NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, first off, no offense to you anarchists, but I'm REEEEALLY getting tired of hearing all this crap thats trying to be shoved down my throat. I have many, many friends (Depite popular believe hehe) and until now, I liked a lot of them. But now more and more of them believe Narchy si the way to go.

"Oh it's cool, no one tells you what to do... No government and stuff...!"

Wow, I am so impressed by your system of non-government. If we start believing in Anarchism, fun time approches us!

No, it doesn't. Now, if I say "When you have anarchism, there is no order." some anarchist is gonna run up and tell me "Why do you believe that! This is Anarchism (Shows me link to stupid website that gives me retarded information I don't care about." One Anarchist told me it's a system of communes.

Okay, seriously folks, we first abolish government. Then instinctly, people will flock to eachother and begin communes? Ain't gonna happen pal.

Without government, there is no order. Money becomes worthless, riots break out, people are killed. No "La-dee-daa I'm pickin' berries in my commune!"

Supposedly everyone is equal in the commune and everyone votes on everything. Yes, I'm sure.

Have YOU ever heard of a nation with a government that's fallen apart and is now happily in Anarchy?

---------

I'm up for a good debate here. But no stupid posts or flaming.

If you feel that way about anarchism, then nothing an anarchist says will change your mind. You've already been presented with the facts and rejected them. I don't understand why you even bother asking when you've already made up your mind.

Ha!

The reason anarchy won't work is the exact opposite reason from why communism won't work. Communism won't work because of the capitalists (like me) who want to get paid what they're worth and anarchy won't work because of the anarchists that think they can just run around uncivilized and wreak havoc. They think that with no laws to limit them, they do not have to limit themselves morally...

The reason anarchy won't work is the exact opposite reason from why communism won't work. Communism won't work because of the capitalists (like me) who want to get paid what they're worth and anarchy won't work because of the anarchists that think they can just run around uncivilized and wreak havoc. They think that with no laws to limit them, they do not have to limit themselves morally...
And yes, Letila, that is two reasons why anarcho-communism won't work...just so you know...

Very true

Communism won't work because of the capitalists (like me) who want to get paid what they're worth

As though being born into a rich family is hard work. :rolleyes:

anarchy won't work because of the anarchists that think they can just run around uncivilized and wreak havoc. They think that with no laws to limit them, they do not have to limit themselves morally...

So you need laws to tell you to be moral? How did they know how to make the first laws, then?

anarchy relies on changing human nature or at least a severe misjudging of what it is now.

it would require an extreme reworking of our society, economy, governments, military, international relations.... all of which would have to be done at the same time and done perfectly

its an interesting idea but why bother with messing with the impossible?

anarchy relies on changing human nature or at least a severe misjudging of what it is now.

it would require an extreme reworking of our society, economy, governments, military, international relations.... all of which would have to be done at the same time and done perfectly

its an interesting idea but why bother with messing with the impossible?

it worked in parts of spain for a little while, but in those chaotic and violent times its hard to judge how it would have worked under other circumstances.

Being born into a rich familiy does not matter. My father makes 200,000 a year and I hope to find a place in the Marine Corps. rather than leech off his sucess.

How did they learn to make the first laws? Simple. A group of civilzed people believed that people had too many liberties and were going beyond moral principles. They enforced many laws, and eventually, people began obeying because they realized these enforcers made their community a better place by upholding rules that kept everyone safe.

Being born into a rich familiy does not matter. My father makes 200,000 a year and I hope to find a place in the Marine Corps. rather than leech off his sucess.

So? You still have a massive headstart over someone who is poor. It's easy to pretend that capitalism rewards hard work when you're benefiting from it, not when you are suffering under it.

How did they learn to make the first laws? Simple. A group of civilzed people believed that people had too many liberties and were going beyond moral principles. They enforced many laws, and eventually, people began obeying because they realized these enforcers made their community a better place by upholding rules that kept everyone safe.

Such a rose-colored view of "might makes right" and violence. Did you get that out of Leviathan or are you quoting your American Government teacher?

Being born into a rich familiy does not matter. My father makes 200,000 a year and I hope to find a place in the Marine Corps. rather than leech off his sucess.

How did they learn to make the first laws? Simple. A group of civilzed people believed that people had too many liberties and were going beyond moral principles. They enforced many laws, and eventually, people began obeying because they realized these enforcers made their community a better place by upholding rules that kept everyone safe.
okay that's obviously not how laws evolved, laws evolved from folk customs and the enforcement of the will of the powerful upon the weak. it was only later codified into coherent systems.

Being born into a rich familiy does not matter. My father makes 200,000 a year and I hope to find a place in the Marine Corps. rather than leech off his sucess.


excellent idea. buechoria! the dicipline that you learn in the marines will serve you well all your life.

excellent idea. buechoria! the dicipline that you learn in the marines will serve you well all your life.
but will he go in as an enlisted man or go through rotc or some other program as an officer, the military is still one of the most class divided and structured institutions on modern society, in fact it really maintains a quasifuedal structure.

excellent idea. buechoria! the dicipline that you learn in the marines will serve you well all your life.

