NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040623-0001-defensespending.html
On the rare occaision that I've watched C-SPAN, both Houses in Congress have approved funding for the Defense Department. It ensures that, most importantly, that operations in Iraq and Afghanistan recieve additional funding. Other programs it funds are the missile shield, and an important program called Future Warrior 2025. Other than that, most of the funding was just the bread and butter of the military, but at least it ensures that the military will remain strong until a year from October, when fiscal year 2006 begins.

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1) What is Future Warrior 2025?
2) I'm just glad they still haven't approved research for the mini-nukes.
3) I wonder with the M8 and M25 rifles will be done. (I think those are the numbers. They're impressive weapons.)

1) What is Future Warrior 2025?
2) I'm just glad they still haven't approved research for the mini-nukes.
3) I wonder with the M8 and M25 rifles will be done. (I think those are the numbers. They're impressive weapons.)
Yeah, nuke research, which is carried out by the Energy department, wasn't funded. However, Congress didn't fund that. Still, mini nukes deserve at least another look, as they may work as a deterant for terrorists.
Future Warrior 2025, btw, is a program that does just as it sounds. Already, we have an idea what our soldiers at that time will look like. Their uniforms will have breathable fabric, can resist heat from fires, and with emerging technology, they may be partially invisible, with the aid of fiber optics.
Biometric sensors will be dispersed everywhere, and the uniform will do some first aid work. By this time, it is also hoped that tanks will be autonomous robots, or at least that's DARPA's plan. Infantry will still be useful for intelligence and occupation, but soldiers don't need to be the slave to machinery they are now.
In short, this program ensures that a stronger, more nimble, and possibly a less lethal military will emerge by 2025.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040623-0001-defensespending.html
On the rare occaision that I've watched C-SPAN, both Houses in Congress have approved funding for the Defense Department. It ensures that, most importantly, that operations in Iraq and Afghanistan recieve additional funding. Other programs it funds are the missile shield, and an important program called Future Warrior 2025. Other than that, most of the funding was just the bread and butter of the military, but at least it ensures that the military will remain strong until a year from October, when fiscal year 2006 begins.
Great. More bombs bursting in air, while poverty rises domestically. Good plan.

Great. More bombs bursting in air, while poverty rises domestically. Good plan.
This is actually a bit less than last year, if one figures in current ops. So if we look at it from a financial point a view, less bombs are bursting. However, we need a small and nimble military for the future.

This is actually a bit less than last year, if one figures in current ops. So if we look at it from a financial point a view, less bombs are bursting. However, we need a small and nimble military for the future.
Did you know that the US spends about half of the world's total of defence spending on a yearly basis? Talk about overkill?

Did you know that the US spends about half of the world's total of defence spending on a yearly basis? Talk about overkill?

Rather have my taxes spent on a strong military then on welfare where I get no return, and I'm paying for someone else to sit on their ass and do nothing.

Rather have my taxes spent on a strong military then on welfare where I get no return, and I'm paying for someone else to sit on their ass and do nothing.
Perhaps the US overspends on military, while not investing enough in education, health care and the environment?

Not only that, but I would imagine that war upon war eventually becomes an obsession or a habit?

Perhaps the US overspends on military, while not investing enough in education, health care and the environment?

Not only that, but I would imagine that war upon war eventually becomes an obsession or a habit?

We have thrown BILLIONS into education....our kids aren't any smarter, that's a personal responsibility issue..to stay in school and desire to learn, more money can't help that...healthcare?...we already spend BILLIONS in our Medicare, Medicaid programs..so much that Medicaid patients regularly bankrupt ER facilities due to the fact that Medicaid programs pay so little, the enviroment?...Bush has set aside huge tracts of land as protected national treasures..he placed the governor of the State of NJ which has the largest amount of toxic sites waiting to be cleaned up by our Superfund as the Director for the Enviromental Protection Agency..

No...we actually spent more on non-Defense spending last budget, something we continually have done..

Rather have my taxes spent on a strong military then on welfare where I get no return, and I'm paying for someone else to sit on their ass and do nothing.
And I'd rather have my taxes spent on a system which stops people from dying, as opposed to a military which kills people. And if I were going to pour money into the military, I'd increase the pay for soldiers and put more money into healthcare for veterans.

We have thrown BILLIONS into education....our kids aren't any smarter, that's a personal responsibility issue..to stay in school and desire to learn, more money can't help that...healthcare?...we already spend BILLIONS in our Medicare, Medicaid programs..so much that Medicaid patients regularly bankrupt ER facilities due to the fact that Medicaid programs pay so little, the enviroment?...Bush has set aside huge tracts of land as protected national treasures..he placed the governor of the State of NJ which has the largest amount of toxic sites waiting to be cleaned up by our Superfund as the Director for the Enviromental Protection Agency..

No...we actually spent more on non-Defense spending last budget, something we continually have done..
Superfund has been super-underfunded and the polluters are now writing the environmental laws. More money is needed for education because in some parts of the country, class sizes are approaching 35, and often in those same parts the schools are literally falling down. And when schools fall down, so do test scores. Medicare and medicaid are necessary, no, essential, because the first responsibility of any government is to ensure that people are alive. You can't do that if you charge more for medical treatment and medical insurance than poor people are able to pay.

