NationStates Jolt Archive

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might no be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.

then way wasn't the title of your thread "atheists and theists are stupid" why are you targetting one group who believes one thing without real basis and not the other?

Firstly, I am not an Atheist, I am a Gnostic Christian.

Secondly, if believing in something based on a hypothesis, which is per definition a form of reasoned argument, how smart is it to believe in something because of a dogma, which is a body of beliefs that someone has told you are true and that you must believe without reason at all?

God is based on blind faith. You don't need, or shouldn't need, any proof whatsoever to convince you He exists. You are simply meant to believe in Him.

With science, we run experiments. We hunt for clues. We infer, we extrapolate. We don't always have direct, indisputable proof of everything. But we base our hypothesis on facts, things we can see with our own eyes.

On the other hand, religious hypothesis are based largely on 'pure' faith, without the need for facts.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might no be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.

Hmmm...you sure as hell sound like a christian with the "now try to prove me wrong"...atheists are not stupid. People who believe in god, have no evidence that he does exist. Neither do atheists, so they have no reason to beleive in god. Because there is no scientific reason to do so...but if there were undeniable evidence that god exist (which there never will be) and they still didn't beleive god exists, then they would be pretty stupid.

I myself sit on the edge of agnostic, and atheist.

Okay... let's prove it once and for all...

Okay 'God', your turn to post.... this is your chance, prove you exist....

come on, i dare you...

no reply?

*Yawn*

It takes a lot less faith to believe something doesn't exist, than to believe it does, when its existence is not apparent. And faith is stupid, regardless of the context in which it is employed.

Also, I don't know about the relative intelligence of Christians and Atheists, but both are generally less stupid than trolls.

Couldn't agree more. Well I could, I don't think theists and atheists are stupid, just approach the subject from the wrong angle.

Let's see

Athiests are stupid
Religious people are stupid.

Why don't you just practice KISS and say People are stupid?

Atheists aren't suppose to prove if God doesn't exist. Christians are suppose to prove his does exist. You made him up. You prove it.

Atheism is not dedicated to disproving the presence of some deity. It is a lack of religion. Either way you have called yourself stupid, which makes me wonder why you bothered to post this thread. Dumbass. :sniper:

Okay... let's prove it once and for all...

Okay 'God', your turn to post.... this is your chance, prove you exist....

come on, i dare you...

no reply?

Try that in prayer, with a mind and heart that could actually be defined as open. You might be surprised.

Let's see

Religious people are stupid.



I'd have to disagree slightly. Organized religion is stupid, because why do we need some money grubbing man in a robe to tell us God exists and loves us? I certianly don't see the need.

I believe in God through and through, but I worship him on my own terms, not some church's.

God does not want us to come to him just because he proved he existed. He doesn't work that way. He wants us to come of our own free-will, totally and completely. If we didn't, then there would be no point in free-will. Free-will is why we are an unbelieving people to begin with. I mean come on, how many of you people have done the exact opposite of what was good for you just to make somebody mad at you? In other words, God doesn't have to prove he exists as long as people are open to the truth. And I don't believe anybody is stupid for what they believe in, whether or not it is Christianity. People should be respected for what they believe in, and yes, I believe that atheism is a religion all on its own. You have to believe nothing is out there.

I said that atheists are stupid instead of calling both them and Christians stupid because Christians are always being called dumb. Atheists beliefs are hardly ever attacked. Eridanus I sure must be a Christian if i said you can't prove that God exists. Vagari when you believe that something does not exist with no proof your putting faith into that belief. New Foxxinnia nice sentence fragments you sure sounded intelligent there. Atheists are supposed to prove that God doesn't exist because if they cannot they are putting blind faith into a belief that has no grounds. Quox nice use of profanity that made you sound intelligent. How am I calling myself a dumbass?

Try that in prayer, with a mind and heart that could actually be defined as open. You might be surprised.

Thank you for your expression of concern... or should i say for attempting to patronise me....

"poor little godless heathen, let's see if we can save him"

The problem here is that you assume I haven't already been 'saved'.

But, once I matured enough to start understanding the world around me, I grew out of it.

Try that in prayer, with a mind and heart that could actually be defined as open. You might be surprised.

i remember trying that when i still kind of thought that the christian god might exist. and i didn't get any answer...

hmm... funny how you think this god would change someone from all the way against belief to believing, but ignore someone who wants to believe but can't make complete sense of it... i mean, everyone else had already done half the work...

God does not want us to come to him just because he proved he existed. He doesn't work that way. He wants us to come of our own free-will, totally and completely. If we didn't, then there would be no point in free-will. Free-will is why we are an unbelieving people to begin with. I mean come on, how many of you people have done the exact opposite of what was good for you just to make somebody mad at you? In other words, God doesn't have to prove he exists as long as people are open to the truth. And I don't believe anybody is stupid for what they believe in, whether or not it is Christianity. People should be respected for what they believe in, and yes, I believe that atheism is a religion all on its own. You have to believe nothing is out there.

Just looked up Religion in the dictionary. Sorry, atheism is not a religion.

Vagari when you believe that something does not exist with no proof your putting faith into that belief.

Well, like I said, it doesn't take much faith, if the thing that you don't believe in is not apparent. It is easy to believe in the existence of chairs, because I've seen them, and I am in fact sitting on one. On the other hand, it is not so easy to believe in God, because I have never seen him, or for that matter, sat on him.

I said that atheists are stupid instead of calling both them and Christians stupid because Christians are always being called dumb. Atheists beliefs are hardly ever attacked.

hahahahahahahahaha!

i'm not even an atheist and i've noticed how much crap they have to take.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might no be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.
it is not the atheists job to prove god does not exist, it is the christians job to prove he xists, they are making a positive assertion, its called "burden of proof"

Well, like I said, it doesn't take much faith, if the thing that you don't believe in is not apparent. It is easy to believe in the existence of chairs, because I've seen them, and I am in fact sitting on one. On the other hand, it is not so easy to believe in God, because I have never seen him, or for that matter, sat on him.

unless the chair is god!


dun dun dun!


*worships chair*

I have never seen the wind, but I have seen the affects of the wind. If God does not exist, then how has His religion survived the ages?

i remember trying that when i still kind of thought that the christian god might exist. and i didn't get any answer...

hmm... funny how you think this god would change someone from all the way against belief to believing, but ignore someone who wants to believe but can't make complete sense of it... i mean, everyone else had already done half the work...

That's because of your insistance of trying to make God conform to human reason.

christians are stupid! by the way, there r 164 references 2 horses in the bible!


we should just do our own religion made of all the god bits in other religions!!

*ME= :gundge: :cool: :) ;) :D :p :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :eek: *

unless the chair is god!


dun dun dun!


*worships chair*

If God is a seating arrangement, then I reckon he's a stool. :D

Thank you for your expression of concern... or should i say for attempting to patronise me....

"poor little godless heathen, let's see if we can save him"

The problem here is that you assume I haven't already been 'saved'.

But, once I matured enough to start understanding the world around me, I grew out of it.

Who said anything about being "saved"?

I said that atheists are stupid instead of calling both them and Christians stupid because Christians are always being called dumb. Atheists beliefs are hardly ever attacked. Eridanus I sure must be a Christian if i said you can't prove that God exists. Vagari when you believe that something does not exist with no proof your putting faith into that belief. New Foxxinnia nice sentence fragments you sure sounded intelligent there. Atheists are supposed to prove that God doesn't exist because if they cannot they are putting blind faith into a belief that has no grounds. Quox nice use of profanity that made you sound intelligent. How am I calling myself a dumbass?

Most atheist don't go out of their way trying to disprove gods existance they just take it for granted that he doesn't exist, and move on with their lifes, and don't get hung up on it. It's jsut a "oh whatever" kind of way of thinking, which is the way I think the subject of god should be. It's no use argueing over, stupid (you called yourself that, btw).

That's because of your insistance of trying to make God conform to human reason.


That is indeed a rampant problem on this website.

I have never seen the wind, but I have seen the affects of the wind. If God does not exist, then how has His religion survived the ages?
that was so stupid i assume it was a joke question and will not respond

A few comments. (And I AM an Atheist, so neener. :p )

"Atheism is not dedicated to disproving the presence of some deity. It is a lack of religion."

This is incorrect. Nihilism is a lack of religion. Atheism simply means that the person does not believe there is a higher power. That does not mean that an Atheist does not believe in SOMETHING, just not a God or any form of higher consciousness.

Nihilism is a lack of religion, it is a strong belief in a whole lot of not a damn thing. ;)


Moving on: As an Atheist, I have no reason to prove to you there is no God, nor would I be able to, and as a Theist, you have no reason to prove to me there IS a God, nor would you be able to. The point is moot. It is what I believe, it is what I decided after a significant amount of thought on the subject.

I was once told by someone that "You obviously didn't put a lot of thought into it if you don't believe in God." Well, that's a crock. It takes no less intellect nor faith to decide that God does not exist, than to decide that he does. It's no easier a decision to come to than to say "There is a God! Huzzah!" It requires a lot of soul-searching.

Atheists have to put up with having God shoved in their face EVERY SINGLE DAY, by every religion out there. The VAST majority of us, myself included, just shut up and ignore it. It's not our business what YOU believe, nor is it YOUR business what WE believe.

The problem is, just like any other group, Christians, Muslims, the Police Force, what have you, the bad apples, like the stupid jackass that tried (and is trying) to sue to get "Under God" removed from the pledge (like anyone really cares, you don't HAVE to say those words and the pledge means the same thing. Show some common sense, you tools.) are the ones everyone sees, and are always the loudest and most obnoxious.

Blanket statements are stupid. They're usually wrong, and inherently false.

Me.

That is indeed a rampant problem on this website.

indeed :)

That's because of your insistance of trying to make God conform to human reason.

well, according to you guys, god gave us our reasoning skills and made us in his/her image, therefore, it would only make sense that this diety would give us a similar method for reasoning.

i mean, you guys assign your god human emotions, so why not human logic?


If God is a seating arrangement, then I reckon he's a stool. :D

interesting. i would actually say one of those huge plush chairs, the kind that have the huge arm rests that are so wonderful to just curl up and read in...

well, according to you guys, god gave us our reasoning skills and made us in his/her image, therefore, it would only make sense that this diety would give us a similar method for reasoning.

i mean, you guys assign your god human emotions, so why not human logic?

"Us" guys? No, sorry. And God did give us many faculties, of which reason is only one.

I have never seen the wind, but I have seen the affects of the wind. If God does not exist, then how has His religion survived the ages?

Corny...corny...corny. It still exists becuase people choose to believe it (and when you say 'his religion' don't you mean "religions"?)...that I think about it...that line didn't make any sense at all.

I have never seen the wind, but I have seen the affects of the wind. If God does not exist, then how has His religion survived the ages?

hindhuism has been around longer. if brahmin, shiva and vishnu do not exist, how has their religion survived the ages?

and the effects of the wind can actually be detected, measured empirically and even harnessed (ever hear of windmills) your "point" is rather pointless and overdone.

"Us" guys? No, sorry. And God did give us many faculties, of which reason is only one.

what? so christians don't believe that god made people in his/her image?

they don't believe that god has emotions? jelousy? "your god is a jelous god" love? wrath? et c.

the founders of your religion assigned the deity you revere with such human emotions, not me.

Chess Squares it is the job of atheists to prove God does not exist because if they cannot they are putting faith into a belief that has no grounds. Grave_n_idle how could you not know that atheism is not a religion? Thats just pure idiocy. Everyone give Druthulhu a good clap of hands for being smarter than the rest. Vagari you would not be able to sit on god or see him if he existed. Eridanus said "Most atheist don't go out of their way trying to disprove gods existance they just take it for granted that he doesn't exist"
So what your saying is atheists put blind faith into a belief that god does not exist without understanding why they beleive that. I know atheism is denying the existence of God. My question is why do you deny it so blindly. No one has given a reason as to why God does not exist.

what? so christians don't believe that god made people in his/her image?

they don't believe that god has emotions? jelousy? "your god is a jelous god" love? wrath? et c.

the founders of your religion assigned the deity you revere with such human emotions, not me.

Before you make any further assumptions about my religion, go back and read my first post in this thread, please.

A few comments. (And I AM an Atheist, so neener. :p )

"Atheism is not dedicated to disproving the presence of some deity. It is a lack of religion."

This is incorrect. Nihilism is a lack of religion. Atheism simply means that the person does not believe there is a higher power. That does not mean that an Atheist does not believe in SOMETHING, just not a God or any form of higher consciousness.

Nihilism is a lack of religion, it is a strong belief in a whole lot of not a damn thing. ;)


Moving on: As an Atheist, I have no reason to prove to you there is no God, nor would I be able to, and as a Theist, you have no reason to prove to me there IS a God, nor would you be able to. The point is moot. It is what I believe, it is what I decided after a significant amount of thought on the subject.

I was once told by someone that "You obviously didn't put a lot of thought into it if you don't believe in God." Well, that's a crock. It takes no less intellect nor faith to decide that God does not exist, than to decide that he does. It's no easier a decision to come to than to say "There is a God! Huzzah!" It requires a lot of soul-searching.

Atheists have to put up with having God shoved in their face EVERY SINGLE DAY, by every religion out there. The VAST majority of us, myself included, just shut up and ignore it. It's not our business what YOU believe, nor is it YOUR business what WE believe.

The problem is, just like any other group, Christians, Muslims, the Police Force, what have you, the bad apples, like the stupid jackass that tried (and is trying) to sue to get "Under God" removed from the pledge (like anyone really cares, you don't HAVE to say those words and the pledge means the same thing. Show some common sense, you tools.) are the ones everyone sees, and are always the loudest and most obnoxious.

Blanket statements are stupid. They're usually wrong, and inherently false.

Me.

My thoughts exactlly, you deserve applause *clap clap clap*

I don't believe in any specific deity, although sometimes I wonder if there is some driving force behind the wonders of nature. I think that Jebus and his 12 sisters is a mostly a bunch of crap. He might have even existed but he was just a normal, persuasive guy running a cult.

But I have morals, I don't hurt people or animals (I did torch some ants when I was a kid, but nowadays I even wave at flies so they get out through a window or a door), I never stole anything or hurt others on purpose.

Am I a stupid atheist? Who do you consider the biggest sinner, the church going, greedy, hateful, racist pig or the kind, conscious atheist that refrains from hurting people?

Organized religion is for those that can't think of what is right or wrong by themselves. And it's a way to make money too (just look at the amount of televangelism filth going around, how do you think they get the money to buy tv channels?).

hindhuism has been around longer. if brahmin, shiva and vishnu do not exist, how has their religion survived the ages?

and the effects of the wind can actually be detected, measured empirically and even harnessed (ever hear of windmills) your "point" is rather pointless and overdone.


Almost every religion describes their God in a strikingly similar manner, therefore one could assume that it is the same God being called a different name. Almost every religion also shares the exact same values and beliefs, although some of the details may differ ever so slightly.

Before you make any further assumptions about my religion, go back and read my first post in this thread, please.

so gnostic christians ignore the bible?

