NationStates Jolt Archive

At least, according to some Texans it is.

[Courtesy of the Washington Times]

President Bush and the Republican Party in his home state of Texas are being criticized by Democrats on the touchy issue of whether America is a Christian nation.

At its convention in Austin, the Texas Republican Party voted to reaffirm a plank in its platform that disputes "the myth of the separation of church and state." The plank celebrates the United States as "a Christian nation."

An official of an organization affiliated with the Democratic National Committee castigated the action. "This is part and parcel of who the GOP and their conservative base are," said David Harris, spokesman for the National Jewish Democratic Committee. "While this is nothing new, it certainly raises to new excesses the lengths this Republican Party is going to in order to tear down the wall separating church and state.
"It is a wall deeply cherished by American Jews — and many other Americans for that matter," Mr. Harris added.

A prominent Democrat called on Mr. Bush to repudiate the Texas party's action. "The Texas party has been off the charts for a long time," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. "Frankly, I would hope President Bush would repudiate that. We are calling on him to do so." Mr. Zogby said the Texas conservative platform "goes against what Bush has said and flies in face of what he has stood for, but it reflects more a policy of [U.S. Rep.] Tom DeLay and some of those hard-liners on the Christian right."

The Texas Republican Party plank says, "Christian Nation — The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States of America is a Christian nation, and the public acknowledgment of God is undeniable in our history. "Our nation was founded on fundamental Judeo-Christian principles based on the Holy Bible. The party affirms freedom of religion, and rejects efforts of courts and secular activists who seek to remove and deny such a rich heritage from our public lives," it states.

The response from the national Republican Party yesterday was far different from the one it gave in 1992, when it pressured then-Mississippi Gov. Kirk Fordice to recant his "Christian nation" statement. Health and Human Service Secretary Tommy G. Thompson, then the governor of Wisconsin, was one of the few nationally known Republicans at the time to defend Mr. Fordice's right to say what he said. Yesterday, the Republican National Committee refused to criticize, let alone undo, what the Texas party had done at its June 4 convention.

RNC Communications Director Jim Dyke said the national party "doesn't control the state parties' platforms. Each state party determines what their state platform will say." But Mr. Dyke deemed it "important to point out we are a country and party of religious freedom and to some people that means a Christian nation, to some a Jewish nation, to others a Muslim nation and to still others — who don't practice religion at all — an agnostic nation. The fact is that all of these things together are what make us a great nation." Mr. Dyke noted: "We are, though, a country founded on Judeo-Christian values and that's why you see 'In God we trust' on our currency and why we sing, 'God bless America.' "

Christian conservatives long have been influential, both in positions and numbers, within the Texas Republican Party. "The Republican GOP of Texas is driven by the grass roots from the bottom up, not the top down," party member Tim Lambert said. "What's in our platform is the position of the state party and the delegates of that convention but, I believe, the vast majority of Texans and probably most Americans." Party Chairwoman Tina J. Benkiser also stood by her state party's plan. "Our platform is an acknowledgment that most of our nation's Founding Fathers had a deep faith in God. We believe that people of faith should be welcomed in the political process today as they were 200 years ago," Mrs. Benkiser said.

She said the state party's platform is virtually identical to the one it has had for the past decade. During that time, she noted, Republicans "have gained over 900 offices in Texas, including all 29 statewide offices, a record number of congressional and state senate seats, and the first state house majority in 130 years. Clearly, the people of Texas recognize that the Republican Party is the mainstream party that best represents their beliefs and values."

Christians make up 82 percent of the U.S. population, Jews 1 percent and Muslims less than 1 percent, with atheists, agnostic and those citing no preference making up 13 percent, according to a Pew Research Council survey of 2,002 adults conducted in 2002.

Sigh. All the nutters are in the states.....

America has a Christian heritage, I'm paraphrasing but John Adams said that the republic he helped to found was fit only for a moral and religious peoples. Congress used Federal money at the beginning of this country to print Bibles to reach the Indians. Church services were held in the Capitol building as well as other federal buildings. And by the way, the phrase "seperation of church and state" cannot be found in the Constitution, it can be found, however, in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association.
I can go on and on about the Christian heritage of this country and if you want to go by the straight statistics you quoted above this is a Christian nation, we just don't act like it. We have sacrificed our founding principles at the altar of political correctness and feel good politics where nobody can be offended because there is no absolute truth.

Although Jesus said that his kingdom was of the next world and not this one. Doesn't that make the religious rights attempts to influence goverment a)essentially secular and b)heretical.

America has a Christian heritage, I'm paraphrasing but John Adams said that the republic he helped to found was fit only for a moral and religious peoples. Congress used Federal money at the beginning of this country to print Bibles to reach the Indians. Church services were held in the Capitol building as well as other federal buildings. And by the way, the phrase "seperation of church and state" cannot be found in the Constitution, it can be found, however, in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association.
I can go on and on about the Christian heritage of this country and if you want to go by the straight statistics you quoted above this is a Christian nation, we just don't act like it. We have sacrificed our founding principles at the altar of political correctness and feel good politics where nobody can be offended because there is no absolute truth.George Washington, the first president of the US of A, was not a christian. He was a Deist. But this, like the rest of your arguement, is irrelevant. A country can have whatever religious principles it likes in its history, but the fact is that there are not religious principles enshrined in the law. It simply does not happen.

If you look at the remit for the National Cathedral in Washington DC, if you look on LaFayette square, you will see how they were very, very careful to ensure that the cathedral was open without any restrictions placed on faith or denomination, how it was designed specifically to be inclusive, not Christian.

America is a free country. Not some goddamned theocracy. seperation of church and state is one of the most fundamental elements of our country's ideology. Having a monogonous religion would be stupid and just plain backwater. Save religious persecution for the southeast asia and the middle east; not the great, free countries like the US or Canada.

America is a free country. Not some goddamned theocracy. seperation of church and state is one of the most fundamental elements of our country's ideology. Having a monogonous religion would be stupid and just plain backwater. Save religious persecution for the southeast asia and the middle east; not the great, free countries like the US or Canada.

Amen.

America is a free country. Not some goddamned theocracy. seperation of church and state is one of the most fundamental elements of our country's ideology. Having a monogonous religion would be stupid and just plain backwater. Save religious persecution for the southeast asia and the middle east; not the great, free countries like the US or Canada.

Here Here, Kuro Yume! I'm a Jew, and frankly, this whole idea is offensive to the nth degree to me. No western nation should have a professed theology - I think the only country this has ever worked in has been....Tibet? Burma? And not even a theology but Christianity?!! HAHAHA Oh, I'm sure that'll make the struggle for gay rights scads easier, not to mention the hard time Muslims and others get for their religious beliefs. Does separation if church and state really have to be in the constitution? Or is it as my philosophy teacher always said: "So plainly necessary as to be intutitively obvious." There were Jews and others in the original 13 colonies, people. Christian theology is also an exclusive theology. So, as the saying goes:

"Centuries of Christian love have decimated the populations of Muslims, Jews, Pagans and Homosexuals. I think we've been loved to death."

And it DOES say in the constitution for the poster above: "...The state shall establish no religion.."

Unfortunately Bush already has said things that make him sound more like the Ayatolla and the Pope; if we are to believe him, which no one should, God talks to him in the same way that God talks to the other two.

Ah yes, lets just rewrite history to fit our worldview shall we, denying that our founders were not Christians. George Washington was a Christian, take any close look at his writings and letters and you'll be able easily see that, I'd have some quotes for you but unfortunately I'm at work and all my research on this topic is at home (I had to give a speech on this in public speaking class this past semester).

another reason to dislike Republicans and specifically the Bush regime.

