NationStates Jolt Archive

I am just curious cause I don't but I am just curious to see what you all think.

No.

No, but I like to fool myself into thinking I have one so that I have someone to pray to when the going gets tough. It's relaxing.

I do not believe in any god.

No, God is just something we lie to ourselves about so were not so afraid of death

but i believe in all of you guys, come on please...

I am god therfore I believe in myself.

Jim SC

but i believe in all of you guys, come on please...

*hugs* I don't have to believe in you silly, I know you're right here! :)

I am god therfore I believe in myself.

Jim SC


don't believe him, he is an ancient minion of satan, i believe his real name is jimezel, but i might be confusing him with this other dude.

ps. big jim, where the fuk ya been man, haven't seen you in months...

God is something that was invented to make people accept their place in life, because there is supposed to be something better in death. So no, I don't believe in god, or gods.

no I don't
and furthermore, I find it strange that none of the believers that voted in the poll are leaving replies...they must not be into abuse tonight...

I do, I rather be safe than sorry. I feel I if all of this was just a waste what will it matter when I die, I will just blink out and no other thought. But.... if there is something beyond it, then there will be no blink out.... just.... eternity. Well have a great day all, whether or not you beleive.

God, no!

Hey, i believe in me, and i'm posting. are youir hearts so hardened that you can't hear my voice, or see the print i have typed?

I do, I rather be safe than sorry. I feel I if all of this was just a waste what will it matter when I die, I will just blink out and no other thought. But.... if there is something beyond it, then there will be no blink out.... just.... eternity. Well have a great day all, whether or not you beleive.

So you don't *really* believe in a god. You just want to feel comfortable.

ps. big jim, where the fuk ya been man, haven't seen you in months...

Puter probs. But now I'm back.

Hail satan.

Jim SC

So you don't *really* believe in a god. You just want to feel comfortable.

No, I really do believe in God but I am not going to try and force it on everyone like some people do. I am just explaining that even if I am wrong about there being a God, what is the worst that is going to happen to me?

It may seem obvious to you all, but if you don't clarify the terminology I can't answer the question. I think my answer is no, but again, what is meant by god or gods?

I do, I rather be safe than sorry.
Yeah, that's a good reason to be religious. I'm sure that's in the bible somewhere.


Matthew 20:10

And so Jesus spoke, "It's better to be safe than sorry, heathens."

Puter probs. But now I'm back.

Hail satan.

Jim SC


you still have a nation or is that a jolt account?

It may seem obvious to you all, but if you don't clarify the terminology I can't answer the question. I think my answer is no, but again, what is meant by god or gods? Any higher power that yo feel you must answer to being that it is the Christian God, Mohamad, Allah, or Satan ((or name who ever you like best))

No, I really do believe in God but I am not going to try and force it on everyone like some people do. I am just explaining that even if I am wrong about there being a God, what is the worst that is going to happen to me?

So why *do* you believe in God?

I beleive that God was an invention to keep people in power, out of power, or compliant drones. Therefore i do not beleive that there is a god/gods. I do, however, understand people's need for something to beleive in and accept them.

No... But then again, I do belive there is something after death.. not just we cease to exist.. if thats not the case... it seems that our lives were really just a waste... which isnt logical... but then the whole topic of is there/isnt there a god is entirely unlogical becasue you cant prove it either way... hmmm *goes into contemplation*

I belive in free thought and questioning what we're fed from birth. Silly god, tricks are for kids.

I completely disagree with the notion that some big guy is watching us and telling us what we can and can't do. I want to tell him he can't watch me. Its an invasion of my privacy.

I wouldn't say that I believe in God. I like to think that he/she/it exists, but I have never seen any conclusive proof either way. I defy anyone to produce any evidence to prove conclusively whether God does or does not exist.

http://www.activedistribution.org/images/badges/252.gif

you still have a nation or is that a jolt account?

Nation I think.

Jim

I like the distinction Joseph Campbell made between divinity and a personal god. Personally, I believe in the divinity of the spirit and of the human consciousness, but I don't know about the existence of a personal God.

As a muslim, haven't formally converted yet, I believe in one God. Not three in one just one. I'm probally one of the few muslim conservatives on this planet.

Having had one plant his arse down on my settee and set me straight on a few things, it's kinda hard not to. :D

So far the majority of the posts I've read here have lame reasons (if any) for why they believe or not.
"It makes me comfortable to know there's life after death" is a selfish reason and is the sort of half-assed religious catchphrase that makes atheists and hard-line believers cringe alike.
"It makes me uncomfortable to think about someone watching me" suggests that you have something to fear, or some sort of guilt or insecurity in the issue. Plus, it's no reason to base a logical argument upon.

A lot of people think this question is very personal and may take offense to some of things said here (not just by me). But remember this: you can only be insulted if you let yourself be insulted. If your beliefs (in either direction) are truly strong, then it won't bother you either way about what other people say. If you feel threatened, then you've found your weakness.

And for those who still might be wondering, I voted yes.

Pagan and proud!

"It makes me uncomfortable to think about someone watching me"

That's just what many religious types want to think atheists believe.

I BELIEVE IN THE MAJESTY OF THE INVINCIBLE PURPLE UNICORN IN THE SKY!!! ALL HAIL TIPUITS (may his mane be forever untangled)!! ALL FALSE GODS SHALL FALL BEFORE HIS MIGHTY HOOVES!!!

ahhh, imaginary friends...all are equally ludicrous, yet precious few people get the joke.

Ah, a belief in God (or Gods). Let us not forget Pascal's Wager:

A) If God(s) does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I was wrong in life, but I'm dead now, so what.
2) I do not believe. When I die I was right in life, but I'm dead now, so what.

B) If God does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, I'm dead now and must pay whatever consequences.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with my God (in Heaven etc).

If there is no God than whats the use of being good? You just live for the moment, and blow away anyone who gets in your way. If there is no god... than there is no eternal afterlife. and without god the law of the universe woulden't be effeciant. everything is run by law. But if there knowone in the beginning to greate the law of the univeres, then there is no univeres at all, ok? just my 2 cents.

Ah, a belief in God (or Gods). Let us not forget Pascal's Wager:

A) If God(s) does not exist
1) I believe. When I die I was wrong in life, but I'm dead now, so what.
2) I do not believe. When I die I was right in life, but I'm dead now, so what.

