NationStates Jolt Archive

For all those who have argued against secularism in America by saying that our Founding Fathers built it upon a Judeo-Christian foundation, I offer you this:

(A footnote, most of this is intended to be read by Whittier, whose ceaseless idiocy drove me to have to completely debunk this absurd claim)

Without trying to avoid the question with some non sequitur or go on to make some sweeping generalization, read this for me. How do you propose to defend the statement that America is a Christian nation in terms of its government and economic layout?


"The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
-President George Washington

"I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature."
-President Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
-President Abraham Lincoln

"A just government has no need for the clergy or the church. The fruits of Christianity are pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility n the laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-President James Madison

"The United States is not a Christian Nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-Treaty of Tripoli (1797)
signed by John Adams

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

~ Abraham Lincoln

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absented myself from Christian assemblies.”

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor

"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe."

~ William Howard Taft, 27th US President

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under whick weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith."
-Thomas Jefferson

“The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.”

-- Thomas Jefferson, US President

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

~ Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

-- Mark Twain


As a closing note, it's important to address Whittier's statement regarding the vast majority of Americans being Christians. My rebuttal is simple. There is a phrase for religious or other social majorities eliminating civil rights of minorities, and it is called the "tyranny of the majority," coined by John Locke, whose writings about democracy and social change basically lay the groundwork for our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

-- Ross Wolfe

Was Whittier saying that nonsense again? Sigh, some people never learn.

Was Whittier saying that nonsense again? Sigh, some people never learn.

I deleted "Whittier"

I deleted "Whittier"


but he was holy and good and pleasing unto the eyes of god(dad)...



ah well, ya'll are like mayflies to me anywho...

America WAS founded on christian values.


"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."
-George Washington

America WAS founded on christian values.


"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."
-George Washington

You miss the point. The United States was founded on "Spiritual" values, not specifically "Christian" ones.

I deleted "Whittier"

You're my favorite for the next five minutes! :)

I deleted "Whittier"

*grovels in reverence and thanks*

You miss the point. The United States was founded on "Spiritual" values, not specifically "Christian" ones.

All I am saying it was formed with some basis under god, not with complete christian values but with some. And most presidents have been christian.

What did Whittier do.

America is based on Christianity in a sense. The two main reasons for emigrating to the US were religious persecution and economic gain. The people that left for the US for religious reasons were usually the most devout: The English Puritans fled because Cromwell had managed to get everyone against them by forbidding everything fun when in power, the Irish Catholics fled English persecution and the Potatoe Famine (which was also English persecution in a sense), or the Amish, which fled the German states and the thirty years war. Not only was a large portion of immigrants religiously motivated, but they were quite fundamental in their beleifs too.

All I am saying it was formed with some basis under god, not with complete christian values but with some. And most presidents have been christian.


it was not founded as a christian nation, but its founders were profoundly influenced by judeo christian values, even as they were influenced by 18th century rationalism.

"You miss the point. The United States was founded on "Spiritual" values, not specifically "Christian" ones."

That's not entirely correct. Have you read the Federalist Papers? You should, if you haven't. The country was based very heavily in judeo-christian values, and built up from there, strictly because they felt there was a need for a higher morality than the People. They knew from past history (Take a look at ancient Rome) that if the Gov't and the People were allowed to voice what was or wasn't morality, that everything would steadily unwind itself in a massive infighting mess.

The concept of Seperation of Church and State, which was put forth by one of the very Christian founding fathers, came AFTER the base-morality of the nation was already settled out. To say that our nation wasn't built on Judeo-christian values is to be purposefully obtuse as to the dawn of our nation.

And I'm an atheist. ;)

Me.

Still, I think you lose sight of an important fact. The Founding Fathers, including Washington, were more inclined towards Deism than they were towards any form of recognizable Christianity. Washington's references to God or the Bible in public were more fanciful formalities that spoke to the laity, who were at that time also overwhelmingly Christian. The God in his worldview was not the Christian one, though he did serve in the Episcopal Church.

It's an often-neglected aspect of our Founding Fathers' intentions, when discussing the influence of Enlightenment-era theology. They ascribed to the pseudo-Cartesian and Newtonian idea of a mechanical universe, which was designed by a Creator and which, through logic, could be understood.

Founded on Christianity or not, America has become a nation built around Christianity, caucasians, and males. Granted, those outside that group (such as myself, being Atheist) have rights, but they are not held up with such prestige in the eyes of the public. I think it's because they had a headstart and are good at attracting bandwagoners.