Ah yes, lets just rewrite history to fit our worldview shall we, denying that our founders were not Christians. George Washington was a Christian, take any close look at his writings and letters and you'll be able easily see that, I'd have some quotes for you but unfortunately I'm at work and all my research on this topic is at home (I had to give a speech on this in public speaking class this past semester).It doesen't alter the fact that what your advocating goes directly against the words of Jesus.

Lets misquote the Constitution as well, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Congress is an institution of the Federal government, if State decides it wants to have a non-denominational prayer in its schools, or post the Ten Commandments(only the whole basis for our civil law) in its classrooms then so be it, let them. The Tenth Amendment reserves all powers not expressly given to the Federal governement to the states.

America is a free country. Not some goddamned theocracy. seperation of church and state is one of the most fundamental elements of our country's ideology. Having a monogonous religion would be stupid and just plain backwater. Save religious persecution for the southeast asia and the middle east; not the great, free countries like the US or Canada.

I am in the mood to be pedantic, I do agree with you of course.

One must consider, though, that the definition of faith is that one believes in a system of values, morals and beliefs. Since you evidently believe in the separation of church and state and the freedom of religion; could not America be considered a Theocracy because its government system and its citizens are evangelized by a system of beliefs, a faith if you will that is advocating such freedoms?

"....nor prohibit the worship thereof..."

Our nation was founded on a Judeo-Christian foundation. We don't have a state religion because we believe in Freedom of Religion.

I respect all religions! It doesn't matter if your a jew, christian, muslim, hindu, or budist. What I do have a problem with is people and organizations telling where and how to worship.

The ACLU is using the courts to take down Christian symbols like the nativity from public lands, Crosses in national parks that were set up as memorials to those who died for our country, and the Ten Commandments, given to the Jews by God BTW, from our courthouses. The ACLU has no problem however, that the Quran (muslim holy book I might add) to be read in public schools, having the menora on public grounds. These are religious symbols of the muslim and jewish faiths. If they truely want to take out religious symbols, then they must do the same for all faiths and not just the Christian Faith.

I'm a Presbyterian myself! I will pray where ever I want, whenever I want, however I want to do it. No Judge is going to tell me that I can't pray in public! No Judge is going to tell me that I can't speak of religion to other people. That is in the 1st Amendment of the US Consitution under Freedom of Speech and Religion as well as Freedom of Expression.

Yes America was founded as a Christian Nation but Christianity is not our state religion. All religions are to be respected in our nation. They too are protected under the Freedom of Religion part of the US Constitution.

"...The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy, a policy worthy of imitation.

All posess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support...

May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, (and here's where you need to pay attention) WHILE EVERY ONE SHALL SIT IN SAFETY UNDER HIS OWN VINE AND FIG-TREE, AND THERE SHALL BE NONE TO MAKE HIM AFRAID."

- George Washington, A letter to the Hebrew Congregation in New Port, Rhode Island, 1790.

I'm also a member of the ACLU, and in my opinion, ALL religious symbols need to be removed from public places. I'm a very devout Jew - but I'm a reform Jew. I'm extremely liberal, and there should be nothing pressed on anybody. The USA was not founded as a CHRISTIAN nation!! It was founded as a NATION with no religion. But, to play devils advocate. One might ask, "Why can there be a menorah, but not a nativity?" One answer, that I don't subscribe to, might be: "A Christian can pray in a synogogue, but a Jew cannot pray in a church. Celebration of Chanukkah is compatible completely with Christianity. It does not defile their beliefs in any way, since Jews only worship a G-d. The same G-d that Christians worship. A Jew, however, does not believe in Jesus as the messiah, therefore to recite a Christian prayer would not be compatible with Jewish belief. However, every Christian can be assured that reciting the Kaddish or Sh'ma was something Jesus did in his time."

To the nation of "The Holy Word", I'm gonna have to ask you specifically chapter and verse from one of the gospels where Jesus said that it was wrong to express your faith in public or maybe you just misunderstood the Great Commission in Matthew 28 where Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

In regards to the quote from one of George Washington's letters, I do believe that the question at hand was whether or not he was a Christian or not, nothing in that quote suggests that George Washington was not a Christian. The quote itself is an admirable one and I don't think any Christian would disagree with it, but in fact we are not living up to that statement by Mr. Washington. Not when you are not allowed to pray in a school. There was a case in Missouri where a elementary school student was suspended for saying a prayer of blessing over his lunch to himself. Not when you are labled a religious bigot for daring to say there are absolute truths in this world.

"The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion."

-- George Washington & John Adams, in a diplomatic message to Malta.


Enough said :rolleyes:

I'm also a member of the ACLU, and in my opinion, ALL religious symbols need to be removed from public places. I'm a very devout Jew - but I'm a reform Jew. I'm extremely liberal, and there should be nothing pressed on anybody. The USA was not founded as a CHRISTIAN nation!! It was founded as a NATION with no religion. But, to play devils advocate. One might ask, "Why can there be a menorah, but not a nativity?" One answer, that I don't subscribe to, might be: "A Christian can pray in a synogogue, but a Jew cannot pray in a church. Celebration of Chanukkah is compatible completely with Christianity. It does not defile their beliefs in any way, since Jews only worship a G-d. The same G-d that Christians worship. A Jew, however, does not believe in Jesus as the messiah, therefore to recite a Christian prayer would not be compatible with Jewish belief. However, every Christian can be assured that reciting the Kaddish or Sh'ma was something Jesus did in his time."

You need to check your history Parsha. Our nation was founded under a Judeo-Christian heritage. The Declaration of Independence mentions God in it. If you don't believe me, look it up. As for the Jews not believing in the Messiah, I already knew that. I have taken a religions class in which I learned about the worlds major religions.

The reason there can't be a nativity but a menorah is because the Nativity is a Christian Symbol. A Menorah represents diversity. To me this is hypocritical. If your going to ban religious symbols from one religion then do so for all religions. That is being equal. If you allow one symbol from one religion then allow symbols from other religion. No one religion is as important as the next one.

Back to our founding. Most of the 2nd Continental Congress where God fearing men. Of the 55 men that formed the Constitution, 52 where active members of their church. Most of our laws are based on the Jude-Christian Faith. Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.

It must be ok then to use Federal money to support religion only when you are defaming it, cause that is what has happened. The National Endowment for the Arts which receives the Federal taxpayers money supports putting a crucifix in a glass jar, filling it with urine and sealing the lid, calling that art. Oh somebody contact the ACLU cause Federal money was just used to buy a crucifix, but oh never mind cause we only bought it because we were going to use it for sacriledge and call it art. On the other hand, you might want to call the ACLU to defend this piece of sacriledge in court, cause if pornography can be called "art" then this can too. What a convoluted position the ACLU takes, thoroughly anti-Christian.

"I'm also a member of the ACLU, and in my opinion, ALL religious symbols need to be removed from public places. I'm a very devout Jew - but I'm a reform Jew. I'm extremely liberal, and there should be nothing pressed on anybody. The USA was not founded as a CHRISTIAN nation!! It was founded as a NATION with no religion. But, to play devils advocate. One might ask, "Why can there be a menorah, but not a nativity?" One answer, that I don't subscribe to, might be:"

WHICH I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO...Read before you comment on it. As to what people keep saying about "Christian values." What the hell?! They're just common sense stuff. There's nothing uniquely Christian about the laws. The reason we have Christianity permeated into these is because it's adaptation of English Common Law, which was heavily Christian. Hence, swearing on the bible and all that.

America has a Christian heritage, I'm paraphrasing but John Adams said that the republic he helped to found was fit only for a moral and religious peoples. Congress used Federal money at the beginning of this country to print Bibles to reach the Indians. Church services were held in the Capitol building as well as other federal buildings. And by the way, the phrase "seperation of church and state" cannot be found in the Constitution, it can be found, however, in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association.
I can go on and on about the Christian heritage of this country and if you want to go by the straight statistics you quoted above this is a Christian nation, we just don't act like it. We have sacrificed our founding principles at the altar of political correctness and feel good politics where nobody can be offended because there is no absolute truth.

