NationStates Jolt Archive

What do all y'all think of this. I do not approve of the descicsion (sp?) myself. For one thing, we had intercepted radio transmissions of Japanese generals seriously considering surrender months before the bombings. The emporer of Japan even said he wanted to surrender, which is big news because in Japan, the emporer is a GOD. I also disagree with the notion that bombing two cities and invasion were the only two choices available to us. We could have dropped one right outside Tokyo (not close enough to kill many people, but close enough for them to see the mushroom cloud) and they'd get the idea.

Japan was packed full of people, dropping it anywhere would have killed a lot.

What source did you get this, "Japan was already going to surrender" idea from?

I doubt anyone could proclaim there was any sanity in the decision to nuke Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and personally I think that the US government was both eager to have the whole war in the Pacific behind them, and equally eager to try out their latest toy. Maybe just checking how effective it would be on a large human population in the city, or to show off their new found might.

We could have dropped one right outside Tokyo (not close enough to kill many people, but close enough for them to see the mushroom cloud) and they'd get the idea.

The bomb on Hiroshima was meant to hit there. Close to Tokyo and in an area of heavy industrial activity. The Nagasaki bomb was only dropped there because the intended target of the Mitsubishi Heavy Industry dockyards was shrouded in cloud and mist. One of the by products of the Nagasaki bomb was the anilhilation of most of Japan's Christians.

I'm still waiting to hear how the author go this idea that Japan was going to surrender anyway.

I've always had the belief that we dropped the bomb so that we didn't have to invade and it actually meant saving more lives than an invasion would have.

The bomb on Hiroshima was meant to hit there. Close to Tokyo and in an area of heavy industrial activity. The Nagasaki bomb was only dropped there because the intended target of the Mitsubishi Heavy Industry dockyards was shrouded in cloud and mist. One of the by products of the Nagasaki bomb was the anilhilation of most of Japan's Christians.
go go gadget irony

What do all y'all think of this. I do not approve of the descicsion (sp?) myself. For one thing, we had intercepted radio transmissions of Japanese generals seriously considering surrender months before the bombings. The emporer of Japan even said he wanted to surrender, which is big news because in Japan, the emporer is a GOD. I also disagree with the notion that bombing two cities and invasion were the only two choices available to us. We could have dropped one right outside Tokyo (not close enough to kill many people, but close enough for them to see the mushroom cloud) and they'd get the idea.


I do not know where you have gotten your information from but you are dead wrong. JAPAN was not going to surrender. The Generals were running the show. The Emperor was nothing but a puppet. It was his Generals that convinced him to go to war in the first place. The atomic bomb needed to be dropped. They didn't give up after the first one now did they? So what the hell makes you think they would have surrendered if it was never dropped in the first place? It took two to finally convince the Japanese to swallow their proud and diminish their honor and do the right thing and lay down their arms.

All you morons that think it was to show off American might need to read your history and not make assumptions using the events of recent years as your guiding light. FAT MAN and LITTLE BOY were used to end the war quickly. Millions of men, women and children would have died if they were not used. You seem to forget that RUSSIA was kicking the crap out of the Japanese by then and wanted nothing less than the total defeat of the Japanese. It saved many countless lives on both sides.

go go gadget irony


i heard nagasaki residents actually thought the americans might have been sparing the city for that reason.

I do not know where you have gotten your information from but you are dead wrong. JAPAN was not going to surrender. The Generals were running the show. The Emperor was nothing but a puppet. It was his Generals that convinced him to go to war in the first place. The atomic bomb needed to be dropped. They didn't give up after the first one now did they? So what the hell makes you think they would have surrendered if it was never dropped in the first place? It took two to finally convince the Japanese to swallow their proud and diminish their honor and do the right thing and lay down their arms.

All you morons that think it was to show off American might need to read your history and not make assumptions using the events of recent years as your guiding light. FAT MAN and LITTLE BOY were used to end the war quickly. Millions of men, women and children would have died if they were not used. You seem to forget that RUSSIA was kicking the crap out of the Japanese by then and wanted nothing less than the total defeat of the Japanese. It saved many countless lives on both sides.

nope you're wrong, japan was planning on surrendering, the bombs didn't save millions. russia was only involved the the pacific theater in a minor way and had no interest in taking part in a land invasion of japan. the us mainly used the nukes to impress the russkies who they already understood were the new threat.

The bombs were dropped because in Japan at that time the emporer was just a figurehead and the military made almost all decisions especially where the war was concerned. I have read much about the Pacific campaign in WWII and I have never heard anything about any radio transmissions concerning surrender. The Japanese warriors of that time were not afraid of death that is why we had to show them something so horrible to effect their surrender. Of course no one knew exactly what was gonna happen when those bombs were dropped either. I think we made the right decision.

Okay, instead of you guys repeating that they were going to surrender.

Where did you get the information?

What Knight of the Round said is what I've read in numerous history books but you guys are saying something different. So...where did you find this out?

Or are you guys just making this up so you have another reason to throw eggs at the US?

The research of atomic capabilities and development of the bombs used cost the american taxpayers 2 billion dollars. Now, I'm not saying that this is a good excuse, but if the public found out that 2 billion of their dollars (a HUUUUUUGE amount of money at the time) was spent on something that showed no results, if we're going with the situation that the bombs weren't used, the american public would be unimaginably pissed off at the government for the waste of money and resources. This is one of the things that the gov't was contemplating. Not a good reason, but understandable.

Truman needed to get over his hatred of anime. Actually, the whole war was a mistake like all wars, but killing civilians isn't justified. If you think it was, then imagine you were a civilian about to be nuked.

Letila, when you are in a war there are some decisions you have to make.

For instance, 200k dead civilians or over a million dead.

Which would you choose?

It stopped the war. Looks like it worked.

Truman needed to get over his hatred of anime. Actually, the whole war was a mistake like all wars, but killing civilians isn't justified. If you think it was, then imagine you were a civilian about to be nuked.

goddamn anime, a threat to all that is good :D

Japan was packed full of people, dropping it anywhere would have killed a lot.

What source did you get this, "Japan was already going to surrender" idea from?
I did this for a school report a couple months ago so I don't recall my exact sources. *runs google search*
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/abomb/mpmenu.htm
http://www.dannen.com/decision/

I made a thread about this a while back in a different forum
http://www.cad-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13201&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
My name there is Jedi Master Moose.

http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

Best site I've ever seen to help me with my research on said project.

an interesting original source document, i'm not exactly sure it fully supports either position and i didn't read it all

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-75.html

Okay, a couple of problems.

These sites are just written by regular Joes who could write about anything they wanted. Also, if you read your favorite site, even he states that after the second bomb that it was extremely difficult for the Japanese government to surrender.

Hense, the use of the atomic bombs were justified.

nope you're wrong, japan was planning on surrendering, the bombs didn't save millions. russia was only involved the the pacific theater in a minor way and had no interest in taking part in a land invasion of japan. the us mainly used the nukes to impress the russkies who they already understood were the new threat.


That facts are that you are wrong. Russia wanted to tear them apart and would have if the USA didn't nuke them. Why don't you open up a few history books and maybe if you can read you will see just how much the Russians and Japanese hate each other. Maybe you would learn something instead of spouting off useless prattle.

According to a program on the history channel several days ago called something like "The Last Mission", Japan was indeed trying to surrender, but it was a conditional surrender, and one that would have let them keep many of the areas they had conquered, like Korea. Truman thought that this was unacceptable and refused to agree to anything less than a full surrender. Personally, I think the bombs needed to be dropped, but ehh, who knows?

There are no innocent people in war. That is just a sad fact. For ages women and children have been slaughtered. The Romans did it, the Greeks did it, the Egpytians did it. It is just the way it goes. Burn the villages to the ground and move on to the next one.

In WWII the Japanese were excellent at it. They even liked to rape the women. Look at what they did in China alone.

That facts are that you are wrong. Russia wanted to tear them apart and would have if the USA didn't nuke them. Why don't you open up a few history books and maybe if you can read you will see just how much the Russians and Japanese hate each other. Maybe you would learn something instead of spouting off useless prattle.


hey now, i'm the only one who posted a link to primary source material here, mr. no facts at all. :p

You can put a link up that UFOs live in your back yard it doesn't make it correct. You have to use links from reputable sources not Jimbob's I hate Bush or Kerry site.

Regardless, Japan and Russia had hated eachother for over 50 years when WW2 was going on. They even had a war just prior to WW1.

You can put a link up that UFOs live in your back yard it doesn't make it correct. You have to use links from reputable sources not Jimbob's I hate Bush or Kerry site.