Still, I think you lose sight of an important fact. The Founding Fathers, including Washington, were more inclined towards Deism than they were towards any form of recognizable Christianity. Washington's references to God or the Bible in public were more fanciful formalities that spoke to the laity, who were at that time also overwhelmingly Christian. The God in his worldview was not the Christian one, though he did serve in the Episcopal Church.

It's an often-neglected aspect of our Founding Fathers' intentions, when discussing the influence of Enlightenment-era theology. They ascribed to the pseudo-Cartesian and Newtonian idea of a mechanical universe, which was designed by a Creator and which, through logic, could be understood.


damn country was more founded on masonic values than anything else if ya wanna get technical

All I am saying it was formed with some basis under god, not with complete christian values but with some. And most presidents have been christian.

Irrelevant. And to claim that "some" values that went into the foundation of America are Christian values and this makes America a nation founded on Christian values is correct only if you are willing to say that America was founded on some values found in the Jewish religion, the Islamic religion, the Hindu religion, the Buddhist religion and just about every other religion on the planet. Therefore, you can only say America was founded on Christian values if you also say America was founded on Jewish values, Islamic values, Hindi values, etc.

What did Whittier do.
My nation was used to flame people.
And I am a dumbass, and another guy is banging my girlfriend even though she said she liked me. I was wondering why she never had time to go out with me.
I guess you guys are right, I am stupid for letting someone else use my account.

I am not holding against you that my nation was deleted. But I don't feel like rping now or talking. I don't want that nation back. Its tainted.

Okay everyone, there was already a thread on this and all of this already happened. America was not founded with Christian values. Can't you people just leave it alone. The occasional reference to god does not outweigh all the quotes against Christianity. "In God we Trust" and "Under God" where added in the 50's as a distinguishing mark against the Soviets. Can't we just let it lie?

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=339896

Make sure to read all of it.

I think the fact that must be considered in all this (since I don't know who it is that prompted this rant, I'm thankfully new to the forums) while the founding fathers may were mainly christian, as generally were all the colonists to my knowledge they still included in the bill of rights a protection of ALL religions. Now for the people who attack Atheists I will point out that Atheism is infact a religion, since religion is merely a set of beliefs about the spiritual nature of the world and an Atheist has those, even if they do not conform with what most people think. On that basis and the fact that since the founding of this country it has diversified a great deal using religious tennets as the basis for legislation is both obsurd and persacutory.

America is based on Christianity in a sense. The two main reasons for emigrating to the US were religious persecution and economic gain. The people that left for the US for religious reasons were usually the most devout: The English Puritans fled because Cromwell had managed to get everyone against them by forbidding everything fun when in power, the Irish Catholics fled English persecution and the Potatoe Famine (which was also English persecution in a sense), or the Amish, which fled the German states and the thirty years war. Not only was a large portion of immigrants religiously motivated, but they were quite fundamental in their beliefs too.


and proceeded doing exactly what from which they fled

America wasn't founded on Christianity, the founding fathers made that clear many times. In fact, most of them weren't even Christians, they were Deists, which is about as watered down as Christianity gets and some people still try to claim it. That said, it's impossible to deny the central role that the Judeo-Christian ethic has ASSUMED in American society to this point. The Ten Commandments on Courthouses, swearing the President in over a Bible, beginning each session of Congress and the Supreme Court with a prayer, these things have all become features of American government. Whether they're shiny or useful is much more debatable than if they're there.

"You miss the point. The United States was founded on "Spiritual" values, not specifically "Christian" ones."

That's not entirely correct. Have you read the Federalist Papers? You should, if you haven't. The country was based very heavily in judeo-christian values, and built up from there, strictly because they felt there was a need for a higher morality than the People. They knew from past history (Take a look at ancient Rome) that if the Gov't and the People were allowed to voice what was or wasn't morality, that everything would steadily unwind itself in a massive infighting mess.

The concept of Seperation of Church and State, which was put forth by one of the very Christian founding fathers, came AFTER the base-morality of the nation was already settled out. To say that our nation wasn't built on Judeo-christian values is to be purposefully obtuse as to the dawn of our nation.

And I'm a Christian.

And I'm an atheist. ;)

Me.

I have read the Federalist Papers. I have also read writings of Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams, the men who, by and large, had the biggest hand in voicing a cohesive vision for our country and what it stood for. While I have no doubt that Christian values played some part in the founding of our country, but not an explicit role. I find it hard to believe that men who frequently denounced state-sponsored religion and advocated so strongly for the separation between affairs of the church and affairs of state and who broke away from England in part because of resentment towards religious restrictions and monarchs would "base" their country of freedom and liberty on the set values of any one religion.

And if you read the writings of Jefferson then you will quickly discover that they indeed did not think there was a "higher morality" than the people, at least not in terms of governmental structure. "The Safest Depository" always has been and always will be the will of the people, not the will of a king or the presumptive will of God.

