NationStates Jolt Archive

i think it's woman's choice not the governments. :sniper:

Definitely agree, especially when it's white old men forming the government.

tell that to the males who think otherwise.
:P

I also think that it is the womans choice.

and I think it should be legal because if it was illegal then people would get abortions from back alley doctors anyway and that is unsafe.

I agree, but no abortion after about 24 weeks (which was the limit in some countries IIRC). I think it's somewhat sick once the baby starts to get recognizably human (at 9 weeks it looks like some sort of monstrous slug) but it's not my right to dictate what a woman does with her womb.

I'd say yes to abortion. It should be the mother's choice whether she keeps the baby. An unwanted pregnancy could cause many problems, especially if it happens at a young age. The pregnancy could also cause severe emotional tensions for both mother and child.

Pro-choice all the way!

It's a living being. Just like you or I, merely lacking full development. It has a mind, a body, and (for you non-atheists) a soul. It's just as human as you or I.

I only use the term "it" because it's impossible to determine what gender the fetus is before birth with 100% certainty.

Some people have suggested that this be allowed for rape victims but there is a problem with that, you see. If that happens you will find that the number of rapes in America will exponentially increase.

Even though they won't really.

Do you know where the term "sex" comes from? Sexual reproduction. Note the use of the term "reproduction". If you don't want a baby, don't have sex.

Duh.

Also, congradulations on starting a flame war.

Anti-Abortion personally but Pro-Choice politically, so long as it's an informed choice and there exist real options for women.

I think you should be able to abort your kids until they're 18 ...

As for the rest of the replies:

Do you know where the term "sex" comes from? Sexual reproduction. Note the use of the term "reproduction". If you don't want a baby, don't have sex.

Do you have any idea just how stupid that is? I mean ... can you even begin to fathom the shear, mind-numbing idiocy that goes along with that statement? It smacks of the Christian in his basement, jerking off to kiddie porn while praying to Jesus to damn the photographer for making him sin.

If sex between humans was purely for reproduction, we wouldn't find pleasure in it! My God (not yours, yours is an asshole) you're dense.

Okie dokie, Jedediah, you've had your say, now go help raise that barn.

Do you know where the term "sex" comes from? Sexual reproduction. Note the use of the term "reproduction".

Actually, the word "sex" comes from the Latin sexus, meaning "the state of being either male or female, gender." Sexual reprodution as a term didn't occur until much more recently to denote a type of general reproduction of species where genetic material in the next generation is the result of a mixing of genetic material from the parental generation, or a "cross-over" event. This is in contrast to asexual reproduction, again a "Johnnie-come-lately" to the terminology world, which refers to reproduction without the genetic material exchange.

I think you should be able to abort your kids until they're 18 ...
"Do you have any idea just how stupid that is? I mean ... can you even begin to fathom the shear, mind-numbing idiocy that goes along with that statement?"

On to the next reply.

"Sexual" of "sexual reproduction" is derived from "sexus", latin. "Asexual" of "asexual reproduction" is also derived from "sexus". However, the term "sex" in reference to the act itself, and is derived from "sexual reproduction". "Sex" in reference to gender is derived from "sexus" directly. So, indirectly, you're right. Or perhaps it's a reversal where "sexual reproduction" came after "sex". But let's not debate verbal origins.

Sex causes babies. Don't want babies? Don't have sex! Simple!

Sex feels good because we are designed with two primary protocols: survive and reproduce. The second takes the form of incredible joy during the process.

abortion is a great and wonderful thing, provided the woman is the one who wants it

Actually, the word "sex" comes from the Latin sexus, meaning "the state of being either male or female, gender." Sexual reprodution as a term didn't occur until much more recently to denote a type of general reproduction of species where genetic material in the next generation is the result of a mixing of genetic material from the parental generation, or a "cross-over" event. This is in contrast to asexual reproduction, again a "Johnnie-come-lately" to the terminology world, which refers to reproduction without the genetic material exchange.


And once again the religious right get it wrong when talking about sex. Just like when they say that condoms have little holes that let the HIV through (the holes in condoms are small enough to let individual HIV particles pass but not enough to let seminal fluid get through and as HIV travels in the fluid it can not pass).

Sex causes babies. Don't want babies? Don't have sex! Simple!


Do you think we are still in the 50s? Sex does not "cause babies" usualy as many are smart enough to use a wonderful new invention known as contraception. When the contraception fails to work properly it is not the users fault (unless they didn't put in on properly or used it too late).

