NationStates Jolt Archive

Just want to see how misinformed some people here are.

ummm....*shrugs*

*votes U.S.A.*

I believe the US has a better economy, our unemployment is about 5 and a half percent. I point out that most economists see 5% as full employment given that it is given that 5% are usually between jobs. The economy is growing at a robust rate of 4-8.1% each quarter and 1.5 million jobs were created in the last year. The stock market has climbed in the last year, but it has been slowed to some degree by Greenspan raising rates and high oil prices. The oil prices are temporary and shouldn't put too much of a damper on growth in the long term, but there will be more severe short term effects by drops in spending. The interest rate rises will help in the long run as it will cut inflation. Greenspan said he will only raise it .25% in the next 4 months which will allow some to relax. Greenspan predicts more growth in the US economy and forcasted even greater growth in coming months during a speech yesterday.

Socialist France on the other hand has unemployment about 10%. Their tourism industry has been hurting due to US boycotts. This also hurt exports to some degree. Their economy is in full blown recession and nearing depression. They plan to pass some tariffs soon. Tariffs will only worsen the economy as it leads to a trade war that France can't compete in. Prices will rise in France as a result of this. This will lead to a drop in spending and more layoffs just as the Smoot-Hartley tariff caused the US to go into a depression.

HA! France has a growth rate of 0.8%! Thank god i don't live there! :D

HA! France has a growth rate of 0.8%! Thank god i don't live there! :D
It is going to get worst and possibly even negative growth if the tariffs get passed.

The thing that is funny is that Jacques Chirac is claiming that the US Economy sucks and is holding his country's economy back. I agree we are holding them back...

...by kicking their ass in trade.

my impression of the French economy
:headbang:

It is almost unfair to compare. The US has a lot more national resources to supply a plethora of industry. The US is also more of a capitalist state while France is closer to socialist.

It is almost unfair to compare. The US has a lot more national resources to supply a plethora of industry. The US is also more of a capitalist state while France is closer to socialist.
It is Frances fault that they are socialists. It would be unfair If I compared GDP, but comparing unemployment is fair. Same with growth rate. The French have Socialism because the idiots voted for it.

USA, frances economy is terrible.

It seems everyone here is more informed that I believed, I guess this is one case where I'm glad my hypothesis has been proven wrong.

*waits for MKULTRA to vote France*

France's economy isn't terrible, they are among the wealthiest countries in the world. And also, don't forget that economic growth can fluctuate wildly from year to year. I also think it's wrong to label france "socialist" as the vast majority of their industry is privately owned. More left than the USA, sure, but not outright socialist.

That being said, it's impossible to argue that France has a stronger economy than the US, but the definition of better is entirely subjective.

It is Frances fault that they are socialists. It would be unfair If I compared GDP, but comparing unemployment is fair. Same with growth rate. The French have Socialism because the idiots voted for it.

Are you hypocritically racist on purpose or is just because you are a right wing jew?

Maybe its because Europeans like being socialist? Ever thought about that, you complete and utter moron? I am European and I am proud that we are socialist, we dont have poverty rates like you do in the US, or the massive national debt and over burdgeoning military spending. We spend on things that are worthwhile, like Healthcare and Education.

Are you hypocritically racist on purpose or is just because you are a right wing jew?

Maybe its because Europeans like being socialist? Ever thought about that, you complete and utter moron? I am European and I am proud that we are socialist, we dont have poverty rates like you do in the US, or the massive national debt and over burdgeoning military spending. We spend on things that are worthwhile, like Healthcare and Education.
oh boy, a dumb Nazi. He must be the one who voted for France

Are you hypocritically racist on purpose or is just because you are a right wing jew?

Maybe its because Europeans like being socialist? Ever thought about that, you complete and utter moron? I am European and I am proud that we are socialist, we dont have poverty rates like you do in the US, or the massive national debt and over burdgeoning military spending. We spend on things that are worthwhile, like Healthcare and Education.

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Secondly, I'm glad you're happy that you're socialist. Be happy with your misery. We're happy with our superior military and better economy....

Me!

Yes, because a smart Nazi would have voted for the USA.

Hehe.

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Yes, you can. "Racism" isn't quite the right word, but there is no reason you cannot be prejudiced against an entire nationality.

Yes, you can. "Racism" isn't quite the right word, but there is no reason you cannot be prejudiced against an entire nationality.

You're correct. But I'm talking specifically about the word "racism" in this case. One cannot be racist to a nationality. One can be prejudiced against a nationality....but that does not equate to racist.....nationality does not equal race, which is something Nazi Weaponized Virus doesn't seem to understand...

Me!

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Secondly, I'm glad you're happy that you're socialist. Be happy with your misery. We're happy with our superior military and better economy....

Me!
bah... the french military is obviously superior, they have defeated the yankee imperialists in every war they have fought with the us.

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Secondly, I'm glad you're happy that you're socialist. Be happy with your misery. We're happy with our superior military and better economy....

Me!

Hehe, even though the EU has a better economy than the US?

Get your facts straight Mr. IloveBushsoIcantseethefactsanddodoubleposts

Granted you have a better military. But thats it - and lets face it, you NEED a good military as nobody in the World likes you.

-The EU has a better Economy.
-The EU has a better Environment and more regulation on Business.
-The EU has better Healthcare.
-The EU has a better Education System.
-The EU has more social security, amd services for ALL its people, disregardless of wealth.
-The EU has less Poverty.
-Europe has History and Culture.
-Europe doesn't have a monopoly of corporate media.

You are one of those people who I would love to see become poor, and see what its like for people living in Inner City areas and in slums that equate to a 3rd World Country (still think its better eh?).

Go and listen to Rush Limbaugh, I'm sure his ugly fat face will console your racist views.

You're correct. But I'm talking specifically about the word "racism" in this case. One cannot be racist to a nationality. One can be prejudiced against a nationality....but that does not equate to racist.....nationality does not equal race, which is something Nazi Weaponized Virus doesn't seem to understand...

Me!

well race is a very vague unscientific word, you might be able to stetch it to mean any ethnic group, then stretch it again to equal nationality.

You're correct. But I'm talking specifically about the word "racism" in this case. One cannot be racist to a nationality. One can be prejudiced against a nationality....but that does not equate to racist.....nationality does not equal race, which is something Nazi Weaponized Virus doesn't seem to understand...

Me!

Personally, I think the principle behind being racist is the same as being prejudiced against a nationality. There isn't a whole lot of difference if you think about it, really.

How is the EU economy better? Why is it that the only good economy in Europe is Brittain? and they aren't in the EU. The EU has high unemployment. Germany is even worse off than France right now.

How is the EU economy better? Why is it that the only good economy in Europe is Brittain? and they aren't in the EU. The EU has high unemployment. Germany is even worse off than France right now.

uummm... yeah the brits are, they just aren't part of the unified currency.

rofl?

Erm Britain is in the EU, and no its not the only good economy, because Germany's is better.

Ranked 1st * (2004; 2nd, 2002)

€ 9.61·10¹² [1] (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=1-11032004-EN-AP-EN&mode=download)
€ 21,125

hm hm?

Hehe, even though the EU has a better economy than the US?

And your documented cited sources of this are where?


Get your facts straight Mr. IloveBushsoIcantseethefactsanddodoubleposts

Did it ever occur to you, Mr. Over-Generalization, that one can be conservative and not support President Bush?


Granted you have a better military. But thats it - and lets face it, you NEED a good military as nobody in the World likes you.

:rolleyes:


-The EU has a better Economy.

See my first sentence of this post....


-The EU has a better Environment and more regulation on Business.

Better environment? Have you ever stepped outside of a big city? And over regulation of business is a bad thing, in case you didn't notice...oh wait, you're a socialist, so I guess you haven't noticed...


-The EU has better Healthcare.

Socialized healthcare is not better healthcare....


-The EU has a better Education System.

Socialized education system is not a better education system....


-The EU has more social security, amd services for ALL its people, disregardless of wealth.

Social Security is a bad thing, in my eyes. At least mandatory SS is....who is the gov't to tell that you have to give up a portion of your money, (money you'll never see again in your life), to help Joe Blow down the street, because Joe's too lazy to put down the cheetos, get off his couch, get a job, and contribute to society?


-The EU has less Poverty.

Unbiased sources?


-Europe has History and Culture.

And what do you call the history of the United States? And our culture is the one that affects the entire world the most.....


-Europe doesn't have a monopoly of corporate media.

Another :rolleyes:


You are one of those people who I would love to see become poor, and see what its like for people living in Inner City areas and in slums that equate to a 3rd World Country (still think its better eh?).

Oh, because I'm just the richest twenty-two year-old in all of Michigan...yep, that's the truth....uh-huh... :rolleyes:



Go and listen to Rush Limbaugh, I'm sure his ugly fat face will console your racist views.

A: Rush Limbaugh is a nutcase....

B: One of my best friends in the entire world is black...how can I be racist?

Me!

well race is a very vague unscientific word, you might be able to stetch it to mean any ethnic group, then stretch it again to equal nationality.

Ice-cream is a very vague, unscientific word. I might be able to stretch it to mean any frozen yogurt group, then stretch it again to equal orange shurbert.....

Me!

Personally, I think the principle behind being racist is the same as being prejudiced against a nationality. There isn't a whole lot of difference if you think about it, really.

Any you're allowed to think that.....but 'American' or 'French' or 'Spanish' is not an ethnicity or a race....

Me!

If you go by overall total GNP, the EU could have a stronger economy than the US...but i'm not sure on that.

Though calling the economies of the EU countries "terrible" is wrong- they are excellent compared to the rest of the world.

Ice-cream is a very vague, unscientific word. I might be able to stretch it to mean any frozen yogurt group, then stretch it again to equal orange shurbert.....

Me!

exactly, and if you told somebody you had 3 different kinds of ice cream to choose from for dessert, and they said no you don't you have 2 kinds and orange shurbert, you'd tell them to stop being so technical and to shut up, or there'd be no dessert at all for their wise asses.

exactly, and if you told somebody you had 3 different kinds of ice cream to choose from for dessert, and they said no you don't you have 2 kinds and orange shurbert, you'd tell them to stop being so technical and to shut up, or there'd be no dessert at all for their wise asses.

:)

It's not right to compare. You guys are forgetting that these countries were totally destroyed by WWII, and WWI. It's truly not fair to compare, I think that Europe did very good recovering considering the effects and all the money Germany had to pay back.

Any you're allowed to think that.....but 'American' or 'French' or 'Spanish' is not an ethnicity or a race....

Me!

No, it's not "Racism". But the point I am trying to make is that if someone is prejudiced against all Frenchmen or Americans- Isn't that no better than racism?

It's not right to compare. You guys are forgetting that these countries were totally destroyed by WWII, and WWI. It's truly not fair to compare, I think that Europe did very good recovering considering the effects and all the money Germany had to pay back.

The US bailed out all of Europe after both situations....the only country to fully pay us back was Finland (props for that, Finland! ;) ). France and Britain still, technically, owe us billions of dollars....not that we're collecting or anything..... :p

No, it's not "Racism". But the point I am trying to make is that if someone is prejudiced against all Frenchmen or Americans- Isn't that no better than racism?

You're right -- it's no better than racism.....

The US bailed out all of Europe after both situations....the only country to fully pay us back was Finland (props for that, Finland! ;) ). France and Britain still, technically, owe us billions of dollars....not that we're collecting or anything..... :p

What he means is that there was no war damage to the continental USA- France, Italy, Britain, Belgium, Germany, Poland, etc, etc. were reduced to little more than rubble in many areas. The USA was in the unique position of being able to fight a war without being damaged directly.

What he means is that there was no war damage to the continental USA- France, Italy, Britain, Belgium, Germany, Poland, etc, etc. were reduced to little more than rubble in many areas. The USA was in the unique position of being able to fight a war without being damaged directly.

I understood what he went and that is correct -- the US escaped the infastructure destruction because it wasn't fought on our soil......I just felt the need, for whatever reason, to bring up the fact about Europe (minus Finland, :p ) never paid us back what they owed us....but that's really a minor detail....

And your documented cited sources of this are where?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU
as well as the EU Website
As well as common economic knowledge about The Economy,
and the fact my brother is an investment banker with a masters in economic from the LSE.

Did it ever occur to you, Mr. Over-Generalization, that one can be conservative and not support President Bush?

Wow, how noble of you! I bet your even noble enough to disagree with corporate fraud and Rush Limbaugh!

Better environment? Have you ever stepped outside of a big city? And over regulation of business is a bad thing, in case you didn't notice...oh wait, you're a socialist, so I guess you haven't noticed...

Regulation of Business a bad thing? ENRON, WORLDCOM TRA LA LA LA LA!!! Businesses are accountable to the PUBLIC through consumer rights, not to rich shareholders through cutting costs
As for the socialist comment? As a mate of mine told me once, "What do you expect? They have had 50 years of propoganda anti-anything that teaches them collective responsibility - hence 'commie sauce'"
And the environment? The EU has built up an army of legislation protecting the Environment such as the CAP and the CFP.

Socialized healthcare is not better healthcare....

This 'socialized' healthcare, is it quite socialable?
No really, it is better as it means that it is Publically Accountable and available to all, regardless of wealth. The NHS is the jewel in Britains crown in my opinion, a true success story of socialism despite all its flaws.

Socialized education system is not a better education system....

.....I guess your brainpower is limited to repeating things then. Ok I'll explain,
'socialized' (as you like to call it) education is accountable to the public, and is Government funded rather than funded by business organisations only intent on making a profit.

Social Security is a bad thing, in my eyes. At least mandatory SS is....who is the gov't to tell that you have to give up a portion of your money, (money you'll never see again in your life), to help Joe Blow down the street, because Joe's too lazy to put down the cheetos, get off his couch, get a job, and contribute to society?

.....Now you are slipping into rhetoric, as well as right wing rubbish. Social Security in Europe allows people to maintain a basic standard of living - as well as own a small flat. Sure I dont like 'benefit cheats' as we call them, but I'm not short sighted enough to believe that everyone claiming benefits is 'an evil person out to steal your tax money!!!', they may be frictionally unemployed, or cyclically unemployed according to thier industry, thats not necessarily thier fault.

And what do you call the history of the United States? And our culture is the one that affects the entire world the most.....