B) If God does exist
1) I do not believe. Oops, I'm dead now and must pay whatever consequences.
2) I do believe. Now I'm dead and with my God (in Heaven etc).

you people always forget the rest of the wager (which, admittedly, Pascal forgot too):

if God does not exist:
1b) i lived a lie during the only life i will ever have, and failed to progress toward an understanding of the only existence i would ever know.
2b) i lived more fully and faced the reality of my life, and i lived in honesty with the world around me. i developed morality that did not require a supernatural parent-figure standing over me with a big stick, and i was good for the sake of decency rather than merely being good to get a reward or to avoid pissing off a figment of my own imagination.

if God does exist:
1b) since, statistically, it is likely that more than half of the believers chose the WRONG God to worship, i am better off than they are because at least i wasn't worshipping a false God. rather than gambling that my God is the right one, the way believers do, i respectfully decline to vote until i have more information. God recognizes my good sense and my use of the frontal cortex He gave me, and rewards me with the nicest room in heaven.
2b) if i lucked out and happened to believe in the right God, he immediately asks me why the hell i was so gullible and sends me back for another few lifetimes to learn better sense. okay, seriously, if i believed in the right God then that's super, and i do just as well as the atheists and agnostics. however, if i believed in the wrong God he is pissed as hell and sends me to burn or whatever because i was insulting him every time i prayed.

If there is no God than whats the use of being good? You just live for the moment, and blow away anyone who gets in your way. If there is no god... than there is no eternal afterlife. and without god the law of the universe woulden't be effeciant. everything is run by law. But if there knowone in the beginning to greate the law of the univeres, then there is no univeres at all, ok? just my 2 cents.

The use of being good? It makes you feel good? It makes other people be good to you?
Honestly, your short-sightedness is nothing but pathetic.

I BELIEVE IN THE MAJESTY OF THE INVINCIBLE PURPLE UNICORN IN THE SKY!!! ALL HAIL TIPUITS (may his mane be forever untangled)!! ALL FALSE GODS SHALL FALL BEFORE HIS MIGHTY HOOVES!!!

ahhh, imaginary friends...all are equally ludicrous, yet precious few people get the joke.

What about Fagtar the mighty?

No... But then again, I do belive there is something after death.. not just we cease to exist.. if thats not the case... it seems that our lives were really just a waste... which isnt logical... but then the whole topic of is there/isnt there a god is entirely unlogical becasue you cant prove it either way... hmmm *goes into contemplation*

bolding mine.
well the universe isnt very logical.

I'm a dualist.

If there is no God than whats the use of being good? You just live for the moment, and blow away anyone who gets in your way. If there is no god... than there is no eternal afterlife. and without god the law of the universe woulden't be effeciant. everything is run by law. But if there knowone in the beginning to greate the law of the univeres, then there is no univeres at all, ok? just my 2 cents.

if there is a God then what's the point of being good? we're all just being nice out of selfishness then, since we're only being nice to get a reward or avoid punishment, which means nobody is ever actually good. we are a cruel and worthless species who need to be watched over at all times just to have reason to not kill each other.

plus, if God is all-knowing, then He knew what you were going to do before you did it, and He "has a plan," as the saying goes. so who's to say that your wickedness isn't in his plan? who are we to question the Plan? we can do anything whenever we want, because, for all we know, that's what He planned! in fact, it must be, by definition!

(oh, and just a hint: no conscious force generated that air you're breathing, yet it's there...hm...perhaps a conscious force isn't needed for the laws of the universe to have come about...maybe those physicists are on to something...)

PS: PLEASE, God-lovers, learn to write in something approaching a fluid manner. i'm not trying to be a grammer/spelling Nazi, but don't you think God will be embarassed by the number of his followers who can't manage basic communication skills?

You can argue this point of whether a god(s) exist or not till your blue in the face... and still not reach a conclusion. The only way to find a solution to this problem is if either
a) God reveals him self in some manner
OR
b) We find some way to prove their is no god
Either way, chances are it will not be in our lifetime... So until then this argument is never going to get any futher than a his word against hers.. so to speak. It would no doubt be wiser to spend your energy on something more constructive... or at least an argument that can be concluded... in some form.

Alright, let's discuss whether we should follow the creeds laid down by a divine being whose excistence cannot be proved or disproved, and should non-believers be forced to adhere to these creeds as well?

Alright, let's discuss whether we should follow the creeds laid down by a divine being whose excistence cannot be proved or disproved, and should non-believers be forced to adhere to these creeds as well?


Would it not be wrong to force those who do not belive to follow the creeds of something that cannot be proven either way. And... don't those creeds encourage tollerance and understanding? So wouldn't that lead to breaking the creeds that one would be trying to follow? Really it's one big mess...

It would most certainly be wrong, but it happens anyway.

I tend to think of it this way:

In the beginning (well, sort of a beginning since all that material had to come from somewhere) a very tiny ball (well, not exactly a ball, but I'll spare you the intricacies of higher mathematics) filled with all of the stuff of the Universe (stars, planets, squid, Madonna) exploded and everything hung out for a while until man showed up and tried to explain it to everybody.

The gods (and goddesses!) are all products of that same explosion(s) and really are little more than benevolent putzes kibbutzing about the Universe hoping someone will believe in them (or not, as the case may be).

One particularly bored god decided one day that it would like to grab a nice chunk of people to follow it and grabbed a guy (let's call him Abraham) and told him to convert to a certain way and prove his loyalty by cutting off the little flap of skin on his penis. (neat!)

This god then said, "Ok ... now, I want to give you some laws, but I don't think I really have your loyalty just yet, so I'm going to send your grandson, Jacob, into Egypt and he and his decendants will be horribly treated slaves for, oh say, 400 years and then I will step in and free them with great majesty and miracles, lead them around the desert for a while - let's say 40 years - until they start to lose faith in me again, and then hit them with more majesty and miracles and my Law! They'll be so overwhelmed, they're gonna have to follow me!"

And so it went ...

As for Ishmael and all his decendants, well, that's another story.

In short, yeah, I believe in god(s) ... why? Because it makes sense. Do I have proof? Of course I do (some of it explained above). Why don't the god(s) try to prove themselves? For the exact same reason I don't feel the need to prove my existence to the multitudes of ants in the world.

I exist, some ants know it, some ants don't .... I couldn't possibly care less.

As for religion, well, nicely man made and gives us something to talk about. Yes, religion is quite often a crutch .... but what's wrong with crutches?! Go break your foot and then tell me how bad crutches are. :p

I personally belive in God as my personal savior. I am not trying to press my belifs on other people or in any way offend them but then again I dont care if you agree with them either. I can not explain in words the ways I have seen God work though people around me. I dont believe in God just because of the fact that where will I go when I die or will I cease to exist. My faith is something I have chosen on my own and fully rely upon when making all descions. I am growing in my faith everyday and feel God with me every moment of my life. Again I cant quite explain how or why I belive or even the existence of God. But I am fully relient on him. I am not trying to be a saint I am still growing in faith

Again I cant quite explain how or why I belive or even the existence of God. But I am fully relient on him. I am not trying to be a saint I am still growing in faith

I'm sure you'll do just fine. :)

A god who smites and burns everyone who questions his existence, which he hasn't exactly made abundantly obvious, is not something that deserves worship. It would be like worshipping Hitler.

