NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, can't comment on that thread 'cause it is off topic. So, lets go here!

If a woman is drunk and walking in an alley, or if her judgement is in any other way impaired, does she deserve to be raped?

Well, can't comment on that thread 'cause it is off topic. So, lets go here!

If a woman is drunk and walking in an alley, or if her judgement is in any other way impaired, does she deserve to be raped?

What? Is this one of those, "ask a stupid question and see what happens" posts?

Oh, right...No. She doesn't. Shouldn't leave that out.

No one ever deserves to be raped, not under any circumstances. I'm a believer in very few absolutes, but that is one of them--no one ever has the right to rape another, and no rape victim is ever deserving of the treatment.

umm no.

If you are drunk and in a bar, do you deserve to be beaten, mugged, and murdered?

Under no circumstances should a woman 'deserve' to be raped. Its disgusting, and there is no justification. Women dress in the current fashion, which happens to show a bit of skin. If a man cannot deal with that, he shouldn't be around women. I'm around it a lot and I have no trouble keeping it in my pants. Why can't these other people?

How does the ally relate? Shouldn't a woman have a right to walk where she wants (except into a men's bathroom) without the fear of being raped. I'm also sure that many of us here have been drunk at one point in our life. When you are drunk, do you deserve to be robbed, or killed, otherwise harmed. No? Well, why then would a woman deserve to be raped?

This might seem fairly obvious, but no?

Obviously not. No more than someone driving a nice car down a dangerous street deserves to get carjacked. 100% of the blame lies with the criminal, none lies with the victim.

Stupid "asking for it" arguments are just that, stupid. And yet, I notice you were called a retard for having the audacity to disagree. Don't feel bad, I'm apparently a moron and bullheaded. :)

If goed is a dumbass, and posts stupid shit on NS, then does he deserve to be raped?

Well, glad you found yourself a new thread. It would've been crafty to make a pool, but guess that won't matter. This will probably be my only post here as I hate discussing my side of the argument as no one wants to think what I'm saying through. Anyway, I'll make this short and simple and try straightening you out. I do not think she deserves rape. However, if SHE got HERSELF drunk and got HERSELF stoned and by HER OWN CHOOSING went into that dark alley knowing it would be unsafe (and if she didn't know, I don't see how she breathes), then she whatever happens to her, she should be held partially accountable. If she didn't put herself in that situation would the incident have happened? Be it rape, murder, theivery, a promotion, a million dollars, etc. Let's flip the situation, if she had wandered down that alley and found the million dollars, does she deserve that? It was only fortune that her in that alley at the same time as the money. She didn't earn it. So how can you answer differently when she recieves rape? It was only fortune (bad fortune, but fortune nonetheless) that put the rapist in that alley at the same time she was in there. She didn't earn it. Now, more importantly, the point I was originally making with this is that if this situation happened and she did happen to get pregnant, what she did not deserve was an abortion as she could have avoided the pregnancy by avoiding the rape by avoiding being under the influence by making better decisions. You can not argue that she is in no way accountable for the pregnancy. Also, don't think that I am saying her bad choices make what the rapist did any better or worse. Rape is an unfortunate part of our society and it is here to stay whether or not any one likes it. So why would a woman, knowing full and well that people get raped, put her self in a situation which would make herself an easy target?

The war in Bosnia was considered a rape war because that's what the leader at the time--sorry, can't remember his name--ordered all of his commanders to do, because he knew the strength of the nation, of families, of the whole society resided with women. He knew that if the women were beaten at the most emotional, violating means possible, he would win the war. Some of those women stepped forward about 5 years ago to tell their story, and if any of you have read the accounts of these women, you would feel disgusted and horrified that he used sex as a weapon. Mothers were raped and then saw their children raped, beaten, and killed in front of them...all in order to weaken them, to demoralize them, to 'control' them.
In our daily lives we should be able to walk around without fear of being hurt, raped, beaten, mugged or in other ways violated.
Raping a women in a dark alley is the act of a coward. A woman never 'deserves' to be raped, or to be mistreated in any way, for that matter. Neither do men. It goes both ways.

By the way, still no one is understanding it. I never said that being stupid makes you deserve rape. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you are a dumbass and make stupid posts on NS forums then you deserve to have people call you a dumbass and recieve posts commenting on your stupidity.

Well, glad you found yourself a new thread. It would've been crafty to make a pool, but guess that won't matter. This will probably be my only post here as I hate discussing my side of the argument as no one wants to think what I'm saying through. Anyway, I'll make this short and simple and try straightening you out. I do not think she deserves rape. However, if SHE got HERSELF drunk and got HERSELF stoned and by HER OWN CHOOSING went into that dark alley knowing it would be unsafe (and if she didn't know, I don't see how she breathes), then she whatever happens to her, she should be held partially accountable. If she didn't put herself in that situation would the incident have happened? Be it rape, murder, theivery, a promotion, a million dollars, etc. Let's flip the situation, if she had wandered down that alley and found the million dollars, does she deserve that? It was only fortune that her in that alley at the same time as the money. She didn't earn it. So how can you answer differently when she recieves rape? It was only fortune (bad fortune, but fortune nonetheless) that put the rapist in that alley at the same time she was in there. She didn't earn it. Now, more importantly, the point I was originally making with this is that if this situation happened and she did happen to get pregnant, what she did not deserve was an abortion as she could have avoided the pregnancy by avoiding the rape by avoiding being under the influence by making better decisions. You can not argue that she is in no way accountable for the pregnancy. Also, don't think that I am saying her bad choices make what the rapist did any better or worse. Rape is an unfortunate part of our society and it is here to stay whether or not any one likes it. So why would a woman, knowing full and well that people get raped, put her self in a situation which would make herself an easy target?

You'll try to make this short? You failed.

Raping a sober person is a different situation. Don't argue against me on that premise.