How exactly do the listed statistics show that this is a Christian nation? Just because a majority of Americans are Christian doesn't make this a Christian nation, any more than the fact that the majority of Americans are white make this a white nation. The majority of Americans are overweight, and we don't label ourselves a fat nation. The majority of Americans will divorce at some point in their life time, but we don't call ourselves a divorce nation.

For somebody who claims to know about the founding fathers, you show surprising lack of understanding of their designs. They specifically engineered our republic to avoid the tyranny of the majority that you seem to advocate, and the men who played the biggest part in designing our government were, in fact, NOT CHRISTIAN. Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and more...all had very negative things to say about both Christianity and about allowing religion to have a central role in government. They also had nice things to say about religion, true, and most were diest or Unitarian, but to claim the founders were Christian is patently untrue. To claim the US was founded on Christian values is equally silly, since only 3 of the 10 Commandments are at all recognized by our laws, and those 3 are laws shared by pretty much every major religion in the history of the world.

Please kiddies, read a book that's not the Bible from time to time. America was never and is not a "Christian nation." Yes, there are many Christians here, but the most fundamental values of the American republic forbid us to label this a Christian nation. As patriots, we should all oppose such a label, regardless of our personal religious beliefs.

To all the non-Christians out there...

I know it's easy and (especially) tempting to think that the Christians who speak the loudest and most non-sensically are representative of all Christians. I can assure you that they are not. They certainly hold a lot of influence, but there is a growing body within the Christian community working to bring our brothers and sisters back to both reason and Truth. The Holy Word here seems to be among this group. If it's your thing, pray for our success.

"The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion."

-- George Washington & John Adams, in a diplomatic message to Malta.


Enough said :rolleyes:

So goood to have teh Steph here! Hey you still have your Modhood :-o : *confused*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

anyway,

So yeah the founders were mainly Christian... big whoop, that doesnt mean that they wanted a Christian nation. Everything seems to point to them wanting Religion kept out of govt. affairs.

oh well all know that murder and theft was okay before Christinaity right? *rollseyes*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

also.... does jolt have a lot of these hiccups? I thought we came to Jolt to get away from lag time and such.

To all the non-Christians out there...

I know it's easy and (especially) tempting to think that the Christians who speak the loudest and most non-sensically are representative of all Christians. I can assure you that they are not. They certainly hold a lot of influence, but there is a growing body within the Christian community working to bring our brothers and sisters back to both reason and Truth. The Holy Word here seems to be among this group. If it's your thing, pray for our success.

AMEN.

As a Christian, I should point out that the founding fathers were not all united in their beliefs, and even when they had a Christian upbringing, many were very careful to separate their personal beliefs from what they thought was best for the US. As to whether the US is a "Christian nation" because its founding fathers were Christian -- here are some views of the founding fathers on our "Christian" nation.

Thomas Jefferson's views:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21

"The proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:546


Views of several founding fathers:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~checkma/questions.html

George Washington's views on Religion:
http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/jb/nation/relig_1

Thomas Paine's views on religion:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/paine-deism.html

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." -- http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm

A number of these men were properly "Deists" rather than "Christians" and rightly considered a person's religion to be his own business -- not anything to be imposed on anyone.

To the nation of "The Holy Word", I'm gonna have to ask you specifically chapter and verse from one of the gospels where Jesus said that it was wrong to express your faith in public or maybe you just misunderstood the Great Commission in Matthew 28 where Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

In regards to the quote from one of George Washington's letters, I do believe that the question at hand was whether or not he was a Christian or not, nothing in that quote suggests that George Washington was not a Christian. The quote itself is an admirable one and I don't think any Christian would disagree with it, but in fact we are not living up to that statement by Mr. Washington. Not when you are not allowed to pray in a school. There was a case in Missouri where a elementary school student was suspended for saying a prayer of blessing over his lunch to himself. Not when you are labled a religious bigot for daring to say there are absolute truths in this world.If I had to guess, I would say that "The Holy Word" was referring to Jesus' words in Matthew 6:5-8, which reads, in part "when you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I tell you, they are having their reward in full."

There's another bit along these lines in another one of the gospels, but I don't remember where it is off the top of my head. The point Jesus seemed to be making is that you need to look at the motivation of people who act outwardly holy--are they doing it because they believe they're bringing glory to God or because they're trying to look good in front of others. Remember, Jesus preached a great deal about modesty as well.

As far as that Missouri case is concerned, you're going to have to provide some backup for it--a link to a news story or something--because my experience has been that those cases generally have a lot more to them than meet the eye. If a student were suspended for saying a private prayer, then the school would be in a very actionable position. Were the student making a scene and being disruptive, however, then the school has more latitude in the matter. Let's see the whole story first.

Lets misquote the Constitution as well, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Congress is an institution of the Federal government, if State decides it wants to have a non-denominational prayer in its schools, or post the Ten Commandments(only the whole basis for our civil law) in its classrooms then so be it, let them. The Tenth Amendment reserves all powers not expressly given to the Federal governement to the states.

Sorry but you don't understand the establishment clause.

Tangent: It is interesting that you are basically saying the feds should not tell the states what to do and yet you were arguing that an amendment is needed for marriage since a few rogue states are allowing gay marriage.

Back to the case:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Says that the goverments and that is state and federal will be religious neutral.

The hanging of the 10 commandments or crosses in public state funded schools is a goverment endorsement of christianity.

That violates the establishment clause. Notice there are many private schools that hang the 10 commandments and have crosses and the big bad aclu is not knocking on their doors.

Sorry but I don't buy the christians being persucuted crap. A local town goverment ran into problems with crosses on public property. They countered with using symbols of other religions as well.

Guess what? The Christians didn't like that......

If I had to guess, I would say that "The Holy Word" was referring to Jesus' words in Matthew 6:5-8, which reads, in part "when you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I tell you, they are having their reward in full."

There's another bit along these lines in another one of the gospels, but I don't remember where it is off the top of my head. The point Jesus seemed to be making is that you need to look at the motivation of people who act outwardly holy--are they doing it because they believe they're bringing glory to God or because they're trying to look good in front of others. Remember, Jesus preached a great deal about modesty as well.

As far as that Missouri case is concerned, you're going to have to provide some backup for it--a link to a news story or something--because my experience has been that those cases generally have a lot more to them than meet the eye. If a student were suspended for saying a private prayer, then the school would be in a very actionable position. Were the student making a scene and being disruptive, however, then the school has more latitude in the matter. Let's see the whole story first.

OT: Could you respond to my reply in the "Top 5 Reasons For Hating/Loving Bush" thread?

Anyway, I don't think the U.S.A. is a Christian nation. I think it's just a plain old nation, and it's sad that people have been so indoctrinated with the idea that the U.S.A. is and should be a Christian nation. Bottle beat me to the punch in dealing with the statistic, so I don't really have much more to add here...

Lets misquote the Constitution as well, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Congress is an institution of the Federal government, if State decides it wants to have a non-denominational prayer in its schools, or post the Ten Commandments(only the whole basis for our civil law) in its classrooms then so be it, let them. The Tenth Amendment reserves all powers not expressly given to the Federal governement to the states.

Congress is a federal as well as state institution. What that phrase then implies is that Congress on both the federal and state level shall not make any laws respecting religion.

This also excludes the fact that the consitution is the supreme law of the land (set down in Marbury v. Madison) and that all states are beholdent to the consititution regadless of what they wish to do. So, if a state makes a law in conflict with the consitution, then the law is unconsitutional and void. This also came to a head with the nullification crises, where, once again, the constitution was given preference over the states' laws.

