NationStates Jolt Archive

You heard me - stupid!

It seems like half the people who post here are leftist "commies" and the other half are rightwing "fascists". In my humble world view, both views are about as stupid as each other.

It's swinging voters, like myself, who make the world function at all. People who are set in their ways and vote for the same party time and again, no matter what their current platform is, or who the candidate is, might as well just be replaced with trained chimps who can punch out a ballot.

Is it really that radical a concept that you way all parties for their merits, instead of propagating the old stereotype "I vote for the radical banana party because my father voted for the radical banana party, just like his father before him, and his father before him". Worse still, this propogates the two party system - and both parties grow fat and lazy because they know if they don't get in at this election, there's a 50/50 chance to win next time.

I urge people - before you vote, go out and read what each candidate and party stands for. Don't just emerge from under your boulder just to grunt and tick the same box every time.

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double post

I agree with you entirely. I have voted for different parties over the years based on who I think will provide the best government. I have voted for one party in Federal elections and the opposing party in state elections for that reason.

Good point, the two-party system is just a bit too firmly implimented for me. I would prefer an open style of elections where all candidates that wish to run are given equal time on media outlets. Couple this with complete openness of all candiate records and we can learn the truth about all of our candidates. I hold a social libretarian/economic socialist view point because its what I believe in. I'd vote (if I were old enough) for the candidate that most closly represented that.

um...its not the radicals and reactionaries that are responsible for the two party system. that comes straight out of the first-past-the-post voting system.

I would argue that Far Left viewpoints are not stupid, but rapid implementation of Far Left thought is, because it leads straight to dictatorship. Do it slowly, mmkay?

Slowly or not, it still leads to that natural end. Extreme leftism requires an omnipotent goverment.

You heard me - stupid!



You're as radical as they are!!

Slowly or not, it still leads to that natural end. Extreme leftism requires an omnipotent goverment.

You forget anarchism...

facsist...or communist
fascist...or communist
fascist...or communist

AHHHH I CAN'T DECIDE

*implodes and just becomes a democrat*

Meadow Party forever! Bill the Cat in 2004!

(Please let there be others old enough to remember the genius of Bloom County)

Reporter: "Candidate John Glenn claims to have the right stuff... what does your candidate offer?"

Opus: (pause) The Weird stuff.

New Furbaria,
I would very much like to hear what you think are the general beliefs and positions on the extreme Left, and Right, I dont believe that you have a clear understanding.
Other wise, you would realize the absurdity of your statement.

facsist...or communist
fascist...or communist
fascist...or communist

Yep :) This drives me crazy every once in a while. I'm leftist and proud of it. And much more towards left than U.S. Democrats (as i assume, most of you are Americans?) but I'm certainly not a communist. There's a huge difference. But every time I have a political argument with some true capitalist they start to yell at me: You commie! Do you want to move to Soviet Union!? Is this a proper argument? But I have also noted that many leftist start this same insane accusing: You fascist pig!
Please stop using these terms all the time. I think North Korea and Kuba are the only communists countries left. Fascist? Well, noone claims to be one.

That’s right. I believe you 100%. I have a little saying that goes “the more extreme you are, the more easily offend you are. The more easily offended you are, the less worthy you are of leadership.” The first time I said something like that some far right or left, I forget which, immediately went and proved me right.

I think North Korea and Kuba are the only communists countries left. Fascist? Well, noone claims to be one.

Only one country in history has claimed to be of a Fascist & or Totalitarian regime and that was Italy in the larger portion of the first half of the 1900's. Even Germany during that time considered itself opposed to the established ruling class under the former Kaiser along with all further class structure and spoke against the bourgeois, even if they did let survivals of Capitalism exist as privatized entities in line with the state later on during wartime. Today people consider Fascism simply Jingoism, but it was actually the theory of historical appearance to eternal proliferation of government & class corporatism instead of broad economy corporatism.

I have to agree with you on both sides being about as stupid as the other. I also say they are both about as selfish and uncaring as each other. Neither one really cares about anything but shoving their own personal agendas on everyone. To me there are the same even spewing the same rhetoric *my opponent is evil, blah blah*.