Raping someone who was drugged or did not choose to get themselves drunk, stoned, high, or whatever is a different situation as well. Don't argue against me on that premise.

You'll try to make this short? You failed.

I made it as short as I could and still make all the points necessary for you morons to understand what I'm saying. If it were shorter (and I believe this will happen anyway) certain things would be left unexplained and you morons will continue your moronic out of context arguments against it.

Touche Japaica. I love how you insult me without knowing any of the actual history behind this post. But hey, buddy? Look around a bit more and make an educated post next time. Just a word of advice.

Oh, and Opal, you're the one closing your ears, and you're doing it to yourself.

"If she goes down the alley, then it's her own fault for being raped! I mean, um, NO! She DOESN'T deserve it! Crap, how do I say this without looking bad?"

Raping a sober person is a different situation. Don't argue against me on that premise.

Raping someone who was drugged or did not choose to get themselves drunk, stoned, high, or whatever is a different situation as well. Don't argue against me on that premise.

Who's arguing with you? I'm not.

I am now leaving this thread.

It doesn't matter the circumstance, nobody ever deserves to be raped. Ever. Period.

Agree or disagree?

I made it as short as I could and still make all the points necessary for you morons to understand what I'm saying. If it were shorter (and I believe this will happen anyway) certain things would be left unexplained and you morons will continue your moronic out of context arguments against it.

Whoa. what's with the hate? Calm down watson. I was just joking. A joke. This is the general forum. Joking happens here.

Touche Japaica. I love how you insult me without knowing any of the actual history behind this post. But hey, buddy? Look around a bit more and make an educated post next time. Just a word of advice.

Oh, and Opal, you're the one closing your ears, and you're doing it to yourself.

"If she goes down the alley, then it's her own fault for being raped! I mean, um, NO! She DOESN'T deserve it! Crap, how do I say this without looking bad?"

Touche to you.

Touche Japaica. I love how you insult me without knowing any of the actual history behind this post. But hey, buddy? Look around a bit more and make an educated post next time. Just a word of advice.

Oh, and Opal, you're the one closing your ears, and you're doing it to yourself.

"If she goes down the alley, then it's her own fault for being raped! I mean, um, NO! She DOESN'T deserve it! Crap, how do I say this without looking bad?"

Okay, I'm not leaving quite yet because Goed is still stupid, but I'm starting to think I'm going to have to just accept that.

What you comprehended from my first posts concerning this debate and what I actually said probably are very different. And you continually take things out of context and change the situation and change the stuff I say. If you do not recognize this than it is clear to me that you are definitely not understanding what I am saying.

OPal Isle- have you ever been drunk?

If yes- the woman got drunk of own voalition, true. She wandered into the dark alley on her own - true. But, was she deserving of rape? You stated that she could have avoided the situation by making the 'right' choices. Well, impaired judgement is exactly that, impaired. She, after getting drunk, was not in the state of mind to make those decisions. If she was not in the state of mind to make those decisions, can she be held responsable for what happened afterwards?

In another point- I don't think the woman is ever responsable for the rape, no matter what she position she was in (i.e. drunk). The man is in control of the rape. It is he who is totally accountable for his action, she has nothing to do with it. Now, if the man is responsable for the action, can the woman hold responsability?

And I have read through your argument and thought about it, so don't just blow this off as mindless babble.

You know, you didn't answer my question. In fact, you pretty much just showed up for the main reason of saying "OMG Goed is SOO STUPID! He doesnt understand what I was sayingg!!!"

Whoa. what's with the hate? Calm down watson. I was just joking. A joke. This is the general forum. Joking happens here.

It didn't come off as a joke. I've been reading Goed posts for quite a while now. He is extremely anti-think-things-all-the-way-through-before-rearing-my-stupid-head-strongly.
(that is a long word)

**glances up**

Still no answer to the question. And, what do you know, another post made only to insult me further.

Got a record going?

You know, you didn't answer my question. In fact, you pretty much just showed up for the main reason of saying "OMG Goed is SOO STUPID! He doesnt understand what I was sayingg!!!"

What question?

For what it is worth, here is the quote that sparked the debate between Goed and Opal Isle:

If a women got herself drunk, stoned, high, or whatever and then proceeded to wander down a dark alley in the middle of the night, in my opinion, she has consented to have sex with whatever potential rapist might be out there because it was she who made the decisions to put herself in that situation and would not have been raped if she had not put herself in that situation.

from the thread:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=340040&page=2&pp=15

You be the judge!

You know, you didn't answer my question. In fact, you pretty much just showed up for the main reason of saying "OMG Goed is SOO STUPID! He doesnt understand what I was sayingg!!!"

WE ALL HAVE MORE POST COUNT THAN YOU! WE ARE SUPERIOR! SHUT YOUR TRAP!

EDIT: Directed at Opal Isle. Boy, y'all post fast here!

Have you considered the possibility that we understand what you tried to say, but reject your premise outright? However you try to backtrack now, it is quite clear you were putting forth a despicable "she was asking for it" argument and shifting some of the blame/responsibility for being raped over to the victim. By all that's Holy, I pray you never move north to Missouri. Please stay in Arkansas.

OPal Isle- have you ever been drunk?

If yes- the woman got drunk of own voalition, true. She wandered into the dark alley on her own - true. But, was she deserving of rape? You stated that she could have avoided the situation by making the 'right' choices. Well, impaired judgement is exactly that, impaired. She, after getting drunk, was not in the state of mind to make those decisions. If she was not in the state of mind to make those decisions, can she be held responsable for what happened afterwards?

In another point- I don't think the woman is ever responsable for the rape, no matter what she position she was in (i.e. drunk). The man is in control of the rape. It is he who is totally accountable for his action, she has nothing to do with it. Now, if the man is responsable for the action, can the woman hold responsability?