A History that pales in comparison to the rich History of Europe.
You culture isn't 'culture' its corporate globalisation, there is a big difference between playing tavli in a taverna (I am Greek Cypriot) and eating a McDonalds.

A: Rush Limbaugh is a nutcase....

B: One of my best friends in the entire world is black...how can I be racist?

Me!

Well thats good to hear, but unfortunately a hell of alot of Republicans aren't as tolerant as you concerning race, no I'm not generalising, look at Limbaugh himself, hes as racist as you are going to get and then look at his massive following who always claim his critiscm is 'political correctness'.

What he means is that there was no war damage to the continental USA- France, Italy, Britain, Belgium, Germany, Poland, etc, etc. were reduced to little more than rubble in many areas. The USA was in the unique position of being able to fight a war without being damaged directly.



There was damge to the continental USA durning WW2, just not alot. Japan mad bombs out of ballons and sent them into the jet stream, Sent them right into our country, only killed about 12 and most failed, but it did happen, Thousands have been found.

Because 12 really compares to the 15-20 million Russian civilians who died, and recent estimates suggest it may even have been larger than that.

Nazi Weaponized Virus you can't win here, so just be quiet. FYI, The Government funds our schools to, not big bussiness, some donate, But that is something they choose to, Most money comes from the Government.

Because 12 really compares to the 15-20 million Russian civilians who died, and recent estimates suggest it may even have been larger than that.


Are you done now? Good, Hush up. I was just stating a fact, thats all.

Nazi Weaponized Virus you can't win here, so just be quiet. FYI, The Government funds our schools to, not big bussiness, some donate, But that is something they choose to, Most money comes from the Government.

Actually quite alot donate, and they don't have as noble intentions as you would believe.

Actually quite alot donate, and they don't have as noble intentions as you would believe.



Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeeee, I believe you! ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU
as well as the EU Website
As well as common economic knowledge about The Economy,
and the fact my brother is an investment banker with a masters in economic from the LSE.

The EU has a higher economy as a whole...it's a conglomerate of nations.....of course it has a higher economy...your own source states that the US has the highest GDP of any single nation.....


Regulation of Business a bad thing? ENRON, WORLDCOM TRA LA LA LA LA!!! Businesses are accountable to the PUBLIC through consumer rights, not to rich shareholders through cutting costs
As for the socialist comment? As a mate of mine told me once, "What do you expect? They have had 50 years of propoganda anti-anything that teaches them collective responsibility - hence 'commie sauce'"
And the environment? The EU has built up an army of legislation protecting the Environment such as the CAP and the CFP.

I do believe you may need reading glasses. I stated over-regulation of business is a bad thing.....


This 'socialized' healthcare, is it quite socialable?
No really, it is better as it means that it is Publically Accountable and available to all, regardless of wealth. The NHS is the jewel in Britains crown in my opinion, a true success story of socialism despite all its flaws.

It's simply socialism. The gov't assumes everyone is too stupid to be able to handle their lives and they feel the need to handle it for them....it's not a success story, it's a sad story....


.....I guess your brainpower is limited to repeating things then. Ok I'll explain,
'socialized' (as you like to call it) education is accountable to the public, and is Government funded rather than funded by business organisations only intent on making a profit.

You sure do like to make ad hominems, don't you? And government-run education is a bad thing....


.....Now you are slipping into rhetoric, as well as right wing rubbish. Social Security in Europe allows people to maintain a basic standard of living - as well as own a small flat. Sure I dont like 'benefit cheats' as we call them, but I'm not short sighted enough to believe that everyone claiming benefits is 'an evil person out to steal your tax money!!!', they may be frictionally unemployed, or cyclically unemployed according to thier industry, thats not necessarily thier fault.

More ad hominems...do you ever stop?


A History that pales in comparison to the rich History of Europe.

Uh...duh, that's because you're older than we are....and your history is nothing but continual bloodshed.....(and people have the nerve to call America warmongers...) From 1945 to the present is the longest time Europe has gone without a major conflict....


You culture isn't 'culture' its corporate globalisation, there is a big difference between playing tavli in a taverna (I am Greek Cypriot) and eating a McDonalds.

No, our culture is not just McDonalds and Wal-Marts....that's just what our businesses spread overseas....that and David Hasselhoffe.... ;)


Well thats good to hear, but unfortunately a hell of alot of Republicans aren't as tolerant as you concerning race, no I'm not generalising, look at Limbaugh himself, hes as racist as you are going to get and then look at his massive following who always claim his critiscm is 'political correctness'.

Careful now, you wouldn't want to break your leg jumping to such high conclusions.....I'm not a Republican....

Me!

Because 12 really compares to the 15-20 million Russian civilians who died, and recent estimates suggest it may even have been larger than that.

No, but the 300,000+ we lost saving the world makes up for that....if it wasn't for us and Britian, you'd be goose-stepping right now and burning books instead of reading them....

Me!

Europeans have killed more people than all other nations put together, times 1,000.

There was damge to the continental USA durning WW2, just not alot. Japan mad bombs out of ballons and sent them into the jet stream, Sent them right into our country, only killed about 12 and most failed, but it did happen, Thousands have been found.

Heh, I'm talking about whole cities being razed. Dresden, Warsaw, Coventry...

12 people hardly make an impact on the overall industrial capacity of a nation :)

As for the EU nations not paying the USA back- The "payback" was their aid in stopping the spread of Communism.

Heh, I'm talking about whole cities being razed. Dresden, Warsaw, Coventry...

12 people hardly make an impact on the overall industrial capacity of a nation :)

As for the EU nations not paying you back- The "payback" was their aid in stopping the spread of Communism.



I was just saying it happened, thats all. BTW, America stopped the spread of Communism, Not Europe.

I understood what he went and that is correct -- the US escaped the infastructure destruction because it wasn't fought on our soil......I just felt the need, for whatever reason, to bring up the fact about Europe (minus Finland, :p ) never paid us back what they owed us....but that's really a minor detail....

Acctually, the Japanese were invading US soil. It was just a small island up by Alaska. The only battle that was fought on US soil. I can't remember the name of the small island. But that's not the point. The entire countries in Europe was leveled to ruble. The only real Tragedy that happed on US property was Pearl Harbor. But we're talking ships here. And in Europe, we're talking cities and villages. But eh, i'm done rambling on. But it's true that it's not fair to compare the two when France was up in flames twice by Germany and America not at all. To me that says a lot and I tend to be agreeing with Nazi Weaponized Virus. France doesn't have the same problems that America has, with all the corprate crimes, and complete chaos, in my eyes, because America has that constant "want to be a better class". People's egos in America are huge, the large corperations dont care about the small man, they only care about their money.

I was just saying it happened, thats all. BTW, America stopped the spread of Communism, Not Europe.


really i heard it was secretly the french and belgian intelligence services that brought down the soviet union. i heard gorby was a french sleeper, planted in the early 60s under degaulle.

Yeah, as if we don't have a national debt.

Sorry folks, but saying "you're country owes me money!" is the same as talking into your asshole. Get real-we're not going to pay, THEY arn't going to pay.


Besides, American wouldn't exist if the French didn't have our backs.

I was just saying it happened, thats all. BTW, America stopped the spread of Communism, Not Europe.

The US needed Western Europe.

Yeah, as if we don't have a national debt.

Sorry folks, but saying "you're country owes me money!" is the same as talking into your asshole. Get real-we're not going to pay, THEY arn't going to pay.


Besides, American wouldn't exist if the French didn't have our backs.


That is an old arguement, We didn't need France, America would still be here with or without France.

The US needed Western Europe.


As a military front.

The EU has a higher economy as a whole...it's a conglomerate of nations.....of course it has a higher economy...your own source states that the US has the highest GDP of any single nation.....

The EU itself was founded on the basis of being equivalent or close to, a single economic unit. It was believed Economic cooperation would lead to greater prosperity for all, and most importantly peace. Though those were the early years, the greater cooperation came when the Maastricht treaty was signed.

I do believe you may need reading glasses. I stated over-regulation of business is a bad thing.....

We both have conflicting ideas of what the term 'over regulation' means.

It's simply socialism. The gov't assumes everyone is too stupid to be able to handle their lives and they feel the need to handle it for them....it's not a success story, it's a sad story....

Nope, Socialism in Europe is on the basic principle that some people have a head start in life. Basically there is no such thing as equal opportunity as some areas have better education/opportunities, and others, especially inner city, have worse. Socialism aims to address these problems, and in Europe coupled with a degree of Capitalism, it seems to be working.

You sure do like to make ad hominems, don't you? And government-run education is a bad thing....

*Sighs* You know a well used latin phrase. Well done, Argument won.

Uh...duh, that's because you're older than we are....and your history is nothing but continual bloodshed.....(and people have the nerve to call America warmongers...) From 1945 to the present is the longest time Europe has gone without a major conflict....

Continual Bloodshed? Actually we have engaged in less Wars than the US has in the 20th Century, mainly because we thought the Truman Doctrine was nothing but inflamatory rubbish. Oh and how right we were proved in Vietnam!

No, our culture is not just McDonalds and Wal-Marts....that's just what our businesses spread overseas....that and David Hasselhoffe.... ;)

Explain your 'real' culture then, your national food, national pastimes and to a lesser extent, thing such as architecture e.t.c. (oh wait, all of your architecture is based on Greek design, as was your constitution)

I was just saying it happened, thats all. BTW, America stopped the spread of Communism, Not Europe.

What happened?
I suppose when Reagan (May his soul rot in hell) called the Soviet Union the evil empire they realised they were and decided to disband?

It was rather internal pressures that brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union, the failed coup was the final nail in the coffin.

I was just saying it happened, thats all. BTW, America stopped the spread of Communism, Not Europe.

Please, let's try to remember that we're allies and we did it together. You know, that little thing called NATO? It was a mutual effort and any sort of percentage breakdown of effort is asinine.

I have no patience for my fellow countrymen who go around telling Europeans that we saved them from Communism. Yes, I happen to believe that President Reagan was instrumental in the USSRs collapse, but he could not have done it had Thatcher not also been in power at the same time. It was perhaps the most perfect pairing of similiar thinking leaders of allied nations in history. And let's not forget Norway that guarded the northern approaches or Germany that stood the most to lose if everything went to hell or Turkey that watched the entrance to the Med or...you get my point?

Reagan was a TRUE American Patriot and Great Liberator for the Eastern Half of your precious EU (whom many are America's closes European allies, POLAND, HUNGARY etc.)

Please, let's try to remember that we're allies and we did it together. You know, that little thing called NATO? It was a mutual effort and any sort of percentage breakdown of effort is asinine.


Unfortunately for America, Europe is moving more and more towards a European Defence Force rather than NATO.

After the fall of communism NATO isn't needed anymore (no more Warsaw Pact)

Reagan was a TRUE American Patriot and Great Liberator /

Just like he was a 'great liberator' of Central America and inparticular Nicaragua eh?

Because he was SUCH a great liberator, the ICJ accused him of 'unlawful use of force' which one justice said in his report 'equated to International Terrorism' when concerning Nicaragua. But it doesn't matter! Because he was a PATRIOT!!!!!!

That is an old arguement, We didn't need France, America would still be here with or without France.

Someone doesn't know his history. America didn't have snowball's chance in hell without France backing it up.

Reagan was a TRUE American Patriot and Great Liberator for the Eastern Half of your precious EU (whom many are America's closes European allies, POLAND, HUNGARY etc.)



I agree with you 100%!

Someone doesn't know his history. America didn't have snowball's chance in hell without France backing it up.


I guess me being a History major doesn't count for much? We didn't need France, all they did was shorten our victory.

Just like he was a 'great liberator' of Central America and inparticular Nicaragua eh?

Because he was SUCH a great liberator, the ICJ accused him of 'unlawful use of force' which one justice said in his report 'equated to International Terrorism' when concerning Nicaragua. But it doesn't matter! Because he was a PATRIOT!!!!!!

I'd like to take back this quote. Even though Reagan committed War Crimes the fact he was a 'Patriot' overrides this. Truly he is up in heaven now with Jesus and even considered an equal to God himself, and all because, deep down, he was a true Nationalist.

Just like he was a 'great liberator' of Central America and inparticular Nicaragua eh?

Because he was SUCH a great liberator, the ICJ accused him of 'unlawful use of force' which one justice said in his report 'equated to International Terrorism' when concerning Nicaragua. But it doesn't matter! Because he was a PATRIOT!!!!!!

When does America with its "Cowboy Politics" ever listen to the ICJ

The Monroe doctrine is justification enough for his actions in Nicaragua study your American History you may (God Forbid) learn something

I agree with you 100%!
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!! :)

Just like he was a 'great liberator' of Central America and inparticular Nicaragua eh?

Because he was SUCH a great liberator, the ICJ accused him of 'unlawful use of force' which one justice said in his report 'equated to International Terrorism' when concerning Nicaragua. But it doesn't matter! Because he was a PATRIOT!!!!!!

I agree, maney Americans can't see past the constant stories that their president tells them and the press tells them. Nazi Weaponized Virus, you must understand that it is not their fault that they do not realise it. They sit in front of their television sets and watch the press for their source of information. That explains a lot.

I agree, maney Americans can't see past the constant stories that their president tells them and the press tells them. Nazi Weaponized Virus, you must understand that it is not their fault that they do not realise it. They sit in front of their television sets and watch the press for their source of information. That explains a lot.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE AMERICAN MASS MEDIA! HAVE YOU... they are completely bias toward people like Reagan. The only time they liked Reagan was when he died.

I agree with you 100%!


i agree with you 7 to 12% depending on how well i understand some of your more obscure positions.

The Mass Media Of America Is Bias Against People Like Reagan.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE AMERICAN MASS MEDIA! HAVE YOU... they are completely bias toward people like Reagan. The only time they liked Reagan was when he died.


Damn Liberal media! :mad:

I'd rather say "USA or Europe, who has a stronger economy"

Damn Liberal media! :mad:
You better believe it!!!

When does America with its "Cowboy Politics" ever listen to the ICJ

The Monroe doctrine is justification enough for his actions in Nicaragua study your American History you may (God Forbid) learn something

The Monroe Doctrine itself is not relevant as it was drafted in the 19th Century and secondly because it could construed in many different ways. By your idea of Sovereign Countries own legislation being enough justification to provide a precursor for War, The UK could draft a peace of legislation tomorrow saying that anyone interfering with thier 'economic interests' (ironic as this is what is construed by the term 'interference' in the Monroe Doctrine) could have 'appropriate force' levelled against them.

