NationStates Jolt Archive

Just the counter-point to the "Atheists are stupid." thread. The founder of that thread admitted that there is no way to prove or disprove God's existence, so atheists are just as, if not more stupid than theists. I however do disagree with this point because atheists, unlike theists, don't make decisions based off something that can't be proven or disproven. They make decisions based off logic and real things that can really be proven. As Bill Maher put it, we have those who follow the compass, that works the same way everytime, by laws of science and logic, and the people who smash open a chicken and read its entrails.

Just the counter-point to the "Atheists are stupid." thread. The founder of that thread admitted that there is no way to prove or disprove God's existence, so atheists are just as, if not more stupid than theists. I however do disagree with this point because atheists, unlike theists, don't make decisions based off something that can't be proven or disproven. They make decisions based off logic and real things that can really be proven. As Bill Maher put it, we have those who follow the compass, that works the same way everytime, by laws of science and logic, and the people who smash open a chicken and read its entrails.INteresting use of sarcasm in your title.

Don't pour gasoline on a fire...

I'm glad I'm agnostic then.

Don't pour gasoline on a fire...Yeah. That's just retarded.

INteresting use of sarcasm in your title.
Huh?

Huh?
You used a similar title to his.
Unless you actually are saying that all theists are stupid.

You used a similar title to his.
Unless you actually are saying that all theists are stupid.
Some are. And I've mocked people's titles before. I'm not being original. I'm replicating myself. For instance, when the "Radical atheists stuff views down people's throats" or whatever thread came up, I changed "atheists" to "Christians" and started a new thread...

EDIT: Changed "most" to "some"

Most are. And I've mocked people's titles before. I'm not being original. I'm replicating myself. For instance, when the "Radical atheists stuff views down people's throats" or whatever thread came up, I changed "atheists" to "Christians" and started a new thread...When ever you do that we see your creativity shine.

When ever you do that we see your creativity shine.
I'm just gonna be mad when people besides me start copying me.

I still say the burden of proof falls on the Theists to prove God. Until they do (IE- Never), I'm confortable not believing in their God by logical grounds, let alone moral and ethical issues I have with Him.

I think that the morals of Christianity are mostly good, therefore, I've taken them and made them my own. For my it's merely a question of whether or not I want to believe in that God...or any God for that matter...

..and I really do mean I made them my own. I have much higher moral standards than most Christians that I know.

Just the counter-point to the "Atheists are stupid." thread. The founder of that thread admitted that there is no way to prove or disprove God's existence, so atheists are just as, if not more stupid than theists. I however do disagree with this point because atheists, unlike theists, don't make decisions based off something that can't be proven or disproven. They make decisions based off logic and real things that can really be proven. As Bill Maher put it, we have those who follow the compass, that works the same way everytime, by laws of science and logic, and the people who smash open a chicken and read its entrails.

But people weren't born with inherant knowledge of the compass. Trial and error and exploration and inspiration led to the knowledge. Who's to say that the same process isn't even now at work in theism?

I still say the burden of proof falls on the Theists to prove God. Until they do (IE- Never), I'm confortable not believing in their God by logical grounds, let alone moral and ethical issues I have with Him.

What do you want as proof? What proof could anyone ever offer you that you would believe? God isn't a light show. It's not a trick. It's a journey that everyone makes on their own and everyone calls by a different name. I have no desire to prove to you that my God exists, I'm too busy exploring the possibility for myself. You have to find your own proof if you're interested. If not, then it's not an issue, and that's all right too.

But people weren't born with inherant knowledge of the compass. Trial and error and exploration and inspiration led to the knowledge. Who's to say that the same process isn't even now at work in theism?
People are working on proving God?

The compass was accidentily discovered...

What do you want as proof? What proof could anyone ever offer you that you would believe? God isn't a light show. It's not a trick. It's a journey that everyone makes on their own and everyone calls by a different name. I have no desire to prove to you that my God exists, I'm too busy exploring the possibility for myself. You have to find your own proof if you're interested. If not, then it's not an issue, and that's all right too.
I'm pretty sure you can't prove that God exists because it is something that is meant to be taken on faith, however, as long as you aren't making radically ignorant decisions (...stem cell research...Jews get Israel...) based solely on your religious beliefs, you're fine.

It is impossible to make people believe what you want them to. You can hold a gun to their head and make them say they believe or disbelieve, but that is not valid proof that they do.

It is impossible to make people believe what you want them to. You can hold a gun to their head and make them say they believe or disbelieve, but that is not valid proof that they do.
Thanks for the somewhat random comment from the peanut gallery, no matter how wrong it is...