And I have read through your argument and thought about it, so don't just blow this off as mindless babble.

I don't drink for the simple fact that it causes impaired judgment. I'm not against drinking, but drinking irresponsibly is what I don't like. Aside from that, you are forgetting that I also included being influenced by substance drugs. Drinking to much or using drugs is mainly the bad decision I am talking about.

It doesn't matter the circumstance, nobody ever deserves to be raped. Ever. Period.

Agree or disagree?

Post #17, if you wish to make another reference.

You know, for someone that accuses me of not looking at your posts...well, we'll just leave that sentance hanging ;)

For what it is worth, here is the quote that sparked the debate between Goed and Opal Isle:



from the thread:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=340040&page=2&pp=15

You be the judge!

Now that's just a sick, twisted view. Sorry Opal, but that is totally f***ed up.

Have you considered the possibility that we understand what you tried to say, but reject your premise outright? However you try to backtrack now, it is quite clear you were putting forth a despicable "she was asking for it" argument and shifting some of the blame/responsibility for being raped over to the victim. By all that's Holy, I pray you never move north to Missouri. Please stay in Arkansas.

Except that I'm not viewing the situation from as much of a "she was asking for it" stand point as the anti-me side of this argument would like to think I am.

Post #17, if you wish to make another reference.

You know, for someone that accuses me of not looking at your posts...well, we'll just leave that sentance hanging ;)

If all of my posts have not answered this question for you then I still continue to question your intelligence and ability to reason logically.

EDIT: Which would probably explain why I did not answer the question, despite reading it.

ACK! Edit edit, someone posts fast.

...YOu know, you actually didn't answer the question. YOu used the old "I already DID, you just didn't understand it!" scapegoat.

So simplify it. YOu've called me stupid a number of times, so I obviously couldn't understand what you were saying. Put it into more general terms so those with an intellegence as low as I surely have can understand it.

EDIT: Directed at Opal Isle. Boy, y'all post fast here!

Have you considered the possibility that we understand what you tried to say, but reject your premise outright? However you try to backtrack now, it is quite clear you were putting forth a despicable "she was asking for it" argument and shifting some of the blame/responsibility for being raped over to the victim. By all that's Holy, I pray you never move north to Missouri. Please stay in Arkansas.

agreed. I wonder if opal's point of view would change if he ever went to prison from killing Goed and got raped by a huge, hairy man?

I mean, he's asking for it.

I don't drink for the simple fact that it causes impaired judgment. I'm not against drinking, but drinking irresponsibly is what I don't like. Aside from that, you are forgetting that I also included being influenced by substance drugs. Drinking to much or using drugs is mainly the bad decision I am talking about.

Fair enough, that's your choice. Drugs and drinking have basically the same effect so I simplified it to drinking because its easy and most people can relate.

So they make a bad decision and get wasted/stoned. They wander home through the route they usually take which happens to be through an ally. They get raped. You're saying that they are partially repsonsable because they made the original bad decision. I say the rapist is repsonsable because he couldn't keep it in his pants. Regardless of the choices made by the woman, the man made the ultimate decision to rape her. The woman was nothing more than the object. He was going to rape her wether or not she was sober or wasted.

agreed. I wonder if opal's point of view would change if he ever went to prison from killing Goed and got raped by a huge, hairy man?

I mean, he's asking for it.

I don't think my point of view would change. Killing Goed, no matter what frustration I have for him, would be a bad decision on my part. (Goed pissing me off is a bad decision on his part as he runs the risk of pissing me off to the point of wanting to kill him, therefore he'd suffer the consequence of his stupidity.) I would not want to pay the consequences of murdering Goed, therefore, I would not murder Goed.

I don't think my point of view would change. Killing Goed, no matter what frustration I have for him, would be a bad decision on my part. (Goed pissing me off is a bad decision on his part as he runs the risk of pissing me off to the point of wanting to kill him, therefore he'd suffer the consequence of his stupidity.) I would not want to pay the consequences of murdering Goed, therefore, I would not murder Goed.

Not the point. It was a hypothetical situation.

The point is, is that your asking for it right now. And if you got raped, your point of view would drastically change.

Fair enough, that's your choice. Drugs and drinking have basically the same effect so I simplified it to drinking because its easy and most people can relate.

So they make a bad decision and get wasted/stoned. They wander home through the route they usually take which happens to be through an ally. They get raped. You're saying that they are partially repsonsable because they made the original bad decision. I say the rapist is repsonsable because he couldn't keep it in his pants. Regardless of the choices made by the woman, the man made the ultimate decision to rape her. The woman was nothing more than the object. He was going to rape her wether or not she was sober or wasted.
If it is the route the usually take, it is probably a safe one, eh? Therefore, you've changed the circumstance greatly. However, I never said the rapist did not deserve the blame too. Read my previous post about how Goed pissing me off is a bad decision on his part as it my make me kill him, forcing him to pay his consequences of pissing me off, but I choose not to kill him because I do not want to pay the consequences of murdering him. We'd both be to blame. Him for making me want to kill him. Me for being inhuman enough to want to kill him. And a sober women would probably be considerably harder to rape, but if she was sober and taking a safe route home, it is a different circumstance in which she deserves no blame. However, a large majority of rapes are acquintance rapes anyways.

response opal?

Yeah, I'm so sure you're gonna travel over to California to kill some random guy who pissed you off :p

Not the point. It was a hypothetical situation.

The point is, is that your asking for it right now. And if you got raped, your point of view would drastically change.
What am I asking for? And if I got raped while sober, it would be a different situation than what we are talking about. This situation of me being raped while being drunk or stoned or whatever (because I put myself in that state) would never happen.

Yeah, I'm so sure you're gonna travel over to California to kill some random guy who pissed you off :p
You see, this is the problem with people. They have this mindset that they are safe. You never ever know. How do you know I'm not just that crazy? How do you know I'm not going on vacation to California next week?

