it invalidates everything said.

And all the Anti-Patriotism talk? How long before we start hearing things along the lines of "For the fatherland!" :eek:

When people start getting punished or limited in free expression (freedom of speech zones); we are basically heading down that path....

Really...I'd say Kerry, a man who married more then once to get his money winding up with a woman whose family assets make Bush's assets look like a piggybank savings is in deep to corporate interests.

not a Dem either, but an Independent

-Blinks-

Wow Salishe. I thought I had you figured out. You flamebaiting or do you really belive that? :eek:

Ever think that the Heinz people might be a little smart and plan things out for possible whores?

Wow........

We should definately not elect him as the leader of this country. Do you seriously want someone who can't stand by their own decisions leading this country? Especially the way things are in the middle east right now. Ask yourself. Do you want a flipflopping, spineless weakling ruling this great, strong country?

In that case, the Bush I (Mr. Voodoo Economics and No New Taxes himself)should have never been elected....
And I'd rather have a man who can be wrong, and then admit his mistakes, as president than a man who keeps making the same mistakes over and over again or tries to cover them up (and, yes, I do have a problem with Clinton's "alleged" perjury, although I also believe that it would have been better for the country if it had been dealt with after he was out of office, if for no other reason that it was a distraction).

the Heinz's are a huge contributor to Palestinian causes, some of which are dubious in nature

Since I didn't flame you, I don't require your forgivness.

Contributing to a cause based on conviction is very different from having vested monetary interest in a foreign war (Carlysle group, anyone?) Think of some other way the ketchup inductry influences THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT for monetary gain. And since you missed it, I sarcastically compared the foreign (monetary) interests of the oil industry to the condiment industry, which i guess you are just to jaded to even think about.

Actually Cheney still has stock options with Halliburton and still receives "defferred payments" from Halliburton. So he benefits from keeping them in business. Also, No-bid contracts sure do make a guy wonder....

Much like the charges that Cheney is somehow benefitting from the war in Iraq...I can put two and two together..it's not the first time a man or woman married for money...he's upped his social station with each marriage., also upped his personal bank account...but Kerry would have you believe he's just like me..ahuh....

The fact that his position still remains in Halliburton is pretty damning.

He was never terminated. It is basically a LOA.

He may not get money right at the moment but when he returns to private life, he will probably get some rather nice stock options.

Well I couldn;'t get that Daily Show bit but this is from a website. Good to use when they call Kerry a fliip flopper.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

July 7, 2004

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]
Has Bush flopped his dripper or dropped his flipper? So I guess this would kinda put a dent into the argument about Kerry being a flip-flopper?

... that slimball Cheney fora running mate....

Cheney doesn't look all that slim to me, but that's just my personal opinion.... :p

The fact that his position still remains in Halliburton is pretty damning.

He was never terminated. It is basically a LOA.

He may not get money right at the moment but when he returns to private life, he will probably get some rather nice stock options.

Of course he was never terminated, he resigned his position on the Board of Directors....rather implies a termination to me...and he only has at present $475,000 in stock options (a pittance in the scheme of things) which the GAO found while not illegal yet ethically he should have gotten rid of them.

Cheney doesn't look all that slim to me, but that's just my personal opinion.... :p


Slimeball...
Got to type slower.

EVERYBODY STOP POSTING THAT LIST OF BUSH'S FLIP FLOPS THAT IS THE THRID OR FOURTH TIME IN ONE THREAD, IT WAS TOO LONG THE FIRST TIME AND SHOULD AHVE JUST BEEN LINKED. THE FOURTH TIME ITS JUST CLUTTER.

Gents and ladies..I really didn't mean to get into a Bush-Kerry fuckfest...but I will tell you this...Watch for what you wish for guys..you may just get it, and you have no clue as to how Kerry might change from your golden boy.

In a recent rally, he said that in exchange for two years military service, the government will pay your way through college. Does he have the faintest idea how much that would cost? How does he plan to pay for that?

Whatever it costs, it surely can't be as expensive as the $5 billion/month fiasco our current president has us involved in in Iraq (and wherever he plans on invading next).
(edit)
and hey, this is Washington. He will not be able to get them to quit pork-barrel spending cold turkey.

I didn't see either of the Bushes or Reagan doing so, either, but this is just standard, campaign rhetoric.

What to do about Kerry?

As a member of the international community, my advice to Americans everywhere would be:

Elect him.

Or go to war on the whim of GW's puppetmasters' pocketbooks.

Of course he was never terminated, he resigned his position on the Board of Directors....rather implies a termination to me...and he only has at present $475,000 in stock options (a pittance in the scheme of things) which the GAO found while not illegal yet ethically he should have gotten rid of them.

Ahh but I read somewhere(can't remember where to take it with a grain of salt) that he is still attached to the company. He said he resigned by he was never really terminated.

Just to head off the claims, it was not a political based group(ie moveon).....

Gents and ladies..I really didn't mean to get into a Bush-Kerry fuckfest...but I will tell you this...Watch for what you wish for guys..you may just get it, and you have no clue as to how Kerry might change from your golden boy.

Please Salishe, no need to be vulgar.

If you had payed attention my original post, you would notice that it was about how Kerry is NOT our golden boy, he is just better than Bush. This thread was originally about criticizing Kerry, till it got hijacked by flamebaiters.

Oil is thicker than Ketchup

Why change horsemen mid-apocalypse? Bush/Cheney 2004

Vote Bush, He is the evil of two lessers.

Lets review a few things around here if we could...
1)Bush invades Iraq, rids country of dictatorial regiem and gives the country back to a democratic people.
2)Bush may be responsible for the slow rise of interest rates again and for a deficit, but that would not be if he had not gone to war with Afghanistan and Iraq.
3)Bush had the BALLS to take action against people who threaten this country, as well as the person who was murdering people left and right just because they disagreed with him.
4)Democrats, such as Clinton, sat by on their pretty asses while foriegners bombed the USS Cole, US Embassy's overseas, and killed numerous US citizens with bombs.
5)Clinton was offered Bin Laden on a silver platter by the Saudi government and chose to deny him. Had he been imprisoned the attacks on 9-11-2001 may have been unsubstantial or not even at all.

Therefore lets look and see that the Democrats are strictly power hungry people who dont have the guts to take action in a time of crisis, while the current President of the United States took more action in 4 years than the previous President took in 8.

Salishe said "he (Dick Cheney) only has at present $475,000 in stock options (a pittance in the scheme of things) which the GAO found while not illegal yet ethically he should have gotten rid of them."

So Salishe you admit that Cheney has done something unethical for money. That should be enough right there to make you reconsider your support for him. Gee, ONLY half a million in stock options? I hope he can make it thru the end of the year. Poor broke ass dick cheney.

Salishe said "he (Dick Cheney) only has at present $475,000 in stock options (a pittance in the scheme of things) which the GAO found while not illegal yet ethically he should have gotten rid of them."

So Salishe you admit that Cheney has done something unethical for money. That should be enough right there to make you reconsider your support for him. Gee, ONLY half a million in stock options? I hope he can make it thru the end of the year. Poor broke ass dick cheney.


Pshaw..name me a politician that is clean?....as for poor broke ass dick cheney, how much is Kerry worth eh?...seems not to shabby either..