Regardless, Japan and Russia had hated eachother for over 50 years when WW2 was going on. They even had a war just prior to WW1.


but my link is to transcripts of us interrogation of japanese military officers immediately after the war

Ok let me answer your questions and then give you more FACTS as to why the bombs were dropped. And if at any time you need me to cite my sources just ask because I have mounds of information at my disposal.

Ok you are very correct in saying that the US had intercepted transmissions fro Japan, and the US had broken the Japanese naval code. Very true. But this was done before June 4th of 1942, 6 moths after Pearl Harbor. Midway was one of the biggest flops on the Japanese side because the US knew exactly what they were doing and when they were going to attack. You make it sound like the intercepting of Japanese radio was something new.

Secondly Japan was not going to surrender any time soon. In every land battle in the Pacific the Japanese lost over 90% of their men dead. Hardly ever was any Japanese soldier ever captured because if it came down to it they would kill themselves. Also the closer the US got to Japan the more and more losses the Japanese took, military and civilian. The people of Japan were told that if the US was to capture Japanese land they would treat the civilians as slaves and brutally murder all the men. The civilians were told to take their own lives and they did that. To give you proof of the civilians killing them selves the closer the US got to Japan is in Saipan. Saipan, if you know your WWII history, was the first Japanese island the US invaded. In the initial invasion and battle of Saipan 30,000 Japanese military and Civilian were dead, not to US killing but mostly by the Japanese hand (just a side not in the battle of Saipan from June ’44 till the en of the war roughly 3,000 US troops were killed). Several weeks after the end of the battle another 27,000 civilians killed them selves to escape being under US command. The Japanese were determined to not be under anyone else’s command but their own.

You were right in saying the in Japan the emperor was a God. But there is a flaw in that statement. The emperor of was very weak and did nothing for Japan. He was suppose to have saw in everything that happened with Japan and no one was to have a higher authority than him. But in 1932 General Tojo took it upon him self to Invade Machuria in 12/8/1931 with out permission from Japan. Because he was the head of the military he believed that all military decisions were his. This took power away from the Emperor, and when the Emperor found out about Tojo he did nothing to stop him or gain his power back. Tojo again defied the Emperor in 1937 when he invaded main land China against the Emperor’s wishes.

So you disagree with the bombing of two cities and you wanted the US to drop a bomb somewhere so Japan could see it and the surrender. Ok first off, have you ever heard of the fire bombings of Tokyo or Dresden or anywhere else? I don’t think you have reading what you had to say. The fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than both atomic bombs combined. Did you ever know that? Roosevelt (don’t get me started on him) allowed the bombing of civilian targets to attempt to get Japan to surrender. Once the US had bombers in range of Tokyo the US dropped Fire Bombs just about every day. What roughly 150,000 (I don’t want to find the number right now) people were killed in the atomic bombs, but in the fire bombings nearly 300,000 people were killed. Secondly the US did not want to drop a bomb where it was going to be useless, see an Atomic bomb was a very rare thing, and it wasn’t just something to waste. And the US saw that Japan was not surrendering and would gladly sacrifice their people to not surrender. The US needed to give Japan a sucker punch to make them surrender and an Atomic bomb in a city would cause much more fear that an atomic bomb near a city. Also the US was not going to tell Japan that they had a weapon of mass destruction and say they were going to show the power to Japan because what happens is the Atomic Bomb doesn’t work? This was very new and the US was worried if they dropped it and Japan was waiting for it, there was a chance that it might not work. That would be very bad and the US was not going to tempt that. Thirdly after the bombing of Hiroshima the government in Japan told its citizens that the “boom” they heard was something the they were testing and everything was good. The government knew it was going to lose but still refused to surrender. The US could not afford a mainland invasion with the threat of loosing 1 million men and over 3 million men on the Japanese side. 150,000 people compared to 4 million, you tell me what you would like to hear in the papers, and you tell me how you would like to explain that to 1 million American families.

Knight of the Round thank you for being intelligent.

Ohh and about Russia where you said that they only joined at the end of the war and they didn’t want land in the Pacific. Well to tell you the truth the only reason the Russians were in Japan was to get land. They didn’t want to spare any more troops, they already lost to them before. So yeah they joined once they knew the US had something to win the war so they could have their foot in the door and grab some more land.

So before you start talking about WWII please make sure your facts are right. And if you have any questions I will try to check back, or E-Mail me at Klaus_delm@yahoo.com Have a nice day.

What do all y'all think of this. I do not approve of the descicsion (sp?) myself. For one thing, we had intercepted radio transmissions of Japanese generals seriously considering surrender months before the bombings. The emporer of Japan even said he wanted to surrender, which is big news because in Japan, the emporer is a GOD. I also disagree with the notion that bombing two cities and invasion were the only two choices available to us. We could have dropped one right outside Tokyo (not close enough to kill many people, but close enough for them to see the mushroom cloud) and they'd get the idea.

You are correct. The Japanese had been trying to surrender long before the bombs were dropped. Everyone knew they were done for. Virtually the only top man in the military who wanted to drop the bombs was George Marshall.

Ok let me answer your questions and then give you more FACTS as to why the bombs were dropped. And if at any time you need me to cite my sources just ask because I have mounds of information at my disposal.

Ok you are very correct in saying that the US had intercepted transmissions fro Japan, and the US had broken the Japanese naval code. Very true. But this was done before June 4th of 1942, 6 moths after Pearl Harbor. Midway was one of the biggest flops on the Japanese side because the US knew exactly what they were doing and when they were going to attack. You make it sound like the intercepting of Japanese radio was something new.

Secondly Japan was not going to surrender any time soon. In every land battle in the Pacific the Japanese lost over 90% of their men dead. Hardly ever was any Japanese soldier ever captured because if it came down to it they would kill themselves. Also the closer the US got to Japan the more and more losses the Japanese took, military and civilian. The people of Japan were told that if the US was to capture Japanese land they would treat the civilians as slaves and brutally murder all the men. The civilians were told to take their own lives and they did that. To give you proof of the civilians killing them selves the closer the US got to Japan is in Saipan. Saipan, if you know your WWII history, was the first Japanese island the US invaded. In the initial invasion and battle of Saipan 30,000 Japanese military and Civilian were dead, not to US killing but mostly by the Japanese hand (just a side not in the battle of Saipan from June ’44 till the en of the war roughly 3,000 US troops were killed). Several weeks after the end of the battle another 27,000 civilians killed them selves to escape being under US command. The Japanese were determined to not be under anyone else’s command but their own.

You were right in saying the in Japan the emperor was a God. But there is a flaw in that statement. The emperor of was very weak and did nothing for Japan. He was suppose to have saw in everything that happened with Japan and no one was to have a higher authority than him. But in 1932 General Tojo took it upon him self to Invade Machuria in 12/8/1931 with out permission from Japan. Because he was the head of the military he believed that all military decisions were his. This took power away from the Emperor, and when the Emperor found out about Tojo he did nothing to stop him or gain his power back. Tojo again defied the Emperor in 1937 when he invaded main land China against the Emperor’s wishes.

So you disagree with the bombing of two cities and you wanted the US to drop a bomb somewhere so Japan could see it and the surrender. Ok first off, have you ever heard of the fire bombings of Tokyo or Dresden or anywhere else? I don’t think you have reading what you had to say. The fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than both atomic bombs combined. Did you ever know that? Roosevelt (don’t get me started on him) allowed the bombing of civilian targets to attempt to get Japan to surrender. Once the US had bombers in range of Tokyo the US dropped Fire Bombs just about every day. What roughly 150,000 (I don’t want to find the number right now) people were killed in the atomic bombs, but in the fire bombings nearly 300,000 people were killed. Secondly the US did not want to drop a bomb where it was going to be useless, see an Atomic bomb was a very rare thing, and it wasn’t just something to waste. And the US saw that Japan was not surrendering and would gladly sacrifice their people to not surrender. The US needed to give Japan a sucker punch to make them surrender and an Atomic bomb in a city would cause much more fear that an atomic bomb near a city. Also the US was not going to tell Japan that they had a weapon of mass destruction and say they were going to show the power to Japan because what happens is the Atomic Bomb doesn’t work? This was very new and the US was worried if they dropped it and Japan was waiting for it, there was a chance that it might not work. That would be very bad and the US was not going to tempt that. Thirdly after the bombing of Hiroshima the government in Japan told its citizens that the “boom” they heard was something the they were testing and everything was good. The government knew it was going to lose but still refused to surrender. The US could not afford a mainland invasion with the threat of loosing 1 million men and over 3 million men on the Japanese side. 150,000 people compared to 4 million, you tell me what you would like to hear in the papers, and you tell me how you would like to explain that to 1 million American families.