Using States specific legislation to back up thier foreign adventures is ridiculous as the legislation is bound to be writted from a bias perspective and can be interpretted in many ways, plus a 160 year old piece of legislation is in no way relevant to the Central American problems of the day.

The only legislation that should provide justification for War is a UN Resolution.

CHB, Sudaea...you guys enjoying your two man circle-jerk? :p

You better believe it!!!


Why aren't you logged in?

The UN screwed their reputation with the WHOLE* Iraq controversy.

*After the end of Gulf War 1990 to Present

Why aren't you logged in?
Im new

Why aren't you logged in?
plus where do you do that?

Gents, and I use the term loosely, keep it to TGs. No need to clog up the board.


Sudaea, please go to www.nationstates.net if you wish to sign up.

The UN screwed their reputation with the WHOLE* Iraq controversy.

*After the end of Gulf War 1990 to Present

By that you mean, "They screwed up thier reputation by not agreeing to American demands for a ridiculous resolution." Or how about US failures to comply with UN resolutions, or even at some stages keeping controversial matters off the agenda entirely, Inparticularly, Article 14 of UN Resolution 687 and its references to Israel.

The only legislation that should provide justification for War is a UN Resolution.

Are you kidding? So if those bloodthirsty Canadians were massing at our border and preparing to invade in 24 hours, you actually think the US should be required to go to the UN before striking the Canadians? Get real.

(My sincerest apologies to any Canadians reading that. A strictly hypothetical situation obviously and I had to pick between Canada or Mexico considering I was talking about massing at borders.)

What's your problem with a nation standing up for itself?
Nations are like people...they have a free will of their own and With America, they choose who they support and Israel is a hell of a lot more worth of America's Support than Europe.

Are you kidding? So if those bloodthirsty Canadians were massing at our border and preparing to invade in 24 hours, you actually think the US should be required to go to the UN before striking the Canadians? Get real.

(My sincerest apologies to any Canadians reading that. A strictly hypothetical situation obviously and I had to pick between Canada or Mexico considering I was talking about massing at borders.)


could of said Cuba (haha)

Bleh, you underappreciate America. Without us you wouldn't have Playboy! That is quality! We started this trend... well restarted.

could of said Cuba (haha)
The United States does not share a border with Cuba. We're seperated by roughly 90 miles of sea.

Dude, playboy is low, low, LOW quality.

Fake boobs are dumb

The United States does not share a border with Cuba. We're seperated by roughly 90 miles of sea.
Cuba is only 90 miles off the shores of Florida though..

Bleh! We gave you porn! Well... restarted and gave you porn. Not only that we gave you Viagra too! I think... meh...

USA all the way

LOL!

I love the name xD

I find it very stupid to be arguing about what country is better. As if either the US or France was a perfect country. Is socialism better than capitalism? Depends on your personnal values. Of course americans have a bigger military. As big as their egos. Of course French are big pussies. As big as their brains. The world is made of many countries working together, wether they like it or not. The U.S. wouldn't be so rich if it were not for China, Germany, the U.K., France, Canada, most of south America, for every damn country on this planet as a matter of fact. To become rich, you need to get poor people to do the dirty jobs for you. That is capitalism, and it exists in every "civilized" nation.

Who sells you oil, iron, copper, wood, chemicals, semiconductors and other raw materials so you can have cool electronics, fancy cars and effective medecines? Who do you think get to grow opium, to mine ore in horrible conditions, to harvest sulfur from active volcanos, to make footballs and Nike shoes? I can't believe a single American, while driving his car and speaking on his mobile phone, can honestly think he doesn't need any other country, while the people who made his phone and car possible are working twice as hard for a fraction of the benefits.

Face it: Rich countries are rich because the rest of the world does most of the job at a lower cost. In that perspective, arguing about who has the better economy is pointless.

Both U.S. and France are equally unfair.

I find it very stupid to be arguing about what country is better. As if either the US or France was a perfect country. Is socialism better than capitalism? Depends on your personnal values. Of course americans have a bigger military. As big as their egos. Of course French are big pussies. As big as their brains. The world is made of many countries working together, wether they like it or not. The U.S. wouldn't be so rich if it were not for China, Germany, the U.K., France, Canada, most of south America, for every damn country on this planet as a matter of fact. To become rich, you need to get poor people to do the dirty jobs for you. That is capitalism, and it exists in every "civilized" nation.

Who sells you oil, iron, copper, wood, chemicals, semiconductors and other raw materials so you can have cool electronics, fancy cars and effective medecines? Who do you think get to grow opium, to mine ore in horrible conditions, to harvest sulfur from active volcanos, to make footballs and Nike shoes? I can't believe a single American, while driving his car and speaking on his mobile phone, can honestly think he doesn't need any other country, while the people who made his phone and car possible are working twice as hard for a fraction of the benefits.

Face it: Rich countries are rich because the rest of the world does most of the job at a lower cost. In that perspective, arguing about who has the better economy is pointless.

Both U.S. and France are equally unfair.
Good somebody who's not bias Good show!! ;)

Are you kidding? So if those bloodthirsty Canadians were massing at our border and preparing to invade in 24 hours, you actually think the US should be required to go to the UN before striking the Canadians? Get real.

(My sincerest apologies to any Canadians reading that. A strictly hypothetical situation obviously and I had to pick between Canada or Mexico considering I was talking about massing at borders.)

You could have at least penned a realistic situation rather than what you said. But anyone can hypothesise like that: For example.

"Why shouldn't we have lax gun laws? Are you telling me that if there was a Zombie invasion you would feel more safe with less guns?"

I find it very stupid to be arguing about what country is better. As if either the US or France was a perfect country. Is socialism better than capitalism? Depends on your personnal values. Of course americans have a bigger military. As big as their egos. Of course French are big pussies. As big as their brains. The world is made of many countries working together, wether they like it or not. The U.S. wouldn't be so rich if it were not for China, Germany, the U.K., France, Canada, most of south America, for every damn country on this planet as a matter of fact. To become rich, you need to get poor people to do the dirty jobs for you. That is capitalism, and it exists in every "civilized" nation.

Who sells you oil, iron, copper, wood, chemicals, semiconductors and other raw materials so you can have cool electronics, fancy cars and effective medecines? Who do you think get to grow opium, to mine ore in horrible conditions, to harvest sulfur from active volcanos, to make footballs and Nike shoes? I can't believe a single American, while driving his car and speaking on his mobile phone, can honestly think he doesn't need any other country, while the people who made his phone and car possible are working twice as hard for a fraction of the benefits.

Face it: Rich countries are rich because the rest of the world does most of the job at a lower cost. In that perspective, arguing about who has the better economy is pointless.

Both U.S. and France are equally unfair.
Good somebody who's not bias Good show!!

[QUOTE=IDF]The oil prices are temporary and shouldn't put too much of a damper on growth in the long term...

This is from a little ways back but it is complete rubbish. Oil prices will stay high and will only increase until they are high enough to justify extracting and purifying the oil from the Alberta Tar Sands in Canada, which contain more oil than there ever was in all the Middle East. It's just expensive to get it out of the sand. There will then be a 'plateau' in oil prices as that source is exploited, and then the rise will continue. There may be a slight drop on the plateau as more efficient extraction methods are found.

The supply is running down gradually...

What's your problem with a nation standing up for itself?
Nations are like people...they have a free will of their own and With America, they choose who they support and Israel is a hell of a lot more worth of America's Support than Europe.

Israel is not your 'friend' it costs you billions of dollars a year as well as a world of hate from The surrounding Arabic states. Rhetoric about Israel and the fact that it being a democracy in the middle-east overshadows any critiscm is so prevalent these days I cant even be bothered to go into detail about it.

And on a side note. Does Europe actually WANT to be friends with you? I think France and Germany speak for pretty much all of us when talking about your foreign policy over the past 40 years.

You could have at least penned a realistic situation rather than what you said. But anyone can hypothesise like that: For example.

"Why shouldn't we have lax gun laws? Are you telling me that if there was a Zombie invasion you would feel more safe with less guns?"
Zombies... really...nope a better hyposthesis would be if a girl scout troop invading France

You could have at least penned a realistic situation rather than what you said. But anyone can hypothesise like that: For example.

"Why shouldn't we have lax gun laws? Are you telling me that if there was a Zombie invasion you would feel more safe with less guns?"

I purposely chose a ridiculous situation because I knew you'd have to back away from your blanket claim that the only possible justification for a war is a UN resolution. If you have to make ONE exception, your premise is shot.

As far as why we should have lax gun laws, that's easy. The Second Amendment. :)

Israel is not your 'friend' it costs you billions of dollars a year as well as a world of hate from The surrounding Arabic states. Rhetoric about Israel and the fact that it being a democracy in the middle-east overshadows any critiscm is so prevalent these days I cant even be bothered to go into detail about it.

And on a side note. Does Europe actually WANT to be friends with you? I think France and Germany speak for pretty much all of us when talking about your foreign policy over the past 40 years.
The UN isn't a friend to America either. America spends BILLIONS of dollars funding the UN to say how "Evil" America is. Israel supports us in return for our WELL spent money. England, Italy, Hungary, Denmark, and Poland are great friends with us. Just because France and Germany say they don't like what we do is not the whole of Europe.

I purposely chose a ridiculous situation because I knew you'd have to back away from your blanket claim that the only possible justification for a war is a UN resolution. If you have to make ONE exception, your premise is shot.

As far as why we should have lax gun laws, that's easy. The Second Amendment. :)

What!? If We had to make one exception? But states having thier own inalianble right to delcare War without premise from the International Community could be turned into extreme hypothetical situations as well, as most other solutions to the problem of US Imperialism are.

The main excuse for military intervention in the 80's and furthered in the 90's was the ever popular trend of 'humanitarian intervention', this is an example of what happens when there are no guidelines and repurcussions from the International Community because of the UN's helplessness to punish nations who disobey International Law.

Actually, many of my friends go to college all over Europe.

It's not so much that europeans hate americans. FOr the most part, they'll give you chance to prove your idiocy or not.


Our PRESIDENT, on the other hand...:p



Oh, and shame on you for thinking that we can BUY th UN.

Israel is not your 'friend' it costs you billions of dollars a year as well as a world of hate from The surrounding Arabic states. Rhetoric about Israel and the fact that it being a democracy in the middle-east overshadows any critiscm is so prevalent these days I cant even be bothered to go into detail about it.

And on a side note. Does Europe actually WANT to be friends with you? I think France and Germany speak for pretty much all of us when talking about your foreign policy over the past 40 years.
Oh yea one other thing why do you think Democracy in a region torn with internal strife and ruthless dictatorships and Religiously intolorant governments is a terrible and evil thing?

...Hoooooooooo boy. Are you one of those odd fellows that believes we can FORCE democracy on others?

The UN isn't a friend to America either. America spends BILLIONS of dollars funding the UN to say how "Evil" America is. Israel supports us in return for our WELL spent money. England, Italy, Hungary, Denmark, and Poland are great friends with us. Just because France and Germany say they don't like what we do is not the whole of Europe.

Most Italians were, and are now against the War, as were most Polish by a huge majority, as were The Nordic States. I remember a programme on the BBC called "What the World thinks of America", and an Independant Survey they carried out among people from different countries. This showed quite clearly from the European states surveyed (I think there were 17) most thought 'America was the biggest threat to World Peace', saying Hungary and Italy are your friends is like saying Saudi Arabia is your 'friend' because they say everything you want to hear even though the people despise you.

Actually, many of my friends go to college all over Europe.

It's not so much that europeans hate americans. FOr the most part, they'll give you chance to prove your idiocy or not.


Our PRESIDENT, on the other hand...:p



Oh, and shame on you for thinking that we can BUY th UN.
Have you been looking in on the UN Food for Oil Scandal?

Oh yea one other thing why do you think Democracy in a region torn with internal strife and ruthless dictatorships and Religiously intolorant governments is a terrible and evil thing?

Erm that wasn't the point. The point I had pointed out my little brained friend, was that America uses rhetoric about Israel being a democracy in the middle east to deflect critiscm of the double standards.

No I haven't.

Do explain

...Hoooooooooo boy. Are you one of those odd fellows that believes we can FORCE democracy on others?

Hehe, the exportation of the American brand of Democracy basically equates to - "We'll build a McDonald's in Baghdad if you let us control your Government and comprise it of ex-CIA operatives." (All the while ignoring the real Iraqi Opposition movement based in Jordan).

Most Italians were, and are now against the War, as were most Polish by a huge majority, as were The Nordic States. I remember a programme on the BBC called "What the World thinks of America", and an Independant Survey they carried out among people from different countries. This showed quite clearly from the European states surveyed (I think there were 17) most thought 'America was the biggest threat to World Peace', saying Hungary and Italy are your friends is like saying Saudi Arabia is your 'friend' because they say everything you want to hear even though the people despise you.
There is a simple answer to why Europe hates America. Europe is jealous and ashamed that their economies depend on America. If America were to vanish overnight ALL of Europe would be crippled economically and it would take alot of time and effort to restore what once was.

There is a simple answer to why Europe hates America. Europe is jealous and ashamed that their economies depend on America. If America were to vanish overnight ALL of Europe would be crippled economically and it would take alot of time and effort to restore what once was.

FOX News:
We Report.... What you want to hear.


I can safely say no one I have met is jealous of the fact you have 30 million people living below the poverty line.

There is a simple answer to why Europe hates America. Europe is jealous and ashamed that their economies depend on America. If America were to vanish overnight ALL of Europe would be crippled economically and it would take alot of time and effort to restore what once was.

Err, that would be true of ANY nation/region if another disappeared. The US would be devastated economically if Europe suddenly dropped into some alternate dimension.

No I haven't.

Do explain
Apparently Before the Iraq war started...Saddam Hussain bought off the UN food for oil program by not paying the UN for its food. He kept the oil and sold it illigally and never gave it to the UN. And The UN OVERLOOKED what Saddam did. but because the UN is supposed to be "Sooo great and noble..."
the international communty doesn't give a damn to it (they look the other way...a double standard, no)

Err, that would be true of ANY nation/region if another disappeared. The US would be devastated economically if Europe suddenly dropped into some alternate dimension.
yes but my point is that who would be devastated MORE?

the international communty doesn't give a damn to it (they look the other way...a double standard, no)

Well you answered your own question, "a double standard, no", its not a double standard as there aren't other cases which you can draw parralels to.

yes but my point is that who would be devastated MORE?

