NationStates Jolt Archive

...from an ignorant agnostic. It may sound like I'm trying to bash religion here, but I'm not; I'm just curious.
Jesus died for our sins, correct? Because of Eve, all humans are born with original sin. God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway. Am I still on the right track? So God sent Jesus Christ, his son, to Earth, so that he could die, and his blood would, if we were to accept him as our saviour, "wash our souls clean," or something like that. But if that is the case, then what of all the heroes of the Old Testament? Are Abraham, Moses, and the like all burning in hell, through no fault of their own? Most people (Christians) that I know follow a loose translation of the Bible anyway, and mostly ignore the Old Testament, so they haven't thought much of it, but I figured someone here would know more on the subject.

*sits back and waits for the various theories to come flying in*

If your waiting for a logical reply based on the recycled collection of legends and fantastic tales known as the old testament, well.... good luck.

All I can give you is Dante's version, which was that Jesus apparently came to hell, got the faithful who had never had the chance to accept Christ and took them back to heaven with him.

Fair enough reasoning.
Gonna be a difficult one if you really want answers, for a few reasons, i think ...
Old Testament being a composite of a few books, with various extractions from other texts that are somewhat contradictory and thus excised in favor of ruling socio-religious parties in history (Gnostic Gospels, Apocrypha, Jubilee, et cetera) so "flow" seems less disturbed.
Also, SEVERAL reprints, amendments and updates as well as cross-lingual interpretations.
And finally, since the Hebrew faith, although having prescribed a Christ, doesn't formally accept Jesus of Nazareth AS that Christ, are not likely to see the amendments made from New Testament-ers as viable to the whole scheme of the thing.
Someone will probably mention the Book of Job, and if no one else does, let me tip my hat as such!
Good luck to you. Maybe Jay W might have an answer that isn't quite a tautology on this matter.

...from an ignorant agnostic. It may sound like I'm trying to bash religion here, but I'm not; I'm just curious.
Jesus died for our sins, correct? Because of Eve, all humans are born with original sin. God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway. Am I still on the right track? So God sent Jesus Christ, his son, to Earth, so that he could die, and his blood would, if we were to accept him as our saviour, "wash our souls clean," or something like that. But if that is the case, then what of all the heroes of the Old Testament? Are Abraham, Moses, and the like all burning in hell, through no fault of their own? Most people (Christians) that I know follow a loose translation of the Bible anyway, and mostly ignore the Old Testament, so they haven't thought much of it, but I figured someone here would know more on the subject.
Moses, abraham and the prophet all were looking foward to the coming of the messiah and they lived their lives accordingly.
So that when the Messiah comes again, they too will be ressurected to eternal life.
As it is with them so it is today. They will go to heaven cause they believed in the messiah without having ever seen him. That's the way it works today.
Greater is the faith who believes without having seen.

From the very beginning, when adam and eve first took the forbidden fruit, God promised a man would come, pay the price of their sins, and bring them and their descendants into the paradise that is heaven.
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that promise.
All the ceremonial laws, the like the feast unleavened bread, Moses leading the Hebrews through the wilderness, was a forshadowing of the work Christ was to do.
The Passover itself was a foreshadowing of Jesus death for the sins of all mankind. When Jesus was crucified, Passover was fulfilled. Because Jesus was the ultimately lamb. He was the lamb with blemish, lead to the slaughter so that the sins of many would be transferred over to him.

"God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway."

It's really impossible to live a perfect life. Everyone sins. As you said, we're born in sin, so we're fucked from day one until Jesus saves us.

According to my pastor and what I know of Christianity, no one is in heaven or in hell right now. They're all inbetween. Purgatory. Waiting for Christ's return. No one ends up in Heaven or Hell until after the Great White Throne judgment, which is past the Rapture and tribulations.

Many belief systems had elements of human sacrifice.

"God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway."

It's really impossible to live a perfect life. Everyone sins. As you said, we're born in sin, so we're fucked from day one until Jesus saves us.

According to my pastor and what I know of Christianity, no one is in heaven or in hell right now. They're all inbetween. Purgatory. Waiting for Christ's return. No one ends up in Heaven or Hell until after the Great White Throne judgment, which is past the Rapture and tribulations.
The bible teaches that when you die, you stay in grave sleeping until the second coming.
Jesus said that even David and Solomon were still in their graves waiting for the great day of ressurection that will occur at the second advent of christ.

Many belief systems had elements of human sacrifice.

Which isn't the point.

I know a lot of Christians who are troubled by this question. Were native Americans exempt from the promise of a messiah because they lived on another continent? I only know one Christian sect that answers that question, and people on this forum don't tend to like Mormons.

Acts 2: 29-36

9. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts3:22-24
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Which isn't the point.

I know a lot of Christians who are troubled by this question. Were native Americans exempt from the promise of a messiah because they lived on another continent? I only know one Christian sect that answers that question, and people on this forum don't tend to like Mormons.
Nature has testified of the existence of God to the Native Americans. In their ignorance they tried to express this vague knowledge with their religions.
The attributes of the great sky spirit, the tribes have different names for him, is very similar to those of God.
The Aztecs has a fellow (Queztalcoatl) in their religion, who was born a man, was supposedly killed and risen up again, went away but promised to return.
THe anceint Egyptians had a similar story.
The names are different, and the knowledge of the true faith lacking, but you can tell in a lot of these cases, the same being is at work.

The ones who are truely in danger of damnation are those who do hear the word of God and reject it.
As Jesus himself has said, it will be easier for say the zoarostrians and hindus, who have never heard the word of God, to enter into heaven than it will be for those who heard the word but rejected it, or for the hypocrites in the churches.

so basically, if you;re claiming to be christian but you support abortion or gay rights and do other stuff that is contrary to christianity,
or you deliberately reject Christ after hearing the word,
well,
the native americans and the headhunters will get into heaven before you do.