I'm pretty sure you can't prove that God exists because it is something that is meant to be taken on faith, however, as long as you aren't making radically ignorant decisions (...stem cell research...Jews get Israel...) based solely on your religious beliefs, you're fine.

Well, um, thanks for your permission to act upon my instincts.

I posted a syllogism for the question of proof or "God as an empty set" in the thread on atheists (and stupidity was never beaten back by stupidity, at best, all you can hope for is a standstill). It's too late to repost it here. To sum it up, there is no universal proof for this question, only personal proof and no one can ever provide someone else with personal proof. So, no one ever has a right to say their Gods are the only, but on the other hand, no one ever has a right to say there are no Gods.

And the idea that Jews should get Israel is just insane period, regardless of religious or corporeal rationale.

What do you want as proof? What proof could anyone ever offer you that you would believe? God isn't a light show. It's not a trick. It's a journey that everyone makes on their own and everyone calls by a different name. I have no desire to prove to you that my God exists, I'm too busy exploring the possibility for myself. You have to find your own proof if you're interested. If not, then it's not an issue, and that's all right too.

Of course, that's the devious part. Since they have burden of proof and can't prove God, and I have Occam's Razor as a secondary weapon, I can truthfully say to myself it is logical to believe in no higher power without evidence.

Well, um, thanks for your permission to act upon my instincts.

I posted a syllogism for the question of proof or "God as an empty set" in the thread on atheists (and stupidity was never beaten back by stupidity, at best, all you can hope for is a standstill). It's too late to repost it here. To sum it up, there is no universal proof for this question, only personal proof and no one can ever provide someone else with personal proof. So, no one ever has a right to say their Gods are the only, but on the other hand, no one ever has a right to say there are no Gods.

And the idea that Jews should get Israel is just insane period, regardless of religious or corporeal rationale.
I think that you can believe there is no God...

I think that you can believe there is no God...

I completely agree. In fact, as several athiests on this board have pointed out, to make the statement, "There Is No God," requires just as much active belief as the statement, "There Is A God," and the only people who are getting out of this are the agnostics who say, "There May Be A God Or There May Not, But Since He's Unknowable In Any Real Way, I'm Not Going To Believe Either Way At This Time, Now Who Want's Cake?" One can also believe in a whole host of metaphysical ideas without embracing thesim of any sort.

The fascinating thing here, though, is the common thread of belief. Humans do it. All of them. Even if it's only a belief in themselves or the common potentiality of mankind.

Thanks for the somewhat random comment from the peanut gallery, no matter how wrong it is...
Like I said before, you think it is wrong, but that doesn't mean it isnt.

So you think you can force believe the way you want them to?

Of course, that's the devious part. Since they have burden of proof and can't prove God, and I have Occam's Razor as a secondary weapon, I can truthfully say to myself it is logical to believe in no higher power without evidence.

Again, I'll point to my posts on the atheist thread to answer this. I've got evidence for me, but I can never provide evidence for you, nor should I try. I don't want to "force" my theism on you just as I don't want you to "force" your atheism on me. Belief through force isn't belief, it's tyrrany. So I'm not interested in "arguing" with you or "proving" anything to you because both of those are pointless. I'm interested in sharing and deepening my understanding of the power of human belief as well as my understanding of humans in general and, by so doing, deepening my understanding of myself and what I feel is a personal relationship with a deeply personal God.

So you think you can force believe the way you want them to?
It happens all the time. When little kids are growing up, if they aren't taught anything but Christianity, it is what they believe, whether or not they like it. They never had the oppurtunity for any other belief. If you deny the knowledge of other options to a person, then you force them to believe what ever option you present to them. Of course, this won't work for someone who has been exposed to the options, but for someone who hasn't it works excellently. It's kind of like in this country we used to think that slavery and discrimination were acceptable, but then we were showed that blacks are people too, just like us, then when we had this option to choose on belief or the other, most picked the second one, but some still believe the first option...

It happens all the time. When little kids are growing up, if they aren't taught anything but Christianity, it is what they believe, whether or not they like it. They never had the oppurtunity for any other belief. If you deny the knowledge of other options to a person, then you force them to believe what ever option you present to them. Of course, this won't work for someone who has been exposed to the options, but for someone who hasn't it works excellently. It's kind of like in this country we used to think that slavery and discrimination were acceptable, but then we were showed that blacks are people too, just like us, then when we had this option to choose on belief or the other, most picked the second one, but some still believe the first option...
Even if this is true, which for most families it isn't, you still have the chance to pick your own beliefs when you are an adult. But even activist christians start letting their children explore different beliefs once they reach the reasonable age of 16.

Whittier, what do you have to say about the fact that you said f a person supports gay marriage and abortion, they are not Christians?