God, I hate debating with people who assume really bizarre theoretical situations to back up thier argument. They don't have facts, they have FOX and a bit of rhetoric.

yes but my point is that who would be devastated MORE?

SInce it'll never happen, it doesn't matter.

Well you answered your own question, "a double standard, no", its not a double standard as there aren't other cases which you can draw parralels to.
USA's claims of WMD's in Iraq. The WHOLE international community before the war said that Iraq had WMDs. They KNEW he had WMDs. They sent weapons inspectors there for God's sake. Normally that would mean that Saddam had weapons but when Bush says he has weapons, the response from the International Community is OH NO HE DIDN'T. Double standard.

Did you know that a study showed half of the US population could benefit from personal bankruptcy? Thats right, the US is fueled by credit yet people still spend too much... well its no wonder because the federal goverment isnt actually setting a good example to its citizens as the US has one of the largest national debts of the world. Owed to China, Japan, its own citizens, and various other institutions.

Perhaps it will all turn out great and the debt will be paid in full during the next few decades, maybe not and the economy will implode... things dont look too good though.

Bush has set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest him in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

He is the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security. He is supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.



Nazi Weaponized Virus, I agree with you. Simply put, everyone hates him, and Bush put on an image of America, therfor, making America the most hated country.

God, I hate debating with people who assume really bizarre theoretical situations to back up thier argument. They don't have facts, they have FOX and a bit of rhetoric.
You must really enjoy the BBC

God, I hate debating with people who assume really bizarre theoretical situations to back up thier argument. They don't have facts, they have FOX and a bit of rhetoric.

I prefer coyotes. They're easier to hit. :sniper:

Bush has set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest him in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

He is the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security. He is supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.



Nazi Weaponized Virus, I agree with you. Simply put, everyone hates him, and Bush put on an image of America, therfor, making America the most hated country.

Very true, though I believe Kerry can reestablish some of the lost credibility. He seems like an extremely intelligent man with some good old socialist thinking to back it up.

You must really enjoy the BBC

You know what? I do!

And you know why? Because its held accountable to the Public of the nation not Extremely rich shareholders with a vested interest in keeping right wing Government's in power.

Very true, though I believe Kerry can reestablish some of the lost credibility. He seems like an extremely intelligent man with some good old socialist thinking to back it up.

I agree, Kerry is a very intelligent man, I really like him. I just hope that he is elected. I just cant imagine what Bush will get us into if he is elected for another 4 years.

USA's claims of WMD's in Iraq. The WHOLE international community before the war said that Iraq had WMDs. They KNEW he had WMDs. They sent weapons inspectors there for God's sake. Normally that would mean that Saddam had weapons but when Bush says he has weapons, the response from the International Community is OH NO HE DIDN'T. Double standard.


Are you seriously that dumb?

There are no WMD

DEAL WITH IT

I agree, Kerry is a very intelligent man, I really like him. I just hope that he is elected. I just cant imagine what Bush will get us into if he is elected for another 4 years.

Run America into the biggest National Debt ever seen on the planet.

And we should care what the world thinks of our President...why? He's the President of AMERICA, not the world, and the world's opinion of my President means as much to me as a bucket of warm spit.

Do you think the French care of my opinion of Chirac? I doubt it, and rightly so since he is THEIR President and the opinions of another nation's citizens shouldn't count for squat when it comes to your own leaders.

And we should care what the world thinks of our President...why? He's the President of AMERICA, not the world, and the world's opinion of my President means as much to me as a bucket of warm spit.

Do you think the French care of my opinion of Chirac? I doubt it, and rightly so since he is THEIR President and the opinions of another nation's citizens shouldn't count for squat when it comes to your own leaders.

It's funny how you use possesive nouns when describing your president, despite the despicable effect he has on not just America, but the World.
Plus I would really want to dissasociate myself from a man like Bush if I was American.

The best way to understand you're standings is to ask your peers.

It is going to get worst and possibly even negative growth if the tariffs get passed.


What tariffs are these? France is part of the EU, and trade barriers are set at a european level. France cannot impose tariffs. So are you just making it up? Why would you do that?

It is going to get worst and possibly even negative growth if the tariffs get passed.


What tariffs are these? France is part of the EU, and trade barriers are set at a european level. France cannot impose tariffs. So are you just making it up? Why would you do that?

Don't worry, he just bullshits for living now. He knows absolutely nothing about everything concerning politics, hence he is right wing.

Run America into the biggest National Debt ever seen on the planet.

lol, and most likley invade Iran. Then invade N.Korea, then N.Korea will sell their nukes to some Arab nation. Then WWIII.

True, but there is a way to step back from the brink. This way is called John Kerry.

True, but there is a way to step back from the brink. This way is called John Kerry.

That's why I plan on getting a nice sized apartment in Toronto, Canada if Bush is elected. I personally dont feel like getting drafted into a war just to make him and his buds rich.

Socialist France

Now where did that come from?

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Bloody hell, you're worse than the Nazi twat. Frankly, I find that comment overtly offensive - not because I'm French. In fact, I'm probably racist against the French, but it's better than being a silly misguided fool.


Who has the better economy? Seeing as the US has at least the 2nd strongest economy in the World (always has been 1st until recently) and France I'm not sure even scrapes into G-5 anymore, I'd be fairly comfortable betting my house on the USA.

That's why I plan on getting a nice sized apartment in Toronto, Canada if Bush is elected. I personally dont feel like getting drafted into a war just to make him and his buds rich.

Understandable, fighting for freedom in WW2 in one thing, but fighting for Halliburton in WW3 is another.

That's why I plan on getting a nice sized apartment in Toronto, Canada if Bush is elected. I personally dont feel like getting drafted into a war just to make him and his buds rich.

Heh, I'm already ahead of you.

I'm half Canadian ;)

In fact, I'm probably racist against the French,


That says it all doesn't it?

Bloody hell, you're worse than the Nazi twat.


Nazi twat, acctually, viewing his posts, he seems more socialist to me. I think it is just his name of his NS nation that fooled you. I myself am socialist, yet I have a complete opposite NS nation to a socialist nation. A game, and real life, are two way different things.

Heh, I'm already ahead of you.

I'm half Canadian ;)

*gives thumbs up

Nazi twat, acctually, viewing his posts, he seems more socialist to me. I think it is just his name of his NS nation that fooled you. I myself am socialist, yet I have a complete opposite NS nation to a socialist nation. A game, and real life, are two way different things.

Quite true actually, I just find it humurous to RP as a nazi nation on NS, in Real Life however, I despise any group that believes in policies of exportation of thier brand of 'democracy' and allegiance to racist ideals. I'll say it straight, I dont like political correctness, but if we have to take draconian measures to stamp out the racist arseholes of this world Mr. Bush the 'Christian' fundamentalist inparticular, then so be it.

I guess me being a History major doesn't count for much? We didn't need France, all they did was shorten our victory.

If this is your version of history, then no, quite frankly it doesn't.

The United States Army used by and large, French made Charleville muskets (As opposed to the Brown Bess used by the British). Now, the colonies of 1776 were far and away from the industrialized superpower that exists today, they lacked any real arms factories, so where do you think these weapons were coming from (Hint: look who makes it!). But muskets alone are no good, they also require powder, and besides previous stores, some powder bought abroad, and some taken from the British, guess where the US got it's powder from (over 80%, and that's a conservative estimate), yep, you guessed it, the Kingdom of France. France also supplied numerous other necessities in the way of supplies to keep the US armies in the field, and that is not even getting into their part in the war.

There is no denying France's part in the final battle of the Revolution, without Degrasse's fleet to block the Chesepeake By from the British, the Yorktown fort would have been abandoned by the British, who had shown mastery of amphibious operations (for that time) in their actions against New York in the opening stages of the war, and their knack for transporting troops. Nearly half of the force besieging Yorktown was indeed French troops, as were the majority of the cannon that were busy pummeling the fort. French forces in the West Indies also kept a large number of British troops and ships away from engaging the rebels in North America.

Imagine if that force in Yorktown had escaped, and reappeared back in the Carolinas, this would leave the US in a very very bad situation. Washington left only a skeleton force to cover the huge British force that was garrisoning New York and Newport, and his main force would be north of several major rivers which were devoid of transportation (Greene's troops had destroyed the boats after using them, to prevent a speedy British pursuit). The US would be facing two large enemy armies, and their main force concentrated in between these two, weeks away from being able to defend any colonies North or South.

Quite true actually, I just find it humurous to RP as a nazi nation on NS, in Real Life however, I despise any group that believes in policies of exportation of thier brand of 'democracy' and allegiance to racist ideals. I'll say it straight, I dont like political correctness, but if we have to take draconian measures to stamp out the racist arseholes of this world Mr. Bush the 'Christian' fundamentalist inparticular, then so be it.

Nazi nations are quite fun to RP. It's fun to play a game as an imperialistic evil nation. Much like choosing the "bad guy" on a video game. Although when it gets to real life I dispise facists. I know that a military takeover is completely retarded. So yes, I follow the non-violence resistance taught by Muhatma Gahndi and Jesus. I find war in real life very unethical and corrupt, but I only would back it up when necessary. Which is very rare. To fight against the nazis in WWII was necessary though, we fought for freedoms and an end to spred of a hateful group of facists.

To fight against the nazis in WWII was necessary though, we fought for freedoms and an end to spred of a hateful group of facists.

Very, very true. Compare the needless loss of life in the 1st WW and the current Gulf War to the neccessity that was WW2 (although bombing of civilian targets was despicable) and you see the difference between justification of War and War on a flase pretext.

All I know is that US obviously has a better economy then the French.

Also just remember who Osama Bin Laden would vote for in this upcoming election. *hint* *hint* John Kerry *cough*

Bush might be too democratic in some areas but he knows that keeping the fight at the enemy is a lot better then them running more airplanes into national monuments.

All I know is that US obviously has a better economy then the French.

Also just remember who Osama Bin Laden would vote for in this upcoming election. *hint* *hint* John Kerry *cough*

Bush might be too democratic in some areas but he knows that keeping the fight at the enemy is a lot better then them running more airplanes into national monuments.

And just tell me Hylind, invading and fighting Saddam is fighting the Al Qeuda how? And dont give me that "They had ties" Bull shit. Because the Bush familey had more ties with the Bin Laden family than Saddam ever did.

Also just remember who Osama Bin Laden would vote for in this upcoming election. *hint* *hint* John Kerry *cough*

Actually, Several of the major islamic fundamentalist groups have issued statements of support for bush's reelection campaign. They see his own "God is on our side" stance as good to enrage muslims and win support for themselves. I don't have a link, but try searching for it, it was on BBC i read it, i'm pretty sure.

Also just remember who Osama Bin Laden would vote for in this upcoming election. *hint* *hint* John Kerry *cough*

And I suppose you picked up this tidbit of information from your personal conversations with him on the telephone? In that case please do ask him where he is next time, that would do wonders.

Seriously, how would you know who Osama would vote for if he was a US citizen. When has Kerry ever showed himself to be more lenient to terrorism than Bush, all he's done is say he will get rid of the "my way or the highway" policy of the current President which is alienating the US from it's allies, and this not being a conventional war won through brute strength, more relying on intelligence and planning to defeat the enemy, allies are integral to success. I'm not saying Osama wouldn't vote for Kerry, maybe he's concerned about our deficit too, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't vote for Bush.

Bush might be too democratic in some areas

I'm somewhat baffled by this, too democratic? Could you please elaborate, I can't think of many times you can accuse Bush of being too democratic. (actually, if you could care to do so in another thread, since this is somewhat off-topic, that would be appreciated).

Same with growth rate. The French have Socialism because the idiots voted for it.
Maybe you know that the current president of France is Jacques Chirac. His government is not socialist. Unfortunately.

Unfortunately for America, Europe is moving more and more towards a European Defence Force rather than NATO.

Explain that to the Eastern Europeans who keep joining NATO. France pulled out of the NATO command structure decades ago. You don't speak for all Europeans, your not a cultural monolith and you never will be.

PS I'm Polish and most Poles find French arrogance highly annoying. Chirac's overbearing attitude towards the "young" europeans annoys many in the East. I believe a Czech diplomat said it bst about France: No more security guarantees from France.

Israel is not your 'friend' it costs you billions of dollars a year as well as a world of hate from The surrounding Arabic states. Rhetoric about Israel and the fact that it being a democracy in the middle-east overshadows any critiscm is so prevalent these days I cant even be bothered to go into detail about it.

And on a side note. Does Europe actually WANT to be friends with you? I think France and Germany speak for pretty much all of us when talking about your foreign policy over the past 40 years.

Israel is America's friend because it has time after time throught thick and thin stood with America. Isn't a good friend supposed to stick it out with you no matter what? Your also not supposed to ditch good friends just because it would make you more popular

France and Germany don't speak for Europe. Their governments would like to think so, but they don't. Most Europeans don't subscribe to the rabid anti-American nonsense coming out of Paris and Berlin these days. Hell, even Schroeder has been more conciliatory of late. Only Chirac and Villepin (following a long standing tradition of opposing America no matter what) steadfastly refuse to mend the ties.

Most Italians were, and are now against the War, as were most Polish by a huge majority, as were The Nordic States. I remember a programme on the BBC called "What the World thinks of America", and an Independant Survey they carried out among people from different countries. This showed quite clearly from the European states surveyed (I think there were 17) most thought 'America was the biggest threat to World Peace', saying Hungary and Italy are your friends is like saying Saudi Arabia is your 'friend' because they say everything you want to hear even though the people despise you.

If you would actually read a Polish magazine or maybe travel to Warsaw you'd realize that most Poles like America, genuinely like America. Their opposed to their troops being in Iraq, not to the war.

Very true, though I believe Kerry can reestablish some of the lost credibility. He seems like an extremely intelligent man with some good old socialist thinking to back it up.

Two strikes against him in this election already.