Actually, it will warp your mind to kill without remorse and rob you of your humanity.

I suppose, that one of the messages that our original poster was trying to get across was his/her frustration for Letila's constant declarations that anarcho-communism is the best system and how Letila plugs it in at every turn. Because that's how I feel. Meh, not like anyone cares anyway.

okay that's obviously not how laws evolved, laws evolved from folk customs and the enforcement of the will of the powerful upon the weak. it was only later codified into coherent systems.

Actually, if you look at the earliest legal systems, they developed as the exact opposite. British common law or Irish Brehon Law both gave people rights against the arbitrary enforcement of the will of the powerful. Anarchists have an issue with:
a. the development of laws to protect property (something that came with the development of the middle class and the birth of capitalism)
b. the codification of social standards into an inhuman legal system with its attendent legal hierarchy.
Anarchism is based on a rather simple rule: Do what you want as long as it doesn't interfere with everyone else's right to do what they want. An anarchist society would exist within that concept and a fluid interpretation of that based on voluntary co-operation. Having no laws does not mean having the right to do whatever you like, abolishing private property doesn't mean people can just take what they like from your house, and so on.

Vas.

I suppose, that one of the messages that our original poster was trying to get across was his/her frustration for Letila's constant declarations that anarcho-communism is the best system and how Letila plugs it in at every turn. Because that's how I feel. Meh, not like anyone cares anyway.

Shock horror, somebody advocating a system in a political discussion, quelle horreur!

Vas.

Actually, it will warp your mind to kill without remorse and rob you of your humanity.

In't dat whut discipline's for?

Vas.

Shock horror, somebody advocating a system in a political discussion, quelle horreur!

Vas.
...
Letila does it at every opportunity he can. When the topic concerns not other systems and is about one particular piece of politics in particular Letila shamelessly plugs in anarcho-communism and attempts to cast negative light on all that do not support him. And THAT is why I dislike it.

If you feel that way about anarchism, then nothing an anarchist says will change your mind. You've already been presented with the facts and rejected them. I don't understand why you even bother asking when you've already made up your mind.

No, we've been presented with a theory or opinion, not facts.

Letila does it at every opportunity he can. When the topic concerns not other systems and is about one particular piece of politics in particular Letila shamelessly plugs in anarcho-communism and attempts to cast negative light on all that do not support him. And THAT is why I dislike it.

Like topics with titles like "communism doesn't exist"?

So? You still have a massive headstart over someone who is poor. It's easy to pretend that capitalism rewards hard work when you're benefiting from it, not when you are suffering under it.



Such a rose-colored view of "might makes right" and violence. Did you get that out of Leviathan or are you quoting your American Government teacher?


I'm a teacher. Tell me that's not the working poor -- I can't afford to have a place to live without worrying about getting shot in any place I could afford.

Anarchism is simply the dream of people who don't want to work and join society. My suggestion: rather than drag the rest of us into your vision of the world, find a nice place to implement it and live happily there.

but will he go in as an enlisted man or go through rotc or some other program as an officer, the military is still one of the most class divided and structured institutions on modern society, in fact it really maintains a quasifuedal structure.

does it matter how he goes in? there is no free ride in the marines. rotc means he qualified as officer before he got in, he still has to work for it.

Okay, so I was a doopis when I wrote the law system. It evolved with initiative though.

I plan to join the Navy ROTC, work hard, then go into the Marines (Military smart people know the Marine Corps is a branch of the Navy).

It will NOT turn me into a killing machine, I assure you. If anything, it will turn me into a disciplined, more intelligent, patient teamworker.

Capitialism is a great system because peopel can work and hgte the money they deserve for their chosen field. Poor, homeless, and jobless people are rarely victims of Capitalism.

I'm a teacher. Tell me that's not the working poor -- I can't afford to have a place to live without worrying about getting shot in any place I could afford.

Anarchism is simply the dream of people who don't want to work and join society.

Honey, I probably earn more than you do, while managing to work within my principles and anarchist views. You're the teacher, obviously you have some ideas of creating a better world, or do you just do it for the miniscule pay cheque?

My suggestion: rather than drag the rest of us into your vision of the world, find a nice place to implement it and live happily there.

The obnoxious attitude of the sectarian fascist - "if you don't like what we do here, just leave" - the same attitude that opposed republicanism, abolitionism, led to McCarthyism, etc. It is my right, and everyone else's right, to work to create the society they want, where they are right now. It is not your right to tell us to go elsewhere. As long as we don't try and force you to do anything you don't want, your attitude is quite simply sectarian fascism - an objection to people thinking differently to you.

Vas.

Okay, so I was a doopis when I wrote the law system. It evolved with initiative though.

I plan to join the Navy ROTC, work hard, then go into the Marines (Military smart people know the Marine Corps is a branch of the Navy).

It will NOT turn me into a killing machine, I assure you. If anything, it will turn me into a disciplined, more intelligent, patient teamworker.

If that's your attitude, you won't last long. You planning to register as a conscientious objector straight off the bat? If not, you are expected to become a proper killing machine with a sufficiently racist attitude that you no longer see Arabs/insert latest evil "others" here as human.