Thankyou Keruvalia
I am glad that someone saw the point of my rambleing

Nimzonia
Deadly


Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 565 A god who smites and burns everyone who questions his existence, which he hasn't exactly made abundantly obvious, is not something that deserves worship. It would be like worshipping Hitler.

God is never described as being a smiter. He let us make choices then the ramification of our choices are viewed as his work when it may only be the work of the devil.

A god who smites and burns everyone who questions his existence, which he hasn't exactly made abundantly obvious, is not something that deserves worship. It would be like worshipping Hitler.

Lucky for the Aethists of the world that a god such as the one you describe does not exist... for he would have much smiting to do >.<

Here's an interesting theory I came across a couple of years ago, and it makes a lot of sense to me: http://www.simulation-argument.com/

For those who can't be bothered to follow the link, it boils down to this. It is far more likely than not that our universe is a computer simulation. Therefore the "gods" of this world, are the computer programmers (or even computer-game players[1]) of another.

Obviously in this system there must be an outer "real" world, and I'm pretty sure that one has always existed and always will, and was not created by anything.

So not, strictly speaking, gods, as such. But in our universe, they're so close to it you can't tell the difference.


Wallsy.

[1] Ever played The Sims? What are you to the characters of that world? Obviously we're a bit more complex, but the basic idea's the same.

God is never described as being a smiter.

Well, of course he's never described as such, but it's basically what he spends most of the Old Testament doing.

"Moses, old chap, pop over there and slay those 3000 unbelievers for me, thanks very much."

Well, of course he's never described as such, but it's basically what he spends most of the Old Testament doing.

"Moses, old chap, pop over there and slay those 3000 unbelievers for me, thanks very much."

That way old testemen law......That law is no longer used by God or by his people. I realize that killing and wars did happen in the Old Testement but read the New Testement Law and you will find a new set of laws, rules, and punishments. With the coming of a Savior Gods own son the laws that once exsited could no longer. Because now people were abble to have a personal realtionship with Jesus.

Ahhh, that's the problem with this kind of discussion, it's hard to remove the idea of god or a God from the whole religion mix...

I see it this way, Religion... dangerous state controlled body, nothing more than a hard core political cult with the big stick of guilt and damnation....

Faith and the gods.... generally a more personal thing.

I belive in a grand design, not sdly bearded olympian alas nor aliens, just things older and different to ourselves....

I also do not fear death and I don't think what's next is better...

hope the above made sense....

Well, of course he's never described as such, but it's basically what he spends most of the Old Testament doing.

"Moses, old chap, pop over there and slay those 3000 unbelievers for me, thanks very much."

God ordered the death of many innocent people during the old testament whos only crime was not beleiving in him... this makes one wonder... Can a god be brought to justice?

That way old testemen law......That law is no longer used by God or by his people. I realize that killing and wars did happen in the Old Testement but read the New Testement Law and you will find a new set of laws, rules, and punishments. With the coming of a Savior Gods own son the laws that once exsited could no longer. Because now people were abble to have a personal realtionship with Jesus.

Does this mean that God was wrong the first time round? Could he not make his mind up?

That way old testemen law......That law is no longer used by God or by his people.

Yeah it is ... Judaism is still alive and well.
:)

No, I don't believe in a god, or multiple gods for that.

Then again, I don't believe in Canada either.

Or any of you. You're all just electrons whizzing around a system of wires.

And I agree that 'God' wasn't a smiter. He always had other people do it for him.

I see God in the things I do everyday. I see God work in my life. I know he is there, so if you think otherwise, prove to me He doesn't exist.

I see God in the things I do everyday. I see God work in my life. I know he is there, so if you think otherwise, prove to me He doesn't exist.

But no solid evidence has ever been show to prove that he does exist.

Give me some evidence that He doesn't.

If there is no God than whats the use of being good?
To make life better.

The "laws of the universe" are DEscriptive, not PRE- or PROscriptive. Learn the difference.

Give me some evidence that He doesn't.
Fallacy of shifting the burden of proof, and complete misunderstanding that one cannot exactly provide evidence of an existential negative.

Does this mean that God was wrong the first time round? Could he not make his mind up?

Of Couse not he is never wrong. There has been debate about this in the past in religous circles. I believe God was teaching us a different type of life one that worked for his people then. Now he has implimented a new law. I do not know what God was teaching in those year in the old testement but i believe that it is something that is God wants me to understand then he will teach me.
Again I am not trying to push me belifs on anyone.

I see the effects of him working in my life, what more proof do I need?

Give me some evidence that He doesn't.

Well where is He then?

Of Couse not he is never wrong. There has been debate about this in the past in religous circles. I believe God was teaching us a different type of life one that worked for his people then. Now he has implimented a new law. I do not know what God was teaching in those year in the old testement but i believe that it is something that is God wants me to understand then he will teach me.
Again I am not trying to push me belifs on anyone.

Bit of a radical change from slaying, pillaging and raping to love thy neighbour. Sounds more like a new 'god' came along, and kicked the old one out.

From my own experiences, I have never met anyone walking around with a sticker on their chest saying "Hello my name is God." Nor have I met anyone that introduced themselves as God.

By the same token, I have never met anyone that could produce pillars of fire without a little accelerant. Nor have I seen anyone rain fire and brimstone without the help of a plane.

Do you have a photograph? A birth certificate?

If he is God, and we should allow bow before him, why doesn't he make an appearance? With the technology we have now, it's not like it would be impossible to appear before the whole world at once by simply putting himself in front of a television camera.

I won't knock you for your beliefs, but you can't seriously expect me to believe in something that you cannot be proven but in faith. That's not proof, that is a belief.

That way old testemen law......That law is no longer used by God or by his people. I realize that killing and wars did happen in the Old Testement but read the New Testement Law and you will find a new set of laws, rules, and punishments. With the coming of a Savior Gods own son the laws that once exsited could no longer. Because now people were abble to have a personal realtionship with Jesus.
Ummm...you've never read the bible, have you? If you had, you'd've known that jesus said he did not "come to abolish the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfill them". Fulfill in this context means to have a final interpretation.

Jesus also said "not one word or stroke of the law shall be changed until all has come to pass and I return". Since he has not returned, according to the xers, the law is still in effect.

Then we come to the curious notion that if the law and prophets are no longer in-force, why all the hubub about getting rid of postings of the 10 demandments in "public" places? I mean--the 10 demandments aren't valid anymore, right? So they should be removed.

Also, I challenge you to find the phrase "personal relationship with jesus" in the bible.

I see the effects of him working in my life, what more proof do I need?
That is the twin fallacies of begging the question and non causa/pro causa.

Also, I challenge you to find the phrase "personal relationship with jesus" in the bible.


Jesus and I had coffee at Starbucks just the other day.

Also, I challenge you to find the phrase "personal relationship with jesus" in the bible.

As far as I'm aware, 'personal relationship' is just evangelist spiel.

