NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, a thought popped back into my mind.

How many of you don't stand for the pledge?
Those of you who do stand, do you know WHY the phrase "under god" is in there?

A while back, I had the opinion that you should stand because it was respectful, you didn't necessarily have to say the word "god".
Then, I learned about the history of the pledge and now I am completely against standing for it, much less saying it.

Why, you must be one of the most Un-patriotic people i have ever known, besides Michel Moore and the hippies. Saying the pledge of alleigence is part of our heritage!! We've beendoing it for more than 100 years! In most other countries in the world, they say their pledge of allegience or their national Anthem. Why cant we? ANd if you dont like the fact that it has a religious symbol in there. Think of this. Msot americans are christians. And then there are Muslims and JEws. They all have god too, so they wouldnt care. Even I ont believe in god, but i still say it because it is patriotic. Now while getting rid of God would end alot of controversy, just because a small minority of people who have big mouths dont like it doesnt make it right to get rid of it.

Why, you must be one of the most Un-patriotic people i have ever known, besides Michel Moore and the hippies. Saying the pledge of alleigence is part of our heritage!! We've beendoing it for more than 100 years! In most other countries in the world, they say their pledge of allegience or their national Anthem. Why cant we? ANd if you dont like the fact that it has a religious symbol in there. Think of this. Msot americans are christians. And then there are Muslims and JEws. They all have god too, so they wouldnt care. Even I ont believe in god, but i still say it because it is patriotic. Now while getting rid of God would end alot of controversy, just because a small minority of people who have big mouths dont like it doesnt make it right to get rid of it.

that was so full of crap i'll take it as a joke post

LMAO

Being British, I can hardly vouch for anything to do with the pledge, but I'll point one or two things out.

1) Saying God does not imply Patriotism.

2) Just because Michael Moore hates W, and thinks most Americans are stupid, doesn't make him unpatriotic. It just makes him an asshole.

3) as a bypoint to 1), Muslims and Jews have God yes, but not the God that is implied in the pledge. In that sense, I would be deeply offended by it.

4) I don't think that anyone seriously suggested that abolishing it was right: the first guy just said he was against it. He wasn't saying that people for it were wrong.

On a more personal note, I'm not a religious person, and hold no particular faith. However, when we were in school assemblies, I would say the lord's prayer because it's what we did. Recently, our school has tried to bring in a new version of it, with different words. I would ask anyone religious this question: wouldn't you be offended by that? Somebody tampering with something Jesus allegedly wrote, and thinking that their version is better?

Good thread mind...

i still stand for the Pledge, though i don't say the "under God" part for two reasons. first, because i don't believe we are under God, and i think it would be wrong of me to lie while pledging to my country. second, because i respect those who do believe and wouldn't tarnish their faith by repeating the words "under God" in the Pledge, as those words were added purely as a political manuever to use religion against those godless commies back in the 50s. nobody who respects their God would want to perpetuate that tradition, since it is the tradition of religion being used for the political aims of those in power.

and id like to point out the pledge itself was changed to add udner god only 50 years ago when the kngihts of colombus decided to start putting christianity in the government, it was without any reference to god for 60 years

How does America know god approves and considers us to be under him.

How does America know god approves and considers us to be under him.
because george bush and the christians say so duhhh :rolleyes:

... This post scares me...

And i did day i didnt aporve of under god part ":P.

On a more personal note, I'm not a religious person, and hold no particular faith. However, when we were in school assemblies, I would say the lord's prayer because it's what we did. Recently, our school has tried to bring in a new version of it, with different words. I would ask anyone religious this question: wouldn't you be offended by that? Somebody tampering with something Jesus allegedly wrote, and thinking that their version is better?

Good thread mind...Yeah, our school did that too. Although I always resented having religion forced on me, so I didn't say it from the start. Except once time when we had all of our year yelling the original version and pissing off our headmistress. Good times...

Why, you must be one of the most Un-patriotic people i have ever known, besides Michel Moore and the hippies. Saying the pledge of alleigence is part of our heritage!! We've beendoing it for more than 100 years! In most other countries in the world, they say their pledge of allegience or their national Anthem. Why cant we? ANd if you dont like the fact that it has a religious symbol in there. Think of this. Msot americans are christians. And then there are Muslims and JEws. They all have god too, so they wouldnt care. Even I ont believe in god, but i still say it because it is patriotic. Now while getting rid of God would end alot of controversy, just because a small minority of people who have big mouths dont like it doesnt make it right to get rid of it.

ah just what i was expecting!

100 years? PLEASE! The pledge has changed. many times.


I pledge allegiance to my Flag and [to] the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
^^^ original pledge.
No "under god" bull.