Superfund has been super-underfunded and the polluters are now writing the environmental laws. More money is needed for education because in some parts of the country, class sizes are approaching 35, and often in those same parts the schools are literally falling down. And when schools fall down, so do test scores. Medicare and medicaid are necessary, no, essential, because the first responsibility of any government is to ensure that people are alive. You can't do that if you charge more for medical treatment and medical insurance than poor people are able to pay.

whoa..whoa..hold on there..please point for me in the Constitution where it says the American government is responsible for your personal health?

More money?...as I have said..we have spent BILLIONS...and our kids aren't any smarter...I come from a rural school in Tennessee..our books weren't the best, and we didn't have fancy computers, but when I was a kid we wanted to learn..the same can not be said now..in this world of "I want instant everything" the youth have lost what it means to work hard for what you want in life.

The first responsibility of the government is to protect this nation...and that is in our Constitution.

whoa..whoa..hold on there..please point for me in the Constitution where it says the American government is responsible for your personal health?
I'm not talking about the constitution or the American Government, I'm talking about governments as a whole. But if you want to find where life is included as an ideal of America, try the Declaration of Independance. Its got "life" right up there with "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness". It is also in the Constitution, I'll come to that a little further down.

More money?...as I have said..we have spent BILLIONS...and our kids aren't any smarter...I come from a rural school in Tennessee..our books weren't the best, and we didn't have fancy computers, but when I was a kid we wanted to learn..the same can not be said now..in this world of "I want instant everything" the youth have lost what it means to work hard for what you want in life.
As a member of this terrible group of disaffected youths, I'm gonna take issue with this. I may not know what the magic formula for personal motivation or school spirit is, but I know that people won't learn well from a history book that doesn't know about the fall of the Communism, and from atlases which include some of these new-fangled countries like Bangladesh, and show Vietnam as one country and Korea as two.

The first responsibility of the government is to protect this nation...and that is in our Constitution.Now, I just skimmed over my copy of the Constitution, and I found nothing connected to that except this:

We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
United States of America.
Personally, I think that all those priorities appear to be on an equal footing, but even if you think that they are in order of importance, "establishing justice" still seems to come before "domestic tranquility" or "common defence". So I don't think that protecting the nation is the first priority. And right after those two comes (wait for it) "promote the general welfare". If you don't think that general welfare and being healthy are connected then... well, you have different values from me, to say the least.

I'm not talking about the constitution or the American Government, I'm talking about governments as a whole. But if you want to find where life is included as an ideal of America, try the Declaration of Independance. Its got "life" right up there with "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness". It is also in the Constitution, I'll come to that a little further down.


As a member of this terrible group of disaffected youths, I'm gonna take issue with this. I may not know what the magic formula for personal motivation or school spirit is, but I know that people won't learn well from a history book that doesn't know about the fall of the Communism, and from atlases which include some of these new-fangled countries like Bangladesh, and show Vietnam as one country and Korea as two.

Now, I just skimmed over my copy of the Constitution, and I found nothing connected to that except this:


Personally, I think that all those priorities appear to be on an equal footing, but even if you think that they are in order of importance, "establishing justice" still seems to come before "domestic tranquility" or "common defence". So I don't think that protecting the nation is the first priority. And right after those two comes (wait for it) "promote the general welfare". If you don't think that general welfare and being healthy are connected then... well, you have different values from me, to say the least.

It's obvious you skimmed over the Constitution..and "provide for the common defense" certainly implies to me that we as a nation will pay for a military, but "promote the general welfare" does not imply we will "pay" for the "individual" welfare..and my values are just fine..

And the Declaration of Independence is not the blueprint for our Government, that should have been told to you in your high school civics or history class, I'm assuming you didn't fall asleep in that class. The Declaration of Independence dealt with our separation from Great Britain....that too should have been taught to you.

Great I can't wait to put half of my taxes into an already bloated military that is used for political purposes I dont agree with, especially for things like Iraq which do nothing to ensure the safety of the United States.

Build Schools not bombs.

Great I can't wait to put half of my taxes into an already bloated military that is used for political purposes I dont agree with, especially for things like Iraq which do nothing to ensure the safety of the United States.

Build Schools not bombs.

Bloated?..is that why our 40% of the troops in Iraq are not active duty but reservist or Guard units which wouldn't have been activated had the military not been gutted after the last Gulf War....and don't like where your taxes go, then you run for office and amend the Constitution...

yep bloated - largest military on earth, with the largest budget. And they spend like there is no tomorrow, buying overpriced crap.

I think we should be able to determine what our taxes fund, and if you want your money going to defense then you can pick that and if I want mine going to healthcare and education and social services then I can choose that. Does that sound fair to you?

Actually I do hear they need more bullets..They used all the ones they had killing Iraqi's who had nothing to do with the attack on them. :rolleyes:

Actually I do hear they need more bullets..They used all the ones they had killing Iraqi's who had nothing to do with the attack on them. :rolleyes:

You'd better suggest that to the Iraqi police who are dying daily...seems the insurgents are killing more Iraqis then Americans lately...car bombs going off, assasins of government officials..seems they'd rather have chaos in their country then a stable government and an economy that needs to get righted.

You'd better suggest that to the Iraqi police who are dying daily...seems the insurgents are killing more Iraqis then Americans lately...car bombs going off, assasins of government officials..seems they'd rather have chaos in their country then a stable government and an economy that needs to get righted.

As long as the American troops stay on the ground, Iraq is being occupied.. thus they have a right to defend their country and the traitors to them who work for the Americans.. what's good for the goose is good for the gander huh.

Seems to me they aren't goign to allow the US to decide who is going to run their country. We should build up the infrastructure that we bombed and get out of there. If they blow up something we rebuilt then that is their issue to deal with after that.