When arguing over whether or not any particular deity exists, one has to decide how to go about it ...

By rules of debate, each side makes its statement, and then argues evidence.

If we take it in the form of a court of law, as the plaintiff the ones who don't believe in a perticular deity have the burdon of proof. (US Law)

If we take it in the form of a civil matter, as the plaintiff the ones who don't believe have to provide preponderance of evidence. (US Law)

So .... there it is.

There have already been hundreds of thousands of texts written on the debate and great thinkers (which I'm sure none of you are) have already been through it all and this conclusion has been reached:

It's a pointless argument. No side will ever win and the argument will ultimately degenerate to insults. If you believe, great! If you don't believe, great!

Bit of a radical change from slaying, pillaging and raping to love thy neighbour. Sounds more like a new 'god' came along, and kicked the old one out.

God has changed the way people view him. He has done this through his son, Jesus. God did not change himself rather he has present a differnt view of himself. Just as humans act differently but the other side is always there. God is..........I cant explain it.

Bit of a radical change from slaying, pillaging and raping to love thy neighbour. Sounds more like a new 'god' came along, and kicked the old one out.

Love thy neighbor is in Torah. It's not a Christian law, it's a Jewish law. None of the 613 laws in Torah say anything about pillaging and raping. Occassionally, the Hebrews were sent by God to take over a particular nation, but not as often as you seem to think - only twice, actually. However, being sent by God to take over a nation doesn't mean it is law to take over nations.

Love thy neighbor is in Torah. It's not a Christian law, it's a Jewish law. None of the 613 laws in Torah say anything about pillaging and raping. Occassionally, the Hebrews were sent by God to take over a particular nation, but not as often as you seem to think - only twice, actually. However, being sent by God to take over a nation doesn't mean it is law to take over nations.


My question is this: Why would a god who is immortal, has the power to create life, and loves us all, have any interest in nations conquering nations? Does he follow politics? What's the point?

[QUOTE=BAAWA].
Also, I challenge you to find the phrase "personal relationship with jesus" in the bible.[/QUOTE=BAAWA]

I am not a realigous scholar, nor have i ever studied it. I do want to. I have no idea where it is found. I have been a christian all my life, i will ask my youth pastor so that when someone else asks me i can know the answer.

I don't believe in a god or gods.

But, I do know this, I'll find out whether there are any gods after I'm dead. :D

Kylara

Love thy neighbor is in Torah. It's not a Christian law, it's a Jewish law. None of the 613 laws in Torah say anything about pillaging and raping.

It is in the christian bible. If you have a copy it is located in Matthew 22:36-39. Jesus is speaking at his trials to the pharasies.

It is in the christian bible. If you have a copy it is located in Matthew 22:36-39. Jesus is speaking at his trials to the pharasies.

It's a Jewish law, in Torah, long before Jesus. See Deut. 10:19 et al.

My question is this: Why would a god who is immortal, has the power to create life, and loves us all, have any interest in nations conquering nations? Does he follow politics? What's the point?

An excellent question! I have a previous - and somewhat long winded - post earlier in this thread that explains some of it. It has a bit to do with this particular deity being intimately tied to the Jewish people and taking a vested interest in their lives.

Thing is, though, if you're not Jewish, it doesn't matter. All of the 613 laws in Torah are for the Jews and nobody else. Torah clearly states that what all other nations and all other peoples do, worship, and laws are of absolutely no concern to us.

We are commanded:
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)

Makes going to war a bit difficult, ya know? Besides, we haven't been commanded to go to war by God since the war with Amalak (long damn time ago).

i believe in a higher power... because... i feel a presence of something larger than me...a force at work... in this life...

some people say i feel this is so death doesn't seem so permanent...and so i won't be fearful of dying...

it may be true to a certain extent...

regardless... it helps me sleep better at night and not feel so powerless to life's ups and downs....

and.. it gives me someone to talk to when... i feel alone...

no draw backs for me...

does this belief make me feel like converting others to this belief... or bombing people who believe differently ... NO ...

people take religion too far...and use it to brainwash others into committing unspeakable acts... and harming others emotionally and physically... that's completely idiotic to me...

FAITH IS FAITH... pure and simple... perception is belief...

xxx :)

I believe in God, Why not, what do I have to lose...

If he doens't excist and I die, I have lost nothing at all.

Buth if I did not believe in me life and he did excist. I Lose a lot.....

So I believe......

Buth I do not believe in God as a person, I think he is some kind of entity

To be honest, I don't really care if god exists or not. Anything that threatens punishment if you fail to worship it, does not deserve to be worshipped, and in fact is worthy only of contempt. If there are a bunch of gods that aren't really bothered whether or not you worship them, then by not worshipping them (or even being aware of their existence), I'm not losing moral ground there either.

This is why it's non-stressful to be a pagan....my tribe, the Cherokee have differences with the over 200 American Indian tribal beliefs systems, some things overlap...but you don't see us trying to convert each other. I accept the Cherokee belief that the world was created on the back of a giant turtle, just as much as I accept the Apache belief that an older beared man awoke up within the disc that was the sun, rubbed his eyes and decided to create the rest of the world...no Hell for our transgressions, no Heaven with angelic choirs if we have accepted one particular diety over another....when I die I will be greeted by Black Man and escorted to the Darkened Lands where I will dwell with my ancestors and Grandfather Creator.

I agree that topics like this are pointless. Any "evidence" could be easily refuted by the different sides. I do have a problem with blind faith, believing everything. I think its important to question the existance of a "god(s)" whether you are a believer or not. Anyway, focus on life, there's nothing more you can do once you are dead. The best you can strive for is furthering your mind and intellect, learn and love.

Anything that threatens punishment if you fail to worship it, does not deserve to be worshipped, and in fact is worthy only of contempt.

To bring the scale down to earth a bit more, you're saying that we shouldn't respect our parents because they will punish us?

Punishment is justice for when we screw up. It exists in every culture of humanity. Unless you're an anarchist, your statement makes no sense.

To bring the scale down to earth a bit more, you're saying that we shouldn't respect our parents because they will punish us?You worship your parents then?

What about Fagtar the mighty?Someone else remembered Fagtar!!!!!!! Whooo hoo!

To bring the scale down to earth a bit more, you're saying that we shouldn't respect our parents because they will punish us?

Punishment is justice for when we screw up. It exists in every culture of humanity. Unless you're an anarchist, your statement makes no sense.

If my parents demanded respect under threat of punishment, then no, I wouldn't respect them. And respect is something very different to worship.

Also, I'm not arguing against the idea of punishment. If you bothered to actually read what I wrote, I'm arguing against the idea of punishment for failing to worship god. See, there's a difference.

Your ability to utterly misinterpret, or possibly ignore, the meaning of a single sentence is quite staggering.