According to religioustolerance.org's entry on Deism:

"Many of the leaders of the French and American revolutions followed this belief system, including John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, and George Washington. Deists played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, and the religious freedom clauses of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution."

Furthermore:

"Deists:
1. Do not accept the belief of most religions that God revealed himself to humanity through the writings of the Bible, the Qur'an or other religious texts.
2. Disagree with strong Atheists who assert that there is no evidence of the existence of God."

Now, how can one be a Christian while denying that the Bible was God's word?

"The Safest Depository" always has been and always will be the will of the people, not the will of a king or the presumptive will of God.
Sadly, it seems that "the will of the people" has become what they presume as the will of God...

What did Whittier do.
he harryied people tat didnt agree wiv him. twould have been more fun to be buggered wiv a fork

According to religioustolerance.org's entry on Deism:

"Many of the leaders of the French and American revolutions followed this belief system, including John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, and George Washington. Deists played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, and the religious freedom clauses of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution."

Furthermore:

"Deists:
1. Do not accept the belief of most religions that God revealed himself to humanity through the writings of the Bible, the Qur'an or other religious texts.
2. Disagree with strong Atheists who assert that there is no evidence of the existence of God."

Now, how can one be a Christian while denying that the Bible was God's word?

It's not as hard as you might think. My own faith, the Religious Society of Friends, accepts that God's revelation is ongoing and that, while the Bible is indeed an important source of inspiration, it is the word of God translated through man. Therefore, to take that word as the literal word of God is to, in effect, put man higher than God. You must read the Bible and then allow the words to speak to you. Deism is much the same in the sense that the words are not necessarily the ends.

I have no doubt that the founding fathers may have practiced "Christian values" because those were the most common mores of their time. My concern comes in when the practicing of those values in the abstract is claimed to justify some sort of incorrect definition of the United States as a "Christian Nation Founded On Christian Values" which is not now and has never been true. I think we both agree on that, though.

he harryied people tat didnt agree wiv him. twould have been more fun to be buggered wiv a fork
People got upset cuase i let someone use my account and posted stuff they didn't agree with. So Whitter was deleted for disagreeing with athiesm.

The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion.

-- George Washington & John Adams, in a diplomatic message to Malta.

I read what he posted. Some of it made sense though I don't understand why he flipped out.
Though it looks to me like the ones who responded the thread were doing the flaming.
Looks to me like a case of religious persecution.

Sadly, it seems that "the will of the people" has become what they presume as the will of God...

Not true, at least, not completely true. As Jefferson said:"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."

If the people are making bad judgements, then they must be educated and informed, not presumed lost or incapable of change. Otherwise we have abandoned the fundamental principle of a democratic society.

Dosent it mean anything to you when your president says "God Bless America" at the end of all of his speeches? weather you believe in God or not, if you can follow moral Christian ways, your bound to do alot less stupid things.

if you can follow moral Christian ways, your bound to do alot less stupid things.

Oh, kewl, like buring women at the stake for disagreeing with you.. where do I sign up! :rolleyes:

-- George Washington & John Adams, in a diplomatic message to Malta.
You are wrong in you source. That was actually in the treaty of Tripoli.
A treaty of peace and freindship between america and the muslims world.

Burning a women at the stake was the act of stupid villagers who dident know any better, now that we all know that there arnt really any witchs around, you can see that we havent been burning a whole lot of women

Funny how none of these quotes appear anywhere but on antichristian sites, kinda makes you wonder if they were made up

Burning a women at the stake was the act of stupid villagers who dident know any better, now that we all know that there arnt really any witchs around, you can see that we havent been burning a whole lot of womenRecent Witches:
Pinko Commy
Tommy Terrorist

America hasn't gotten over the witch hunt, we've just gone after a new target. If it weren't for Stalin, there would still be lynching and the KKK. The USSR gave us someone else to hate.

If the people are making bad judgements, then they must be educated and informed, not presumed lost or incapable of change. Otherwise we have abandoned the fundamental principle of a democratic society.
This is not happening in the US. Sadly, there's not enough being done for education.

Dosent it mean anything to you when your president says "God Bless America" at the end of all of his speeches?

Like what? I have no problem with a general benediction from a general divinity, but if we're going to start saying stupid things like "God Bless America through the redeption of Jesus Christ and all those who are of different faiths are going to burn in hell," then yes, that would mean something to me, it would mean my country had completely lost it's way and that the United States was dead. At least, it would if he said that and the majority of people backed him in it.


weather you believe in God or not, if you can follow moral Christian ways, your bound to do alot less stupid things.