Why don't you ring up a priest (preferably not a fundamentalist) and ask him/her?

Also, there is no such thing as Purgatory. It is never mentioned in the Bibles. It was dreamed up by the Catholics as a way to answer questions of this sort and a way to make more money as the sale of Plenary Indulgences could get souls out of Purgatory and money could be given to Priests to Pray for the souls that they might get them out.

Purgatory is a myth. It has nothing to do with the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Also, the way to salvation was a bit off on the original statement.

After the Fall of Adam, all men are evil and depraved creatures, there is not one aspect of man that is not permeated with evil. This is the concept of Total Depravity. A very scriptural concept. Now, God gave us the Law that those who follow it would be given salvation, but if you break one part of the law, you break it all. It is impossible to keep it. It wasn't as if God noticed a flaw in his plans and then decided, "Oh, Jesus will patch this up." It was a design from the beginning. Infact, those who will be saved and condemned are set down from the foundation of the earth. God Sent Jesus Christ to Die for our sins and suffer the punishment we as the world deserved. Through his death and ressurection, he promises eternal life unto all that believe.

Now the question that comes up, is "who truly believes?". There will always be some who do and some who don't and some who half heartedly do. Jesus was sent to save a select few, not based upon anything they did. Their names were already written down from the beginning of time. It has nothing to do with anything they did on this world. The people he was sent to save are called the Elect. While Good works don't get you into heaven. The Performance of Good works is a sign of who is elect. God has set down in the scripture the characteristics of those who he has elected to eternal life.
God has no obligation to save any of us. He is bound by nothing but his supreme sovreign will. But it is through his benevolence that he does save some, though the majority will Perish.

The ones who are truely in danger of damnation are those who do hear the word of God and reject it.
As Jesus himself has said, it will be easier for say the zoarostrians and hindus, who have never heard the word of God, to enter into heaven than it will be for those who heard the word but rejected it, or for the hypocrites in the churches.

so basically, if you;re claiming to be christian but you support abortion or gay rights and do other stuff that is contrary to christianity,
or you deliberately reject Christ after hearing the word,
well,
the native americans and the headhunters will get into heaven before you do.
Whoa... just a minute here. Who made you the definitive authority on how Jesus felt about abortion or gay rights? I hate the way you so called 'Christians' use the name of a man who was a champion of the downtrodden and the outcast to front your persecution of those who are different than you. That sort of drivel has no buisiness being associated with a man who washed the feet of beggars and embraced lepers.

The names are different, and the knowledge of the true faith lacking, but you can tell in a lot of these cases, the same being is at work.

http://www.epals.com/20thcentury/photos/1978jonestown2.jpg

...wonder what got that guy? :D

Also, there is no such thing as Purgatory. It is never mentioned in the Bibles. It was dreamed up by the Catholics as a way to answer questions of this sort and a way to make more money as the sale of Plenary Indulgences could get souls out of Purgatory and money could be given to Priests to Pray for the souls that they might get them out.

Purgatory is a myth. It has nothing to do with the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Also, the way to salvation was a bit off on the original statement.

After the Fall of Adam, all men are evil and depraved creatures, there is not one aspect of man that is not permeated with evil. This is the concept of Total Depravity. A very scriptural concept. Now, God gave us the Law that those who follow it would be given salvation, but if you break one part of the law, you break it all. It is impossible to keep it. It wasn't as if God noticed a flaw in his plans and then decided, "Oh, Jesus will patch this up." It was a design from the beginning. Infact, those who will be saved and condemned are set down from the foundation of the earth. God Sent Jesus Christ to Die for our sins and suffer the punishment we as the world deserved. Through his death and ressurection, he promises eternal life unto all that believe.

Now the question that comes up, is "who truly believes?". There will always be some who do and some who don't and some who half heartedly do. Jesus was sent to save a select few, not based upon anything they did. Their names were already written down from the beginning of time. It has nothing to do with anything they did on this world. The people he was sent to save are called the Elect. While Good works don't get you into heaven. The Performance of Good works is a sign of who is elect. God has set down in the scripture the characteristics of those who he has elected to eternal life.
God has no obligation to save any of us. He is bound by nothing but his supreme sovreign will. But it is through his benevolence that he does save some, though the majority will Perish.

then you;re bringing in predestination which is know where taught in the bible.
people have a choice: salvation or damnation
god won't choose for them. every one has the freedom to choose and they must choose for themselves
there is no predestination

Actually, the Answer is quite simple if you know the Jewish roots of Christianity. All the "good" people that existed before Christ were believe to have gone to a place known as Sheol. In Sheol the souls of the Prophets like Moses and Ezekiel were said to be resting. Asleep. In the Apostles Creed, we hear about Christ "descending into hell", or something along those lines. Those aren't the exact words. Many ask, how could Christ go to hell when noone gets out of hell? Thats a good question and has to do with the fact that "hell" in this instance is a mistranslation. What is referred to in this passage is "Underworld" or whatever word you prefer for place of the dead. Hades for those who know greek mythology. "Sheol" would be the best translation considering the jewish roots of the faith. Why did Christ go to the underworld? To open the gates of Sheol, let the prophets out and open for them the gates of heaven. I hope that answers your question.

He isn't the definitive authority. What you liberal athiests seem to miss is that we arent just pulling this stuff out of our butts. God gave us his word. His inerring infallible word. Abortion is unChristian according to the Bible, and according to God and Christ. Gays are called an Abomination unto the Lord many times. Romans is a good one to look at for homosexuals. We are passing along what GOD has said. This isn't what we came up with on our own.

I don't know what Bible you read. But there is predestination. "Them whom he calls, them also he predestinates." very familiar line. I can make a very solid argument for predestination. But that woudl be another thread if you want to get into that. I just don't want to do it at what is 3 in the morning for me. Send me a telle. I am always up for a religious debate.