Sex causes babies.

I've been married for 8 years.

8 years = 416 weeks.

On average, my wife and I have sex four times per week.

So, you're saying I should have 1,664 babies? Funny ... I only have three ...

Why? Because sex isn't the only factor in making babies.

I repeat: My god you're dense!

THIS JUST IN! Some people are baselessly making fun of religion based on a small percentage of their membership! Also, the pope is catholic and the sky is blue and the human race is mammalian.

abortion is a great and wonderful thing, provided the woman is the one who wants it

Actualy abortion is often a distressing experience, however this distress is the lesser of two compared to the hardships of giving birth to and raising a child you do not want.

And once again the religious right get it wrong when talking about sex. Just like when they say that condoms have little holes that let the HIV through (the holes in condoms are small enough to let individual HIV particles pass but not enough to let seminal fluid get through and as HIV travels in the fluid it can not pass).

Er, um, I'm religious but hardly "right wing". Was this aimed at me? If so, I'm not sure I understand...

no matter what anybody says i still believe it is not the right of the government to tell you what you can and can't do with yourself.

Actualy abortion is often a distressing experience, however this distress is the lesser of two compared to the hardships of giving birth to and raising a child you do not want.

true, there are always consequences for such a serious situation. however, i believe that having safe medical abortion as an option is one of the greatest things to ever happen to women. the alternative is disgusting, quite frankly.

Er, um, I'm religious but hardly "right wing". Was this aimed at me? If so, I'm not sure I understand...

Apologies but often anti-abortion people are right wing. Not always but often.

It's a living being.

Why would you say that? I mean ... you're a prime example of living tissue, but it is obvious that you're under developed. Perhaps you should be aborted. I'll gladly drive your mother to the clinic.

*coff*

true, there are always consequences for such a serious situation. however, i believe that having safe medical abortion as an option is one of the greatest things to ever happen to women. the alternative is disgusting, quite frankly.


Yes, the idea of a woman being FORCED to have to endure labour with the only alternative being to use an unhygenic service that may well kill her utterly repulsive.

:fluffle: well of course you don't want a self inflicted abortion like whoopi goldberg. She used a coathanger, which is no where near sanitary.

Why would you say that? I mean ... you're a prime example of living tissue, but it is obvious that you're under developed. Perhaps you should be aborted. I'll gladly drive your mother to the clinic.

*coff*


hey now, no need to be rude :P

:fluffle: well of course you don't want a self inflicted abortion like whoopi goldberg. She used a coathanger, which is no where near sanitary.

Also coat hanger abortions are highly risky as the foetus is often not removed or torn in half and partialy left inside the womb were it rots and causes infections almost invariably causing death.

Sex feels good because we are designed with two primary protocols: survive and reproduce. The second takes the form of incredible joy during the process.

Then why can only a very few animals be registrated to feel pleasure when in the process to repoduce?

Wolfenstein: Like killing people?

...

Everybody should wear abestos now, we're about to enter a flame war.

Sex, admittedly, does not consistently cause babies, but without it babies do NOT happen. I repeat, babies do NOT happen without sex. How... new. Who would have guessed?

Don't want to have babies? Don't have sex! Babies don't happen without sex unless you go out of your way to cause them, which you probably won't.

Then why can only a very few animals be registrated to feel pleasure when in the process to repoduce?

This is slightly off topic but you know how people say that the only animals that have sex purely for pleasure are blue whales, dolphins and humans right? Not true: my rabbits were both male and had sex all of the time and they certainly had more fun than babies.

it's instinct for all animals to reproduce and I bet the sexually reproducing ones can feel it or they probably would not do it.

Then why can only a very few animals be registrated to feel pleasure when in the process to repoduce?Why do you think that humans are the dominant species?

hey now, no need to be rude :P

Heh ... sorry ... but it's the attitude that grates on my nerves ... it's one step away from saying that women are intended to have babies and a woman who doesn't have babies isn't a complete woman and the only way to properly have babies is to do her wifely duties.

I also can't stand the "sanctity of all life" and "it's a living thing" screamers. Why? Because they always scream it while gnawing on a big steak and cheering as they legally murder a murderer. They don't really care about life or the baby, they only care about exerting their will and dominance on women.

Wolfenstein: Like killing people?

...