So Salishe, do you think people should be able to pick what they put their tax money into?

yep bloated - largest military on earth, with the largest budget. And they spend like there is no tomorrow, buying overpriced crap.

I think we should be able to determine what our taxes fund, and if you want your money going to defense then you can pick that and if I want mine going to healthcare and education and social services then I can choose that. Does that sound fair to you?

A good portion of the money goes into liitle things..you know..like salaries..base rehabilitation construction so our troops don't have to sleep in WW2 wooden barracks...and as far as spending like there is no tomorrow, Welfare gives nothing back..no return investment..at least I get something concrete back from defense spending.

As long as the American troops stay on the ground, Iraq is being occupied.. thus they have a right to defend their country and the traitors to them who work for the Americans.. what's good for the goose is good for the gander huh.

Oh..so the Iraqi policeman who is merely directing traffic in down Tikrit deserves to be slaughtered?...and if the Americans troos left tomorrow, and they still killed Iraqis...would you then say it's ok because at least it's no longer occupied?

Seems to me they aren't goign to allow the US to decide who is going to run their country. We should build up the infrastructure that we bombed and get out of there. If they blow up something we rebuilt then that is their issue to deal with after that.

So Salishe, do you think people should be able to pick what they put their tax money into?

Always have..you pay for what you want..I'll pay for what I want..seems an equitable arrangement.

good at least you agree. I bet less people would want to fund the military with their taxes if they knew how the money was being spent, and were able to make the choice give less of their taxes to it. I think this would be good because then the military would have to budget better and there wouldn't be a bunch of money that goes unnaccounted for.

As long as the American troops stay on the ground, Iraq is being occupied.. thus they have a right to defend their country and the traitors to them who work for the Americans.. what's good for the goose is good for the gander huh.

Er, the problem is though, Steph, that they're now killing more Iraqi security people and innocent Iraqi civilians than they are American soldiers. I agree, America is still occupying, but I think you're misjudging the "righteousness" of the insurgents who are willing to kill their own countrymen who are just trying to find jobs.

Killing is wrong, Steph. We were wrong when we did it and they're just as wrong for doing it now. There is a difference between honest resistance to an occupying force and pointless rebellion and indescriminate terrorism. If the people of Iraq are so dead set against the government currently in power, then they have the opportunity next January to vote it out with no bloodshed or innocent lives lost. What these insurgents are doing is just as wrong as the American invasion.

Don't try and make a case for this, it cheapens you and your arguments.

It's obvious you skimmed over the Constitution..and "provide for the common defense" certainly implies to me that we as a nation will pay for a military, but "promote the general welfare" does not imply we will "pay" for the "individual" welfare..and my values are just fine..

And the Declaration of Independence is not the blueprint for our Government, that should have been told to you in your high school civics or history class, I'm assuming you didn't fall asleep in that class. The Declaration of Independence dealt with our separation from Great Britain....that too should have been taught to you.I'm disliking your tone here Salishe, lets try please to keep this civil.

I wasn't saying anything about welfare (as you'll notice if you read the post), I was talking about healthcare.

Yes, I am aware that the Declaration of Independance dealt with the separation of your country from my countrym, and while it is not the blueprint for your government, it is a fairly good indicator, in my opinion, of early American independantalist values (again, as I said in my post).

If it is, as you say, so obvious that I merely skimmed over the constitution, would you care to direct me to the passage you intended me to find?

good at least you agree. I bet less people would want to fund the military with their taxes if they knew how the money was being spent, and were able to make the choice give less of their taxes to it. I think this would be good because then the military would have to budget better and there wouldn't be a bunch of money that goes unnaccounted for.

I bet less people would want to fund Welfare if they could actually see how many able-bodied men and women are sitting on their asses doing nothing but collecting a check.

I agree that there are mooches but that is the exception and not the rule.

And I too would barely fund welfare as well, although I give that higher priority than the military.

I'd give welfare and military about 5% of my taxes if I had a choice.

A good portion of the money goes into liitle things..you know..like salaries..base rehabilitation construction so our troops don't have to sleep in WW2 wooden barracks...and as far as spending like there is no tomorrow, Welfare gives nothing back..no return investment..at least I get something concrete back from defense spending.Hang on, comfort and security of US troops is of paramount importance, but if people aren't in the army they can go screw themselves?

No, you don't get anything out of welfare. You know why? Because you're not a rung-and-a-half above abject poverty. But do people benefit from welfare? Of course they do, its what they feed their children on, its what keeps the heating running, its what keeps them alive, they're living from hand to mouth. You act as if everyone on welfare is sipping Chateau La Mullah '47 and smoking fine imported cigars. Welfare is the calculated absolute minimum that people need.

In the winter of 1933, thousands of people died of cold because they couldn't afford to buy coal to keep them warm. The owners of the companies who produced coal in those years made out like bandits, and now their descendants are among the wealthiest people in America. I have no qualms about sending some of the money back to the classes it came from. I don't want to see the winter of 1933 happen again.

I bet less people would want to fund Welfare if they could actually see how many able-bodied men and women are sitting on their asses doing nothing but collecting a check.

So show us. Give us some numbers, some sources, some quotes. Show us that, by and large, all welfare receipients are simply lazy. Cause until you offer up some numbers you're just blowing hot air.