Yes, but if you're not Christian, then I guess they're not Christian morals, now are they? And Christians seem to do plenty of stupid things while following those morals. Not just Salem. How about the Inquisition, or the Ku Klux Klan, or the Crusades?

If you have morals period, you're less likely to do stupid things, but you're not proof against it and one set of morals doesn't not necessarily trump another simply because you stick a Christ on it.

Funny how none of these quotes appear anywhere but on antichristian sites, kinda makes you wonder if they were made up

Which quotes are you talking about, because they're on plenty of other sites than "anti-christian" ones. Read the writings of the men and do the research yourself if you like, although that'll require some work on your part.

thats your governments own foolish mistake, i dont support the actions of the groups, but its still something that the government is responsable for, they do keep christian values, but its rare they will refer to them to follow them.

You are wrong in you source. That was actually in the treaty of Tripoli.
A treaty of peace and freindship between america and the muslims world.

Whatever, they said it.

Okay, allow me to be the first to say that the very nature of society in the colonies in the 18th century was Judeo-Christian because the overwhelming majority of colonists were Christian. This undoubtedly affected our founding fathers to some extent. America has retained a Judeo-Christian society over the years, albeit more pronounced in some areas than others. In other words, while America may not have been founded on Judeo-Christian values, these values were inherent in its society and have been carried down since then.

Burning a women at the stake was the act of stupid villagers who dident know any better, now that we all know that there arnt really any witchs around, you can see that we havent been burning a whole lot of women

Actually, the stupid villagers accused the women, the church killed them.

Burning a women at the stake was the act of stupid villagers who dident know any better, now that we all know that there arnt really any witchs around, you can see that we havent been burning a whole lot of women

Since when do we ALL know that there aren't any witches around? I see no definitive proof for either argument. Regardless of the "ignorance of the era," and perhaps regardless of the manner in which mob hysteria manifested itself, the society which gave birth to the Salem witch trials was god-fearing and undeniably Christian and acted upon, however fundamentalist, Christian values. It is impossible to discount past atrocities as merely "stupid" when attempting to defend a belief-system which is so strongly rooted in history and tradition. The Puritans of Salem followed the Bible to the letter and look where it got them. Surely the Christian conception of God would not allow people who are so fervently attempting to follow his word to fall so far into intolerance and stupidity. Besides, at least the "stupid" people of the past could spell.

Founded on Christianity or not, America has become a nation built around Christianity, caucasians, and males. Granted, those outside that group (such as myself, being Atheist) have rights, but they are not held up with such prestige in the eyes of the public. I think it's because they had a headstart and are good at attracting bandwagoners.

I agree to the fullest. GO ATHEISTS!

Christians don't do stupid things in the name of their religion in todays world?

- how about beating gay people to death because being gay is wrong?

- how about bombing abortion clinics because abortion is wrong?

- how about claiming that America is a Christian nation and the Laws were based on Christian ideals as if theft and murder wasnt frowned upon before Christianity ever came into existance?

- how about activly trying to shove their beliefs down the throats of anyone they come across?

I know this isn't teh practice of all Christians and not even the majority but you can't say that it doesnt get done. Being religious makes NOONE morally superior.

Also, yes there are witches in todays world, but finally they are able to practice their own beliefs in peace.

This is not happening in the US. Sadly, there's not enough being done for education.

Then we must work harder for it. To say it's not happening is pointless. Get out there and do something about it. Talk to people, inform them, show them where they can get informed themselves and make up their own opinions.

My God, it's like we're in a real life Richard the Second here, "For God's sake, let us sit on the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."

Actually, the stupid villagers accused the women, the church killed them.
That depends on which incidents you mean. I know less about the witch trials in America, but the European ones were led either by the Spanish Inquisition in Spain or in wartorn and delirious German States during and after the Thirty Years war. The Germans torturing and killing women did it for weird religious and eventually "economic" reasons, picking the wealthy in order to seize their holdings. The stupid villagers didn't neccessarily accuse the women, special inquisitors did. At the time, the Pope sent envoys up north to investigate how these trials were being done, though these didn't manage to do anything to stop them, shocked as they were.

Okay, allow me to be the first to say that the very nature of society in the colonies in the 18th century was Judeo-Christian because the overwhelming majority of colonists were Christian. This undoubtedly affected our founding fathers to some extent. America has retained a Judeo-Christian society over the years, albeit more pronounced in some areas than others. In other words, while America may not have been founded on Judeo-Christian values, these values were inherent in its society and have been carried down since then.

Again, though, that's irrelevant unless you are willing to say that American society was founded on Jewish values or Islamic values or Pagan values also. There is no uniqueness to the views held in common, therefore it is incorrect to say that they are uniquely Judeo-Christian in their origin.