He isn't the definitive authority. What you liberal athiests seem to miss is that we arent just pulling this stuff out of our butts. God gave us his word. His inerring infallible word. Abortion is unChristian according to the Bible, and according to God and Christ. Gays are called an Abomination unto the Lord many times. Romans is a good one to look at for homosexuals. We are passing along what GOD has said. This isn't what we came up with on our own.God didn't write the bible you hick, men did. You pass along these twisted fairy tales of the old testament like they're suposed to mean something. The truth is and you know it, that if Christ was around today he'd look at your intolerance and sadly shake his head. Nothing in his teachings preach anything but love and acceptance for our fellow man. Leave his name out of your hangups.

There are quite a few books that have been kept out of the bible because of the political climates of the times. One of them was where Christ went into hell.

I learned this quite a while ago, so it may not be exactly right on the money.

Reich, are you a Jehovah's Witness? That sounds pretty close to what I know of their beliefs.

Since this is my first post, I'm probably diving into a flame war, especially since someone mentioned that people on this forum don't seem especially fond of Mormons.

We believe that people who died before Christ's first coming remained asleep, and that with his resurrection, the "First Resurrection", or the first stage of them (for the most righteous), began. Many of the prophets and righteous people of old rose and were resurrected then.

Since then, the dead go to one of two metaphoric places -- paradise or prison. Paradise isn't necessarily a wonderfully beautiful place and prison a pit of fire. "Prison" is just the spiritual anguish of those who have not accepted Christ, and cannot progress. They must learn of him and be baptized (we do ordinances for the dead, hence our interest in geneology) in order to move to paradise. Those in paradise teach those in prison. All stay in one or the other until his second coming, when everyone will be judged and resurrections will begin again.

So anyone who didn't have an opportunity to learn about Christ and accept him in this life gets a chance in the next.

And on the native americans, south and north -- we believe that when Christ (after his resurrection) said he had other sheep, that's who he meant. The Book of Mormon is their story, about a family who was led out of Jerusalem way back in the old testament time and sailed to the American continent (considering references to a narrow strip of land, church historians say somewhere around Panama). There, their people had other prophets of God, just like in the middle east, and they prophesied of Christ, his birth and death. Christ appeared and ministered unto them.

Assumably, that's where the legend of Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent, came from.

...I think I covered everything I wanted to. It's a little late.

then you;re bringing in predestination which is know where taught in the bible.
people have a choice: salvation or damnation
god won't choose for them. every one has the freedom to choose and they must choose for themselves
there is no predestination

Surely if God is omnipotent and all knowing, he knows how we're going to turn out anyway? It's like being able to program a ballistics equation into a computer and you'll know where a rocket ends up: The more detailed the program, the more exact the imput and the more powerful the processor, the better the model of where the rocket ends up.
Therefore, since God as put forward by the Judaeo-Christian prophets and Muhammed has perfect knowledge of the ways of the universe, knows everything about where and how every particle began and has the equivalent of infinite intelligence/processing power, He can know with certainty how it will all turn out. No need for predestination- He just knows you that well. It's like predicting someone will slam pro-gay and pro-choice Christians in a thread like this.

IC: The Grand Seme has examined the Christian teachings and has found no threat to our Nationstate from this text.

OOC: Romans doesn't deal with homosexuality as an inborn quality, which is what it is today. Instead it deals with the Greco-Roman tradition of married men using under-age boys for sex so that they weren't technically cheating, and the risk of pregnancy was non-existant, and the sects that engaged in same-sex orgies to please their gods. These were heterosexuals going against their natural use to engage in homosexual acts, just as it would be aginst a homosexual's natural use to engage in heterosexual acts.
The next instance that will probably be brought up is the story of Sodom. That's a story of gang-rape, it has no relation to consensual acts between two people of any gender-mix. As for the verse of Leviticus, no-one who eats pork has a position from which to tell me I should follow that injunction.

God didn't write the bible you hick, men did. You pass along these twisted fairy tales of the old testament like they're suposed to mean something. The truth is and you know it, that if Christ was around today he'd look at your intolerance and sadly shake his head. Nothing in his teachings preach anything but love and acceptance for our fellow man. Leave his name out of your hangups.
Romans 2
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 2:12-16
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

28-29
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans3:27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 2
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.Yada Yada Yada, Men have been subjugating and controling their fellows for thousands of years by telling them that it is the 'will of God', it doesn't mean it is the truth or right. Face it Jesus came along and slapped the face of the established religion who preached rigid control and obiedience to the 'rules' (that those who were in control set) with a radical notion of a loving, accepting and nurturing god. Guess what? They cruxified him for it, because he was messing with their control over the lives of the populace. Now you have perverted a religion that supposedly is his teachings into something promoting the same rigid control and obiedience to the 'rules' established by men who want to control how we live our lives. Your pushing the same agenda as those who persecuted Christ in his name!

Which isn't the point.
I know a lot of Christians who are troubled by this question. Were native Americans exempt from the promise of a messiah because they lived on another continent? I only know one Christian sect that answers that question, and people on this forum don't tend to like Mormons.

There's actually a plausible theory in existance that says that Native Americans actually descended somehow from the original 12 tribes of Israel (or David? or something.. I don't remember exactly). That's a pretty cool philosophy to me..

As Whittier said,
Nature has testified of the existence of God to the Native Americans. In their ignorance they tried to express this vague knowledge with their religions.
The attributes of the great sky spirit, the tribes have different names for him, is very similar to those of God.
The Aztecs has a fellow (Queztalcoatl) in their religion, who was born a man, was supposedly killed and risen up again, went away but promised to return.
THe anceint Egyptians had a similar story.
The names are different, and the knowledge of the true faith lacking, but you can tell in a lot of these cases, the same being is at work.