I know people who have been on welfare and they are not proud of it and they were not on it for long and they most certainly weren't lazy. I also have an aunt who is unable to work do to a stroke and complications from Lupus which is currently killing her. Social Security won't give her benefits even though it takes her five minutes since the stroke two years ago to say, "Good Morning," and she can't type because the arthritis in her fingers is too bad. Welfare is all that's standing between her and starvation, so thank you for calling her lazy and overprivelledged and a drain on society for contracting this disease that no one gives a damn about and we can't cure and that has robbed a bright and vivacious women of her entire life. I'll certainly never ask for you to give money to the welfare programs that keep her fed and housed and get her medical care, such as it is. I'm sure whatever the hell you spend your dollars on is much more important.

Sometimes, Salishe, you're really an ass.

I'm disliking your tone here Salishe, lets try please to keep this civil.

I wasn't saying anything about welfare (as you'll notice if you read the post), I was talking about healthcare.

Yes, I am aware that the Declaration of Independance dealt with the separation of your country from my countrym, and while it is not the blueprint for your government, it is a fairly good indicator, in my opinion, of early American independantalist values (again, as I said in my post).

If it is, as you say, so obvious that I merely skimmed over the constitution, would you care to direct me to the passage you intended me to find?

If I sounded condescending you have my apologies and since I was unaware you were British I retract my statements regarding the Constitution..I'm sure I know as little of the Magna Carta or the British government under Cromwell.

It may indeed show less of us as a nation because we do not have it ingrained in our populace to pay for those less fortunate their ourselves..but we do have it ingrained that nothing is impossible if one sets their mind to it.. that is the essence of early American independent thinking..the early American colonists decided to create out of nothing a new nation conceived in a fashion that had never been tried in the direction we took nation-building. We, as individuals, knew what was best for ourselves and only ourselves..You work hard..you perserve..you pull yourself by your bootstraps, and you allow for the man next to you to have the same freedom to do as you did...that is the essence of American thinking.

I bet less people would want to fund Welfare if they could actually see how many able-bodied men and women are sitting on their asses doing nothing but collecting a check.
What happens if there aren't jobs for them to go to? Ignore whether or not you think this is currently the case, just answer. What happens if there aren't enough jobs?

So show us. Give us some numbers, some sources, some quotes. Show us that, by and large, all welfare receipients are simply lazy. Cause until you offer up some numbers you're just blowing hot air.

I know people who have been on welfare and they are not proud of it and they were not on it for long and they most certainly weren't lazy. I also have an aunt who is unable to work do to a stroke and complications from Lupus which is currently killing her. Social Security won't give her benefits even though it takes her five minutes since the stroke two years ago to say, "Good Morning," and she can't type because the arthritis in her fingers is too bad. Welfare is all that's standing between her and starvation, so thank you for calling her lazy and overprivelledged and a drain on society for contracting this disease that no one gives a damn about and we can't cure and that has robbed a bright and vivacious women of her entire life. I'll certainly never ask for you to give money to the welfare programs that keep her fed and housed and get her medical care, such as it is. I'm sure whatever the hell you spend your dollars on is much more important.

Sometimes, Salishe, you're really an ass.

Listen Berk..dont make this personal....I have never insinuated that every person on welfare is lazy..and I'd like to offer up numbers that would satisfy you but I'm not sure there are stats of individuals who will only use welfare for a short time...and those that are long-termed-never-getting-off types.

Disability payments are different from SSI payments..the first one such as your aunt...are unable to work...the second are paid to people who should be able to work and don't..or if they do work, choose not to do more to be able to get off welfare....and I can take you to any Section 8 housing in Nashville to prove it...Sam Levy Hills, J.C. Napier Complex..or the infamous Dodge City where even Nashville PD is hesistant to go without full backup due to the fact that the gangs pretty much control the housing projects there..

It may indeed show less of us as a nation because we do not have it ingrained in our populace to pay for those less fortunate their ourselves..but we do have it ingrained that nothing is impossible if one sets their mind to it.. that is the essence of early American independent thinking..the early American colonists decided to create out of nothing a new nation conceived in a fashion that had never been tried in the direction we took nation-building. We, as individuals, knew what was best for ourselves and only ourselves..You work hard..you perserve..you pull yourself by your bootstraps, and you allow for the man next to you to have the same freedom to do as you did...that is the essence of American thinking.

Ok, how 'bout this: I agree that its good for people to work hard and perserve, and you agree to let me give them the bootstraps?

What happens if there aren't jobs for them to go to? Ignore whether or not you think this is currently the case, just answer. What happens if there aren't enough jobs?

Life is not fair..never was and never will be..and I am unable to ignore whether or not there are jobs..there are...mebbe not high paying, mebbe demeaning...but there are jobs...

Life is not fair..never was and never will be..and I am unable to ignore whether or not there are jobs..there are...mebbe not high paying, mebbe demeaning...but there are jobs...
$6 an hour for 60 hours a week is $360. Thats 8.5 hours a day for 7 days, and that won't cover rent, food and clothes. If you have young kids, you're gonna need someone to take care of them for the 3+ hours when they're not at school and you're at work. And if they get sick, you're not going to have medical insurance. But yeah, there are jobs.

Listen Berk..dont make this personal....I have never insinuated that every person on welfare is lazy..and I'd like to offer up numbers that would satisfy you but I'm not sure there are stats of individuals who will only use welfare for a short time...and those that are long-termed-never-getting-off types.

Disability payments are different from SSI payments..the first one such as your aunt...are unable to work...the second are paid to people who should be able to work and don't..or if they do work, choose not to do more to be able to get off welfare....and I can take you to any Section 8 housing in Nashville to prove it...Sam Levy Hills, J.C. Napier Complex..or the infamous Dodge City where even Nashville PD is hesistant to go without full backup due to the fact that the gangs pretty much control the housing projects there..