Chess Squares it is the job of atheists to prove God does not exist because if they cannot they are putting faith into a belief that has no grounds. Grave_n_idle how could you not know that atheism is not a religion? Thats just pure idiocy. Everyone give Druthulhu a good clap of hands for being smarter than the rest. Vagari you would not be able to sit on god or see him if he existed. Eridanus said "Most atheist don't go out of their way trying to disprove gods existance they just take it for granted that he doesn't exist"
So what your saying is atheists put blind faith into a belief that god does not exist without understanding why they beleive that. I know atheism is denying the existence of God. My question is why do you deny it so blindly. No one has given a reason as to why God does not exist.

No, I'm saying that we just don't care. That's what I meant. We simply don't care. No faith involved. I simply could care less. That's all...really...

I am glad that I am so popular.

I am talking about actually seeing it with your own eyes. Nobody can say that they have, and yet they believe it is there. I have never seen God either, but I believe he is there. And you are right, It is none of my business whether you believe or not, but it is my business to give you the chance. So there you go.

Chess Squares it is the job of atheists to prove God does not exist because if they cannot they are putting faith into a belief that has no grounds. Grave_n_idle how could you not know that atheism is not a religion? Thats just pure idiocy. Everyone give Druthulhu a good clap of hands for being smarter than the rest. Vagari you would not be able to sit on god or see him if he existed. Eridanus said "Most atheist don't go out of their way trying to disprove gods existance they just take it for granted that he doesn't exist"
So what your saying is atheists put blind faith into a belief that god does not exist without understanding why they beleive that. I know atheism is denying the existence of God. My question is why do you deny it so blindly. No one has given a reason as to why God does not exist.
IT IS NOT THE ATHEIST'S JOB, THEY ARE NOT NOT MAKING A POSITIVE ASSERTION. it is the christians job to prove they are right. atheism is and of itself is NOT a religion, it CAN be INCORPORATED into a religion, ie buddhism.
no whats hes saying is atheists dont put blind faith into something with no proof that it exists. ahteism denies the existance of ANY god.


GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF HE EXISTS, UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE SOME STFU

My question is why do you deny it so blindly. No one has given a reason as to why God does not exist.

My belief that God doesn't exist, is just as unfounded as my belief that Cthulhu hasn't risen to devour mankind, and my belief that gnomes aren't living in my sock drawer. I'm denying those blindly as well.

Almost every religion describes their God in a strikingly similar manner, therefore one could assume that it is the same God being called a different name. Almost every religion also shares the exact same values and beliefs, although some of the details may differ ever so slightly.

not really.

for instance in the aforementioned example of hindhuism, each main god has one function: vishnu creates, brahmin preserves, shiva destroys. they're not really much at all like the christian diety. in the hindhu system, you don't go to heaven for believing it or hell for not believing it. you are reborn based on your acts in the life. in christianity, you could be a very good person, but be a hindhu and go to hell. in hindhuism, you could be a very good christian and get reborn into a better position in your next life.
a number of pagan religions bear little to no resemblance to christianity nor do their gods.
the only religions that have very similar gods to the christian one are the abrahamic religions and zoroastrianism... of course zoroastrainism seems to be what the abrahamic religions are based on.

so gnostic christians ignore the bible?

...aaahhh... let's just say that Gnostics have never had a very high opinion of the Nicean Council, which authorized Jerome's compilation of the Latin Vulgate... so... let's just say not necassarily their Bible.

Also the common thread among all Gnostic sects is the belief in Gnosis, personal spiritual experience which cannot be communicated by words, as taking precidence over dogma.

not really.

for instance in the aforementioned example of hindhuism, each main god has one function: vishnu creates, brahmin preserves, shiva destroys.


And how is that not similar to: God creates, The Holy Spirit preserves, and the Angel of Death destroys.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you what you say is rubbish, this is just my opinion.

Athiests don't believe in god. So doesn't that mean they have no belief to believe in?

You can't prove that god exists, yet you can't prove he can... but if there was a god, how do you not know that whatever it is is one of millions or billions all believing in another "god" that may have created them and so on and so on....

the bottom line is... you don't know anything like that till life's over...

it's all about beliefs...

no-one is stupid because of what they believe in... you saying that Athiests are stupid is just making people just as annoyed as you when people say Christians are stupid

(I am Athiest btw... Personally i'm gonna wait and see what happens... If i end up believing in something - fine, if i don't and in the end there is a god/gods/karma/nirvana/, that's my fault)

well, in the christian example there is only one god. in the hindhu example, there are many gods. shiva, vishnu and brahmin are just the most important and are worshipped everywhere rather than locally.

GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF HE EXISTS, UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE SOME STFU

GOD DOES EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF HE DOES NOT EXIST, UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE SOME STFU

Really, all you're doing with crap like that is proving that both sides lack reason and tolerance.

GOD DOES EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF HE DOES NOT EXIST, UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE SOME STFU

Really, all you're doing with crap like that is proving that both sides lack reason and tolerance.


ok lets try this


the standing proof for gods existance is the bible, the bible is fallible either through contradicting itself or contradicitng known science, thus there is no standing unquestionable proof of god's existance


care to come again?


edit: and whats more is the positive assertion is the assertion that must be proven, not the negative one.

well, in the christian example there is only one god. in the hindhu example, there are many gods. shiva, vishnu and brahmin are just the most important and are worshipped everywhere rather than locally.

Brahma Shiva and Vishnu are, with their Shakti (female halves), the only ones that Hindus call "God". They form a trinity which is considered to be the God that encompasses everything, Mahavishnu.

Automagfreek you are correct in your assumption. All religions are speaking of the same God but with a different name. Tribal Ecology Jesus did not run a cult. You obvioulsy do not understand the difference between a religion and a cult. Cults are an extremist religious sect that have followers that live in an unconventional manner. Yes Tribal Ecology you are a stupid atheist because you have not given me a reason as to why you have those beliefs. Your beliefs are based on nothing but blind faith. I know both sides lack reason or tolerance of each other thats why its so much fun to make them argue. Well how can there be more than one God? God is infinite wouldn't that make him everything? If there was more than one God than that God would not be infinite effectively making it not God.

As an atheist, I will agree with several logical people here: the burden of proof lies on those making a positive assertion. You claim that God exists, then prove it. We simply claim that god(s) don't exist, your lack of proof is proof enough of that assertion. Modern science has shown that there is no need for any supernatural occurences, and hence their involvement only would complicate and confuse the perfectly satisfactory universe in which we live. Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is (usually) the most valid. Since supernatural beings complicate explanations beyond their simplest form, they most likely do not exist.


...I'm done.

Automagfreek you are correct in your assumption. All religions are speaking of the same God but with a different name. Tribal Ecology Jesus did not run a cult. You obvioulsy do not understand the difference between a religion and a cult. Cults are an extremist religious sect that have followers that live in an unconventional manner. Yes Tribal Ecology you are a stupid atheist because you have not given me a reason as to why you have those beliefs. Your beliefs are based on nothing but blind faith. I know both sides lack reason or tolerance of each other thats why its so much fun to make them argue. Well how can there be more than one God? God is infinite wouldn't that make him everything? If there was more than one God than that God would not be infinite effectively making it not God.
thats right, jesus didnt run a cult, PAUL did.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might not be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.

You're so bored that you're trolling now?

Go piss yourself.

Maybe I will decide to believe that gnomes are living in my sock drawer.

I haven't seen any gnomes, or gnome poo or anything, but that's okay, because they're invisible gnomes that don't conform to our human notions, like bowel movements.

Nobody can prove that there aren't gnomes living in my sock drawer! My position is unassailable!

Actually, no, I'd feel like an idiot if I went round declaring I believed that. Hence I don't believe in the mysterious invisible God with no bowel movements either.

GOD DOES EXIST BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF HE DOES NOT EXIST, UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE SOME STFU

Really, all you're doing with crap like that is proving that both sides lack reason and tolerance.

Jesus Christ, havn't you ever taken a science class...like...ever? One of the things they tell you is that undeniable PROOF DOES NOT EXIST. We can have evidence to back up a hypothesis, and if we have enough, it can be pushed up to a theory, and if there is even more evidence, and it is backed up by seeing the same thing happening over and over again in nature 100% of the time, it can be pushed up to a law. However, laws are only used in exact sciences like mathematics, and physics. Let's leave it at that.

My reply to Mr. Chess Squares is the same reply I use against anyone who challenges me to "prove God's existance." I can't. But now that that's out of the way, I challenge you: can you even think of a REASON not to believe in God? Because if there is no good reason not to, then which side is "true" becomes irrelivant. I believe in God because it helps me lead a better life and have an optomistic outlook on life. I challenge anyone here to come up with a single benefit of atheism.

ok lets try this


the standing proof for gods existance is the bible, the bible is fallible either through contradicting itself or contradicitng known science, thus there is no standing unquestionable proof of god's existance


care to come again?


edit: and whats more is the positive assertion is the assertion that must be proven, not the negative one.

1) the Bible proves nothing, no matter what they told you.

2) the "reasoning" you provided in the previous post works just as well for atheists as it does for theists. Both of these assertions are positions held on faith and dogma.

3) neither a positive nor a negative assertion must be proven. To tell anyone, atheist of theist, that they "must" prove what they believe by faith or else they should "STFU" is ignorent and intolerent.

4) STFU.

But now that that's out of the way, I challenge you: can you even think of a REASON not to believe in God?
i thought you read my post

1) the Bible proves nothing, no matter what they told you.

2) the "reasoning" you provided in the previous post works just as well for atheists as it does for theists. Both of these assertions are positions held on faith and dogma.

3) neither a positive nor a negative assertion must be proven. To tell anyone, atheist of theist, that they "must" prove what they believe by faith or else they should "STFU" is ignorent and intolerent.

4) STFU.

1) how would you know god existed without the bible, it is a legitimate proof in this argument

2) proven scientific theory is not faith and dogma

3)no, in a proof argument, the positive assertion has the burder of proof, and i told him that because he is sitting there requesting proof, you dont sit around saying stuff if you dont want to get questioned

4) kiss my skinny white ass

Jesus Christ, havn't you ever taken a science class...like...ever? One of the things they tell you is that undeniable PROOF DOES NOT EXIST. We can have evidence to back up a hypothesis, and if we have enough, it can be pushed up to a theory, and if there is even more evidence, and it is backed up by seeing the same thing happening over and over again in nature 100% of the time, it can be pushed up to a law. However, laws are only used in exact sciences like mathematics, and physics. Let's leave it at that.

And I have a Physics degree. Obviously you don't have one in English, or you would recognize sarcasm. Go look again at the post I was replying to and maybe you'll choose to redirect the above at that one's poster.

Okay... let's prove it once and for all...

Okay 'God', your turn to post.... this is your chance, prove you exist....

come on, i dare you...

no reply?

What kind of a God would act on your command?
That would make YOU God!

What kind of a God would act on your command?
That would make YOU God!


Not to mention that He says that proof denies faith (well, duh)...so, I don't think that we will be seeing much of him.

Can't prove a negative anyway...

Yes, Chess Sqares. I read your post. And it contained no reason to not believe in God, from what I could tell. You had plenty of things casting doubt on theism, but not one point that actually supported atheism directly. Without any support, atheism will always be inferior to theism, because at least theism has the benefits I listed. Unlikelyhoods be damned. So give me some positive backup for not believing in God, or if I missed a post on page 3 or earlier, kindly summarize for me.

In my opinion it is not about wether God or a God exists, but what "religious" people do and what they believe in. Maybe there is a God (hopefully), but just taking into concern what his ground personnel has done in the past in God´s name is a more than horrible thing. I think more people have been killed "in the name of God" than for any other reason.

Religion (no matter which one) can be a deadly weapon. It is even more dangerous when you look at how things are handled even nowadays. Mr. Shaky-Hands-Pope is against the anti-baby-pill. Well, he doesn´t have to worry about making a living for a family of 10 children. (He just has the money. :D )

I really don´t mind what people think, as long as they don´t try to sell me their Watchtower or try to convince me how fabulous their religion is.

Another point: Let someone claim to have seen an UFO. He will most probably be declared nuts! But one should be aware that the catholic church has official exorcits, doing their job every day! Now how crazy is that?

If something good happens, it is "thank God". When something bad happens, it is because "God gave mankind the free will to do things as they want". Yeah, whow.

Thank you for your attention.

I challenge you: can you even think of a REASON not to believe in God? Because if there is no good reason not to, then which side is "true" becomes irrelivant. I believe in God because it helps me lead a better life and have an optomistic outlook on life. I challenge anyone here to come up with a single benefit of atheism.

well, i can think of a good reason not to believe in the judeo-christian god.

the religion focuses too much on guilt and sin and ignores the love. in sermons it would be say half an hour about how we sin and how god is good because god forgives us for our sins and how we should be grateful that god forgives such terrible sinners as ourselves... and then maybe 5-10 mins of god loves you.

the thing is, it's much better to believe in yourself than to believe in a deity. it's easier on the self-esteem, and with better self confidence, you can develop your social skills more and be mroe successful in life.

aside from that, i don't know any atheists who are assholes. when you think about it, if this is the only life you and everyone else get, why are you going to spend it being a jerk? if you found out you had one day to live, would you use that day to tell off your boss? or would you use that day to tell your family you love them?
see, as far as i know, i have one life, i might as well enjoy it and if possible, make it enjoyable for others as well.
the best thing about it is that it isn't done to score points in the afterlife with some man in the sky, but simply for the sake of your fellow human beings.

well, i can think of a good reason not to believe in the judeo-christian god.

the religion focuses too much on guilt and sin and ignores the love.


That would be a good reason to distrust churches and organized religion. They have too many agendas outside of faith.

1) how would you know god existed without the bible, it is a legitimate proof in this argument

2) proven scientific theory is not faith and dogma

3)no, in a proof argument, the positive assertion has the burder of proof, and i told him that because he is sitting there requesting proof, you dont sit around saying stuff if you dont want to get questioned

4) kiss my skinny white ass

1) I have encountered God as well as many things that conventional Science does not deal with or have the means to. I have OTOH never tried to use the Bible as proof for the existance of God... that would be stupid, like you are.

2) No it isn't... point? Is there some proven scientific theory of the non-existance of God that y'all aren't telling us about?

3) An assertion that there is positively no God is a positive assertion of the presence of absence. Only pure Agnosticism takes no positive position.

Do you believe in the core of the Earth? You do? Can you prove it exists? You can't? STFU then. It may be hollow. If it is, there is nothing there. Does asserting that there is nothing there, in a proof argument, require less of a standard, or "burder", of proof?

4) Take your head out of it long enough and I'll consider it.

Yes Tribal Ecology you are a stupid atheist because you have not given me a reason as to why you have those beliefs.

You get annoyed when people call christians stupid, yet you are calling people who are athiests stupid!? Stop being a hypocrit!

No-one is stupid because of what they believe in, You believe or don't believe what you want... You can't call athiests/other people stupid for what they don't believe/ believe and get annoyed when they/other people call christians stupid because they believe in the christian faith!