Many N. American tribes have great flood stories, all have creation stories and "life after death" theories, at least one god, and many other similarities. You are right, Whittier, it is the same being. I believe that every person, living or dead, will go before God at the end of time and have a chance to confess their sins and ask for forgiveness. This gives the people who have never even heard of the Christian God a chance for atonement. It may sound like heaven is really easy to get into.. but not really. God can see into people's hearts and minds to see if they really mean it. You'll be surprised how many people will stand before God and deny him. (which reminds me, I sincerely believe that Peter, a disciple who denied Jesus 3 times, will go to Heaven, because Jesus forgave him).

Bringing myself back to the original quote, that being, the line about Mormons, I just wanted to say that many people think I'm Mormon for some psychotic reason.. My church recently changed its name, but it used to be known as The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (it's long. that's why we changed it. that, and the fact that ppl think we're Mormons).
Our church broke off from the Mormons for some reason. I don't recall why exactly, but they broke off from Joseph Smith's original following which departed for Utah from Nauvoo, MO. *sigh* there's a lot of explaining here.. The Mormon church was The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (hence the confusion), and it was founded by Joseph Smith. Wow, ok this is way too complicated, look it up. Anyway, I'm not Mormon.
Most religions (Other Christian followings [catholics, baptists, etc], and all other main religions) think my every member of my church is going to Hell. I think this is just insane! People have actually come up to me, asked me what church i went to, and then said that they couldn't be near me because i'm apparently going to Hell. There was a wedding in our congregation a while back, and some people from both sides wouldn't come because they didn't even want to go into our church! AAAH!! That just tears me up inside! If they even MET some of the wonderful people at my church, went to camps, felt my experiences!! They don't even know what they're talking about! I don't think I'm going to Hell. I know I'm not. I was baptized. I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart, I believe He died so that my sins are forgiven, He rose again on the third day. HE Literally went to HELL. For ME! That's something! I try my best to live a good life, but I'm weak.
I have truly felt God's presence, though. It's amazing. I couldn't stop crying, there was just so much love and comfort surrounding me, and I was overwhelmed by pure emotion. That was GOD. He was THERE in the room with me. I KNOW this. I feel this. I believe this. If I was going to Hell anyway, why would God bother putting these people in my life, why would he tell me to go to church camp?

*sigh* why do i always get so thoughtful this late at night.. or early in the morning, as the case is?

just read Revelation. (the last book in the bible)

books..
we have three books that we follow in our church (which is why we're 'going to hell'): The Bible, The Doctrine & Covenants, and The Book of Mormon (the last being the main reason we will 'burn in hell for eternity')

Ok, so to be a Christian & be accepted into Heaven, you must pass this list of qualifications:
A. Accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God
B. Believe that He died and rose again, thus purging us of all sin
C. Be completely pure and sinless

the last may seem crazy if you skip the first two, but remember: JESUS' BLOOD COVERS US, AND WHEN GOD LOOKS UPON US, HE SEES JESUS. Jesus never sinned.

Ok.. now that all athiests hate me, I must prepare myself to be mocked by them.
Do your worst.

Reich, are you a Jehovah's Witness? That sounds pretty close to what I know of their beliefs.

Since this is my first post, I'm probably diving into a flame war, especially since someone mentioned that people on this forum don't seem especially fond of Mormons.

We believe that people who died before Christ's first coming remained asleep, and that with his resurrection, the "First Resurrection", or the first stage of them (for the most righteous), began. Many of the prophets and righteous people of old rose and were resurrected then.

Since then, the dead go to one of two metaphoric places -- paradise or prison. Paradise isn't necessarily a wonderfully beautiful place and prison a pit of fire. "Prison" is just the spiritual anguish of those who have not accepted Christ, and cannot progress. They must learn of him and be baptized (we do ordinances for the dead, hence our interest in geneology) in order to move to paradise. Those in paradise teach those in prison. All stay in one or the other until his second coming, when everyone will be judged and resurrections will begin again.

So anyone who didn't have an opportunity to learn about Christ and accept him in this life gets a chance in the next.

And on the native americans, south and north -- we believe that when Christ (after his resurrection) said he had other sheep, that's who he meant. The Book of Mormon is their story, about a family who was led out of Jerusalem way back in the old testament time and sailed to the American continent (considering references to a narrow strip of land, church historians say somewhere around Panama). There, their people had other prophets of God, just like in the middle east, and they prophesied of Christ, his birth and death. Christ appeared and ministered unto them.

Assumably, that's where the legend of Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent, came from.

...I think I covered everything I wanted to. It's a little late.



YAYAYA!! :D That's what I was saying in my spiel! Ok, yeah, People think I'm Mormon because my church follows bit of the Book of Mormon, but I'm not. OK! yeah. :)

I'm surprised no one has said a lot about Jews yet.. (that I've seen)

p.s. Jewish people can't eat pork! haha! They think they'll go to hell if they do! So i thought up a funny quote-y thing! I will continue to eat bacon, even though doing so will cause me to forever fry in the fiery grease from whence it came!
p.p.s. because Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, I think they're going to Hell. Someone will say "But Jesus was Jewish". Yeah, and he believed he was the son of God, so he didn't go to Hell (duh).

p.p.s. because Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, I think they're going to Hell. Someone will say "But Jesus was Jewish". Yeah, and he believed he was the son of God, so he didn't go to Hell (duh).

Surely Christianity is just an association of Jewish sects? They are basically Jews who have added to the holy texts, like the Mormons are Christians who added to the holy texts.

Surely Christianity is just an association of Jewish sects? They are basically Jews who have added to the holy texts, like the Mormons are Christians who added to the holy texts.