Everybody should wear abestos now, we're about to enter a flame war.

Sex, admittedly, does not consistently cause babies, but without it babies do NOT happen. I repeat, babies do NOT happen without sex. How... new. Who would have guessed?.


You ARE in the fifties! Ever heard of IVF?

Wolfenstein: Like killing people?

...

Everybody should wear abestos now, we're about to enter a flame war.

Sex, admittedly, does not consistently cause babies, but without it babies do NOT happen. I repeat, babies do NOT happen without sex. How... new. Who would have guessed?

Don't want to have babies? Don't have sex! Babies don't happen without sex unless you go out of your way to cause them, which you probably won't.

i never intend to have children, and i plan to have lots of sex. give me one reason why you or my government have the right to stop me.

Why? Because they always scream it while gnawing on a big steak and cheering as they legally murder a murderer.
I'm a vegetarian. That hurt.

Why do you think that humans are the dominant species?

What makes you so sure? A simple virus could wipe us out easily. A tree can live 1,000 years while we live a paltry 75. Insects outnumber us by 64 billion to 1.

Dominant? Hardly.

Heh ... sorry ... but it's the attitude that grates on my nerves ... it's one step away from saying that women are intended to have babies and a woman who doesn't have babies isn't a complete woman and the only way to properly have babies is to do her wifely duties.

I also can't stand the "sanctity of all life" and "it's a living thing" screamers. Why? Because they always scream it while gnawing on a big steak and cheering as they legally murder a murderer. They don't really care about life or the baby, they only care about exerting their will and dominance on women.

believe me, i understand...i just don't want you to bring Mods down on your head. as a woman who never intends to have kids, i feel pretty strongly on this issue too.

If you were 15 you really would drop out of school and raise the baby and give up the rest of your life?

I have not met a woman yet who wasn't pro choice. i'm guessing you're a man like me so you will never experience child birth so what business is it of yours what women do? :mad: :mad:

it's instinct for all animals to reproduce and I bet the sexually reproducing ones can feel it or they probably would not do it.

Actualy many animals do not actualy feel pleasure per se but simply are effected by such a strong cocktail of hormones they can not resist.

What makes you so sure? A simple virus could wipe us out easily. A tree can live 1,000 years while we live a paltry 75. Insects outnumber us by 64 billion to 1.

Dominant? Hardly.


The dominant species on earth is of course the mosquito. They are keeping our numbers down by infecting millions of us with malaria, use us as snack bars and all our attempts to destroy them have been unsuccessful.

the reason humans are the dominant species is because we have the ability to think and reason. We are resourceful and tactical. Reproduction has little to do with our dominance as a species

Apologies but often anti-abortion people are right wing. Not always but often.

No problem. My stance as being anti-abortion is based on my own opinion about the sanctity of life. However, I have no illusion that "banning" abortions or outlawing them will make them magically disappear. In fact, if they behave like anything else we've tried to "ban for the good of society", outlawing them would just increase their frequency. I would also never support a law that simply removes a woman's right to the sanctity of her own body. If the goal is to stop abortion and not just criminalize it and drive it underground, we have to solve the societal problems that are leading to women feeling that abortion is their only or best option in the first place. A blanket law does nothing to address issues such as lack of sexual education, lack of support services for single parents and promiscuity without correct understanding of consequences or contraception. Until issues such as these are addressed (as well as others), there will always be a demand for abortions and so long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

So, if a friend came to me and told me she was considering getting an abortion, I'd ask her why she felt this was the only or the best option and try to show her that there are other choices. However, if she decided to continue on with the procedure, I would respect her decision and her basic fundamental right to make it and certainly not demonize her afterwards.

Actualy many animals do not actualy feel pleasure per se but simply are effected by such a strong cocktail of hormones they can not resist.

now you are backtalking what you replyed to me earlier.

And btw, I have seen cows mount(is that a way to say it, actually?) other cows. Both females, so hardly any feelings(sexual pleasure i mean, they might however be able to be lesbians, who knows? =P).

Anyway, if there was a god and he really really was a pro-lifer, wouldn't he in his almightyness just make abortion impossible? ;)

The dominant species on earth is of course the mosquito. They are keeping our numbers down by infecting millions of us with malaria, use us as snack bars and all our attempts to destroy them have been unsuccessful.


mosquitos? they are like the total opposite of dominance. With one swat their gone. humans need to either be shot, infected with a disease, or viciously killed by an animal larger than us like a bear.