Knight of the Round thank you for being intelligent.

Ohh and about Russia where you said that they only joined at the end of the war and they didn’t want land in the Pacific. Well to tell you the truth the only reason the Russians were in Japan was to get land. They didn’t want to spare any more troops, they already lost to them before. So yeah they joined once they knew the US had something to win the war so they could have their foot in the door and grab some more land.

So before you start talking about WWII please make sure your facts are right. And if you have any questions I will try to check back, or E-Mail me at Klaus_delm@yahoo.com Have a nice day.


Thank you very much for putting up this information. If more CHILDREN in these forums would read instead of going online for every little scrape of information they would actually learn. Articles online in most cases are written to persaude people to how they want them to think. I have read over 400 books on World War II and there is so much more in them than simple one sided articles on the internet. Read books from those that were there. From all sides of the conflict and then you will see the whole story. Not just a watered down version.

You are very right about the Japanese losing over 90% in the Pacific Theater in land battles. Look at Iwo Jima alone. Japan would not have given up. It would be the same today if Canada or the USA was invaded by a forgein power. Every man, woman and child would fight for their homes. Look at how the Germans fought at the end of WWII when they knew there was no way they could win. You fight the hardest for your native soil.


edited because I forgot the R ^_^ kawaii

blah blah self satisfied pretention blah blah

oh thank you so much for an introduction to american legion history. to bad you have no understanding that history is a diverse feild with many different perspectives on the past and not a collection of facts with the american rights interpretation stamp on top as offical gospel. you might be right in one point, knight may well be quite intelligent(at least in comparison to you).

You are correct. The Japanese had been trying to surrender long before the bombs were dropped. Everyone knew they were done for. Virtually the only top man in the military who wanted to drop the bombs was George Marshall.


General Hideki Tojo did not want to surrender and he was the top Japanese general. He wanted to fight to the very last man. Ever since he was made the PM of Japan he wanted to fight.

Thank you very much for putting up this information. If more CHILDREN in these forums would read instead of going online for every little scrape of information they would actually learn. Articles online in most cases are written to persaude people to how they want them to think. I have read over 400 books on World War II and there is so much more in them than simple one sided articles on the internet. Read books from those that were there. From all sides of the conflict and then you will see the whole story. Not just a watered down version.

You are very right about the Japanese losing over 90% in the Pacific Theater in land battles. Look at Iwo Jima alone. Japan would not have given up. It would be the same today if Canada or the USA was invaded by a forgein power. Every man, woman and child would fight for their homes. Look at how the Germans fought at the end of WWII when they knew there was no way they could win. You fight the hardest for you native soil.


hey, i'm suposed to be the gay nazi here, stop making out with miss link and get a room you two.

400 books on ww2 and you'd never heard the theory that japan was preparing to surrender before n and h. what books have you been reading, you may disagree with the theory but to have never heard of it implies your choice of books is rather limited.

"Truman thought that this was unacceptable and refused to agree to anything less than a full surrender."

It wasn't just Truman. NONE of the allied leaders felt a conditional surrender was acceptable, and refused anything less than unconditional surrender. The Japanese DID offer a very large list of conditions of surrender, but they were bulky and not worth it, because Japan was not going to stand off long, and all the allies knew it. They also knew what the toll, civillian casualties and military alike, were going to be, so the bombs dropped.

Little known fact: Truman ordered a third nuke dropped on Tokyo after the Nagasaki bomb hit, but we were out of bombs. While production of a third and fourth were winding down, Japan agreed to an unconditional surrender.

Me.

hey, i'm suposed to be the gay nazi here, stop making out with miss link and get a room you two.

400 books on ww2 and you'd never heard the theory that japan was preparing to surrender before n and h. what books have you been reading, you may disagree with the theory but to have never heard of it implies your choice of books is rather limited.


Hideki Tojo would never have let the Japanese surrender. AS for the theory of Japan preparing to surrender from what I have read was a ploy to just buy them more time. That is why I do not buy into it.

The Enemy at His Back by Elizabeth Churchill Brown; Journey to the Missouri by Toshikasu Kase; Fleet Admiral King by Admiral Ernest J. King; The Untold Story of Douglas MacArthur by Frazier Hunt; No Wonder We Are Losing by Robert Morris; I Was There by Admiral William D. Leahy; Leftism Revisited by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn; the August 19 issues of Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times Herald; the May 10, 1958 issue of National Review; How the Far East Was Lost by Professor Anthony Kubek; The Death of James Forrestal by Cornell Simpson; the June 15, 1946 Saturday Review of Literature; On Active Service in Peace and War by Secretary of War Stimson (don't remember his first name); The Campaigns of the Pacific War by Rear Admiral R.A. Ofstie; Utopia: The Perennial Heresy by Professor Thomas Molnar; the summer 1995 issue of Foreign Policy; the January/February 1995 issue of Foreign Affairs; and the July 3, 1945 Washington Post, are all excellent sources for those who want to know the truth about why the bombs were dropped and the truth about how the Japanese were trying to surrender long before the bombs were dropped.

:rolleyes: Sure. The Americans nuked them out of compassion. The Japs should make a national celebration of these 2 dates. Too thank the "compassionate" Americans for brightening up these 2 days.
They should build statues of the pilots who flew the bombs and worship them.

General Hideki Tojo did not want to surrender and he was the top Japanese general. He wanted to fight to the very last man. Ever since he was made the PM of Japan he wanted to fight.

True enough, but most of the Japanese wanted desperately to surrender.

It's the past, who cares.

"Truman thought that this was unacceptable and refused to agree to anything less than a full surrender."

It wasn't just Truman. NONE of the allied leaders felt a conditional surrender was acceptable, and refused anything less than unconditional surrender. The Japanese DID offer a very large list of conditions of surrender, but they were bulky and not worth it, because Japan was not going to stand off long, and all the allies knew it. They also knew what the toll, civillian casualties and military alike, were going to be, so the bombs dropped.

Little known fact: Truman ordered a third nuke dropped on Tokyo after the Nagasaki bomb hit, but we were out of bombs. While production of a third and fourth were winding down, Japan agreed to an unconditional surrender.

Me.


I have heard about that. I have also heard that there was a third bomb but that it went down with an aircraft carrier in the sea of Japan.

It's the past, who cares.
So is the holocaust. But for some reason people still make a big fuzz bout it.

True enough, but most of the Japanese wanted desperately to surrender.


That may have been the case. But I wouldn't have wanted a bullet in my head for disgreeing with the man behind the whole Japanese Military movement.

And on a side note. Good to see you Roach Busters :) *I'll be shipping you some free weapons soon lol*

"I have also heard that there was a third bomb but that it went down with an aircraft carrier in the sea of Japan."

That part I didn't hear. I just read in a few different accounts of the history that, one day after the bomb hit Nagasaki, he ordered a third to be dropped on Tokyo itself, and they regretfully informed him that we were out of nukes, so production on two more was commenced. They were almost completed a few days later when the signal came from Japan that they were willing to accept utter defeat.

I bet Truman was pissed. I think he was enjoying flexing the American might at the time.

Me.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the biggest and strongest terrorist strike in the history of the world! There is no excuse at all to kill millions of defenseless people.There is such a diference between atacking a military base or two big cities.

So is the holocaust. But for some reason people still make a big fuzz bout it.


mainly hippies i think, and liberal media elites(that's republican code for jews:p).

There is such a diference between atacking a military base or two big cities.
Not to Americans.

now not bein picky and all but erm save millions of lives by ending the war quickly... u mean millions of american lives right cos if your intention is to save lives then dropping nucleasr weapons surely not the way, and secondly how can anyone ever EVRER justify leveling 2 cities with nukes for the love of god!

It's the past, who cares.

The past tends to repeat itself. That alone should be reason enough to never ignore what happened in the past.

So is the holocaust. But for some reason people still make a big fuzz bout it.

That is very true. I know that the movie Schindlers list was made because alot of teenagers could not believe that the holocaust happened. That is from the director himself :)

Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the biggest and strongest terrorist strike in the history of the world! There is no excuse at all to kill millions of defenseless people.There is such a diference between atacking a military base or two big cities.