La de da a few decades pass and some smartasses... aka The Daughters of the American Revolution.. decided that part of the Pledge wasn't really.. correct. At least that was their opinion. So they changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy didn't approve of the change at all, but so what? he's just the author, conceptualist and man with the plan. Who cares what he has to say? And it was so. Thus it became:


Quote:
I pledge allegiance to my the Flag of the United States, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.


The "of America" part was added just a year later. No big deal.

Might I add that none of this bullshit was ever really official. These people were just messing with some guy's work and it didn't even have some bullshit goverment stamp behind it or anything.


1942- supreme court ruled that schools COULD NOT FORCE children to recite the pledge, now with the "United States of America" added


Then a few more decades pass.. Some major things happen with the world and in 1954 Congress and president Eisenhower decided that it would be a FANTASTIC idea to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. Oh yeah, and next time someone tells you that the reference to "God" in the pledge is secular.. well that's a load of bullshit.

Mr. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Quote:
In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war.


Now isn't it strange that two brances of government would just happen to think it's a great idea to do this? Remember what year we're in - 1954. For those of you less familiar with history I'll remind you that World War II just ended and we now find ourselves at an uncomfortable few decades with the soviets better known as the Cold War.

Just in case you still can't put two and two together I'll just tell you. We added GOD to the pledge as part of the effort to rid our country of those red commie atheist bastards that were infiltrating our schools and businesses. I'd also like to point out that Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, was also a diehard utopian socialist. If you don't see the irony in that.. well.. maybe we need another genocidal period to get rid of people like you too =)

So now it reads

Quote:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all.


Isn't that amazing.. Well I hope you all learned something new today. But wait! That's not all.

Everyone that's reading this has been part of a historical moment in the pledge's history. If you'll think back to oh.. Just a few years ago when this whole "under God" in the pledge thing started you might remember that some states started exercising their rights. Illinois happened to be one of those states. King George, aka Governor Ryan, was outraged that anyone would try to remove GOD from such a document. He, along with several other governors, decided for his state that we would set aside time in the day for the pledge to be recited. Previously time had always been set aside for the Pledge in grades K-8. Interesting that they would stop trying to force us into cult-like activities once we near an age where we can all easily think for ourselves, isn't it? Well Ryan didn't think that was enough, so now we have it for all grades K-12.

I don't have a problem with "under god". I'm Christian so I suppose that is typical, but I know a lot of other people that aren't Christian, and they just don't say the "under God" part. It doesn't bother them so much that they want to take a couple words out of a freaking poem! I knew a Buddhist girl and she actually said the "under god" all school year, and never cared at all. This is my opinion, GET OVER IT!

more from God:

You have many things to consider now.

1. The Pledge most people recite today is hardly the same as when it was first written. It's not even abridged; it's completely changed and the author and those closest to him haven't approved of any of the changes. I wouldn't teach abridged Shakespeare and most of you wouldn't bother reading it. Why would you recite the Pledge or encourage those that do?

2. The Pledge was most likely forced on you as a child and if it wasn't, you probably didn't know you had a choice in saying it or not. Despite that fact - isn't it enough evidence that making children recite something to which they cannot even pronounce the words, let alone know their meaning, is just a tad tyrannical-cultist? Dare I say.. ludicrous? Don't even think about the children right now.. think about how many people you know that could actually tell you in plain engilsh what the Pledge is all about. Think of people your age.. Think of adults.. Could you do it? Now think of children. Now try to tell me that isn't just fucking SICK. Even if nothing else about the Pledge means anything to you, even if none of the history is real, the fact that we force it on childern, a population of people that we readily acknowledge "cannot make good decisions for themselves" "are easily impressionable" and "need to be taught", should be enough to make you understand that what we do with the Pledge today is unpatriotic.

3. People have tried to pass legislation requiring school children to recite the Pledge. There are laws in place today that require time be set aside for the recital of the Pledge. Isn't it a bit strange that we would require the recital of a piece of literature whose words embody the cocepts of liberty? Isn't it strange that people, children and adults, today think that they are required to pledge their allegiance to a country whose basis for government is to protect the freedoms of its people?

4. If you're a believer in God or multiple gods, one of the key elements of many religions is the ability of man to make decisions for himself. Many religions teach lessons of non-agression as well. Even if you believe in God, shouldn't you protest that people attempt to coerce you and others into reciting such a thing?