I, myself, am not a SUPER religious freak, but I am a very spiritual person. It is nice to think that you have someone up there watching over you and taking care of you, but it isn't something that completely controls my life.
My mom is a very religious person, and she drills it into our heads to be "that way" 99 million times a day. I've grown up learning to stay on the Goddesses good side "And harm ye none do as ye will". To me it is a very important life rule, though I am not consumed by the Gods and their way the way some people are.
I think a lot of people use religion to escape. They like to have some one (or something) to blame for their problems, and that's understandable. They see praying as a sort of release, something soothing that helps them to see the light. They like to have someone or something to turn to.
I think religion is something that needs to be re-discovered in our world today. It is something a lot of people have lost, and I think it is one of the few things humanity needs to hold on to.

I think religion is something that needs to be re-discovered in our world today. It is something a lot of people have lost, and I think it is one of the few things humanity needs to hold on to.

Why? What can you point to that you, as a believer, have that a non-believer doesn't? Other than that belief, obviously. Possibly some feeling of obligation to obey a certain set of rules. Which I don't think is a particularly good thing, myself.


Wallsy.

I personally believe that the world came into being at the first moment that I drew concious thought. Before that there was nothing and after I draw my last consious thought then the world will cease to exist.

Look into quantum uncertainty and you will see that the simple act of observation, creates the object observed, therefore we each create our own world, including the gods, heaven etc.

Jim SC

Sure, it's possible. And if there isn't one, we can always make one...

I mean, being a god is nothing more than the ability to control millions of sub-atomic particles at once, without much of a effort.

There have already been hundreds of thousands of texts written on the debate and great thinkers (which I'm sure none of you are)

Ah, but you can't know we aren't great thinkers, if we didn't have the possibility to be, or to become, we would have to conclude that humanity as a specie is devolving into back into mere animals...

Also, I challenge you to find the phrase "personal relationship with jesus" in the bible.

This, I think, would meet the definition of "personal relationship".

John 14:15-24 (NIV)

(Jesus speaking)

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

I don't believe in the Christian idea of god...but I like to believe in something, because something is always better than nothing.

to conclude that humanity as a species is devolving into back into mere animals...

This I can agree with 100%. Look around, make your own conclusions. A chimp with a computer is still a chimp.

I don't believe definitely one way or the other. The way I see it, what does it matter? Whether or not there's some omnipotent authority figure, it won't change how I act. (Of course, just in case, I plan to keep a list and confess all my sins on my deathbed. :) )

i do

I have read what a lot of you have been saying and it seems that many of you, although lacking faith that a God exists, would beleive that there is somthing out there. Many people have said that it gives them comfort to 'pray to someone/somthing' when the going gets tough. This would seem to only prove that man has an inate desire to have a god or some supierior being that can watch over them. The general consensus seems to be that people are mostly atheist, struggling with what to believe. I have been around a while, and have tried my fair share of relgions, among other things. Most of the religions I have been a part of, leave you empty or unsure, like many of you seem to be now. I now am a devoted Christian, and a follower of Christ, because the love of God seems to be the only thing that can fill the void I had felt in my soul. I would suggest to you all, to instead of just shooting down any and everything that seems to 'cramp your style' (i.e. the 'rules' of christianity or any other religion) but I would encourage you to try it and see how it makes you feel, because I know that I would have given anything to know what I do now, earlier in my life.


_______________________________________
Cristo es me senor

We all know there is no God it is has been proven time and time again.

This is why you are stupid:
1. Saying that "we all know there is no God" is an untrue statement. In fact, 79% of the population of The United States has professed to believe in a God.
2."This has been proven time and time again." Ok, show me where and when It has been proven. Proving the existance of God is not a scientific experiment. It can't just be 'proven'. And If you want to split hairs, there is more evidence for the existance of a God then there is against it. You stand in the minority of Americans, claiming that your position is correct.
This is much like the debate of Creation and The Big Bang. Neither of them cann be proven or not, since neither of the events can be recrecated.
You lose

I bet half of that 76% is just saying they believe in god because that is just what they were taught and don't want to put any thinking in to it. A quarter actually truly believes and the other quarter believes cause some how it benefits them.

Now about the proof well that is everywhere around you. Things were either built by us or made up by evolution of cells to form natural things.

This is why you are stupid:
1. Saying that "we all know there is no God" is an untrue statement. In fact, 79% of the population of The United States has professed to believe in a God.

out of those 79% how many do you think have actually read the bible and really thought about it?
even shotgun-pumping trailer trash claim they are religious, when they dont know jack shit about their "religion". they think Jesus was cool because he had a mullet.
so why so many people claim they believe in god?
1.its still a catholic country,in higher circles admitting you're an atheist can only hurt you socially.
2.we are, for the lack of better word, brainwashed from our very childhood to believe in god. when we're little we're not given a choice to believe or not,we think if mom says he exists so it must be true. its much harder to unlearn something than take something in.

say someone is raised on a completely isolated island.the same way as an average kid except with noone telling that person what god or religion even is.do you think that person will instinctively(sp?) know god exists and will pray every night and before each meal? hell no he wont and you know it. so if god exists, why a person needs to be told and convinced to believe in it by other people,why cant he find god on his own?

I find it funny that people believe in God, but dont believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth -Fairy.

After reading the Bible, the idea of a magical rabbit that leaves hard boiled eggs in your house on Easter, isnt so hard to swallow, is it?

NO! QUIT ASKING THAT QUESTION!

Seriouslly, it's getttinnnnng realllllllly ooooollllllddddddd

(sorry for the annoying long spellings, I'm really tired)

I find it funny that people believe in God, but dont believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth -Fairy.

After reading the Bible, the idea of a magical rabbit that leaves hard boiled eggs in your house on Easter, isnt so hard to swallow, is it?

Not for me.

But for them? Yessss.....because Jesus was the only tooth fairy for them. Imagine how bummed out the people back then must have been when their Santa Claus was nailed to a post!

what i believe in is a nontangable realm our own
awairnessess are not entirely sepperate from,
but about which no one really knows much of anything
and certainly far less then organized beliefs pretend to.

that by impossing names and deffinicians on it we impose
further barriers between it and our selves
rather then in any way being brought closer to it by them.

asuredly there is that which loves us and wishes us well
but beyond that no one knows its true nature or origen

and likewise if something greater then ourselves that knew
of our existence wished us any particular harm
it is highly unlikely we would exist to begin with

there is no natural requirement for the nontangable to not
exist nor for anything to NEED to exist in order to do so

but to pretend we know very much more about it then that
is to deceive ourselves, something chauvanistic western
beliefs have an unfortunate tendency to get carried away
with doing.

reality is diverse and if there is one thing that diversity
and complexity is telling us it's that if we can't just let
some things remain a mystery that's our problem and not its

=^^=
.../\...

I believe in my dog. He'll do a better job of protecting me than any god.