Centrists of the World Unite!

Sorry couldn't help but plug that...I should note that the existance of a two party system is a bit historical in the U.S. (After all the Republicans are actually a 'third' party that became a major party in the mid 19th century)

But I degress...both sides spout retoric and reasoning that is false. And I usually choke on half of either party platform. Maybe because I actually anaylize both sides to the same standards of emperical results to political theory or maybe it's because I'm trained to analyze things in terms of how they function or don't function in terms of a goal. Or maybe I see the goal as solving the problem with minimal downside (or the optimal solution) rather than attempt a solution that furthers (what I consider a secondary or even tertiary goal) an increase in political power of one ideology versus the other.

Anarcho-communism isn't stupid. It's a good alternative to the government, which has failed to live up to it's promises.

hmmm nice way to generalize

How in the world can you pretend to know what everybody on this forum does in their lives and voting practices?

no... that's not "stupid" at all :rolleyes:

That’s right. I believe you 100%. I have a little saying that goes “the more extreme you are, the more easily offend you are. The more easily offended you are, the less worthy you are of leadership.” The first time I said something like that some far right or left, I forget which, immediately went and proved me right.

You bast... actually, as a real far leftist, I agree. In fact, I'd go further, ANYONE who wants to lead has proved their unsuitability for leadership. Actually, I'd go even further than that, ANYONE alive is unsuitable for leadership.

No Gods, NO MASTERS.

Vas.

Far left and far right political views are both stupid

Ineloquent but accurate.

Depends on what you consider 'extreme'

Anything out of the centre? If that is the case, I disagree.

If you mean totallarian states, I would have to agree.

There is one point that I would like to consider. Being middle of the road never changed anything.

Depends on what you consider 'extreme'

Anything out of the centre? If that is the case, I disagree.

If you mean totallarian states, I would have to agree.

There is one point that I would like to consider. Being middle of the road never changed anything.

But it allows you to sit smugly as society's balance tends to rest where you are, completely missing the point that the extremes make up the balancing act.

Vas.

You heard me - stupid!

It seems like half the people who post here are leftist "commies" and the other half are rightwing "fascists". In my humble world view, both views are about as stupid as each other.

It's swinging voters, like myself, who make the world function at all. People who are set in their ways and vote for the same party time and again, no matter what their current platform is, or who the candidate is, might as well just be replaced with trained chimps who can punch out a ballot.

Is it really that radical a concept that you way all parties for their merits, instead of propagating the old stereotype "I vote for the radical banana party because my father voted for the radical banana party, just like his father before him, and his father before him". Worse still, this propogates the two party system - and both parties grow fat and lazy because they know if they don't get in at this election, there's a 50/50 chance to win next time.

I urge people - before you vote, go out and read what each candidate and party stands for. Don't just emerge from under your boulder just to grunt and tick the same box every time.

I'm 'far-right,' but I'm not a damned fascist. My hatred of fascism is as great as my hatred of communism.

I'm 'far-right,' but I'm not a damned fascist. My hatred of fascism is as great as my hatred of communism.

As far as I'm concerned, any of those crazy, FCC worshipping nationalists is a fascist.

Yep :) This drives me crazy every once in a while. I'm leftist and proud of it. And much more towards left than U.S. Democrats (as i assume, most of you are Americans?) but I'm certainly not a communist. There's a huge difference. But every time I have a political argument with some true capitalist they start to yell at me: You commie! Do you want to move to Soviet Union!? Is this a proper argument? But I have also noted that many leftist start this same insane accusing: You fascist pig!
Please stop using these terms all the time. I think North Korea and Kuba are the only communists countries left. Fascist? Well, noone claims to be one.

There are a lot more communist countries than that. Zimbabwe, Vietnam, Laos, China, etc...and there are many countries which are technically not 'communist,' but which are ardently pro-Marxist, use communist tactics, and advance the cause of communism (Libya, Iran, Venezuela, Brazil, etc.). Moreover, regardless of the phony 'collapse' of the USSR, Russia and all its former satellites are still communists. (Read Anatoliy Golitsyn's "New Lies For Old" and "The Perestroika Deception" for more details)

As far as I'm concerned, any of those crazy, FCC worshipping nationalists is a fascist.