To Quote The Next First Lady, "shove It!!"

wonder what and/or where??

100% TRUE POLITICAL FACT #1:

No matter who wins this election, about half of the outspoken crowd will be pissed off about it, and the other half will be gloating in triumph. This will continue until the next election, when the same thing happens.

Man, i am so DONE with this thread. Remind me never to put the name Kerry in the title cause it just brings people who want to flame and not pay attention to the question being asked. If you noticed I intented the thread to be answered by people who support Kerry because we have enough Kerry/Bush shittalking already. This was suppored to be a thread aobut how to convince Kerry to not be such a wet noodle, NOT about the Iraq war, NOT about Dick Cheney, NOt about Ketchup, and certainly NOT about Bush's actions as president. You want to continue saying the same ethings over and over again, go post in the relevant thread.

[QUOTE=Zardozia]Reaganomics doesnt work? I wonder what the economy in the 90s was then. :/[QUOTE]

It was about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Reaganaholics have this mistaken notion that somehow poor people benefit from the rich getting tax cuts. Just because they have more money, the rich won't necessarily use it to buy more American goods or hire more employees or raise the wages of current employees (and even for this last case, one would have to figure in how much a person is losing in services from the government due to lost tax revenue compared to how much their wages were increased to determine if they actually benefited).

Pshaw..name me a politician that is clean?....as for poor broke ass dick cheney, how much is Kerry worth eh?...seems not to shabby either..

No politician is ever completely clean...as time evolves everyone will/can be accused of something they did while on the campaign trail or in office. The thing to remember is that the President and VP do not have access to their finances while in office other than those provided by the taxpayers of the United States.

Man, i am so DONE with this thread. Remind me never to put the name Kerry in the title cause it just brings people who want to flame and not pay attention to the question being asked. If you noticed I intented the thread to be answered by people who support Kerry because we have enough Kerry/Bush shittalking already. This was suppored to be a thread aobut how to convince Kerry to not be such a wet noodle, NOT about the Iraq war, NOT about Dick Cheney, NOt about Ketchup, and certainly NOT about Bush's actions as president. You want to continue saying the same ethings over and over again, go post in the relevant thread.

If you want to only be outspoken about Kerry, go post in the America Online forums...they seem to have an extremely liberal view and dont allow posts FOR the Republican side to be posted....good luck and good bye

Sorry Jerks

Had to fight back when they said Kerry was a waffler when in fact Bush does teh same.

back on topic... I say forget what Kerry says or does and just elect him to get Bush out of office and then we can do heavy grass roots work to get a candidate in office that truely represents the people.

People who are voting "just to get rid of Bush" remind me an awful lot of the Germans in the early 1930's who were so desperate they elected that bastard Hitler. I'd never vote for an odious, malodorous, hypocritical, two-faced, deceptive, treasonous lout like John Kerry. His face, which looks like clods of dog shit lumped together and molded into a human face, has TRAITOR written all over it in blood-red letters. Sorry, Kerry fans, but I just can't stand that son of a bitch. Just hearing or reading his name makes me want to vomit. See www.hanoijohnkerry.com and its many links for more details.

P.S. If you considered that flaming, I'm very sorry. But if it was flaming (which I don't think it was, because I didn't insult anybody here), please don't flame in return. Thanks.

What exactly did Kerry do that was treasonous? Did he have his daddy get him out of active duty during Vietnam? Kerry did nothing that thousands of other veterans didn't do after returning home from Vietnam. It was a bad war much like Iraq, and maybe George the wimp would have been on active duty in Vietnam he might not have been so willing to get us involved in another bad war.

Sorry Jerks

Had to fight back when they said Kerry was a waffler when in fact Bush does teh same.

back on topic... I say forget what Kerry says or does and just elect him to get Bush out of office and then we can do heavy grass roots work to get a candidate in office that truely represents the people.


Bush represents the people...of all countries(follow me on this)
He could have taken over Iraq if he wanted to, but being a man of the PEOPLE, he gave the country back to them and pulled out a few of our troops. The ones he left are there to assist the police and soldiers of their country, and other than that have no power.

Sorry Jerks

Had to fight back when they said Kerry was a waffler when in fact Bush does teh same.

back on topic... I say forget what Kerry says or does and just elect him to get Bush out of office and then we can do heavy grass roots work to get a candidate in office that truely represents the people.


Gods Bowels-

No problem, I had the same reaction, and your post was great, I had no idea there was so little fact behind all the people calling Kerry a waffler. I didn't mean to jump on you. Though when it got reposted four times, I start to wonder why the forums are slow. (Not your fault at all)

Thank you. Back on topic.. I agree, we need to just elect Kerry no matter what to get Bush out of office, btu isn't there anything we can do to help convince himto grow a spine in the face of the right-wing agenda? I am afraid he will not have the courage to undo the Bush agenda, whihc is why I asked if anybody is wishing for Dean's amazing conviction.

I owe you an apology too, Jerks. I was actually going to say that I was probably the biggest Howard Dean fan on these boards long before the primaries started. Stephistan and I had a couple of gentle arguments on the subject since she was a Clark supporter and I was a Dean man. Kerry was about 5th on my list, to be quite honest.

I too wish to apologize for my earlier profanity and my attitude You Jerks, I would like to think that if Kerry does beat Bush he'll do better, it's just that I have nothing to base such a leap of faith on.

Pshaw..name me a politician that is clean?....as for poor broke ass dick cheney, how much is Kerry worth eh?...seems not to shabby either..

That is true.

However, how many politicians have soldiers fighting and dying while their company makes a ton of money "rebuilding" a country?

Out of anyone, the people who have the greatest right to protest war are those who have fought in them. Kerry is a war hero with 3 purple hearts.

(Someone at my office walked by and said "Go Kerry" as he saw I was writing about him. I know he is a Republican as I have argued with him about politics before but when I told him I thought he supported Bush he said "FUCK NO!" lol - well that made my day and I thought I would share.)

AWWWWWW....apologies all around....GROUP HUGGERS!!!!!!!..hehe

Me too.

I apologise for adding.

Do I have to hug Salishe? :eek: :p

I owe you an apology too, Jerks. I was actually going to say that I was probably the biggest Howard Dean fan on these boards long before the primaries started. Stephistan and I had a couple of gentle arguments on the subject since she was a Clark supporter and I was a Dean man. Kerry was about 5th on my list, to be quite honest.

Thank you! Im not sure if you really do owe me an apology, but ill take it anyway :D

Yeah, I was a big fan of Dean too before he dropped off the radar, What happened? Did he get axed just cause the democratic party can't unify, or because they are really right of center, and Dean was left? No wonder we have the reactionary government that we do...

Why can't the democratic party get its shit together? This kind of nit-picking is really why Republicans control the govt.

[QUOTE=Gods Bowels]Out of anyone, the people who have the greatest right to protest war are those who have fought in them. Kerry is a war hero with 3 purple hearts.

WAR HERO???!!
bull-shit man, he fought for a time, then protested it! He didn't earn those purple hearts, he REQUESTED them, some kinda war hero, he's just a jerk :mad:

Me too.

I apologise for adding.