If there is no God than whats the use of being good? You just live for the moment, and blow away anyone who gets in your way. If there is no god... than there is no eternal afterlife. and without god the law of the universe woulden't be effeciant. everything is run by law. But if there knowone in the beginning to greate the law of the univeres, then there is no univeres at all, ok? just my 2 cents.

So all of a sudden the universe can't exist without a designer/creator. Then i still don't see how god can exist without a designer/creator as he seems to have more of that 'intelligent design' than all the species of the world together.

You also make the huge mistake of thinking that every system of morality is based on the existance of god(s).

Everyone here seems to have a very linear way of thinking. Creator, beginning of the universe, so on. There is no beginning, just as there will be no end. Science even supports this. Right now, the universe is expanding, but many believe that once it slows and stops, it will shrink at the same rate it is currently expanding. A giant rubber band. This is just an observation.

As for gods, my personal belief is that there are many, many gods. But those gods also have gods, just as we are gods to lesser beings. These are the beings of our fantasys and dreams, creatures we do not easily interact with, just as our gods do not easily interact with us. However, if you make the effort to communicate, they are there. Whether you believe or not, they are there. Your reward for believing is no different than for not believing. You are rewarded for following the path your god has set before you. It is up to you whether you do this knowingly or blindly. And if you mess up, and leave the path, you get to try again in your next life. If you succeed, you pass on to the next phase of your existence, to eventually return here, once you have travelled the circle.

But that is just my beliefs, and I am probably crazy.

Yes and no. If by being that is somehow higher, beyond, more powerful or more all-knowing than any other being then no. If you mean one with power to influence, shape, and create the world we live in then yes.

All that exists is god, or a god. Each action (or inaction) no matter how small has ripples that invariably affect the world and shape it, thus we all bear a deep personal responibilty.

This is why you are stupid:
1. Saying that "we all know there is no God" is an untrue statement. In fact, 79% of the population of The United States has professed to believe in a God.


this is why you are stupid:

of Americans who rate themselves as "religious," over 90% belong to the exact denomination as their parents did when they were growing up. so are you telling me that all these people took a full and rational look at all religions and visions of God and decided that, by pure dumb luck, they just happened to have been born into the one true faith? people believe out of habit, my friend, because they are raised to not know any better. the fact that a lot of people are wrong about something doesn't make it more right...the majority of the western world once thought the Earth was the center of the universe, but that didn't make it true.

Just because there is no god doesn't mean we have to be a asshole to everyone we meet. Why does there have to be a reward for our being kind to others and not blowing them up.

Just because there is no god doesn't mean we have to be a asshole to everyone we meet. Why does there have to be a reward for our being kind to others and not blowing them up.

personally i don't see how it is possible to be moral if one believes in the Judeo-Christian sort of God; then everything you do is simply for selfish gain, to get into heaven or avoid hell. you're not finding real, practical reasons to be good, you're just trying to get rewards and avoid punishments the way small children do. i don't think that's morality, that's just being threatened or bribed into good behavior.

personally i don't see how it is possible to be moral if one believes in the Judeo-Christian sort of God; then everything you do is simply for selfish gain, to get into heaven or avoid hell.


Please don't use the term "Judeo-Christian" .... Jews do not concern themselves with Heaven nor do we seek reward after our deaths and Jews do not believe in Hell ... all of that is 100% Christian and has nothing to do with anything Jewish.

Please don't use the term "Judeo-Christian" .... Jews do not concern themselves with Heaven nor do we seek reward after our deaths and Jews do not believe in Hell ... all of that is 100% Christian and has nothing to do with anything Jewish.

I always thought it was Rodeo-Chrisitian, because of all the bull.

Learn sum'tin every day.

no I don't
and furthermore, I find it strange that none of the believers that voted in the poll are leaving replies...they must not be into abuse tonight...

whip me... beat me... call me a Christian :p

Hello

Yes, I believe in a Higher Power. I am not educated in biblical matters, so I have no justifcation or argument that He/She truly exists. Nor am I brave enough to argue if He/She exists. For me, based on my life experiences, choose to believe that something "bigger" than me helps me along the way.

I'm a military wife, a military member, mother of 2 who has endured a quite a few tragedies. I have no family (mother, father, siblings, etc.) to rely on. I have some friends, but not the kind who I could bare my soul to, if you know what I mean. I have spent most of my life relying on myself, and taking on more responsibility than perhaps I should. When things in life go wrong, I tend to assume they are my fault. I spend much of my time wondering, "if I had only done (whatever), then things would be better". I guess you could call me a neurotic perfectionist.

Because of this, I am prone to bouts of depression and intense anxiety. Panic attacks suck. Gradually, as I realized Prozac and booze wouldn't kill my problems, I decided I needed some help in carrying the load of my responsibilites. A friend of mine told me, "girl, you need to surrender!" Surrender to WHAT?---I am the master of my own universe. LOL. Who the hell am I gonna surrender to? I trusted no one.

Then one day I decided to pray to God. I didn't believe in Him/Her, but I wanted to test. After my prayers for more money, more time, a nicer car to cart these kids around in weren't answered, I decided to pray for an uplifting. I just prayed that if there was, in fact, something bigger than me out there, maybe He/She could hook me up and give a little bit of hope?

And it got better. My problems weren't solved, of course. I am still anxious and feel responsible much of the time. But I began to feel like I finally had someone to talk to, to tell my secrets, and to share the load. I suppose in a way I surrendered in that I began to believe I did not have to be all things, to everyone, 24/7. I began to believe I was being helped by something that was wiser and bigger than me. When I cannot pay all of my bills or manage my time, I surrender to the pressure, and pray. I ask for the wisdom or the strength to find a way through it.

And somehow, it always turns up okay.

Like I said, I cannot prove that He/She exists....and maybe my belief is for my own comfort. I try to take a look past at my problems and see the "good stuff" in life...and has time goes on I've become thankful to my Higher Power for giving me the chance to see them at all; because there was a time several years ago I did not think I would live much longer at all.

Had I not had these horrible experiences, I probably would not have the faith I do. So, I thank my Higher Power for my bad experiences as well.

*tears* I'm feeling all mushy inside. LOL Spoken like a true girl I guess. Thanks for reading my opinion. :)

Yes, I do believe in God. I am a Christ-followin, Jesus worshippin, layin down everything for my Creator and Savior believer. God is very real. Just look at the world around you (nature). Does it look like the product of a huge explosion? I don't think so. God created this world in 6, 24-hr days and He rested on the 7th.