Capitialism is a great system because peopel can work and hgte the money they deserve for their chosen field.

Rarely, unless they've got a good union (which would be socialist organisation within capitalism).

Poor, homeless, and jobless people are rarely victims of Capitalism.

Really? So it's not the capitalist system that has periods of growth and periods of recession? It wasn't unrestrained capitalism that led to the dot boom and the dot bomb? It wasn't the capitalist created dot bomb that left me out of a job for the best part of a year? Really?

Vas.

I'm tired of the lies the government tells us. I'm tired of the wars it starts. I'm tired of it censoring Gundam SEED. I'm tired of it telling me what I can and can't do with my body.

Hehe... You left me in uncontrollable giggle fits after I read that because that's the lamest thing I've ever heard.

You belive:

1. I will become a killing machine.

The job of the Army, Army Airborne, Navy, Marine corps, (Whoa, I could go one for a while) is not to endlessly kill. It's to prevent anarchist/fascist/communist terrorists and/or rebels who believe good governments should be overthrown.

2. I will have a racist additude.

News flash, there are black, hispanic, asian, and arab people in the military. How do I become racist when A. I have many friends of different races and B. When they become my comrades in battle?

3. I'm a sectarian fascist (What..?)

Listen buddy, this world is doing great with government. I'd love for it to all vanish so we can become one happy anarchist community. Bye bye electricy. Bye bye running water. Bye bye roads. Bye bye TV/Radio/Internet. Bye bye...

That's why I don't like your way of thinking. I am working hard to suceed in America. To live the American dream. Work and live in a peaceful enviroment. Have a good job. have a family. If we don't have a government, all those things are gonna be gone.

The job of the Army, Army Airborne, Navy, Marine corps, (Whoa, I could go one for a while) is not to endlessly kill. It's to prevent anarchist/fascist/communist terrorists and/or rebels who believe good governments should be overthrown.

Good government? Ha! This is the same government that doesn't let us control our own bodies and has used a combo of intellectual property laws and FCC censorship to effectively censor great anime like Gundam SEED. This is the same government that forces all men to sign up for selective service even when there isn't war going on.

I suppose you think any government that isn't as bad the USSR or Nazi Germany is good. If they think leaving Gundam SEED uncensored and letting people smoke pot is going to make us kill, then why do they warp people's minds so they will willingly take another's life?

Listen buddy, this world is doing great with government. I'd love for it to all vanish so we can become one happy anarchist community. Bye bye electricy. Bye bye running water. Bye bye roads. Bye bye TV/Radio/Internet. Bye bye...

Not all anarchism is primitivist. Many anarchists are very fond of technology.

That's why I don't like your way of thinking. I am working hard to suceed in America. To live the American dream. Work and live in a peaceful enviroment. Have a good job. have a family. If we don't have a government, all those things are gonna be gone.

I'm working hard to maintain my sanity in a place where sex is effectively considered a sin and the FCC keeps us from watching anything but stupid reality TV.

are we not living in the same country, let? seems to me that many people have sex, smoke dope, and watch whatever they want. ive never heard of gundam seed but it is not available through kazaa?

war is a sad fact of humanity. we have to be prepared. our young women should have to sign up too. (well, no one should, we dont need a draft now and probably wont at any time in the foreseeable future, but to be fair, if its men, it should be women too) you cant wish war away. all you can do is be ready when it comes to you. (im not a big fan of invading countries that have dont nothing to us)

we have incredible freedom to do what we want. espcially if you are opting out of the money chase. this IS the good life.

"Listen buddy, this world is doing great with government. I'd love for it to all vanish so we can become one happy anarchist community. Bye bye electricy. Bye bye running water. Bye bye roads. Bye bye TV/Radio/Internet. Bye bye...

That's why I don't like your way of thinking. I am working hard to suceed in America. To live the American dream. Work and live in a peaceful enviroment. Have a good job. have a family. If we don't have a government, all those things are gonna be gone."


You don't know what is happening with your world. Capitalism, that you defend so proudly, is going to ruin the planet.

Corporations take advantage of everyone and everything they can just so they make more money. Poor people get poorer, the rich get richer and nature suffers.
Pollution, crime, injustice. It all starts when the desire for power, for wealth stands above one's morals.

Evil people have no empathy, no respect for others. They do anything for power. And then people like you follow them. For what? So you can protect your house, your tv shows, your genetically modified snacks. A life of shallowness.

Do you think that the amazonian indians are unhappy, living in huts, fishing, hunting, loving, playing with their children in the river? No, on the contrary. They do not worry about getting more and more, they do not worry about a future that appears bright but is dark.

Meanwhile, in our world, scientists struggle to modify millions of years of natural evolution in order to feed more people for less money, at the expense of nature. Kids work their asses off, making snickers and jerseys for a miserable wage (just high enough to keep himself and maybe his parents alive until the next day, just so they work another day) just so the rich franchise owners get more money off shoes (shoes that cost 5 dollars total to make sold by 100).