What's "FCC?"

studies have shown that most swing/independent voters are morons who dont know the issues and vote based only on watching emotionally manipulative campaign ads that are all based on gross distortions

You bast... actually, as a real far leftist, I agree. In fact, I'd go further, ANYONE who wants to lead has proved their unsuitability for leadership. Actually, I'd go even further than that, ANYONE alive is unsuitable for leadership.

No Gods, NO MASTERS.

Vas.
I can agree with that in many occurrences. :D

studies have shown that most swing/independent voters are morons who dont know the issues and vote based only on watching emotionally manipulative campaign ads that are all based on gross distortions
Or they’re the type of person who votes for the better leader, and not the better policy. Policies are nothing compared to the quality of the person behind them. And in this upcoming election I must admit that I’m scared.



Somebody hold me.
*Cowers in fear and begins to shake* :(

There are a lot more communist countries than that. Zimbabwe, Vietnam, Laos, China, etc...and there are many countries which are technically not 'communist,' but which are ardently pro-Marxist, use communist tactics, and advance the cause of communism (Libya, Iran, Venezuela, Brazil, etc.). Moreover, regardless of the phony 'collapse' of the USSR, Russia and all its former satellites are still communists. (Read Anatoliy Golitsyn's "New Lies For Old" and "The Perestroika Deception" for more details)

Crap. Total crap. Venezuela and Brazil were far closer to the US than the USSR during the cold war and did not recieve Soviet military equipment. Libya was indeed a client state, I agree, but Iran was certainly not-the Ayatollah was vehemently anti-communist and Iran did not recieve Soviet military equipment. Islamic fundamentalism cannot be compared to communism. It could be argued that the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was a preparation to destabilise Iran that went horribly wrong for them.

Please explain what you mean about the USSR and the former pact countries being still communist, because I do not have the time to track down those books.

studies have shown that most swing/independent voters are morons who dont know the issues and vote based only on watching emotionally manipulative campaign ads that are all based on gross distortions

Please cite these studies, because I find it hard to believe that any serious study would be undertaken to determine whether a section of the voting population are morons.

I find it curious that a person who starts a thread about fringe politics assumes that there is a divine two-pronged model, and that those two prongs are facism and communism...

and also assumes that a facism is (by nature) far right, and communism is far left.

curiouser and curiouser

Hmm...there were some generalisations in the original post - but I don't like people who take an ideological approach to politics myself. I'd say I was a moderate left-winger - but only very moderate. Very views on different issues are quite jumbled, but overall I'm slightly more liberal than conservative. I don't have anything against conservatives though, and can see their point of view a lot of the time.

You have to be pragmatic. Politics is the art of the possible. Sods law will always screw up any grand theoretical plan you have for changing society. Either that or you end up with something tyrannical.

I think ideologies can also limit people intellectually. Some people always seem to be trying to fit their opinions into some box or other. You know - 'I'm a green anarachist so I believe this this and this...and I'm certain that I'm right'. Or 'I'm a socialist and this is exactly the way I believe the country should be run, down to the last letter'. Real life is full of circumstances that are always changing and this limits the success that any ideology could ever have.

Thanks all for your replies - I will address each post directed to me as soon as I get the time, hopefully later today.

Just briefly, though, I was not labelling all left wingers communists and all right wingers fascists - that's why I used the "quotation marks" - it was an overgeneralization to emphasize a point...

Yet, again, my immediate response is "wow." The so called "communist states" that many of you have been referring to were never communist. They were/are facist states. None of these states have even been socialist, let alone communist. Their economic systems would most accurately be described as government controlled capitalism.

um...its not the radicals and reactionaries that are responsible for the two party system. that comes straight out of the first-past-the-post voting system.

I agree.
Our political system is what creates such polarization. It's ridiculous to have to pick between one huge clod of ideals and another clod of ideals, or else be branded centrist and "moronic."

Most people are stupid.