As a side note, there are only three of the ten commandments in our civil law system - do not kill, do not steal, do not lie under oath. That's a 30%. In school, a 30% is a failing grade so I think that the claim that the 10 commandments is the basis of our civil system is a bit overblown.

EDIT: funny bumpersticker I saw : How dare you assume I'm Christian.

COMPLETE SIDETRACK: Just read in On Writing by Stephen King: "Killing for Peace is like fucking for chastity"

You need to check your history Parsha. Our nation was founded under a Judeo-Christian heritage. The Declaration of Independence mentions God in it. If you don't believe me, look it up. As for the Jews not believing in the Messiah, I already knew that. I have taken a religions class in which I learned about the worlds major religions.

The reason there can't be a nativity but a menorah is because the Nativity is a Christian Symbol. A Menorah represents diversity. To me this is hypocritical. If your going to ban religious symbols from one religion then do so for all religions. That is being equal. If you allow one symbol from one religion then allow symbols from other religion. No one religion is as important as the next one.

Back to our founding. Most of the 2nd Continental Congress where God fearing men. Of the 55 men that formed the Constitution, 52 where active members of their church. Most of our laws are based on the Jude-Christian Faith. Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.

Speaking of needing to check up on his history. So do you.

The Declaration:

"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"

That sounds a little generic. In fact if I had to guess I would say it was more Celtic then Christian.

Finally, the other reference:
"that they are endowed by their Creator"

If it was Christian it would have said "the Creator"

Sorry but the Declaration does not endorse Christianity.

[QUOTE}Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.[/QUOTE]

Ahh the myth that will not die! The Puritans! *sigh*

1) Jamestown was up and running a year before they arrived.
2) Holland was once the safehaven for the oppressed. There you could find the Belgion Wollon, the heugonauts(sp), and the English Seperatists.
3) The seperatists were what we called the Puritans.
4) The Puritans had Relgious freedom in Holland! They left because they did not want to be absorbed into Dutch Society.
5) When the Puritans landed they hard practiced Religious freedom in fact they set up a quasi-theocracy where anybody would be severly punished if not expelled from the colony if they dare challenged the eldars
6) The Puritans didn't even follow the Bible. They rourtinly punished and executed the Native Americans for violating their laws(you can find that in their writings). They were also grave robbers as they wrote about digging up the dead and raiding Native American burial grounds since they were "gifts from god" You can also find this in their writings and diaries.....

Finally, the Christan persecution garbage. Sorry but the Menorah does not get preferential treatment over a cross. At least not in this state.....

You need to check your history Parsha. Our nation was founded under a Judeo-Christian heritage. The Declaration of Independence mentions God in it. If you don't believe me, look it up. As for the Jews not believing in the Messiah, I already knew that. I have taken a religions class in which I learned about the worlds major religions.

The reason there can't be a nativity but a menorah is because the Nativity is a Christian Symbol. A Menorah represents diversity. To me this is hypocritical. If your going to ban religious symbols from one religion then do so for all religions. That is being equal. If you allow one symbol from one religion then allow symbols from other religion. No one religion is as important as the next one.

Back to our founding. Most of the 2nd Continental Congress where God fearing men. Of the 55 men that formed the Constitution, 52 where active members of their church. Most of our laws are based on the Jude-Christian Faith. Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.

Speaking of needing to check up on his history. So do you.

The Declaration:

"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"

That sounds a little generic. In fact if I had to guess I would say it was more Celtic then Christian.

Finally, the other reference:
"that they are endowed by their Creator"

If it was Christian it would have said "the Creator"

Sorry but the Declaration does not endorse Christianity.

[QUOTE}Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.[/QUOTE]

Ahh the myth that will not die! The Puritans! *sigh*

1) Jamestown was up and running a year before they arrived.
2) Holland was once the safehaven for the oppressed. There you could find the Belgion Wollon, the heugonauts(sp), and the English Seperatists.
3) The seperatists were what we called the Puritans.
4) The Puritans had Relgious freedom in Holland! They left because they did not want to be absorbed into Dutch Society.
5) When the Puritans landed they hardly practiced Religious freedom in fact they set up a quasi-theocracy where anybody would be severly punished if not expelled from the colony if they dare challenged the eldars
6) The Puritans didn't even follow the Bible. They rourtinly punished and executed the Native Americans for violating their laws(you can find that in their writings). They were also grave robbers as they wrote about digging up the dead and raiding Native American burial grounds since they were "gifts from god" You can also find this in their writings and diaries.....

Finally, the Christan persecution garbage. Sorry but the Menorah does not get preferential treatment over a cross. At least not in this state.....

*aheam*

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

-Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. The important part is bolded so it's extra easy to see and be proven wrong by ;)

Oh, and I provided the entire article, so nobody can bitch about that :D

Ah yes, lets just rewrite history to fit our worldview shall we, denying that our founders were not Christians. George Washington was a Christian, take any close look at his writings and letters and you'll be able easily see that, I'd have some quotes for you but unfortunately I'm at work and all my research on this topic is at home (I had to give a speech on this in public speaking class this past semester).

Ah, so because most of our founding fathers were Christian, that means we are a Christian country? They were all also rich, white males, yet does this mean that the USA is a rich, while, male country? Oh, wait, I forgot... we're talking about the Republican party. I guess they would think it is.

As for the arguement that the nation was based on Christian values, this is only partially true. The Bible is blatantly anti-capitalist, yet we as a nation are capitalist. To those of you who would like to see an established state religion - get over yourselves.

Our founding fathers were devout Christians who based this nation on the Bible? Oh my. Well, lets get some opinions from the Founding Fathers themselves, eh? Arranging in alphabetical order. Why? Because I like it.

Lets start with John Adams, one of my favorites.
John Adams (1735-1826)
Second President of the United States (1797-1801)

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756, explaining how his independent opinions would create much difficulty in the ministry, in Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 88, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

The Treaty of Tripoli
Signed by John Adams

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)


Alright, so Jonny is a bit hard-core. I'm sure friendly Mr. Franklin will be the very opitime of a good Christian!

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
American public official, writer, scientist, and printer who played a major part in the American Revolution

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (attributed: source unknown)

Um...alright. Thomas Jefferson will prove the US is a Christian nation!

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The third President of the United States (1801-1809)

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 (capitalization of the word god is retained per original; see Positive Atheism's Historical Section)

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), quoted from Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings (1984), p. 347

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the Danbury Baptist letter. This wording was several times upheld by the Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause: Reynolds (98 U.S. at 164, 1879); Everson (330 U.S. at 59, 1947); McCollum (333 U.S. at 232, 1948)

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Richard Rush, 1813

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 1:545

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

Damn it Tommy, shut up! You're not helping me prove to these nice people that Christianity was built into our nation by the Founding Fathers! In fact, you're being down-right hostile towards religion in general, and Christianity in particular!

I can only hope that James Madison, Father of our Constitution, can save us!
After all, it is that document that is the supreme law!

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
-- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Thats not a good start, James....

I have ever regarded the freedom of religious opinions and worship as equally belonging to every sect.
-- James Madison, letter to Mordecai Noah, May 15, 1818, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

The general government is proscribed from the interfering, in any manner whatsoever, in matters respecting religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and who are not, ministers of the gospel.
-- James Madison, 1790, Papers, 13:16

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.
-- James Madison, letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., April 1, 1774, quoted from Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 37, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect ... Equal laws, protecting equal rights, are found, as they ought to be presumed, the best guarantee of loyalty and love of country; as well as best calculated to cherish that mutual respect and good will among citizens of every religious denomination which are necessary to social harmony, and most favorable to the advancement of truth.
-- James Madison, letter to Dr. De La Motta, August 1820 (Madison, 1865, III, pages 178-179), quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty.
-- James Madison, veto message, February 21, 1811. Madison vetoed a bill to fund "pious charity" organized by the Episcopal Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and the District of Columbia, saying that a project comparable to the modern "Charitible Choice" scheme of the George W. Bush administration gives religious societies legal agency in performing a public and civil duty

And smacking down a faith-based initiative! How dare you!