Why? Why do these capitalists want more money? So they can die rich? So their children die rich? Does that make them any happier? Not much.

Will that make their great grandchildren happy?
Definetely not. The way things are going, the rich bastard's great grandson will be breathing canned oxygen, looking through a triple, radiation-proof, glass and contemplate the barren and desolate landscapes of our planet.

You might think I'm exagerating. I might be, I might not. Who knows what will happen if "civilized" humans continue to ravage our natural resources and to explore the disavantaged.


Hurray for capitalism...

You know whats funny? I DON'T WATCH TV

are we not living in the same country, let? seems to me that many people have sex, smoke dope, and watch whatever they want. ive never heard of gundam seed but it is not available through kazaa?

But the government is doing it's best to stop us from doing these things.

Hehe... You left me in uncontrollable giggle fits after I read that because that's the lamest thing I've ever heard.

You belive:

1. I will become a killing machine.

The job of the Army, Army Airborne, Navy, Marine corps, (Whoa, I could go one for a while) is not to endlessly kill. It's to prevent anarchist/fascist/communist terrorists and/or rebels who believe good governments should be overthrown.

Yee-haw, we're all gonna die. I'm presuming you're a Merkin - newsflash, if you had been in the Navy, your lying government would probably have tried to sacrifice you for a pack of lies in the past year (yup, I mean Eye-rak).

2. I will have a racist additude.

News flash, there are black, hispanic, asian, and arab people in the military. How do I become racist when A. I have many friends of different races and B. When they become my comrades in battle?

I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black/hispanic/whatever. I've got a project for you, go an ask one, just one, of those arab people in the military what life's been like for them since 911. Or, pop down to the border and ask any hispanic soldier how their "comrades" treat them.

3. I'm a sectarian fascist (What..?)

I'll translate: Someone who does not accept the right of people hold different political views and would happily kick them out of the country. Which is, actually, the origin of the US immigration laws (cf. Emma Goldman)

Listen buddy, this world is doing great with government. I'd love for it to all vanish so we can become one happy anarchist community. Bye bye electricy. Bye bye running water. Bye bye roads. Bye bye TV/Radio/Internet. Bye bye..

I'm not a technophobe and, forgive me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the US had some slight difficulties providing electricity over the last year or so?

That's why I don't like your way of thinking. I am working hard to suceed in America. To live the American dream. Work and live in a peaceful enviroment. Have a good job. have a family. If we don't have a government, all those things are gonna be gone.

Come back to me in 40 years or so and tell me if you're satisfied with that. And, I got news for ya buddy, do whatever the fuck you like in America, I don't really care. Typical merkin with the elevated view of your own importance, I live in London.

Vas.

Good government? Ha! This is the same government that doesn't let us control our own bodies and has used a combo of intellectual property laws and FCC censorship to effectively censor great anime like Gundam SEED. This is the same government that forces all men to sign up for selective service even when there isn't war going on.

I agree with you on the evil's of government. But you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet over the censorship of Gundam SEED (never seen it, but I cannot stand censorship).


I'm working hard to maintain my sanity in a place where sex is effectively considered a sin and the FCC keeps us from watching anything but stupid reality TV.
Just thank your lucky stars that you were not born one hundred years ago>

Actually, it will warp your mind to kill without remorse and rob you of your humanity.

Really? How many veterans, who have actually been involved in hostilities, have you spoken with? You statement above gives the answer as somewhere between none and nobody. I have a family of vets and those who have been in the face of mortal danger and combat are the very ones who have the least thought of resorting to killing. Thay have actually been there and know the difference between make believe and reality. Trust me, they are not remorseless killers.

SHL

Really? How many veterans, who have actually been involved in hostilities, have you spoken with? You statement above gives the answer as somewhere between none and nobody. I have a family of vets and those who have been in the face of mortal danger and combat are the very ones who have the least thought of resorting to killing. Thay have actually been there and know the difference between make believe and reality. Trust me, they are not remorseless killers.

Pre- or post-draft? Professional soldiers are a very different bunch to those who didn't chose to join, and, these days, they go through a very specific and intense dehumanising process. Abu Graib is just one example of this. I'll come back to when I find some of the recent reports on what soldier training involves.

Vas.

Have YOU ever heard of a nation with a government that's fallen apart and is now happily in Anarchy?

Nope, but the amish don't really have a well established government. But the Amish suck. So you're right...but hey, a guy can dream.

S N I P

Anarchism is based on a rather simple rule: Do what you want as long as it doesn't interfere with everyone else's right to do what they want. An anarchist society would exist within that concept and a fluid interpretation of that based on voluntary co-operation. Having no laws does not mean having the right to do whatever you like, abolishing private property doesn't mean people can just take what they like from your house, and so on.

Vas.
The rule, as a concept, is simple. Putting it into practice is not. How would an anacharist society deal with individuals who do not share their view? What would such a society do when someone acts in a way that interferes with the right of another to be secure in their person or personal property? What of the persons who choose to rape, rob, assault and murder?

No matter how you cut it, humans are subject to a wide range of motivations. This makes for a diverse and often contrary bunch. If anarchism became the norm then it antitheses would soon arise. Law would prevail - but it would be the law of survival of the fittest.