For all those who have argued against secularism in America by saying that our Founding Fathers built it upon a Judeo-Christian foundation, I offer you this:

(A footnote, most of this is intended to be read by Whittier, whose ceaseless idiocy drove me to have to completely debunk this absurd claim)

Without trying to avoid the question with some non sequitur or go on to make some sweeping generalization, read this for me. How do you propose to defend the statement that America is a Christian nation in terms of its government and economic layout?


"The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
-President George Washington

"I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature."
-President Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
-President Abraham Lincoln

"A just government has no need for the clergy or the church. The fruits of Christianity are pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility n the laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-President James Madison

"The United States is not a Christian Nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-Treaty of Tripoli (1797)
signed by John Adams

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

~ Abraham Lincoln

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absented myself from Christian assemblies.”

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor

"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe."

~ William Howard Taft, 27th US President

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under whick weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith."
-Thomas Jefferson

“The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.”

-- Thomas Jefferson, US President

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

~ Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

-- Mark Twain


As a closing note, it's important to address Whittier's statement regarding the vast majority of Americans being Christians. My rebuttal is simple. There is a phrase for religious or other social majorities eliminating civil rights of minorities, and it is called the "tyranny of the majority," coined by John Locke, whose writings about democracy and social change basically lay the groundwork for our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

-- Ross Wolfe
And where did you find these "quotes"? Links? Books? Without citing where you got this, this is null and void.

Then we must work harder for it. To say it's not happening is pointless. Get out there and do something about it. Talk to people, inform them, show them where they can get informed themselves and make up their own opinions.

I live in Germany. The only Americans I can reach are military, if at all, and most of those are hard core Conservatives that won't listen to me...

It may seem iconoclastic of me to speak so bluntly of our Founding Fathers as this, but I will. I admire their unwavering intellectualism and strength of spirit, as well as their idealism and commitment to the values of Enlightenment democracy. Still, it is apparent today as it was then that they clearly regarded themselves as a sort of intelligentsia, whose reliance on logic and reason was paramount to guiding their actions in government. One might even consider them elitist, given their patronizing view of the "simpler" citizens of the colonies.

However, as a believer in the doctrine of secularism and the state, I fully condone their stance on these issues. It is better that they ignore the cries of the masses for a religious state than to allow intolerance to brew and run rampant as it had in the centuries preceding the Enlightenment.

--Ross Wolfe

And where did you find these "quotes"? Links? Books? Without citing where you got this, this is null and void.

Okay, how about these:

"It is... proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808.

"Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry." --Thomas Jefferson, Statute For Religious Freedom, 1779.

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." --Thomas Jefferson, Statute For Religious Freedom, 1779.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."--James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kemp, December 27th, 1816.

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr, August 10th, 1787.

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810.

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."--Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." --Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", November 20th, 1728

Here is MY feeling on the matter. As much as it doesn't make sense to me, believe all you wish. If you believe in a god, all the freaking power to you. I am no one to judge you.. and I certainly can't say there is or isn't because quite frankly NO ONE knows.

But here's the thing, I do have a problem with Religion X.. telling me how I should or should not think.. I do have a problem with religion X saying they are right and there is no possible way they're wrong. I am an atheist. It makes sense to me. However, I do play with the idea I just might be wrong, I don't think so, but I don't know for sure, no one does.

If religion X whatever religion is what you wish to believe, hey, I say go for it.. if it makes you feel better, gives meaning to your life, whatever your reasons are.. go for it.

What I don't see is a need to convert the rest of us who it doesn't make sense to. Who cares? I mean you believe , I don't, the world keeps spinning round, right?

Why should I care what you believe any more then you should care what I believe? I have many friends and all my family who do believe, I love them and that's not going to change.. Yet, they don't have a right to dictate morality to me.. If I'm not hurting any one, who cares?

It's all very silly really.. the whole religious debate.. believe as you wish and I shall do the same..

It's no biggy ;)

Yes Steph but if you don't ahve religion then you must not have any common sense or love in your heart or ability to make thoughtful heartfelt decisions.

^^^^^
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Thats the viewpoint that pisses me off the most. :headbang:

Okay, just to start things off, I am an atheist and this is what I believe.
America was originally colonized as a scheme to make money, but then religious groups started coming over here seeking religious freedom. Wait, let me say that again. RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Sure, they were all predominantly Christians with Christian ideas and Christian morals and they are the "foundation for our nation," but I think they would be saddened to see the state that America is coming to today. What the original colonists wanted was nothing more than the choice to choose and that choice is becoming harder and harder to make with the way society has been treating religion and the promotion of Christianity above any other religion by our President. Anyway, I find it kind of sad that George Bush launched an attack on Iraq in the name of his God in response to bin Laden's attack on our country...in the name of...his...God...that scares me.