Because the bill in reserving a certain parcel of land in the United States for the use of said Baptist Church comprises a principle and a precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."
-- James Madison, veto message, February 28, 1811. Madison vetoed a bill granting public lands to a Baptist Church in Mississippi Territory. Quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom. Also in Gaillard Hunt, The Writings of James Madison, Vol. 8, (1908), p. 133.

Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which pervades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there can ot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest.
-- James Madison, spoken at the Virginia convention on ratification of the Constitution, June, 1778, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief


AAAAAHHHH!!! Washington, you are my only hope!

George Washington (1732-1799)
The first President of the United States (1789-1797)

Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a mode of Worship which they do not profess.
-- George Washington, to John Hancock, then president of Congress, expressing opposition to a congressional plan to appoint brigade chaplains in the Continental Army (1777), quoted from a letter to Cliff Walker from Doug Harper (2002) ††

Well. Screw me. I guess the Founding Fathers weren't religious nuts. How about that.

nice job Ocarinas, Thanks!

Case closed Christians.

Please save this to a text file for later use as this comes up all to often and this will hopefully keep them from spouting their ignorance over and over.

This topic has come up time and time again... and rarely does the religious right concede defeat. There has been, on this as well as other topics, a concerted attempt to rewrite history, and it will happen again in the future.

Many of the Founding Fathers were deists. A particularly large chunk are identifiably Unitarian by creed; typical late 18th century Unitarian beliefs do not happen to coincide with the typical evangelical definitions of Christianity in the slightest. Washington was nominally Anglican (a career as an officer in the British army required it), but apparently had some significant disagreements with the church and rarely attended later in life, although Mrs. Washington often did. Franklin, Adams, and Jefferson were a very influential trio of Unitarians, to say the very least upon the topic.

I would warn those quoting many that there appear to be a number of fabricated quotes of the founding fathers floating around the place, as a number of unsubstantiated quotes have been claimed from time to time on this topic that no source material can be found for... and seem to fall contrary to quotes found in documented source material from the era.

Also, let it be most carefully noted that:

1.) "God" is not a term upon which christians - self-defined or defined under the standards of others - have a monopoly on within the English language. Not even in capitalized form.

2.) The persecution by the Puritans is interesting, as is their gradual fall within the colonies. Few places within the colonies were as intolerant on the basis of religion as Massachusetts, and every year saw Massachusetts get more tolerant and less Puritan in law, culture, and practice.

I would warn those quoting many that there appear to be a number of fabricated quotes of the founding fathers floating around the place, as a number of unsubstantiated quotes have been claimed from time to time on this topic that no source material can be found for... and seem to fall contrary to quotes found in documented source material from the era.



I've done my best to get the appropriate sources for the above quotes, and, if anyone were to find that any of the above are untrue, mis-quoted or improper in any way, I'd like to request you tell me, so I may remove them.
Thank you.

Ocarinas, brilliant.

Oh man, bravo! That was awesome

One of the founding fathers(sorry, i cant remember which) said the bible is the fulcrum on which the laws of this nations should be based upon...hmm sounds like a christian to me.

One of the founder fathers, who is unnamed, said the bible is good.

Therefore we are a christian nation? Sounds iffy to me.

One of the founding fathers(sorry, i cant remember which) said the bible is the fulcrum on which the laws of this nations should be based upon...hmm sounds like a christian to me.

You really ought to remember who... particularly as that may actually be one of a persistent handful of fabricated quotes. Whole books have hinged their arguments on poor foundations.

There has been enough time for even pure fabrications to become "established" legend and lore about the founding fathers. It only takes a few years of hearsay and one academic who doesn't do the proper research to mint a fake quote.

I believe that it is a good idea for the majority of people in a certain area to have a common religious background. It gives people a common reference point and it’s easier to understand each other even though you may not know who somebody is. But the united States has become a mixed bag of a lot of things. So it’s harder to tell who’s what, especially now because people aren’t acting as religiously as they have in past generations. It is becoming less and less a part of our culture, not more. Sure, maybe when this country first started it was a mostly Christian nation, but Christianity is no longer as predominate as it once was. Not to mention all of the denominations there are out there. However there are some religious communities still out there, like the Amish, that will likely never go away.

So it’s harder to tell who’s what, especially now because people aren’t acting as religiously as they have in past generations. It is becoming less and less a part of our culture, not more. Sure, maybe when this country first started it was a mostly Christian nation, but Christianity is no longer as predominate as it once was.

I very strongly dispute this claim on historical grounds. In general, the country has been getting more and more since its founding. The famous revivals of the 19th century were noteworthy for having occurred in a society with as much a habit of thumbing its nose at organized religion to the extent that the USA did. Evangelical christians have gained ground, even in recent years. Religious groups work more actively in politics, not less. Modern marketing techniques have been enthusiastically adopted by [in my opinion, less than scrupulous] major religious organizations to increase conversion and retention.

My main point is that people are using religion less actively in their daily lives. But generally I have noticed that the only times I ever hear anybody say anything about god is when somebody shouts "god damn it!" Or whenever I flip past TBN. Now of course there are going to be exceptions. Everything has it's exceptions. But those numbers are relatively few by comparison to the general masses of people.

Anyhow, I would like to touch onto an issue that was brought up earlier by a forumite concerning expression of religion in schools.
I'd like to direct you http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pray.htm for a comprehensive amount of information and research into the matter. I won't post it all, as I think I stressed the server enough already.

However, I will summarize a few main points.

Religion has not been banned in schools. There have been limits set, however, these limits were designed to protect students. I'll go deeper into that in just a moment.

Things you can do.
1. Students are allowed to pray, wether singly or in groups. However, these prayers may not be detrimental to the welfare of the learning invironment.
Example: Bobby may pray to himself silently before lunch. Bobby may not get Sue, Jonny and Jackie to pray with him in the hall, completely blocking the way of other students.
2. Students are allowed to discuss religious topics amongst themselves when appropriate.
Example: During free period, Chris and Joe may discuss their favorite deity amongst themselves freely. They may not do so in class, while the teacher is trying to lecture, just as Sue is not allowed to chatter about her new car to Bobby.
3. Students are allowed to wear jewlery as an expression of their faith. They must conform, however, to certain school standards.
Example: Pam wears an ankh to express herself. It is small, silver and conforms to school codes. This is allowed. Danny has a cruxifix he likes to wear that recites the Lord's Prayer randomly. This is a distraction, and most likely against school codes. That particular cruxifix is not allowed. If he were to obtain another that conformed, he could wear it freely.

Things that cannot be done.
Public schools must remain neutral with respect to religion:
1. They may not promote or denigrate a particular religion in relation to another religion or to secularism.
2. They may not promote religion over secularism as a superior approach to life.
3. They may not promote secularism over religion as a superior approach to life.

Rather straight-forward, isn't it? Now, there is a reason, which I will explain in a personal anecdote.

I attended High School in the Southern parts of the United States, where religion happens to be rather strong. In my school, we had a certain 'club' named '{High school name omitted} Acknowledging the Risen Savior.' I'm sure you can understand its purpose.

It was quick approaching Memorial Day, and in honor of the occasion, the administration arranged a compulsory assembly for all the students. We were escorted out of class, into the auditorium. There were several speakers, the principal, a retired military man, etc. The bombshell was at the end.

The final speaker was none other than the president of the previously mentioned 'club' above. She had been scheduled by the administration to lead the entire student body in a decidedly denominational prayer. To which everyone stood, bowed their heads, and prayed. Save one student. Me.

I honestly believe that only a few people know the sense of alienation you experience in such a situation. Like the entire universe contracts, and spits you out. I was shell-shocked.