Do I have to hug Salishe? :eek: :p


aWWW....you come here BF

[QUOTE=Gods Bowels]Out of anyone, the people who have the greatest right to protest war are those who have fought in them. Kerry is a war hero with 3 purple hearts.

WAR HERO???!!
bull-shit man, he fought for a time, then protested it! He didn't earn those purple hearts, he REQUESTED them, some kinda war hero, he's just a jerk :mad:

Oh ok? Then what about the Silver Star and the 2 Bronze stars?

What about the fact that he was on the swift boats and the shrub was searching for commies back here in the states? Well when he was on duty that is.....

Sorry Just had to do one more!

Oh ok? Then what about the Silver Star and the 2 Bronze stars?

What about the fact that he was on the swift boats and the shrub was searching for commies back here in the states? Well when he was on duty that is.....

Sorry Just had to do one more!
he requested all his medals, his commanding officer didn't think he should get them, but the bigger brasses gave em to him
i over-reacted, sorry, im just tired of people saying, "He's a hero!" and, "He was a great soldier."

Really...I'd say Kerry, a man who married more then once to get his money winding up with a woman whose family assets make Bush's assets look like a piggybank savings is in deep to corporate interests.

And then again, maybe he married her something called "love"? I don't know, and I'm not in any position to say either way. But if you believe you are, I, for one, would like to see your credentials.

I liked Dean too.

Yes he was too liberal for the Democratic party. He had too much support so they had to bash him over being excited and ruin him with the liberal media.

he requested all his medals, his commanding officer didn't think he should get them, but the bigger brasses gave em to him


Interesting. Got any more info on that? A link perhaps?

as a matter of fact...

here http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com
read away

Thank you! Im not sure if you really do owe me an apology, but ill take it anyway :D

Yeah, I was a big fan of Dean too before he dropped off the radar, What happened? Did he get axed just cause the democratic party can't unify, or because they are really right of center, and Dean was left? No wonder we have the reactionary government that we do...

Why can't the democratic party get its shit together? This kind of nit-picking is really why Republicans control the govt.
What happened to Dean is that he was successful with his message, so much so that the other candidates started ripping him off, sometimes verbatim, and when it came down to it, people in Iowa saw "war hero=able to beat Bush on defense" and went with it. New Hampshire followed suit, and the rout was on.

Dean has managed to stay in the light somewhat by continuing to fundraise and lending his name to House, Senate and local races. He'll be speaking at the convention Tuesday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets at least an offer of a position in Kerry's cabinet, should he win.

The Democratic party will always have a problem with nit-picking and infighting--that's what comes from having such a diverse party. I'll take it.

he requested all his medals, his commanding officer didn't think he should get them, but the bigger brasses gave em to him
Bullshit--complete, utter and total bullshit. When you're walking around with a piece of shrapnel in your body that you took in combat 30+ years ago, maybe you'll have some reason to question it, but until then, just shut the hell up. Kerry's not my favorite, but don't even try to question that part of his history.

What exactly did Kerry do that was treasonous? Did he have his daddy get him out of active duty during Vietnam? Kerry did nothing that thousands of other veterans didn't do after returning home from Vietnam. It was a bad war much like Iraq, and maybe George the wimp would have been on active duty in Vietnam he might not have been so willing to get us involved in another bad war.

Let's see...

1)Gave moral aid to the enemy
2)Associated with radicals, anarchists, and communists like arch-traitor slutwhore Jane Fonda
3)In the early 90's, covered up evidence that there are still POWs being held in Southeast Asia
4)Viciously smeared his fellow vets and made up slanderous lies about them (yes, some of them committed atrocities, but the vast majority of them did not)
5)Hell, just go to the website, read it, and check out the links

As for a 'bad war?' Aren't ALL wars bad?

Out of anyone, the people who have the greatest right to protest war are those who have fought in them. Kerry is a war hero with 3 purple hearts.

(Someone at my office walked by and said "Go Kerry" as he saw I was writing about him. I know he is a Republican as I have argued with him about politics before but when I told him I thought he supported Bush he said "FUCK NO!" lol - well that made my day and I thought I would share.)

Kerry, a war hero? Yeah, right. The extremely vast majority of Vietnam veterans hate the son of a bitch.

I JUST heard a commercial for him and he said the first thing he will do "when" he is elected is start universal healthcare. How is he going to pay for that? by raising taxes. What happens when you raise taxes? You encourage government spending, and you take money OUT of the economy, thus weakening it. So those who think Kerry has all the answers....better start saving money now, cause IF he gets elected, he will be coming to you for a handout.

1) When it comes between paying for universal health care or an illegitimate war in Iraq (and who knows where else?), I'd rather have the universal health care.
2) Plus, I'd rather see taxes raised NOW (I'd rather not see them raised at all, but if we're the ones who are making the decisions, I think we should be the ones footing the bill) rather than see the incredibly huge deficit that Bush has rung up passed on to future generations.

Bullshit--complete, utter and total bullshit. When you're walking around with a piece of shrapnel in your body that you took in combat 30+ years ago, maybe you'll have some reason to question it, but until then, just shut the hell up. Kerry's not my favorite, but don't even try to question that part of his history.

i bet he made that one up too
and kerry don't know jack about real combat

he requested all his medals, his commanding officer didn't think he should get them, but the bigger brasses gave em to him
i over-reacted, sorry, im just tired of people saying, "He's a hero!" and, "He was a great soldier."

Agreed.

1) When it comes between paying for universal health care or an illegitimate war in Iraq (and who knows where else?), I'd rather have the universal health care.
2) Plus, I'd rather see taxes raised NOW (I'd rather not see them raised at all, but if we're the ones who are making the decisions, I think we should be the ones footing the bill) rather than see the incredibly huge deficit that Bush has rung up passed on to future generations.

1)I'd prefer neither
2)I'd prefer the repeal of the 16th Amendment, so there would be no income tax

2)Associated with radicals, anarchists, and communists like arch-traitor slutwhore Jane Fonda


This has been shown to be a lie:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/20/MNG4S54RGO1.DTL

you may return to your regularly scheduled ostrich session.

i bet he made that one up too
and kerry don't know jack about real combat
I know you'd like to believe that, but you're still wrong. (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/04/24/kerrys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show/)
WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry has shrapnel in his left thigh as a result of an injury sustained in the Vietnam War, according to medical records displayed by his presidential campaign yesterday. The records include notations for wounds for all three Purple Hearts, as well as for two bouts of pneumonia and "a minor non-specific urinary tract infection."

The shrapnel still in Kerry's thigh stems from a Feb. 20, 1969, attack for which he was awarded his second Purple Heart. Kerry has said none of the three Purple Heart wounds cost him more than a couple of days of service. Kerry was able to leave combat six months early under Navy regulations that allowed a thrice-wounded sailor to depart Vietnam early.

He's carried shrapnel around for almost as long as I've been alive.

1) When it comes between paying for universal health care or an illegitimate war in Iraq (and who knows where else?), I'd rather have the universal health care.

universal health care? for those bums on the streets who have done nothing for anyone including themselves? the people on the street should not be treated the same as the upper class americans! they're on the streets because they have done little to help themselves, so they would vote kerry so they could continue doing squat, but live the same as the people in this country who work for a living.