Of course you did. That's all you've been doing since the start of this thread. You've been implying that welfare programs only help "able-bodied men and women who are doing nothing but sitting on their asses collecting a check." I'm sick of it. Do abuses occur? Sure. Do they occur in every gamut of life? Of course they do. We recently cut back combat pay for soldiers being shot at for "budgetary reasons" but managed to find a nice juicy contract for Halliburton to provide meals they never actually provided. Does this mean all governmental contractors are bad or we should get rid of the military? No.

What's wrong with a little goddamn compassion for your fellow man? What does it really cost you, huh? As you sit there with your computer and the ability to afford internet service, in your home, knowing where your next meal's coming from in reasonably good health, what does it really cost you? What does it really cost any of us? So some idiots get a free ride. Yeah, that sucks, but the majority of people who really do need this aid get it and that's worth putting up with a few idiots and even putting up with those idiots is better than financing some dumbass "WonderSoldier 2025" pie-in-the-sky program that let's old white men in the Pentagon cream their khakis while children are freaking starving to death in our own damn country.

I'm emotional today because my Aunt's in the hospital and we don't know how we're going to pay for it and her kidney's have shut down and we don't know if they're going to start up again and Social Security still won't classify her as disabled (and yes I'm well aware of the difference between disability and SS as we've been dealing with this mess now for freaking two years and much longer than that if you consider pre-stroke and if you want to get down to it, how about I take you with me to my aunt's blood work appointments or perhaps when she goes to the welfare office to pick up her check?) and the one source of some help we've found throughout this whole mess gets her wholesale labeled as a lazy good-for-nothing for using it because people have a problem paying for freaking food stamps but are all balls-to-the-wall gungho about paying for freaking tactical nukes.

Jesus, there is something seriously wrong with this country.

(Edited for the worst of the language. Cursing solves nothing. I'm done with this thread.)

$6 an hour for 60 hours a week is $360. Thats 8.5 hours a day for 7 days, and that won't cover rent, food and clothes. If you have young kids, you're gonna need someone to take care of them for the 3+ hours when they're not at school and you're at work. And if they get sick, you're not going to have medical insurance. But yeah, there are jobs.
Ignore this even, and just imagine that you're in a depressed area or an inner city where there literally aren't any jobs, or there aren't any jobs which are suitable for you. Should you get welfare then?

Berk, my prayers to your aunty. :)

Ignore this even, and just imagine that you're in a depressed area or an inner city where there literally aren't any jobs, or there aren't any jobs which are suitable for you. Should you get welfare then?

Sometimes you have to move to where the jobs are..simple as that..suitable doesn't come into play...if you have one job paying only $6...guess what, you get another job that pays $6 and you have 12$hr....I started my first job at $5.75hr..then chose a job working Friday nites/Sat nites..shucked corn and cut tobacco during harvest season..even sold molds and fungi to the University of Tennessee Science Dept...you can do it..the only limitations you have are the ones you place on yourself.

Sometimes you have to move to where the jobs are..simple as that..suitable doesn't come into play...if you have one job paying only $6...guess what, you get another job that pays $6 and you have 12$hr....I started my first job at $5.75hr..then chose a job working Friday nites/Sat nites..shucked corn and cut tobacco during harvest season..even sold molds and fungi to the University of Tennessee Science Dept...you can do it..the only limitations you have are the ones you place on yourself.
2 jobs at $6 for 60 hours a week?? 17 hours a day? There are limitations like "sleeping" as well a the ones you place on yourself.

Sometimes you have to move to where the jobs are..simple as that..suitable doesn't come into play...if you have one job paying only $6...guess what, you get another job that pays $6 and you have 12$hr....I started my first job at $5.75hr..then chose a job working Friday nites/Sat nites..shucked corn and cut tobacco during harvest season..even sold molds and fungi to the University of Tennessee Science Dept...you can do it..the only limitations you have are the ones you place on yourself.
And as for suitible, a job thats a 2 hr bus ride away, or means you have to work nights, when you're a single parent is not suitable for you, I don't think theres an arguement you can make about that.

And as for suitible, a job thats a 2 hr bus ride away, or means you have to work nights, when you're a single parent is not suitable for you, I don't think theres an arguement you can make about that.

As I've said before..life isn't fair..single parents shouldn't be single parents, that is a choice they made...and if you are in that position you'd best find a means for daycare while you work...parents do it..and continue to do it..just like I said..the only limitations are the ones you place on yourself.

life isn't fair and thats why some of us like to help out teh less fortunate.

not all single parents chose to be single parents, and if you really need me too I can easily think of many ways this can come aobut.

how do you pay for daycare if you are living paycheck to paycheck just to stay alive and keep you and your kid in livable conditions? sometimes people have no choice. You cant just pick up and move somewhere else when you dont have money for 1st adn last months rent... or the money for a rental van... or countless other reasons.....


Things aren't as simple as you make them sound Slaishe. I had to get food stamps while I was homeless and it sucked big time because none of my efforts on the lookout for jobs were pannign out and I would ahve starved. I eventually was able to get a job and end my food stamp support.

Welfare is necessary.

Sometimes you have to move to where the jobs are..simple as that..suitable doesn't come into play...if you have one job paying only $6...guess what, you get another job that pays $6 and you have 12$hr....I started my first job at $5.75hr..then chose a job working Friday nites/Sat nites..shucked corn and cut tobacco during harvest season..even sold molds and fungi to the University of Tennessee Science Dept...you can do it..the only limitations you have are the ones you place on yourself.