And for an explanation of the whole Old Testament/New Testament debate that was going on.....
Sin separates man from God. The Israelite temple consisted of several rooms, the center-most being the Holy of Holies.There was a huge veil/curtain that served as the door. Only the High Priest could enter, and only after he had gone through several cleansing processes could he enter. This included a blood sacrifice accepted by God as an atonement for his and the peoples sins. You see, without that blood sacrifice, no one could enter God's presence, for God cannont condone sin. When His son, Jesus, came to earth, died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later, the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple split down the middle. Jesus's death on the cross was the ULTIMATE blood sacrifice. He was perfect and sinless. He bridged the gap between man and God. Now, we can be in God's presence all the time. I know that for a fact. He walks beside me every day. He listens to my every word. It's the most awesome thing in the world, and I would die before I ever ever renounced my Lord. He's my everything, my all. He is the reason I am living today. Need I go on?

If you want to contact me personally, email me at BrittBrat316@comcast.net
or AIM: RocknFire011 or Yahoo: jesusfreak220

Yes, I do believe in God. I am a Christ-followin, Jesus worshippin, layin down everything for my Creator and Savior believer. God is very real. Just look at the world around you (nature). Does it look like the product of a huge explosion? I don't think so. God created this world in 6, 24-hr days and He rested on the 7th.

And for an explanation of the whole Old Testament/New Testament debate that was going on.....
Sin separates man from God. The Israelite temple consisted of several rooms, the center-most being the Holy of Holies.There was a huge veil/curtain that served as the door. Only the High Priest could enter, and only after he had gone through several cleansing processes could he enter. This included a blood sacrifice accepted by God as an atonement for his and the peoples sins. You see, without that blood sacrifice, no one could enter God's presence, for God cannont condone sin. When His son, Jesus, came to earth, died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later, the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple split down the middle. Jesus's death on the cross was the ULTIMATE blood sacrifice. He was perfect and sinless. He bridged the gap between man and God. Now, we can be in God's presence all the time. I know that for a fact. He walks beside me every day. He listens to my every word. It's the most awesome thing in the world, and I would die before I ever ever renounced my Lord. He's my everything, my all. He is the reason I am living today. Need I go on?

If you want to contact me personally, email me at BrittBrat316@comcast.net
or AIM: RocknFire011 or Yahoo: jesusfreak220

Most of that is 100% grade A pure bullshit.

be specific. let me know what you think is crud.
but before you do... read these....

http://www2.mozcom.com/~renevald/talks/spltveil.htm

and a more thorough explanation.... (http://www.svng.com/wolfe/messages.htm)

be specific. let me know what you think is crud.
but before you do... read these....

http://www2.mozcom.com/~renevald/talks/spltveil.htm

and a more thorough explanation.... (http://www.svng.com/wolfe/messages.htm)

these links lead to very extensive explanations of a popular God-myth. what's your point? none of them give any reason whatsoever why people should view them as more than fairy tales.

Yes, I do believe in God. I am a Christ-followin, Jesus worshippin, layin down everything for my Creator

Everything except that computer, eh?

God is very real. Just look at the world around you (nature). Does it look like the product of a huge explosion? I don't think so.

Oh, so you don't understand how nature could come to be without God, therefore you believe. Haven't anyone told you only God is supposed to be omniscient? You are not omniscient, therefore you do not understand the complexity of natures evolution. That is the simple explanation to your problem.

So in essence, your argument is just a little bit blasphemous. :D

Just look at the world around you (nature). Does it look like the product of a huge explosion? I don't think so.

i think it looks like the end product of a huge explosion. do you have any reason why i should change my opinion, besides that you think so?

Everything except that computer, eh?

look. layin down everything doesn't mean I give up all modern technology and live in a tent. layin down everything means that I will willingly sacrifice anything He wants me to, and it also means that I have given Him complete control over my life. I try not to take certain situations into my own hands. For example, I don't go out and just look for a boyfriend. I trust God that He will send the right person my way when it's time.

Oh, so you don't understand how nature could come to be without God, therefore you believe. Haven't anyone told you only God is supposed to be omniscient? You are not omniscient, therefore you do not understand the complexity of natures evolution. That is the simple explanation to your problem.

So in essence, your argument is just a little bit blasphemous.

No. I am not omniscient. But give me a piece of evidence of evolution. Not microevolution (because THAT kind of evolution is scientific) but macroevolution (which is not).

i think it looks like the end product of a huge explosion. do you have any reason why i should change my opinion, besides that you think so?

ok. That's your opinion. Don't change it because of what I think. If you do though, change it because you see how awesome God made the world. Go out into the country and look at the stars. Or go scuba diving in the Carribbean Sea around the reefs. Or go up to the mountains and look out from a mountain top.

these links lead to very extensive explanations of a popular God-myth. what's your point? none of them give any reason whatsoever why people should view them as more than fairy tales.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

*i'll post more later, when I get back from the pool*

For example, I don't go out and just look for a boyfriend. I trust God that He will send the right person my way when it's time.


Uh huh ... and what if God sends you a Pagan?

ok. That's your opinion. Don't change it because of what I think. If you do though, change it because you see how awesome God made the world. Go out into the country and look at the stars. Or go scuba diving in the Carribbean Sea around the reefs. Or go up to the mountains and look out from a mountain top.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

*i'll post more later, when I get back from the pool*

i have been to the tops of mountains, diving to the bottom of several lakes and seas, to the second-largest observatory in the world, and i have spent 5 years visiting the inner workings of the human body. all of this leads me to conclude that there is no "Creator" necessary for the wonders i see, and, indeed, the wonders are wonderful specifically because they have evolved and developed by practical and natural processes rather than by the wave of some celestial wand. i see nothing in the world to suggest there is a God. don't you have any argument at all? or do you really fall for such a pathetic line of reasoning as "look at the pretty butterfly! God made that! see God exists!"?

your link provided a lot of references that do that same thing you do; they say nothing at all. they say "look how cool this is, God must have made it!" and expect people to be satisfied. they also utterly fail to address the scientific information that directly contradicts them, and think that by not mentioning it they must be winning the argument.

i'm unimpressed, and i would think that if there IS a God he would be ashamed of how bad a show his followers are making of it.

I, probably quite obviously, do believe in God....and it seems that majority of NSers do too.

i have been to the tops of mountains, diving to the bottom of several lakes and seas, to the second-largest observatory in the world, and i have spent 5 years visiting the inner workings of the human body. all of this leads me to conclude that there is no "Creator" necessary for the wonders i see, and, indeed, the wonders are wonderful specifically because they have evolved and developed by practical and natural processes rather than by the wave of some celestial wand. i see nothing in the world to suggest there is a God. don't you have any argument at all? or do you really fall for such a pathetic line of reasoning as "look at the pretty butterfly! God made that! see God exists!"?

your link provided a lot of references that do that same thing you do; they say nothing at all. they say "look how cool this is, God must have made it!" and expect people to be satisfied. they also utterly fail to address the scientific information that directly contradicts them, and think that by not mentioning it they must be winning the argument.

i'm unimpressed, and i would think that if there IS a God he would be ashamed of how bad a show his followers are making of it.