Wolfenstein: Like killing people?

...

Everybody should wear abestos now, we're about to enter a flame war.

Sex, admittedly, does not consistently cause babies, but without it babies do NOT happen. I repeat, babies do NOT happen without sex. How... new. Who would have guessed?

Don't want to have babies? Don't have sex! Babies don't happen without sex unless you go out of your way to cause them, which you probably won't.

Ah, good, I'm glad you exposed that whole "Immaculate Conception" thing for the red herring that it really was.

What makes you so sure? A simple virus could wipe us out easily. A tree can live 1,000 years while we live a paltry 75. Insects outnumber us by 64 billion to 1.

Dominant? Hardly.
Note the "s" in "insects". Not all species are that widespread. Let's see here. Humans are the most adaptable species. We are capable of living in the north pole and hawaii. We're almost the smartest (possibly behind dolphins). We have constucted advanced technology (assuming those dolphins haven't beaten us to the punch in their hidden underwater cities) far before any other species has. Misquitos have an incredibly limited lifespan in comparison to us. Trees are consistently murdered. Both of them are limited in comparison to humanity's ability to move around. A misquito under no circumstances is capable of living in the arctic. Neither is an oak.If you were 15 you really would drop out of school and raise the baby and give up the rest of your life?No, what I would do is not have sex. Or at least use protection.

No problem. My stance as being anti-abortion is based on my own opinion about the sanctity of life. However, I have no illusion that "banning" abortions or outlawing them will make them magically disappear. In fact, if they behave like anything else we've tried to "ban for the good of society", outlawing them would just increase their frequency. I would also never support a law that simply removes a woman's right to the sanctity of her own body. If the goal is to stop abortion and not just criminalize it and drive it underground, we have to solve the societal problems that are leading to women feeling that abortion is their only or best option in the first place. A blanket law does nothing to address issues such as lack of sexual education, lack of support services for single parents and promiscuity without correct understanding of consequences or contraception. Until issues such as these are addressed (as well as others), there will always be a demand for abortions and so long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

So, if a friend came to me and told me she was considering getting an abortion, I'd ask her why she felt this was the only or the best option and try to show her that there are other choices. However, if she decided to continue on with the procedure, I would respect her decision and her basic fundamental right to make it and certainly not demonize her afterwards.


Wow! A pro-lifer who talks sense! I have not encountered one of them since Andrew Sullivan... ( www.andrewsullivan.com ) I think you talk alot of sense and I apologise for making the assumption you are a member of the Religious Right. I sometimes feel slightly devided on the abortion issue but when I encounter people we mouths that are more frothy than yours it puts me off the issue slightly. I think that abortion should be kept to before a period when the foetus could stand a chance on surviving outside the womb (around 20 weeks).

believe me, i understand...i just don't want you to bring Mods down on your head. as a woman who never intends to have kids, i feel pretty strongly on this issue too.

Nod ... well .... I'm not a woman (not in the gender sense, anyway, but that's a whole other topic) ... but I was raised primarily by women (mother, two grandmothers, and a great-grandmother) and I have a wife (she's a woman) and two daughters (they will become women) ... women's issues are an integral part of my life.

I cannot and will not ever believe that a woman does not have the ability to choose that which she does with her body and what is best for her. Yeah, sure, the fetus may be a living thing, but while it is part of her body and being completely dependant on her body for everything (go parasite!) then it is 100% the will of the woman what happens to it. I have absolutely no say so. When my wife has been pregnant, my only job was to make sure she was as comfortable as humanly possible.

After all, I planted the seed of the parasite.

the reason humans are the dominant species is because we have the ability to think and reason. We are resourceful and tactical. Reproduction has little to do with our dominance as a species

I'd actually say better ability to think and reason, and resourcefuller and better tactical. And yu are both right on the dominance issue, humans dominate on some areas, others have lived before us and will do so after we are all gone and yet other some can maintain alot higher population and so on.

Actualy many animals do not actualy feel pleasure per se but simply are effected by such a strong cocktail of hormones they can not resist.

I find strong cocktails frequently lower resistance and standards. :)

mosquitos? they are like the total opposite of dominance. With one swat their gone. humans need to either be shot, infected with a disease, or viciously killed by an animal larger than us like a bear.