Afterwards, in the halls, I got shoved by a few other students had been near, and saw my lack of faith. They angrily asked why I would not pray. My answer was not to their satisfaction. By the next day everyone in school knew it.

I came in the day after the assembly to a host of death threats, notes in my locker and shoves in the halls. The other students, my peers, assaulted me in the halls and classrooms. Almost all the teachers let them. A few told me personally that I would burn in hell. My complaints to the administration were dismissed as being my own fault.

In a way, I did suffer hell. I entered it every weekday, at 7:45 am with the first bell. I would never wish my time of torment onto anyone, and I oppose any attempt to force religion unto the masses. Spare the children.

here's a link to an editorial on this topic, for anybody who feels like reading even more opinion :P
http://zombiedeathkoala.blogspot.com/

whoa Ocarinas! I can certainly see why you would see so deeply into this subject. I am so sorry you had to deal with that but it must have been so you could spread that message cuz I think its a powerful one.

whoa Ocarinas! I can certainly see why you would see so deeply into this subject. I am so sorry you had to deal with that but it must have been so you could spread that message cuz I think its a powerful one.

The thing that troubles me most is that people aren't aware of the harm something they consider so innocent could do.

At least, according to some Texans it is.

[Courtesy of the Washington Times]

President Bush and the Republican Party in his home state of Texas are being criticized by Democrats on the touchy issue of whether America is a Christian nation.

At its convention in Austin, the Texas Republican Party voted to reaffirm a plank in its platform that disputes "the myth of the separation of church and state." The plank celebrates the United States as "a Christian nation."

An official of an organization affiliated with the Democratic National Committee castigated the action. "This is part and parcel of who the GOP and their conservative base are," said David Harris, spokesman for the National Jewish Democratic Committee. "While this is nothing new, it certainly raises to new excesses the lengths this Republican Party is going to in order to tear down the wall separating church and state.
"It is a wall deeply cherished by American Jews — and many other Americans for that matter," Mr. Harris added.

A prominent Democrat called on Mr. Bush to repudiate the Texas party's action. "The Texas party has been off the charts for a long time," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. "Frankly, I would hope President Bush would repudiate that. We are calling on him to do so." Mr. Zogby said the Texas conservative platform "goes against what Bush has said and flies in face of what he has stood for, but it reflects more a policy of [U.S. Rep.] Tom DeLay and some of those hard-liners on the Christian right."

The Texas Republican Party plank says, "Christian Nation — The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States of America is a Christian nation, and the public acknowledgment of God is undeniable in our history. "Our nation was founded on fundamental Judeo-Christian principles based on the Holy Bible. The party affirms freedom of religion, and rejects efforts of courts and secular activists who seek to remove and deny such a rich heritage from our public lives," it states.

The response from the national Republican Party yesterday was far different from the one it gave in 1992, when it pressured then-Mississippi Gov. Kirk Fordice to recant his "Christian nation" statement. Health and Human Service Secretary Tommy G. Thompson, then the governor of Wisconsin, was one of the few nationally known Republicans at the time to defend Mr. Fordice's right to say what he said. Yesterday, the Republican National Committee refused to criticize, let alone undo, what the Texas party had done at its June 4 convention.

RNC Communications Director Jim Dyke said the national party "doesn't control the state parties' platforms. Each state party determines what their state platform will say." But Mr. Dyke deemed it "important to point out we are a country and party of religious freedom and to some people that means a Christian nation, to some a Jewish nation, to others a Muslim nation and to still others — who don't practice religion at all — an agnostic nation. The fact is that all of these things together are what make us a great nation." Mr. Dyke noted: "We are, though, a country founded on Judeo-Christian values and that's why you see 'In God we trust' on our currency and why we sing, 'God bless America.' "

Christian conservatives long have been influential, both in positions and numbers, within the Texas Republican Party. "The Republican GOP of Texas is driven by the grass roots from the bottom up, not the top down," party member Tim Lambert said. "What's in our platform is the position of the state party and the delegates of that convention but, I believe, the vast majority of Texans and probably most Americans." Party Chairwoman Tina J. Benkiser also stood by her state party's plan. "Our platform is an acknowledgment that most of our nation's Founding Fathers had a deep faith in God. We believe that people of faith should be welcomed in the political process today as they were 200 years ago," Mrs. Benkiser said.

She said the state party's platform is virtually identical to the one it has had for the past decade. During that time, she noted, Republicans "have gained over 900 offices in Texas, including all 29 statewide offices, a record number of congressional and state senate seats, and the first state house majority in 130 years. Clearly, the people of Texas recognize that the Republican Party is the mainstream party that best represents their beliefs and values."

Christians make up 82 percent of the U.S. population, Jews 1 percent and Muslims less than 1 percent, with atheists, agnostic and those citing no preference making up 13 percent, according to a Pew Research Council survey of 2,002 adults conducted in 2002.

Goddamn rebublicans. Need to recognize us jews.

Ocarinas, for what it's worth (probably not much, but anyway), I would like to apologise to you on behalf of the worldwide Christian church for what you went through at your school. I'm disgusted to hear that students calling themselves Christian would attack you for choosing not to pray, and equally disgusted that the staff gave you no support.
The actions of certain groups of Christians in the U.S were factors in delaying my conversion to Christianity, but they didn't prevent it, because I think the truth about God is more important than that stuff. I hope you can believe that not all Christians are like the people you knew in high school, that there are some who choose to love everyone, whether they agree with them or not.

To the nation of "The Holy Word", I'm gonna have to ask you specifically chapter and verse from one of the gospels where Jesus said that it was wrong to express your faith in public or maybe you just misunderstood the Great Commission in Matthew 28 where Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
I can't do you chapter and verse (I'm at work) but I'm not talking about public expression of faith. I'm saying that Jesus's proclamation that his kingdom was of the next world, not of this, is directly against the religious right's attempts to interfere in goverment.

Surely if a person adheres to a faith because it is their state religion, then it was not really a free choice and not an accurate reflection of their feelings about the religion.

To put it another way:

A man who died has reached a place of judgement. There he meets God.

God: In life you worshipped me and led your life by christian morals.

Man: Yes.

God: Explain what made you do this.

Man: Because the government told me to.

God is not impressed.

Unfortunately Bush already has said things that make him sound more like the Ayatolla and the Pope; if we are to believe him, which no one should, God talks to him in the same way that God talks to the other two.
Well, I'm more likely to believe the Pope... he IS "God's" messenger... Well, more so than the other two...

Lets misquote the Constitution as well, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Congress is an institution of the Federal government, if State decides it wants to have a non-denominational prayer in its schools, or post the Ten Commandments(only the whole basis for our civil law) in its classrooms then so be it, let them. The Tenth Amendment reserves all powers not expressly given to the Federal governement to the states.

The Ten Commandments in classrooms? How about we put stuff from the Koran up? Would you like that? Or how about we force every child to read Meine Kompf (Yes, I am in Germany and could ask someone if I spelled that right, but I just got in a fight with someone I am staying with...so no asking for me) or the Communist Manifesto? How about we post "Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!" blah blah blah. How about that? The thing is, the public classroom should not preach any faith or ideology. Yes, they can teach about Christianity, as long as they are not saying to 2nd graders "God died for you, oh and look at this. These are ten things God does not want you to do." No, leave that for a private school.

Non-denominational prayer? So you are still supporting a religion. Do you say God? If so, you are supporting monotheistic religions. Do you say gods? Then you are supporting polytheistic religions. Do you have the prayer period? Then you are teaching kids that there is something up there and therefore making it less there decision to believe in something or not. If you hear a prayer to "something above" since you were in 1st grade, you are more likely to believe it than someone who is not. So let the kids make the choice on their own and not have retoric placed upon them daily for or against a God, gods, or religion.