Yes Steph but if you don't ahve religion then you must not have any common sense or love in your heart or ability to make thoughtful heartfelt decisions.

^^^^^
| | | |

Thats the viewpoint that pisses me off the most. :headbang:

To me, that is their personal problem, not mine.. they are the ones with the problem, not me.. c'est la vie!

Here is MY feeling on the matter. As much as it doesn't make sense to me, believe all you wish. If you believe in a god, all the freaking power to you. I am no one to judge you.. and I certainly can't say there is or isn't because quite frankly NO ONE knows.

Isn't it funny that this is what the Bible teaches and atheists are the ones who practice is the most.

It's all very silly really.. the whole religious debate.. believe as you wish and I shall do the same..



It's not silly, Steph, any more than being interested in politics is silly. Or being interested in cooking or making model airplanes or any thing else.

I respect your right to believe or not believe or wherever you fall in the bell curve of human skepticism and would never dream of forcing my personal belief on you. I would however ask you to not dismiss issues that are very important to others as "silly," lest issues that are important to you be dismissed as well.

Yer right Steph, that is their ignorance.

I think we need to get a Buddhist in office. That would rock.

Or maybe a Native American. Can they even run for office?

While perhaps not founded on "Christian" values, the United States of America is deeply rooted in a belief in God. The very core of the Government is that the rights of the people come from God, and it is the Government's job to preserve these rights.

Also, in that list of quotes from the "Founders" three of them - Twain, Lincoln, and Taft - were obviously not Founders.

Fifty-five men signed the Dec of Independence. Of them, a handful were Deists and atheists, and the remaining vast majority were what we call today "fundamentalist Christians."

I teach an American government class at a local junior college, not that that makes me some sort of a scholarly expert on the subject, but I think it's totally undebatable to say that America was not founded on godly principles. If our rights do not come from God, then where do they come from? If they come from men, then men can just as easily take them away, which is why it is very important that we as Americans remember that. There may be a seperation of church and state but there was no separation of God and state. The recognition of a higher power as the source of man's rights is THE fundamental keystone to America's government.

Kw.II

If you people like discussing politics/religion (and you obviously do.. hm) i think you'd be interested in the ifakedit message boards...
http://ifakedit.com/mb
dont bother if you're easily offended.


about our nation and religious influences
vvvvv
http://www.ifakedit.com/mb/viewtopic.php?t=162

America WAS founded on christian values.


"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."
-George Washington

Which isn't stating which god it is, so it could be any god, niy just the christian god

While perhaps not founded on "Christian" values, the United States of America is deeply rooted in a belief in God. The very core of the Government is that the rights of the people come from God, and it is the Government's job to preserve these rights.

A God. A Divinity. A Creator. Not a Christian one, though, and not with any more doctrine or dogma than that implies. You can not coopt God and assume it is always in reference to a Christian conceptualization thereof, particularly when you reference the writings of Washington, Jefferson, Adams and Franklin as well as Madison to an extent.


Fifty-five men signed the Dec of Independence. Of them, a handful were Deists and atheists, and the remaining vast majority were what we call today "fundamentalist Christians."

Where's that shown? And if this is so true, if these viewpoints represent such a small slice of the conceptual vision of America, then why are the biggest names today Jefferson, Washington, Adams and Franklin? Why were these "Diests and atheists" allowed to not only create the very documents that put down in writing the fundamental purpose of our country, but to then expand on it and, indeed, serve as it's leaders during the very crucial formative years?


I teach an American government class at a local junior college, not that that makes me some sort of a scholarly expert on the subject, but I think it's totally undebatable to say that America was not founded on godly principles.

Again, though, that's fine so far as it goes no further. God with no association, no denomination, no religious affiliation, just a "prime motive" force that inspired the creation of the world and then left.


If our rights do not come from God, then where do they come from?

The basic, intristic fact of our existance? The commonality of human experience and respect? Because even if there is no God, we are endowed, by the simple fact of being aware and alive on this planet at this moment, with an equality of freedom and individual choice that is sacrosanct. For if we do anything else, if we act in any other fashion, we are no better than plain animals and there is nothing, NOTHING that separates us from any other beast that roams this planet.


If they come from men, then men can just as easily take them away, which is why it is very important that we as Americans remember that.

And when men take them away, they are wrong for doing so and those who allow their rights to be removed are wrong for doing so, but those rights do not "flow" from men. They are separate and given on the simple virtue of existance.