SHL

Good government? Ha! This is the same government that doesn't let us control our own bodies and has used a combo of intellectual property laws and FCC censorship to effectively censor great anime like Gundam SEED. This is the same government that forces all men to sign up for selective service even when there isn't war going on.

I suppose you think any government that isn't as bad the USSR or Nazi Germany is good. If they think leaving Gundam SEED uncensored and letting people smoke pot is going to make us kill, then why do they warp people's minds so they will willingly take another's life?



Not all anarchism is primitivist. Many anarchists are very fond of technology.



I'm working hard to maintain my sanity in a place where sex is effectively considered a sin and the FCC keeps us from watching anything but stupid reality TV.
Dude,

Get cable.

SHL

Dude,

Get cable.

Is it better than satellite?

The rule, as a concept, is simple. Putting it into practice is not. How would an anacharist society deal with individuals who do not share their view? What would such a society do when someone acts in a way that interferes with the right of another to be secure in their person or personal property? What of the persons who choose to rape, rob, assault and murder?

Social pressure can be a very powerful force.

two anarchy threads going at once. Letila you are getting more and more popular every day.

Pre- or post-draft? Professional soldiers are a very different bunch to those who didn't chose to join, and, these days, they go through a very specific and intense dehumanising process. Abu Graib is just one example of this. I'll come back to when I find some of the recent reports on what soldier training involves.

Vas.
Actually both. My conversations extend from WWII to the currently serving. I understand the view you espouse and have heard it before. What you are saying requires a generalization of what amounts to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of individuals as a single Borg-like entity. That is just not realistic nor is it the case.

The maladjusted you can always find. My experience is that not one person lost their humanity or became a rabid killer. In fact my experience is that you see a self control and a level of humanity that you generally do not see in the population at large.

The fact that you have to go find reports that sustain your premise rather than comment from a wealth of personal experience should inform the casual reader as to the insupportability of your case.

SHL

My thoughts:

I think that Anarchy is a great concept and works great with a few people. But as the group gets larger and larger, anarchy becomes less and less effective. There will always be those people that attempt to take control (and succeed). There will always be those people who wreak havvok on those who don't deserve it.

(please be aware that i'm open to other points of view, unlike the starter of this thread, so hit me with your opinions, cause mine may change)

Is it better than satellite?



Social pressure can be a very powerful force.

LOL! I have heard from folks who tried satellite that they prefer cable.

Social pressure will not contain criminal behavior then any more than it does now.

SHL

Social pressure will not contain criminal behavior then any more than it does now.

Now, we live in huge cities where there is little sense of community or anything. In addition, the status quo creates a lot of crime. Poverty is created or at least maintained by capitalism. The government has a lot of laws that don't really serve a purpose.

When people get arrested for something stupid like using drugs, they go to jail and then get exposed to other, more dangerous criminals. At the same time, they start to lose their independence. When they get out, they've known only criminals for a long time and have a harder time making their own decisions.

I think that Anarchy is a great concept and works great with a few people. But as the group gets larger and larger, anarchy becomes less and less effective.

You have a point. The traditional manner of expressing that view is somewhat different though. Most anarchists would say as the group gets larger, more effort is required to maintain its integrity, not that anrchy itself is less effective.

Now, we live in huge cities where there is little sense of community or anything. In addition, the status quo creates a lot of crime. Poverty is created or at least maintained by capitalism. The government has a lot of laws that don't really serve a purpose.

When people get arrested for something stupid like using drugs, they go to jail and then get exposed to other, more dangerous criminals. At the same time, they start to lose their independence. When they get out, they've known only criminals for a long time and have a harder time making their own decisions.

I live in New York City. Within the city there are what we call neighborhoods. Within each neighborhood there are varying opportunities for involvement in the community. I don't see your point as valid in NYC. It is an individual choice.

Not all criminals meet in prison. There are ample opportunities to meet and interact while free to roam. Each seeks it's own - so it goes.

There is ample public sentiment and pressure against criminal behavior now. It does not deter someone who chooses to behave in a manner that interferes with the rights and freedoms of others. That is why there are the varying levels of punative steps against one who insists in behaving in a criminal way. You have fines, jail, prison with it's varying levels of incarceration, etc.

The bottom line is it is necessary. Anarchy is not a sustainable state because there will always be those who will choose to use their freedom to inhibit or deny the same freedom and dignity to others.

I wish anarchy would work because it would be a hella better than what we've got now

I live in New York City. Within the city there are what we call neighborhoods. Within each neighborhood there are varying opportunities for involvement in the community. I don't see your point as valid in NYC. It is an individual choice.

And where do you spend most of the day? At work, taking orders.

Not all criminals meet in prison. There are ample opportunities to meet and interact while free to roam. Each seeks it's own - so it goes.

There is ample public sentiment and pressure against criminal behavior now. It does not deter someone who chooses to behave in a manner that interferes with the rights and freedoms of others. That is why there are the varying levels of punative steps against one who insists in behaving in a criminal way. You have fines, jail, prison with it's varying levels of incarceration, etc.