I agree, but millions of people were not killed by the bombs. Hundreds of thousands, yes, but not millions.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the biggest and strongest terrorist strike in the history of the world! There is no excuse at all to kill millions of defenseless people.There is such a diference between atacking a military base or two big cities.
okay in defense of the us lets not exaggerate. 100,000(low ball estimate) to maybe 350,000(longer term) dead total for both. not as bad as the worst conventional firebombings

I agree, but millions of people were not killed by the bombs. Hundreds of thousands, yes, but not millions.


Actually it is close to a million people if you figure in how many people died of cancer due to radiation.

You are correct. The Japanese had been trying to surrender long before the bombs were dropped. Everyone knew they were done for. Virtually the only top man in the military who wanted to drop the bombs was George Marshall.

Japan was far from surrendering in 1945, I have read numerous books on the PTO, one of the best I would recommend to those interested in the final months of the Pacific War would be Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire. The intercepted messages most people refer to are the messages sent to Japan's ambassador to the Soviet Union, which basically asked for him to request of Molotov, the Soviet ambassador, to try and become a third weight for a negotiated peace with the Allies. Obviously this idea was ludicrous, not only becuase the Soviet's had no intention of doing so, but becuase the Allies were not going to settle for a negotiated peace (Versailles had been the catalyst of this war). The Prime Minister (Who was not Hideki Tojo at the time) kept these messages very secret becuase it was well known neither the Navy or Army wanted surrender, they were dedicated to their Ketsu-Go operation, or their final battle plan for the Home Islands.

Magic intercepts gave the Americans this information, and just like the Soviets and the Japanese Soviet Ambassador himself, realized they were futile. Another problem the Allies had with only the civilian head of the government exploring peace was it did not gaurantee the Military heads of Japan would surrender as well, by all means they could simply declare the civies traitors, and this would destroy any hope of organized surrender and leave the Allies with having to wipe out every Japanese garrison in the Pacific and Asia. When the Americans actually did send their terms to Japan (via the Potsdam Decleration), the response in the Japanese Government was to let it die on the vine (or basically ignore it), and no Magic intercepts revealed any intention of the Japanese to accede to the Potsdam Decleration.

As for the invasion, Operation Downfall was split into two parts, the first Olympic was the invasion of Kyushu as a staging area for the invasion of the Kanto Plain, Coronet. But by August 1945 Ultra intelligence (Magic was diplomatic, Ultra was military intercepts) had shown the Japanese as part of their Ketsu-Go plan had placed a huge number of troops on Kyushu, and of the three major areas to be invaded by the Americans two were defended by regular and war-ready divisions, and the third was useless without the other two. Admiral Nimitz was preparing to withdraw his endorsement of Olympic in favor of continued blockade and bombardment or an immediate go at Coronet.

Most commanders had never liked Downfall anyway becuase of the horrendous casualties it entailed, but recognized the invasion had to be to secure peace. The planners used various calculations to come up with casualty estimates, most used what was known as the Saipan Ratio, which was 10 Japanese to 1 American casualty. General Marshall's figure which was the one Nimitz had seen calculated 90,000 casualties in the first 90 days, which dwarfs Overlord casualties. And this was assuming the Americans were invading with a 3:1 superiority in numbers, when in fact the Japanese had two more divisions then the Americans invading.

All the Soviet invasion did was finally destroy the Prime Minister's hope that the Soviets would intervene, the Kwantung Army was already a useless force. Reduced from it's wartime status as elite by it's units being needed elsewhere, it was almost a militia force. Becuase of the American mine campaign (Operation Starvation) and the submarine threat, these troops could not be sent to the Homeland. The Soviet invasion was more a threat to the Americans then the Japanese.

The two atomic bombs changed everything. Hiroshima had been on a no-bomb list since the firebombing campaign had begun, Nagasaki was only recently (it replaced Kyoto which after months of debate was decided would not be touched for it's cultural value) and had simply been overlooked by Lemay's bombers. Hiroshima was the original target and when it was bombed it threw the Japanese into a panic, the Navy and Army ministers, the most virulent no-peacers and pro-Final Battle supporters, even had to admit this new weapon was devestating.

But this alone did not convince them the need to surrender, but it propelled more Civilian leaders for peace, and even the Emperor began to entertain seroius ideas of peace (hitherto he had been firmly behind Ketsu-Go). But the Americans dropped another bomb only 3 days later. The target of this bomb was the Kokura Arsenal on Kyushu which contained a vast amount of the material which would be used to oppose Olympic, but heavy cloud cover prevented the dropping of the bomb, so the B-29 went to it's secondary target Nagasaki, heavy cloud cover here too prevented a dropping, but after circling the B-29 had no choice but to make an accurate guess on where to drop on Nagasaki becuase of fuel constraints.

This bombing convinced the Emperor the war was lost. The rapid dropping of two Atomic Bombs did away with Kawabe's idea that the Americans only had a small amount of bombs and they were probably out of them after Hiroshima (which was true, the third bomb would not be ready until September becuase Truman delayed it's delivery). As things came to a head around Tokyo, the peace question was finally put to rest by a private meeting. The Emperor brought together all his advisors in one room, he listened to their arguments for their side, which were all charged with emotion and patriotism. Then he made his announcement, with tears in his eyes, he announced he did not believe the Americans could be defeated without bringing destruction the Japan, and his people had suffered enough. This intervention by the Emperor might be what saved the Americans and Japanese millions of dead. There was a minor military coup at the palace later on, but it had no real support of either the Navy or Army so it failed. The Army minister commited suicide becuase he felt he had failed the Emperor. Several days later a transmission was sent to the Americans which basically said the Japanese were willing to accept all terms of the Potsdam Decleration, but attached to it was the Japanese want to keep the Emperor, instead of their demand which had forestalled all earlier peace talks along with their idea of keeping Korea and their military.

Actually it is close to a million people if you figure in how many people died of cancer due to radiation.


maybe, i'm not sure, but i'll give you that point :D

maybe, i'm not sure, but i'll give you that point :D


Thank you :)

What do all y'all think of this. I do not approve of the descicsion (sp?) myself. For one thing, we had intercepted radio transmissions of Japanese generals seriously considering surrender months before the bombings. The emporer of Japan even said he wanted to surrender, which is big news because in Japan, the emporer is a GOD. I also disagree with the notion that bombing two cities and invasion were the only two choices available to us. We could have dropped one right outside Tokyo (not close enough to kill many people, but close enough for them to see the mushroom cloud) and they'd get the idea.


You REALLY need to read about something before posting nonsense.

Ever hear of the Potsdam Conference?

The Potsdam Conference, July - August 1945

On 16 July 1945, the "Big Three" leaders met at Potsdam, Germany, near Berlin. In this, the last of the World War II heads of state conferences, President Truman, Soviet Premier Stalin and British Prime Ministers Churchill and Atlee discussed post-war arrangements in Europe, frequently without agreement. Future moves in the war against Japan were also covered. The meeting concluded early in the morning of 2 August.

One result of the conference was a 26 July joint proclamation by the U.S., Great Britain and China, the three main powers then fighting Japan. This "Potsdam Declaration" described Japan's present perilous condition, gave the terms for her surrender and stated the Allies' intentions concerning her postwar status. It ended with an ultimatum: Japan must immediately agree to unconditionally surrender, or face "prompt and utter destruction".

--------------------------------------------------

On 6 August 1945 the Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima but this did not seem to have as much effect (In the Japanese Cabinet as the Russian declaration of war on 8 August. On 9 August immediately after the news of the Nagasaki bomb, Japan's Supreme War Council had a prearranged meeting with the emperor. The cabinet was split, because if they accepted the Potsdam declaration there was no guarantee for the emperor's position. Eventually the cabinet asked for the emperor's advice (In 10 August and he told them that they must accept the Allied terms. The Japanese sent a message to the Americans with a proviso concerning the emperor's position Stimson and Admiral Leahy were willing to accept this, but Byrnes, the Secretary of State, drafted a reply which stated that the Japanese government would be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Pacific Forces. The cabinet could not agree on this until 14 August when these terms were accepted. A couple of army officers tried to stage a coup d 'etat but they found little support.
---------------------------------------
So it wasn't the US doing this or the US doing that. Japan refused an unconditional surrender, until after Nagasaki.

"how can anyone ever EVRER justify leveling 2 cities with nukes for the love of god!"

It was a different world, it was a different time, there were so many things in context of it that make it justifiable, though still deplorable.

Me.

The response to the Potsdam Decleration that was sent to the US Government was one in which Japan would keep the Emperor and it's military heirarchy, which was obviously unacceptable to the United States.