How did an opportunity to bash France's failed economics turn into another "Europe > America"? Why are Western Europeans surprised when other nations around the world throw the word arrogant around when speaking about them?


The U.S. has consistently posted better economic growth figures then the European Union. Avergae Euro zone growth? About 2%. Average american growth? Just below 4%. In terms of real GDP growth, France and Germany consistently lag behind America by 1500 points according to numbers from The Economist. France has a 35 hour work week (with no reduction in pay from the 39-hour work week under Jospin), if anyone believes you can compete with an American work week that is about 45-55 hours then your mistaken.

French GDP growth 1.7%; American GDP growth 3.4%.
French total GDP: 1,911 billion; American total GDP: 11, 278 billion.
French Inflation: 1.5%; American inflation: 1.3%.
French GDP per head: 31, 640$; American GDP per head: 38, 620$.

Yes the U.S. has a deficit, and yes they have a huge national debt, but they can still pay it off. France has a massive national debt and a deficit at a little above 3% of GDP. Unemployment in France swings around 10% and it is chronic since Mitterand. America has unemployment at around 5.5%. The cause for all of this WAS the social reforms undertaken by Mitterand which created an illiquid labour market. Hence the 1945-75 period that saw stable growth were followed by a quarter century of high unemployment and overall troubled economic landscape. France still owns controlling shares by some estimates in as many as 1500 companies. The French government spends 53% of its GDP into the economy compared with 38% for the OECD in general. The expensive public pension plan is also sucking the life out of the French economy which kicks in at 55. Thus these people are the baby boomers post WW2, very numerous and getting into retirement currently. America does not have this problem as public pensions are few and far between, while most people have private pension plans.

Public debt in France accounts for 69.1 % of GDP. American public debt is 62.4% of GDP. The foreign exchange reserve is at 30, 187 M.US. in France while in America 74,894 M.US. The only figure that looks good is the French account balance which stands at 1.5 while America has a deficit of 4.9. The French government also consumes more of the GDP, 24,28% of the GDP while the American government consumes 18,72% of GDP. Even the budget balance is worth off in France then in the U.S. with -4.10 (France) and -3.46 (America).

All of this information is gleamed from OECD figures and The Economist's articles online along with their country by country overview.

Nazi Weaponized Virus you know NOTHING about economic figures, absolutely zero. Drop the anti-american crap and maybe look at the figures before posting some crap. All of the economic figures are in America's favour and not France's.

If you want to discuss who has the more socialist economy, fine, France wins. More efficient and successfull then its America. As for Bush being a dictator or whatever, France has a longer history with dictators and pseudo-tyrants such as DeGaulle coming to power in 1958 and Mitterand's 17 years in power and overall the fact that the presidents lords over the legislature in France.

Are you kidding? So if those bloodthirsty Canadians were massing at our border and preparing to invade in 24 hours, you actually think the US should be required to go to the UN before striking the Canadians? Get real.

(My sincerest apologies to any Canadians reading that. A strictly hypothetical situation obviously and I had to pick between Canada or Mexico considering I was talking about massing at borders.)

How did you find out about out master plan?!;)

Don't worry Leynier...our Master Igloo Assassins will deal with you! Mouhahahaha

(Yes I live in Canada and yes we're planning to invade Vermont...you can't stop us...)

as a country i prefer france, more intelligent (sorry u.s. people)
as an economy the u.s.(sorry france people)

as the totally best smartest country in the world is....................................



AUSTRALIA

Amid all the shouts about the 'superiority' of the USA's economy over'socialist' France's, (Does anybody actually know what socialism is - it's not just left of the Nazis) consider 2 facts. About a third of the population of the US have no health cover. Everyone in France does. And the US has infant mortality rates worse than most third world countries. Unlike France.

When I saw the title my first thought was: Governor Arnold VS. former Governor Ventura, who's stronger?

Hehe, even though the EU has a better economy than the US?

Get your facts straight Mr. IloveBushsoIcantseethefactsanddodoubleposts

Granted you have a better military. But thats it - and lets face it, you NEED a good military as nobody in the World likes you.

-The EU has a better Economy.
-The EU has a better Environment and more regulation on Business.
-The EU has better Healthcare.
-The EU has a better Education System.
-The EU has more social security, amd services for ALL its people, disregardless of wealth.
-The EU has less Poverty.
-Europe has History and Culture.
-Europe doesn't have a monopoly of corporate media.

You are one of those people who I would love to see become poor, and see what its like for people living in Inner City areas and in slums that equate to a 3rd World Country (still think its better eh?).

Go and listen to Rush Limbaugh, I'm sure his ugly fat face will console your racist views.
You talk about the EU as if it's one country. It's not.

-"The EU has a better Economy." Well GDP growth is generally less, but European workers get better holidays. Germany's unemployment is around 11% (worse than America's), mainly due to the poor east, which you may remember was liberated from communism 15 years ago. My country's unemplyment rate is at 4% (better than America). There are differences.

-"The EU has a better Environment and more regulation on Business." You're pretty much right there.

-"The EU has better Healthcare." France for example has a brilliant healthcare system, while my country, Ireland's, is inefficient, unfair shit.

-"The EU has a better Education System." Yes, particularly for languages. But once again there is no such thing as "the EU Education System", or "the American Education System", for that matter.

-"The EU has more social security, amd services for ALL its people, disregardless of wealth." True. It's traditional here for the state to provide services. The Scandinavian countries are particularly good at this.

-"The EU has less Poverty." Certainly for Scandinavia, elsewhere i'm not sure.

-"Europe has History and Culture." Irrelevant - blatant anti-Americanism.

-"Europe doesn't have a monopoly of corporate media." With the exception of Britatin, that's mostly true. However, since large sections of the media in European countries are government-owned, I don't think you could say that political bias is non-existent here either.
I hate the machinations of Rupert Murdoch, who uses FOX in the US, Sky and the Sun in the UK to peddle his own right-wing politics. He has too much influence. That is a good point.

Also, please reassess you anti-American views. Not everyone hates the US.

How is the EU economy better? Why is it that the only good economy in Europe is Britain? and they aren't in the EU. The EU has high unemployment. Germany is even worse off than France right now.
Please learn something about the EU. Britain has been in the EU since 1973; you should know that basic fact before discussing this topic.

Their economy is not the best in Europe, my country's may be, though I'm not certain. I know it's better than Britain's anyway.

Also, please reassess you anti-European, French-hating views.

------------------------------------------------------

This thread just reinforces my belief that Europeans and Americans really know very little about each other.

Amid all the shouts about the 'superiority' of the USA's economy over'socialist' France's, (Does anybody actually know what socialism is - it's not just left of the Nazis) consider 2 facts. About a third of the population of the US have no health cover. Everyone in France does. And the US has infant mortality rates worse than most third world countries. Unlike France.

France has a more socialist economy, they consider themselves socialists and the impact of Mitterand's presidency is seen throughout the economy. Health coverage is a mute point, it has little to do with the economy and performance.

China, India and South Korea have higher mortality rates then America, but I doubt anyone would argue that their economies are worst off because of it. The U.S. mortality rate per 1,000 born is less then 20 like France's. The poorest continent, Africa, has an average of 150 per 1000 born. My data is from the American Public Health Association:The Nation's Health, Dec 2000-Jan 2001 issue. Washington publication. Where did you get your data from Frosterley?

and you guys wonder why there's no such thing as world peace. how can there be peace when we cause the friction? why can't Europe accept that America is more conservative and America accept that Europe is more liberal? :rolleyes:

The U.S has always been the better of the two countries. What Nazi weaponized virus doesn't realize is that the US can't have mandatory healthcare and pension because it would destroy our economy. The latest data shows that the US has a population of 293,027,571 while France has a population of only 60,424,213. Socialism is a sad way to run a government because everything is not really for the good of the people. The only reason the US is in debt is because the airline industry bankruptcy hurt the US economy, and we had to bail them out.

Unfortunately for America, Europe is moving more and more towards a European Defence Force rather than NATO.
And thats a good thing. NATO should be dissolved.

Well - if "better economy" is defined only in a certain subset of measured indices - then the US probably kicks France's ass. As if total GDP really matters to the average working (wo)man.... who frankly is far more interested in HIS/HER income.

But to play along - all numbers cited from the CIA world factbook:

Well, lets look at some standard measures:

GDP per capita:
France $27,500
US: $37,800

OK - GDP/population is in favour of the US. But then,

Percent of population below poverty line:
France: 6.5%
US: 12%

So the total GDP divided by the population works out to a nicer number in the US, however clearly there is a poorer distribution. That is confirmed by:

Distribution of income (Gini index)
France: 32.7
US: 40.8

and

Household income or consumption by percentage share - highest 10%:
(i,e - the richest 10% of the country got how much of the total GDP?)
France: 25.1%
US: 30.5%


So there is more money overall in the US, but the rich get a bigger chunk of the pie.


Unemployment:
France: 9.6%
US: 6.2%

Hmmm, you would think more unemployed would equate to more poverty - but clearly taht wasn't the case. I note however that calculations for unemployment differ from country to country - so there may be some skewing here.

how are the country's competing in the markets?

Trade balance:
France: 6B Surplus
US: 500B+ debt

Chalk one up for France there too.

And how do poeple enjoy their lives in both countries?

For people:
Infant mortality rate
France: 4.31 / 1000
US: 6.63 / 1000


Life Expectancy:
France: 79.44 years
US: 77.43 years

Literacy:
France 99%
US 97%

Not to mention that the French retire earlier, and like most europeans get far more time off per year in paid vacation.

You know something - I'd trade more time off and early retirement for a slightly lower average income too. The most valuable thing you have in life is your life, and the time to enjoy it.

But for those Europeans who threw out the "no history and no culture" crap - don;t forget for one instant that the cultural history of North America INCLUDES the cultural history of the places they came from - including Europe. The bulk of North American's did NOT spontaeously apear from nowhere. You may disavow us as your cousins, and some north americans may disavow you as their ancestral cultural origins - but that doesn't make it any less true.

It is why Quebec And Louisiana still have elements of French Common Law in their makeups while the rest use variations of the British system after all.


So - who's economy is better? Depends on your measure.

And do the big numbers really matter to the average working family in either country?

No - probably not.

The U.S has always been the better of the two countries. What Nazi weaponized virus doesn't realize is that the US can't have mandatory healthcare and pension because it would destroy our economy. The latest data shows that the US has a population of 293,027,571 while France has a population of only 60,424,213. Socialism is a sad way to run a government because everything is not really for the good of the people. The only reason the US is in debt is because the airline industry bankruptcy hurt the US economy, and we had to bail them out.


What the hell does population have to do with providing health care? The cost are per capita and would come out of per-capita contributions to public coffers - which the US GDP per capita seems to indicate could be far easier afforded in the US. Plus using basic economic theory - if anything, the US could generate far greater saving through economies of scale.


And if you think that the only reason the US is in debt is the airlines..... then that alone gives reason to discount your views on this subject as you are clearly ill-informed.

If this is your version of history, then no, quite frankly it doesn't.

The United States Army used by and large, French made Charleville muskets (As opposed to the Brown Bess used by the British). Now, the colonies of 1776 were far and away from the industrialized superpower that exists today, they lacked any real arms factories, so where do you think these weapons were coming from (Hint: look who makes it!). But muskets alone are no good, they also require powder, and besides previous stores, some powder bought abroad, and some taken from the British, guess where the US got it's powder from (over 80%, and that's a conservative estimate), yep, you guessed it, the Kingdom of France. France also supplied numerous other necessities in the way of supplies to keep the US armies in the field, and that is not even getting into their part in the war.

There is no denying France's part in the final battle of the Revolution, without Degrasse's fleet to block the Chesepeake By from the British, the Yorktown fort would have been abandoned by the British, who had shown mastery of amphibious operations (for that time) in their actions against New York in the opening stages of the war, and their knack for transporting troops. Nearly half of the force besieging Yorktown was indeed French troops, as were the majority of the cannon that were busy pummeling the fort. French forces in the West Indies also kept a large number of British troops and ships away from engaging the rebels in North America.

Imagine if that force in Yorktown had escaped, and reappeared back in the Carolinas, this would leave the US in a very very bad situation. Washington left only a skeleton force to cover the huge British force that was garrisoning New York and Newport, and his main force would be north of several major rivers which were devoid of transportation (Greene's troops had destroyed the boats after using them, to prevent a speedy British pursuit). The US would be facing two large enemy armies, and their main force concentrated in between these two, weeks away from being able to defend any colonies North or South.
There where also several French and German officers training the Americans.

What the hell does population have to do with providing health care? The cost are per capita and would come out of per-capita contributions to public coffers - which the US GDP per capita seems to indicate could be far easier afforded in the US. Plus using basic economic theory - if anything, the US could generate far greater saving through economies of scale.


And if you think that the only reason the US is in debt is the airlines..... then that alone gives reason to discount your views on this subject as you are clearly ill-informed.
Population is a Very important factor for a national healthcare system. Population determines how many doctors and medical supplies you would need to fully aid the population. but population alone is not the only real factor for National Health Care

How, per se, can someone be racist to a Frenchmen simply because of that fact that he's a Frenchmen? Unless the man is a, say, French black man, one can not be racist to him. Because no one can be racist to a nationality....

Secondly, I'm glad you're happy that you're socialist. Be happy with your misery. We're happy with our superior military and better economy....

Me!

Hmm.. which country was the riches in the world again, with a vast ammount of money owed by other countries? Oh yeah, the worlds best country to live in (according to the UN), Norway, the most Socialist state in the world! We don't have your poverty levels, we have better education levels, people owe us money, we give out more aid per person, etc, and were a Semi-Socialist state!

When talking about nation's poverty lines and how America has over 12%, realize that America has some of the "richest" poor in the world. The average poverty stricken household has at least 2 televisions sets. How many other nations' poor could make that claim?

I need to see what everybody thinks... Why is America viewed as evil? I really don't understand this.

yeah your basic theory of economy would work, BUT how many people in your country collect welfare? People here are not honest. When I go to the store I always see people with the food stamp cards who end up buying steak and all the other name brand items. Then they leave in their new cadillac escalade with the newest nikes on. I'll admit that the French probably have more pride in work then some people here. I know this one black guy that claims he has 11 children on his taxes and he isn't even married!!! :mad:

Now that i think about the airlines may not be our only problem. :headbang:

I need to see what everybody thinks... Why is America viewed as evil? I really don't understand this.

the torture ,the anal rape, the cluster bombing, the arm twisting of small nations to follow it commands. the endless lies, the secret detentions, the wanton murder of civilians... ect.. ect... ect....