This has been shown to be a lie:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/20/MNG4S54RGO1.DTL

you may return to your regularly scheduled ostrich session.

VVAW was filled with radicals, punks, pinks, pundits, anarchists, pot-smoking freaks, long-haired revolutionaries, hard-core communists, and traitors of every stripe. Check out my link and the links on that link's webpage.

universal health care? for those bums on the streets who have done nothing for anyone including themselves? the people on the street should not be treated the same as the upper class americans! they're on the streets because they have done little to help themselves, so they would vote kerry so they could continue doing squat, but live the same as the people in this country who work for a living.Universal health care would be primarily for the benefit of those who are working full-time and can't afford it because the companies they work for (Wal-Mart, for example) don't pay them enough. Wal-Mart is the biggest employer in the US and most of their employees can't afford to get the health insurance they're offered, so they wind up putting their kids on state medicare programs. Those are the people who will benefit from universal health care--them and small business owners who will be relieved of one of their greatest expenses.

I know you'd like to believe that, but you're still wrong

it was sarcasm, i know he has shrapnel, but people make such a big deal out of it, none of his "wounds" were that bad, as in, non-purple heart worthy

Universal health care would be primarily for the benefit of those who are working full-time and can't afford it because the companies they work for (Wal-Mart, for example) don't pay them enough. Wal-Mart is the biggest employer in the US and most of their employees can't afford to get the health insurance they're offered, so they wind up putting their kids on state medicare programs. Those are the people who will benefit from universal health care--them and small business owners who will be relieved of one of their greatest expenses.

So, why don't they get outa Wal-Mart and do something with their lives?

The solution? If you live in a state that's unquestionably going to go blue.. vote third party. Conservative, Socialist Worker, SPUSA, Green.. hell, write in Jello Biafra if you really feel like it. If everyone voted their conscience, the two party system would go the way of the dinosaur.

The solution? If you live in a state that's unquestionably going to go blue.. vote third party. Conservative, Socialist Worker, SPUSA, Green.. hell, write in Jello Biafra if you really feel like it. If everyone voted their conscience, the two party system would go the way of the dinosaur.

true true, cause most people are just voting for kerry to vote against Bush, and it is like that a lot of the time

:sniper: .....first kerry and all the other democrats are really retarded. if anyone should run for the democratic election it should be a monkey because even that has a better look on the economy that them so what should we do about kerry kick him off the country :upyours:

So, why don't they get outa Wal-Mart and do something with their lives?
How old are you? 12? Here's a clue--it ain't that easy. I have a friend in Arkansas who has two degrees, a bachelors and a master of fine arts who is working at Wal-Mart because there's nothing else to do there. She's got two teenage kids who are both on the state health care system, is on housing and food assistance, and is working full-time. If she can't get a job outside Wal-Mart, what do you expect someone who barely got out of high school to do for a job?

How old are you? 12? Here's a clue--it ain't that easy. I have a friend in Arkansas who has two degrees, a bachelors and a master of fine arts who is working at Wal-Mart because there's nothing else to do there. She's got two teenage kids who are both on the state health care system, is on housing and food assistance, and is working full-time. If she can't get a job outside Wal-Mart, what do you expect someone who barely got out of high school to do for a job?

well here's a factor, may i ask the college she graduated out of?

:sniper: .....first kerry and all the other democrats are really retarded. if anyone should run for the democratic election it should be a monkey because even that has a better look on the economy that them so what should we do about kerry kick him off the country :upyours:

Where'd you get that flipping-off smily?

Where'd you get that flipping-off smily?

lol, it's in the "more" section at the bottom of smileys

well here's a factor, may i ask the college she graduated out of?

Yeah because if you dind't go to a top college, you must be lazy and worthless. My god the extent of the idiocy that inundates these forums is just amazing.

well here's a factor, may i ask the college she graduated out of?
I don't remember where she got her bachelor's degree--somewhere in Oklahoma--but her Masters is from the University of Arkansas, same as mine.

well here's a factor, may i ask the college she graduated out of?

Again the question of how old are you?

Again the question of how old are you?I'm betting low teens--maybe 15 at the oldest.

Yeah because if you dind't go to a top college, you must be lazy and worthless. My god the extent of the idiocy that inundates these forums is just amazing.

I think he is implying the TV colleges(ITT, etc.).

I think he is implying the TV colleges(ITT, etc.).

So what? Either way i am amazed by the idiocy

Yeah because if you dind't go to a top college, you must be lazy and worthless.

that's not what i said

I think he is implying the TV colleges(ITT, etc.).

that is what i meant

repbulicans are guided by a philosophy of existentialism and nihilism. The core tenet of conservatives is that things dont and shouldnt change.

This messge is given translates to masses as fear, fear of the unknown, fear to know and everything in between. Dont vote for liberals because<fear> they will raise taxes</fear> Dont vote for liberals because <fear> they will have homos turning our sons as tricks</fear> Support Geo. Bush in the war because <fear> if you dont the terrorists will kill you</fear>

Fear, in the Bush administration, is fear of the known, as much as been told. Fear turns to hate, hate of the enemy, whether real or imagined. <hate> those arabs</hate> <Hate> those french</hate> <Hate> those queers</hate> <Hate> John Kerry because...</hate>

Hate turns to violence, violence is the solution, the answer. Only through violence, whether from its enemies or violence the institution projects, is used again as fear. <violence> against those countries against us</violence> and <violence>against civilians in that country because they happen to be in the way</violence> <violence> against protesters in the streets in NYC come the RNC convention</violence> The last one is coming soon...

This post, for instance, will be answered by my opposition, with one of the above tenets. These ideas, BTW, are not the tenets of Christ, which of course the right claims to be on the side of. However, little if any, actions from conservatives have ever manifested itself as good for the people as a whole in the true guidance of compassion, wisdom and love.

So, why don't they get outa Wal-Mart and do something with their lives?

Maybe because "doing something with their lives" requires two things: Connections, and marketable job skills.

The people who work for a living at Wal-Mart probably have neither, otherwise, they WOULD be working somewhere else. So why don't they get marketable job skills? Getting those requires time and money that people who work at Wal-Mart don't have. And connections; they're like money. It takes connections to make connections.

You really seem to be under the impression that working at a store like Wal-Mart is something that lazy people do. Why don't you work stocking, re-arranging, and re-tagging merchandise for 30-40 hours a week and get back to us on how effortless being a stock-monkey is, okay?

I'm going to go back to being a useless Uni bum now and try to figure out how to pay my loans off before I die.

that is what i meant

Couldn't have been. ITT, DeVry, all those technical colleges don't offer masters degrees.. which are difficult and require alot of hard work to obtain no matter where you go.

But anyway, the point of Incertonia's whole anecdote is that people stuck in low wage jobs aren't necessarily lazy or uneducated.

repbulicans are guided by a philosophy of existentialism and nihilism. The core tenet of conservatives is that things dont and shouldnt change.