Ocarinas, for what it's worth (probably not much, but anyway), I would like to apologise to you on behalf of the worldwide Christian church for what you went through at your school. I'm disgusted to hear that students calling themselves Christian would attack you for choosing not to pray, and equally disgusted that the staff gave you no support.
The actions of certain groups of Christians in the U.S were factors in delaying my conversion to Christianity, but they didn't prevent it, because I think the truth about God is more important than that stuff. I hope you can believe that not all Christians are like the people you knew in high school, that there are some who choose to love everyone, whether they agree with them or not.

I do appreciate the apology, but fear not. There was at least two people at my school that were what I like to consider 'Good Christians' that acted with the attitudes professed. The first was one of my classmates, David. He's blind, and a drummer, and I would often drive him home. We'd camp out in his house, eat oven pizza and talk about stuff. We could discuss theology and philosophy for three or more hours with such civility.

The second was my AP History teacher. And even though she too, was Christian, she also believed deeply in the ideals founded by our forefathers. She stood by me, and my right to be free from hatred and discrimination. She even helped me take action, as I should have done.

Though it does sadden me, that in a school of about 1000 students and teachers, only 2 stood with me.

Goddamn rebublicans. Need to recognize us jews.

Here here. And then they wonder why we vote Democrat in every election? Oy.

I do appreciate the apology, but fear not. There was at least two people at my school that were what I like to consider 'Good Christians' that acted with the attitudes professed. The first was one of my classmates, David. He's blind, and a drummer, and I would often drive him home. We'd camp out in his house, eat oven pizza and talk about stuff. We could discuss theology and philosophy for three or more hours with such civility.

The second was my AP History teacher. And even though she too, was Christian, she also believed deeply in the ideals founded by our forefathers. She stood by me, and my right to be free from hatred and discrimination. She even helped me take action, as I should have done.

Though it does sadden me, that in a school of about 1000 students and teachers, only 2 stood with me.

I'm really glad to hear that your friend and your teacher acted, as you said, "with the attitudes professed" (though I suspect they wouldn't describe themselves as good, but would be happy to know you appreciated their behaviour). I'm also saddened that only 2 out of a thousand stood with you. I hope that if you ever decide to consider the claims of Christianity for yourself (again?), you remember those two.

One of the founding fathers(sorry, i cant remember which) said the bible is the fulcrum on which the laws of this nations should be based upon...hmm sounds like a christian to me.

If you can't be bothered to find out who, I can't be bothered to take your opinion seriously.

Well, I'm more likely to believe the Pope... he IS "God's" messenger... Well, more so than the other two...

Only if you're Roman Catholic.

In a sense we are all Gods messengers because we are all God. :P

You need to check your history Parsha. Our nation was founded under a Judeo-Christian heritage. The Declaration of Independence mentions God in it. If you don't believe me, look it up. As for the Jews not believing in the Messiah, I already knew that. I have taken a religions class in which I learned about the worlds major religions.

So, it pays lip service to God, so what? It's a pretty traditional gesture to symbolically bless a new establishment. You still haven't pointed out just where it says, "We hereby establish the United States as a Christian nation..." For all the claims I've seen made to that effect, I find it funny that the pro-God side argues that ambiguous references to God are enough to verify their point, but anything actually written by the founding fathers refuting that point is just glossed over or ignored as unimportant.

Back to our founding. Most of the 2nd Continental Congress where God fearing men. Of the 55 men that formed the Constitution, 52 where active members of their church.

Pretty common for the day. Many of them also kept slaves. Guess we better bring that back - it's traditional and was an integral part of the lives of our founders!

Most of our laws are based on the Jude-Christian Faith. Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles but we don't recognize Christianity as our state religion. That would violate why people came over here in the first place, for religious purposes.

Really, would you point out which laws are based on Judeo-Christian principles? I see only laws that are modeled after laws established for millenia as good governing practices, which just happen to be integral to the model of a stable, safe society, which Christianity happens to advocate (fancy that...). Furthermore, only three of the 10 Commandments are found in our laws, so you're certainly going to have to do a better job of backing up your claim.

Surely if a person adheres to a faith because it is their state religion, then it was not really a free choice and not an accurate reflection of their feelings about the religion.

To put it another way:

A man who died has reached a place of judgement. There he meets God.

God: In life you worshipped me and led your life by christian morals.

Man: Yes.

God: Explain what made you do this.

Man: Because the government told me to.

God is not impressed.

Great example. God, indeed, would not be impressed. How many times did Jesus ridicule the faith of his disciples (men who truly wanted to believe and understand) in the New Testament? I think, were Jesus to be confronted by such as man as above, he would look at him for a second, shake his head, throw up his hands, and walk away. Nowhere does it say that God wants mandatory governmental respect.

If you can't be bothered to find out who, I can't be bothered to take your opinion seriously.

I tried a couple google searches....Nada.....

So, it pays lip service to God, so what? It's a pretty traditional gesture to symbolically bless a new establishment. You still haven't pointed out just where it says, "We hereby establish the United States as a Christian nation..." For all the claims I've seen made to that effect, I find it funny that the pro-God side argues that ambiguous references to God are enough to verify their point, but anything actually written by the founding fathers refuting that point is just glossed over or ignored as unimportant.




Back to our founding. Most of the 2nd Continental Congress where God fearing men. Of the 55 men that formed the Constitution, 52 where active members of their church.

Pretty common for the day. Many of them also kept slaves. Guess we better bring that back - it's traditional and was an integral part of the lives of our founders!


Earlier in this thread we heard from the Founding Fathers about their views of religion. Now we are discussing the FF(Founding Fathers, not Final Fantasy!) and their attendance of church. Anbar is quite correct, church was a huge segment of just about everyone's lives in those days. In fact, when a new village was founded the church was often the first thing built!

Unlike today, church attendence was especially high, and even the FF often attended services, wether from a sense of obligation to be seen by the citizens(In an effort to distance themselves from the elitist monarchy they replaced) tradition or just from pressure to conform. However, this attendance does not neccesarily mean they were christian or catholic, no more than being in a garage makes you a car.

Washington, for example, never received Communion in all the years of his attendance. And now, for more quotes.

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394

"On communion Sundays, he left the church with me after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back after my grandmother."
-- letter to Mr. Sparks on February 26, 1833, in Sparks's Washington, p. 521, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 29

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E. Remsberg, Six Historic Americans

"George Washington's conduct convinced most Americans that he was a good Christian, but those possessing first-hand knowledge of his religious convictions had reasons for doubt."
-- Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol (1987) p. 170, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you."
-- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"His behavior in church was always serious and attentive, but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare that I never saw him in the said attitude.... Although I was often in the company of this great man, and had the honor of often dining at his table, I never heard anything from him which could manifest his opinions on the subject of religion.... Within a few days of his leaving the Presidential chair, our vestry waited on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him relatively to religious theory."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a letter to the Rev. B. C. C. Parker, dated November 28, 1832, from Wilson, Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 189-191, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

"On communion Sundays, he left the church with me after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back after my grandmother."
-- letter to Mr. Sparks on February 26, 1833, in Sparks's Washington, p. 521, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 29

Which seems to indicate, at least for Washington, that his church attendance was a kind gesture, nothing more.

It must be ok then to use Federal money to support religion only when you are defaming it, cause that is what has happened. The National Endowment for the Arts which receives the Federal taxpayers money supports putting a crucifix in a glass jar, filling it with urine and sealing the lid, calling that art. Oh somebody contact the ACLU cause Federal money was just used to buy a crucifix, but oh never mind cause we only bought it because we were going to use it for sacriledge and call it art. On the other hand, you might want to call the ACLU to defend this piece of sacriledge in court, cause if pornography can be called "art" then this can too. What a convoluted position the ACLU takes, thoroughly anti-Christian.