There was damge to the continental USA durning WW2, just not alot. Japan mad bombs out of ballons and sent them into the jet stream, Sent them right into our country, only killed about 12 and most failed, but it did happen, Thousands have been found.

Japan made 2000 of the weapons you are refering to and all but one fell into the Pacific ocean. The ONE bomb that hit the US did so in Washington state. In the middle of nowhere.

Japan DID manage to attack the continental US with subs that attacked the west coast oil/fuel distribution points.

Germany also managed to attack the US on the East coast. German U-boats prowled the coast sinking shipping and firing upon port cities that had no blackout. If the US had not gotten lucky and sunk one of those U-boats most of New York city would have been in flaming ruins. It seems that the U-boat in question was equipped with Incendary rockets with orders to fire upon New York. If those rockets had hit MOST of New York would have been ashes.

the torture ,the anal rape, the cluster bombing, the arm twisting of small nations to follow it commands. the endless lies, the secret detentions, the wanton murder of civilians... ect.. ect... ect....
Why do you allow the actions of a few very bad people shape your view of America?

Well - if "better economy" is defined only in a certain subset of measured indices - then the US probably kicks France's ass. As if total GDP really matters to the average working (wo)man.... who frankly is far more interested in HIS/HER income.

But to play along - all numbers cited from the CIA world factbook:

Well, lets look at some standard measures:

GDP per capita:
France $27,500
US: $37,800

OK - GDP/population is in favour of the US. But then,

Percent of population below poverty line:
France: 6.5%
US: 12%

So the total GDP divided by the population works out to a nicer number in the US, however clearly there is a poorer distribution. That is confirmed by:

Distribution of income (Gini index)
France: 32.7
US: 40.8

and

Household income or consumption by percentage share - highest 10%:
(i,e - the richest 10% of the country got how much of the total GDP?)
France: 25.1%
US: 30.5%


So there is more money overall in the US, but the rich get a bigger chunk of the pie.


Unemployment:
France: 9.6%
US: 6.2%

Hmmm, you would think more unemployed would equate to more poverty - but clearly taht wasn't the case. I note however that calculations for unemployment differ from country to country - so there may be some skewing here.

how are the country's competing in the markets?

Trade balance:
France: 6B Surplus
US: 500B+ debt

Chalk one up for France there too.

And how do poeple enjoy their lives in both countries?

For people:
Infant mortality rate
France: 4.31 / 1000
US: 6.63 / 1000


Life Expectancy:
France: 79.44 years
US: 77.43 years

Literacy:
France 99%
US 97%

Not to mention that the French retire earlier, and like most europeans get far more time off per year in paid vacation.

You know something - I'd trade more time off and early retirement for a slightly lower average income too. The most valuable thing you have in life is your life, and the time to enjoy it.

But for those Europeans who threw out the "no history and no culture" crap - don;t forget for one instant that the cultural history of North America INCLUDES the cultural history of the places they came from - including Europe. The bulk of North American's did NOT spontaeously apear from nowhere. You may disavow us as your cousins, and some north americans may disavow you as their ancestral cultural origins - but that doesn't make it any less true.

It is why Quebec And Louisiana still have elements of French Common Law in their makeups while the rest use variations of the British system after all.


So - who's economy is better? Depends on your measure.

And do the big numbers really matter to the average working family in either country?

No - probably not.

The happiness of the population has little to do with economic success. Your preference for more leisure and taxation for services is irrelevant. The only judge is economic figures since were looking at the better economy and not the best place to live.

The more successfull economy is America's using the median and overview numbers. Single individual success is not indicative of a well functioning economy and although people may not care what the GDP growth was in the last fiscal quarter, positive numbers are always a good thing. Unemployment had diminished in the U.S. (CIA numbers are a bit old) while it has remained high in France. Again, France has been suffering from chronic infrastructural unemployment since the 1980's. The 35 hour work week was meant to force companies to employ more people to fill the gap, in order to avoid the exorbitant OT pay. The average person may not care about the median income, but it determines the economic success of a system.

On the economy America wins.
On a nicer place to live, debatable, some people prefer different climates and different surroundings.

Socialism is a sad way to run a government because everything is not really for the good of the people.
The people of the Scandinavian countries would surely disagree. They have freely elected almost entirely socialist governments for the past 60 years.

Why do you allow the actions of a few very bad people shape your view of America?

because they are in control of the government

The happiness of the population has little to do with economic success. Your preference for more leisure and taxation for services is irrelevant. The only judge is economic figures since were looking at the better economy and not the best place to live.

The more successfull economy is America's using the median and overview numbers. Single individual success is not indicative of a well functioning economy and although people may not care what the GDP growth was in the last fiscal quarter, positive numbers are always a good thing. Unemployment had diminished in the U.S. (CIA numbers are a bit old) while it has remained high in France. Again, France has been suffering from chronic infrastructural unemployment since the 1980's. The 35 hour work week was meant to force companies to employ more people to fill the gap, in order to avoid the exorbitant OT pay. The average person may not care about the median income, but it determines the economic success of a system.

On the economy America wins.
On a nicer place to live, debatable, some people prefer different climates and different surroundings.

Well, as I alluded to and as you comment that happiness of the population has little to do with economic success - what is the point of the thread?

The US has a better per-capita GDP than France. Unless that translates into something meaningful then who really cares. At that point we are just stating a fact without putting any context around it.

It's like stating "California has a bigger population than Vermont"

Yeah?

So what?

A debate on firm numbers without context is just a recitation of statistics and is rather pointless don't you think?

Yeah they're living the good life for now, but what's going to happen when the oil and natural gas starts to run out in the next two decades in Norway?

Population is a Very important factor for a national healthcare system. Population determines how many doctors and medical supplies you would need to fully aid the population. but population alone is not the only real factor for National Health Care

Yes - if you are setting up a health care system in a third world country from scratch, however the US already has a health care system - just not a public one so this is rather irrelevant.

Well, as I alluded to and as you comment that happiness of the population has little to do with economic success - what is the point of the thread?

The US has a better per-capita GDP than France. Unless that translates into something meaningful then who really cares. At that point we are just stating a fact without putting any context around it.

It's like stating "California has a bigger population than Vermont"

Yeah?

So what?

A debate on firm numbers without context is just a recitation of statistics and is rather pointless don't you think?

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread was, I assumed some chest thumping on all sides.

The stats are meaningful since their the primary indicators of a well functioning economy. This is just a comparison of numbers and nothing more. And yes it is pointless except when it comes to forecasting and such.

Happiness is difficult to garner from economic figures. Literacy can't tell me whether people are happy, nor can GDP, nor can taxation rates. Happiness would be better measured by asking people whether their happy with X states policies, proud to be of X nationality, etc...

Erm? Socialism isnt Nazism - Why is it that people join the far right with the left wing? They are barely connected.

1. Nazism, Naziism, national socialism -- (a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism)

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=nazism

Yeah they're living the good life for now, but what's going to happen when the oil and natural gas starts to run out in the next two decades in Norway?

Same thing America did when some of it's old industries went dry - found new things to develop.

With the increased need for oil delivery around the world, and the icreased busines in travel/tourism - Norways shipbuilding sector has also taken off like a rocket lately. If they no longer wind up producint the oil, they will be building the boats to carry it from elsewhere.

The first line in the CIA world Factbook Economy section on Norway:

"The Norwegian economy is a prosperous bastion of welfare capitalism, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. "

They may like their social programs socialized, but they know enough to keep their business seperate from their personal matters.

I think they'll be just fine.

the torture ,the anal rape, the cluster bombing, the arm twisting of small nations to follow it commands. the endless lies, the secret detentions, the wanton murder of civilians... ect.. ect... ect....

What are you talking about? Where did you get torture and anal rape? Come on thats just silly.

As for the cluster bombing, we did bomb the heck out of quite a few countries. Seems like we dropped an entire BUTT-LOAD on Germany during WWII. They happened to be murdering civilians, launching V1 rockets at England, and fire boming London at the time but I guess that don't count.

As for Lies and secret detentions and murder of civilians, I do belive you need to read more HISTORY and fewer propoganda flyers. The US provides 80% of the economic aid provided to smaller countries. The fact that most if that aid get sent through the UN and then THEY claim the credit seems to blind people to the facts.

I also want to ask about the US twisting the arms of smaller nations.
What exactly are you refering to? The only time I can think of when the US TOLD another nation was during the 1st Gulf war. The US made sure that Isreal stayed out of it even though Iraq was launching scuds on a daily basis at that country. (And they did stay out of it.)

As before. What are you taking about?

i can tell you don't know what Nazi stands for. Since you don't here it is.

National Socialist German Workers party

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread was, I assumed some chest thumping on all sides.

The stats are meaningful since their the primary indicators of a well functioning economy. This is just a comparison of numbers and nothing more. And yes it is pointless except when it comes to forecasting and such.

Happiness is difficult to garner from economic figures. Literacy can't tell me whether people are happy, nor can GDP, nor can taxation rates. Happiness would be better measured by asking people whether their happy with X states policies, proud to be of X nationality, etc...

I wasn't sure of the point either - which is why I tried to put some context around the numbers.

However, having spent a lot of time in both the US and France, I would have to say that both have their issues people are happy with and those that they aren't. And both are certainly proudly nationalistic. The French seem more relaxed while the average american is more driven - but they both seem happy enough to be that way so what the hell do I care! I do know which side of the coin I prefer though, and it doesn't include a two week vacation per year - hell, I've taken nearly two months off over the past year and it hasn't felt like enough. Which is why I'm taking two more weeks starting Monday. :)


In the end - this thread just wants to be a pissing contest started by somebody who grabbed a single statistical number as the starting point that would ensure that his side would win.

Pointless in the long run - but entertaining to those who like to be juvenile about things I guess.

zeppistan exactly where are you and why aren't you at work?
you seem educated enough to be an adult, but you're home most of the day and you're not on vacation.

and to answer the inevitable question I know you're going to ask about me-

i'm 17 on summer vacation so i don't have anywhere to be any time soon.

I wasn't sure of the point either - which is why I tried to put some context around the numbers.

However, having spent a lot of time in both the US and France, I would have to say that both have their issues people are happy with and those that they aren't. And both are certainly proudly nationalistic. The French seem more relaxed while the average american is more driven - but they both seem happy enough to be that way so what the hell do I care! I do know which side of the coin I prefer though, and it doesn't include a two week vacation per year - hell, I've taken nearly two months off over the past year and it hasn't felt like enough. Which is why I'm taking two more weeks starting Monday. :)


In the end - this thread just wants to be a pissing contest started by somebody who grabbed a single statistical number as the starting point that would ensure that his side would win.

Pointless in the long run - but entertaining to those who like to be juvenile about things I guess.

Agreed. The original poster didn't provide any statistical basis for his points so I thought I'd back whatever claim I make with some information on macro-economic numbers.

But yeah, its a chest thumping competition.

1. Nazism, Naziism, national socialism -- (a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism)

No.

The name of the NSDAP was deliberately constructed to be "catch all", to appeal to everyone in Germany who wasn't Jewish or foreign, much like their 1920 manifesto, and as such caught a lot of left wingers in its early years. During the 1920s there was a fairly strong Socialist wing of the NSDAP led by Gregor Strasser, who was Hitler's main rival at the time, and later was murdered during the Night of the Long Knives. Many of these Socialists became disillusioned with Nazism when they noticed it wasn't for the worker or Socialist, which is part of the reason for the NSDAP's high turnover rate in its early years.

The rest of the Party, Hitler's lackeys, tended to be more specfic when speaking to industrialists that they were interested in destroying war profiteering and finance Capitalism, banking and that sort of thing, (due to tosh about it being all Jewish owned and served the Jews and so on,) but that major industries were safe. The term "Socialist" in the National Socialist German Workers' Party was deliberately chosen to be ambiguous (part of their "catch all" policy with propaganda,) but essentially referred to the Nazi ideal of Volksgemeinschaft. That is to say, all of the people of Germany working for the betterment of the state and country of Germany in a national community. It did not refer to Socialism in the economic or contemporary political sense and the Nazis spent most of their time marginalising lefties as "Marxists".

Oh, before the debate gets even more confused, "welfare Capitalism" is a polite term for Social Democracy, which is what most Europeans mean these days when they say "Socialism". It applies to the UK, Germany, France, Norway, I think Italy and actually quite a huge chunk of Europe though. Western European Socialist countries are amongst the richest countries in the world, most with relatively decent quality of life for its population.

It's the welfare state, cradle to grave care by the government, even America has it to a lesser extent with state funded schools and medicaid and so on. Norway is particularly nasty about it, massive tax rates IIRC causing prohibitive food costs in particular but they managed to crawl to the top of the UN's quality of life list.

Ow ow ow, lot of dribble in this thread.

zeppistan exactly where are you and why aren't you at work?
you seem educated enough to be an adult, but you're home most of the day and you're not on vacation.

and to answer the inevitable question I know you're going to ask about me-

i'm 17 on summer vacation so i don't have anywhere to be any time soon.

YEs I'm an adult, I'm in Canada, and I AM at work.

I am a self employed software designer/developer and so my time is flexible. I have projects and I have deadlines. As long as the project is delivered on time I get paid. Some days - I don't post at all as I push to meet a delivery or if I am onsite at the customer's premises. Some days I take things a bit easier. Somtimes I wander in and out as things like test scripts are running where I have a few minutes before I can check results and get back to the job.

For the last two hours I have been remotely babysitting the import of a multi-terrabyte sized database onto a new server - which consists largely of checking a window for error messages and watching some other relvant system specs. If all goes well it should be done shortly at which point I will have to leave here to get down to the business of rebuilding indexes, reorganizing tablespaces, generating statistics and configuring a webserver for this box.

That answer your question?

The US of course.
It is the biggest economy in the world.
Bigger than the economies of France, Britain and Germany combined together actually.