Yes, Chess Sqares. I read your post. And it contained no reason to not believe in God, from what I could tell. You had plenty of things casting doubt on theism, but not one point that actually supported atheism directly. Without any support, atheism will always be inferior to theism, because at least theism has the benefits I listed. Unlikelyhoods be damned. So give me some positive backup for not believing in God, or if I missed a post on page 3 or earlier, kindly summarize for me.
there are 2 kinds of people: logical and emotional

for the logical my explanation destroys the idea of god, as sherlock holems was quite fond of saying "Eliminate the impossible, and whatever is left, howeer improbable, is the answer." my reasoning strips your belief of plausibility

for the emotional you could bean them with 2x4 and it wouldnt affect anything, but i like arguing so ill keep it up

That would be a good reason to distrust churches and organized religion. They have too many agendas outside of faith.

i felt the same way when i read the bible too. the emptiness wasn't just in the church, it was in the scripture as well.

the only religious texts that have felt right for me reading them have been buddhist.

They Are Stupid.

It's not so much belief in God that bothers me, but what causes the transition from not believing to believing. It's easy to believe in God once you've decided to believe, because you can say to yourself "There is no proof for either side, so why shouldn't I stay on my side of the fence?".

Since God is not apparent, and there is no proof that he exists, what causes you to decide to believe that such a thing exists?

Since nobody is born believing in God, the inverse cannot be asked. Until someone tells you about God, you have no idea that such a thing might exist.

Deciding to believe in something for which there is no proof seems like a rather arbitrary act. Remaining skeptical, however, is not.

One of these days, someone will explain the idea of 'burden of proof', in such a way that a Christian will be able to understand it. But I don't think it will happen soon.

They Are Stupid.

so you're not actually going to contribute anything usefull to the discussion, are you?

Wow, Dakini. You disagree with me and yet I agree with every single point you made. This goes for automagfreek as well: I am completely for the distrust of organized religion. Getting into a church can lead to all sorts of harmful things, including crusades, pessimism, and boredom. But that's not the same as believing in God. The God I believe in loves and will save us all, no matter how "bad" we are in this life. Helps me stay positive and think that everything will turn out ok. But yeah, that might be one downside; the chance that you'd join a lousy church. Still, nobody yet has given me an upside to atheism or a downside to faith in its purest form.

1) I have encountered God as well as many things that conventional Science does not deal with or have the means to. I have OTOH never tried to use the Bible as proof for the existance of God... that would be stupid, like you are.

2) No it isn't... point? Is there some proven scientific theory of the non-existance of God that y'all aren't telling us about?

3) An assertion that there is positively no God is a positive assertion of the presence of absence. Only pure Agnosticism takes no positive position.

Do you believe in the core of the Earth? You do? Can you prove it exists? You can't? STFU then. It may be hollow. If it is, there is nothing there. Does asserting that there is nothing there, in a proof argument, require less of a standard, or "burder", of proof?

4) Take your head out of it long enough and I'll consider it.

1. Such as?

2. I believe he means that he will take science (evolution) over pure faith (creationism)

3. I can prove that there is a core...its called gravity. A positive assertion of absense is still a negative.

1) I have encountered God as well as many things that conventional Science does not deal with or have the means to. I have OTOH never tried to use the Bible as proof for the existance of God... that would be stupid, like you are.

2) No it isn't... point? Is there some proven scientific theory of the non-existance of God that y'all aren't telling us about?

3) An assertion that there is positively no God is a positive assertion of the presence of absence. Only pure Agnosticism takes no positive position.

Do you believe in the core of the Earth? You do? Can you prove it exists? You can't? STFU then. It may be hollow. If it is, there is nothing there. Does asserting that there is nothing there, in a proof argument, require less of a standard, or "burder", of proof?

4) Take your head out of it long enough and I'll consider it.

1) you would not even know god exists without the bible, consider that blatantly obvious fact

2) none your thick skulled self is going to listen to if you cant even comprehend you wouldnt know of the existance of god without the bible


3) did you see the word no, no makes it a negative, thus meaning it is a NEGATIVE assertion, i thought you were well versed in schooling since you like to point it out to people. you obviously did not minor in english,

4) woo woo here comes the clue train you self rightous peon, maybe you should stop thinking yourself better than everyone else for 5 secodns to realize hoiw stupid you are

I think I would have believed in the/a god(s) if I had not been tricked as a child. My parents told me (the Roman Catholic) god existed when I was little. They also told me that Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy existed. When the told me that none of these existed I still believed in god but not as much as I had before. A few years went by and I realized that if my parents lied to be about the existence of these mystical beings, what made their teachings of a god be believable? At the time I was in 8th grade CCD/catechism/sunday school what have you. My parents did not send me back the following year (three years before my confirmation) and said I didn't have to go once I was in high school. I still believe the church did not want me back because I said I did not believe in god everyday. Anywho, I don't believe in god because I have no proof of his/her/its existance. I should start worshipping the Sun, I can see it, I know its purpose and I know if it goes away there is no survival.

Thats just my two cents.

i felt the same way when i read the bible too. the emptiness wasn't just in the church, it was in the scripture as well.

the only religious texts that have felt right for me reading them have been buddhist.


I agree.

People who base their faith entirely off of what a church or the Bible says are missing out on alot. They're not seeing the entire picture because they're too busy focusing on their sins and are not focusing on living a good life. Because isn't that why we were given life, to experience it?

1) you would not even know god exists without the bible, consider that blatantly obvious fact

2) none your thick skulled self is going to listen to if you cant even comprehend you wouldnt know of the existance of god without the bible


3) did you see the word no, no makes it a negative, thus meaning it is a NEGATIVE assertion, i thought you were well verse in schooling sicne you like to point it out to people. you obviously did minor in english,

4) woo woo here comes the clue train you self rightous peon, maybe you should stop thinking yourself better than everyone else for 5 secodns to realize hoiw stupid you are

1) Since a world without the Bible does not exist and since you cannot prove that God does not exist, there is nothing blatently obvious about any of that.

2) Since your answer to (1) is flat out wrong your evasion of (2) is even more childish.

3) So you admit that there is a burden of proof to the assertion that there is a core in the center of the Earth? After all, we should assume there is nothing there when we have no proof at all either way, at least according to you.

4) Well I don't... but I'm pretty sure that I'm better than you.

It's not so much belief in God that bothers me, but what causes the transition from not believing to believing. It's easy to believe in God once you've decided to believe, because you can say to yourself "There is no proof for either side, so why shouldn't I stay on my side of the fence?".

Since God is not apparent, and there is no proof that he exists, what causes you to decide to believe that such a thing exists?

Since nobody is born believing in God, the inverse cannot be asked. Until someone tells you about God, you have no idea that such a thing might exist.

Deciding to believe in something for which there is no proof seems like a rather arbitrary act. Remaining skeptical, however, is not.

One of these days, someone will explain the idea of 'burden of proof', in such a way that a Christian will be able to understand it. But I don't think it will happen soon.

I just want to thank you for saying that... You've just made me think things through in a very different way!

fednuzia, the thing is that even just reading the bible i felt the same way. i felt empty and i bad for things i really shouldn't feel bad for. i did believe in god at one point, and it never made me feel good, i never really felt like helping people out or anything...

then i give up trying to believe in it and i start to feel better. i make friends and i start to notice that other people have problems too, i try to help them out as well. and really, when as far as you know, there's only one life to life, it's something you make count. christians can sit there and save all their living until after they're dead... i'm not sure i have that liberty.

at any rate, i don't think it's a matter of one being better than the other universally. i think it's more a matter of what is better for the individual. i felt empty as a christian, but i don't have that same feeling as an agnostic humanist with buddhist leanings. you might have once been an atheist or a lapsed christian of some sort and felt a similar emptiness, but you feel whole with your current beliefs. i mean, some things feel right to some people and wrong to others... if you were to wear one of my skirts, you might feel a bit awkward, but i'm fine in it. i dunno... at this point i start to ramble so i'll shut up.

1) Since a world without the Bible does not exist and since you cannot prove that God does not exist, there is nothing blatently obvious about any of that.

2) Since your answer to (1) is flat out wrong your evasion of (2) is even more childish.

3) So you admit that there is a burben of proof to the assertion that there is a core in the center of the Earth? After all, we should assume there is nothing there when we have no proof at all either way, at least according to you.

4) Well I don't... but I'm pretty sure that I'm better than you.

1) point one is irrelevant, besides the fact you re the one insisting the bible has nothing to do with proving the existance of god


2) i am not evading the question, i am not bothering to answer it because you wouldnt listen, why waste my time on an idiot who doesnt ven recognize the bible as the MAIN, ORIGINAL proof of gods existance

3) yes i will admit if you are asserting earth DOES HAVE a core, yes there is aburder of proof on you, which is provable through grqavity like the other guy said, if there was no core, less gravity

First off, I'd like to say that the entire point of this topic was to lash out at something the creator of this topic is not brave enough to understand, and therefore fears. As an atheist, I felt the jab. So I say back to you:

THERE IS NO GOD! YOU BELIEVE ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SCARED OF THE ALTERNATIVE OR BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO BRAINWASHED TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!

That being said, and it was not aimed at any Christian in this thread, I might like to say that I don't usually shove my atheism in people's faces unless they shove it in mine. I don't usually like to offend people or even conflict with them over religious beliefs, but when mine get attacked, I'll attack back.

Now, to the matter at hand. You can't possibly assert that something is true without proving it, and it is obvious from that that you cannot possibly expect someone else to believe what you say unless you prove it. The whole Christian assertion that you cannot question your faith or you will go to hell is quite pointless, as that is like lying under a blanket and saying that there might be something harmful outside when you take it off. About as realistic too. Unless you question something, how can you be sure of it unless you are too brainwashed to question it?

Is religion rational when seen from the perspective of one who is not? No.

And to agnostics: You can't have it both ways. Either he exists or he doesn't. Follow the paths of logic and figure it out.

Omfg, Druthulu and Chess Sqares. Both of you really need to take a debate class. Seldom have I seen a reasonable argument trail of on a wild tangent and degenerate to such a low level so quickly.
Now Dikini on the other hand... you really know what you're talking about. You are the FIRST person I have ever talked to that gave me a good reason for atheism. Congrats. I never really thought much about how faith can be a double edged sword depending on your image of God. My God is a nice guy who helps out and doesn't care if you screw up. Thus, I go out and live my life the way I want to, thinking of God as more of a backup/guidance kind of guy. I wouldn't want believe in the God you described either. The last paragraph in your last post made more sense than most college professors I know.
edit- Oh, and Shassara: I respect your decision to be atheistic. But please don't argue that religion doesn't make sense from an outside perspective. When it comes to something as philosophical as this, I say "truth be damned." Go with what makes you live your life the best, not what's true.

You lot do realise that all you're doing is proving us agnostics to be the only people with ideas about higher beings which recognise the reality we observe, right? :)

1) point one is irrelevant, besides the fact you re the one insisting the bible has nothing to do with proving the existance of god


2) i am not evading the question, i am not bothering to answer it because you wouldnt listen, why waste my time on an idiot who doesnt ven recognize the bible as the MAIN, ORIGINAL proof of gods existance

3) yes i will admit if you are asserting earth DOES HAVE a core, yes there is aburder of proof on you, which is provable through grqavity like the other guy said, if there was no core, less gravity

1) you're the one saying the Bible is the only reason people believe in God. People believed in dieties long before there was a Bible.

2) you evaded (2) in your last post by saying that since I didn't understand (1) you wouldn't bother. So you're either a liar or you don't remember what you yourself have said.

3) gravity is a factor of mass, and if the planet is a shell it therefor must have very dense material around its inner circumferance that just happens to provide the same gravity as a molton iron core would. Of course, that's a positive assertion too, along with the idea that there is a tiny black hole in there. To you, that it is molten iron is the best theory. Me too. But there's no real proof that anything's there.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist.
Just like we can't prove that square circles don't exist, right?

When you understand why we can do one, you'll understand why we can do the other.

*blushes*

thanks, i wasn't sure how much sense i was making... i always suspect that i'll post something that will leave everyone severely confused.
but yeah, i'm not really much of an atheist, as i said earlier i'm an agnostic humanist. though i suppose depending on your definition of atheist i am one... i don't believe there is a god, but i don't believe there isn't... the truth is that i don't know what else (if anything) there is. and to be quite honest, i don't really think that anyone knows for certain one way or the other... we all just have our opinions and theories.

You lot do realise that all you're doing is proving us agnostics to be the only people with ideas about higher beings which recognise the reality we observe, right? :)

Yes :) You are welcome.

Anyway, CHESS, you started this with the assertion that there's a burden of proof on theists to provide scientific(?) evidence for what they believe on faith, or else to "Shut The Fuck Up".

There remains no burden of proof on anyone for what they believe by faith, whether it is the presence or the absence of diety, or anything else, so get to shutting, please.

Just like we can't prove that square circles don't exist, right?

When you understand why we can do one, you'll understand why we can do the other.
REALLY??? :D GREAT!!! So DO it already and quit puffing air!

You get to shutting as well, Druthulu, as outlined in my last post. And Kharstein: yeah, you agnostics are the only ones that recognize the reality. But us religious folk are the ones who ignore the reality in favor of what's seems best for us. Just a thought for you to chew on. And whoever said the thing about square circles: "square" and "circle" are both artificial terms that we have created in such a way that they are direct contradictions of each other. "God" is not a contradiction in terms, so your logic doesn't hold.

You get to shutting as well, Druthulu, as outlined in my last post.

"Never argue with an idiot. People might not be able to tell the difference."

His first post was to tell anyone that believes in deity to show him proof or to shut the fuck up. I apologize for sinking to his level.

I just want to thank you for saying that... You've just made me think things through in a very different way!

You're welcome. :)

Yay, I messed with someone's head! ;)

Wow, it's actually quite calm in here now that Chess Squares left and Druthulu came back to his senses. Do topics always explode and then die this quickly on these forums?

The argument goes like this:

Man: "Prove to me that You exist."
God: "I cannot, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.
Man: "But, what about <random theist argument, miracles, etc..>. That's pretty much a dead giveaway, isn't it? Therefore, you exist, and therefore, you don't."
God: "I never thought of that". <vanishes in a puff of logic>


This is lifted rather unceremoniously from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but it's got a good point underneath it. Theists need to believe something. Atheists do not. Whether or not what is being believed is true is really quite irrelevant to the entire process, and if you could have proof of the existence of God, then God would cease to be a wonderful and unknowable mystery to you.

"Yes Tribal Ecology you are a stupid atheist because you have not given me a reason as to why you have those beliefs."

So now I'm stupid because I can think for myself? I'm stupid because in my spirit I believe that hurting others for stupid purposes like greed is evil? I'm stupid because I have empathy?

So if I believed in god blindly, like you do, no matter how I hated other people and hurt them for fun, I would be better off?

There is a tribe in Africa where there is no belief in god. They don't believe in a higher force. They don't even think that there is one. Yet they love and are loved, they respect each other, they respect nature. They don't kill animals for anything else than need. Does their lack of god make them stupid too?