In a way, I suppose. You seem like you've done a lot more studying than I have on this, though.. :p I'm just trying to get my opinion out there.
What I was saying is that because Jews don't believe that Jesus is God's son, they cannot be accepted into heaven (by my reasoning).

just so we get this clear. the catholic church believes that everyone before Christ that died went into basically a wait until Christ died and the gates of heaven were opened. that is becuase of course Jesus' mission by God was to save and purify us, so therefore those before Him had to wait until that had happened so that they would be able to enter the KOG(kingdom of God). and it also teches that it is possible for people not associated with the Church if they have lived a good life. this is of course because our God is merciful. its also interesting because there are actually cave drawings and legends and myths of a man very similir to Jesus who visited native americans in south and central america, so it is possible that He has revealed Himself in many different ways to those not associated with the Church.

YAYAYA!! :D That's what I was saying in my spiel! Ok, yeah, People think I'm Mormon because my church follows bit of the Book of Mormon, but I'm not. OK! yeah. :)

I'm surprised no one has said a lot about Jews yet.. (that I've seen)

p.s. Jewish people can't eat pork! haha! They think they'll go to hell if they do! So i thought up a funny quote-y thing! I will continue to eat bacon, even though doing so will cause me to forever fry in the fiery grease from whence it came!
p.p.s. because Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, I think they're going to Hell. Someone will say "But Jesus was Jewish". Yeah, and he believed he was the son of God, so he didn't go to Hell (duh).
Just the ones who hear the word of God and reject it outright.
There are a lot of jews who haven't heard the word or understand christianity. Depending on their characters they will get into heaven. But the Bible states that just before the end of the world all the jews will recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Course that's how we know the world isn't going to end in now or in 2012. The jews haven't converted it. When it happens, the temple of Jerusalem will be rebuilt.

Surely Christianity is just an association of Jewish sects? They are basically Jews who have added to the holy texts, like the Mormons are Christians who added to the holy texts.
That's a basic way of putting and in a way its correct.

just so we get this clear. the catholic church believes that everyone before Christ that died went into basically a wait until Christ died and the gates of heaven were opened. that is becuase of course Jesus' mission by God was to save and purify us, so therefore those before Him had to wait until that had happened so that they would be able to enter the KOG(kingdom of God). and it also teches that it is possible for people not associated with the Church if they have lived a good life. this is of course because our God is merciful. its also interesting because there are actually cave drawings and legends and myths of a man very similir to Jesus who visited native americans in south and central america, so it is possible that He has revealed Himself in many different ways to those not associated with the Church.

Basically, yes.
I've heard about the cave drawings & stuff. That's really cool. Have you any idea of a site that would have an article or something about it?

i dont know of any wbsites but im about to look, because it is interesting. i actually remember reading it from a magazine, american heritage or some americas magazine once. great stuff.

i dont know of any wbsites but im about to look, because it is interesting. i actually remember reading it from a magazine, american heritage or some americas magazine once. great stuff.

cool :cool: well, if you find the site, could you post it on here?

http://nowscape.com/mormon/quetzal.htm this is a site by mormoms that quote the aztec god, quetzcoatl or whatever as jesus. i personally dont hink Jesus revealed himself like this but it is possible because the legend goes that one day quetzcoatl will reutrn...the aztecs mistook that for the spaniards.

hahi found it! http://www.ancientamerican.com/article26p1.htm that even the magazine i read it from. well, you can look atthis, its quite interesting, mayeb not true...but possibly....

Just the ones who hear the word of God and reject it outright.
There are a lot of jews who haven't heard the word or understand christianity. Depending on their characters they will get into heaven. But the Bible states that just before the end of the world all the jews will recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Course that's how we know the world isn't going to end in now or in 2012. The jews haven't converted it. When it happens, the temple of Jerusalem will be rebuilt.

hey, this guy did an article that was in the newspaper & on tv & stuff, and he thought he proved that everyone would get into heaven. his ideas were based upon writings & scriptural stuff. it was really interesting even though, as i was reading, i was like, "yeah right"..

ok, i seriously need to go to sleep now..

http://nowscape.com/mormon/quetzal.htm this is a site by mormoms that quote the aztec god, quetzcoatl or whatever as jesus. i personally dont hink Jesus revealed himself like this but it is possible because the legend goes that one day quetzcoatl will reutrn...the aztecs mistook that for the spaniards.


like the El Dorado movie! ok, i get it :)
wow, i'm slow..
well, i don't know, because the 'serpent' bit throws it off. unless the aztecs really changed it around, jesus would never appear with serpent anything. in the bible, serpents are always satan.

"Also, there is no such thing as Purgatory. It is never mentioned in the Bibles. It was dreamed up by the Catholics as a way to answer questions of this sort and a way to make more money as the sale of Plenary Indulgences could get souls out of Purgatory and money could be given to Priests to Pray for the souls that they might get them out.

Purgatory is a myth. It has nothing to do with the true Gospel of Jesus Christ."


Whoops.

Learned something new!

I'll add that to my list of complaints against Catholicism. Thank you for enlightening me.

IIRC, the doctorine of purgatory was formulated because in the Bible, Christ talks about praying for those who are dead. Obviously it would be illogical to pray for those in heaven, similarly it would be pointless to pray for those in Hell (there is no getting out, and why would you pray for a damned soul?). This leaves just one alternative, purgatory.

However, I could be wrong. It has been a while since the reasons behind purgatory have been explained to me.

::EDIT::

Taken from the entry for Purgatory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm) from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

III. PROOFS

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapt. xxi, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.,

Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment." "Surely," Wilpert adds, "such intercession would have no place were there question not of the particular, but of the final judgment.
Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainity of salvation to the last day; and consequently they prayed that thoese who had gone before might in the final judgment escape even the everlasting torments of hell. The earliest Christian traditions are clear as to the particular judgment, and clearer still concerning a sharp distinction between purgatory and hell. The passages alledged as referring to relief from hell cannot offset the evidence given below (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. II, cap. v). Concerning the famous case of Trajan, which vexed the Doctors of the Middle Ages, see Bellarmine, loc. cit., cap. Viii.