I know you already refused to answer it, but I want this official. Just for show ;)

Is there ever a reason that a woman would deserve to be raped?

What am I asking for? And if I got raped while sober, it would be a different situation than what we are talking about. This situation of me being raped while being drunk or stoned or whatever (because I put myself in that state) would never happen.

Your asking for it, because of your extreme, sick, twisted, completely unsympathetic views on the issue of rape.

response opal?

Clearly. Check up one.

I know you already refused to answer it, but I want this official. Just for show ;)

Is there ever a reason that a woman would deserve to be raped?

Absolutely not. Officially.

Your asking for it, because of your extreme, sick, twisted, completely unsympathetic views on the issue of rape.

ASKING FOR WHAT?

I haven't changed the circumstances at all. Any ally can be safe at one point and dangerous at another point in time. And for murdering Goed, I would blame you for not restraining yourself. he can piss you off all he wants, but you should be able to handle yourself in a manner that makes you able to keep a firm hold on yourself. All men should have this abilty as well, the ability to keep it in their pants.

yeah, it got posted while I was writing up that one (in refernce to the response question)

Because most people who are crazy enough to kill someone in cold blood just to piss them off don't have the means to travel across the country.

And anyways, you don't even know where I live, what I look like, where I'll be and who I'll be with at any given time...

Please :p

ASKING FOR WHAT?

Use your head. Asking to be raped.

Let's get this straight. You're wrong. You're sick. You're a downright horrid human being. And your probably rebublican.

Well, glad you found yourself a new thread. It would've been crafty to make a pool, but guess that won't matter. This will probably be my only post here as I hate discussing my side of the argument as no one wants to think what I'm saying through. Anyway, I'll make this short and simple and try straightening you out. I do not think she deserves rape. However, if SHE got HERSELF drunk and got HERSELF stoned and by HER OWN CHOOSING went into that dark alley knowing it would be unsafe (and if she didn't know, I don't see how she breathes), then she whatever happens to her, she should be held partially accountable. If she didn't put herself in that situation would the incident have happened? Be it rape, murder, theivery, a promotion, a million dollars, etc. Let's flip the situation, if she had wandered down that alley and found the million dollars, does she deserve that? It was only fortune that her in that alley at the same time as the money. She didn't earn it. So how can you answer differently when she recieves rape? It was only fortune (bad fortune, but fortune nonetheless) that put the rapist in that alley at the same time she was in there. She didn't earn it. Now, more importantly, the point I was originally making with this is that if this situation happened and she did happen to get pregnant, what she did not deserve was an abortion as she could have avoided the pregnancy by avoiding the rape by avoiding being under the influence by making better decisions. You can not argue that she is in no way accountable for the pregnancy. Also, don't think that I am saying her bad choices make what the rapist did any better or worse. Rape is an unfortunate part of our society and it is here to stay whether or not any one likes it. So why would a woman, knowing full and well that people get raped, put her self in a situation which would make herself an easy target?

OK - At least it is BETTER argued than the first attempt - and I agree that it is stupid to put yourself in that situation - however...

If she finds $1million dollars, she did not earn the money, and it may well belong to someone - perhaps stolen from a bank? As such, if she is a good girl (however bad her judgement in going DOWN the alley) she should try to find out who the owner of the cash is, or turn it over to someone who can.

In the same vein, as much as she is not entitled to benefit from someone else's loss (the bank, etc.) she should not have to suffer from someone else's gain (rapist).

I assume from your posting that you WOULDN'T attempt to find the owner of the money. Well... how wrong that is is debatable, but I still don't see how a young woman should be forced to have a child conceived through such a heinous crime. The only person guilty is the rapist, and all consequences - even the abortion - should rest on HIS head. He is the only one who did anything morally, or legally wrong.

Again, it isn't a crime, nor a sin, to be stupid and/or trusting.

I haven't changed the circumstances at all. Any ally can be safe at one point and dangerous at another point in time. And for murdering Goed, I would blame you for not restraining yourself. he can piss you off all he wants, but you should be able to handle yourself in a manner that makes you able to keep a firm hold on yourself. All men should have this abilty as well, the ability to keep it in their pants.
All men should, but don't. It is err to assume they do. I feel sorry for anyone who assumes this. I am not crazy and I don't want to kill or rape or commit a crime on any one, but if I were that type of person (and you can never know for sure), then Goed put himself in the situation. He made himself a target to me by pissing me off.

Again, it isn't a crime, nor a sin, to be stupid and/or trusting.

Which is why she isn't legally punished.

If you are raped you are a criminal. If you have been raped you are not.....

OK - At least it is BETTER argued than the first attempt - and I agree that it is stupid to put yourself in that situation - however...

If she finds $1million dollars, she did not earn the money, and it may well belong to someone - perhaps stolen from a bank? As such, if she is a good girl (however bad her judgement in going DOWN the alley) she should try to find out who the owner of the cash is, or turn it over to someone who can.

In the same vein, as much as she is not entitled to benefit from someone else's loss (the bank, etc.) she should not have to suffer from someone else's gain (rapist).

I assume from your posting that you WOULDN'T attempt to find the owner of the money. Well... how wrong that is is debatable, but I still don't see how a young woman should be forced to have a child conceived through such a heinous crime. The only person guilty is the rapist, and all consequences - even the abortion - should rest on HIS head. He is the only one who did anything morally, or legally wrong.

Again, it isn't a crime, nor a sin, to be stupid and/or trusting.

Excelent point

...Let the record show that he refuses to answer my question?

Oh, and I'm not actually doing this to piss you off. Or at least, that's not the main reason-I've learned in many debates that it's wise to pay attention to the emotion of the one you're debating, because the angrier he is, the more mistakes he makes.