Did you know that Buddha said that he isn't a god? Did you know that Buddhism is nothing more than being at peace with yourself, by being friendly, being kind and respecting nature? Buddha never meant to be a god, although most Buddhists made of him a godly person, like you make of Jesus. That doesn't mean that Buddha was holy. He was just a regular person with morals and the ability to seek peace and happiness without it being at the expense of others.

You are the worst kind of religious person: The hypocrit.

Hello everyone,

I felt compelled to express my beliefs regarding this issue...

You know, I believe in God, but I did not always do so. It is suprising, because my father is a Pegan (did I spell that right?), and my sister was, at one time, a right hand Christian. My mother is undecided.

I consider myself to be a born-again Christian. Being so, let me say this: even us Christians cannot prove that God exists. You see, religion is something that you or a group of people BELIEVE in. That does not mean that you can prove it, because God's love is something that you only feel. You feel it everytime that you look at a homeless man on the streets. You feel it whenever you see a child cry in anguish over (some) issue. You feel it when you see soldiers dying in Iraq or Afghanistan. You feel it when you fall in love with someone. You feel it when someone you love dies. And you feel it because you believe that God loves you and that he exists. It is not something that one can prove, because feelings, emotions, and beliefs can not always be proven. Even more so on the religious issues.

Regarding other's religions: I am perfectly fine with other people's religions, because I believe that God loves everyone, regardless of who they are, what they have done, who they love, what thier sexual preference is, or what they believe in. To me, God loves all, so I do not try to press my opinions on others to try and prove God's love, because I believe that God knows that when they are ready to believe, then they will come to Him and seek Him into thier hearts. Also, because God loves everyone, so do I. I do not look at anyone any differently, regardless if they are gay, strait, murderers, aithiests, buddists.....none of that matters to me, because I know that God loves every single one of them, and that I should too.

Regarding those who try to press thier beliefs on others: Okay, c'mon...

This goes beyond religious belief. To me, this is just an example of a person or person(s) trying to control everyone and FORCE everyone to believe what they believe. It is like those fools who are trying to force the gay issues to be banned, when it is quite clearly NONE OF THIER BUSINESS!! I mean, c'mon and use your common sence: how would you feel if you believed in something, or loved someone, and someone came along and said "no, you cannot believe in that," or "no, you cannot love that person"? I'll bet you would be pretty pissed off. And if you ask me, I would say that gays and lesbians are taking all of this quite well. It is those religious fanatics who need to calm down and realise that, when it all boils down to it, God loves everyone, REGARDLESS OF WHO THEY LOVE. It is not something that they can stop.

But I am not about to fire off the same-sex marrage issue. I'll leave that between the individual and God. And if God shall strike them down on the day of thier Judgement, then so be it. It is not my say-so.

-Regards,

Commander-General Vlad Pryde
~=*****=~

1) you're the one saying the Bible is the only reason people believe in God. People believed in dieties long before there was a Bible.

2) you evaded (2) in your last post by saying that since I didn't understand (1) you wouldn't bother. So you're either a liar or you don't remember what you yourself have said.

3) gravity is a factor of mass, and if the planet is a shell it therefor must have very dense material around its inner circumferance that just happens to provide the same gravity as a molton iron core would. Of course, that's a positive assertion too, along with the idea that there is a tiny black hole in there. To you, that it is molten iron is the best theory. Me too. But there's no real proof that anything's there.

1) NO, im saying the Bible is the ONLY reason people know the CHRISTIAN god exists, of course there are OTHER deities, none of which have ANYTHING to do with the BIBLE

2) fine lets not evade, god violates the firstl aw of thermo dynamics, you cant create something out of nothing

3) this core bullshit is getting ludircous, just shut up

And Kharstein: yeah, you agnostics are the only ones that recognize the reality. But us religious folk are the ones who ignore the reality in favor of what's seems best for us. Just a thought for you to chew on.

Believe me, I have, and it's part of why I think it's one of the worst approaches to take. All actions people commit are done for what they believe, consciously or unconsciously, are in their best interests (however altruistic they may appear,) otherwise they wouldn't commit those actions. Were I to accept atheists and theists I who can barefacedly admit to believing in what they do without evidence I must condemn in the same way I would any cults, philosophies and ideas held as truths which contradict the evidence at hand for ultimately being wrong or unhelpul in constructing our understanding of the world around us, they could all be potentially dangerous weaknesses and indulgences that could harm the quality of life of people needlessly.

"Never argue with an idiot. People might not be able to tell the difference."

His first post was to tell anyone that believes in deity to show him proof or to shut the fuck up. I apologize for sinking to his level.

THE POINT is that penguin kept begging for people to provce god did not exist, i was the only one to provide a rebuttle. PENGUIN STARTED IT ASKING FOR PROOF.

to Armed Military Services - God's love sounds like empathy and depression

Yes, I was just thinking about that....I did word it that way, didn't I?

But isn't that some of the best examples of God's love?

So much for peace and quiet... ah well.
Halbertonia: Funny. And a good point, too. I really need to get around to reading that book. AMS: Pressing one's beliefs on someone else really is a bad thing. I for one simply like to argue the case because debating gives me an adrenaline rush. Call me a nerd. :) Kahrstein: Yep, I suppose if it weren't for people hiding behind their religion, we wouldn't be in Iraq right now. I guess religion is a good thing, but it can easily get out of control if misused. Kind of like nuclear power. AMS again: Wow, they really ARE all empathy and depression. I think what you're trying to say is that you can feel God's love every time you feel a strong emotion. Chess Sqares- Regardless of who started the proof thing, you're the first one who got pissed and turned it into an argument. Stop capitalizing whole sentences and I might reconsider my opinion of you.

The bible says that we as Christians are supposed to be Open to other belief systems, and not to JUDGE. and by saying that any other group of people is lesser than we are goes against everything God created.

Masee:

Good job, and Amen! :D

Just like we can't prove that square circles don't exist, right?

When you understand why we can do one, you'll understand why we can do the other.
REALLY??? :D GREAT!!! So DO it already and quit puffing air!
Just as one is self-contradictory and logically impossible, so is the other, as well as being cognitively bereft. "God" has no logical extension in reality. It's just a 3-character string. It denotes nothing real. It has many connotations, but no denotations. It's am empty set. A meaningless utterance. An emotive ejaculation.

It is the same as dskjgeaksdjksjdkg--just letters with nothing to back them up.

And whoever said the thing about square circles: "square" and "circle" are both artificial terms that we have created in such a way that they are direct contradictions of each other. "God" is not a contradiction in terms, so your logic doesn't hold.
Yes, it is. It holds just fine.

And I have a Physics degree. Obviously you don't have one in English, or you would recognize sarcasm. Go look again at the post I was replying to and maybe you'll choose to redirect the above at that one's poster.

That was kind of an accident. WOOPSIES! I thought that both of the messages would show in the same one like they did back on the old server. Guess I was wrong.

Anywho, I'm getting tired of this particular thread. I'm gonna go start one about train spotting.

I consider myself a Christian, but I am not fond of the structure of the Catholic Church, it irks me. Being non-denominated, I simply believe that the Christian God exists. I try to be open to the opinions of others, but when comments such as the blatently closed-minded comments such as "There is no God, accept it." are made I feel that some people are calling us closed-minded, and unable to think outside of the box; you know who you are. But then again, making a statement like that seems like it is a little bit hypocritical, don't you? Some of you who are athiests mention having believed in a God at one point in your lives, I am like you in the fact that I too once had a totally different belief. I didn't believe in God. In fact it was just last November that I started to believe in God. After reading the posts I have noticed that many athiests make the assumptions that God is all about the sins, and the guilt. Sin is important to us, it is one of the things that helps us to live a good life. Our laws of sin, our just like the laws of most countries in the world. I myself have a sort of different belief in Christianity in that I believe in most of what the bible says, but I don't believe in many parts of it. Most of these parts have to do with the creation. It's not that I have a firm belief in the Big Bang Theory, but I have no reason not, just like I have no reason not to believe in the Biblical Creation. I am undecided in some matters, now that I have written the most poorly written, oversised paragraph of my life, I am ready for the torrent of responses from those who will not even think of accepting any possible form of tolerance. And for the rest of you, thank you for taking the time to read this.

well, this statement is kinda random, but, History books published in the United States declare that a man named Jesus was indeed crusified, just as the bible claims. To me, thats proof enough.

There is no way on God's green earth the athiests could ever hope to disprove the existence of God.
And they know it, that is why they cram their views down our throats.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might no be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.

I think you're stupid.

Edit this post AND the thread title and I'll consider your worthless point.

There is no way on God's green earth the athiests could ever hope to disprove the existence of God.
And they know it, that is why they cram their views down our throats.Yet there's no way you can proof him.

well, this statement is kinda random, but, History books published in the United States declare that a man named Jesus was indeed crusified, just as the bible claims. To me, thats proof enough.
So? Many people were crucified. That doesn't prove the existance of "God". The crucification was because Jesus of Nazerath betrayed his people and made claims that were contradictory and unfavourable in his religion.

Most Christians dont need proof, we have something better.


Faith.

To keep up with the theme of the thread, you know, the constant debate on proof, here's an interesting bit of information. Yes, Jesus was crucified, yes he was burried; even athiests acknowledge that. Here is where the conflict of faith steps in, I believe; as well as just about every Christian on Earth, that he rose from his grave on the third day. Now to prove that I can't, but you show me the remains of Jesus and I will be glad to throw away my beliefs. The remains of just about every historical figure in history have been found and recorded in some way, but Jesus, nope. None, nothing. This is because he rose from the grave, you cannot find the remains of someone if they aren't dead. That's that.

WOO! Go delaina!

Yet there's no way you can proof him.
Have we met yet? If not, nice to meet you. It's nice to meet someone with common sense.

A Response to Whittier-'s post:
ok first off, not all Atheists "cram their views" down our throats. u cant classify every person of oen beleif as soemthign, cuz its not true. i have atheistic friends n do they "cram views" down my throat? no. so be tolerant of other beliefs and stop trying to win an argument u already lost.

Masee, I'm not trying to make any real comebacks, just trying to add a little information to people, I'd really like all of the hostility on this thread to stop, but then again that would make it utterly boring.

Well, let's see, Delaina... Have they found Julius Caesar? Where's Augustus? Tiberius? What about Harold the Saxon?

Just as one is self-contradictory and logically impossible, so is the other, as well as being cognitively bereft. "God" has no logical extension in reality. It's just a 3-character string. It denotes nothing real. It has many connotations, but no denotations. It's am empty set. A meaningless utterance. An emotive ejaculation.

It is the same as dskjgeaksdjksjdkg--just letters with nothing to back them up.

It's empty to you, but not to others. For example, I've never been to China. There's a lot of circumstancial evidence for it being there, but I've never experienced it directly. I know people who claim to have, even people who claim to have come from there, but I've never put my feet on a patch of soil and said, "So, this is China, now I know it's here because I have been here myself and experienced it with my own senses and unless I'm willing to admit that everything I have learned with my own senses up to this point may be faulty, I now have personal 'proof' of the existance of China." China, to me, is just an abstract concept. However, it would seem silly to live in a world where China doesn't exist, even though I have no direct personal conclusive proof of it's existance.

So too God, or at least the concept of divinity. I don't know it's there. I can't prove it. There may be circumstancial evidence for it, but it's third-party at best. But it seems to me, from my own personal experience that there's "something" there. It's not summarized in whole by the Christian God concept, or the Islamic God concept or the Pagan Gods and Goddesses concept (although this may be closer to the right track), but it includes all of them. I don't ask you to "take my word" that God exists or that he even exists in the way I conceptualize it. But just so, you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the personal experience and beliefs of others simply because you lack a priori experience of wherever it is they've been to.

You've found an answer, but just as my God is my only answer, so too is your lack of one only yours. Why is it so important to you that it not exist? Surely for something that is simply imaginary, the use of any words or arguments against it is simply a waste? If you are so certain that God is an "empty set" (which, I agree, it most probably is until one seeks to fill it), then why do you care what others believe at all?

China is in the world just as surely as I may never actually get there to experience it for myself. However, God is not an "empty set" to me, even though China is, because I have been somewhere that has filled it. That doesn't make me better than you or wiser than you or more "righteous" than you, just different from you. Why does that difference threaten you?

Delaina:
I meant comeback like, add on to my statement :)

Well, let's see, Delaina... Have they found Julius Caesar? Where's Augustus? Tiberius? What about Harold the Saxon?
They are long dead. They are now the fertilizer for the earth.

Shessara, look, I'm not an archeaologist, I have no idea if they have been found or not. All I know is that the remains of Jesus haven't, and that seems like proof enough to me. After all, all we have to go by to prove the existance of anyone in history is documentation. What do you call the Bible? If the Bible is fiction written by a bunch of radicals, who's to say that much Roman documentation isn't? Or any other kinds of ancient writings for that matter? We just simply believe it to be true because we have what we believe to be proof. I beleive that the events in the Bible are proof of the existence of God, you believe that ancient documentation is proof to the existence of people like Julius Ceasar.

why are we all arguing about religion anyway? i mean it could go on and on, and ur never gonna change a perons view/belief or vice versa. so what's the point of doing it?

Well if they did in fact exist, then it is probable that they were entombed, that might possibly preservet their remains.

ATHIESTS are stupid?

Are you kidding me?
I tell you who's stupid....anyone who belives that some all powerful guy who lives in the sky, made two people from the dirt, and then from that guys rib, and then watched as those people took dietary advice from a talking snake.


How much more stupid could anyone be to buy into that?

Not to mention basing a religion on fear.

Shessara, look, I'm not an archeaologist, I have no idea if they have been found or not. All I know is that the remains of Jesus haven't, and that seems like proof enough to me. After all, all we have to go by to prove the existance of anyone in history is documentation. What do you call the Bible? If the Bible is fiction written by a bunch of radicals, who's to say that much Roman documentation isn't? Or any other kinds of ancient writings for that matter? We just simply believe it to be true because we have what we believe to be proof. I beleive that the events in the Bible are proof of the existence of God, you believe that ancient documentation is proof to the existence of people like Julius Ceasar.

You make an interesting point, but you're still hanging your concept on what isn't there rather than on what is. We haven't found the bones of Jesus, but that doesn't necessarily imply a supernatural event took place and removed them. Perhaps it did, but it's just as likely that, if they existed, they were removed and are lost to time. How would you even prove they were really his, anyway? It's a logical leap that can not be justified and, strictly within the realm of faith, shouldn't be.

Well if they did in fact exist, then it is probable that they were entombed, that might possibly preservet their remains.

Have we found the tomb? I'm not being confrontational, I really don't know and just wonder if anyone does.

I remember seeing this a few years back. It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it certainly entertains certain possibilities.

This is from http://graal.co.uk/ossuary.html

Read if you will:


Along with these was a 6-inch shard of pottery, also bearing the name of Jesus and engraved with the emblem of a fish.

It was subsequently hailed as the greatest Christian-related discovery of all time, but for a while its secret was held within Israel. This was because the Jewish establishment was not especially concerned with Jesus - a figure of the Christian religion, even though he had been twice mentioned in the 1st-century Antiquities of the Jews.