5. All the revisions to the Pledge and laws surrounding it are a result of fear. The change "of the United States of America" was based on the fear that immigrants would think they were saying it to their flag and not the flag of the United States. The addition of "under God" was based on the fear of communisim at home and abroad. The attempted passage of laws requiring the recital of the Pledge were based on the fear that if it wasn't ingrained into every child's mind from the moment he or she set foot in school that we would be a nation of unpatriotic and non-nationalist, non-jingoist communists. The laws that hold place today to make sure time is set aside were purely based on the fear that the Supreme Court would rule the Pledge or parts of it unconstitutional. We are a nation of freedoms and liberty - not a nation of tyranny. We are a nation of people that founded their government on liberty and personal responsibility - not a government that makes decisions for its people because they're too afraid to do it for themselves. We speak of patriotism and freedom. "These colors don't run" We speak of undying devotion to country and a fearless race that will die for freedom and liberty for all. Millions of men have died for this cause and you dare to say that forcing the recital of a Pledge with the most unpatriotic and fearful history of any famous document in the United States is patriotic?

We don't know history, we're scared of change and we don't understand what we're talking about so we force our children into saying words they can't understand and then we try to pass it off as national bonding and freedom-loving.

I don't say the Pledge, I don't stand for it. I think the people that do are unpatriotic, ignorant fools and I'm not at all afraid to say that to any of them. Not knowing the history behind the Pledge is no excuse - most of you have been coerced into saying it or thought you had to say it almost every school day for probably more than half of your lives and if you didn't take the time to learn about it by now then you could hardly be called a responsible citizen. My hat goes off to all of those who have taken action by just sitting down. Extra points for those who make it to the Supreme Court. I applaud you.


oh, and if you'd like to read more of this:

http://www.ifakedit.com/mb/viewtopic.php?t=162

i <3 ifakedit

How does America know god approves and considers us to be under him.

Whether God approves of America or not, America is still one nation under God. The nation is not equal to God or above God, therefore it is under God.
"God" in the pledge does not specify a Christian God or God of the Jews or Allah. I would argue that they are all the same God. However, when you say the pledge it is only relevant that you believe America is one nation under the God you believe in. Atheists and communists (who are atheist by definition) may have a problem saying the pledge which is the whole point of having that phrase in the pledge in the first place.

So Zwako, you're saying america is OK with freedom of religion, but you need a religion? I dont think the pledge's purpose is to offend athiests.

I don't stand for the pledge, but not because of the "under god" bit.

I don't do it because I don't really feel the need to make an oath to a piece of fabric that has changed more times than Michael Jackson's nose.

I might be swayed to make an oath to the Constitution, but the flag? Feh. Useless.

Whether God approves of America or not, America is still one nation under God. The nation is not equal to God or above God, therefore it is under God.
"God" in the pledge does not specify a Christian God or God of the Jews or Allah. I would argue that they are all the same God. However, when you say the pledge it is only relevant that you believe America is one nation under the God you believe in. Atheists and communists (who are atheist by definition) may have a problem saying the pledge which is the whole point of having that phrase in the pledge in the first place.
1) bullshit, it DOES specifiy the christian god, only people who are either accidently or purposefully ignorant of how and why it was added say that

2) woo woo propaganda the populace at large might believe if you try harder

3) there are alot more damn people than atheists that have problems with it.

AHA you JUST recognized it was added to add christianity into the government. man shut the hell up

Well I'm British, so can't answer the poll. For what it's worth, I don't stand for the National Anthem, but I do for the Red Flag. If we were a Republic, I would stand for the original American Pledge, but not for a pledge which contains any reference to God. I would stand for our National Anthem if it didn't contain references to God, the Queen or any relationship they might have.

Well, a thought popped back into my mind.

How many of you don't stand for the pledge?
Those of you who do stand, do you know WHY the phrase "under god" is in there?

A while back, I had the opinion that you should stand because it was respectful, you didn't necessarily have to say the word "god".
Then, I learned about the history of the pledge and now I am completely against standing for it, much less saying it.

Who gives a damn. Seriously. It's out of respect. Who cares if you don't believe in god.

Who gives a damn. Seriously. It's out of respect. Who cares if you don't believe in god.
who gives a damn if you do? it doesnt give you a reason to make the rest of us believe it

Oh right, like the US needs to be respected this way. Sure, it doesn't matter if our policies alienate us from the rest of the world, that no one respects at least half of Americans (probably more)... at least Uncle Sam isn't offended by someone NOT saying the stupid pledge! Let's just say the damn thing so Uncle Sam won't CRY, we don't want to HURT THE NATION'S FEELINGS.

Hehe. Anyway, I've never enjoyed saying this thing when forced to, growing up. It never had a point. Did anyone else here enjoy it? Did they get a kick out of saying it, like it made them feel better and that they would have considered their childhoods less good, had they not said it ever?