This messge is given translates to masses as fear, fear of the unknown, fear to know and everything in between. Dont vote for liberals because<fear> they will raise taxes</fear> Dont vote for liberals because <fear> they will have homos turning our sons as tricks</fear> Support Geo. Bush in the war because <fear> if you dont the terrorists will kill you</fear>

Fear, in the Bush administration, is fear of the known, as much as been told. Fear turns to hate, hate of the enemy, whether real or imagined. <hate> those arabs</hate> <Hate> those french</hate> <Hate> those queers</hate> <Hate> John Kerry because...</hate>

Hate turns to violence, violence is the solution, the answer. Only through violence, whether from its enemies or violence the institution projects, is used again as fear. <violence> against those countries against us</violence> and <violence>against civilians in that country because they happen to be in the way</violence> <violence> against protesters in the streets in NYC come the RNC convention</violence> The last one is coming soon...

This post, for instance, will be answered by my opposition, with one of the above tenets. These ideas, BTW, are not the tenets of Christ, which of course the right claims to be on the side of. However, little if any, actions from conservatives have ever manifested itself as good for the people as a whole in the true guidance of compassion, wisdom and love.

you're right in the fact that us conservatives will reply to this, but we aren't afraid of "change" as you liberals claim. WERE AFRAID YOUR GOING TO SCREW UP THIS COUNTRY!!!!! do we really want a man(ifestation) like John kerry running the most powerful country on earth? NO, i can also say, i am christian, and im also pissed at the leftists because they want to completley destroy the Christian religion, abolish it from the US, a country founded upon Christian ideals. Go and try to find a lefty who is Christian! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: whew, im outa breath

You really seem to be under the impression that working at a store like Wal-Mart is something that lazy people do. Why don't you work stocking, re-arranging, and re-tagging merchandise for 30-40 hours a week and get back to us on how effortless being a stock-monkey is, okay?

because what i do is much harder, lets put people from Wal-Mart in the Navy!
and what is with you people? i wasn't saying Wal-Mart was for freakin bums!! :headbang: i used the word bum in universal medicare, and you all get up in arms!

I'm betting low teens--maybe 15 at the oldest.

guess again

guess again

Well why don't you save us the effort and just tell us?

For my own curiosity; what school level have you completed?

I am 15...it's weird to be 15 and have any common sense at all (i.e. be a conservative).

because what i do is much harder, lets put people from Wal-Mart in the Navy!
and what is with you people? i wasn't saying Wal-Mart was for freakin bums!! :headbang: i used the word bum in universal medicare, and you all get up in arms!

Actually, you questioned the quality of Incertonia's sister's degree saying "Why don't they get out and do something with their lives? " this is a very childish and naive point of view. It is obvious that you are a privleged kid whose parents are paying for private college, because anybody who had worked a day in their life would not say something like that.

EDIT: typos

Please show me one credible link that shows that the Democrats want to abolish Christianity.

And please stop with his America wasbased on Christianity crap.Were you not here when that was refuted several times?

Can someone please link this guy to that?

Well why don't you save us the effort and just tell us?

For my own curiosity; what school level have you completed?

ok, im 29, i completed my Senior Year at Annapolis Naval Academy, graduated Senior year high school at UMS-Wright Prepatory School

im outa here, i'll leave you simple lefty's to do your tedius work :mp5:

UP YOURS LEFTISTS! :upyours:

well it looks like college and the armed forces has taught you how to be a rational human being :rolleyes:

Leftist=moron in my book. And my father is a harcore leftist. It's frusterating to hear every day how Bush sucks from your own father.

ok, im 29, i completed my Senior Year at Annapolis Naval Academy, graduated Senior year high school at UMS-Wright Prepatory School

im outa here, i'll leave you simple lefty's to do your tedius work :mp5:

UP YOURS LEFTISTS! :upyours:

SNORE!

Wow I guess he showed us!

And I thought I was a centrist?

;)

Way to dodge and simulteniously back up the claim...

WERE AFRAID YOUR GOING TO SCREW UP THIS COUNTRY!!!!!
With what? Say it with me now: Change.

do we really want a man(ifestation) like John kerry running the most powerful country on earth?

Give it a few more runs with leaders like Bush and I think the E.U. should pass up the U.S. in "powerfullness" rating, so its kind of a moot point. But, yeah, do we really want a man who seems to promote the status quo with very tiny steps forward in issues like the environment and civil rights? I wouldn't mind it.

Gotta hand it to you, though, that manifestation thing was sorta clever.

i am christian, and im also pissed at the leftists because they want to completley destroy the Christian religion

Fear of what? Change.

Hate to break it to you, man, but no matter how much headway the evil leftists make in liberal and moderate Christian churches, I'm sure you'll always be able to find a good ol' fundamentalist nutjob church. Hell, back home if you went to the right church, you could get yelled at for 45 minutes by the ... Uhh... Whadda Baptists call 'em? Preacher?... Minister... Thing, or you could congregate with people who honestly think slavery as excersized in the United States was condoned by God and should be reinstituted.

So, really, your fear here is pretty unrealistic. Religion is like commerce: As long as there is a demand; you'll be able to find any set of beliefs slammed together, whether they make sense or not, practiced by some group somewhere.

Actually, you questioned the quality of Incertonia's sister's degree saying "Why don't they get out and do something with their lives? " this is a very childish and naive point of view. It is obvious that you are a privleged kid whose parents are paying for private college, because anybody who had worked a day in their life would not say something like that.

EDIT: typos
Not my sister--a friend of mine--but the point is still valid. My sister and I have both completed college on our own and while working various shit jobs. She's a CPA working on her MBA, and I've got two degrees in English and writing and currently hold a fellowship at Stanford, and along the way I've tended bar, thrown cases at a grocery warehouse, waited tables and cooked food, and parked cars for a valet service. I'm not a stupid person by any means and yet I've worked for shit wages because there was nothing else available, and it pisses me off to no end when people assume--not you Jerks--that because you work at a shit job you have either no intelligence or ambition or both.

Not my sister--a friend of mine--
oops sorry, i was too lazy to go back and find your post... I dont know why I thought it was your sister... wierd....

Way to dodge and simulteniously back up the claim...


With what? Say it with me now: Change.



Give it a few more runs with leaders like Bush and I think the E.U. should pass up the U.S. in "powerfullness" rating, so its kind of a moot point. But, yeah, do we really want a man who seems to promote the status quo with very tiny steps forward in issues like the environment and civil rights? I wouldn't mind it.

Gotta hand it to you, though, that manifestation thing was sorta clever.



Fear of what? Change.

Hate to break it to you, man, but no matter how much headway the evil leftists make in liberal and moderate Christian churches, I'm sure you'll always be able to find a good ol' fundamentalist nutjob church. Hell, back home if you went to the right church, you could get yelled at for 45 minutes by the ... Uhh... Whadda Baptists call 'em? Preacher?... Minister... Thing, or you could congregate with people who honestly think slavery as excersized in the United States was condoned by God and should be reinstituted.

So, really, your fear here is pretty unrealistic. Religion is like commerce: As long as there is a demand; you'll be able to find any set of beliefs slammed together, whether they make sense or not, practiced by some group somewhere.


Go fuck yourself. You leftist are ruining this country. I am afraid to see it get much worse, lest there be no more America. Change is a good thing. You just want to change the world to:

1. Fit your own screwed up conceptions.
2. Make rich people (who earned their money honestly, most of them) poor.
3. Other things that I'm not going to desecrate myself by saying.