The limestone ossuary inscribed "Jesus son of Joseph" (65 cm x 25 cm x 30 cm) came to Western attention when the BBC was preparing for a TV programme in conjunction with the J. Arthur Rank company CTVC. In the light of generally changing religious and secular attitudes concerning the literal interpretation of the Resurrection, a British research team flew to Jerusalem to establish what might have become of Jesus' body after his death. They included Chris Mann, director of the BBC's religious series Heart of the Matter, along with CTVC religious affairs director Barrie Allcott.



To their surprise, the research took hardly any time and, in a very matter of fact way, they were directed to the Israel Archaeological Authority storeroom, to meet with the curator Baruk Brendel. The Jesus ossuary was soon brought to their attention, along with the collection of ossuraries from the same family tomb. Not only the ossuary of Jesus son of Joseph, but those of his parents and siblings, together with another associated casket, inscribed with the name Matthew.



Although all devoid of bones, it was explained that the Jewish law in this regard is very strict in Israel. When bones, or artifacts containing bones, are archaeologically discovered, the bones have to be sensitively reburied by the authorities, even though their containers may be separately removed. By 1996, however, the original burial site had become quite inaccessible beneath a large new apartment block.



The stunning news hit the British press on Sunday 31st March 1996, with front-page headlines and a lengthy feature article in The Sunday Times, entitled "The Tomb that dare not speak its Name".



Subsequently, on Sunday 7th April, excitement heightened when the BBC TV special, filmed in Jerusalem, was broadcast. It was Easter Sunday 1996 when Joan Bakewell, CBE (now Lady Chairman of the British Film Institute), hosted the much publicized feature documentary "The Body in Question".



Referring to their first sight of the ossuaries, Chris Mann said, "It felt like the balls of the National Lottery coming up one by one", with his co-producer Ray Bruce declaring, "It is remarkable". Also recounting the Jerusalem experience, Joan Bakewell reported, "We stood dumbfounded by the sensational nature of what was before our eyes. The names of Jesus, Joseph and Mary are luminous with meaning for anyone brought up in the Christian tradition. Our find will renew the debate of the Resurrection and deepen the mystery surrounding Easter".



As it was, the broadcast did not provoke much "debate" since there was not much for anyone to challenge - the first-hand evidence had been presented for all to see. However, it did create a huge interest, with the Irish Times reporting, "Hundreds of excited journalists and archaeologists have converged on a dusty, airless basement of the Israel Antiquities Authority for a glimpse".



A few stalwart theologians, led by the Dean of Lichfield (a member of the Church Doctrines Committee), raised voices of protest, but they were very much in the minority. Some others criticised the BBC for filming relics in Israel when there was a war going on there, and a more current story to cover. However, the BBC pointed out that the Jesus mystery was by far the longer running story, and the vast majority of people (as proved by the substantial ratings, press correspondence and complimentary reviews) were very appreciative of the long-sought information

"fearing God" means respecting him and being in awe of him. not literally like "im shaking, please dont hurt me" fear.

That's a stupid argument. I can't prove it, but neither can you. Ha ha i win? I'm sorry, if science worked like that, we'd be screwed.

The remains of just about every historical figure in history have been found and recorded in some way, but Jesus, nope.

What utter nonsense. The location of the remains of most historical figures are unknown, including many who lived well documented lives in the 20th century.

Read the article.

"fearing God" means respecting him and being in awe of him. not literally like "im shaking, please dont hurt me" fear.

How do you know? Given that the supposed punishment for not following his commandments to the letter is eternal hellfire and damnation, which is quite a fearsome concept, then why do you choose the first meaning instead of the second? Again, I'm not being confrontational, but this is an important point and pivotal in any search for God. Which God do you demand?

Pah. Chess, you are NOT the only person who offered a rebuttle. Only one person acknowledged mine, not that I'm surprised.

I have another comment. ;)

"Athiests don't believe in god. So doesn't that mean they have no belief to believe in?"

Incorrect. Why does there have to be a God for there to be belief? I believe, for instance, in reincarnation. There is no God, though, as far as I am concerned.

Theism is a belief in some form of higher power.
Atheism is the opposite. i.e. There is no higher power.

That does NOT mean that other things are not involved. Does that make sense? There are more spiritual things than just a God or no God. There's the afterlife. For instance.

There was another comment, but it's 1am, and I just got back from the bars, so I'm a smidgen (read: incredibly) drunk. ;)

Oh! Right! Reasons why a God wouldn't exist.

Well, look at it this way.

Say you're omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscentient. You can make whatever you want, you know everything that will happen, and you are everywhere.

What purpose, at all, do you have of creating an obviously inferior being? I mean, you know, for the most part (bring in Free Will and it throws a wrench in the gears, but you still know, for the most part, what they'll do), what they'll do, etc. Anything they could create for you, you could create. Anything they could do for you would be an excercise in boredom for you. WHAT PURPOSE do you have?

Well, to draw a logical conclusion: Why do nerds get ant farms? They know what the ants will do: Dig and supply food for the queen. They don't need anything the ants can make, because it's useless to them. Why do they have them? Because it's cool to watch what they do.

If that is ALL you care about... what's the point? There isn't one. You obviously don't care what they'll do, hence the whole purpose behind the whole "bible" concept and "worship God or suffer eternal torment" crap is useless. It serves no purpose because you will offer nothing to these people. Period.

The chances that an omnipotent being would bother are very small.

Plus, look at it from the logical standpoint of Causality. Stuff happens, it causes a chain reaction so other stuff happens, we end up at today. If a "God" is involved, Causality is completely thrown out of whack, because the God can change things.

Does that mean there is no God? Nope, it doesn't prove a damn thing. Does it give me, and a good number of other people, reasonable doubt to suspect he doesn't? Sure does. And with a lot of other evidence AGAINST Her existance...

It all adds up. But again. Who cares? You believe he exists, MORE power to you. You succeeded where many will not. I, and many others, do not share that belief. More power to us, because the difference in viewpoints is what makes humanity so capable of excelling.

The point is moot, and the entire argument is stupid.

Me.

I understand what your saying, and the main reason why Christians go by what I stated, is through faith. Yes, i know your all thinking "faith isnt proof" but with faith, u need no proof.

Do our christian friends here believe that the Bible is completely factual?

What utter nonsense. The location of the remains of most historical figures are unknown, including many who lived well documented lives in the 20th century.

It's not "utter" nonsense, it's just highly unlikely or conclusive. Presumably, if Jesus really "rose to heaven" then he wouldn't have left any remains. If we could theoretically locate the precise tomb that he was supposedly buried in, it might be possible to find corroboration one way or the other. This still wouldn't "prove" anything, but it would be another piece of the puzzle.

There's no need to be so dismissive of the argument. It may not extend as far as Delaina would like it to, but it raises interesting questions.

Well excuse me for making the same mistake that many people in here have already made, attempting to back their beliefs without being completely informed. All I know is that God exists, now I can expect a response asking how I could know such a thing without proof. In my eyes, I don't proof past what I already believe, deal with it. I believe that I know God exists, and others believe that they know God doesn't exist, yet I remain open to changing my mind if something were to persuade me to.

What utter nonsense. The location of the remains of most historical figures are unknown, including many who lived well documented lives in the 20th century.


Like who?

Hitler?

No..we know where his bones are.

Stalin? Nope.

Kennedy? Nope.

Like who exactly?

Did Adam and Eve exist? Were they the father and mother of humanity?

I understand what your saying, and the main reason why Christians go by what I stated, is through faith. Yes, i know your all thinking "faith isnt proof" but with faith, u need no proof.

No, you don't. But you do need choice. Personal choice. I'm not attacking you, I'm a theist myself. I'm just interested in why you are making this choice in your faith, because you are. There are two options here, two interpretations and neither one is particularly "more right" than the other. So why do you make this choice?

Were Adam and Eve the first two humans on Earth?

I dont get what your saying, sorry, im a yougnin. could u re phrase that for me?

Anybody?

Were Adam and Eve the first two humans on Earth? Were they the father and mother of all humanity? I'm asking.

This is one of those subjects that regardless of who is participating in it, there will be no point in continuing it. Why, do you say? Let's change the appearance of the argument into something a little more tangible. Okay, let's say atheism is vanilla ice cream. Christianity is chocolate ice cream. I say that vanilla is the way to go. Why? I don't know, because it is. You say chocolate is the best. Why? Again, we don't know. There's no real way to gauge it. It's all subjective -- purely opinion and beliefs. Sure, some people have their so-called proof for both sides. But what's the point in arguing when it will lead nowhere?

P: thats what the chritisn faith believes, yes. but its open to objection by some others on this board.

Do our christian friends here believe that the Bible is completely factual?

I don't. I have no idea about anyone else. The Bible is a source of inspiration, but like religion, it is merely a tool. Any actual divinity in it has passed through the corporeal senses of mankind, so is at least one step removed from it's source. I read the Bible, but then I let my own spiritual connection with what I consider God help me interpret what I read. It's a mantra, a point of focus for meditation, a koan, a tool. Nothing more.

One of the teachings of Jesus was to warn us against taking the rules to be the whole. The spirit behind the rules is what's important.

Personally I have no idea, I (call me a bad Christian) have taken sort of a neutral standpoint on the whole creation of man thing.

"yet I remain open to changing my mind if something were to persuade me to."

I commend you for that, but at the same time, I still don't understand why people bother in either direction. Why SHOULD I convince you that God does not exist? Does it make your life better? Same thing for otherwise.

It doesn't affect your life, or anyone else's life, one iota.

I don't believe in God, but I've read the Bible. Five times. Reading it as a book of fiction is the best way, imho, to read it, because the moral stories that it carries are pertinent whether or not you believe in God.

Love thy neighbor, treat people how you want to be treated, do not kill, don't hurt others, offer compassion, be forgiving before judging...

These are all GOOD Things, whether or not you believe in God, that ALL people should live their lives by.

Beyond that, who the hell cares what anyone thinks? Be a good person. The rest is entirely up to you.

Like I said, the whole "There is a God!" "No there isn't!" argument is stupid.

Leave it alone, believe what you want to believe, and move on. IF you're being a good person, who cares what you believe?

Me.

I appreciate what you guys have to say, but I was looking for an answer from a believer.

This is one of those subjects that regardless of who is participating in it, there will be no point in continuing it. Why, do you say? Let's change the appearance of the argument into something a little more tangible. Okay, let's say atheism is vanilla ice cream. Christianity is chocolate ice cream. I say that vanilla is the way to go. Why? I don't know, because it is. You say chocolate is the best. Why? Again, we don't know. There's no real way to gauge it. It's all subjective -- purely opinion and beliefs. Sure, some people have their so-called proof for both sides. But what's the point in arguing when it will lead nowhere?

But surely, to use your metaphor, your preference for vanilla must be based on something? Otherwise, how do you know it's really a preference? You could wake up one morning and suddenly chocolate is better than vanilla. Or what if someone came along with strawberry or rocky road?

Okay... let's prove it once and for all...

Okay 'God', your turn to post.... this is your chance, prove you exist....

come on, i dare you...

no reply?

Thou shalt not test the Lord.
If anyone wants proof that He exists, just ask Him to prove it. Be open minded. Asking God to prove His existence is not testing Him either.

Hmmm...you sure as hell sound like a christian with the "now try to prove me wrong"...atheists are not stupid. People who believe in god, have no evidence that he does exist. Neither do atheists, so they have no reason to beleive in god. Because there is no scientific reason to do so...but if there were undeniable evidence that god exist (which there never will be) and they still didn't beleive god exists, then they would be pretty stupid.

I myself sit on the edge of agnostic, and atheist.


If God exists (which I believe he does), there will be undeniable evidence at the Second Coming. And if you still don't believe by then, it will be way too late.

Perhaps the argument I was about to make was best made in the creation vs. evolution forum. Tah tahhhh all.

Hmmm...you sure as hell sound like a christian with the "now try to prove me wrong"...atheists are not stupid. People who believe in god, have no evidence that he does exist. Neither do atheists, so they have no reason to beleive in god. Because there is no scientific reason to do so...but if there were undeniable evidence that god exist (which there never will be) and they still didn't beleive god exists, then they would be pretty stupid.

I myself sit on the edge of agnostic, and atheist.


If God exists (which I believe he does), there will be undeniable evidence at the Second Coming. And if you still don't believe before then, it will be way too late.

Gah, why do I continue. Oh right, because false logic is irritating.

"Thou shalt not test the Lord.
If anyone wants proof that He exists, just ask Him to prove it. Be open minded."

You realize that you just said "Don't test the Lord. Now test him."

Hypocracy is bad for you.

Me.

"yet I remain open to changing my mind if something were to persuade me to."

I commend you for that, but at the same time, I still don't understand why people bother in either direction. Why SHOULD I convince you that God does not exist? Does it make your life better? Same thing for otherwise.

It doesn't affect your life, or anyone else's life, one iota.

I don't believe in God, but I've read the Bible. Five times. Reading it as a book of fiction is the best way, imho, to read it, because the moral stories that it carries are pertinent whether or not you believe in God.

Love thy neighbor, treat people how you want to be treated, do not kill, don't hurt others, offer compassion, be forgiving before judging...

These are all GOOD Things, whether or not you believe in God, that ALL people should live their lives by.

Beyond that, who the hell cares what anyone thinks? Be a good person. The rest is entirely up to you.

Like I said, the whole "There is a God!" "No there isn't!" argument is stupid.

Leave it alone, believe what you want to believe, and move on. IF you're being a good person, who cares what you believe?

Me.

I agree with you that, if it's an "argument" then it's pointless. No one is going to miraculously change anyone's point of view. However, if it's a discussion, a comparison, a sincere desire to understand one small part of the myriad pathways of human belief, then there can be some good in it. An establishing of empathy, a seed of possibility might be planted that makes someone look more closely at their beliefs and why they hold them. Nothing bad can come of that, surely.

Hmm.

Theories based on facts, and religions based on pure faith.

I'll take theories based on facts.

God is based on blind faith. You don't need, or shouldn't need, any proof whatsoever to convince you He exists. You are simply meant to believe in Him.

With science, we run experiments. We hunt for clues. We infer, we extrapolate. We don't always have direct, indisputable proof of everything. But we base our hypothesis on facts, things we can see with our own eyes.

On the other hand, religious hypothesis are based largely on 'pure' faith, without the need for facts.
:headbang:
Science is a belief system based on the idea that our "clues" and "experiments" actually prove something.

Newton thought up some laws of physics...how do you know they are true.

you have to be quite ignorant to think that you will have any understanding of the universe in your life time.

You can never be certain of anything, you can only believe in something.
I really hate that.

I just don't see how someone could believe one part of a book to be true and throw away the other parts that didn't suit them, make sense or seem realistic. How can you believe Jesus is the son of God and will one day return to restore Heaven on Earth if you do not believe the creation story? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Burden of proof rests upon those who make a claim, rather than those trying to disprove a claim. In other words, it's for religious people to prove that their deities exist, rather than for atheists to prove they don't.