Not going to argue the point about having to work to get somewhere, or what jobs are available - just going to point out that one $6/hr job and another $6/hour job is not a $12/hour job - unles you can convince the first boss to keep paying you while you are in fact doing the second job's work. What two $6/hr jobs is - is a shitload of hours to work with neither job exceeding the mandated work weeks o you don't even get an overtime premium rate.

I've done that before. It sucked. But I needed the money.

life isn't fair and thats why some of us like to help out teh less fortunate then fine..you send your charitable donations to entities that can help out the less fortunate, but I shouldn't be made to pay for it...that's theft

not all single parents chose to be single parents, and if you really need me too I can easily think of many ways this can come aobut. lay down and choose to ignore the consequences of those actions is why you become a single parent..for those that are divorced and made single parents..which is what my mother was..she still never took WIC, welfare, or any other handout.

how do you pay for daycare if you are living paycheck to paycheck just to stay alive and keep you and your kid in livable conditionsyou're telling me you have no relatives that are stay at home moms, no close friends you could go too, and there are entities where you go to for daycare, you just have to do all you can? sometimes people have no choice. You cant just pick up and move somewhere else when you dont have money for 1st adn last months rent... or the money for a rental van... or countless other reasons.....


Things aren't as simple as you make them sound Slaishe. I had to get food stamps while I was homeless and it sucked big time because none of my efforts on the lookout for jobs were pannign out and I would ahve starved. I eventually was able to get a job and end my food stamp support.

Welfare is necessary.

Never argued that temporary welfare can be necessary..institutionalized welfare where the welfare simply goes from one generation to the next is what I have a problem with.

Not going to argue the point about having to work to get somewhere, or what jobs are available - just going to point out that one $6/hr job and another $6/hour job is not a $12/hour job - unles you can convince the first boss to keep paying you while you are in fact doing the second job's work. What two $6/hr jobs is - is a shitload of hours to work with neither job exceeding the mandated work weeks o you don't even get an overtime premium rate.

I've done that before. It sucked. But I needed the money.

But you did it right..you did what had to be done...it sucked but you did it.

whoa..whoa..hold on there..please point for me in the Constitution where it says the American government is responsible for your personal health?

More money?...as I have said..we have spent BILLIONS...and our kids aren't any smarter...I come from a rural school in Tennessee..our books weren't the best, and we didn't have fancy computers, but when I was a kid we wanted to learn..the same can not be said now..in this world of "I want instant everything" the youth have lost what it means to work hard for what you want in life.

The first responsibility of the government is to protect this nation...and that is in our Constitution.
Ahhhhh Salishe the true patriot indeed. You thump your chest with pride that your army has "liberated" the poor souls of Iraq from Saddam, and you point to how your country is helping to rebuild the infastructure that your troops destroyed. You say you are concerned about getting the poor suffering Iraqis back to employment. It doesn't matter to you that it has cost over a $120 Billion to accomplish this task to date. Meanwhile in another thread, you wanted to flatten the whole Sunni Triangle. Such hypocrisy!!

Why waste that $120 Billion on US school children, because those "kids aren't any smarter" after the "BILLIONS" already spent on them. It is better spending those dollars on a useless war in Iraq?

You say that you didn't have any "fancy computers" when you went to school, and I guess that would be due to the fact that there were NO computers back then. Today, computers are an integral part of educational equipment.

The line that gets me most in your post is:

" the youth have lost what it means to work hard for what you want in life"

Much better that they march off to Iraq where they can learn about death and suffering?

Listen Berk..dont make this personal....I have never insinuated that every person on welfare is lazy..and I'd like to offer up numbers that would satisfy you but I'm not sure there are stats of individuals who will only use welfare for a short time...and those that are long-termed-never-getting-off types.

Disability payments are different from SSI payments..the first one such as your aunt...are unable to work...the second are paid to people who should be able to work and don't..or if they do work, choose not to do more to be able to get off welfare....and I can take you to any Section 8 housing in Nashville to prove it...Sam Levy Hills, J.C. Napier Complex..or the infamous Dodge City where even Nashville PD is hesistant to go without full backup due to the fact that the gangs pretty much control the housing projects there..

You have all this going down in your own country and you want to waste $120 Billion in Iraq, instead of finding concrete solutions to your own domestic problems. I am sure that the people of Iraq thank you for your love and support?

Berk, my prayers to your aunty. :)
Yes may God be with you in your time of need Berk!!

I think some people are confused. Just because you oppose the war in Iraq, or other policy and military decisions, doesn't mean you have to support a smaller, less funded, less able military.

The primary responsibility of the US government IS to protect us on a national level. I wonder what all the anti-military spending people would have done in 1776. Boost education while the redcoats destroyed the USA before it was born?

Behind all the rhetoric is force. Without it, you won't even HAVE the luxury of robbing businessmen and wasting the money in public education.

Or as Merry said in LOTR, "there won't BE a Shire!"

Merry would have approved this budget, and I do too. Feel free to disagree, but don't disagree with a Hobbit. OK?

The first responsibility of the government is to protect this nation...and that is in our Constitution.

Amen to that!

we dont need the size of military we have right now. we dont need to be in a war with Iraq right now. it is doing NOTHING to protect Americans.

maybe we could cut out free breast implants and plastic surgery eh? :rolleyes:

we need better education (i dont see how you can think that public education is a waste) and we need cheaper healthcare.