Anyway, people see things easiest in a black/white paradigm. Us versus them. Left and right. Liberal and conservative. Freedom versus equality. Big versus tall. Local versus away. Man versus woman. Where there is more than one faction, the average human mind will associate with one, and then there'll be the 'one' and all the rest will be a second 'unit' all lumped together.

Then it's easy. Us is good, them is bad. Or vice versa. Etc.

In reality, its not so simple. There isn't really a "left" or "right," not really, in politics, unless you happen to mean the different sides of the French parliament, where the terms come from. Moreover, the concepts are so stereotyped as to be utterly meaningless...

...and therein lies the meaning. It's supposed to be simple, brainless dichotomy. Religion, psychology embrace it. Politics embrace it. Everyone does. Apparently, it's natural... though of course, defecating in the same place you eat is natural too, 'natural' doesn't automatically mean 'good.'

When you have to brainwash a lot of people you have to appeal to this dichotomy. That's why the favorite topic, if you're liberal, is conservatives. Or vice versa. Helps reinforce that dichotomy and makes it easier for people to associate with their adopted mental clan stereotypes.

So there isn't really a left or right, except when a person says "I'm left" and then argues how they perceive they should. Thus they create the left, by recreating it. Humans are a lot like bacteria, or maybe RNA or DNA.

Retarded. No one really knows how to argue politics without clinging to dichotomy. If they do, they're sure as hell not succeeding in an American style democratic political environment.

Yet, again, my immediate response is "wow." The so called "communist states" that many of you have been referring to were never communist. They were/are facist states. None of these states have even been socialist, let alone communist. Their economic systems would most accurately be described as government controlled capitalism.

Yes, very true...however, the traditional definition of far-left would be adequate to describe the controlled economies.

I'm kinda curious as to what is considered "center of the road". What stances would you consider neither left nor right?

A fairly large level of public spending while leaving the economy to free market forces.

OK, some replies:

You're as radical as they are!!

Hmm, I worded that badly - I meant to emphasize the topic title, not accuse the reader of being stupid. Apologies for that one.

New Furbaria,
I would very much like to hear what you think are the general beliefs and positions on the extreme Left, and Right, I dont believe that you have a clear understanding.
Other wise, you would realize the absurdity of your statement.

This one is complicated. I'll mull it over and give you a decent answer.

hmmm nice way to generalize

How in the world can you pretend to know what everybody on this forum does in their lives and voting practices?

no... that's not "stupid" at all :rolleyes:

Again, oversimplification for dramatic effect - I could have worded it better, I agree.

What I meant was, based on many of the comments on this forum, there seem to be more extremists (left and right wing both) than there are "centrists". I am basing this purely on comments made here - I would not presume to know how people vote. But it does appall me how few votes indepenant parties and candidates get compared to the "almighty two".

A fairly large level of public spending while leaving the economy to free market forces.
Thing is, to be able to afford a large level of publix spending, the government impedes the free market.

I'm 'far-right,' but I'm not a damned fascist. My hatred of fascism is as great as my hatred of communism.

Sounds a bit like my grandpa - he waxes lyrical about what a bastard Hitler was and everything he stood for was evil, then in the next breath complains about all the "bloody immigrants" coming into the country and how white folks whould stick with their own kind. :)

j/k - I don't know you at all, so I am not saying this is what you are like.

I also realise the fact that I put "fascist" and "communist" in parenthesis to emphasize the fact that they were more euphamisms than statements of fact was maybe a bit cryptic - sorry.

Thing is, to be able to afford a large level of publix spending, the government impedes the free market.

Arguably yes, but I meant as in that there is no central ministry of production that dictates what will be built, when, and how, and none or few state-owned enterprises.

I'm kinda curious as to what is considered "center of the road". What stances would you consider neither left nor right?

Center of the road is me. Anyone to the left of me is a subsersive commie and anyone to the right is a radical conservative. ;)

What makes me me?

I am against more gun control laws.
I am against the continued slaughter of innocents under the BS guise of "choice"
I am all for the death penalty, but I won't lose any sleep if they ban it.
I think the KC Royals damn well better win a World Series again sometime soon.
I think the reason the trees in Missouri lean west is because Kansas sucks.
I...eh, forget it. That's enough.