S'why I'm usually very calm, collected, and very much so in control of my tone when debating. Nothing makes people angrier then refuting them with a smile :)



But I digress.


Your'e right, I do put myself in that position. People do everyday.

But I have hope for mankind in general, so I'll ask again. Opal, is there any reason that a woman should deserve to be raped?

Use your head. Asking to be raped.

Let's get this straight. You're wrong. You're sick. You're a downright horrid human being. And your probably rebublican.

Actually, I try not to label myself with political parties, but in this hypothetical, situational arguement, I find myself at odds with people I usually agree with all the time. I am a person who thinks for himself. Not a party-line quacker.

I am not asking to be raped by posting my opinions about being raped. I'm sober and in the safety of my own home. I am more likely asking to be beaten, DoSed or murdered because I pissed someone off. Rape is not the punishment for stupidity. The punishment for stupidity has to fit the situation.

Well, can't comment on that thread 'cause it is off topic. So, lets go here!

If a woman is drunk and walking in an alley, or if her judgement is in any other way impaired, does she deserve to be raped?

What a lovely welcome to the new forum.

This is such a blatant and unpleasant attempt at stirring up a flame-fest that I can scare believe it.

News just in: The new server has an "ignore" function. Which I've just found works, much to my delight.

So, people, please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Whew. Reading that was quite an experience.
Opal- What exactly are you trying to say? By the quote given from the previous thread it seems that you're saying drunk and drugged idiots can't be raped (using the definition of rape being sex without consent) because they 'consented' by getting into that state initially and then putting themselves in an unsafe enviroment.

Personally I think that's absurd so I assume you simply weren't clear in your initial post...who could possibly think that?
On the other hand I do agree that though the rapist gets 100 percent blame for raping her, the girl still recieves some blame (the amount depending on a situation) for not being smart enought to avoid the situation.
It's all fine and dandy to sit there and commiserate with the rape victim but, logically speaking, the majority of rape victims could have avoided the rape by simply using a little more common sense. No one 'deserves' rape but some people do aid in their own rape due to their idiocy.

Opal, all facts and morals are pointed against you. Be a reasonally acceptable human being and shut the hell up.

Let's get this straight. You're wrong. You're sick. You're a downright horrid human being. And your probably rebublican.

Whoa nelly! I'm a, well I'm not a republican, but I am a conservative who votes republican over 90% of the time and I find his views just as despicable as you do. Let's leave party affiliation out of this one and just agree he's...oh, what's a modern term...whacked.

I know all men don't, if they did we wouldn't be having this debate because there would be no rape. Yet still, it is their responsability, their action, their fault. The woman is an object with no say in the situation.

The use of you and Goed was an illustration. You have attempted to pass of Blame to Goed. True he is annoying you, but if you were to commit a crime against him, it would be your choice. He may have provided an irriatation, but the ultimate choice lays with you, making it your crime.

...Let the record show that he refuses to answer my question?

Oh, and I'm not actually doing this to piss you off. Or at least, that's not the main reason-I've learned in many debates that it's wise to pay attention to the emotion of the one you're debating, because the angrier he is, the more mistakes he makes.

S'why I'm usually very calm, collected, and very much so in control of my tone when debating. Nothing makes people angrier then refuting them with a smile :)



But I digress.


Your'e right, I do put myself in that position. People do everyday.

But I have hope for mankind in general, so I'll ask again. Opal, is there any reason that a woman should deserve to be raped?

I answered your question. Go back and read the very first post I put in this thread. I will double check it to make sure and if it isn't in there I will post my thoughts on that question.

...Let the record show that he refuses to answer my question?

Oh, and I'm not actually doing this to piss you off. Or at least, that's not the main reason-I've learned in many debates that it's wise to pay attention to the emotion of the one you're debating, because the angrier he is, the more mistakes he makes.

S'why I'm usually very calm, collected, and very much so in control of my tone when debating. Nothing makes people angrier then refuting them with a smile :)



But I digress.


Your'e right, I do put myself in that position. People do everyday.

But I have hope for mankind in general, so I'll ask again. Opal, is there any reason that a woman should deserve to be raped?

Any man using a word such as "digress" can't be giving too bad of a standpoint. And I agree with you, goed. Opal is mean.

No, you don't understand.

This is a yes or no question.

Give it a yes or no answer.

Is there any reason a woman should deserve to be raped? Yes or no.

Opal, all facts and morals are pointed against you. Be a reasonally acceptable human being and shut the hell up.
Morals? Whose morals? You can't force me to accept your morals. Think what you want of me but the only way to end this is for you to grow up and stop commenting on the pure evilness of my thoughts and let us agree to disagree. You know nothing about me.

Whoa nelly! I'm a, well I'm not a republican, but I am a conservative who votes republican over 90% of the time and I find his views just as despicable as you do. Let's leave party affiliation out of this one and just agree he's...oh, what's a modern term...whacked.

Sorry. Just tried to put a little humor in their. Guess it didn't go over too well.

Well, glad you found yourself a new thread. It would've been crafty to make a pool, but guess that won't matter. This will probably be my only post here as I hate discussing my side of the argument as no one wants to think what I'm saying through. Anyway, I'll make this short and simple and try straightening you out. I do not think she deserves rape. However, if SHE got HERSELF drunk and got HERSELF stoned and by HER OWN CHOOSING went into that dark alley knowing it would be unsafe (and if she didn't know, I don't see how she breathes), then she whatever happens to her, she should be held partially accountable. If she didn't put herself in that situation would the incident have happened? Be it rape, murder, theivery, a promotion, a million dollars, etc. Let's flip the situation, if she had wandered down that alley and found the million dollars, does she deserve that? It was only fortune that her in that alley at the same time as the money. She didn't earn it. So how can you answer differently when she recieves rape? It was only fortune (bad fortune, but fortune nonetheless) that put the rapist in that alley at the same time she was in there. She didn't earn it. Now, more importantly, the point I was originally making with this is that if this situation happened and she did happen to get pregnant, what she did not deserve was an abortion as she could have avoided the pregnancy by avoiding the rape by avoiding being under the influence by making better decisions. You can not argue that she is in no way accountable for the pregnancy. Also, don't think that I am saying her bad choices make what the rapist did any better or worse. Rape is an unfortunate part of our society and it is here to stay whether or not any one likes it. So why would a woman, knowing full and well that people get raped, put her self in a situation which would make herself an easy target?