Ahhhhh Salishe the true patriot indeed. You thump your chest with pride that your army has "liberated" the poor souls of Iraq from Saddam, and you point to how your country is helping to rebuild the infastructure that your troops destroyed. You say you are concerned about getting the poor suffering Iraqis back to employment. It doesn't matter to you that it has cost over a $120 Billion to accomplish this task to date. Meanwhile in another thread, you wanted to flatten the whole Sunni Triangle. Such hypocrisy!!

Why waste that $120 Billion on US school children, because those "kids aren't any smarter" after the "BILLIONS" already spent on them. It is better spending those dollars on a useless war in Iraq?

You say that you didn't have any "fancy computers" when you went to school, and I guess that would be due to the fact that there were NO computers back then. Today, computers are an integral part of educational equipment.

The line that gets me most in your post is:

" the youth have lost what it means to work hard for what you want in life"

Much better that they march off to Iraq where they can learn about death and suffering?

I don't have to thump my chest at all...am I proud yes..am I proud of the progress we've made in Iraq..yes...it's a long term investment so spending the 120billion in my opinion is worth it...and you're confusing one position with another...the post regarding the Sunni triangle was right after 4 Americans had been brutally and savagely murdered and mutilated..but apparently the Iraqi insurgents are more concerned now with killing Iraqis moreso then Americans now judging from latest reports.

As for the lack of computers...I don't want them to be an integral part..I want them to break down a sentence....I want them to be able to read, and learn the history of their country...learn how to do computers on their own time...Technology has replaced the need for basic learning..

And as for your last post...I can think of no other honor a young man or woman can do for their country then serve in their armed forces....military service gives pride, discipline, focus of purpose, it matures you faster then kids outside of the military..more benefits then I care to shake a stick at, and as far as killing and learning bout suffering...that's life..best to learn it early.

As for the war being useless..that is yet to be determined..if we can help establish a stable democracy in the area..the Middle East will have what none of them except Israel has had..a true Representative Democracy free of religous fanaticism or a penchant for harboring terrorists.

As I've said before..life isn't fair..single parents shouldn't be single parents, that is a choice they made...and if you are in that position you'd best find a means for daycare while you work...parents do it..and continue to do it..just like I said..the only limitations are the ones you place on yourself.
Children aren't a limitation people "place upon themselves". And even in 2 parent families, its not always easy to make ends or hours meet. The kind of conditions that people have to put themselves through to survive under those conditions... they should never have to be faced. People in medieval times had it easier, they only worked from dawn to dusk. Your defence of a system that takes parents out of the home, that takes children out of school at 16, that stops people from being anything close to all that they can be... your defence of this is "life isn't fair"?

At first I thought you were just a traditional, slightly greedy kinda guy advocating the value of work and responsibility. But actually, your ideas just seem heartless.

Never argued that temporary welfare can be necessary..institutionalized welfare where the welfare simply goes from one generation to the next is what I have a problem with.
I'm sorry, but can you please point to where in the rest of this thread you made that distinction?

You could reply to my constitutional thing as well if you felt like it.

Children aren't a limitation people "place upon themselves". And even in 2 parent families, its not always easy to make ends or hours meet. The kind of conditions that people have to put themselves through to survive under those conditions... they should never have to be faced. People in medieval times had it easier, they only worked from dawn to dusk. Your defence of a system that takes parents out of the home, that takes children out of school at 16, that stops people from being anything close to all that they can be... your defence of this is "life isn't fair"?

At first I thought you were just a traditional, slightly greedy kinda guy advocating the value of work and responsibility. But actually, your ideas just seem heartless.

Heartless..on the contrary...I am offering people the same chance I had..no more...no less...and it's not a defence..life isn't fair..care to point to me anywhere that stipulates that life is supposed to be fair?

Perhaps the US overspends on military, while not investing enough in education, health care and the environment?

Not only that, but I would imagine that war upon war eventually becomes an obsession or a habit?
According to Guiness, 4.5% of our GDP is spent in education, compared with 3.5% in defense.

I think some people are confused. Just because you oppose the war in Iraq, or other policy and military decisions, doesn't mean you have to support a smaller, less funded, less able military.

The primary responsibility of the US government IS to protect us on a national level. I wonder what all the anti-military spending people would have done in 1776. Boost education while the redcoats destroyed the USA before it was born?

Behind all the rhetoric is force. Without it, you won't even HAVE the luxury of robbing businessmen and wasting the money in public education.

Or as Merry said in LOTR, "there won't BE a Shire!"

Merry would have approved this budget, and I do too. Feel free to disagree, but don't disagree with a Hobbit. OK?
Exactly. In fact, if we factor in Iraq and Afghanistan, defense spending is actually less than last year. Last year, about $482 billion was spent. This year, it's a grand total of $417 billion. I personally hope this means that a transition from a Cold War military to a Sept. 11 military is going smoothly enough to be completed. Other than that, it will help in other programs, as our defense burden is down, but the government also has more in tax revenue.

Heartless..on the contrary...I am offering people the same chance I had..no more...no less...and it's not a defence..life isn't fair..care to point to me anywhere that stipulates that life is supposed to be fair?

Now thats just silly. You're now asking me for an unarguable treatise on life as a whole? In 7000 years of recorded human history we haven't been able to come up with that. I'm supposed to just find somewhere that *says* "life is supposed to be fair" to disprove your arguement?

Offering people the same chance you had, no more and no less. And you claim you're not striving towards equality as a goal?