And as to why did the US bomb a city rather then drop it somewhere then say, hey, you're next. First, the US had a very limited number of bombs, and there was no gaurantee the Japanese would accept this as a real weapon, even when it was dropped on Hiroshima many didn't believe one bomb could have done it, and the destruction of an entire city did not catapault them to peace. Another thing to remember is how different the time was, this was a time when cities were laid waste to from the air, Hamburg, Coventry, Dresden, Tokyo, Niigata, on and on the list goes. Dropping a city destroying weapon on a city was not considered wrong or immoral, and with the evidence stated above supporting it, there is no real chance the Atomic Bomb would be "wasted" in the middle of no where.

maybe, i'm not sure, but i'll give you that point :D

The estimates including radiation deaths I've heard have never exceeded 300,000, and that was a very high estimate.

You REALLY need to read about something before posting nonsense.

Ever hear of the Potsdam Conference?

The Potsdam Conference, July - August 1945

On 16 July 1945, the "Big Three" leaders met at Potsdam, Germany, near Berlin. In this, the last of the World War II heads of state conferences, President Truman, Soviet Premier Stalin and British Prime Ministers Churchill and Atlee discussed post-war arrangements in Europe, frequently without agreement. Future moves in the war against Japan were also covered. The meeting concluded early in the morning of 2 August.

One result of the conference was a 26 July joint proclamation by the U.S., Great Britain and China, the three main powers then fighting Japan. This "Potsdam Declaration" described Japan's present perilous condition, gave the terms for her surrender and stated the Allies' intentions concerning her postwar status. It ended with an ultimatum: Japan must immediately agree to unconditionally surrender, or face "prompt and utter destruction".

--------------------------------------------------

On 6 August 1945 the Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima but this did not seem to have as much effect (In the Japanese Cabinet as the Russian declaration of war on 8 August. On 9 August immediately after the news of the Nagasaki bomb, Japan's Supreme War Council had a prearranged meeting with the emperor. The cabinet was split, because if they accepted the Potsdam declaration there was no guarantee for the emperor's position. Eventually the cabinet asked for the emperor's advice (In 10 August and he told them that they must accept the Allied terms. The Japanese sent a message to the Americans with a proviso concerning the emperor's position Stimson and Admiral Leahy were willing to accept this, but Byrnes, the Secretary of State, drafted a reply which stated that the Japanese government would be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Pacific Forces. The cabinet could not agree on this until 14 August when these terms were accepted. A couple of army officers tried to stage a coup d 'etat but they found little support.
---------------------------------------
So it wasn't the US doing this or the US doing that. Japan refused an unconditional surrender, until after Nagasaki.


We all know that China wanted to grind Japan into the dirt for what they did on the Chinese mainland.

The estimates including radiation deaths I've heard have never exceeded 300,000, and that was a very high estimate.


I am including not only those that died within days of the bombings. I'm including those that died within 10 years as well. The truth is we are never going to really know how many people died as a result.

I am including not only those that died within days of the bombings. I'm including those that died within 10 years as well. The truth is we are never going to really know how many people died as a result.


I'm including those who may have died 30 years after the bombing, and you are right, we will never know the exact number becuase many feared admitting to radiation sickness, becuase those who were were outcasts in the Japanese society. Becuase of this status many deaths went unrecorded, but still, oddballing it at a million is near absurd.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the biggest and strongest terrorist strike in the history of the world! There is no excuse at all to kill millions of defenseless people.There is such a diference between atacking a military base or two big cities.

the japanese got WAY less than they deserved with the dropping of those bombs. ask any korean, chinese or filipino who has living relatives from WW2. we dont need to feel sorry for the japanese or embarassed by our actions in stopping them.

Well, those jerkos shouldn't never oughtta have bombed the Lucy Tannea during World War I or Pearl Harbor during World War II. Seriously, bro.

I'm including those who may have died 30 years after the bombing, and you are right, we will never know the exact number becuase many feared admitting to radiation sickness, becuase those who were were outcasts in the Japanese society. Becuase of this status many deaths went unrecorded, but still, oddballing it at a million is near absurd.


How is it abusrd when you look at the population of the two cities and the surrounding fall out area? It is feasible.

the japanese got WAY less than they deserved with the dropping of those bombs. ask any korean, chinese or filipino who has living relatives from WW2. we dont need to feel sorry for the japanese or embarassed by our actions in stopping them.

You damn right about that, homedog. You're damn straight.

certin parts of the world are excluding form there histry books some of the worst things japan did to territorys it took.

certin parts of the world are excluding form there histry books some of the worst things japan did to territorys it took.


Every country in the world does that. It is selective editing. In some countries they don't even mention certain wars.

Japan was packed full of people, dropping it anywhere would have killed a lot.

What source did you get this, "Japan was already going to surrender" idea from?

History channel. origanally the emporer was considering surrendering but a few rouge commanders locked him up not allowing him to. They would have rather seen millions die than surrender.

we dont need to feel sorry for the japanese or embarassed by our actions in stopping them.
And no one should feel sorry for any American next time a plane flies into a US building.

And no one should feel sorry for any American next time a plane flies into a US building.

I think your statement is rather ignorant. So far no one on this thread has posted ANY facts to back up this "premise".

WE WERE AT WAR. Given the agreement of the Potsdam conference. ANY and ALL considerations for Japan's surrender were to be UNCONDITIONAL. Japan had refused this ultimatum.

If you wish to support a bunch of religious HATE fanatics, good for you. But personally, I find you to be ignorant of the circumstances that surrounded the attack on the US.

This was said. But I'll repeat it. Japan would most likely not have surrendered...for a very long time. That is, if they didn't fight to the very last man. And dropping the atomic bombs truly did save lives, against a full-scale invasion of Japan. And, why Hiroshima and Nagasaki? "Virgin targets." In order to witness the true effects of the bombs, they had to be dropped on targets that hadn't already been hit.

If you wish to support a bunch of religious HATE fanatics, good for you. But personally, I find you to be ignorant of the circumstances that surrounded the attack on the US.
I don't support them. I just don't feel sorry for Americans given their total lack of compassion for the people they murdered. Kinda makes it hard for me to feel anything when they finally are on the receiving end for a change.

And no one should feel sorry for any American next time a plane flies into a US building.

That was truly a stupid statement. #1. Japan and the US and her allies were at war.

The attack on the US in 2001 was without cause. I hope to god some of the european countries have planes full of innocent people slam into buildings. Then maybe you will grow the hell up.

I don't support them. I just don't feel sorry for Americans given their total lack of compassion for the people they murdered. Kinda makes it hard for me to feel anything when they finally are on the receiving end for a change.


You know what.. I say the USA should just bomb EUROPE TO THE GROUND like it was after WWII. We paid to keep them free. We paid to rebuild those countries. Hell.. let them try and rebuild after we nuke their butts.

NOTE: This is sarcasm :)

I don't support them. I just don't feel sorry for Americans given their total lack of compassion for the people they murdered. Kinda makes it hard for me to feel anything when they finally are on the receiving end for a change.

Murdered who?

Spare the generalizations, just so you can make derogatory comments about the US and Americans.

I could care less what you feel! When you make moronic statements like

And no one should feel sorry for any American next time a plane flies into a US building.


Go get an education!

That was truly a stupid statement. #1. Japan and the US and her allies were at war.
A great excuse to field test a new weapon of mass destruction eeh? Japan was for the US what the Spanish civil war was for the Germans.

The attack on the US in 2001 was without cause.
Without cause? So a bunch of terrorists where just bored that day? So they decided: hey lets high jack a couple of planes and kill ourselves in the process.

I hope to god some of the european countries have planes full of innocent people slam into buildings. Then maybe you will grow the hell up.
See? Thats why I hate Americans. Never for a second believing that they might did something wrong.

Murdered who?

Spare the generalizations, just so you can make derogatory comments about the US and Americans.

I could care less what you feel! When you make moronic statements like




Go get an education!


Yes who did we murder? Did the Japanese care who the hell was killed at Pearl Harbor? HELL NO! They just wanted to inflict as much damage as possible.

You VON seem to be under the impression that the US strikes back every single time we are attacked. That is not the case. The marine barracks in Lebanon during the 1980's. Many a good marine died. Did we go bomb Lebabon? No.

Murdered who?
N-A Indians
Mexicans
Germans
Vietnamese
Do I realy need to type it all out?


Go get an education!
Sharp.

Did we go bomb Lebabon? No.
No. You left that to the Israelis.

N-A Indians
Mexicans
Germans
Vietnamese
Do I realy need to type it all out?



Sharp.