"I agree with you that, if it's an "argument" then it's pointless. No one is going to miraculously change anyone's point of view. However, if it's a discussion, a comparison, a sincere desire to understand one small part of the myriad pathways of human belief, then there can be some good in it. An establishing of empathy, a seed of possibility might be planted that makes someone look more closely at their beliefs and why they hold them. Nothing bad can come of that, surely."

Which is fine and dandy in theory. However...

Anything tht a person feels strongly about, Religion being the most primary, is something that "discussion, comparison, and a sincere desire to understand one small part of" is not only implausible, it is impossible.

Passion, which is the strongest vice of man, and the greatest thorn in the side of man's ability to reason, will always overtake logic in such discussions, and, like this thread, such discussions quickly become arguments.

So what's the point?

Me.

Yet there's no way you can proof him.
No there isn't. That doesn't mean we should be going around forcing other people to adopt our beliefs. My complaint, is that athiests get away with jamming their views down people's throats. Granted, not athiests do, but there a lot, in the US, that do.
I was going to point this out in another thread, but couldn't cause my nation was deleted, but:
in response to the person who said the 9th circuit court removed god from the pledge of allegiance.
Well, I was going to say that the US Supreme Court over turned that decision and said having the words "under God" did not violate the seperation of church and state.
Further, (for Attican Empire and others like him who believe athiests can do no harm whatever), there are extremist athesits just as there are extremist christians and extremist muslims.
You protest as much as you want about athiesm not being a religion, but it is just as much a belief system as christianity, ilsam, judaism, wiccaism, or hinduism are. And it has its share of extremist who want to strip americans of their freedoms. To say there are no extremist atheists is the same as living in fantasy land.

If God exists (which I believe he does), there will be undeniable evidence at the Second Coming. And if you still don't believe before then, it will be way too late.

That seems to be a very cruel God. Why would he abandon his creation until the hour of it's judgement and then hold it accountable for not believing in him when he never gave it any reason to?

See, Masee. This is the point I was trying to make. You must choose your Gods wisely and then you must know why you have chosen them.

My arguments were against those claiming that athiests never do any harm.
And I and my friend went after them, just as tore into the christian extremists in the several articles I wrote and had published.
Like the extremist athiests on this board and their friends, the extremist christians and their friends tried to wage war on me and lost.
I am opposed to all extremism.
I don't give a damn if you are christian, muslim, or atheism. If I think your extremism is getting to be a threat, I will denounce it regardless of the consequences.
THough, having a nation deleted can hardly be considered a serious consequence.

No, you don't. But you do need choice. Personal choice. I'm not attacking you, I'm a theist myself. I'm just interested in why you are making this choice in your faith, because you are. There are two options here, two interpretations and neither one is particularly "more right" than the other. So why do you make this choice?

u never answered me, i dont undertand what your asking, could u rephrase this??

:headbang:
Science is a belief system based on the idea that our "clues" and "experiments" actually prove something.

Newton thought up some laws of physics...how do you know they are true.

you have to be quite ignorant to think that you will have any understanding of the universe in your life time.

You can never be certain of anything, you can only believe in something.
I really hate that.


Yeah...thought them up. Yeah.

I have some choicer words for you, but I'll restrain myself. Just do yourself a favor and learn what a fact is.

"I just don't see how someone could believe one part of a book to be true and throw away the other parts that didn't suit them, make sense or seem realistic. How can you believe Jesus is the son of God and will one day return to restore Heaven on Earth if you do not believe the creation story? It just doesn't make sense to me."

Uh, not to be silly. But how do you feel about the Theory of Relativity?

How much of it do you understand, honestly?

And how much of it do you hold true and how much of it do you throw away?

These are weighted questions.

Me.

I cannot give someone who does not believe in God an answer that they will accept. Because of my faith, I believe that I didn't choose this path of belief, God chose it for me. What I do with it though, I believe at least, is for me to decide. For you, someone who doesn't quite understand why I made the decision, a reasonable explanation would be that, I just wanted to. Free will allowed me to do it, and the imperfection of my humanity allowed me to be fooled into doing it. Choose whichever you like, but I will stand by my beliefs for now.

o i didnt see that post, of course, its completely up to you. no one can change your opinions or religion but yourself.

"I agree with you that, if it's an "argument" then it's pointless. No one is going to miraculously change anyone's point of view. However, if it's a discussion, a comparison, a sincere desire to understand one small part of the myriad pathways of human belief, then there can be some good in it. An establishing of empathy, a seed of possibility might be planted that makes someone look more closely at their beliefs and why they hold them. Nothing bad can come of that, surely."

Which is fine and dandy in theory. However...

Anything tht a person feels strongly about, Religion being the most primary, is something that "discussion, comparison, and a sincere desire to understand one small part of" is not only implausible, it is impossible.

Passion, which is the strongest vice of man, and the greatest thorn in the side of man's ability to reason, will always overtake logic in such discussions, and, like this thread, such discussions quickly become arguments.

So what's the point?

Me.

Because if we don't try then we admit we are no better than our basest passions? We lay down any sort of possibility for higher reasoning because we might not be capable of keeping our cool?

I never said it was easy, but that doesn't give us the right to just say it's pointless and not even try.

Atheists think YOU'RE stupid.

But that goes both ways, Nothing and Noone but me can sway my opinions of my Lord and Savior.

Uh, not to be silly. But how do you feel about the Theory of Relativity?

How much of it do you understand, honestly?

And how much of it do you hold true and how much of it do you throw away?

These are weighted questions.

Me.

Thank you, I actually do know a fair amount of the Theory of Relativity. And for that, there's plenty I don't understand. But theories such as this are open to debate and change. Scientists are still finding holes in that theory. It's still open to undergo tests. Is the Bible?

So perhaps, there are aspects of the Bible that defy explanation. That's fine, if you believe that.

All I'm asking is, do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first two humans on earth?

I just don't see how someone could believe one part of a book to be true and throw away the other parts that didn't suit them, make sense or seem realistic. How can you believe Jesus is the son of God and will one day return to restore Heaven on Earth if you do not believe the creation story? It just doesn't make sense to me.

How do you rarify the conceptualization of an atom? Initially, they thought they were hard granular little things. Further exploration showed them to be more empty space than matter. Even further exploration shows them to be more clouds of energy potentialities rather than anything truly "solid."

If you assume a living God, then you must also assume an ongoing revelation. Otherwise, you have established a situation akin to a parent giving birth to a child and then doing absolutely nothing to provide for it's well being.

Like who?

Hitler?

No..we know where his bones are.

Stalin? Nope.

Kennedy? Nope.

Like who exactly?


Glenn Miller is one that springs to mind. I daresay there are others, although I haven't bothered looking into it that much, and don't really intend to.

But now I am condemned for attacking athiest extremism.

"Because if we don't try then we admit we are no better than our basest passions? We lay down any sort of possibility for higher reasoning because we might not be capable of keeping our cool?

I never said it was easy, but that doesn't give us the right to just say it's pointless and not even try."

I would like to point out something. I like you. ;)

Anyway, there's a certain logic in the teachings of Sun Tzu, one that is very carefully ignored by most people who say they understand the military strategies he had. He didn't lose often for one important reason.

Know your faults, know what battles you can win, pick your battles wisely.

Picking this sort of a battle on a web forum is useless. The people who make the most sense, on either side, are going to be quietly ignored because of the belligerant idiots that will constantly try to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over and over and over, even though they're the most simplistic, low-level comprehension questions, and the people who make good points and ask difficult questions will always be ignored for two reasons.

1. The hard questions make the opposition look weak when they have to say "I don't know." No one likes looking weak. Even if a sign of strength is showing weakness.

2. The people who make the best points are usually less adamant about their points being heard. They'll make the point, sometimes two or three times, and drop it. They won't have 8 "Anyone? C'mon. Someone?" posts following up the baseline question that everyone and anyone with a clue, and any debating skills or higher intelligence whatsoever, have already seen a thousand times and know the view of both sides very well on.

Know what I mean? :)

Me.

Im out. Bye

That was a fine piece of rhetoric that made absolutely no sense whatsoever to my argument.

But surely, to use your metaphor, your preference for vanilla must be based on something? Otherwise, how do you know it's really a preference? You could wake up one morning and suddenly chocolate is better than vanilla. Or what if someone came along with strawberry or rocky road?

All I can think is that I'm making myself crave ice cream ... but what I'm saying is it's all a matter of what people choose to believe. Two different people could try the same ice cream and have to entirely different perceptions about it. One might love it, the other might hate it. The argument would be a waste of each other's time because there's no way to persuade the other person to change their preference. You can't tell me that chocolate is better than vanilla without me telling you vanilla is better than chocolate or strawberry or rocky road ... I won't tell anyone that atheism is the way to go, and I would hope no one would try to force their beliefs on me. Because my argument will always be the same ... vanilla's better ...

"Thank you, I actually do know a fair amount of the Theory of Relativity. And for that, there's plenty I don't understand. But theories such as this are open to debate and change. Scientists are still finding holes in that theory. It's still open to undergo tests. Is the Bible?

So perhaps, there are aspects of the Bible that defy explanation. That's fine, if you believe that.

All I'm asking is, do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first two humans on earth?"

Ok, you've done nothing but prove the point I was making. The Theory of Relativity is open for Question. So... why not the Bible? We've found holes in portions of Relativity and we have thusly discounted them, does that make the ENTIRETY of Relativity moot and useless? Or just the parts we've discounted?

Why is the Bible any different?

As an atheist, and from when I was once a deist. Who cares if Adam and Eve were? And, technically, Adam was the Second, Eve was the Third. You neglect Lilith. As most do.

Me.

Burden of proof rests upon those who make a claim, rather than those trying to disprove a claim. In other words, it's for religious people to prove that their deities exist, rather than for atheists to prove they don't.

Precisely ... I'm a journalism major. And such is the life of a journalist - it's too easy. Why? Because in a libel suit (where someone sues a newspaper or other form of media of slandering, etc.) that person who is sueing (sp.?) must at least prove that what they were accused of is not true. And if they can't come up with enough proof to disprove it, the entire case is thrown out. So I will go through life with my point of view, waiting for the day that the proof is thrown at me. Until then, I'll see things my way.

That was a fine piece of rhetoric that made absolutely no sense whatsoever to my argument.
? who is that targeted at?

Alright, I have said all I have to say, so for those of you who heard what I spoke of, thank you for taking to time to hear me out. For those of you who passed over it for whatever reason, well it doesn't matter to me. Goodbye.

BOTH SIDES OF THIS ARGUEMENT ARE WORTHLESS!
http://www.necrobones.com/mythos/images/cthulhu.jpg

"Because if we don't try then we admit we are no better than our basest passions? We lay down any sort of possibility for higher reasoning because we might not be capable of keeping our cool?

I never said it was easy, but that doesn't give us the right to just say it's pointless and not even try."

I would like to point out something. I like you. ;)

Anyway, there's a certain logic in the teachings of Sun Tzu, one that is very carefully ignored by most people who say they understand the military strategies he had. He didn't lose often for one important reason.

Know your faults, know what battles you can win, pick your battles wisely.

Picking this sort of a battle on a web forum is useless. The people who make the most sense, on either side, are going to be quietly ignored because of the belligerant idiots that will constantly try to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over and over and over, even though they're the most simplistic, low-level comprehension questions, and the people who make good points and ask difficult questions will always be ignored for two reasons.

1. The hard questions make the opposition look weak when they have to say "I don't know." No one likes looking weak. Even if a sign of strength is showing weakness.

2. The people who make the best points are usually less adamant about their points being heard. They'll make the point, sometimes two or three times, and drop it. They won't have 8 "Anyone? C'mon. Someone?" posts following up the baseline question that everyone and anyone with a clue, and any debating skills or higher intelligence whatsoever, have already seen a thousand times and know the view of both sides very well on.

Know what I mean? :)

Me.

For that, I like you. It's funny, I never saw it that way. I like to think that everyone's just crazy and those who aren't just smile and nod and laugh at the crazy people. But then again, that's just me.

Holy crap. This topic is growing too fast for me to keep up with it. But for any athiests who read this post: a challenge. About 98% of the posts against theism have been scoffing at the factual ridiculousness of faith. But can any of you atheists think of a practical reason not to believe in God, pursuit of the truth aside? I can't, and that's why I'm a Christian. By the way, you can't say things like "it gets you into wars," because that's a disadvantage of joining a church, not a disadvantage to faith in its most basic form. If you can't reply to that point, then you really have nothing to back up your case.

atheists are no more stupid than any theist. most atheists I know have nowhere near the zeal in spouting their opinions than most religious fanatics

"Because if we don't try then we admit we are no better than our basest passions? We lay down any sort of possibility for higher reasoning because we might not be capable of keeping our cool?

I never said it was easy, but that doesn't give us the right to just say it's pointless and not even try."

I would like to point out something. I like you. ;)

Anyway, there's a certain logic in the teachings of Sun Tzu, one that is very carefully ignored by most people who say they understand the military strategies he had. He didn't lose often for one important reason.

Know your faults, know what battles you can win, pick your battles wisely.

Picking this sort of a battle on a web forum is useless. The people who make the most sense, on either side, are going to be quietly ignored because of the belligerant idiots that will constantly try to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over and over and over, even though they're the most simplistic, low-level comprehension questions, and the people who make good points and ask difficult questions will always be ignored for two reasons.

1. The hard questions make the opposition look weak when they have to say "I don't know." No one likes looking weak. Even if a sign of strength is showing weakness.

2. The people who make the best points are usually less adamant about their points being heard. They'll make the point, sometimes two or three times, and drop it. They won't have 8 "Anyone? C'mon. Someone?" posts following up the baseline question that everyone and anyone with a clue, and any debating skills or higher intelligence whatsoever, have already seen a thousand times and know the view of both sides very well on.

Know what I mean? :)

Me.

I see what you're saying and, I suppose, I do agree with you. It just seems that...I don't know. Like the saying goes, "Arguing on the Internet is like competeing in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."

I like you as well and think you express your views excellently and, as a theist, I completely respect them. Theism and atheism don't necessarily have to be at one another's throats. There's much to be learned from both sides.

Perhaps I just like to hear the sound of my own voice, but part of my spiritual belief is the importance of sharing, of explaining myself, not in a way which mandates others must believe the exact same thing or they are somehow lesser, but just an expression of the amazing power that is human belief. I do believe God exists, although I will never be able to know what that statement really means in this lifetime, but I also believe that, in a very real way, not just metaphorically, we create our own God. Our own vision of divinity (at least those of us who walk that particular path do). We carve it out with our belief and breathe life into it with our faith and if we are proud of that creation, that understanding, that one small part of the vast whole that we can never hope to comprehend, then we should be willing to share it. Not in an oppresive way, but with a childlike innocence, simply saying, "Look what I can do! Now show me what you can do!"

It is, perhaps, too much to expect. But I'm not willing to give up on it just yet.

Glenn Miller is one that springs to mind. I daresay there are others, although I haven't bothered looking into it that much, and don't really intend to.


Thats becuase Glenn Millers plane went down over the english channel.
Its not the same thing.
The idea that such an important person's remains could simply vanish, is preposterous.
There would be some mention at least, as to what was done with it.