You leftists are so screwed up.

Dammit, I type too slow. Every time I post something, there's about a million posts between mine and the one I was referring to.

I'm no longer high-tech enough to compete! Yarg!

Lets review a few things around here if we could...
1)Bush invades Iraq, rids country of dictatorial regiem and gives the country back to a democratic people.

Gave it back? Do you really believe the Iraqis have true sovereignty when the US is building 14 permanent military bases there with no timetable as to our troops removal?

2)Bush may be responsible for the slow rise of interest rates again and for a deficit, but that would not be if he had not gone to war with Afghanistan and Iraq.

"But according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the single biggest cause of the deficit is the president's massive tax cuts for the wealthy (http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df02032004.html) -- which he conveniently did not mention. Specifically, 36% of the deficit comes from the tax cuts, while only 31% comes from defense/war-related spending increases, and the rest comes from the economic slowdown.... Table S-3 of Bush's 2004 budget 'shows unambiguously that the administration's fiscal 2004 budget proposes a massive annual increase in the deficit' and that without those proposals the nation would return to surplus."

3)Bush had the BALLS to take action against people who threaten this country, as well as the person who was murdering people left and right just because they disagreed with him.

No massive stockpiles + no proven links between al-Queda and Iraq = no shown threat to the US. And before we start using going after a "person who was murdering people left and right just because they disagreed with him" as a moral justification for war, shouldn't we first disengage ourselves from allies that do that as well?

4)Democrats, such as Clinton, sat by on their pretty asses while foriegners bombed the USS Cole, US Embassy's overseas, and killed numerous US citizens with bombs.

The attack on the USS Cole occurred with three months left in Clinton's term, and, according to him, he didn't want to get the US embroiled in a war that would be passed on to Bush. Furthermore, the evidence that al-Queda was behind such attacks was even stronger after Bush took office, so why, if they were such an obvious threat, didn't he immediate pursue the matter? IMHO, it's because they weren't seen as that much of a threat (with an emphasis on the "that much of") until after 9-11.

5)Clinton was offered Bin Laden on a silver platter by the Saudi government and chose to deny him. Had he been imprisoned the attacks on 9-11-2001 may have been unsubstantial or not even at all.

And which crystal ball should Clinton have used to foresee that this would have led to the terrorist attacks of 9-11?

Therefore lets look and see that the Democrats are strictly power hungry people who dont have the guts to take action in a time of crisis....

Doing nothing is better than shooting ourselves in the foot.

while the current President of the United States took more action in 4 years than the previous President took in 8.

He also took more action in 4 years than Bush, Sr. and Reagan (who in fact were actively arming Hussein) did in 12. He also took more action in the 3 months after the attack than the 6 months before. Such statistics are useless because until 9-11 occurred, nearly everyone underestimated the capabilities of the terrorists.

Hey! Leave my messed up convictions out of this, and I'll leave the money your daddy left you alone.

You can profane yourself all you like, though. <EG>

Go fuck yourself. You leftist are ruining this country. I am afraid to see it get much worse, lest there be no more America. Change is a good thing. You just want to change the world to:

1. Fit your own screwed up conceptions.
2. Make rich people (who earned their money honestly, most of them) poor.
3. Other things that I'm not going to desecrate myself by saying.

You leftists are so screwed up.

*fucks himself* mmm that was good

as for the rest of your dribble..... :rolleyes:

Pshaw..name me a politician that is clean?....as for poor broke ass dick cheney, how much is Kerry worth eh?...seems not to shabby either..

Kerry, however, didn't get his money from handing out no-bid contracts to military companies at the expense of the American public.

2. Make rich people (who earned their money honestly, most of them) poor.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Tell me you don't really believe this. Please. Seriously.

Wow, that was great. I can't believe you don't even realize it yourself. Hey, if you want to let America go to sludge, go ahead. I'm out of here as soon as I can be.

EDIT: and yes, I do believe that Kerry would rob the rich.

Everbody go back and read the first post, then read the last page. Its like playing telephone or something.... quite entertaining

now THATS what I want to hear more of... the Conservatives saying they are going to leave the country if Bush doesn't get re-elected.

You made my day Amerius

I didn't feel like reading through this whole thread, but here is that Daily Show clip that someone was looking for.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php%3Freposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon%5F7131.html

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?

You Jerks... it IS quite entertaining... hehehe
It's hard to keep anything strictly on topic here on NS


btw... ty for that link torcia

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?

Good luck finding somewhere to go... foreigners LIKE the protesters because they are an essential part of the democratic process. BTW, we stand by the troops, but not the war. I leave you with some quotes from the founding fathers (and other notabel persons).

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.
- Thomas Paine

"A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution".
-- President James Madison

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
- Samuel Adams

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."
- President Abraham Lincoln

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1912

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
- James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son

"So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we'll be called a democracy."
- Roger Baldwin

"Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion."
- Oscar Wilde

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
- George Bernard Shaw

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
- Dr. Martin Luther King

"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
- Haile Selassie

:cool:

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?

Ok the same question to you.

How old are you?

As to the Foreginers? Yes the do like the protesting especially if they lived under a represive regime. Even somebody on this site said that it was great you could say things and not disappear.

If you knew your history the founders would be smiling at the protesting. That's Freedom of Speech baby!

It's the protesting that keeps the Goverment honest.....Well it was the intent at the time.

Even then, the protesting is what keeps the Goverment from taking the form of say Singapore.

Hmph! Protesting bad? What are those Anti-Abortion people doing?

So again. How old are you?

So, why don't they get outa Wal-Mart and do something with their lives?


First of all, what's wrong with working at Wal-Mart? Are you only doing something with your life if you make a lot of money? So everyone should be a CEO? Who's going to ring up your shotgun shells and Atkins-friendly bacon?

This compassionate conservatism gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling. What's the conservative health-care plan? No one knows, but it involves more money for pharmaceutical companies and HMO's and higher costs for the average American.

Universal healthcare would benefit everyone, even you. Wouldn't it be nice not to have to stay at a job you hate, just so you and your family could see a doctor?

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens. can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?
Another misconception--that protests equal lack of support for the troops. Let me clue you in--when we bitch and protest and complain, it's because we support the troops. We're pissed at the people who have put them in harm's way for no good reason.

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America.

One thing those 'liberal shits' are doing is creating art. You seem to like electronic music, yet your politics undermines the leftist roots of that scene. Because of the politics of the right, the RAVE act effictively closed down facilities who host parties and prosecute people who throw them as druglords. So, unfortunately for you little one, you will never experience the freedom of music and people, at such an event, as I did during the glorious years of fun during the clinton administration... ;)

Get your facts together my teenage friend before you become consumed by your own hypocrisy.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens. can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

Eww a Margaret Mead reference!

A gold star in the smarts column for Gods Bowels!

I wonder how many of my American bretheren even know who she was anymore? :rolleyes:

What to do about Kerry...

This question is easy to answer.. you mean people are having trouble with it?
What you should do about Kerry is obvious, vote for him! Get Bush the mad man out of the White House before he further destroys America. Seems fairly obvious to me!

he requested all his medals, his commanding officer didn't think he should get them, but the bigger brasses gave em to him
i over-reacted, sorry, im just tired of people saying, "He's a hero!" and, "He was a great soldier."

