NationStates Jolt Archive

Have any of the rest of you noticed the countless Socialist and Social Democrat parties in Europe? Did capitalism really win the cold war? Or was the cold war a triumph more for Liberal Democracy over tyranny?

It seems to me that even America's economy is slowly becoming both more corporatist, and at the same time more socialist. The corporations are subsuming many of the roles of the state, and at the same time the state is beginning to take more and more control of those corporations.

Only time will tell which way America will go...to the right, or to the left... back to Europe, though, do any of you think that there's a chance the EU could turn socialist?

The state, whether corpopate or socialist has a vested interest in its own human resourses. Human slavery has always, and will allways exist.

Jim

It's a Swedish plot for global domination!

Nah, it's Nepalian!

in europe there has been a rise in both far left and right.ie luabor win the genrel election in 97,the rise in sorport of the bnp (bad) and in frances last election jon marel lepen (i think) nerly got into power

Eu could probably newer turn socialist. Eu is more or less legaly bound to be an rightwing liberal/conservative state (note to non europeans Liberals means Right wing, wile conservatives usualy are an bit social conservative)

As for the socialist parties we have 2 kinds. First we have the social democrats they are more or less Neo liberal (like Tonny Blair and he´s labour partie) and then we have the communist parties whitsh more or less all are Social democrates of the old way.

either way probably no hope ever of Eu turning left wing. After all pretty moutsh every Left party in EU want to leave it so if they came to power they would leave.

It seems to me that even America's economy is slowly becoming both more corporatist, and at the same time more socialist. The corporations are subsuming many of the roles of the state, and at the same time the state is beginning to take more and more control of those corporations.

Sounds like America is becoming fascist.

Sounds like America is becoming fascist.
It is. All hail Demokkkracy.

in europe there has been a rise in both far left and right.ie luabor win the genrel election in 97,the rise in sorport of the bnp (bad) and in frances last election jon marel lepen (i think) nerly got into power
The Labour Party far left? With all due respect, what the hell are you talking about?

Only a US socialist government (or communist government) can make me change my mind about US politics, wich I now kind of...dislike. I hope the world will take a left turn, though, I think the world will grow more capitalistic. I'm from Norway, we are not a part of EU. And personally, I don't want to be a part of EU either. But you see, they are forcing these stupid laws and requirements on us, so eventually, we will be a part of EU too. And I do not want some German or Swiss or French or British or whatever to tell me what to do.
You see, in a few years from now, I think Europe will be one country, divided into states (like USA). You will have USA, Europe, Russia, and possilby an asian union, I don't know. Also, I think there will be some kind of Mid-Eastern alliance/union. So, basicly, I'm not exactly looking forward for years to come. I hope I can get a job in Cuba...

Only a US socialist government (or communist government) can make me change my mind about US politics, wich I now kind of...dislike. I hope the world will take a left turn, though, I think the world will grow more capitalistic.

Okay, so you want the world to become more socialist. But then you say:

I'm from Norway, we are not a part of EU. And personally, I don't want to be a part of EU either. But you see, they are forcing these stupid laws and requirements on us, so eventually, we will be a part of EU too.

Any organisation which forces stupid laws and requirements onto you is socialist in my book. Stll want the world to take a left turn?

Labour are barely even left. In fact, recent policy changes in policing etc are certainly displaying significant right-of-centre policy. It comes to something when the Lib Dems are the furthest left mainstream party :confused:

Only a US socialist government (or communist government) can make me change my mind about US politics, wich I now kind of...dislike. I hope the world will take a left turn, though, I think the world will grow more capitalistic. I'm from Norway, we are not a part of EU. And personally, I don't want to be a part of EU either. But you see, they are forcing these stupid laws and requirements on us, so eventually, we will be a part of EU too. And I do not want some German or Swiss or French or British or whatever to tell me what to do.
You see, in a few years from now, I think Europe will be one country, divided into states (like USA). You will have USA, Europe, Russia, and possilby an asian union, I don't know. Also, I think there will be some kind of Mid-Eastern alliance/union. So, basicly, I'm not exactly looking forward for years to come. I hope I can get a job in Cuba...

I hear they are looking for cane-field workers. low pay, hard work, and you have to listen to castro's speaches all day. ;) On the plus side, you get to live in a socialist "paradise". oh boy

I think you may just be mistaken about the EU being massively socialistic.
I'll use Germany as example, sometimes branching out to France or Austria.
In Germany there's five notable parties:
SPD - Social(ist)-democratic Party of Germany
CDU/CSU - Christian Democratic/Social Union
Grüne - Greens
FDP - Libertarian Democratic Party
PDS - Party of Democratic Socialism

which can be basically transelated to:
Democrats
Republicans
Greens
Libertarians
Socialists

The social/socialist has a different meaning in Europe. It doesn't directly mean hardcore communist impounding of goods and what not. It just means that they really, really like workers rights and welfare.