For more on what the true teaching of Purgatory is, go here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

An excerpt from the latter:

"All Christians agree that we won’t be sinning in heaven. Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is a purification.
.....................
Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines."

to answer the original proposed question

imagine history as a timeline with christs death in the middle

the people that lived before christs death would beleave that a messiah would come to wash away their sins and give them eternal life, so theyd put their faith and trust in a man that we now know as Jesus Christ

now all the people that lived after christs death put their faith in christ knowing who it is to put their faith in

peace

John 3:16

God didn't write the bible you hick, men did. You pass along these twisted fairy tales of the old testament like they're suposed to mean something. The truth is and you know it, that if Christ was around today he'd look at your intolerance and sadly shake his head. Nothing in his teachings preach anything but love and acceptance for our fellow man. Leave his name out of your hangups.



He preaches about love and acceptance. Where in all of his teachings does it say "Killing an Unborn Child shows your love for it?" Let alone acceptance? He taught tolerance but He tought it in the way of "Love the sinner, not the sin" He does not teach us to "Hurt, kill and destroy all sinners" But he teaches us to "Love and change their sinning ways"

He preaches about love and acceptance. Where in all of his teachings does it say "Killing an Unborn Child shows your love for it?"

He didn't, but are making the assumption that all non-Christians are for abortion.

You are also not providing any evidence that it is a child, rather then a feotus etc.

"Love and change their sinning ways"
Hmm, direct quote. Who said it?

like the El Dorado movie! ok, i get it :)
wow, i'm slow..
well, i don't know, because the 'serpent' bit throws it off. unless the aztecs really changed it around, jesus would never appear with serpent anything. in the bible, serpents are always satan.

Quetzalcoatl wasn't really an Aztec god. Their main god was Huitzilopochtli, god of war. Quetzalcoatl was regarded as a god by the Toltecs and Mayans long before the Aztec empire existed. Before him, Tonatiuh, the sun, was the main god. Quetzalcoatl didn't exactly replaced monotheism, he was rather accepted into a pantheon of gods.

For the American people the serpents had no negative connotation. They were often carriers of messages and premonitions in dreams and it was a good sign when you saw a snake. So being a snake was fine with them.

We unfortunately don't know more about thise Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan character because most of the written materials were burned by the Spaniards.

After speaking to people from the point of many denominations Catholic/Anglican/ Lutharian/ Methodist (yes i ask lots of questions like this myself).
When Christ was crucified he took away sin for all of time past, present and future.

The old testament is for the Jews. Christians are christians because they don't believe the Old Testament. We follow the new Testament.

Hope I was of some help.

Originally Posted by THE LOST PLANET
God didn't write the bible you hick, men did. You pass along these twisted fairy tales of the old testament like they're suposed to mean something. The truth is and you know it, that if Christ was around today he'd look at your intolerance and sadly shake his head. Nothing in his teachings preach anything but love and acceptance for our fellow man. Leave his name out of your hangups.

Romans 2
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The Lost Planet specifically mentioned Christ--you quoted the apostle Paul, here and below, and there's a big difference in the teachings of the two, no matter what the church tries to do to link the two together.

And out of curiosity, what religion are you, Whittier? I see elements of a number of Christian groups, including as someone above mentioned, Jehovah's Witnesses, although as a former member I know that you aren't one of them. It's an interesting mixture, and I'm curious as to your background.

The bible teaches that when you die, you stay in grave sleeping until the second coming.
Jesus said that even David and Solomon were still in their graves waiting for the great day of ressurection that will occur at the second advent of christ.


Okay, so what do you make of Christ's promise to the man on the cross that "TODAY you'll be with me in paradise"?

...from an ignorant agnostic. It may sound like I'm trying to bash religion here, but I'm not; I'm just curious.
Jesus died for our sins, correct? Because of Eve, all humans are born with original sin. God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway. Am I still on the right track? So God sent Jesus Christ, his son, to Earth, so that he could die, and his blood would, if we were to accept him as our saviour, "wash our souls clean," or something like that. But if that is the case, then what of all the heroes of the Old Testament? Are Abraham, Moses, and the like all burning in hell, through no fault of their own? Most people (Christians) that I know follow a loose translation of the Bible anyway, and mostly ignore the Old Testament, so they haven't thought much of it, but I figured someone here would know more on the subject.

1) "even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway...."
With only one exception, no one has led a perfect life.
2) "Are Abraham, Moses, and the like all burning in hell, through no fault of their own?"
There are numerous possibilities here, and since the Bible doesn't explicitly state how they were saved (except that it was through grace), there's no definite answer I could give you. For example, it may be that they "pre-accepted" Jesus based on God's promises.
3) "Most people (Christians) that I know follow a loose translation of the Bible anyway"
What would you consider a "loose translation"? It's hard to respond to something that's so general.
4) "mostly ignore the Old Testament"
That would seem self-defeating, since Jesus and none of the NT writers ignored it.

Many belief systems had elements of human sacrifice.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the original topic, but since it was brought up.... Although there are similarities, there are a few significant differences as well:

1) Jesus' death was voluntary (according to Scripture), unlike most other human sacrifices;
2) It was a one-time deal, rather than needing to be repeated;
3) Those that actively participated in His death are not seen as the beneficiaries of His sacrifice.

The Lost Planet specifically mentioned Christ--you quoted the apostle Paul, here and below, and there's a big difference in the teachings of the two, no matter what the church tries to do to link the two together.

And out of curiosity, what religion are you, Whittier? I see elements of a number of Christian groups, including as someone above mentioned, Jehovah's Witnesses, although as a former member I know that you aren't one of them. It's an interesting mixture, and I'm curious as to your background.
Religion: Christian
Denomination: Seventh Day Adventist

Religion: Christian
Denomination: Seventh Day Adventist
Thanks. I'll have to read up.