The bottom line is it is necessary. Anarchy is not a sustainable state because there will always be those who will choose to use their freedom to inhibit or deny the same freedom and dignity to others.

Crime certainly hasn't stopped government, but on the other hand, government certainly hasn't stopped crime.

two anarchy threads going at once. Letila you are getting more and more popular every day.

Oi, I started the Anarchist thread, it's not ALL Letila.

Vas.

The rule, as a concept, is simple. Putting it into practice is not. How would an anacharist society deal with individuals who do not share their view? What would such a society do when someone acts in a way that interferes with the right of another to be secure in their person or personal property? What of the persons who choose to rape, rob, assault and murder?

No matter how you cut it, humans are subject to a wide range of motivations. This makes for a diverse and often contrary bunch. If anarchism became the norm then it antitheses would soon arise. Law would prevail - but it would be the law of survival of the fittest.

SHL

Rubbish. The anarchist position is against a hierarchical legal system, not against "law" in general. There will be fundamentally acceptable or unacceptable standards in any society. Now, it's virtually impossible to detail how a future society might exist, but it would be very possible to have in place systems to deal with serious violations of social standards. In a direct democracy, society would have more say in how to deal with violators.

Vas.

My thoughts:

I think that Anarchy is a great concept and works great with a few people. But as the group gets larger and larger, anarchy becomes less and less effective. There will always be those people that attempt to take control (and succeed).

Of course there will be those who attempt to take control, so what's the best plan? Put in place a system where they can run for president? Or remove the entire infrastructure of power - no army to take over, no government buildings to occupy, no presidents to assassinate. We're talking about a direct democratic system, most likely very atomised (small groups feeding into larger groups feeding into overall groups). The opportunities to take over would be minimised to a degree impossible in any other ideology.

There will always be those people who wreak havvok on those who don't deserve it.

True, but there will be more than enough people around who can kick their ass when they try. Anarchists aren't hippies - look at AFA or the Black Bloc.

(please be aware that i'm open to other points of view, unlike the starter of this thread, so hit me with your opinions, cause mine may change)

You're the kinda person we like :-)

Vas.

Oi, if you people are anarchists why don't you stop complaining in your computers and do something? I mean, not doing anything is conforming to the law correct?

My opinion of course... I am not that well learn-ed about Anarchism and I'm always willing to learn.

Okay, first off, no offense to you anarchists, but I'm REEEEALLY getting tired of hearing all this crap thats trying to be shoved down my throat. I have many, many friends (Depite popular believe hehe) and until now, I liked a lot of them. But now more and more of them believe Narchy si the way to go.

"Oh it's cool, no one tells you what to do... No government and stuff...!"

Wow, I am so impressed by your system of non-government. If we start believing in Anarchism, fun time approches us!

No, it doesn't. Now, if I say "When you have anarchism, there is no order." some anarchist is gonna run up and tell me "Why do you believe that! This is Anarchism (Shows me link to stupid website that gives me retarded information I don't care about." One Anarchist told me it's a system of communes.

Okay, seriously folks, we first abolish government. Then instinctly, people will flock to eachother and begin communes? Ain't gonna happen pal.

Without government, there is no order. Money becomes worthless, riots break out, people are killed. No "La-dee-daa I'm pickin' berries in my commune!"

Supposedly everyone is equal in the commune and everyone votes on everything. Yes, I'm sure.

Have YOU ever heard of a nation with a government that's fallen apart and is now happily in Anarchy?

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I'm up for a good debate here. But no stupid posts or flaming.

There are different types of anarchism. For example many construe the idea of complete direct democracy as anarchism as it gives the people the overriding say in every matter. Though political evolution dictates something like that is where we will eventually end up.

Money becomes worthless,
And yet, we have one of the strongest economies around.

There is no system that currently works
facist = dead ww2
communism= has had th wrong leadr aka stalin tokover after lenin an turned ussr into a dictatership
demoracy+captlism= currently they both go hand in hand but there will one day lead to split

anarchrists= to split dffernt idies aint gona happen human naure etc

And where do you spend most of the day? At work, taking orders.



Crime certainly hasn't stopped government, but on the other hand, government certainly hasn't stopped crime.

Letila, you seems to have some very naive thoughts about atleast some things. Like soldiers.

Secondly, if you are that unhappy with how the US is, I suggest you actually do something about it. I think the best solution would actually be to move to Holland.

Anyway, you it seams that you think that beeing "at work, taking orders" is a bad thing. You also seem to think that "the big man" is also a bad thing. This makes me wonder what you makes for a living.

Oi, if you people are anarchists why don't you stop complaining in your computers and do something? I mean, not doing anything is conforming to the law correct?

Anarchism is about maximising freedom. It's a choice everyone makes. If I end up in jail, I've reduced my level of freedom, so conforming to the law is a sensible choice.

However, it is more than possible to "do something" without breaking the law. I'm a union activist, I'm also a human rights journalist. Neither of these things is exclusively anarchist, yet improvements in the lot of workers and advances in human rights bring us closer to an anarchist society.