When you think about it, this kind of nationalism is just a bit too Hitler Youth for my tastes. It only serves to infuse blind loyalty to the government. Ha! As if parents won't beat that into their kids anyway. Uneeded.

Who gives a damn. Seriously. It's out of respect. Who cares if you don't believe in god.


Guess you dont give a damn to read the entirety of my former posts on this thread, eh? i think i should refer you to a few posts back when I was quoting from another message board. The "God of ifakedit.com" ones.

its not about believing about god or not. The pledge is the way it is now because of FEAR. fear of immigrants and communists/athiests.

Why support your own country when it claims to be open to (legal) immigrants, yet puts the phrase "United States of America" in the pledge so foreigners dont think they're pledging to THEIR flag?

Why support your own country when it claims to have "freedom of religion", yet it sticks the phrase "under god" in its pledge to scare off athiests?

Why don't we just make it one nation, under Canada? That would clear a bunch of things up, AND enhance geography scores!

and it would be non offensive!

ok if your not in America then you should have no say in this you shit heads. First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years and it pisses me off that all these God damn foreigners keep saying we should take it out well u know what kiss our ass you fucking mexican,muslim cock sucker! cause its in their weather u like it or not so get over it assholes and go find a diffrent country to harass u fucking dip shits! :) :sniper:

How many of you don't stand for the pledge?

I don't. But that's because I am Australian and our country is better than yours, except that it is run by sycophantic morons.

That is all.

First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years

"Under God" has been in the pledge for 50 years. It was added during the McCarthy era. You are the dumbass. And a racist one at that.

ok if your not in America then you should have no say in this you shit heads. First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years and it pisses me off that all these God damn foreigners keep saying we should take it out well u know what kiss our ass you fucking mexican,muslim cock sucker! cause its in their weather u like it or not so get over it assholes and go find a diffrent country to harass u fucking dip shits! :) :sniper:


WOULD YOU FUCKERS STOP THINKING THE PLEDGE HAS NOT CHANGED IN 100 YEARS!

"under god" has been in it for about 60 years. you god damn people are too lazy to read through a few paragraphs just because its quoted! it was added to scare off communists who were by definition athiest. you bastards need to READ!

"Under God" has been in the pledge for 50 years. It was added during the McCarthy era. You are the dumbass. And a racist one at that.

thank you.
i honestly think you are the first one besides me to acknowledge that.

I don't. But that's because I am Australian and our country is better than yours, except that it is run by sycophantic morons.

That is all.

LMMFAO. While I loved visting Australia. I'd rather live in my state of michigan in the USA. Where I don't have to worry about spiders, snakes and or crocs and gators killing me :)

One nation under Cthulhu! :D

Sorry.

ok if your not in America then you should have no say in this you shit heads. First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years and it pisses me off that all these God damn foreigners keep saying we should take it out well u know what kiss our ass you fucking mexican,muslim cock sucker! cause its in their weather u like it or not so get over it assholes and go find a diffrent country to harass u fucking dip shits! :) :sniper:


And we wonder why the world hates us as a country?

/me points at Monnoroth

I think I will move to Toronto and start cheering for the maple leaf :)

ok if your not in America then you should have no say in this you shit heads. First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years and it pisses me off that all these God damn foreigners keep saying we should take it out well u know what kiss our ass you fucking mexican,muslim cock sucker! cause its in their weather u like it or not so get over it assholes and go find a diffrent country to harass u fucking dip shits! :) :sniper:

I just wanted to point out that most Mexicans are Christian (a lot of them are Catholic). So don't harass them.

LMMFAO. While I loved visting Australia. I'd rather live in my state of michigan in the USA. Where I don't have to worry about spiders, snakes and or crocs and gators killing me :)

I live in suburban Brisbane. You'd be amazed at how often people around here don't get attacked by spiders, snakes and crocadiles. I haven't seen a snake in years and the only crocadile I've ever seen was the dead, stuffed one that my grandmother brought back from New Guinea.

And I'm pretty sure there aren't any alligators in Australia. Not wild ones, anyway.

I live in suburban Brisbane. I can't even remember the last time I saw as snake and you'd be amazed at how often people around here don't get attacked by spiders, snakes and crocadiles.