France is the meanest one on welfare and workers rights. They tend to have a lot more small parties that can make a difference on a regional and national scale by supporting or not supporting a candidate.

Austria tends to be more conservative by tradition, leaning less on welfare.



Yeah, the EU is a rather evil construct in my personal opinion. I'm against anything but a purely economical union with our neighbour countries. But I'm Libertarian so what the hell.


Any organisation which forces stupid laws and requirements onto you is socialist in my book. Stll want the world to take a left turn?
Like the US of A that imposes certain federal laws on its member states or the NAFTA that imposes certain business de-regulations? There's countless organizations that impose laws on you. It's YOUR choice if you want to remain part of them. Well, the choice of the majority of the people etc.

Any organisation which forces stupid laws and requirements onto you is socialist in my book. Stll want the world to take a left turn?The Dictionary says:

A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

[Socialism] was first applied in England to Owen's theory of social reconstruction, and in France to those also of St. Simon and Fourier . . . The word, however, is used with a great variety of meaning, . . . even by economists and learned critics. The general tendency is to regard as socialistic any interference undertaken by society on behalf of the poor, . . . radical social reform which disturbs the present system of private property . . . The tendency of the present socialism is more and more to ally itself with the most advanced democracy. --Encyc. Brit.

We certainly want a true history of socialism, meaning by that a history of every systematic attempt to provide a new social existence for the mass of the workers. --F. Harrison."

What book were you using? The Boy's Bumper Book of Political Ideologies?

The Dictionary says:

A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

Regardless of what the dictionary says, all socialist societies that have existed have been heavily regulated and heavily taxed.

With all due respect to Vitania, the difficulty of talking politics with many Americans is exactly this kind of wild generalisation. Even if all socialist societies were heavily regulated and heavily taxed or had stupid laws, this would not logically mean that all societies with those characteristics were socialist.
This kind of illogical argument that can only pass for political in an environment where political discussion has been deliberately narrowed and sterilised. Pretty much all other advanced economies have Labour or Social Democratic Parties, that at least claim to represent the working class, even if they fail to defend wages and living standards. Only in the US can Presidents such as Reagan and Bush, who so transparently steal from working Americans to reward their rich cronies, only in America can these politicians claim to speak for the workers and what’s more, win their votes. There are historical reasons, and like all historical things, they are in constant flux. The declining voter turnout in the US is an extreme example of the increasing inability of the liberal democratic (ie capitalist democratic) political system to reconcile the demands of a failing economy with the aspirations of voters.

Peace be with you

Inigo+
Vicar Generalariat for the Missions
The Most Serene and Compassionate Republic of Santa Sagissima

The Labour Party far left? With all due respect, what the hell are you talking about?

Methinks the point was that the left has grown since the Labour Party took power, which isn't really the case - more that the left has been left as the Labour Party moved to the centre (if not the right).

Vas.

Regardless of what the dictionary says, all socialist societies that have existed have been heavily regulated and heavily taxed.
Including the Paris Commune? Or Spain under the Popular Goverment?

Only a US socialist government (or communist government) can make me change my mind about US politics, wich I now kind of...dislike. I hope the world will take a left turn, though, I think the world will grow more capitalistic. I'm from Norway, we are not a part of EU. And personally, I don't want to be a part of EU either. But you see, they are forcing these stupid laws and requirements on us, so eventually, we will be a part of EU too. And I do not want some German or Swiss or French or British or whatever to tell me what to do.
You see, in a few years from now, I think Europe will be one country, divided into states (like USA). You will have USA, Europe, Russia, and possilby an asian union, I don't know. Also, I think there will be some kind of Mid-Eastern alliance/union. So, basicly, I'm not exactly looking forward for years to come. I hope I can get a job in Cuba...

Well cuba aint so great..I mean we got a bunch of people leaving cuba in home made rafts just for a slim chnace of making it to our shores. I for one dont want the USA to become socailist becuase that would mean the lazy people of this country gets a free ride on the income of those who do work for a living. I for one just think our government just needs to have less political games going around with the lobbyist, back scratching bills, ect.

Nah, they aren't socialist. Where is the worker-owned and managed means of production?

Capitalism and free enterprise are fine if the playing field is level. Encourage innovation and entrepreneurship.
But the US has become a puppet of transnational corporations, and imho they have little to do with capitalism, and a lot to do with hegemony.