Are you really reading?

been funn all. I'm out for the night.

Are YOU? "She doesn't deserve to be raped. Unless..."

Morals? Whose morals? You can force me to accept your morals. Think what you want of me but the only way to end this is for you to grow up and stop commenting on the pure evilness of my thoughts and let us agree to disagree. You know nothing about me.

What I know is that your view on rape is absolutely immoral. And I don't know of any decent person who would agree with you.

Morning here. Sunny england!

Hit Ctrl+F and type in "unless" and you'll find that the only results you get are in your post and this post.

G'night Blarg!

Heh, 2am, I SHOULD be going to bed...but hey, debates like this don't come around ever minute.

And the argument has reached word semantics!

Try a new tactic-one that HASN'T been overplayed. And then read your bolded section as well as the sentance after it again.

MAYBE you'll understand. I'm going out on a limb here.

What I know is that your view on rape is absolutely immoral. (EDIT:ACCORDING TO YOUR MORALS) And I don't know of any decent person who would agree with you.(EDIT:ACCORDING TO YOUR VIEW OF DECENCY)

I fixed your post for you.

Opal, that's extremily clever.

*checks dictionary**

Idiotic! Sorry, meant idiotic. Like you said, I'm stupid, so I get words mixed up at times.

And the argument has reached word semantics!

Try a new tactic-one that HASN'T been overplayed. And then read your bolded section as well as the sentance after it again.

MAYBE you'll understand. I'm going out on a limb here.

Never did I say she deserved what happened to her. I merely said she should be held at least partially accountable. If nothing were to have happened to her then she wouldn't have to be held partially acountable for anything. This is why I comment on your lack of intelligence. Deservance and Accountability are different things.

Why are you all being so mule-headed? The man said that the girl doesn't deserve to be raped but holds some blame (as in fault) for the rape because she was an idiot to get into the situation. Which is true by default since the rape could never have occured if she had not acted idiotically. No one is saying 'bad girl' simply 'stupid girl'. Being stupid isn't a crime so she doesn't hold fault under the law but merely holds fault in a universal sense for the rape having occured since her actions brought it into existence.

Everyone who has posted thus far has been against you. You are wrong. And you are unwilling to be persuaded by any amounts of facts or opinions, thus making you close minded. (a horrible trait)

I'm out. I'll be back in the morning to see where this debate goes.

Why are you all being so mule-headed? The man said that the girl doesn't deserve to be raped but holds some blame (as in fault) for the rape because she was an idiot to get into the situation. Which is true by default since the rape could never have occured if she had not acted idiotically. No one is saying 'bad girl' simply 'stupid girl'. Being stupid isn't a crime so she doesn't hold fault under the law but merely holds fault in a universal sense for the rape having occured since her actions brought it into existence.

FOR CHRIST SAKE! FINALLY! Someone is reading and understanding. Now, I ask that we please just agree to disagree. You're not going to make any progress Goed and neither am I. So just stopping trying to tear me down by making comments on what you apparantly don't understand and I'll stop arguing this whole issue.

Opal, that's extremily clever.

*checks dictionary**

Idiotic! Sorry, meant idiotic. Like you said, I'm stupid, so I get words mixed up at times.

lmao

Everyone who has posted thus far has been against you. You are wrong. And you are unwilling to be persuaded by any amounts of facts or opinions, thus making you close minded. (a horrible trait)

I'm out. I'll be back in the morning to see where this debate goes.

There are no facts.
And not everyone, as someone just posted in agreeance with me.
Additionally, if you want to think of me as close-minded, that is fine as long as you think of yourself as close-minded as well. I only appear to not be open-minded because I don't feel as if anyone (except the new guy) has fully understood what I have said yet.

And by the way, yes, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that and get some sleep. You think it's bad being 2am in Cali...it's 4am here bro and I got work in 14 hours...

And I'M saying that it's not her fault at ALL for being raped.

In a war, civilians are killed and brutalized a lot. Is it their fault that their country went to war, if it was against their consent?

As was stated previously, most rapes are done by actual aquantinces, not by random people. Should I live alone, abandoning all friends because they might attack me?

Bah, I love a good debate, and this one's been pretty nice.

Don't worry 'bout me, I'm working the late shift tomarrow so it's late to bed late to rise anyways.

G'night.

Sorry. Just tried to put a little humor in their. Guess it didn't go over too well.

Naw, my fault. A bit too sensitive I suppose after being accused of trying to starve schoolchildren and make elderly ladies eat cat food. ;)

There are no facts.
And not everyone, as someone just posted in agreeance with me.
Additionally, if you want to think of me as close-minded, that is fine as long as you think of yourself as close-minded as well. I only appear to not be open-minded because I don't feel as if anyone (except the new guy) has fully understood what I have said yet.

We all understand. We know that you feel the victim holds some amount of responsibility, and not full responsibility. We just don't agree with you. But, this is a debate. Disagreements happen. Just continue your point, mr. all-knowing.

to quote you:"And not everyone, as someone just posted in agreeance with me."

you mean not everyone is in disagreeance with you?

And I'M saying that it's not her fault at ALL for being raped.

In a war, civilians are killed and brutalized a lot. Is it their fault that their country went to war, if it was against their consent?