Or just one bite from a mosquito while we are asleep and defenceless and we are infected with malaria and die! Also you may be able to kill them with a swat but there would still be billions left. As for them not being able to live in the arctic does this make them less dominant? Humans can not even dominate properly there as they will be too cold to fight off polar bears (and guns tend to get to cold to use).

No, what I would do is not have sex. Or at least use protection.

What is the condom broke or the pill failed to work?

I find strong cocktails frequently lower resistance and standards. :)

That and yes it tends to be one strong hormone (testostrone) rather than a cocktail...Er...Um...It sounded better.

Ok, first off, I am pro-choice. It is a woman's body, and she should be able to do with it as she likes. All these men keep saying it's wrong, but they're not the ones that have to live with an unwanted child for the rest of their lives. Men can walk away, and women should be able to as well.


Second off, I am an athiest, but I believe in souls. But I do not believe something is alive until it is born, and therefore, a fetus can not be murdered, since it was never alive.

Note the "s" in "insects". Not all species are that widespread. Let's see here. Humans are the most adaptable species. We are capable of living in the north pole and hawaii. We're almost the smartest (possibly behind dolphins). We have constucted advanced technology (assuming those dolphins haven't beaten us to the punch in their hidden underwater cities) far before any other species has. Misquitos have an incredibly limited lifespan in comparison to us. Trees are consistently murdered. Both of them are limited in comparison to humanity's ability to move around. A misquito under no circumstances is capable of living in the arctic. Neither is an oak.No, what I would do is not have sex. Or at least use protection.

well, they dominzate on some areas. It does depend on how you look upon it. And also, it's because our technology that we can live at the southpole. And thanks to that technology there can also actually grow oaks and live mosqitos there.

And a about sex, no protection is 100% safe. Maybe you didn't know? So, with bad luck you might have to drop out of school afterall.

a fetus can not be murdered, since it was never alive.

And because even if it was not the verb murdered is reserved for born human. I am anti-vivisection but even so it makes me slightly annoyed to see groups like SHAC or PETA misusing an otherwise excellent word to press their point.

Humans are the most adaptable species.

Humans most certainly do *not* adapt. We force the environment to our standards and that is not adapting. We've always been that way. When we were few in number, we ruined one place and moved on to the next. Now, we've covered the planet and there's nowhere left to move, so all we can do is continue to erode the planet until we find a way to colonize other planets.

We don't adapt. We can, but for some reason, we won't. Actually, I know the reason, and it's because we seem to think in terms of Dominion and Manifest Destiny. We don't adapt.

If you ever took biology you would know that the dominant species does not have the biggest population. If it did the lesser species would be depleted therefore ending us. We could kill them off if we wanted to, but it's not like mosquitos are an iminent threat to humans.

Wow! A pro-lifer who talks sense! I have not encountered one of them since Andrew Sullivan... ( www.andrewsullivan.com ) I think you talk alot of sense and I apologise for making the assumption you are a member of the Religious Right. I sometimes feel slightly devided on the abortion issue but when I encounter people we mouths that are more frothy than yours it puts me off the issue slightly. I think that abortion should be kept to before a period when the foetus could stand a chance on surviving outside the womb (around 20 weeks).

While I'm not sure I appreciate the comparison to Andrew Sullivan (who I sometimes agree with and am sometimes sure is blindingly idiotic), I fully accept your apology and completely understand you point. I think most people are conflicted on the issue of abortion, but feel that they have to make some sort of definitive stance one way or the other due to the extreme polarity of both opposition sides. I also personally agree to an extent with your idea of a "viability" period, although this begs questions such as, "What about a foetus with a birth defect?"

I still think the best comment on this whole muddle came from Elizabeth Dole: [She suggests we]recognize that good and honorable people disagree on the subject of abortion, and we should agree to respectfully disagree. While we get so frothed up about the issue of abortion, important issues like domestic violence, child care and parental rights get ignored. Abortion is an important issue, but a blanket law against them is not a long term answer and will not make the problem go away.

And a about sex, no protection is 100% safe. Maybe you didn't know? So, with bad luck you might have to drop out of school afterall.

Unless you abort of course ;) .

If you ever took biology you would know that the dominant species does not have the biggest population. If it did the lesser species would be depleted therefore ending us. We could kill them off if we wanted to, but it's not like mosquitos are an iminent threat to humans.

West Nile,
Malaria,
Yellow Fever...