Are you really that insane? It would seem to me that the US didn't murder the native americans. Considering we were ENGLISH COLONIES for the most part. The french and english used the Native Americans. Gee the mexicans.. were the hell did you pull that out from? Mexico and the US NEVER HAD A WAR!!!! It was the Republic of TEXAS!!!!! It wasn't even a part of the USA at the time.

GERMANS?? THAT IS NOT MURDERING!!! That is war! same for the vietnamese.


The Germans killed how many people during WWII? hmmm MILLIONS!

Another thing about the native americans you moron. My ancestors killed just as many white people so get off that path.

The decision to drop the bomb was not in any way an easy one for Truman to have made. If the bomb hadn't been used the Allies would have had to invade Japan in the same manner thaty did at Normandy. Only on a much, much larger scale. The Japanes command was considering surrender in private, while it preaced to the people that they were going to win the war and that they would never surrender; to fight to the last man, woman and child. The Japanese people had such fanatical faith in their emperor, they were the first suicide bombers in the world.

I have seen the plans for the invasion of Japan, the estimated casualty rate on the Allied side was 7-8 million, up to 20-30 million for the Japanese. These numbers were made by Allied commanders who greatly underestimated the Japanese defences. After the war, the Allies saw just how prepared the Japanese were for any invasion, they later estimate the Allied casualty rate would have been nearly, if not more than, double the earlier estimates.

The bomb was the alternative to save millions of lives. While there could have been better targets than heavily populated cities, it was definatley better than any invasion.

Thats the way of legitimate war, you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Lets try to get this lie out of the world.

First of there is a meeting between Japanese and Soviet diplomats on July 12 of 1945, where the Japanese tried to find out how they could end the war and the Soviets made clear about their intentions on taking Machuria. When the Soviet Union prepared for the operation the US dropped the bomb to scare the Soviets(2 days before they attacked). It was a Cold war move, nothing more.



1. The Japanese government wanted to surrender; its leaders, military as well as civilian, rationally understood that the war was lost. But they had a determined attachment (irrational?) to the emperor. Japan would have surrendered, very possibly as early as June 1945, had its ruling establishment received guarantees of the emperor's personal safety and continuance on the throne. This should have been the first step in an American surrender strategy.


There never was a first step. The possible coup by Hideki Tojo is an excuse. even if there were plans for such a coup, America should have tried to reach a peacful agreement and only have acted with weapons if these peaceful negotiations failed.


2. Any remaining Japanese reluctance to quit the war would have been quickly overcome by the second step, entry of the Soviet Union in August 1945.


And they knew it was coming, they knew on 12 July


3. American failure to accept and implement this "two-step logic" for an expeditious end to World War II was largely a result of the emerging Cold War and especially American concern over Soviet ambitions in Eastern Europe and northeast Asia.

4. The American public would have accepted some modification of the unconditional surrender policy in order to avoid prolongation of the war. The Washington Post and Time magazine advocated its abandonment; so did some United States senators. Many military leaders and diplomats-British as well as Americanconcurred.


.


5. President Harry S. Truman seemed inclined to give assurances on the emperor, then pulled back. He did so out of concern with Soviet behavior and with increasingly firm knowledge that the United States would soon have atomic weapons available. Coming to believe that the bomb would be decisive and anxious to keep the Soviet Union out of Manchuria, he dropped modification of unconditional surrender; moreover, he sought to prevent a Soviet declaration of war against Japan by encouraging China not to yield to Soviet demands beyond those granted at Yalta. In so doing, he acted primarily at the urging of James F. Byrnes, the archvillain in the plot.

6. Truman also refused to move on Japanese peace feelers, apparently in the belief that it was necessary to prevent a Japanese surrender before the bomb could be demonstrated to the world, and especially to the Soviet Union. The result was the needless destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - and many allied casualties that need not have happened.


What i wrote, only better


7. In subsequent years, the American decision makers of 1945 devoted considerable energy to the construction of a misleading "myth" that attempted to vindicate the use of the bomb by denying Japanese efforts at peace and by asserting grossly inflated estimates of American casualties that would have been sustained in an invasion of Japan.


Thats why i'm typing this


If the United States had given Japan conditional surrender terms, including retention of the emperor, at the war's outset [!], Japan would probably have surrendered sometime in the spring or early summer of 1945, if not sooner. . . . As it was, the dropping of the atomic bombs only hastened the surrender of an already defeated enemy.


Just to make sure you understand what i'm trying to tell you.

No. You left that to the Israelis.


Okay MORON! Israel didn't do a god damn thing after that bombing. How stupid are you?

From what I understand, (being not an entirely uneducated person), Japan's cabinet was evenly split on surrender after the first bombing at Hiroshima, those for surrender wanted the provision that the Emperor would remain above legal responsibility for the war. Those against reasoned that death was death and bayonet, firebombs and A-bombs were just different ways of going about it; thus they wished to fight on to glorious oblivion.

The Americans were in serious trouble militarily, morale of the incoming European front troops (which would be desperately needed in the event of an invadsion of the home islands) was so low as to be the primary concern of the generals. Casualty estimates ranged from 100k to over a million US troops, given the likelyhood of mass-suicide attacks, partisan warfare, and kamikaze attacks on landing/fleet craft. The Japanese population was greatly feared by US war leaders, considering the mass-suicides/killing of civilians during the Island-hopping campaigns.

McArthur drew up maps (which I have since obtained copies of. God I love the internet!), that would have US forces hitting Honshu rather close to Tokyo and driving both West and East to take out major political and industrial centers in the central part of the island while bombing the heck outta the northern part of the island (still relitively untouched by bombing raids). Kyushu and Honshu would be struck almost simultaneously, McArthur knew that Kyushu was a likely place for Japanese military officers to put up guerilla fights if Honshu was lost. The campaign was scheduled to be a grueling, affair, taking many months of careful slogging matched by lightning strikes at key centers.

The Russians had started invasions of Japanese northern perhiphery islands, eventually landing on parts of Hokkaido, WAY ahead of schedule, leading the Allies to belive that the Russians intended to split Japan like Germany (this later proved to be true, when Russia demanded Hokkaido and parts of Honshu even though the controlled neither militarily; to this day they dispute with Japan some far northern fishing islands that were invaded by Russia at the end of the war).

Pressured from the outside by the Russians and from within by their own concern for their troops, it seemed that forcing a surrender by releasing the second bomb was the only way to prevent massive losses on all sides. Even after the bombing at Nagasaki it seems hardline military officers staged an abortive coup attempt the night before the Emperor's recorded address to the nation was to be aired. (this I heard of only a little, I later saw something on the history channel about it, but I have not made my own verification on the Coup or its part in history, it seems accurate enough though).

The US occupation was concived in such a way that though technically the Emperor COULD have been prosecuted, the US quietly let the matter drop, instead humanizing the "diety" aspect of him. The "Ah, So" tours that he made allowed the emperor to quietly shed his mantle as a diety and become a more acceptable post-war figurehead. The amount of concern that went into respecting the US's fallen foe's condition was what truly made the occupation successful, though not perfect, it was as close as one could get in the very human world of politics.

A great excuse to field test a new weapon of mass destruction eeh? Japan was for the US what the Spanish civil war was for the Germans.

Comparing the Spanish Civil War to World War II in the Pacific, started by the Japanese?? Yeah, you're a real Einstein there! Spend most of your time in history class sleeping, I see. LMAO

Without cause? So a bunch of terrorists where just bored that day? So they decided: hey lets high jack a couple of planes and kill ourselves in the process.

You've given ZERO reasons, just innuendo and here-say, and your own personal hatred!!

See? Thats why I hate Americans. Never for a second believing that they might did something wrong.

Well, the truth is out. So from here on your posts should be considered biased, retarded, and based on hate. Just like your "buddy", Bin Laden.

No. You left that to the Israelis.


I SURE AS HELL DON'T EVER REMEMBER ISRAELI BOMBING IRAN!!!!!!! Since they were the masterminds behind the 1983 bombing.

Are you really that insane? It would seem to me that the US didn't murder the native americans. Considering we were ENGLISH COLONIES for the most part. The french and english used the Native Americans. Gee the mexicans.. were the hell did you pull that out from? Mexico and the US NEVER HAD A WAR!!!! It was the Republic of TEXAS!!!!! It wasn't even a part of the USA at the time.

GERMANS?? THAT IS NOT MURDERING!!! That is war! smae for the vietnamese

Yes as a matter of fact the US government did in fact order the murder of countless Native Americans. The only reason was that the government wanted their land. The whites(British, French, Spanish, Americans) massacred the Indians whenever the tribes had something they wanted. Hell, Andrew Jackson sent smallpox-laced blankets to several tribes to get them out.