And I'm pretty sure there aren't any alligators in Australia. Not wild ones, anyway.


hehehehe I was being a little bit sarcastic :) I just want a place were the worse thing is running your vehicle into a deer and the snow in winter ^_^

Anyway. You people have fun debating this. If I couldn't convince my father that he wasn't saying UNDER GOD everytime he said it, then you guys will never convince these people here that it was added in the 1950's.

ok if your not in America then you should have no say in this you shit heads. First of all if you think "Under God" should be takin out your a real dumbass and u should leave this country beacuse its been in our country ever for over 100 years and it pisses me off that all these God damn foreigners keep saying we should take it out well u know what kiss our ass you fucking mexican,muslim cock sucker! cause its in their weather u like it or not so get over it assholes and go find a diffrent country to harass u fucking dip shits! :) :sniper:


Ignorant. You are just plain ignorant. America stands for free speach, and I feel that foreigners have just as much right to voice their opinion as Americans do, especially without getting harrassed for it. American's are not always right, and we don't alway's have the answers. We must listen as well as speak.

The point is, I find your message to be disrespectful to everyone.

Yes, but I don't put my hand over my heart, or sing along. I just don't feel like I have to do those things, and I feel that they are rather silly. Almost like I'm being put in front of a tribunal, and giving an oath. ANywho...

well isnt standing and saying some words you dont think about just as silly then?

Oh, yes, I should voice an opinion, too, eh?

I don't stand for the pledge, but I have respect for anyone who chooses to do so.

It is obviously the "Christian" god, which I have no belief in.

And it was obviously added as a way to discriminate against, as well as destroy communism. It has no place in today's society, and I don't know why it even had a place back then...although, fear can be a great motivator!

another thought popped into my mind just now...

how many of your schools set aside time during the day to say the pledge?
Those of you who dont stand- has a teacher ever tried to force you to stand?

isnt it a little outrageous that they FORCE you to stand for something symbolic of freedom??

What a lot of you don't seem to understand is this country WAS founded under a christian God. Freedom of Religion means you do not have to follow that religion, not that religion is removed from the government. I proudly stand for the pledge and Ii proudly say every word. I don't expect you too, but all this about saying it should be changed is a violation of Freedom of Religion itself. The Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves over this Hypocrisy, which is all it is when you get down to it, forcing atheism upon those of faith.

oh, so athiests cant force ourselves upon christians? becuase thats EXACTLY what were trying to do! sorry about that. I guess christians can go ahead and impose themselves on everyone else like they have been. and while were at it, lets just throw away this whole bull about "separation of church and state" since noone seems to care about it anyway.

Guess you dont give a damn to read the entirety of my former posts on this thread, eh? i think i should refer you to a few posts back when I was quoting from another message board. The "God of ifakedit.com" ones.

its not about believing about god or not. The pledge is the way it is now because of FEAR. fear of immigrants and communists/athiests.

Why support your own country when it claims to be open to (legal) immigrants, yet puts the phrase "United States of America" in the pledge so foreigners dont think they're pledging to THEIR flag?

Why support your own country when it claims to have "freedom of religion", yet it sticks the phrase "under god" in its pledge to scare off athiests?

I agree, I am at fault for not reading the whole thread, but I already know why it was made that way. Even though it began that way, it has evolved to be respectful.

if thats the case it seems to be selectively respectul.

What a lot of you don't seem to understand is this country WAS founded under a christian God. Freedom of Religion means you do not have to follow that religion, not that religion is removed from the government. I proudly stand for the pledge and Ii proudly say every word. I don't expect you too, but all this about saying it should be changed is a violation of Freedom of Religion itself. The Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves over this Hypocrisy, which is all it is when you get down to it, forcing atheism upon those of faith.While most of the original colonists were christians, the founding fathers actually made great pains to seperate religion from government and your ignorant post does them an injustice. I actually prefer Bellamy's original concept that included the word "equality" along with "liberty and justice". But it was highly controversial in an era that excluded women from voting and still considered most people of color as less than full citizens, so he dropped it. Even as a Catholic, I disaprove of the addition of the words "under God" to the pledge. So the version I find acceptable (and recite) is "I pledge alliegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the country for which it stand, one nation with Liberty, Justice and Equality for all".

i used to be catholic. i disagree with most of the philosophies of that religion, but this is not the thread to discuss it on, really...

however, i respect you for being one of the few non-ignorant christians that have been replying to this thread.

What a lot of you don't seem to understand is this country WAS founded under a christian God. Freedom of Religion means you do not have to follow that religion, not that religion is removed from the government. I proudly stand for the pledge and Ii proudly say every word. I don't expect you too, but all this about saying it should be changed is a violation of Freedom of Religion itself. The Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves over this Hypocrisy, which is all it is when you get down to it, forcing atheism upon those of faith.
the pledge is irrelevant to freedom of religion, and if it was it does not supercede blatant violations of the establishment clause

i used to be catholic. i disagree with most of the philosophies of that religion, but this is not the thread to discuss it on, really...

however, i respect you for being one of the few non-ignorant christians that have been replying to this thread.Well I'm actually a reformed Catholic...I got over it. You know what they say about Catholics, after you put in enough years to get tenure you only have to go to church on Easter and Christmas.