Vas.

Secondly, if you are that unhappy with how the US is, I suggest you actually do something about it. I think the best solution would actually be to move to Holland.

Again with the sectarian fascism - "I don't accept your right to try and change society, you should leave". Your attitude is that of those who supported the British Empire before the American Revolution, is that of those who opposed abolition of slavery, that of every reactionary who not only refuses to contenance improvements in society, but also stands against the right of others to push for those improvements.

Anyway, you it seams that you think that beeing "at work, taking orders" is a bad thing. You also seem to think that "the big man" is also a bad thing. This makes me wonder what you makes for a living.

Again, not to speak for Letila, but I have found that being an anti-establishment, take no shit, just because you're my boss doesn't mean you can tell me what to do attitude has stood me well in my career path. In fact, it's how you succeed, most capitalists are like that as well - they end up the bosses, people like me end up the union officials.

Vas.

I believe the comment about going to Holland was less "Get the hell outta here, I don't like your opinions!" But more of a comment on Holland being a place you would prefer to live. Obviously if you wish to change were you live now then fine but as much as I admire Anarchism I do not think the people of US or UK would accept it as a system. I suppose it would fail for the same reason Communism and Capitialism do: raw human greed.

By the way I am a socialist and against Anarchism because I think that health services would suffer causing a massive number of deaths. However, oddly enough I would prefer no goverment at all to a small one as conservatives want.

Again with the sectarian fascism - "I don't accept your right to try and change society, you should leave". Your attitude is that of those who supported the British Empire before the American Revolution, is that of those who opposed abolition of slavery, that of every reactionary who not only refuses to contenance improvements in society, but also stands against the right of others to push for those improvements.



Again, not to speak for Letila, but I have found that being an anti-establishment, take no shit, just because you're my boss doesn't mean you can tell me what to do attitude has stood me well in my career path. In fact, it's how you succeed, most capitalists are like that as well - they end up the bosses, people like me end up the union officials.

Vas.

Geez... Letila is whiny about how the US is atm imo. And changing it WILL take time, wiether you like it or not, in either directions. And sorry, we don't live in those revulutionary times that you talk so highly about anymore. Therefor, if Letila want to live in a nation that he/she likes more, I suggest emigrating to anotherone. If you want a fast change, then emigrating is the choice. If you want to change the place you live in, that's fine also. But you better be prepered that it will take some time. You might not even live to see it if it's a major change you want, even if you are succesfull. Conclution, you are very very wrong in saying I am trying to force Letila to leave the US. Why should I? I don't even live there... And honestly, I don't even wanna. And leaving a ship that is sinking isn't such a bad idea really, anyway.

And for the other thing. Well... He/she kicks on both the the workers and the emploers. That made me wonder what he/she does for a living, because kicking on both parts seems... Kinda odd. You on the other hand... I realy don't think someone working in the union should think it's a bad thing beeing "at work, taking orders". If you are, you should really take a thinker why you are in the union actively in the first place.

I believe the comment about going to Holland was less "Get the hell outta here, I don't like your opinions!" But more of a comment on Holland being a place you would prefer to live.

Well, anyone who's been watching recent political changes in Holland might disagree. But still, it's something that infuriates me - "if you don't like it, leave" - it betrays the history of the US, the fundamental basis of its establishment - "if you don't like it, try and change it".

Obviously if you wish to change were you live now then fine but as much as I admire Anarchism I do not think the people of US or UK would accept it as a system. I suppose it would fail for the same reason Communism and Capitialism do: raw human greed.

Well, there's two different things there. Capitalism is based on raw human greed, it's main failing is that, because of that fact, it can never achieve the general social growth predicted by utopian capitalists. That's why every capitalist country has been forced to introduce some socialist elements.

"Communism" on the other hand has never truly failed. Countries like the USSR were not communist by any definition, as they retained hierarchies. Marxism argues that you need to retain the state to move from capitalism to communism, but, the problem has consistently been, that the state has no interest in abolishing itself. A revolution that destroys one state and replaces it with another simply perpetuates the fundamental problem.

By the way I am a socialist and against Anarchism because I think that health services would suffer causing a massive number of deaths.

Why? Do you think the end of the government in the UK, and by extension the NHS, would mean hospitals would close (rather than be taken over by those who work in them), that doctors and nurses would stop working? Ironically, one of the principles behind the reform of the NHS, localising control, is a step towards what would exist in anarchism (the problem is the fact that it's not happening everywhere at once, and by involving private capital, it's part privatisation).

However, oddly enough I would prefer no goverment at all to a small one as conservatives want.

We can agree there :-)

Vas.

Geez... Letila is whiny about how the US is atm imo. And changing it WILL take time, wiether you like it or not, in either directions. And sorry, we don't live in those revulutionary times that you talk so highly about anymore. Therefor, if Letila want to live in a nation that he/she likes more, I suggest emigrating to anotherone. If you want a fast change, then emigrating is the choice. If you want to change the place you live in, that's fine also. But you better be prepered that it will take some time. You might not even live to see it if it's a major change you want, even if you are succesfull.