Snopes.com has an article that clearly shows that the belief that John Kerry didn't earn his medals is a myth (http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp). When his CO, George Elliott was "asked why he had raised the issue of a court-martial, [he] said he did so 'half tongue-in-cheek, because there was never any question I wanted him to realize I didn't want him to leave his boat unattended[,]" but still "ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved". The "bigger brasses" had nothing to do with him receiving his medal.

Wow, that was great. I can't believe you don't even realize it yourself. Hey, if you want to let America go to sludge, go ahead. I'm out of here as soon as I can be.

EDIT: and yes, I do believe that Kerry would rob the rich.

You're out of here? I would love to know where you're going to go.

Since you're such a fan of the right-wing and don't like gays, might I suggest Iran?

This question is easy to answer.. you mean people are having trouble with it?
What you should do about Kerry is obvious, vote for him! Get Bush the mad man out of the White House before he further destroys America. Seems fairly obvious to me!

Congratulations, you have made the first on-topic post in over 5 pages! You win the "able to read" prize! You should be proud! Go call your mom! :)

I would like to know that as well. I can't figure out where on Earth the best place for a Conservative Christian to go if not the USA.

Calling on Zeppistan to re-post his evidence of Bush flip flopping.

Maybe I can find that Daily Show clip where they show Pres. Bush fighting Gov. Bush on the issues...

Yes I would rather have Dean than Kerry but I would rather have Kucinich than Dean.

Dean was kuhl though. The way the media bashed him over being excited was stupid to say the least.


Gee, can't a guy take a weekend off to spend hibernating in luxury with his wife?


The post I did on Bush flip-flops is still available:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=316855

And for Salishe etc. who think that Kerry just married for money, I say that this is a pathetic smear tactic without any sort of proof. Further, while people seem to love denigrating him for being rich, they also denigrate him for picking on the rich with regards to his plan to roll back tax cuts for the wealthy. Seems you want things both ways.

So what should you do about Kerry?

Elect him!

The other choice is a poor option... unless you honestly think that the way to make the world safer for America is to make more of the world dislike you, and if you really think that jobs aren't important, but shovelling money to companies that trade with the enemy through offshore subsidiaries is the prefered choice of spending options with tax dollars.


If so - well I can't help you.

-Z-

Let's see...

1)Gave moral aid to the enemy
2)Associated with radicals, anarchists, and communists like arch-traitor slutwhore Jane Fonda
3)In the early 90's, covered up evidence that there are still POWs being held in Southeast Asia
4)Viciously smeared his fellow vets and made up slanderous lies about them (yes, some of them committed atrocities, but the vast majority of them did not)
5)Hell, just go to the website, read it, and check out the links

As for a 'bad war?' Aren't ALL wars bad?

All wars may be bad in the sense that it would be better if we didn't have to fight them), but that doesn't make them morally equivalent. It's funny how we keep propping up brutal dictatorships and then become surprised that the people who suffer under them somehow decide they don't like us.

I'd prefer the repeal of the 16th Amendment, so there would be no income tax

And the money to pay for government services would come from? Thin air?

And the money to pay for government services would come from? Thin air?
the magic money tree duhhh

Kerry, a war hero? Yeah, right. The extremely vast majority of Vietnam veterans hate the son of a bitch.

Does their hatred stem for disagreement with his politics or from his war record?

though i respect you as an intellectual roach-busters i think you are fascist un-American dumbfuck, thank you

universal health care? for those bums on the streets who have done nothing for anyone including themselves? the people on the street should not be treated the same as the upper class americans! they're on the streets because they have done little to help themselves, so they would vote kerry so they could continue doing squat, but live the same as the people in this country who work for a living.

what about the millions of people who do work for a living that aren't covered by health insurance? Or do you think it's their fault they have such low paying jobs that they can't afford health care as well?

though i respect you as an intellectual roach-busters i think you are fascist un-American dumbfuck, thank you

Hey, watch the flames! Knock it off!

Stephanie
Game Moderator

The solution? If you live in a state that's unquestionably going to go blue.. vote third party. Conservative, Socialist Worker, SPUSA, Green.. hell, write in Jello Biafra if you really feel like it. If everyone voted their conscience, the two party system would go the way of the dinosaur.

It's called "compromise", something we sometimes have to do in real life.

Tell me something Stephistan--do you and Zepp have separate computers or do you take turns posting? :D

Hey, watch the flames! Knock it off!

Stephanie
Game Moderator
can i say dumbass then

Go and try to find a lefty who is Christian!

oops, you just found one.

UP YOURS LEFTISTS! :upyours:

Yep, when I see a post like this, the first thing is how christlike such a person who made it must be.

back on topic - GREAT signature link there Steph! If you want to hear some stances by Kerry then click that link.

Kerry actually did somethign ballsy by speaking out about the Florida issue. Although not nearly enough.

Leftist=moron in my book. And my father is a harcore leftist. It's frusterating to hear every day how Bush sucks from your own father.

My father does the same (although not not using such language), and I rather admire his intelligence.

Yep, when I see a post like this, the first thing is how christlike such a person who made it must be.
thats when you get the answer for what would jesus do, that answer being flip you off

Leftist=moron in my book. And my father is a harcore leftist. It's frusterating to hear every day how Bush sucks from your own father.

Its that way for a lot of people. It's especially hard for people whos parents are intertwined right/leftists. They get raised with no political knowledge at all except bush is good, kerry sucks and vise versa.

As a British dude I'd take Kerry. He's not a religious zealot like dubya for one thing. Have you guys seen this?

"Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilization."

"Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected."

Al Queda press release


The stupid wars which the poodle Blair is so happy to join in with just make more people want to be martyrs.

Gundam research, you are slightly more right wing than Atilla The Hun, and I don't consider this flame because it sounds like you're proud of it. A national health system always worked excellently for Britain and Canada. Did you know that 50 million Americans lived below the poverty line? Still, you're probably right, they should all die, its their fault they're all so impoverished eh?

Dammit, I type too slow. Every time I post something, there's about a million posts between mine and the one I was referring to.

I'm no longer high-tech enough to compete! Yarg!

Open the link in another window, post your reply and then close that window (it helps if you have a third-party, multi-tabbed browser [I'm using Enigma browser, which is freeware, although there are many choices out there] rather than Internet Explorer). Now, you're right back where you were before.

Tell me something Stephistan--do you and Zepp have separate computers or do you take turns posting? :D

Yes, we actually each have our own computers and we also have a lap-top..lol I can't stand to let any one use my computer. I can't even bear to watch Zep use it who is a programmer.. hehe. I married him because I love him indeed, but I believe some where in our vows it said some thing about "Thou shall never mess with Stephanie's computer" ...lol :P

Back to some thing you had said, Yes, I was for Clark, you were indeed for Dean, Kerry was my second choice though, you had said he was your 5th.

We would of got involved in this thread sooner, but we had a fabulous week-end get away at a 5 star hotel. No kids! I love my in-laws.. ;)

I'm out of here as soon as I can be.

Is that a threat or a promise? :p :p :p :p :p

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?