What a lot of you don't seem to understand is this country WAS founded under a christian God. Freedom of Religion means you do not have to follow that religion, not that religion is removed from the government....

are you saying EVERYONE in the government is christian? why dont we just whip out some bibles and base laws off of that?
but hey, im athiest. according to you i would not have to follow that religion, and thus i would be free from those laws.

i love twisting peoples words around.

It's not unpatriotic not to say the pledge. I hated reciting the same line everyday at school for 11 years, but that doesn't mean I don't love my country. From what I've gathered as a student in the 10th grade people hate saying the pledge, but they do it anyway. People in America are getting too touchy about religion these days. I have no problem with the ten commandments being on display in a federal building. Wasn't our country founded on those basic principles?

You better beleive one nation under god.
The only other nation that can claim this is Israel and we are both allies.
the 9th circuits decision was overturned by the Supreme Court.

So we still have under god in our pledge cause whether you like it or not, we are a very religious nation.
We are one nation under God.
if europeans don't like, they can got to hell.
they have no business dictating what America's internal policy should be.
thank god we have real religious freedom in the US of A.
Not that religion is banned from public crap the europeans have.
We all know how the french banned the muslims culture.
there are other examples of the gross lack of religious freedom in europe.

It's not unpatriotic not to say the pledge. I hated reciting the same line everyday at school for 11 years, but that doesn't mean I don't love my country. From what I've gathered as a student in the 10th grade people hate saying the pledge, but they do it anyway. People in America are getting too touchy about religion these days. I have no problem with the ten commandments being on display in a federal building. Wasn't our country founded on those basic principles?
Know what?
I agree with you.
What gets me angry is when people want to ban the pledge cause of the word god. Nothing dumber than that.

We had to sign the Australian anthem at my school. In the mornings. Outside in the freezing cold/boiling heat. Not fun, not a good memory.

And you know what, not *one single person* in my Grade 6 level (after 7 years at that school) could actually reciet the whole thing individually.

I think Terry Pratchett was right; every national anthem has a second verse that goes "hum hum hum mumble hmmm murrrm hum <something about freedom> hurrm mumble hum hum hum <something about the land> hurm hurm mmmmmmurm mumble mutter"

I find it amusing that anyone could think they're having athiesm forced on them. Hello? Earth to jackarse? All we want is the freedom *not to talk about YOUR god, in which we don't believe. By removing references, we don't affect you ability to believe, nor do we infringe on your right to private worship. Making *us* talk about *your* god, however, is a blatant insult to athiests.

Anyway, go read the posts that stated that God is only mentioned to isolate athiests and communists! IE BADNESS. :rolleyes:


Edited to add:
And Whittier- get your fucking facts straight. They outlawed *all* external signs of religion. THAT INCLUDES CROSSES YOU MORON. not just muslims. It was an attempt to put a STOP to religious discrimination (you know, if you can't tell what religion someone is, you can't discrimiante against them because of it). Cheez, did you even bother *reading* about that? Or did you just skim through and pick out the 'facts' you liked, like you do with posts here?

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We had to sign the Australian anthem at my school. In the mornings. Outside in the freezing cold/boiling heat. Not fun, not a good memory.

And you know what, not *one single person* in my Grade 6 level (after 7 years at that school) could actually reciet the whole thing individually.

I think Terry Pratchett was right; every national anthem has a second verse that goes "hum hum hum mumble hmmm murrrm hum <something about freedom> hurrm mumble hum hum hum <something about the land> hurm hurm mmmmmmurm mumble mutter"

I find it amusing that anyone could think they're having athiesm forced on them. Hello? Earth to jackarse? All we want is the freedom *not to talk about YOUR god, in which we don't believe. By removing references, we don't affect you ability to believe, nor do we infringe on your right to private worship. Making *us* talk about *your* god, however, is a blatant insult to athiests.

Anyway, go read the posts that stated that God is only mentioned to isolate athiests and communists! IE BADNESS. :rolleyes:


Edited to add:
And Whittier- get your fucking facts straight. They outlawed *all* external signs of religion. THAT INCLUDES CROSSES YOU MORON. not just muslims. It was an attempt to put a STOP to religious discrimination (you know, if you can't tell what religion someone is, you can't discrimiante against them because of it). Cheez, did you even bother *reading* about that? Or did you just skim through and pick out the 'facts' you liked, like you do with posts here?

hey MORON stop trying to read into my posts shit that's not there.
I used the muslims as an example you knitwit.
when you ban all external signs of religion, you are promoting religious discrimination not stopping it.
that fact is, there is no religious freedom whatever in europe
stupid dumbasses

another thought popped into my mind just now...

how many of your schools set aside time during the day to say the pledge?
Those of you who dont stand- has a teacher ever tried to force you to stand?

isnt it a little outrageous that they FORCE you to stand for something symbolic of freedom??