My theory is that the Disciples disposed of his corpse in an unmarked grave, so as to further the myth of his "ressurection".

Holy crap. This topic is growing too fast for me to keep up with it. But for any athiests who read this post: a challenge. About 98% of the posts against theism have been scoffing at the factual ridiculousness of faith. But can any of you atheists think of a practical reason not to believe in God, pursuit of the truth aside? I can't, and that's why I'm a Christian. By the way, you can't say things like "it gets you into wars," because that's a disadvantage of joining a church, not a disadvantage to faith in its most basic form. If you can't reply to that point, then you really have nothing to back up your case.
I have nothing against a god...I have everything against what mankind tells me that god must be. Its easier just to say that I'm an athiest and call it a night.

Adam and Eve could have possibly been the first to humans, maybe not. The Bible goes into depth about them because Jesus is their descendent. No really other reason than that....

Also, most scientist believe that some sort of "higher" intelligence exists, some sort of omnipresent being. Maybe not the way the bible says though. The creation of the universe through the theory of evolution is much to chancy not to have been.

Also keep in mind that evolution has been distorted by the media. Humans did NOT COME FROM APES, humans and apes came from a common ancestor. Thats what darwin believed. Also if someone ever starts talking about the Miller-Uray experiment, ignore them. That load of bull has been proven wrong so drastically is sick, and by another scientist too.

I am atheist because I am secure enough not to need to believe that "god loves me'. And because I am responsible, when I do something wrong to say "Shit, I screwed up. Sorry", rather than try and rationalise and justify it like some sort of small shrew (ie, a weasel). And because I have never been given any reason to believe in any god. And because I see the sickening state that most organised religion is in, and the way that most religeous people really, *really* close themselves off from any alternative (the 'creationalism vs. evolution' thread is a *great* example, considering how many people are trying to use ignorance as proof - all on the creationalists side). The benefits include, but are not limited to: Being able to be truly open minded (sure, there may be a God. You want to believe that, fine. I don't really mind whether you do or not), being able to take credit for when I do things right (since God plays no part in my actions), being able to front up and take responsibilty (no "The Devil made me do it" bullshit excuses for me), more free time (no church, no praying, no religious rites of any kind), and others which I can't be bothered listing because I have a headache.

Yes, if the day comes when I see *any* benefit to believeing in something that in, for all intents and purposes, intangible, I'll change my mind. But what *won't* change my mind is morons saying "We believe in something and you don't, so you prove that we are wrong (which is logically impossible, since you cannot prove that something can't happen/exist anyway) while we sit on our lazy arses feeling superior". Fuck that.

Believe whatever you want, but don't expect anyone else to be swayed by your arguments if you can't work on the same scale of proof (in this case, scientific) as them. And don't "give us chances to believe". We already *have* the chance to believe, have *chosen* not to, and you aren't some sort of chance-meting-deity anyway. Why not just post a list of books for people *interested* in learning about religion to read? Let us make up our own minds about your so-called God.


Oh, and could all you religiously minded people list the benefits of believing in the intangible please? Since I went ahead and posted the benefits of *not* believing in the intangible, and all.

Aha! Therein lies the error of atheism, CSW. I make a good point, and all you can come up with is "it's easier to be atheistic and call it a night." Go ahead, it's ok by me. But unless someone can give me something better than that, no atheist has any right to be arguing that his beliefs are correct. All good assumptions have a base in something more than being easy.
edit- Oh, yes. I forgot to list the benefits of believing in God. If you are the wishy-washy type, it gives you a bit of extra incentive to do the right thing. And if not, it at least gives you something extra to hold onto just in case everything goes to hell, 'scuse the pun. And anyone who says they don't need support in times of crisis is either extremely arrogant or in denial. And believing in God doesn't mean spending your life preparing for judgement or any such nonsense. That's the great thing about God; he can't be proven, so you get to pick and choose the parts that make you a better person while disregarding the rest as rubbish. To me, that's a win-win situation.

Aha! Therein lies the error of atheism, CSW. I make a good point, and all you can come up with is "it's easier to be atheistic and call it a night." Go ahead, it's ok by me. But unless someone can give me something better than that, no atheist has any right to be arguing that his beliefs are correct. All good assumptions have a base in something more than being easy.

I'm not arguing that my beliefs are any more correct then yours.

Guys, can't we just agree to disagree?

It has nothing to do with whether or which faith to beleive in, it isn't atheists, or christians being stupid for being that. The point is, any organized religion that dictates to you how you are supposed to have your own faith, is quite rediculous. The real problem isn't with what religion, but with religion in general.

Ok, I'm about done with this thread, I would just like to mention that there are a few people here, Berklyvania, and Dela... ahh.. heck. I forgot how to spell your name... Delaina.. You two are the main reason I kept in this thread. Talking to you was quite enjoyable, and I hope the two of you read that and understand that praise is not something I send often. (I hate humans. They're annoying. ;) )

I do enjoy intelligent discourse, and you two had it in droves, without being condescending. Thank you both very much, and I hope to talk with you more in the future.

I, however, need to fall unconscious, the alcohol has convinced my liver that it needs a nap. And I have to work in the morning. ;)

Night all.

Me.

Guys, can't we just agree to disagree?
Good point, no one is going to persuade any one here to adopt their view.

All I can think is that I'm making myself crave ice cream ... but what I'm saying is it's all a matter of what people choose to believe. Two different people could try the same ice cream and have to entirely different perceptions about it. One might love it, the other might hate it. The argument would be a waste of each other's time because there's no way to persuade the other person to change their preference. You can't tell me that chocolate is better than vanilla without me telling you vanilla is better than chocolate or strawberry or rocky road ... I won't tell anyone that atheism is the way to go, and I would hope no one would try to force their beliefs on me. Because my argument will always be the same ... vanilla's better ...

I see what you're saying and I agree with it. I can't "make" you change your tastes, nor would I want to. Where's the fun or adventure in life if everyone liked vanilla? What's the point to that?

I think, though, there is a fundamental difference between embracing theism and ice cream. Not to lessen your point, which is very apt, just that human belief is a powerful thing and I think, in a way, and I could be wrong, that to simply say, "It's just that way so leave it at that," is to ignore the power and the wonder of the possibilities. People chose to believe things. Even if it's not a conscious choice, belief is a gift. It's an action and takes work. It doesn't just sustain itself.

I like vanilla ice cream. I'll like it tomorrow. I'll like it next week. Ten years from now I'll like it just as much as I like it today through no extre expenditure of effort. Belief, however, is different. What I believe now may not be what I'll believe tomorrow. The God I conceptualize today is vastly different than the God I believed in when I was a child. All along this spiritual road, I've made the choice to take the next step. I've put in the effort. Everyone has. That is the essence of my inquiry. Not that one path is better than any other, but what motivates you along your path, whatever it may be.

Holy crap. This topic is growing too fast for me to keep up with it. But for any athiests who read this post: a challenge. About 98% of the posts against theism have been scoffing at the factual ridiculousness of faith. But can any of you atheists think of a practical reason not to believe in God, pursuit of the truth aside? I can't, and that's why I'm a Christian. By the way, you can't say things like "it gets you into wars," because that's a disadvantage of joining a church, not a disadvantage to faith in its most basic form. If you can't reply to that point, then you really have nothing to back up your case.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm just lazy and am thinking "well God, you want me to believe in you, then give me a sign." But then I remember going to church and feeling like I was told what to believe and I was never asked. I was told all these ridiculous stories that seemed to have absolutely no merit. I'll tell all of you what I tell my parents (who I think are afraid of imposing their beliefs on me) -- someday I'll figure it all out. I'll figure out if God exists, if people are just all nuts that need a place to hang out together, whatever. I'm just not ready to believe that God is pushing me into certain directions and that "He" decided what will become of me. Because if you think about it, why would he want so many of us to go to Hell? If all the beliefs are true, then it wouldn't be ... Hell ... for a lack of better words. It sounds more like a party to me! (j/k) ... These are all my random thoughts btw, more rhetorical questions for myself. But back to what I was getting at. If it were all true, there would be more people going to Hell than Heaven. Something's wrong in this equation.

Reread my now edited post. After you do that, I tell you to discard the whole part about hell because it's bs. See how wonderful the system is?

Oh, and could all you religiously minded people list the benefits of believing in the intangible please? Since I went ahead and posted the benefits of *not* believing in the intangible, and all.

I'm only going to address the last part of your post because I'm trying to create a tone here and I'm not sure I can word my reply deftly enough to the first part of your post to avoid argument.

I can tell you the benefits of believing in something. We all do, you know, even if it's just in ourselves. It's a defining characteristic of humanity. Not necessarily belief in God, but belief in something.

Specifically, though, the advantages I've noticed about believing in God and actively seeking a personal connection with divinity. I understand the wonder of the human experience more deeply and the base connections between people. This is both comforting and empowering and hopeful as well. I am more inclined to be accepting of others because I realize that they have just as much knowledge and right to their opinions as I do. I am more open to possibilities and less focused on my own expectations of how the world "should be" while more accepting of it "as it is", but also of my own power to change my world. I have a deeper understanding of myself and why I do, say and feel the things I do because, when looking for God, how can you not find yourself as well?

Are all these things unique to theism? Certainly not. Do I believe that they, at least in some way, stem from "God." Yes, but that's only through my own personal experience and there's no way I can say it's is true for everyone, nor would I want to.

You guys are trying way to hard.

Reread my now edited post. After you do that, I tell you to discard the whole part about hell because it's bs. See how wonderful the system is?


Okay, so you're saying that in religion, all you have to do is pick and choose the parts you like and throw away the parts you don't. It's kind of funny how you see it. Because isn't that what atheists are doing? If we go through life as well-behaved, decent people, only choosing to neglect the presence of some higher power, shouldn't we be fine afterwards? If there is by some chance a Heaven or a Hell and we spent our lives doing whatever it is Christians do and just don't want to complicate it with such a religion, I would think that we'd have a 1 way ticket to Heaven. And if something like that would land me in Hell, I would just like to say that I've done worse things than to "live in denial". Judge me on that.

This is a stupid argument. I say that we let people believe in whatever they want to believe. Just do not try to convert others with dumb remarks like saying that there is no evolution or that god doesn't exist because you can't prove it.

No one will ever be able to prove one side or the other. The most you can do is be persuasive by combining a collection of information, be it fictional or not.

And then there are those that say "but place X really existed!!!". So what? Every book has to have a basis on reality in order to be credible.
Homer wrote about Troy in the Illiad and the Odissey and until the beggining of the 20th century everyone thought it was fictional. Well, it wasn't. It is quite possible that the war of the Trojans vs the Greeks did in fact occur.
But does this mean that the conversations between the gods that take place in the olympus really existed?

A stupid defender of Greek polytheism would say "Hey, The Illiad also talks about Troy and it really existed! That means that the greek gods exist! All hail Zeus, gatherer of clouds!"

WRONG!

Oh by the way, did you know that the bible (a book made by men, not by people with divine inspiration or angels or god) mixes the beliefs of many cultures? You know why? To convert people easily. People found familiar things to be easier to follow.

Why do you think that Christmas is so close to Yule? Why do you think we have Easter? Did you know that these celebrations coincide with the beliefs of celtic paganism?


Notice that I'm not saying that there isn't a god. Maybe, if HE exists, IT is passive and only created the laws of physics and the laws of nature, giving a boost for life to occur. Maybe SHE is now a beholder. And HE isn't liking what he sees in humans. As we destroy and ravage our natural resources, the Earth becomes inhabitable. Someday, if we do not respect the Earth, IT will get rid of us.

You should check out the "Gaia Theory". It's a very interesting theory. Google it or something.

Oh and Steffie, that's exactly my point (which I mentioned about 10 friggin pages ago). Thank you.

SteffieM: Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. But I'm also saying that there are a lot of good aspects of religion that atheists are missing out on by completely denying God in every way, shape, and form. They're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. And as for just believing that you get a 1-way ticket to heaven: if it eases your mind, so be it. But if you looked harder, there really is much more good stuff to religion than that.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm just lazy and am thinking "well God, you want me to believe in you, then give me a sign." But then I remember going to church and feeling like I was told what to believe and I was never asked. I was told all these ridiculous stories that seemed to have absolutely no merit. I'll tell all of you what I tell my parents (who I think are afraid of imposing their beliefs on me) -- someday I'll figure it all out. I'll figure out if God exists, if people are just all nuts that need a place to hang out together, whatever. I'm just not ready to believe that God is pushing me into certain directions and that "He" decided what will become of me. Because if you think about it, why would he want so many of us to go to Hell? If all the beliefs are true, then it wouldn't be ... Hell ... for a lack of better words. It sounds more like a party to me! (j/k) ... These are all my random thoughts btw, more rhetorical questions for myself. But back to what I was getting at. If it were all true, there would be more people going to Hell than Heaven. Something's wrong in this equation.

At the risk of breaking my own rule, you should never feel that you were told wha tto believe and not asked. That's the problem with the misuse of religion and the danger of church. I think you have a great attitude. Someday you will figure it out, for you. Perhaps it'll be theism, perhaps not. Whatever path you take, just make sure it's yours and you know why you are where you are. God doesn't push, at least, I don't believe it does. It's there and if you want it you can have a relationship with it that is uniquely yours and not bounded by the dogma or rules or all-too human prejudices that creep into religion and sometimes, unfortunately, into faith.

God doesn't want you to go to hell. Only we ourselves can send ourselves there, and I don't mean by not "chosing God and accepting Jesus as our savior," or anything as easy as that (although, in a way, maybe I do, that's something I'm going to have to seek clarity on, I've either just had a very interesting thought or I'm going about this the wrong way). I mean by not really knowing why we believe what we believe, hell is indecision, inaction, the utter lack of movement due to a self-imposed paralysis.

Good for you for demanding the right to explore yourself. That means, whatever journey you do take, it's yours and it will always be so and no one, no matter what they may say or do or think can ever take that away from you. That is the essence of true faith. I wish you good luck.

You guys are trying way to hard.You're not going to persuade them to stop.

You're not going to persuade them to stop.Nah.

SteffieM: Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. But I'm also saying that there are a lot of good aspects of religion that atheists are missing out on by completely denying God in every way, shape, and form. They're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. And as for just believing that you get a 1-way ticket to heaven: if it eases your mind, so be it. But if you looked harder, there really is much more good stuff to religion than that.

I'm not saying that it makes me feel better. I'm saying that I'm going through life, doing what I think is the best thing for myself. I've stopped doing bad things, not out of fear or respect for some higher being. I stopped out of respect -- get this -- for myself. I never thought I would've said that 5 years ago. But I digress. I like to think that I'm making all the right choices. And if I make a wrong one, whoopsie ... good time to fix it and try again. Isn't that what all Christians do? So the only thing I've done is to choose to live without something that supposedly chooses my life for me, because I find it to be such an incredulous idea. I have spent my entire life trying to make and prove myself in the world and I don't think that any god had any part in that. If there's a god I like to think that He, She, It would approve and would accept me later down the road if I chose to change my beliefs.