If what I'm protesting is immoral, isn't that a GOOD thing, whether or not it's sanctioned by our government? And not wanting our troops to fight a war they should never have been asked to fight in the first place IS, IMHO, standing by them.

Good luck finding somewhere to go... foreigners LIKE the protesters because they are an essential part of the democratic process. BTW, we stand by the troops, but not the war. I leave you with some quotes from the founding fathers (and other notabel persons).

Then they're all communists or pinko sympathizers if they don't agree with our fine and upstanding president, whose greatness is such that I am unworthy to repeat his name.

back on topic - GREAT signature link there Steph!

Thanks, I love it personally. I'm a bit old school when it comes to my politics. The message for me is moving and who can argue what a great song even without the message. My fav part of the actual song it's self is "Nobody's right, if every body's wrong" Some thing to think about indeed. I really do enjoy the political statements added to the song. I listen to it at least once daily :)

Do you want a flipflopping, spineless weakling ruling this great, strong country?
No, I don't, so don't vote for Bush. Bush is the real flipflopping, spineless weakling. Don't be fooled by his "macho" statements about "resolve". Isn't Kerry the guy who actually went to fight in Vietnam? Bush just did two weeks in the Texas Air Guard (not even the fighting foreign army) and then goofed off.

Subsequently, Bush spent the next 25 years unintentionally destroying businesses. Kerry came back from Vietnam and was brave enough to take a stand, openly condemning the war he witnessed. He went to law school and was elected to Conrgess in 1985. If it weren't for his preliminary investigations, the Iran-Contra scandal wouldn't have been uncovered.

W Ketchup is just pathetic, and freedom fries are offensive, (why not call the Beligian Frites if you don't like the french? it would be more accurate anyway) the fact that the right has to turn EVERYthing, into some political confrontation is just stupid. Picking your ketchup because of its political affiliation? Oh please.
Does W Ketchup actually exist? Is it actually endorsed by the Bush administration?

Perhaps you can not think of a single foreign policy decision...but I can, the Heinz's are a huge contributor to Palestinian causes, some of which are dubious in nature....and I have no way of knowing what other causes Kerry's wife would have her husband get involved with. As for sarcasm or wit..what you mean you were exhibiting wit or sarcasm....sorry...it must have been so bad I missed it...don't worry..you're forgiven as well.
No doubt Heinz-Kerry is a feirce zealot for such evil, disingenuous causes as environmental protection. Could she even turn out to be a tyrant backer of an end to the oppression of the Palestinian people? (They're not all terrorists!)

I was actually planning on leaving no matter what. It's high time you liberal shits realize what you are doing to America. That is ruining this great, strong nation. How can anyone have any pride about coming from America if what foreigners see is all of this protesting, not standing by your troops at war?
What? So now political dissent is "ruining America"? Liberals aren't protesting against the troops, they're protesting against the lying politicians who started the war. Authoritarian conservatives like you are doing more harm to America than any liberal ever could. Even in this post, you're spitting on the central tenets of America. Americans are supposed to enjoy the right to free speech and the right to hold any political opinion they like, aren't they?

My fav part of the actual song it's self is "Nobody's right, if every body's wrong"

No arguement here.

No arguement here.

Well, for me, I think there is no argument that both the Dems and the Repubs are just two different heads pandering to different lobby groups and special interest. A two party system is not much democracy, while still better then most get. However, because of my social leanings, which tend to be pretty liberal, as I don't believe it's the governments place to legislate morality, I of course lean towards the democratic party. No question for me on that.

However, what would be truly nice to see is a third and 4th viable party to choose from. There is some thing wrong in a system that claims that any one can become president, but then in the same breath makes it quite clear quite fast "Well unless you don't have 10 million dollars to start with"

However, I truly believe as a citizen of this world, that the choice could not be more clear this election. Bush must go! The White House at the moment is being controlled by complete idealogs who could care a less what you think or don't, they have an agenda. An agenda that was there long before 9/11 and took 9/11 as an tool to be used to further said agenda. That has to be stopped. These are the same people of PNAC who believed a Nuclear war was "winnable" I don't know about you, but that scares that crap out of me. The people who control the American government are out of control. I'm not saying Kerry is going to be some knight in shinning Armour, but this trend must be stopped. Another 4 years of these idealogs.. well, you think you're unhappy now.. imagine what 4 more years of Bush would/could mean with nothing to lose! Electing Kerry, means he will at least be sane. He's got another election to go if elected. Bush has nothing to lose if he gets another 4 years. You think the Patriot act is bad? Give Bush 4 more years and you ain't seen nothing yet! Mark my words!

Ahhh!

Can't we declare this thread Kacked!

Ahhh!

Can't we declare this thread Kacked!

What does "Kacked" mean..lol

Yes, we actually each have our own computers and we also have a lap-top..lol I can't stand to let any one use my computer. I can't even bear to watch Zep use it who is a programmer.. hehe. I married him because I love him indeed, but I believe some where in our vows it said some thing about "Thou shall never mess with Stephanie's computer" ...lol :P

Back to some thing you had said, Yes, I was for Clark, you were indeed for Dean, Kerry was my second choice though, you had said he was your 5th.

We would of got involved in this thread sooner, but we had a fabulous week-end get away at a 5 star hotel. No kids! I love my in-laws.. ;)My girlfriend and I are exactly the same way. In fact, when we lived in Arkansas, and my daughter lived with us, we had three desktops and an old, beat-up laptop in the same home, all running off the same wireless network.

What does "Kacked" mean..lol

It's an old word. I first heard it in an old black and white gangster movie. "He got kacked" mean killed.

Today it means: messed up, broken, not functioning according to design


http://www.thenetbear.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/emote_kacked.gif

We should have an official thread kacker award! ;)

universal health care? for those bums on the streets who have done nothing for anyone including themselves? the people on the street should not be treated the same as the upper class americans! they're on the streets because they have done little to help themselves, so they would vote kerry so they could continue doing squat, but live the same as the people in this country who work for a living.
Wow you really are the classic "angry conservative" stereotype aren't you?

the rich and corporations don't pay any fucking taxes, not comparatively anyway. The working poor pay a larger percentage of their income in federal taxes of all stripes than the wealthy or corporations do, and that's criminal.So, 40% income tax isn't paying taxes? Maybe the working class pays more overall because they outnumber the ultrawealthy (Kerry included) 1000 to 1.

The working class don't pay enough federal taxes to make any difference. The super rich, like John F'n Kerry, don't either. The people who pay 40% are the sort of rich - small business owners and such - who are big enough to fall in the anal rape bracket, but not big enough to successfully play the loopholes and dodge paying.

This keeps the rich rich, and more importantly prevents the sort of rich from joining them. This is why you see always see gazillionaires voting socialist and pushing for "higher taxes." They don't want little people to get into their private club.

So, 40% income tax isn't paying taxes? Maybe the working class pays more overall because they outnumber the ultrawealthy (Kerry included) 1000 to 1.
See if you can find some actual numbers on this, with a reliable source. I hear a lot of people arguing aobut who pays more taxes, it seems like it wouldn''t b ethat hard to research. (and I mean real legal stuff, not just some partisan website)

Yeah, Kacked is right...