There may be a seperation of church and state but there was no separation of God and state.

This may be true, so long as you are completely willing to divorce God from any semblence of religious trapping that might sneak in the door with him. The founding fathers were very firm on this point, and rightly so. No one has argued that they were not spiritual men. What is being argued is that they set up a country based on the concept of the Religion of Christianity being fundamental to all dealings. This is clearly untrue. As Thomas Jefferson said to Miles King, "Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." Of course they had spiritual beliefs, but they were very clear in their placement of them and very precise in exactly how much lattitude those beliefs should have in the fullness of government.


The recognition of a higher power as the source of man's rights is THE fundamental keystone to America's government.

But again, not a Christian God and not really anything more than a "creator" which could be anything from the West Wind to random chance. To attribute Christian values to it is not only mistaken, but a fundamental violation of the very vision of the country our founding fathers sought to establish.

While perhaps not founded on "Christian" values, the United States of America is deeply rooted in a belief in God. The very core of the Government is that the rights of the people come from God, and it is the Government's job to preserve these rights.

Also, in that list of quotes from the "Founders" three of them - Twain, Lincoln, and Taft - were obviously not Founders.

Fifty-five men signed the Dec of Independence. Of them, a handful were Deists and atheists, and the remaining vast majority were what we call today "fundamentalist Christians."

I teach an American government class at a local junior college, not that that makes me some sort of a scholarly expert on the subject, but I think it's totally undebatable to say that America was not founded on godly principles. If our rights do not come from God, then where do they come from? If they come from men, then men can just as easily take them away, which is why it is very important that we as Americans remember that. There may be a seperation of church and state but there was no separation of God and state. The recognition of a higher power as the source of man's rights is THE fundamental keystone to America's government.

Kw.II

and the very last of those men saw and understood the very effect of too much involvement of church in the state in vice versa, they oopted against it, some of thsse dipwads dont understand it now

and the idea is that men have INHERENT rights, THOSE are the keystone of american government, since your an allmighty professor im sure you know wher they got the idea

Out of curiosity, when did the christian church gain full monopoly to the words "morals" and "God?"

Out of curiosity, when did the christian church gain full monopoly to the words "morals" and "God?"

I think it was the after the Crusades and the Inquisition. ;)

While perhaps not founded on "Christian" values, the United States of America is deeply rooted in a belief in God. The very core of the Government is that the rights of the people come from God, and it is the Government's job to preserve these rights.

Also, in that list of quotes from the "Founders" three of them - Twain, Lincoln, and Taft - were obviously not Founders.

Fifty-five men signed the Dec of Independence. Of them, a handful were Deists and atheists, and the remaining vast majority were what we call today "fundamentalist Christians."

I teach an American government class at a local junior college, not that that makes me some sort of a scholarly expert on the subject, but I think it's totally undebatable to say that America was not founded on godly principles. If our rights do not come from God, then where do they come from? If they come from men, then men can just as easily take them away, which is why it is very important that we as Americans remember that. There may be a seperation of church and state but there was no separation of God and state. The recognition of a higher power as the source of man's rights is THE fundamental keystone to America's government.

Kw.II


Hmmm why type of local junior college? Is it public or a Christian school?

The men's religion has no meaning in the founding of the country. They remembered the Religious wars of Europe, why have them here?

They wanted a Relgious Neutral Goverment! End of story.

They wanted a Relgious Neutral Goverment! End of story.
Nothing else needs to be said.

It's not silly, Steph, any more than being interested in politics is silly. Or being interested in cooking or making model airplanes or any thing else.

I respect your right to believe or not believe or wherever you fall in the bell curve of human skepticism and would never dream of forcing my personal belief on you. I would however ask you to not dismiss issues that are very important to others as "silly," lest issues that are important to you be dismissed as well.

No, I think you misunderstood me Berk, I mean the religious debate is silly.. people will believe what they believe, I'm not going to talk you into not believing if you do and you're not going to talk me into believing when I don't..

Politics is another animal, it's tangible.. it can be debated as it affects our lives in the here and now..

Yer right Steph, that is their ignorance.

I think we need to get a Buddhist in office. That would rock.

Or maybe a Native American. Can they even run for office?

I ran for office. And I happen to be part Native American.
Not to mention that Senator Campbell is himself native american.

I deleted "Whittier"
Now I know why.

My nation was used to flame people.
And I am a dumbass, and another guy is banging my girlfriend even though she said she liked me. I was wondering why she never had time to go out with me.
I guess you guys are right, I am stupid for letting someone else use my account.