And your comment about domminance and population size isn't exactly the whole truth. The domminant species cannot have the biggest population size if it acts as a predator on lower species because numbers of the prey species will directly affect the predator species. However, this traditional model may not be applicable to humans, as we have the potentiallity to remove ourselves from the predator/prey structure completely. It all boils down to which specific view of "dominance" you are considering.

While I'm not sure I appreciate the comparison to Andrew Sullivan (who I sometimes agree with and am sometimes sure is blindingly idiotic), I fully accept your apology and completely understand you point. I think most people are conflicted on the issue of abortion, but feel that they have to make some sort of definitive stance one way or the other due to the extreme polarity of both opposition sides. I also personally agree to an extent with your idea of a "viability" period, although this begs questions such as, "What about a foetus with a birth defect?"

I still think the best comment on this whole muddle came from Elizabeth Dole: [She suggests we]recognize that good and honorable people disagree on the subject of abortion, and we should agree to respectfully disagree. While we get so frothed up about the issue of abortion, important issues like domestic violence, child care and parental rights get ignored. Abortion is an important issue, but a blanket law against them is not a long term answer and will not make the problem go away.


Birth defects is an interesting topic, I am not sure that saying a child with a birth defect is more ependable than one with none sends out a bad message. Tricky issue. Let me think.

If it came down to it we would win. malaria and west nile will eventually be cured. without that mosquitos are just drop sized blood suckers.

my opinion is that if a woman didnt want a baby she shoudnt have had sex end of story but thats just me :gundge:

If it came down to it we would win. malaria and west nile will eventually be cured. without that mosquitos are just drop sized blood suckers.

And we are their food source. What is the biggest non-famine or war related killer in the world? Malaria.

Humans most certainly do *not* adapt. We force the environment to our standards and that is not adapting. We've always been that way. When we were few in number, we ruined one place and moved on to the next. Now, we've covered the planet and there's nowhere left to move, so all we can do is continue to erode the planet until we find a way to colonize other planets.

We don't adapt. We can, but for some reason, we won't. Actually, I know the reason, and it's because we seem to think in terms of Dominion and Manifest Destiny. We don't adapt.We do adapt. Tell me how we live in deserts? We adapt. We create shelter, using our ADAPTION skills. That is adapting to the environment. If we were in hawaii we wouldn't design the same kind of shelters. Therefore that is adaption. It is based on our area. We adapt to the north pole by making incredibly thick coats. We adapt to Africa by making huts. And so forth.

we're getting way off topic
this is supposed to be how abortion should be pro choice not darwin's theories.

Wolfenstein: Wait, what?

If it came down to it we would win. malaria and west nile will eventually be cured. without that mosquitos are just drop sized blood suckers.

Yes, well, it's amazing that we can manage to, almost by accident, kill off or drive to the brink of extinction entire species like the manatee or the dodo and yet after years of specifically trying to eradicate the mosquito, we can't quite seem to manage it.

We do adapt. Tell me how we live in deserts? We adapt. We create shelter, using our ADAPTION skills. That is adapting to the environment. If we were in hawaii we wouldn't design the same kind of shelters. Therefore that is adaption. It is based on our area. We adapt to the north pole by making incredibly thick coats. We adapt to Africa by making huts. And so forth.

Then surely it is rats that are the dominant species. Anywhere we go they follow and survive, they can use the fruits of our labour for their own purpose. Maybe not dominant, more subversive but still damned sneaky.

Not in the north pole they don't.

my opinion is that if a woman didnt want a baby she shoudnt have had sex end of story but thats just me :gundge:
well what about rape?
Also, are you saying it's all right for a man to have sex if he dosen't want a baby?

did you know that if I woman gets impregnated by rape the catholic church tells her to keep that baby? btw i'm catholic, it's not like the tell EVERYONE just followers of the faith.

china also has a law that says you can only have one kid.

Birth defects is an interesting topic, I am not sure that saying a child with a birth defect is more ependable than one with none sends out a bad message. Tricky issue. Let me think.

I cba to read the qoute. But i just assume it was something about abortion on babies that would have some defects. I don't think that's such a good idea really. It's the start to start breeding a super-human(arians, actuall. Or atleast they where supposed to be supperior so that's why i used the word) race and I don't think that's ethical enough to do so.