As was stated previously, most rapes are done by actual aquantinces, not by random people. Should I live alone, abandoning all friends because they might attack me?

Heh, the continuance of misunderstandings...

To both of your questions, the answer is no. I'm not explaining. I'll just say that these are different situations and until you understand what I am saying and realize that my argument is EXTREMELY situationual (meaning you change just a little bit about it and my opinion is completely changed), I will not be responding to you.

Naw, my fault. A bit too sensitive I suppose after being accused of trying to starve schoolchildren and make elderly ladies eat cat food. ;)

Wow. But we all have our questionable actions.

I sprayed a kid with a hose who was afraid of water. :D

Then correct me if I'm wrong here.

Woman gets drunk and/or stoned, walks into dark alley. Is raped. Partially her fault.

Yes or no?

We all understand. We know that you feel the victim holds some amount of responsibility, and not full responsibility. We just don't agree with you. But, this is a debate. Disagreements happen. Just continue your point, mr. all-knowing.

to quote you:"And not everyone, as someone just posted in agreeance with me."

you mean not everyone is in disagreeance with you?

I assumed you'd be of high enough intelligence to assume the "is in disagreeance with me," especially as it was clearly a response to "everyone in this thread is against you"

Heh, the continuance of misunderstandings...

To both of your questions, the answer is no. I'm not explaining. I'll just say that these are different situations and until you understand what I am saying and realize that my argument is EXTREMELY situationual (meaning you change just a little bit about it and my opinion is completely changed), I will not be responding to you.

You will not be responding to him? Now that's a little close minded. Not to mention childish, don't you think?

I just wanna add how funny it is that we're on page 7, when a few people thought this was a short "idiotic" post.

Then correct me if I'm wrong here.

Woman gets drunk and/or stoned, walks into dark alley. Is raped. Partially her fault.

Yes or no?

She choose to put her mind in an altered state? If so, yes.

I'm in a strange country for 3 months where I don't speak the language... I'm a young female university student... should I be constantly petrified that if I walk down the alley between my residence and the trainstation that I'm going to get jumped/mugged/raped? While the male student who is also here may be worried about getting mugged, but surely not raped...

I assumed you'd be of high enough intelligence to assume the "is in disagreeance with me," especially as it was clearly a response to "everyone in this thread is against you"

I was simply trying to make it clear.

It is 4 AM and I am tired of feeling like I'm not understood. (It is possible to feel like you understand without really understanding mind you.)

I just wanna add how funny it is that we're on page 7, when a few people thought this was a short "idiotic" post.


Ok. I was wrong. Opal is the idiot.

She choose to put her mind in an altered state? If so, yes.

And that's where I disagree with you. I believe that she is still purely a victim, and that ALL blame and ALL fault should be placed on the person who raped her.

It is 4 AM and I am tired of feeling like I'm not understood. (It is possible to feel like you understand without really understanding mind you.)

...Just like it's possible to feel like others don't understand when infact it is impossible for you to tell if others completely understand you. :D

I'm in a strange country for 3 months where I don't speak the language... I'm a young female university student... should I be constantly petrified that if I walk down the alley between my residence and the trainstation that I'm going to get jumped/mugged/raped? While the male student who is also here may be worried about getting mugged, but surely not raped...

Because of the title, I'm...assuming this is hypothetical and you arn't in a strange country and whatnot?

Dear, just travel with friends. That's a good answer for a lot of problems.

I'm in a strange country for 3 months where I don't speak the language... I'm a young female university student... should I be constantly petrified that if I walk down the alley between my residence and the trainstation that I'm going to get jumped/mugged/raped? While the male student who is also here may be worried about getting mugged, but surely not raped...

If you will notice, the argument I am making is 100% situational and I am not going to sit here 24/7 telling people when they should or should not worry about being raped/mugged/murdered/etc. Use your brain and make smart decisions. Also, worrying about being rapped/mugged/etc. is different then what we are actually talking aboutl.


---this is my last post for the night, seriously...people you hate have to sleep too---

You can't just abandon your country. It's not stupid to stick with your country even when they're doing something you don't agree with. What would be stupid is living in DC or New York right now and anyone who dies in a terrorist attack who had enough money to leave the city I would say holds partial fault (in a Universal sense once again) for their own death. You are free to disagree or even change my mind but at this point that's my stance on it. Third world countries are a whole different ball game since most of their citizens don't have the ability to just pick up and move while many first world citizens do.

And that's where I disagree with you. I believe that she is still purely a victim, and that ALL blame and ALL fault should be placed on the person who raped her.

See, opal? We understand you. We just wholeheartedly dissagree.

And that's where I disagree with you. I believe that she is still purely a victim, and that ALL blame and ALL fault should be placed on the person who raped her.

Then we've reached the end of this debate. You are on that side of the fence. I am on this side. Just as long as you don't try changing the situation and taking my words out of context, I am fine with ending it here.

See, opal? We understand you. We just wholeheartedly dissagree.

You don't fully understand me as you keep trying to change the situation and say things like I am asking to be raped because I have an opinion of my own.

You can't just abandon your country. It's not stupid to stick with your country even when they're doing something you don't agree with. What would be stupid is living in DC or New York right now and anyone who dies in a terrorist attack who had enough money to leave the city I would say holds partial fault (in a Universal sense once again) for their own death. You are free to disagree or even change my mind but at this point that's my stance on it. Third world countries are a whole different ball game since most of their citizens don't have the ability to just pick up and move while many first world citizens do.

umm...are you sure your posting in the right topic. Or am I just not understanding.

No really, I'm asleep. Stop being so anti-me so I can stop defending myself. If you still want to talk about rape, that's fine, but we've agreed on my situation so don't bring it up and make me defend it any more.

He's responding to something I posted earlier.

umm...are you sure your posting in the right topic. Or am I just not understanding.