I am not holding against you that my nation was deleted. But I don't feel like rping now or talking. I don't want that nation back. Its tainted.
nope

he harryied people tat didnt agree wiv him. twould have been more fun to be buggered wiv a fork
deleted cause people didn't agree with me.

the US of the A is a nation founded on christianity. maybe not on paper but in spirit.
the US of the A is not for nothing one of the most conservative nations of the universe.

the US of the A is a nation founded on christianity. maybe not on paper but in spirit.
the US of the A is not for nothing one of the most conservative nations of the universe.
actually you are right, and nothing the europeans or athiests do is going to change that.
and we may be the most religious nation on earth but we have something they don't
freedom of speech
freedom to practice your own religion in public or almost any where else of your choosing
that includes the right to pray in public.
that's why we are so powerful and the europeans aren't
cause we have more freedom than they do

magno indubio sum

the US of the A is a nation founded on christianity. maybe not on paper but in spirit.
the US of the A is not for nothing one of the most conservative nations of the universe.

I doubt being built on Christian values or any other values for that matter make a country conservative. For example, in Finland the lutheran church is funded with tax money! And nobody can accuse the stupid Finns of being conservative.

Besides that, the Founding Fathers were politicians. They lie.

something tells me that mister Whittier has never been to the fine continent of the Europeans. If I am not mistaken I can speak rather freely, move quite freely and ....
en plus the freedom you claim to have also means that those who are unemployed live in poverty and die without health insurance and so on in Europe social welfare is far better organised
You are FREE TO TALK about social welfare we HAVE social welfare

I doubt being built on Christian values or any other values for that matter make a country conservative. For example, in Finland the lutheran church is funded with tax money! And nobody can accuse the stupid Finns of being conservative.

Besides that, the Founding Fathers were politicians. They lie.
they weren't those kind of politicians. you can't judge them by today's pols.
but then again, do you even much about american history?

something tells me that mister Whittier has never been to the fine continent of the Europeans. If I am not mistaken I can speak rather freely, move quite freely and ....
en plus the freedom you claim to have also means that those who are unemployed live in poverty and die without health insurance and so on in Europe social welfare is far better organised
You are FREE TO TALK about social welfare we HAVE social welfare
no one has the right to have money, only the right to seek it.
that is why it is "the right PURSUE happiness" and not "the right to happiness"
btw, if offend you with my europe remarks, I would apologize.
I am feeling rather angry at the moment.

yeah yeah freedom of speech and freedom to shoot somebody in the head as well

i am not talking of the right to own money. social welfare is about helping those people for whom the capitalist system has no place because profit is to important
what are you going to pursue when there are no jobs available ? crime ?

they weren't those kind of politicians. you can't judge them by today's pols.
but then again, do you even much about american history?

You're right. Historic events should not be evaluated solely by today's standards. I still know enough about history, American too, to be confident about the fact that politicians have always lied and will always lie. That's okay, though.

i am not talking of the right to own money. social welfare is about helping those people for whom the capitalist system has no place because profit is to important
what are you going to pursue when there are no jobs available ? crime ?
you are still free to pursue happiness.
you don't need money to be happy

money is indeed not necessary to be happy but it is damn helpfull when you are hungry, thirsty in need of medical attention, ..... shall I go on ?

money is indeed not necessary to be happy but it is damn helpfull when you are hungry, thirsty in need of medical attention, ..... shall I go on ?
we have faith based organizations that help people that find themselves in those situations.
works a lot better than state funded welfare.

once again
magno indubio sum
no offence meant

once again
magno indubio sum
no offence meant
? how did i offend you?

not at all

ok

America WAS founded on christian values.

Not according to Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, which states: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


Bold is mine.

Not according to Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, which states:

Bold is mine.

I'd say that this treaty really proves nothing. I don't claim to know too much about the events that led to this treaty being signed, but it seems that it was more in USA's interest to have such a treaty (which is supported by the fact that the treaty was broken pretty soon). When we also take into account the fact that Europe and the Ottomans (one could almost say Christianity versus Muslims) had been at war numerous times during the past centuries, we are near a conclusion that if I wanted a treaty to be signed with a state on the other side of the Atlantic, I'd print those words myself it if helped. I bet nobody really cared expect some dude who'se father had also been in the habit of being called "Bey". Perhaps his generals and captains too.

All manners of Treaties are known to contain all kinds of gibberish anyway. Makes 'em look better.

The point is that it is enshrined in law that the United States wasn't founded on the Christian Religion.

I'll buy it, and I have to say the one quote used by the guy on the first page about Washington making a speech with god in it all over, that is what we call marketing my friend.... Marketing to the masses. After all the consstitution wasn't hugely supported by a great deal of people at first, a lot of people took issue with it because of the strong centeralized government.