My theory was that it was best to just stand just to avoid time consuming conflict with teachers, but I rarely said the pledge.

However, when I was a little kid, there was a boy who sat next to me who didn't believe in god, so he never said the pledge, but he was told to stand anyway. One day, he decided to sit, and the teacher went beyond just motioning or telling him to get up, she came over, grabbed his arm, and pulled him to his feet.

The worst part is, I was so misguided at that point that I really thought he was doing something completely wrong. It was several years before I sorted things out and stopped regularly saying the pledge. (I still say it once in a while, just for fun and because I believe that the pledge is okay(well, sort of, there are some parts that I think should be changed) but everyday is just overkill)

Yes, it is completely outrageous.

Whittier-, if you chose appropriate examples (ie, thought before you hit 'reply'), I wouldn't *need* to 'read' into your posts, since their meaning would be, you know, apparent.

You better beleive one nation under god.
The only other nation that can claim this is Israel and we are both allies.

YOUR religion says that. you christians think you're ALL right ALL the time.


So we still have under god in our pledge cause whether you like it or not, we are a very religious nation.
We are one nation under God.
if europeans don't like, they can got to hell.

i am not religious, but i am a part of this nation. just because the MAJORITY of americans are christian doesnt mean the ENITRE nation thinks we are under the same god, or any god at all!


thank god we have real religious freedom in the US of A.

and thank "god" we have freedom of speech so morons like you can impose themselves on others.

Know what?
I agree with you.
What gets me angry is when people want to ban the pledge cause of the word god. Nothing dumber than that.

here we go. a consolidated version of a few of my former posts. read or i'll eat your fucking head off.


1. The Pledge most people recite today is hardly the same as when it was first written. It's not even abridged; it's completely changed and the author and those closest to him haven't approved of any of the changes. I wouldn't teach abridged Shakespeare and most of you wouldn't bother reading it. Why would you recite the Pledge or encourage those that do?

2. The Pledge was most likely forced on you as a child and if it wasn't, you probably didn't know you had a choice in saying it or not. Despite that fact - isn't it enough evidence that making children recite something to which they cannot even pronounce the words, let alone know their meaning, is just a tad tyrannical-cultist? Dare I say.. ludicrous? Don't even think about the children right now.. think about how many people you know that could actually tell you in plain engilsh what the Pledge is all about. Think of people your age.. Think of adults.. Could you do it? Now think of children. Now try to tell me that isn't just fucking SICK. Even if nothing else about the Pledge means anything to you, even if none of the history is real, the fact that we force it on childern, a population of people that we readily acknowledge "cannot make good decisions for themselves" "are easily impressionable" and "need to be taught", should be enough to make you understand that what we do with the Pledge today is unpatriotic.

3. People have tried to pass legislation requiring school children to recite the Pledge. There are laws in place today that require time be set aside for the recital of the Pledge. Isn't it a bit strange that we would require the recital of a piece of literature whose words embody the cocepts of liberty? Isn't it strange that people, children and adults, today think that they are required to pledge their allegiance to a country whose basis for government is to protect the freedoms of its people?

4. If you're a believer in God or multiple gods, one of the key elements of many religions is the ability of man to make decisions for himself. Many religions teach lessons of non-agression as well. Even if you believe in God, shouldn't you protest that people attempt to coerce you and others into reciting such a thing?

5. All the revisions to the Pledge and laws surrounding it are a result of fear. The change "of the United States of America" was based on the fear that immigrants would think they were saying it to their flag and not the flag of the United States. The addition of "under God" was based on the fear of communisim at home and abroad. The attempted passage of laws requiring the recital of the Pledge were based on the fear that if it wasn't ingrained into every child's mind from the moment he or she set foot in school that we would be a nation of unpatriotic and non-nationalist, non-jingoist communists. The laws that hold place today to make sure time is set aside were purely based on the fear that the Supreme Court would rule the Pledge or parts of it unconstitutional. We are a nation of freedoms and liberty - not a nation of tyranny. We are a nation of people that founded their government on liberty and personal responsibility - not a government that makes decisions for its people because they're too afraid to do it for themselves. We speak of patriotism and freedom. "These colors don't run" We speak of undying devotion to country and a fearless race that will die for freedom and liberty for all. Millions of men have died for this cause and you dare to say that forcing the recital of a Pledge with the most unpatriotic and fearful history of any famous document in the United States is patriotic?

because george bush and the christians say so duhhh :rolleyes:


Oh, duh. Can't believe I didn't catch that. Stupid me.