And yes the US did got to war with Mexico, from 1846-1848. Look it up numbnuts.

Yes we were at war wit hthe Germans, and killing their soldiers who fight is not murder, but killing surrendering troops and civilians is.

If you don't think the US murdered anyone in Vietnam then you are pathetic.
Two word for you: MY LAI. Look that up.

N-A Indians
Mexicans
Germans
Vietnamese
Do I realy need to type it all out?

Do you need to be vague, just to act like you know something? Should I make a list of who the Germans killed, how about the Japanese?? Or has your hatred just blinded you THAT much?

Grow up!

Yes as a matter of fact the US government did in fact order the murder of countless Native Americans. The only reason was that the government wanted their land. The whites(British, French, Spanish, Americans) massacred the Indians whenever the tribes had something they wanted. Hell, Andrew Jackson sent smallpox-laced blankets to several tribes to get them out.

And yes the US did got to war with Mexico, from 1846-1848. Look it up numbnuts.

Yes we were at war wit hthe Germans, and killing their soldiers who fight is not murder, but killing surrendering troops and civilians is.

If you don't think the US murdered anyone in Vietnam then you are pathetic.
Two word for you: MY LAI. Look that up.


I know what MY LAI is.

I dare you to point out were we americans killed surrendering german troops?

I made a mistake about the mexican war.

Are you really that insane? It would seem to me that the US didn't murder the native americans. Considering we were ENGLISH COLONIES for the most part. The french and english used the Native Americans. Gee the mexicans.. were the hell did you pull that out from? Mexico and the US NEVER HAD A WAR!!!! It was the Republic of TEXAS!!!!! It wasn't even a part of the USA at the time.
I'm insane? Then what do you call the Indian wars when the US pushed the Indians into reservations? And what was Gen. Custers favorit passtime activity? And hello, American-Mexican war of 1846-1848. And eventhough Texas wasn't a state the US did see it fit to support them against .

GERMANS?? THAT IS NOT MURDERING!!! That is war! smae for the vietnamese
Systematicly starving them in the Rheinwiesen camps is war? Eventhough the war was over? Or the intentionall bombing of civilians in totally defenceless and overcrowded cities is war? Eventhough there were no armies or military installations left to justify it?
I'm not even starting on Vietnam.

Two word for you: MY LAI. Look that up.

Auschitz
Dachau
Treblinka
Belsen
Natzweiler
Belsen
Malmedy

Here's a few words for you to look up!

Do you need to be vague, just to act like you know something?
Do I need to do your research cause your to dumb to use google yourself?


Should I make a list of who the Germans killed, how about the Japanese?? Or has your hatred just blinded you THAT much?
No. I'm fully aware of that. But Americans prefer to overlook their own crimes. Like you do.

Grow up!
Take your own advise and look it up yourself.

I'm insane? Then what do you call the Indian wars when the US pushed the Indians into reservations? And what was Gen. Custers favorit passtime activity? And hello, American-Mexican war of 1846-1848. And eventhough Texas wasn't a state the US did see it fit to support them against .

Systematicly starving them in the Rheinwiesen camps is war? Eventhough the war was over? Or the intentionall bombing of civilians in totally defenceless and overcrowded cities is war? Eventhough there were no armies or military installations left to justify it?
I'm not even starting on Vietnam.

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT STARVING PEOPLE? How about the mighty german army not even taking prisoners. How about just shooting them. They did it to the russians at will.

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT STARVING PEOPLE? How about the mighty german army not even taking prisoners. How about just shooting them. They did it to the russians at will.
That explains the 2 million Soviet prisoners returned into comrade Stalins loving embrace after the war. :rolleyes:

That explains the 2 million Soviet prisoners returned into comrade Stalins loving embrace after the war. :rolleyes:


They killed hundreds of thousands of russians instead of feeding and clothing them. The rest they used for slave labor. I see you are just another person that cannot see past the big nose on your face.

Systematicly starving them in the Rheinwiesen camps is war? Eventhough the war was over?

Wow. You REALLY don't know anything. Just who had ANY food in Europe? Britain didn't(thanks to Germany's U-boats), France didn't, Germany didn't. WHY?? How do you grow food when there's a war on? You don't. Why was there a war? Well, ask yourself that question, Fritz!


Or the intentionall bombing of civilians in totally defenceless and overcrowded cities is war?

Yeah, we learned that from your Luftwaffe.

Eventhough there were no armies or military installations left to justify it?

Yeah, we learned that from the Luftwaffe also.
I'm not even starting on Vietnam.

Considering you've lost the argument so far, it's understandable.

They killed hundreds of thousands of russians instead of feeding and clothing them. The rest they used for slave labor. I see you are just another person that cannot see past the big nose on your face.
I don't deny it. I don't defend it. Unlike Americans who can't see beyond their beer/burger guts. Who mass murdered German, Japanese, Vietnamese etc... civilians in the name of democracy and don't believe that might be wrong.

Do I need to do your research cause your to dumb to use google yourself?


No. I'm fully aware of that. But Americans prefer to overlook their own crimes. Like you do.

Take your own advise and look it up yourself.

Yes. Change the subject, so you can LOOK like you know what you're talking about. Yet again.

Keep on hating....

I don't deny it. I don't defend it. Unlike Americans who can't see beyond their beer/burger guts. Who mass murdered German, Japanese, Vietnamese etc... civilians in the name of democracy and don't believe that might be wrong.

Yes. Condemn the US. And turn a blind eye to all your country has done. Typical.

The moral is, people...

WAR is WRONG.

Von Witzleben said that the US doesn't own up to the mistakes they have made in the past. You need glasses. Right now there is talk about paying african americans back for there days in slavery. The US government has already paid the Japanese Americans money because of their imprisonment during WWII. Gee what did Germany do for the Jews they murdered? Oh yeah.. ripped out there gold teeth. Stole all there property and then but it in banks. Were now the surviving relatives can't get at it without 100% proof that their relatives were MURDERED by the WARMONGERING GERMANS OF WWII.

Wow. You REALLY don't know anything. Just who had ANY food in Europe? Britain didn't(thanks to Germany's U-boats), France didn't, Germany didn't. WHY?? How do you grow food when there's a war on? You don't. Why was there a war? Well, ask yourself that question, Fritz!
They did seem to have enough food for their troops and the civilians in the other nations. For some reason it didn't get to the German civilian population untill the Soviets started to look like a threat.



Yeah, we learned that from your Luftwaffe.
Actually Luftwaffe learned it from the RAF.



Considering you've lost the argument so far
Only in your mind.

Yes. Condemn the US. And turn a blind eye to all your country has done. Typical.
So far the only one turning a blind eye is you.

So far the only one turning a blind eye is you.


Okay.... every single country has screwed up in its past. That much is given. Every country has faults. All we are doing right now is digging up old wounds and making hateful comments. I'm going to stop. War isn't the answer, but sometimes it is a necessary evil.

They killed hundreds of thousands of russians instead of feeding and clothing them. The rest they used for slave labor. I see you are just another person that cannot see past the big nose on your face.

Incorrect many were offered to join the German forces, and some accepted
Major-General Trukhin, head of the operational section of the Baltic Region Chief of Staffs, professor at the General Chiefs of Staff Academy. Major-General Malyshkin, head of the Chiefs of Staff of the 19th Army. Major-General Zakutny, professor at the General Chiefs of Staff Academy. Major-Generals Blagoveshchensky, brigade commander; Shapovalov, artillery corps commander; and Meandrov. Brigade commander Zhilenkov, member of the Military Council of the 32nd Army. Colonels Maltsev, Zverev, Nerianin and Buniachenko, commander of the 389th Armed Division.
Not to forget Colonel Mileti Zykov (a Jew), member of RONA, AA Vlasovs Russian Liberation Army.

Vlasov later surrendered to the US and was handed over to the USSR where he got executed. Nice way to fight a cold war.

Von Witzleben said that the US doesn't own up to the mistakes they have made in the past. You need glasses. Right now there is talk about paying african americans back for there days in slavery. The US government has already paid the Japanese Americans money because of their imprisonment during WWII.
Oh. They started talking about it. How nice of them.


Gee what did Germany do for the Jews they murdered? Oh yeah.. ripped out there gold teeth. Stole all there property and then but it in banks.
Typical ignorant American talk.

WARMONGERING GERMANS OF WWII.
Warmongerers who had a good relationship with the family of a certain US politician. Who helped them to rearm.