But not entierly sure... ;)

china also has a law that says you can only have one kid.

it's not a law, it just econimically punishes parents that births more then 1 child. It prolly is a law to try to controll the birthrate, but it's not really the way you make it sound. And that would be if a 2nd child is borned you will be punished to sit X years in prison.

Then surely it is rats that are the dominant species. Anywhere we go they follow and survive, they can use the fruits of our labour for their own purpose. Maybe not dominant, more subversive but still damned sneaky.
hell, in the event of a nuclear holocaust, the cockroaches would be all that remains, so really, they're the most dominant.

hell, in the event of a nuclear holocaust, the cockroaches would be all that remains, so really, they're the most dominant.

Don't forget Twinkies, Nike shoes and VW Bugs.

also, i am pro-choice. the option should be available. a fetus is not really a human life...

I have not met a woman yet who wasn't pro choice. i'm guessing you're a man like me so you will never experience child birth so what business is it of yours what women do?

Just a small note: ever notice how the whole topic has always been about women's rights? Ever notice that the idea that men have rights is laughed at on this topic?
Personally, I'm ambivalent as to how, precisely, the rights are balanced, but there are only two that I can see. Either the man should have a legal say in whether or not a pregnancy is aborted, or men should never have to pay child support, except as specified by a divorce settlement.

I mean, think about it... if a woman gets pregnant, and chooses to not have an abortion, against the wishes of the guy involved, he's on the hook for 18 years, on average, while if she chooses to have an abortion he has no say in the matter, even if he desired that she not have one.

On another note.. the number of people I know who were adopted who support abortion, as a percentage, are approximately 0. So there are more reasons to be against abortion than religion, (or in my case, a combination of economics and a desire for consistency) or just being a guy.

also, i am pro-choice. the option should be available. a fetus is not really a human life...

What a horrible thing to say. Have you ever felt a baby kick in the womb? The child grows every day. Just because a woman doesn't start to show until her 4th or 5th month doesn't mean there isn't a tiny life inside. With that said, Abortion is wrong, Abortion is horrible but abortion is legal. The women who get them have to live with their decision the rest of their lives and then must answer to God.

Anarchadian, I wuv you. No, but seriously, you make sense. And to continue on that line of thought, why the hell do people always have to talk shit about christians? Anyways...

So, as we were saying, abortion is wrong. Oh yea, ever hear of a broken condom? Happens all the time. Don't be a fool, wrap your tool. But if it breaks, then how can you kill an innocent being just to serve your own selfish needs. See, the problem is that women who have abortions are only thinking about their own needs, rather than that their baby. There is no perfect method to prevent pregnancy, so if you decide to screw a guy, then you should be prepared to have a kid. As a guy, I live in fear of commitment. However, I don't go around killing stuff so I can avoid my responsibilities. Of course, for a woman it is supposed to be alright? What if that was MY kid? What if it was ME? I was adopted, btw. See, if I do get a girl pregnant, even by accident, I'm not gonna tell her to kill that baby, I'll tell her to keep it, and if she doesn't want it then I'll take it. Since childbirth can be done painlessly now, what does she lose? And with my way, at least no one gets killed. But then again, maybe I'm just a radical christian maniac who doesn't kill innocent creatures, unless they walk on 4 legs (deer, rabbits, stuff like that).

So, as we were saying, abortion is wrong. Oh yea, ever hear of a broken condom? Happens all the time. Don't be a fool, wrap your tool. But if it breaks, then how can you kill an innocent being just to serve your own selfish needs. See, the problem is that women who have abortions are only thinking about their own needs, rather than that their baby.

See, this is actually the problem, acting like a woman who is having an abortion just wakes up one day and does it like she's getting her hair cut or buying washing detergent. I don't know a single woman who has had an abortion, either from my own pool of friends or from my volunteer work, who has ever thought about the procedure lightly. So how does this attitude that "women are only thinking about their own needs" serve any purpose? Why demonize them further? It's pointless and cruel.


There is no perfect method to prevent pregnancy, so if you decide to screw a guy, then you should be prepared to have a kid.

Yes, because as we all know, women have voracious sexual appetites and are completely in control of sexual congress whereas men are the meek and mild, lamb-like followers who are at the mercy of the woman's sexual whim. I assume that this also applies to men, right? That if you're not prepared to have a kid, you shouldn't go around docking your ship in every open harbor, right?


As a guy, I live in fear of commitment.

Charming.