But bottle..just what proof would you accept?..although not a Christian, belief and faith..faith is the acceptance of things unseen....One can not "see" the air..but they know it's there?....Perhaps Man has been able to determine certain physical, physiological and biological actions to explain events around him but does that mean some higher being(s) did not put everything in motion?

People of faith can not give you the evidence you seek...nor will science provide for those of faith anything that can come close to shaking the concept of faith.

Bottle...each sunrise..as I do each sunrise..I repeat a Cherokee ritual of prayer, a ritual whose beginning is shrouded in the mist of time...a method of prayer millenias' old..I go down to "Long Water"...usually a creek, riverbed, or any standing water will do, wait for the sunrise, face east, dip myself 7 times in that water, and pray to Grandfather Creator...can I touch the Gods..no...can I prove scientifcally that they reside in a plane other then this one..no..but yet....I know they are there..I feel their presence in the warmth of the sun hitting my cheek, the way the leaves are blown about in the wind, the movements of the deer..it is faith...something greater then myself..for man is but a small thing on this planet..no different then the rabbit...he is born, he lives, and he dies...just like the owl.

No. I am not omniscient.

Exactly. Consider two answers to the problem: How can the universe be so incredibly fantastic as it is, on it's own?

Answer 1: There's still a lot we dont' know about nature, because the human intellect is limited in understanding.
Answer 2: There is a God.

Now, which one of these two answer are the more farfetched answer?
We know the human intellect is limited, and therefore is not omniscient. You said it yourself. Therefore answer 1 is obviously a very good possibility. Answer number 2, on the other hand, is introducing supernatural beings, for no other reason that there's still something we can't explain.

It's a nice enough theory. And you're free to belive in it. But there's absolutely nothing supporting the theory, other than nature seems too incredeible to understand. But since we know the reason that it seems so incredible is our limited intellect, that problem is already solved.

i'm unimpressed, and i would think that if there IS a God he would be ashamed of how bad a show his followers are making of it.

How can you say that though? You're not a follower and you've obviously closed your mind to the possibility of a God existing, so your point of view is always going to be different than that of someone who does believe in a God. Leave it at that. Believe what you want to believe, but don't make comments like that about something that is important to someone else.

There are no atheists on the gallows.

How can you say that though? You're not a follower and you've obviously closed your mind to the possibility of a God existing, so your point of view is always going to be different than that of someone who does believe in a God. Leave it at that. Believe what you want to believe, but don't make comments like that about something that is important to someone else.

i have not closed my mind to the possibility at all, actually. i simply feel that all the "arguments" presented (and i am using that term generously) are pathetically weak. as a scientist, i can no more accept the "butterflies are pretty therefore God exists" argument than i can accept the "butterflies are pretty therefore the Giant Purple Unicorn exists."

my point of view is that of an agnostic, one who pursues the TRUTH, rather than any one agenda. i don't WANT to prove God does or doesn't exist, i want to find out what the reality of the situation is. unlike most people, i am not rooting for one side or the other, i am simply standing up for the facts and the current limitations of human knowledge. if people are going to make truth assertions then i will expect them to support those assertions or admit their mistake.

i most certainly will never stop making comments about "something that is important to someone else," because to do so would be a disservice to both me and them; if their beliefs cannot stand up to criticism then they need new beliefs, and the sooner they find that out the better it will be for them. i will not pretend to accept invalid (or absent) reasoning on a subject as important as the possible existence of a God or gods, and if you can't deal with that then feel free to go away or to not read my posts.

But bottle..just what proof would you accept?..although not a Christian, belief and faith..faith is the acceptance of things unseen....One can not "see" the air..but they know it's there?....Perhaps Man has been able to determine certain physical, physiological and biological actions to explain events around him but does that mean some higher being(s) did not put everything in motion?

People of faith can not give you the evidence you seek...nor will science provide for those of faith anything that can come close to shaking the concept of faith.

Bottle...each sunrise..as I do each sunrise..I repeat a Cherokee ritual of prayer, a ritual whose beginning is shrouded in the mist of time...a method of prayer millenias' old..I go down to "Long Water"...usually a creek, riverbed, or any standing water will do, wait for the sunrise, face east, dip myself 7 times in that water, and pray to Grandfather Creator...can I touch the Gods..no...can I prove scientifcally that they reside in a plane other then this one..no..but yet....I know they are there..I feel their presence in the warmth of the sun hitting my cheek, the way the leaves are blown about in the wind, the movements of the deer..it is faith...something greater then myself..for man is but a small thing on this planet..no different then the rabbit...he is born, he lives, and he dies...just like the owl.

for the record, we CAN see and measure air, so i don't know why you brought that up in the first place.

to the rest of it, you pretty much seem to be saying that you have a psychological need to feel like there is something more, and therefore you believe that is enough reason to believe in whatever God makes you feel the happiest. you don't seem interested in figuring out anything about God before you worship, which seems risky to me because every prayer you say might be pissing off the real God if there is one, and you don't seem troubled by the fact that you are dependent on myth to feel good.

you haven't yet shown why faith is a good thing. to me, it seems that you have some sort of serious deficiency if you cannot appreciate the wonder of the world without making up fairytales about it, no offense, since the world is too wonderful to need any embelishment. it's okay if you personally need to resort to that, i know you have to cope any way you can, but why would you try to convince other people to trap themselves in such a limited and depressing view as yours? why not encourage them to expand in the ways you are unable or unwilling to do? why not strive to become independent of these myths and imaginary friends, and find the beauty in your world without needing to play lets-pretend?

Yes, I do believe in God. I am a Christ-followin, Jesus worshippin, layin down everything for my Creator and Savior believer. God is very real. Just look at the world around you (nature). Does it look like the product of a huge explosion?
Do not comment on things like cosmology that you have no clue of.

I don't think so. God created this world in 6, 24-hr days and He rested on the 7th.
And nothing dating the universe to 13.7 billion years changes that, right?

And for an explanation of the whole Old Testament/New Testament debate that was going on.....
Sin separates man from God. The Israelite temple consisted of several rooms, the center-most being the Holy of Holies.There was a huge veil/curtain that served as the door. Only the High Priest could enter, and only after he had gone through several cleansing processes could he enter. This included a blood sacrifice accepted by God as an atonement for his and the peoples sins. You see, without that blood sacrifice, no one could enter God's presence, for God cannont condone sin.
WRONG!

The blood sacrifice method was used ONLY for the jews and ONLY for unwitting sins. For jew and gentile alike for sins that you willingly did, the path for remission of sin was sincere, humble, contrite prayer. THAT is what the bible says.

Don't you know that?

When His son, Jesus, came to earth, died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later, the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple split down the middle.
Only one book in the bible records that. It never happened.

Jesus's death on the cross was the ULTIMATE blood sacrifice.
Levitical law forbids human sacrifices.

He was perfect and sinless.
The bible states that no one is without sin.