Okay, so what do you make of Christ's promise to the man on the cross that "TODAY you'll be with me in paradise"?
Death is like sleep. Jesus called it sleep.
When they are ressurected, it will seem to them that they had been sleeping for only a moment. Though in reality a thousand years have gone by.

Thanks. I'll have to read up.
I'm not a vegetarian but I do avoid pork. :cool:

Just 'cause it's been bothering me that I couldn't sign in and reply, I wanted to explain the thing about serpents and Christ.

Quetzalcoatl means "feathered serpent" -- serpent, in this case, was not referring to Satan or duplicity or anything else. The term serpent is a symbol for the baseness of its movement -- living in the dirt and the dust of the Earth. Calling Him the Feathered Serpent was referring to his living on the earth, even though he had the ability to fly through the heavens.

...from an ignorant agnostic. It may sound like I'm trying to bash religion here, but I'm not; I'm just curious.
Jesus died for our sins, correct? Because of Eve, all humans are born with original sin. God won't tolerate sin in his presence, so we all needed some help to get to heaven, because even someone who led a perfect live would be fucked anyway. Am I still on the right track? So God sent Jesus Christ, his son, to Earth, so that he could die, and his blood would, if we were to accept him as our saviour, "wash our souls clean," or something like that. But if that is the case, then what of all the heroes of the Old Testament? Are Abraham, Moses, and the like all burning in hell, through no fault of their own? Most people (Christians) that I know follow a loose translation of the Bible anyway, and mostly ignore the Old Testament, so they haven't thought much of it, but I figured someone here would know more on the subject.

Ok, yes, because of Adam and Eve's sin, we are now all cursed to have sin in our lives. If, however, we were perfect, then no, we wouldn't need Jesus. But, Romans 3:32, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." That means that no one is perfect, so it's a moot point.
Now, it's not that God won't tolerate imperfection, it's that he can't...or rather, we can't tolerate his perfection. In the old testament, once a year they would send a priest into the part of the temple called the Holy of Holies. It was where God resided. The priest prepared for months, cleansing himself, making sure he was clean and sinless as possible. But, they had to tie a rope around his foot, because if he wasn't clean enough, the glory of God might kill him. He simply couldn't handle how perfect God is.
Now, about Jesus' dying. Hebrews 9:22, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Now, in the old testament, they would sacrifice lambs. Lambs represent innocence. This would cover up, but not release their sin. When they died, some did go to heaven because they were rightous and sought God, and the sacrifice of the lamb was enough. Very few people were like this. The rest went to a place called "Sheol." The details of Sheol are unknown to me, but it's where Catholics get the idea of purgatory.
Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the perfect lamb. He lived a perfect life, so he was the perfect sacrifice. Now, when they say Jesus died, they're also talking about a spiritual death, as in, he descended into hell and suffered there for us. He died in place of all of us, everyone before he died, back to Adam and Eve, and everyone after. To get his forgiveness, all you must do is ask, but by that I mean you have to mean it, not just "Forgive me so I can go out and sin some more." When you do ask for forgiveness, and mean it, then Jesus resides in your heart. If you've heard of the Trinity, God, Son, and Holy Spirit: They're all part of God. The Spirit resides within you, acting as your conscience, among other things.
The reason people tend to ignore the old testament is because Jesus fulfilled the law, meaning that you don't have to follow old testament law. Jesus said that the law isn't abolished completely, but it's not entirely necessary, and that Christ is what you need to get into heaven, so don't worry about keeping the old testament law.

Ok, yes, because of Adam and Eve's sin, we are now all cursed to have sin in our lives. If, however, we were perfect, then no, we wouldn't need Jesus. But, Romans 3:32, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." That means that no one is perfect, so it's a moot point.
Now, it's not that God won't tolerate imperfection, it's that he can't...or rather, we can't tolerate his perfection. In the old testament, once a year they would send a priest into the part of the temple called the Holy of Holies. It was where God resided. The priest prepared for months, cleansing himself, making sure he was clean and sinless as possible. But, they had to tie a rope around his foot, because if he wasn't clean enough, the glory of God might kill him. He simply couldn't handle how perfect God is.
Now, about Jesus' dying. Hebrews 9:22, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Now, in the old testament, they would sacrifice lambs. Lambs represent innocence. This would cover up, but not release their sin. When they died, some did go to heaven because they were rightous and sought God, and the sacrifice of the lamb was enough. Very few people were like this. The rest went to a place called "Sheol." The details of Sheol are unknown to me, but it's where Catholics get the idea of purgatory.
Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the perfect lamb. He lived a perfect life, so he was the perfect sacrifice. Now, when they say Jesus died, they're also talking about a spiritual death, as in, he descended into hell and suffered there for us. He died in place of all of us, everyone before he died, back to Adam and Eve, and everyone after. To get his forgiveness, all you must do is ask, but by that I mean you have to mean it, not just "Forgive me so I can go out and sin some more." When you do ask for forgiveness, and mean it, then Jesus resides in your heart. If you've heard of the Trinity, God, Son, and Holy Spirit: They're all part of God. The Spirit resides within you, acting as your conscience, among other things.
The reason people tend to ignore the old testament is because Jesus fulfilled the law, meaning that you don't have to follow old testament law. Jesus said that the law isn't abolished completely, but it's not entirely necessary, and that Christ is what you need to get into heaven, so don't worry about keeping the old testament law.
And I believe that those other people in the world, like Native Americans living in the 2nd Century A.D., would be spared because they have never heard of God and Jesus. Of course, this is my BELIEF, so don't take it as fact and pound me with it.

Reich, are you a Jehovah's Witness? That sounds pretty close to what I know of their beliefs.

Since this is my first post, I'm probably diving into a flame war, especially since someone mentioned that people on this forum don't seem especially fond of Mormons.