According to Guiness, 4.5% of our GDP is spent in education, compared with 3.5% in defense.
Well I find that tough to believe, but even if its true, I still think that not enough is being spent on defence.

Imagine if you go off to a spa at a cost of $150. Now when you come back, your wife/husband/whatever berates you for spending so much money. And you point out that thats nothing; cos you're spending $200 on rent.

Rent is more important than a spa treatment. Education is more important than defence.

Now thats just silly. You're now asking me for an unarguable treatise on life as a whole? In 7000 years of recorded human history we haven't been able to come up with that. I'm supposed to just find somewhere that *says* "life is supposed to be fair" to disprove your arguement?

Offering people the same chance you had, no more and no less. And you claim you're not striving towards equality as a goal?

Granted..it was supposed to be silly...just as absurb as the notion that I should have to pay taxes to allow for someone capable of work to help them thru life...I don't care if the amount isn't big..or that some people say it isn't enough to live off on...I don't want to pay them ANYTHING..disabled is one thing...as Berk's family situation attests too..but welfare reciepents on the whole and the norm are not on disability..but somehow I'm supposed to continue open my pockets involuntarily ?

Granted..it was supposed to be silly...just as absurb as the notion that I should have to pay taxes to allow for someone capable of work to help them thru life...I don't care if the amount isn't big..or that some people say it isn't enough to live off on...I don't want to pay them ANYTHING..disabled is one thing...as Berk's family situation attests too..but welfare reciepents on the whole and the norm are not on disability..but somehow I'm supposed to continue open my pockets involuntarily ?Ok, if it was supposed to be silly, do you want to answer my question in a less flippant manner this time around?

Well I find that tough to believe, but even if its true, I still think that not enough is being spent on defence.

Imagine if you go off to a spa at a cost of $150. Now when you come back, your wife/husband/whatever berates you for spending so much money. And you point out that thats nothing; cos you're spending $200 on rent.

Rent is more important than a spa treatment. Education is more important than defence.
The reason why education costs aren't prominent is because the federal government spends little of it. Most is spent by states, which also regulate the schools themselves.
Now, as for the military expenditure being so high in the US, there are three reasons.
1. From a military standpoint, the collapse of the Soviet Union caused more problems than solutions. It was understood, for example, that neither side would attack the other. However, it gave each an excuse to police their own turf. Now, with the Soviet Union gone, their traditional sphere of influence has seen chaos. The rise of terrorism, the crises in Yugoslavia, even the sucessions of Namibia and Eritrea are all somehow linked to the fall of the USSR and communism.
2. We are the world's only superpower. We'd be overjoyed if other nations spent a bit more on defense, but they aren't, because they rely on the US.
3. Many in the US see the military as beneficial to society in general. The internet, GPS, and other technologies came from them. Furthermore, the Army Corp of Engineering maintains dams, levies, and canals along the Mississippi-Missouri river system.

The reason why education costs aren't prominent is because the federal government spends little of it. Most is spent by states, which also regulate the schools themselves.
Now, as for the military expenditure being so high in the US, there are three reasons.
1. From a military standpoint, the collapse of the Soviet Union caused more problems than solutions. It was understood, for example, that neither side would attack the other. However, it gave each an excuse to police their own turf. Now, with the Soviet Union gone, their traditional sphere of influence has seen chaos. The rise of terrorism, the crises in Yugoslavia, even the sucessions of Namibia and Eritrea are all somehow linked to the fall of the USSR and communism.
2. We are the world's only superpower. We'd be overjoyed if other nations spent a bit more on defense, but they aren't, because they rely on the US.
3. Many in the US see the military as beneficial to society in general. The internet, GPS, and other technologies came from them. Furthermore, the Army Corp of Engineering maintains dams, levies, and canals along the Mississippi-Missouri river system.I have to wonder why the army engineers maintain that, but thats beside the point. Yes, military advances benefit everyday life. But the fact that they came from the military doesn't mean that they couldn't or wouldn't have come from the private sector or another source further down the line.

I have to wonder why the army engineers maintain that, but thats beside the point. Yes, military advances benefit everyday life. But the fact that they came from the military doesn't mean that they couldn't or wouldn't have come from the private sector or another source further down the line.
True, but GPS required a large capital investment to launch. Hell, even the space program was helped significantly by the US Air Force, and look at where that is today. A bubble of investment is formed, and the good part about bubbles is that, even though they fade quickly, they saturate an industry with cash. Besides, after a bubble, that sector can usually stage a comeback in a decade or so. But that's beside the point.

Since this my thread, btw, I want to ask another funding question. There is a provision that even I ask myself if it is worth funding: a missile shield. Should the US attempt to build one, or should we not?

bump

Since this my thread, btw, I want to ask another funding question. There is a provision that even I ask myself if it is worth funding: a missile shield. Should the US attempt to build one, or should we not?
From a tactical point it doesn't have the use it once did. Today's enemies are going to carry their nukes in briefcases, not ICBMs. On the other hand, there's no telling what useful tech might come from it. I say give it a shot.

From a tactical point it doesn't have the use it once did. Today's enemies are going to carry their nukes in briefcases, not ICBMs. On the other hand, there's no telling what useful tech might come from it. I say give it a shot.
So do I. Besides, their is a threat from rogue states, as they develope their own missiles and nukes. It may even be possible, in the future, for terrorists to storm a missile facility in a rogue state that's in anarchy. It's worth a shot, and besides, I bet that it might be useful IF China ever decides to attack the US.