Now, I consider myself a Christian and a patriot. However, I really don't like the pledge.

1) As everyone has stated, the refrence to God was intended to be both Christian and a scare tactic. It is Christian and only Christian, because even though Christians, Muslims, and Jews share the same God we have very different religions and can't agree on a lot.

2) I feel no allegiance to the flag. I don't give a crap if people are burning and pissing on the flag; I don't care. I love my country and not some scrap of fabric.

3) We don't need the pledge. Good God, we already have a national anthem and about 20 other national songs, most of which are much better sounding and display much more appropriatly our ideals as a nation.

On a more personal note, I'm not a religious person, and hold no particular faith. However, when we were in school assemblies, I would say the lord's prayer because it's what we did. Recently, our school has tried to bring in a new version of it, with different words. I would ask anyone religious this question: wouldn't you be offended by that? Somebody tampering with something Jesus allegedly wrote, and thinking that their version is better?


I don't know exactly what the word change they instituted was, but I don't think it would matter much to me, since Christ didn't speak English in the first place (or any of the languages spoken today), so it is all translation. I've heard forgive us our debts and forgive us our tresspasses - they both are probably decently accurate translations so people just kind of pick one.

I don't know exactly what the word change they instituted was, but I don't think it would matter much to me, since Christ didn't speak English in the first place (or any of the languages spoken today), so it is all translation. I've heard forgive us our debts and forgive us our tresspasses - they both are probably decently accurate translations so people just kind of pick one.

his point was that people have changed the pledgeseveral times. would the origional author have wanted that?

2) I feel no allegiance to the flag. I don't give a crap if people are burning and pissing on the flag; I don't care. I love my country and not some scrap of fabric.

haaaaa

Do we even need to pledge ourselves to a flag? Just like religion we have a right in america to do as we wish (kinda). and if we donmt want to give ourselves to a piece of cloth then so be it.

I'm not a religious person, but I claim catholicism as my religion. As I said before, i hated standing and saying the pledge, but I did it anyway. every morning at 8:45 we would say it. Even if they take the "under God" part out someone is still going to complain that they don't feel it is right to say the pledge because they are not a citizen of this country. I'll leave you with this phrase.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do as long as it is not under god"
:headbang:

... This post scares me...

And i did day i didnt aporve of under god part ":P.
Your grammar scares me.

Do we even need to pledge ourselves to a flag? Just like religion we have a right in america to do as we wish (kinda). and if we donmt want to give ourselves to a piece of cloth then so be it.
Don't you ever stop to think? The flag is more than just some piece of cloth. The flag represents everything that is America. Especially freedom, as in the freedom to not say the Pledge, if you don't want to.

Don't you ever stop to think? The flag is more than just some piece of cloth. The flag represents everything that is America. Especially freedom, as in the freedom to not say the Pledge, if you don't want to.

freedom of religion too.

and so what if it represents america? i think it would make more sense to pledge ourselves to america, not a peice of cloth... however tyrannical that may be.. the point is, they cant force us to stand, and they definitely cant force us to pledge ourselves to something under a god we dont believe in.

here we go. a consolidated version of a few of my former posts. read or i'll eat your fucking head off.
children don't have the same right to protest that adults have.

and why not? arent they all citizens of the usa? there is not age limit to most freedom. especially freedom of protest.

if you're claiming they dont know enough, thats the parents faults for not telling them.

I don't care if the phrase "Under God" was added to the Pledge to hurt communism. I care what the phrase means to me as a person with my particular value system. I believe that God is looking down on our nation, looking out for all of us.

You can interpret the Pledge however you want--that's just me.

And to people who don't believe in any form of God, nobody is forcing you to say the pledge [and by all means, if someone is, I encourage you to slap them with a fat lawsuit]

i think it would make more sense to pledge ourselves to america, not a peice of cloth...

When you pledge allegiance to the flag, you are pledging yourself to the country it represents...You can be overly critical and break it down to just a piece of fabric, but to people who really care, it's much more than that.

And to people who don't believe in any form of God, nobody is forcing you to say the pledge [and by all means, if someone is, I encourage you to slap them with a fat lawsuit]


oh i will. or at least refuse to say it. no matter how many of those in higher authority i have to beat the law into their thick skulls.