We believe that people who died before Christ's first coming remained asleep, and that with his resurrection, the "First Resurrection", or the first stage of them (for the most righteous), began. Many of the prophets and righteous people of old rose and were resurrected then.

Since then, the dead go to one of two metaphoric places -- paradise or prison. Paradise isn't necessarily a wonderfully beautiful place and prison a pit of fire. "Prison" is just the spiritual anguish of those who have not accepted Christ, and cannot progress. They must learn of him and be baptized (we do ordinances for the dead, hence our interest in geneology) in order to move to paradise. Those in paradise teach those in prison. All stay in one or the other until his second coming, when everyone will be judged and resurrections will begin again.

So anyone who didn't have an opportunity to learn about Christ and accept him in this life gets a chance in the next.

And on the native americans, south and north -- we believe that when Christ (after his resurrection) said he had other sheep, that's who he meant. The Book of Mormon is their story, about a family who was led out of Jerusalem way back in the old testament time and sailed to the American continent (considering references to a narrow strip of land, church historians say somewhere around Panama). There, their people had other prophets of God, just like in the middle east, and they prophesied of Christ, his birth and death. Christ appeared and ministered unto them.

Assumably, that's where the legend of Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent, came from.

...I think I covered everything I wanted to. It's a little late.


Hmm... Luke 16:26 "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."
So I have no idea how the mormons came up with the idea that people in heaven go and teach people in hell.

And I believe that those other people in the world, like Native Americans living in the 2nd Century A.D., would be spared because they have never heard of God and Jesus. Of course, this is my BELIEF, so don't take it as fact and pound me with it.

Actually, that's a verse in the Bible, that says people won't be judged for something they don't know about. What happens to them when they die, haven't a clue, but i don't think they go to hell...

But, I've heard stories about people who seek God without even knowing what they're doing. I heard about a Muslim woman who was having issues of some sort (can't remember). She'd only heard the name of Jesus in passing (cuz Muslims believe he was a prophet), and for some reason, she just started praying to him, and sought him out.

Hmm... Luke 16:26 "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."
So I have no idea how the mormons came up with the idea that people in heaven go and teach people in hell.

Well, the first confusion here is the definition of the status "in hell". In my previous post, I talked about Paradise and Prison -- not the same thing to what other sects call Hell at all. Someone in prison is just that -- someone barred from progressing. Stopped. Held. Damned, by the original meaning of the word. (To damn in the bible means pretty much what it sounds like. To dam.) The in-between place called Paradise/prison is not the final resting place of souls. It's an opportunity for people who couldn't hear Christ's word to hear it.

The Hell referred to in Luke 16 is the hell of guilt. The man wasn't in a seperate physical place, he was caught up in the torment of his own soul, inflicted by his perfect memory of all his sins. Abraham and Lazarus could not enter into his torment and soothe him any more than he could leave it behind. That's the "gulf".

Well, the first confusion here is the definition of the status "in hell". In my previous post, I talked about Paradise and Prison -- not the same thing to what other sects call Hell at all. Someone in prison is just that -- someone barred from progressing. Stopped. Held. Damned, by the original meaning of the word. (To damn in the bible means pretty much what it sounds like. To dam.) The in-between place called Paradise/prison is not the final resting place of souls. It's an opportunity for people who couldn't hear Christ's word to hear it.

The Hell referred to in Luke 16 is the hell of guilt. The man wasn't in a seperate physical place, he was caught up in the torment of his own soul, inflicted by his perfect memory of all his sins. Abraham and Lazarus could not enter into his torment and soothe him any more than he could leave it behind. That's the "gulf".

Matthew 5:22 "...in danger of the fire of hell."
Matthew 18:9 "...into the fire of hell."
2 Peter 2: is where your idea came from, it seems like..."gloomy dungeons" and such...
But the Bible describes hell many times as being a place of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" and fire and physical torment, as well as simply not being with God.
Read the passage around that verse:

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell*, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
The man has died. He is in a "place of torment," "in agony in this fire." Clearly, this is not simply mental sorrow.

Also, the Greek there for hell is "Hades." That would be the same Hades as this verse, Revelation 1:18: I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
There's also this verse, Revelation 20:13:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
That is the same Hades. Yes, you are to be judged afterwards, but it is always the same hell, the same place which is described over and over as a place of torment. In the next verse, "death and Hades" are cast into the Lake of Fire, along with those judged to go with them. So, Hades is not the final place, but it is still a place of torment, and not merely emotional pain.
Now, as to teaching them, I'm not entirely sure. Jesus is "the way the truth and the light." And when people are judged, if their name is not in the Book of Life, they are cast into the Lake of Fire, and to get your name in the Book you must accept Christ. If that's possible in hell, i'm not sure, i'll have to look some more.

Actually, that's a verse in the Bible, that says people won't be judged for something they don't know about. What happens to them when they die, haven't a clue, but i don't think they go to hell...

But, I've heard stories about people who seek God without even knowing what they're doing. I heard about a Muslim woman who was having issues of some sort (can't remember). She'd only heard the name of Jesus in passing (cuz Muslims believe he was a prophet), and for some reason, she just started praying to him, and sought him out.

Every person in the world has a tendancy to look for some kind of god or gods. Even athiests keep saying: "Oh God!" "Thank God!" "No, God!" etc.

Every person in the world has a tendancy to look for some kind of god or gods. Even athiests keep saying: "Oh God!" "Thank God!" "No, God!" etc.

My point is that when you're facing God and he asks you why you never believed in him, very few people can honestly say they never heard about him.

Every person in the world has a tendancy to look for some kind of god or gods. Even athiests keep saying: "Oh God!" "Thank God!" "No, God!" etc.

That is a saying, not looking for a god. People don't really think about it when they say it, as it is a simple idiom. The connotation has nothing to do with god anymore