I'm not really fully understanding that either, but at least it's moving off me. If you want to hate on me, wait til I come back in a few days. (I'm really busy next few days.)

You don't fully understand me as you keep trying to change the situation and say things like I am asking to be raped because I have an opinion of my own.

You are unsympathetic towards the victim. Your opinion is just plain immoral, from most of the world's standpoint.

So I guess this argument is closed, with Opal coming out as ignorant.

Ugh. I'm a slow typer, by the time I repy to one post there are ten others that make my one post obsolete. Hence confusing people, sorry Japaica.
Goed I'm not saying she isn't 100 percent victim. She is, she didn't deserve anything that happened to her but that doesn't change the fact that she holds a fault in the larger scheme of things for being in the situation in the first place. That doesn't take away any of her 'victimness' but it merely clarifies that you can escape the run of the mill victim scenario by simply using your brains.
A girl who's house is broken into and raped is no different victim wise than the drunk/drugged girl is who got raped walking through the alley. One just merely had more opportunity to avoid the situation and holds more univeral 'fault' for it.

Never did I say she deserved what happened to her. I merely said she should be held at least partially accountable. If nothing were to have happened to her then she wouldn't have to be held partially acountable for anything. This is why I comment on your lack of intelligence. Deservance and Accountability are different things.

They are very different things - however, you originally stated that the woman CONSENTED to sex by putting herself in the situation. Consenting is ANOTHER thing entirely.

She is accountable for putting herself in peril - but:
1) What does this accountability entail? That she brought the rape on herself? That's not quite right - she could also have made it through unharmed. As she could have NOT been raped in the situation, she did not bring it on... but rather raised her risks. Does this require her to take everything that comes with it, with no assistance or personal damage limitation?

If she'd been shot instead, we'd still say she raised the risks, but having medical intervention to limit her further suffering wouldn't be in question - I doubt you'd be saying "Oh, well, she's accountable for having gotten shot, even if she doesn't deserve it. Thus, she brought it on herself, and doesn't deserve to have medical help."

2) She in NO WAY consented to sex - and I assume you are taking that back as having been over the top?

Just trying to clarify your position, as it has changed markedly from the first to the last.

Again I suggest that if the raped woman had an abortion, the rapist is at fault. The woman never consented.

A girl who's house is broken into and raped is no different victim wise than the drunk/drugged girl is who got raped walking through the alley. One just merely had more opportunity to avoid the situation and holds more univeral 'fault' for it.

Wrong!! The fault of rape always lies 100% with the rapist. To say "because she was drunk/drugged means she is partially to blame because it made the situation less avoidable" is like saying "because she was drunk/drugged the rapist is partially not guilty/to be exused since he was provoked by the prospect of an easy victim". This is obviously too stupid to take serious. The later because under no circumstances is rape acceptable. So, drugged/drunk or not is totally irrelevant. Universal wise or not.

Rape....as in having sex with a woman when she has unauthorised it can take place in many different scenearios. some less obvious than others. for example:

A woman is drunk and meets a sobre man. she has consulted to having sex with him in that state (unprotected and drunk) and the have sex. the day after when she is sobre she can't remember having sex and assumes that the man raped her. it is taken to the courts and the man gets sent to prison for the incident.

would you class this as right and lawful? You can't just assume that rape is solely the mans fault and the woman has to not give consent to having sex. after all a woman can also rape a man (i know i'm going to get lots of questions on this and i'll leave out the gory deatails) there is certain ways a woman can arouse a man without the man having any say in the matter (i guess you know the rest).

A man can also rape a man. is this anymore bad than a man raping a woman or a woman raping a man???

A woman is drunk and meets a sobre man. she has consulted to having sex with him in that state (unprotected and drunk) and the have sex. the day after when she is sobre she can't remember having sex and assumes that the man raped her. it is taken to the courts and the man gets sent to prison for the incident.

This is not rape. So, obviously it is unjust.

Mind you, I was talking about rape and I can't see how your example invalidates my statement that it is always the rapist who is to blame for 100% for the rape.

You can't just assume that rape is solely the mans fault and the woman has to not give consent to having sex. after all a woman can also rape a man

When it comes to rape the argument "the rapist was provoked" is non valid. That's what "self-control" is for. Again, I'm talking about rape here, not about cases where an individual (and yes, I am fully aware that a men can be raped as easily as a woman) pretends to have been raped.

A man can also rape a man. is this anymore bad than a man raping a woman or a woman raping a man???

Of course not.

A woman is drunk and meets a sobre man. she has consulted to having sex with him in that state (unprotected and drunk) and the have sex. the day after when she is sobre she can't remember having sex and assumes that the man raped her. it is taken to the courts and the man gets sent to prison for the incident.

This is rape. the woman is convinced she didn't consult to it and there is nothing that the man can do.

rape: having sex without one party consulting to it

there is hardly going to be any witnesses to this incident

This is rape. the woman is convinced she didn't consult to it and there is nothing that the man can do.

rape: having sex without one party consulting to it

there is hardly going to be any witnesses to this incident

This is what you originally said:

A woman is drunk and meets a sobre man. she has consulted to having sex with him in that state (unprotected and drunk) and the have sex.

I take it that the "consulted" meant "consented".

So, that was NOT rape. The fact that the woman latter forgot that she had given her consent, thought at a later date that she was raped, doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the guy in your example was convicted for rape.

Your example, Belarus 2, is a very extreme one. I doubt it that there are many women who forget agreeing to have sex despite having been plastered out of their mind at the time. But even if this does happen, and probably it does, this does not invalidate my statement that the only one guilty of rape is the rapist, period.

Actually, in most places it would be rape, as the woman was in a state where she could not legally give consent, just like she couldn't sign a contract, buy a house, or even get a tattoo.

However, this is neither here nor there. This topic is hardly "family friendly" and has more than its fair share of flaming and baiting, and is now locked.