My mother is a member of the Presbyterian Church and supports equal rights for Gays and has a neutral but permissable position on Abortion (IE- The "I think it's gross and I'd never do it but some might need/want to so they should be able to" position). I think she'd be quite suprised to learn that by your all powerful ruling, she stopped being a Christian abruptly. [/Light_Sarcasm]

Even if this is true, which for most families it isn't, you still have the chance to pick your own beliefs when you are an adult. But even activist christians start letting their children explore different beliefs once they reach the reasonable age of 16.
By age 16 some people won't be turning back...besides, what is wrong with letting a kid explore all the options at say...5 years old...why should the answer to a little kid's questions always be "Because God this" or "Because God that"?

Never involve yourself in a religion that starts off by having two nudists taking dietary advice from a talking snake.

Never involve yourself in a religion that starts off by having two nudists taking dietary advice from a talking snake.
And that is just about as good as the word of God because that is a Squatches post...

And that is just about as good as the word of God because that is a Squatches post...


Amen brotha!

Amen brotha!
No...Oh no you didn't...you did NOT just call me "brotha"... I keeps it real foo... I KEEPS IT REAL...
haha, just kidding...

By age 16 some people won't be turning back...besides, what is wrong with letting a kid explore all the options at say...5 years old...why should the answer to a little kid's questions always be "Because God this" or "Because God that"?
because kids are not capable of rational thought.

Whittier, what do you have to say about the fact that you said f a person supports gay marriage and abortion, they are not Christians?

My mother is a member of the Presbyterian Church and supports equal rights for Gays and has a neutral but permissable position on Abortion (IE- The "I think it's gross and I'd never do it but some might need/want to so they should be able to" position). I think she'd be quite suprised to learn that by your all powerful ruling, she stopped being a Christian abruptly. [/Light_Sarcasm]
That's what I said and that's what I mean.
Your mom needs to get born again.

because kids are not capable of rational thought.
Neither are some adults. Who are we to say when they become capable of rational thought? And even if they aren't, who are we to say they can't have the option? People who aren't capable of rational thought have the option...

That's what I said and that's what I mean.
Your mom needs to get born again.


You need to come down off the cross.
We need the wood for the fire.

You need to come down off the cross.
We need the wood for the fire.
We can burn him with it?

Neither are some adults. Who are we to say when they become capable of rational thought? And even if they aren't, who are we to say they can't have the option? People who aren't capable of rational thought have the option...
most people become capable of rational thought at age 8.

most people become capable of rational thought at age 8.
Then let them at least start deciding by then, but you still don't explain how it is our right to limit a child's options. When I have kids, I won't promote any one thing over another. When you teach a child nothing but Christianity, then they have a hard time trying to question it and they especially don't want to talk to their parents about it because their parents have held their nose down to Christianity for as long as they can remember. Most kids don't like disrespecting their parents.

By the way, I don't know if this counts as a flame or not...but it is people like Whittier- that explain the feeling I have toward Theists.

Then let them at least start deciding by then, but you still don't explain how it is our right to limit a child's options. When I have kids, I won't promote any one thing over another. When you teach a child nothing but Christianity, then they have a hard time trying to question it and they especially don't want to talk to their parents about it because their parents have held their nose down to Christianity for as long as they can remember. Most kids don't like disrespecting their parents.
there is this little thing we in america call parental rights. It is the right of the parents to decide what is in the best interest of the child.

there is this little thing we in america call parental rights. It is the right of the parents to decide what is in the best interest of the child.
I know parents have the right to do that legally, but I don't think it is correct to only show your child one option...whether parents have a right or not is not the issue I'm talking about.

I know parents have the right to do that legally, but I don't think it is correct to only show your child one option...whether parents have a right or not is not the issue I'm talking about.
It's the fact that theists are so afraid of the alternative...that's the part I don't like about them...

It's the fact that theists are so afraid of the alternative...that's the part I don't like about them...
if you want to expose your children to different faiths or no faiths when they are young, that is your right, just as it is their right to expose their children only to christianity.
And your mind does become set until your 40's.

I am not afraid of the alternative.
If there is no god, then if I die, I cease to exist. That's that. I won't feel anything. I won't be aware of anything.

Whittier-, is your real name "Whit"? If so, I think I know you. Otherwise, you do realize that the "Whittier" that I think you are thinking about is really spelled "wittier" as the word "whit" means smallest speck.

Whittier-, is your real name "Whit"? If so, I think I know you. Otherwise, you do realize that the "Whittier" that I think you are thinking about is really spelled "wittier" as the word "whit" means smallest speck.
nah, whittier is a city. There's a whittier in california and a whittier in alaska.
How about we agree to disagree.

I named it after my hometown.

<-- I'm a pimp.