However, I don't go around killing stuff so I can avoid my responsibilities. Of course, for a woman it is supposed to be alright?

No, it's not "alright", but passing a law doesn't solve the problem because it's not that these women are just making an arbitrary choice to have abortions. There are pressures and reasons why they feel abortion is the only option open to them and they agonize about it both before and after it happens. Until you remove those pressures and reasons, then abortions will continue to happen, legal or not, and you will have accomplished nothing other than driving the whole issue underground.


What if that was MY kid? What if it was ME? I was adopted, btw. See, if I do get a girl pregnant, even by accident, I'm not gonna tell her to kill that baby, I'll tell her to keep it, and if she doesn't want it then I'll take it.

That's nice. What about all the other women who don't have that option?


Since childbirth can be done painlessly now, what does she lose?

HA! You obviously know nothing about childbirth. Ask any woman who's given birth if those nine months and however many hours were "painless".


And with my way, at least no one gets killed. But then again, maybe I'm just a radical christian maniac who doesn't kill innocent creatures, unless they walk on 4 legs (deer, rabbits, stuff like that).

Yes, perhaps you are.

did you know that if I woman gets impregnated by rape the catholic church tells her to keep that baby? btw i'm catholic, it's not like the tell EVERYONE just followers of the faith.

Yeah, they also tell HIV-infected men to go home and have sex with their wives without using any sort of protection. ::shrug:: Besides, I've never known a Catholic that actually listened to what the Catholic Church said unless they wanted to - most just do it and then confess it.

Why do you think that humans are the dominant species?
Humans are dominant by intelligence not by numbers so it has nothing to do with enjoying sexual reproduction.

Personally, I'm ambivalent as to how, precisely, the rights are balanced, but there are only two that I can see. Either the man should have a legal say in whether or not a pregnancy is aborted, or men should never have to pay child support, except as specified by a divorce settlement.

Ultimately, it is the woman who is responsible for carrying the child and undergoing labor, so she should obviously have the final say in whether or not to have an abortion. However, I also believe that men should have the option of a "paper abortion" in which they sign away all rights (and responsibilities) to the child before the child is born. However, if the child is born and the father has taken responsibility, he should have to pay child support, etc. in the event that the couple breaks up.

On another note.. the number of people I know who were adopted who support abortion, as a percentage, are approximately 0. So there are more reasons to be against abortion than religion, (or in my case, a combination of economics and a desire for consistency) or just being a guy.

The number of people I know who "support abortion," as a percentage, is approximately 0. The number of people I know that are pro-choice is much higher. See the difference?

I agree, it is the individuals choice. Just like if you don't like seeing janet jacksons boob change the channel, if you don't like abortion DON't have one. :cool:

I may be 16, male and a n00b on this forum (and, for all the picky ones, i am roman catholic too), but that doesn't mean i don't know a thing or 2 about abortion.

In case you haven't of guessed by now, i am quite firmly in an anti-abortion stance, purely because a foetus (can't remember how to spell it) is a living being. It may not resemble any creture on the planet when it is a foetus, but it is still a living being and all living beings have a right to continue living.

I am aware that in some cases there are complications that endanger both the womans and the unborn ones lives. In cases like that, i have no idea what to do, and matters like that should be left in the hands of the mother (it is, after all, her choice to continue living, or die so that the child may live).

Abortion should not be convenience, it should be a last resort. If you've accidentally gotten pregnant, it isn't the foetus's fault is it? So why should it suffer (it could be male or female at the time, which is why i refer to the foetus as 'it')? All I can say is to amorous couples or first timers is to be careful and/or use contraception. I don't think preventing life is the same as ending life :S.

I think that abortion is right... yeah yeah... it's against gods will... but is there god? maybe... but maybe not.... but back to the topic, if a girl gets, let's say raped, then are you saying that she can't kill it because it's a human being? I think it's still kind of a sad thing that a human being can't taste what life tastes like... but I think that it should be the man's fault... (like it is)

BUT in home events... a man forgets the rubber... and the girl gets preagnent (or something like that) then it should be discussed over and over and over again, until both of them agree on what to do... (which in some cases I think happens (I mean the discussing part))

so I say that abortion is RIGHT

abortion as a form of birth control is completely wrong. most people ignore the first CHOICE to use protection in the first place. the only exceptions are rape, and if a condom breaks. people need to recognize the primary choice in sex and not just the secondary. use protection.