This is not a trick question..lol

The United States has the strongest economy in the world.. that whole super power status thing ya know ;)

Germany also managed to attack the US on the East coast. German U-boats prowled the coast sinking shipping and firing upon port cities that had no blackout. If the US had not gotten lucky and sunk one of those U-boats most of New York city would have been in flaming ruins. It seems that the U-boat in question was equipped with Incendary rockets with orders to fire upon New York. If those rockets had hit MOST of New York would have been ashes.

If the German U-boats had been able to fire rockets you realy think the loss of a single U-boat would have stopped them from going at it again? They did give it a try to place rockets on U-boat but it just couldn't be done at the time.

Yeah they're living the good life for now, but what's going to happen when the oil and natural gas starts to run out in the next two decades in Norway?
And what? Norway is all of Skandinavia? Sweden, Denmark and Finland seem to be doing well also. Without having any oil or gas.

Saying that the United States' economy is more powerful than that of Frances is one thing, but saying that it is better is a bit of a stretch. The simple fact is that for a capitalist nation to attain wealth, it must subjugate not only its own people (working class and racial minorities in particular), but those of nations which it wishes to extract ressources or labour from. So when one derives its strength from the despair of others, it is better than no one.
Also, France is not a socialist nation...Spain has elected a socialist party to form its government, and France seems to be leaning towards socialism in its next election (as shown by regional elections), but it to date is not a socialist country.

Nazi twat, acctually, viewing his posts, he seems more socialist to me. I think it is just his name of his NS nation that fooled you. I myself am socialist, yet I have a complete opposite NS nation to a socialist nation. A game, and real life, are two way different things.

Like hell I'm a socialist. Socialism is a bane to society. As well as Nazism (National Socialism), Communism, and Fascism.....(and to those that don't believe Hitler was a socialist, click this link (http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html)......and this one (http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id13.html), as well......point by point outlines how Hitler would be on the far-Left of American spectrum today.....

Nazi Weaponized Virus, (and every non-American), why is it that you care about America and our President? If you're not American, it doesn't affect you one iota. If we elect (and President Bush was elected, contrary to what a lot of you want to believe) someone like President Bush, that's our problem...not your's....

Me!

Europe versus America
I highly recommend a new report by Swedish think-tank Timbro, comparing the economies of the EU vs. the US (http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf) (PDF, requires Acrobat Reader). To quote their conclusion: "If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA."

See also this comment on the study from today's Wall Street Journal: "We don't report this with any nationalist glee. The world needs a prosperous, growing Europe, and its relative economic decline is one reason for growing EU-American tension. A poorer Europe lacks the wealth to invest in defense, a fact that in turn affects the willingness of Europeans to join America in confronting global security threats. But at least all of this is a warning to U.S. politicians who want this country to go down the same welfare-state road to decline."

Posted at June 20, 2004 03:13 PM

http://www.fredriknorman.com/archives/000098.html

Are you hypocritically racist on purpose or is just because you are a right wing jew?

Maybe its because Europeans like being socialist? Ever thought about that, you complete and utter moron? I am European and I am proud that we are socialist, we dont have poverty rates like you do in the US, or the massive national debt and over burdgeoning military spending. We spend on things that are worthwhile, like Healthcare and Education.
Shut up Nazi we in America have freedom, which has no price

Because 12 really compares to the 15-20 million Russian civilians who died, and recent estimates suggest it may even have been larger than that.
About half if not more of the Russian deaths in WWII were at the hands of Russians. Stalin's strategy for fighting a war was execute those who fought in a losing battle. (real smart LOL).

To say that Europe is not doing as well as the US in economic terms is a result of WWII would be true 30 years ago, but now that's just an excuse for the failure of Socialism.

That is like saying that the North having a better economy that the South in the early 20th centry is a result of the Civil War. That would be true before the turn of the century, but is a result of the leaders spending more time persecuting the blacks with Jim Crow laws than bettering their society and economy.

Same situation over 100 years later.

Like hell I'm a socialist. Socialism is a bane to society. As well as Nazism (National Socialism), Communism, and Fascism.....(and to those that don't believe Hitler was a socialist, click this link......and this one, as well......point by point outlines how Hitler would be on the far-Left of American spectrum today.....

Nazi Weaponized Virus, (and every non-American), why is it that you care about America and our President? If you're not American, it doesn't affect you one iota. If we elect (and President Bush was elected, contrary to what a lot of you want to believe) someone like President Bush, that's our problem...not your's....

Me!
Socialism? A bane to society? Which socialist societies are you thinking of when you say that? I can think of a lot of succesful socialist states, particularly here in Europe.

To tar all socialists with the national socialist brush is as absurd as citing Bill Gates and General Pinochet in the same breath as examples of free market capitalism. Post-war investigations led to a number of revelations about the cosy relationship between German corporations and the Reich. Corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda! Benito Mussolini himself said, "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism, as it is a merge of state and corporate power."

As for the Nazi's self-definition as a socialist party, don't trust self-definitions. East Germany's official name was the German Democratic Republic. Do you think it was democratic?

As for us caring about the US Presidential eletions, it is important to us. The USA is the most powerful country in the world. Its actions have consequences for us all. It matters to us who is running the show there.

About half if not more of the Russian deaths in WWII were at the hands of Russians. Stalin's strategy for fighting a war was execute those who fought in a losing battle. (real smart LOL).

Well the missing half is easily made up by the 11 million Russian military deaths. And no, only about 5% can be attributed to the Russian killing each other, and that is a very very liberal estimate.

If the German U-boats had been able to fire rockets you realy think the loss of a single U-boat would have stopped them from going at it again? They did give it a try to place rockets on U-boat but it just couldn't be done at the time.


Yes, in all of my studies of World War II, I have never read of any reports of a German U-boat equipped with incendiary rockets being sunk in or near the coastal United States. There certainly were U-boats that were sunk in US waters, but with rockets equipped? Beyond that, the original post exaggerates the effects an incendiary rocket attack would have. NYC would not be a pile of rubble, in fact, the damage would be relatively light. Extensive German bombing by plane and rocket never reduced London to rubble, and this was certainly more then the payload of incendiary rockets a U-boat would've had. It would've caused damage, but a pile of rubble is more attune to cities like Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo, Stalingrad, etc.

There where also several French and German officers training the Americans.

True, but being a franco-American thread I didn't think of mentioning Von Stueben, who is directly responsible for the American Army not repeating it's dismal defeats of the early campaigns, and allowing them to fight the main British force. As for the French, there are a large number of them (and not all were beneficial), but the most outstanding example would have to be Lafeyette, according to some accounts Washington's most trusted subordinate, and at the very least one of the omre able commanders inthe American military. Washington was also influenced by Rochembeau when he met him, but by that time there was little campaigning to be done except the Yorktown seige.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMany=25&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield1%2C%2Bstringfield1&resultsSortCategoryName=rank&category1=Country+of+Residence&searchParameter1=7Str%7C%7CPatCS%7C%7CFrance&category2=category&searchParameter2=unset

And the top 10 are all from the USA

Thats a lie, one is from Saudi Arabia

About half if not more of the Russian deaths in WWII were at the hands of Russians. Stalin's strategy for fighting a war was execute those who fought in a losing battle. (real smart LOL).

Point me to a source that says over 15 million Russians died at the hands of execution for cowardice e.t.c. and I will believe you. Unfortunately you probably don't have a source, seeing as you are stupid and all.

Shut up Nazi we in America have freedom, which has no price

Yep, the freedom to agree with President or face being called 'unpatriotic!' (the worst insult in America).

The US of course.
It is the biggest economy in the world.
Bigger than the economies of France, Britain and Germany combined together actually.

The EU's economy is bigger.

Well the missing half is easily made up by the 11 million Russian military deaths. And no, only about 5% can be attributed to the Russian killing each other, and that is a very very liberal estimate.

It should be noted my 5% estimate is only in areas not under German occupation or a battlefield, I am not counting Soviet executions of Soviets found to be cooperating (or even allegedly cooperating) with Axis forces, and not counting any Soviets who aided the einsatzgruppen in their extermination efforts.


Back to the economy, someone quoted the list of the richest people in the world. But how would that prove an economy to be stronger, for all we know their major investments are in America or Asia and they just happen to live in France becuase it has a pretty landscape or is where they are from.

Point me to a source that says over 15 million Russians died at the hands of execution for cowardice e.t.c. and I will believe you. Unfortunately you probably don't have a source, seeing as you are stupid and all.
Probably not over 15 million. But several million most likely were executed for cowardice. During the battle of Stalingrad the Soviets still found the time to execute at least 15,000 for those reasons. One can only imagine what happened to the more then 2,000,000 Russian POW's who were returned to comrade Stalins loving embrace after the war. Cause it's a common fact that Stalin viewed the troops that surrendered, rather then fight to the death, as traitors to the Soviet Union. And that was punishebal by death.

And if they weren't executed they were worked to death in Siberia or other remote locations.
And where is the edit button?

Point me to a source that says over 15 million Russians died at the hands of execution for cowardice e.t.c. and I will believe you. Unfortunately you probably don't have a source, seeing as you are stupid and all.

Why do you continually insult people? Is it simply your nature to believe that you're superior to everyone who doesn't have the same beliefs as you?

france has an unfair advantage

since they don't have to spend any money for defence, intelegance or peacekeeping they have a hell of alot more money to pour into their socialist programs

Explain that to the Eastern Europeans who keep joining NATO. France pulled out of the NATO command structure decades ago. You don't speak for all Europeans, your not a cultural monolith and you never will be.

I'm afraid that you don't speak for most Europeans either, NATO's role has diminished and even Conservative Politicians across the continent are starting to wake up to the fact that a European Defence Force is to the benefit of European nations as it provides security for our continent.

PS I'm Polish and most Poles find French arrogance highly annoying. Chirac's overbearing attitude towards the "young" europeans annoys many in the East. I believe a Czech diplomat said it bst about France: No more security guarantees from France.

Exactly, your Polish, despised by pretty much the whole of Europe for your 'WE WANT THE SAME AMOUNT OF MEP's AS GERMANY!' attitudes, half of your population are farmers anyway, but you seem to disregard the fact that even in Eastern Europe, socialist Governments are taking shape.

Israel is America's friend because it has time after time throught thick and thin stood with America. Isn't a good friend supposed to stick it out with you no matter what? Your also not supposed to ditch good friends just because it would make you more popular

Israel and America are 'good friends' for a variety of reasons, not least the fact the Jewish Lobby Groups put pressure on The State Department and contribute alot of capaign aid to administrations that say they are going to be pro-Israel. Israel also occupies a position whereby it can be of tactical value to the US, situated within the middle-east America gives Israel every opportunity to flaunt International Law and UN Resolutions, I would like a friend who stopped me from going to Jail if I murdered someone, wouldn't you?

France and Germany don't speak for Europe. Their governments would like to think so, but they don't. Most Europeans don't subscribe to the rabid anti-American nonsense coming out of Paris and Berlin these days. Hell, even Schroeder has been more conciliatory of late. Only Chirac and Villepin (following a long standing tradition of opposing America no matter what) steadfastly refuse to mend the ties.

Correction, France and Germany don't speak for EASTERN Europe. As thier ungratefulness has never been exceded by any member nation. Even now French, German, Spanish and even British politicians are ruing the day the expanded in the poverty stricken shithole that is Poland. Basically, Western Europe is pretty much united, Eastern Europe is trying to punch above its weight.

If you would actually read a Polish magazine or maybe travel to Warsaw you'd realize that most Poles like America, genuinely like America. Their opposed to their troops being in Iraq, not to the war.

Perhaps you would like to read your own Polls once in a while?

How did an opportunity to bash France's failed economics turn into another "Europe > America"? Why are Western Europeans surprised when other nations around the world throw the word arrogant around when speaking about them?

Erm actually I think the thread itself made by IDF was pretty arrogant, and isn't it kind of ironic that you are now levelling critiscm at Western Europe for being arrogant when America has trademarked that trait years ago?

The U.S. has consistently posted better economic growth figures then the European Union. Avergae Euro zone growth? About 2%. Average american growth? Just below 4%. In terms of real GDP growth, France and Germany consistently lag behind America by 1500 points according to numbers from The Economist. France has a 35 hour work week (with no reduction in pay from the 39-hour work week under Jospin), if anyone believes you can compete with an American work week that is about 45-55 hours then your mistaken.

The limits on hours of working weeks were to protect worker's rights, a cause that I'm glad to say is still alive in Europe. Although unfortunately trade unions seem to have been silenced in America under Regan. The EU as a whole has a larger economy, working out average Euro-Zone growth is not a good reflection of measuring the success of someones economy as an economy as large as The EU is obviously not going to progress at the same rates at which it did in the Industrial Revolution for example.

French GDP growth 1.7%; American GDP growth 3.4%.
French total GDP: 1,911 billion; American total GDP: 11, 278 billion.
French Inflation: 1.5%; American inflation: 1.3%.
French GDP per head: 31, 640$; American GDP per head: 38, 620$.

The issue is the EU versus America, Not France versus America. ut even if it was The French could bring up numerous facts supporting thier case. For example thier rich history and beatiful culture, displayed inparticurlarly in Paris is admired throughout the World.

Nazi Weaponized Virus you know NOTHING about economic figures, absolutely zero. Drop the anti-american crap and maybe look at the figures before posting some crap. All of the economic figures are in America's favour and not France's.

My brother is an Investment Banker who achieved a double first in economics at Warwick, and then a Masters at the LSE, two of the best economic Universities in Europe. I asked him to have a look through what you were saying, and he said it was absolute bullshit. Want to argue with somebody that is more qualified than you? Fine, but you, like Poland, are punching above your weight.

France has a longer history with dictators and pseudo-tyrants such as DeGaulle coming to power in 1958
Because France has been around longer, you can hardly argue that it is somehow the collective fault of one European nation that Monarchism was prevelant throughout the last millenia. And as for DeGaulle? He's a national hero in France, so why don't you go tell them he's a 'dictator'.

To sum it up, you Polish have been creating problems in the EU for some time now. You recieve massive grants for your fledgling economy, then moan that you don't have as many MEP's as an economic powerhouse with 90 million people in it.

france has an unfair advantage

since they don't have to spend any money for defence, intelegance or peacekeeping they have a hell of alot more money to pour into their socialist programs

They don't? Funny, I could've sworn France had a military, and that they were extensively involved in peacekeeping operations in West Africa (Ivory Coast). It's not as much that France underspends as the US spends an insanely large amount of money on defence.