My belief that God doesn't exist, is just as unfounded as my belief that Cthulhu hasn't risen to devour mankind, and my belief that gnomes aren't living in my sock drawer. I'm denying those blindly as well.

Ph'nglui mgw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

That is the essence of true faith. I wish you good luck.

And we finally find an agreement. No, thank YOU :)

But why not believe in God at all? Forget the judgement; my God's not that cruel. Forget predestination; my God gave us free will. But isn't there something that you can get from believing in God? Security, optomism, anything? Or am I more unique than I thought I was?

...

Hmmm, the way I see it :

The Way The Rep of Komokom Sees It, A Public Service :

I'm atheist. Your of some faith.

I don't really enjoy talking about ( My lack of, technically, but your having it as well ) belief, because I really don't have an interest, and there-fore reserve the right not to have too. I do not want to be told of your faith, or have you or your friends try to convert me. This has happened, and such people usual meet with my stone like silence, till I put a glass of water over them, or chase them away from my house with a high-pressure hose. Darn'd door knockers. Leave me alone, please, the last water bill was a bit high.

Ahem, now, all your arguments fall down with me, because it is my personal choice not to have any belief in god/s ( No use being monotheistic about it if we are going to argue intangibles ) , as it is your own choice to have your beliefs.

Yet, I like the idea of free speech, and for you to practice your religion, provided it does not infringe on the rights of others in its practices. So provided you don't try to force your faith down my throat, or try to blow me up and send yourself to paradise, then I'm willing to live side by side with you, happily ever-after. Insert random fluffy pink bunny and Tony Blair forcing a smile.

Have a nice day.

Than You For Your Attention ! :D

I don't need god to give me faith or security. My beliefs that humanity has the power to become better do. And I will not lose hope or I wouldn't be here commenting it.

Believe me, if I had a reason for wanting god to exist, it would be to know that those that kill and destroy our planet for evil purposes, like to gain power and money, are all punished in the end, according to their defiling.

But why not believe in God at all? Forget the judgement; my God's not that cruel. Forget predestination; my God gave us free will. But isn't there something that you can get from believing in God? Security, optomism, anything? Or am I more unique than I thought I was?

I think I forgot to mention the reason for my atheism. Well how about a little background info about me? My mom's Jewish, right? My dad's a Methodist. Yeah ... holidays were always fun. Lighting the menorah with the grandparents and then having Christmas the next day because it was the easiest way to do it was always insane. I never got the 8 crazy nights though ... I feel so cheated ...

So I grew up going to church until I started to comprehend what was being preached in my general direction. I really felt like they were telling me what to believe. And I decided that I would go through life and weed through the lies and the BS and find out for myself what's right. And that's what I'm doing. Unfortunately being a poor college student right now doesn't leave me a whole lot of time for anything but mooching and soul searching so religion and God are kinda pushed back for a few years. I want to establish myself before I try to do anything drastic like change my beliefs.

...

Yet, I like the idea of free speech, and for you to practice your religion, provided it does not impinge on the rights of others in its practices. So provided you don't try to force your faith down my throat, or try to blow me up and send yourself to paradise, then I'm willing to live side by side with you, happily ever-after. Insert random fluffy pink bunny.

Have a nice day.

[/B]

Hehe ... you're too funny. I like the way you see things.

first off u never gave a reason why aetheists are stupid and second of all why do you need a religion? plz answer me that. :D

Well kids, I'm exhausted. All this philisophical thinking has seriously made my brain ache. How I made it through a semester of Philosophy of Ethics with an A still boggles my mind ... It might've been how I made a hypothetical situation in my test about druggies walking the streets seeing hallucinations and fearing that I might be the next one they thought was a walking hamburger ... eh ... never know. So yeah ... back to that thing called bedtime. Nighty night!

Steph

So I guess you aren't really an athiets, are you SteffieM? More like you just haven't had time to pick a God yet. The fact that you haven't gone along with one belief system or another makes me respect you very highly. Good luck with your search.
TribalE: So, you get the support you need from faith in Human Nature. Interesting. In a way, you're following my system: Believing in God, drawing on the positive aspects, and throwing out the downsides. Except that in your case, you're throwing out the idea that God is actually a single God, and replaced him with something more tangable. That's one form of atheism that I can agree with.

( face -> palm )

Oh bollocks, I just realised I'm posting as my puppet. Bloody hell.

:rolleyes:

If both of you are going to debate around in a circle for all eternity than neither side deserves to win. You guys need to see when there's a point in a argument that you're not going to change someone's point of view on something. And if you are to stupid to see that you shouldn't even be listened to. No-one's going to listen to someone say the samething over and over again. I'm surprised you guys put up with it.

I can sum up this thread like this.

Guy #1: God!
Guy #2: Atheism!
Guy #1: What I just said about God but in a different way!
Guy #2: What I just said about Atheism but in a different way!
Guy #3: Cthulhu!
Guy #1: God!
Guy #2: Atheism!
Guy #1: What I just said about God but in a different way!
Guy #2: What I just said about Atheism but in a different way!
Guy #3: Cthulhu PWNS God.
Guy #4: Cthulhu R0xoRs!
ect.

Yeah, well. I realize full well that I'm not going to change anyone's beliefs. Trying to change someone's religion through debate is like trying to kill a mosquito with a battle axe: the tool is useful sometimes, but it just isn't right for the job. I just enjoy debating as an outlet for my ideas and something to get the mind working late at night when I probably ought to be sleeping. But it looks as though the main debaters left just before they had a chance to respond to my closing post, so bed it is. Chao.

I am atheist.

I rely on science, not stories. I consider (and this may offend some of you, but this is my belief) that the Bible is fictional, as it contradicts real life findings. I put my "faith" in science. I could believe science was false, but then I would be denying truth. If somebody can prove that God exists; I will believe! I would be an idiot not to. Until then, I won't believe in him until I see him.

Someone asked why believing in God was bad. Here's what I think; I consider myself are a good person. I have lots of freinds, I help them when they are in need, I don't kill unless my livelihood is on the line (mosquitos, flies.) I grew up this way on my own, I didn't need a church, book or deity to tell me how to live my life. I taught myself right and wrong, instead of learning someone else's views of right and wrong.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need someone to tell you how to live your life! Do it yourself! Find out for yourself!

Regardless of my mostly athiestic beliefs, I always support the church, because I know that the nicest people at school and in general are deep believing christians. Although personally I have come to not believe in a god, the church's teachings of kindness and good acts are a benifit to those who do and everyone none the less.

Regardless of my mostly athiestic beliefs, I always support the church, because I know that the nicest people at school and in general are deep believing christians. Although personally I have come to not believe in a god, the church's teachings of kindness and good acts are a benifit to those who do and everyone none the less.
Yes! I agree with you there. But their beliefs are always the same. The Church's!

JUDGEMENT:

Christianity and Atheism will stay at least 500 feet from each other at all times. That is all...

personally i consider myself an "agnostic" in the sense that i make no judgement as to whether god exists - i see no evidence for either his existence or his non-existence, and therefore see no reason why i should make a decision based on this.

i may as well ask if you believe in the squorkle, without telling you anything else about it except the name.

Now you probably think I'm a crazy Christian that will talk of how you will burn in hell but thats not what I'm going to do. You cannot no matter how hard you try prove that God does not exist. You can also not prove that he does exist. You have a belief based on a hypothesis. It might no be true. Which is the same to say for all religions. So atheists are just as stupid if not dumber than those who follow a specific religion. So now it is your turn to try and prove me wrong.

Well, by reading your post i think you are a bit more stupid then the average ;)

Quox nice use of profanity that made you sound intelligent. How am I calling myself a dumbass?

The post by Quox was actually me, my friend was logged in at the time. For the record, however, I called you a dumbass and you made the statement that everyone is stupid(called yourself stupid, this is not to be confused with dumbass) by saying theists and atheists are stupid. That covers all people.

Edit: I only read up to about the fifth page so some of this may have been covered, but whoever was saying that the Bible (I capitalize just to make you christians happy) is the original proof of the existence of God fails to realize that there are pre-Judaism religious texts that speak of other god(s) and the Bible was written by man. I.E.: The Giant Frog Monster of Death and Godliness created the universe.
By writing that is there now proof of the existence of teh aforementioned creatures existence?

But why not believe in God at all? Forget the judgement; my God's not that cruel. Forget predestination; my God gave us free will. But isn't there something that you can get from believing in God? Security, optomism, anything? Or am I more unique than I thought I was?
you must not believe in the christian god, go you

I have a question for people who believe in God. What do you think of the Greeks, Egyptians or the Romans? All were polytheistic cultures, meaning they worshipped many Gods. Were they wrong? Were they mistaken when they worshipped more than one God? How do you know you aren't worshipping the wrong God?

THE POINT is that penguin kept begging for people to provce god did not exist, i was the only one to provide a rebuttle. PENGUIN STARTED IT ASKING FOR PROOF.

That was a rebuttel? I could have sworn it was just you showing us your ass.

ok... new numbering:

1) there is no proof that God exists, and those who believe in the existance of God do so by faith, either in the dogma of others or in their own gnosis.

2) there is no proof that God does not exist, and those who believe in the non-existance of God do so by faith, eithe in the dogma of others or in their own reasoning.

3) since there is no proof for or against either position, there cannot possibly be an onus on anyone who holds either position to provide any proof, since there cannot be any proof.

therefor

4) anyone who tells anyone that they must prove such a position, which can be held only by faith, is revealing an amazing amount of ignorance;

..4a) if they are responding in a sarcastic mirror-fashion to a person who has already made such a statement, they would be wise to

....4a-i) address their post to the person they are specifically responding too; and

....4a-ii) actually make use of the tools of sarcasm (as I did, at least a weak form in mimicry) rather than the inane bleating of a troll who thinks Caps Lock makes their post more persuasive (as you did).

..4b) if they require a higher standard of proof for the totally unprovable faith-based beliefs of others than they do for their own totally unprovable faith-based beliefs, they are showing a great deal of hypocricy too.

AND

5) anyone who tells anyone else, at least anyone else whose position cannot be disproven, to shut the fuck up, is not only showing ignorance but a good deal of intolerence too.

..5a) ...unless they are sarcastically mimicing what someone else has just said :P (so I still have an out :D )



OK some more stuff:

God cannot be proven to exist or to not exist, and we have never lived in a world without a Bible. Therefor, we can never and will never know whether God, assuming He exists, would have made HimSelf known to humanity through other means in an imaginary world in which the Bible does not exist.

The fact that people have (almost) always believed in some kind of diety or dieties could indicate that it is a common crutch, or (as the ECs would say) the the Devil finds ways to snare the ungodly, or it could mean that people (at least those unenlightened by French pilosophs) naturally recognize the existence of the transcendent.

As a gnostic I favour the latter explaination. I cannot prove it, but I will not "STFU", just as you will not STFU about the things that you believe and cannot prove.



OK forget the Earth's alleged core. Do you believe in black holes? You do? Have you (or anyone) ever seen one? Oh but the mathematics seems to prove that they, or something, is there, right? Have you done the math? Or do you just put faith in the reasoning of others?

Just as those who follow traditional religions put their faith in the gnosis of others.



Oh here's an even better one: have you ever seen or seen fossils of any transitional species? There is absolutely no proof that such things have ever existed. Do you believe that apes evolved from lower primates? Then where are the fossils? Nobody's ever found anything but big gaps. So since the burden is on those who believe in evolution, according to you, to prove their existance, since when there is no proof at all either way the burden is on those who say that a thing exists, over those who say it does not.

So... evolution is on pretty shakey grounds now... We must assume that there is no such thing, since there's no proof either way.



OK you know what, Chess Squares? All I am saying really comes down to this: don't be a fucking hypocrite and don't tell people who believe differently from you to "STFU" if they cannot prove their views when you cannot either.



And if you meant that in response to something that some other ignoramous said, so what? Your ignorence and intolerence were not addressed and therefor were an offence to anyone who fits into the broadly general terms of your screed.

fair enough, if the christians stop saying "prove god doesnt exist" i stop saying "prove he does"

its not mathematics to prove black holes, they have been "observed" they were noticed as "holes" in space, light would bend in weird ways or just kind of disappear at certain points


it is very hard for fossils to form, there is not a fossil of every species that ever lived, how many dinosaurs lived? millions? billions? how many skeletons do we have? pieces of thousands? and thats not even to mention all the oens DESTROYED or LOST during the fossil wars and world war 2.

and evolution is the fact that everything changes over a period of time, proven, already. the theory to make it so extreme is not the fact that it happens


and speaking of hypocritical ignorance

Just as one is self-contradictory and logically impossible, so is the other, as well as being cognitively bereft. "God" has no logical extension in reality. It's just a 3-character string. It denotes nothing real. It has many connotations, but no denotations. It's am empty set. A meaningless utterance. An emotive ejaculation.

It is the same as dskjgeaksdjksjdkg--just letters with nothing to back them up.

Yes we know your conclusion... again: you said you could prove it?

fair enough, if the christians stop saying "prove god doesnt exist" i stop saying "prove he does"

So go back and reread (assuming you ever read it) my first post in this thread. How many of "the" christians have to say that either side is unprovable before YOU stfu?

Oh here's a novel idea: why don't you stop waiting for others to stop acting like asses before you stop doing it yourself? Hey, I'll even throw you this: if you wanna say that you'll stop waiting for me to stop being an ass, and if you manage to actually quit being one yourself, I will leave you alone :)

its not mathematics to prove black holes, they have been "observed" they were noticed as "holes" in space, light would bend in weird ways or just kind of disappear at certain points

And you've seen this? Or have you just believed others who have said that they have seen it? Your faith is showing.

BTW light bending is the observable phenomenon, while black holes are the theoretical cause. Go read Hawking and Chandresakar... it IS mathematics that leads to the conclusion that black holes exist.


it is very hard for fossils to form, there is not a fossil of every species that ever lived, how many dinosaurs lived? millions? billions? how many skeletons do we have? pieces of thousands? and thats not even to mention all the oens DESTROYED or LOST during the fossil wars and world war 2.

and evolution is the fact that everything changes over a period of time, proven, already. the theory to make it so extreme is not the fact that it happens

Oh, so the reason that there has never EVER been found even a part of a fossil of any transitional species, EVER, is... WW2? Do I even have to mention how incredibly thin that argument is?

Evolution is a "fact"? Do you even know what scientific theory is? Or Ozcam's razor? And I'm sorry, but I must have missed the news bulletins... evolution has been proven? Was this announced last night while I was at work?

Oh and that last sentence... was that supposed to have some sort of meaning in English?

and speaking of hypocritical ignorance

Go right ahead... you have seen some you would like to point out?

Gah, why do I continue. Oh right, because false logic is irritating.

"Thou shalt not test the Lord.
If anyone wants proof that He exists, just ask Him to prove it. Be open minded."

You realize that you just said "Don't test the Lord. Now test him."

Hypocracy is bad for you.

Me.

That's "you shall not put the Lord to a foolish test.

You know like when you say "hey if you DO exist, prove it! Zap me with a thunderbolt!" just so you can say "See? No God!"