They did seem to have enough food for their troops and the civilians in the other nations. For some reason it didn't get to the German civilian population untill the Soviets started to look like a threat.

Of course they did. All because you say so. No proof needed, I see.



Actually Luftwaffe learned it from the RAF.

Really? I could have swore Germany attacked Poland, Belgium, France, England.....

I guess those were British bombers flying over London.



Only in your mind.
Which isn't clouded by hate.

I'm going to stop.
Fine.

And no one should feel sorry for any American next time a plane flies into a US building.
you need to read up on what japan DID in world war 2

I don't deny it. I don't defend it. Unlike Americans who can't see beyond their beer/burger guts. Who mass murdered German, Japanese, Vietnamese etc... civilians in the name of democracy and don't believe that might be wrong.

Dude, please don't flame the U.S. I don't think you'd like somebody flaming your country. And as for 'murdering Vietnamese,' yeah, there were of course U.S. soldiers that did it, but most of them were not like that. Read 'Stolen Valor,' 'In Their Defense: U.S. Soldiers In the Vietnam War' (written by a Vietnamese), 'Losers are Pirates: A Close Look at the PBS Series Vietnam a Television History,' the website www.hanoijohnkerry.com and its many links, etc. for details.

same subject sort of. Does anyone know the names of the planes that dropped the atomic bombs?

I know one is the Enola Gay.. but I don't know the other one.. it just came up on a trivia quiz lol and I so want to win :)


*bangs on his cherokee drums*


oh and Roach Busters? He had a reason to flame. I umm did insult him first.

same subject sort of. Does anyone know the names of the planes that dropped the atomic bombs?

I know one is the Enola Gay.. but I don't know the other one.. it just came up on a trivia quiz lol and I so want to win :)


*bangs on his cherokee drums*


oh and Roach Busters? He had a reason to flame. I umm did insult him first.

Bock's Car

The generals were the real rulers of Japan from the start to the end. But they would also have refused any surrender iam sure.

and lets not forget Japan invading China and half a dozen other countrys in the region solely for conquest and later for oil... oil wich was solely needed bye the army wich would mean that they wanted oil.. but why want oil for an army u wont use ?... ergo they wanted to use their army for further conquest when they attacked Pearl Harbor(along with the british colonies)..

so in short: we have a fanatical leaded country, with troops who believe their leader is god. Who already have invaded mouch of the world, some of the invasion solely for oil needed for further conquest.

ps. the nukes were supposed to both frighten the japanese generals and take out some of their infra structure.. and one was enough...

Bock's Car


Hey thanks a million :)

Hey thanks a million :)


No problem.

I hope to god some of the european countries have planes full of innocent people slam into buildings.

I can't even believe someone would suggest such a thing. To feel satisfaction for the destruction of innocent lives is simply appalling. This is exactly why so many people in this world hate americans.

same subject sort of. Does anyone know the names of the planes that dropped the atomic bombs?

I know one is the Enola Gay.. but I don't know the other one.. it just came up on a trivia quiz lol and I so want to win :)


*bangs on his cherokee drums*


oh and Roach Busters? He had a reason to flame. I umm did insult him first.

Sorry!

Lot of you seem to believe only americans have commited despicable acts during wartimes. Almost every country in the world has done some horrible things whilst at war. As for dropping "Little Boy" and "Fat Man", if the war would have dragged on i believe the japanese would have used their WMD in defense of their homeland. Although they did not have nuclear capacity, they were far advanced in the development of biological weapons through the work of unit 731.

The bombs did end the war. The Hiroshima bomb forced those who recognised that the war was lost to face the fact that only unconditional surrender, and gave them the motivation to fight "to the last man, woman and child" factions. There is documentation of the internal conflicts among the Japanese leadership, up to and including an attempted coup the very day the Emporer made his speach.

Was it justified? Well, we already knew that civilian were willing to commit suicide on a large scale rather than surrender. And from my adoptive mother, I know the Japanese civilian population was being primed to resist with anything and everything they had. So, the issue of casualties becomes an issue, not only of the troops facing such futile but determined attacks, and the attackers themselves. Even the most optimistic casualty rates indicated a LOT more people would have died.

And there is one side effect to using the bombs on Japan during wartime. The world got to see exactly how devestating such weapons were. I believe that memory had an effect on the outcome of the Cold War. The knowledge that even a "victory" in a nuclear exchange would mean you lost influenced the politicians of the era into not quite crossing that line.

Speaking of the cold war, there is also the issue of what an extended conflict would do in the region. The USSR waited until after the first bomb was used to enter the war with Japan, and did so by simply grabbing up some Japanese islands unable to resist. Going for the cheap victories in short. In an invasion, the USSR would have used the opportunity to grab even more land that we were not eager to have them control, nor were we willing to fight them over. A quick surrender did put at least a bit of a curb on the USSR's landgrabs.

Was the use of the atom bomb a good thing? No. But I think, especially given the information and circumstances in which the decision was made, that it was the right one. The best decision out of a short list of unpleasant alternatives.

btw the name of the second B29 was "Bock's car" i believe

Hey, man, we had as much right to bomb Japan as we did to invade Iraq last march

japan and iraq are completly different stories.

Yeah they are!! Japan bombed us, Iraq shoved airplanes into our capitol. What's the big difference?? :fluffle:

The emperor himself wanted to surrender right after the Potsdam meeting. But many in his government refused. Indeed, after he recorded his message to Japan on his surrender, a renegade general attempted a coup by taking over the palace, and trying to get the emperor to change his mind. Only after the recording was played on Japanese radio was surrender a reality.

Iraq shoved airplanes into our capitol.
I hope to god that you are being sarcastic. For one thing, the only things hit were the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, NOT THE CAPITOL BUILDING! That and there was never any sort of semi-proven link between Iraq and al-Qaida. Saddam and bin Laden held VERY different ideals and WERE NOT FRIENDS! Sorry for the excessive use of caps, but boundless ignorance pisses me off.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were definitely horrible, but no so much as horrible as whatever the Japanese Imperial Army, Navy and Air Force was doing away with other people in Asia. They torture and rape and murder and made millions of people suffer, and now they're complaining about a bomb that wipes out millions in an instant. i think it's a ridiculous complaint. i'm not saying it's nice to pay revenge, but i'm saying "you will be treated with the way you treat others".

The US acts like they think they are such dang role models. I'd hope another country didn't do something like that. People think it's okay for the US to do it. Imagine if Iraq pulled out an A-Bomb and used it on a small country.

So sir, were you not the one to start this post. Cause you sounded pretty ignorant to me. You are trying to tell me that Japan was planning on surrendering to the US under their terms, yeah maybe in another 50 years. Yeah you're the one telling us that dropping the bombs were a "bad idea."

Well look at it now, Japan is our friend, they no longer have any bad blood with the US and they are a very strong country economically. See maybe the people in charge know what they are doing.

Yeah and I am sure Bush knows what he is doing too.

Why do I say that you ask me. Well see we are civilians and because we have no clearence we aren't told the whole truths. Did you know that Truman never heard about the Atomic bombs till three weeks after he became president and they were planning on not telling him in the first place. See I am sure the government has its reasons for invading Iraq (and things will turn out good), like they had reasons to drop the bombs on Japan.

That explains the 2 million Soviet prisoners returned into comrade Stalins loving embrace after the war. :rolleyes:

Considering the Germans captured over 6,000,000 in the great cauldrons of 1941.........

The emperor himself wanted to surrender right after the Potsdam meeting. But many in his government refused. Indeed, after he recorded his message to Japan on his surrender, a renegade general attempted a coup by taking over the palace, and trying to get the emperor to change his mind. Only after the recording was played on Japanese radio was surrender a reality.

The Emperor never made his intentions to surrender clear until the meeting after Nagasaki was attacked. His memoirs (I used to know the name by heart, anyone?) state he had entertained the idea of peace beforehand, but you must remember this was written post-war, and he never discussed it with anyone in the high echelons of Imperial Command. He never wavered in his support of Ketsu-Go either, the Imperial Army Minister (Was it Anami?) regularly stated having the Emperor's full support.

Hey, man, we had as much right to bomb Japan as we did to invade Iraq last march

Must mean we have a hell of a lot more reason to be in Iraq than I thought.

How many would have died in a prolonged military campaign on the Japanese mainland, through the fields and streets of their homeland? At least the A-bombs took out whole families, so there were fewer people mourning the loss of loved ones. A bit weak, I know.
In any case, the Axis forces were definately developing nuclear capability and there was no reason to think the Japanese weren't, so the quickest and most expedient method of assuring surrender was used.