I don't think anyone is unaware of that fact, but is your argument really that, because things will happen slowly, then activists should relax and be less forceful? As far as the US goes, and I don't live there either, it does appear to have gotten a lot worse in the past four years, which means it could, potentially, get better as quickly (if not reach full blown anarchism). Or, it could get a lot worse very quickly, leading to the atomisation of society and possibly the breakdown of the union, opening up huge prospects for social change in limited areas.

Conclution, you are very very wrong in saying I am trying to force Letila to leave the US. Why should I? I don't even live there... And honestly, I don't even wanna. And leaving a ship that is sinking isn't such a bad idea really, anyway.

Christ, yes it is! Would you really want the arsenal of the US to be left exclusively in the hands of the neocons and their allies?

And for the other thing. Well... He/she kicks on both the the workers and the emploers. That made me wonder what he/she does for a living, because kicking on both parts seems... Kinda odd. You on the other hand... I realy don't think someone working in the union should think it's a bad thing beeing "at work, taking orders". If you are, you should really take a thinker why you are in the union actively in the first place.

I think you should look into the fundamental principles of unionism. The whole point is increasing workers control of the workplace. By rejecting the right of bosses to do and say what they like, I am completely within the spirit of unionism and have been rather successful at it as well. Bosses need to know their place and do what the workers want.

Vas.

I don't think anyone is unaware of that fact, but is your argument really that, because things will happen slowly, then activists should relax and be less forceful? As far as the US goes, and I don't live there either, it does appear to have gotten a lot worse in the past four years, which means it could, potentially, get better as quickly (if not reach full blown anarchism). Or, it could get a lot worse very quickly, leading to the atomisation of society and possibly the breakdown of the union, opening up huge prospects for social change in limited areas.



Christ, yes it is! Would you really want the arsenal of the US to be left exclusively in the hands of the neocons and their allies?



I think you should look into the fundamental principles of unionism. The whole point is increasing workers control of the workplace. By rejecting the right of bosses to do and say what they like, I am completely within the spirit of unionism and have been rather successful at it as well. Bosses need to know their place and do what the workers want.

Vas.

Erm, no? It just seem to me like the person we are talking about isn't really an actevist, but someone that is pretty much whining about that stuff aren't as he/she want it to be. Therefor, moving to Holland or Denmark, where atleast some of his/her believes are meet, seems like a good solution. Tbh, it seems to me that you disrespect people that, rather then trying to change things where he lives now, moves to another place where his believes are better meet Because he prolly thinks there are other things that are higher prioritaded in his life.

No, I prolly wouldn't. And I don't want them in the hands of a Christian guy who, to me atleast, seems to mix up his religius believes in his politics. Nor a Muslim guy or Hindu guy or whatever doing the same. Infact, I don't want weapons of massdestruction in the hands of anyone.

And about the Union issue. When it all comes down, as companies works now, the boss must have a higher saying then the worker. That will mean that if we don't come up with a grander idea how to run a company, the Bosses will ultimatly give the orders and the workers obey them. However, I know very well that the union works for the better of the worker. But a worker can never be on pair with a boss as it is now.

Erm, no? It just seem to me like the person we are talking about isn't really an actevist, but someone that is pretty much whining about that stuff aren't as he/she want it to be. Therefor, moving to Holland or Denmark, where atleast some of his/her believes are meet, seems like a good solution. Tbh, it seems to me that you disrespect people that, rather then trying to change things where he lives now, moves to another place where his believes are better meet Because he prolly thinks there are other things that are higher prioritaded in his life.

No, and I may have overreacted a little, but I do have a huge issue with people suggesting "If you're not happy here, then leave." I've no problem with people moving for whatever reason they like, hey, I left Ireland two years ago for London.

And about the Union issue. When it all comes down, as companies works now, the boss must have a higher saying then the worker. That will mean that if we don't come up with a grander idea how to run a company, the Bosses will ultimatly give the orders and the workers obey them. However, I know very well that the union works for the better of the worker. But a worker can never be on pair with a boss as it is now.

That depends, but I don't work for a corporation, I'm an activist journalist working as a website editor. So, in most cases, I know more about what I do than any boss and am given respect for that (last place I wasn't, I quit).

Vas.

As a worker involved in a unionized shop, as well as an activist in a different union, I concur that you don't have to break the law in order to do something useful. The reason that I'm not an activist in the union at work is that union (the UFCW) is at least somewhat corrupt, whereas the other union (the IWW) is currently not.

Furthermore, a nation doesn't have to "fall into anarchy" in order to become an anarchist society. The people could voluntarily decide to abolish the government, rather than overthrow it. I don't advocate violence anyway. There are examples of anarchist societies, the Inuit for one. Free Soviets would be able to give many more than I can, though.

I can see the reasoning behind the idea of moving someplace else and starting as an anarchist society, I support that to a degree. Perhaps other societies would try to emulate it. But that shouldn't be the only plan. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in the Netherlands, as I don't especially enjoy being around drug and drug users. Admittedly, however, I'm not altogether sure of the intracacies of this particular Dutch law.