They don't? Funny, I could've sworn France had a military, and that they were extensively involved in peacekeeping operations in West Africa (Ivory Coast). It's not as much that France underspends as the US spends an insanely large amount of money on defence.

france has a token military, they havn't actually used it since napolean

they put 300 troops into the ivory coast, we've got more troops in most of our embassies

and have you seen the state of the france army, they've got FA-MASs and are still dreaming of a eurofighter

Why do you continually insult people? Is it simply your nature to believe that you're superior to everyone who doesn't have the same beliefs as you?

Nope if a Conservative presents me with a valid argument, I reply in turn. But when you post stupid things like IDF does, they don't validate an intellectual response.

france has a token military, they havn't actually used it since napolean

Yes, those pouili's of World War I did just sit by and watch the Germans march around

they put 300 troops into the ivory coast, we've got more troops in most of our embassies

It's not the only area they have troops deployed in, but to say they do not participate in any peacekeeping activities is dead wrong.

and have you seen the state of the france army, they've got FA-MASs and are still dreaming of a eurofighter

And the only other CVN in the world besides an American one.

Yes, those pouili's of World War I did just sit by and watch the Germans march around.

after their preliminary offencive 1.8 million of their 2 million front line troops refused to go to the lines

It's not the only area they have troops deployed in, but to say they do not participate in any peacekeeping activities is dead wrong.

which ones? maybe a few medics here and there but they're all protected by our and allied troops and their costs are re-embursed by the UN

And the only other CVN in the world besides an American one.

which will conviniently never ever be used

france has a token military, they havn't actually used it since napolean

they put 300 troops into the ivory coast, we've got more troops in most of our embassies

and have you seen the state of the france army, they've got FA-MASs and are still dreaming of a eurofighter
I could've sworn that the fighter already exists and is in full production.
As far as I know Italy, Germany, Spain and the UK already got the first 620 last year. Or maybe this year.

France recently was rated 44th in the world for economic freedom by cato.org

USA was tied with switzerland in third etc

We could have a better one to, laissez faire!

after their preliminary offencive 1.8 million of their 2 million front line troops refused to go to the lines

What!? The Great Mutiny did not happen until 1917, far and away from the opening offensive (Plan XVII, after which they managed to rally and defeat Von Kluck at the Marne) and have you ever looked at the Nivelle offensives, they gained absolutely nothing and lost hundreds of thousands of troops for absolutely nothing, it was a massacre and waste even by WWI standards. And they did not refuse to go to the lines, they refused to go over the top, they agreed to defend the trenches. Furthermore, after Nivelle was replaced by Petain, the mutiny faded away, and the French again stopped Kaiserschlacht (to be fair, the British did a fair share of this offensive too), and went on the offensive pushing the Germans out.

Furthermore, this type of morale collapse happened to every army except those that did not participate as long (The US Army). The British experienced such a slackening of morale after the Somme, it wasn't outright mutiny, but had the Germans struck, the British would have collapsed. The Russians obviously experienced this in their total collapse. The Italians did after Caporetto, and the Germans did in 1918 after Kaiserschlacht was defeated, they knew defeat was inevitable, despite post-war remarks.



which ones? maybe a few medics here and there but they're all protected by our and allied troops and their costs are re-embursed by the UN

Since I'm not familar with every deployment of the French Military, I cannot argue this point.



which will conviniently never ever be used

Well, if the Americans ever get around to wanting their allies' help, it very well might see active service.

You have displayed astounding ignorance and at best, oafish rational. We are polish as well and must come to the defense of our fellow pole, Vorringia. Poland is not wholly comprised of farmers fool! Obviously, you have never been to Poland it is a beautiful country and Polish women are regarded as the jewels of eastern europe. Your savage insults only help to make you look like a swena dupa! Poland is poor yes, but only because it was under communist rule for so long. The Polski have a rich heritage and tradition. Throughout the 16th century and most of the seventeenth, Poland was highly feared for their elite cavalry units known as the Winged Hussars that made anything on the Russian steppe look like child's play. In fact For about 20-30 years Germany, Lithuania, Belarus did not even exist because they were part of Poland. I bet you even foolishly believe that vodka is a russian invention? well you would be idiotic once again because vodka was first distilled from potatoes (not rye) in.. yep, Poland. We also engineered the sabre which the Hussar's used with deadly brutallity. Poland has a long way to go but it is getting better for them. And besides Britain, they are also the largest coalition force in Iraq. Vorringia, We apologize for the dupa's idiocy and we have your back if you are ever so viciously attacked again. As for you, Nazi WTF? You should highly consider changing your nations name as it is offensive and just plain ignorant and wrong. May you someday use that pebble of a brain of yours.

In fact For about 20-30 years Germany, Lithuania, Belarus did not even exist because they were part of Poland.
Hahahaha!!! Maybe you should brush up on your knowledge of your countries history.

Hahahaha!!! Maybe you should brush up on your knowledge of your countries history.

I don't think he meant all of each country, it is certainly true that areas of Germany were claimed by Poland, parts of Lithuania (Vilna) were part of Poland up to WW2 as were parts of modern day Belarus.

I could've sworn that the fighter already exists and is in full production.
As far as I know Italy, Germany, Spain and the UK already got the first 620 last year. Or maybe this year.


Please ignore the troll. Yesterday's rant was that Canada didn't support the war in IRaq - because Iraq doesn't have enough white people.


He's just looking to get a rise out of people.

Wasn't Poland, like the Czech Republic, one of those countries invented after WWI and Versailles to annoy the Germans?

I don't dislike all Poles you fool, I dislike the way you are totally misinformed about the EU. It gives you, of all people, massive subsidies in terms of agriculture. As well as giving you numerous grants for other things. You are disrupting European Unity that so many people have fought for, its just ungratefulness.

Wasn't Poland, like the Czech Republic, one of those countries invented after WWI and Versailles to annoy the Germans?

Czechoslovakia was not created out of any German territory, it was created out of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's territory. Poland was likewise not only German, it was made of Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and German territory. And it certainly had a right to exist, with the three empires that had partitioned this country for over a century no longer existed, so what reason could there be to not grant them independence, they certainly were striving for it for many years. They certainly were not 'invented' to annoy the Germans.

I don't think he meant all of each country, it is certainly true that areas of Germany were claimed by Poland, parts of Lithuania (Vilna) were part of Poland up to WW2 as were parts of modern day Belarus.
I know that. It's his claim that those countries didn't existed cause beeing part of Poland. Belarus was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Germany as a state did not exist until 1871. Lithuania and Poland formed a commonwealth in 1377. And the first Jagolonian King was a Lithuanian.

"Wasn't Poland, like the Czech Republic, one of those countries invented after WWI and Versailles to annoy the Germans?"
He Virus, Poland is as a nation more than thousand years old. It is as old as Germany. They are both "old Europe". The same is the case for the Czech. The Kingdom of Bohemia existed also about a thousand years ago. The Habsburg dynasty took the territory over due to their marriage policy (Felix multos Austria - happy Austria marry). With that policy they were able to increase their territory without going to war.

"Germany as a state did not exist until 1871."
As a state you are right. However it existed as a nation, although there were several german states.
Italy was unified also pretty late.
Most states of today were founded much later.
The present German state was actually founded in 1949: The Federal Republic of Germany. In 1990 the east german states joined the Federal Republic of Germany, completing the unity of the nation.

France was never great in the first place usa is their economy then they have the nerve to put us down.

how did this thread get off of economics? i need something that i understand. history was never my thing, and i came into this forum hoping for some econ talk.

-kooterade

"Wasn't Poland, like the Czech Republic, one of those countries invented after WWI and Versailles to annoy the Germans?"
He Virus, Poland is as a nation more than thousand years old. It is as old as Germany. They are both "old Europe".
No their not. Just ask Rumsy. :D

"Germany as a state did not exist until 1871."
As a state you are right. However it existed as a nation, although there were several german states.
I don't agree. Since it also incorporatet Bohemia, Moravia, Switzerland, the low countries, Nortern Italy and Burgundy.

No their not. Just ask Rumsy. :D

Donald Rumsfeld was just overstretched when he made this statement. After all he also said that he is old himself. So: I don´t see a problem with age here. Not many nation are as young as the US actually. You ought to grow up, young cousin.

I don't agree. Since it also incorporatet Bohemia, Moravia, Switzerland, the low countries, Nortern Italy and Burgundy.

I´m referring to a "nation" as a cultural bond, as a feeling of belonging together, being part of one national history. And this was there among the people. The german national movement began already in the early 19 th century.
Of course: this bond was only there among the german speaking people (Switzerland by the way is independent and had a seperate development since the middle age - it may on paper still belonged to the Holy Roman Empire but not in reality), the Czechs already formed their own movement for the foundation of their national state. The fact that there is not a political unity does not mean that the "nation" as an idea didn´t exist.
It existed - in the modern form - since Napoleon. A common enemy can work wonders. Well: for the US that once´s was Britain.
The modern national state is a new concept anyway. It exists since Absolutism actually. Before that time you can only speak about kingdoms or empires but not about states (in todays sense of the word).

Donald Rumsfeld was just overstretched when he made this statement. After all he also said that he is old himself. So: I don´t see a problem with age here.
Well, I think it's dangerouse to have an old minister who says stupid things. Could be Parkinson or Alzheimer.

It existed - in the modern form - since Napoleon.
If you are reffering to the Rhein Bund, those where not a political union. Every member still had it's own monarch. Also Prussia was not a member.

In pure economic terms currently the US wins hands down.

But, really, both countries have very different philosophies regarding economy, the role of the state and wealth distribution that it's useless to compare simple economic indicators.

edit adding the quote so people dont get confused
Well, I think it's dangerouse to have an old minister who says stupid things. Could be Parkinson or Alzheimer


Parkinson’s
Lol

Effects of Parkinson’s

In Parkinson's disease, there is not enough dopamine to keep balance with the acetylcholine. The result of this imbalance is a lack of coordination of your movement that often appears as tremor, stiff muscles and joints, and/or difficulty moving


How would that affect effective decision making ?

Fast growing economy isn't everything. You need stable sustainable growth or else it's too fragile.


Effects of Parkinson’s

In Parkinson's disease, there is not enough dopamine to keep balance with the acetylcholine. The result of this imbalance is a lack of coordination of your movement that often appears as tremor, stiff muscles and joints, and/or difficulty moving


How would that affect effective decision making ?
He said Parkinson OR Alzheimer's so it's just semantics.

I agree with you 100%!
Lol why don't you keep your trolling to stormfront.org .

If you are reffering to the Rhein Bund, those where not a political union. Every member still had it's own monarch. Also Prussia was not a member.

No: I don´t refer to an political union: I refer the word nation as an idea - a concept.
A nation can exists without a state. However the aim - the national idea would be to create one. A state however can not exists if there is no nation behind it - an idea, a concept that there is bound between the people in the territory.
So: I´m referring to a concept, not to an actually existing political union. And this concept - German nation - existed at least since the begining of the 19 th century. That´s the fact. And it was attempted to realize in 1848 by Liberals and Democrats and finally realized by Prussia and their conservative leadership in 1871 with the creation of an unified german state.

No: I don´t refer to an political union: I refer the word nation as an idea - a concept.
A nation can exists without a state. However the aim - the national idea would be to create one. A state however can not exists if there is no nation behind it - an idea, a concept that there is bound between the people in the territory.
So: I´m referring to a concept, not to an actually existing political union. And this concept - German nation - existed at least since the begining of the 19 th century. That´s the fact. And it was attempted to realize in 1848 by Liberals and Democrats and finally realized by Prussia and their conservative leadership in 1871 with the creation of an unified german state.
In that case it still isn't a nation. Since the Bavarians don't view themselves as Germans but as Bavarians. And so does the rest of the country. :p

In that case it still isn't a nation. Since the Bavarians don't view themselves as Germans but as Bavarians. And so does the rest of the country. :p
Like Britain isn´t a nation in that respect: The Scotts say: We are not British, we are Scotts.

Well: the Bavarians are special. But if the CSU (from Bavaria) comes back to power together with the conservative CDU (Germany (except Bavaria) and the Liberals (Germany and Bavaria) that reduces a bit. After all: the Bavarians have not approved the German basic law (constituition) as the only state of the Federal Republic of Germany. But they are in compliance to it.

Well: I´ve heard that there are sometimes ideas that Texas or California should be independent states???
So, a bit of seperatism is OK. After all: many countries are federal states: Gerrmany is: tribalism always existed up to a certain degree.

Everyone complaining that France's GDP growth is low - look at the numbers for GDP growth per capita. Its near even for both France and the United States.

But, France is much smaller and has less people (along with less resources, ect ect), so I'd have to give my vote to the US.

How did you find out about out master plan?!;)

Don't worry Leynier...our Master Igloo Assassins will deal with you! Mouhahahaha

(Yes I live in Canada and yes we're planning to invade Vermont...you can't stop us...)

How about a swap? Y'all can have all of New England and we get...hrm...oh! We get Anne Murray! :)

Everyone complaining that France's GDP growth is low - look at the numbers for GDP growth per capita. Its near even for both France and the United States.

But, France is much smaller and has less people (along with less resources, ect ect), so I'd have to give my vote to the US.
.



You raise an important point. If you compare growth rates you also have to compare the growth rate of the population. In the US that is almost 2%. Meaning: in order to keep the GDP per capita the US needs 2% growth. In European countries the growth rate of the population is mostly 0% (or -0,1%). So: 2% growth really mean 2% growth per capita.

None the less: The US is of course much more important than France or any other country in the world. It is the only remaining super power, the largest economy in the world.
The vote has of course go to the US.

really i heard it was secretly the french and belgian intelligence services that brought down the soviet union. i heard gorby was a french sleeper, planted in the early 60s under degaulle.
And all along i was sure he was a CIA sleeper... :D

Yep, the freedom to agree with President or face being called 'unpatriotic!' (the worst insult in America).
I agree with you Nazi on that, wholly. That is an example of America with an ass hole party in charge.

Nazi twat, acctually, viewing his posts, he seems more socialist to me. I think it is just his name of his NS nation that fooled you. I myself am socialist, yet I have a complete opposite NS nation to a socialist nation. A game, and real life, are two way different things.

He's still a twat and he's still got Nazi in his name.