The NEA gives money to artists based on their past works, and has no control over how those monies are spent other than that they be spent on future works of art. "Art" however is a subjective term.

Show me one example of someone who was awarded an NEA grant AFTER having produced some work of "art" that defames religion, a religion, a race, etc. and I will then perhaps feel the outrage that you seem to think is so appropriate.

- A.J.H.

. . .

As a side note, there are only three of the ten commandments in our civil law system - do not kill, do not steal, do not lie under oath. That's a 30%. In school, a 30% is a failing grade so I think that the claim that the 10 commandments is the basis of our civil system is a bit overblown.

. . .



Actually it would be better to say "do not kill, do not steal, do not slander".

Also, children are for the most part still chattel of their parents and must (in theory) do as told, and adultery is a civil tort, and there are still blue laws in force forbidding certain kinds of commerce on the Roman "sabbath".



- A.J.H.

Actually it would be better to say "do not kill, do not steal, do not slander".

Also, children are for the most part still chattel of their parents and must (in theory) do as told, and adultery is a civil tort, and there are still blue laws in force forbidding certain kinds of commerce on the Roman "sabbath".



- A.J.H.

no, the ACLU more or less did away with blue laws

nice job Ocarinas, Thanks!

Case closed Christians.

Please save this to a text file for later use as this comes up all to often and this will hopefully keep them from spouting their ignorance over and over.

Gotta take offence. To call those who do not value the seperation of church and state* "Christians" is like declaring all terrorists "Muslims". It is grossly inaccurate and personally offensive to me as a Christian.

* a PHRASE used to describe the functions of the non-establishment clause. Yes it's not found in THOSE WORDS in the Constitution. So what?

- A.J.H.

* a PHRASE used to describe the functions of the non-establishment clause. Yes it's not found in THOSE WORDS in the Constitution. So what?


Speaking of which, it should be- I'm going to campaign for an amendment to the 3rd amendment (randomly picked) that says "Seperation of Church and State. Nyah, Nyah! There." at the end. :)

Okay, I would contribute something useful, but all the Founding Father quotes have already been used...

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm

no, the ACLU more or less did away with blue laws

In my home town the blue laws were repealed by the city council, after a city council meeting at which I filibustered until the mayor cut me off to announce their decision. In this state it is still illegal to sell alcohol before 11 a.m. on a sunday. If I were devout I would have like five (I think it is) fewer hours than everyone else in which to buy booze, since I would keep the biblical Sabbath, not the Roman one.

- A.J.H.

Gotta take offence. To call those who do not value the seperation of church and state* "Christians" is like declaring all terrorists "Muslims". It is grossly inaccurate and personally offensive to me as a Christian.

* a PHRASE used to describe the functions of the non-establishment clause. Yes it's not found in THOSE WORDS in the Constitution. So what?

- A.J.H.

Ok. We understand the establishment clause.

The groups that seeks to end it or redefine it and make revisionist history are well Christians.

How is that offensive?

To which everyone stood, bowed their heads, and prayed. Save one student. Me.
go you!
i love your opening post with a passion!

[QUOTE=Tahar Joblis]You really ought to remember who... particularly as that may actually be one of a persistent handful of fabricated quotes. Whole books have hinged their arguments on poor foundations.

Furthermore, whole administrations have hinged their arguments on poor foundations. Kudos to the oriental wind instrument!

The thing that troubles me most is that people aren't aware of the harm something they consider so innocent could do.
Right on.
Worse is often the polarization of belief in other's words and lack of personal integral experience to provide some insight to the matter - one or more who were innocent become denizens to a movement inspired more often than not by something possibly evil or at least near evil and certainly charismatic, even if the innocent maintain innocence in most other respects, they would work what could be considered evil.

America has a Christian heritage, I'm paraphrasing but John Adams said that the republic he helped to found was fit only for a moral and religious peoples. Congress used Federal money at the beginning of this country to print Bibles to reach the Indians. Church services were held in the Capitol building as well as other federal buildings. And by the way, the phrase "seperation of church and state" cannot be found in the Constitution, it can be found, however, in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association.
I can go on and on about the Christian heritage of this country and if you want to go by the straight statistics you quoted above this is a Christian nation, we just don't act like it. We have sacrificed our founding principles at the altar of political correctness and feel good politics where nobody can be offended because there is no absolute truth.

Go tell the Native Americans about their "Christian Heritage". Remember that? Until the Christians arrived a few hundred years ago, the Heritage of this land had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. You're guests. Don't be obnoxious. Be happy with your belief structure, if it works, more power to it. But you shouldn't demand that those around you apply, or overlay, your belief sytem onto their own. Why not choose to trust that your fellowmen are fully capable of comporting themselves in a mutually agreeable manner without the involvement of your particular dogma?

America is not christian (I LIVE in Texas) and I will tell you right now, that its not the "Texans" that think its a christian nation its the FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS (yes like bush) but that has nothing to do with him being from texas.

I know many many many many people in america (and texas) who would disagree with your post.

Ah yes, lets just rewrite history to fit our worldview shall we, denying that our founders were not Christians. George Washington was a Christian, take any close look at his writings and letters and you'll be able easily see that, I'd have some quotes for you but unfortunately I'm at work and all my research on this topic is at home (I had to give a speech on this in public speaking class this past semester).

Ahem.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

After George Washington's death, Christians made an intense effort to claim him as one of their own. This effort was based largely on the grounds that Washington had regularly attended services with his wife at an Episcopal Church and had served as a vestryman in the church. On August 13, 1835, a Colonel Mercer, involved in the effort, wrote to Bishop William White, who had been one of the rectors at the church Washington had attended. In the letter, Mercer asked if "Washington was a communicant of the Protestant Episcopal church, or whether he occasionally went to the communion only, or if ever he did so at all..." (John Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, p. 103). On August 15, 1835, White sent Mercer this reply

In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that Gen. Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant.... I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them as I now do you (Remsberg, p. 104).

...Here is firsthand testimony from the rectors of the church that Washington attended with his wife, and they both claimed that he never participated in the communion service. Writing in the Episcopal Recorder, the Reverend E. D. Neill said that Washington "was not a communicant, notwithstanding all the pretty stories to the contrary, and after the close of the sermon on sacramental Sundays, [he] had fallen into the habit of retiring from the church while his wife remained and communed" (Remsberg, p. 107). In this article, Neill also made reference to Abercrombie's reprimand of Washington from the pulpit, so those who knew Washington personally or who knew those who had known him all seem to agree that Washington was never a "communicant." Remsberg continued at length in his chapter on Washington to quote the memoirs and letters of Washington's associates, who all agreed that the president had never once been known to participate in the communion service, a fact that weakens the claim that he was a Christian. Would preachers today consider someone a devout Christian if he just attended services with his wife but never took the communion?

...Clearly, then, one cannot assume from Washington's presence at church services and his membership in the Truro parish vestry that he was a Christian believer. Is there any other evidence to suggest that he was a Christian? The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, preached a sermon in October 1831 in which he stated that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism" (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15). He went on to describe Washington as a "great and good man" but "not a professor of religion." Wilson said that he was "really a typical eighteenth century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook" (Ibid.). Wilson wasn't just speaking about matters that he had not researched, because he had carefully investigated his subject before he preached this sermon. Among others, Wilson had inquired of the Reverend Abercrombie [identified earlier as the rector of the church Washington had attended] concerning Washing ton's religious views. Abercrombie's response was brief and to the point "Sir, Washington was a Deist" (Remsberg, p. 110). Those, then, who were best positioned to know Washington's private religious beliefs did not consider him a Christian, and the Reverend Abercrombie, who knew him personally and pastored the church he attended with his wife flatly said that Washington was a Deist.

The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_" (Remsberg, p. 120, emphasis added).

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html

Also, a quote from Richard Shenkman's I loved Paul Revere, whether he rode or not:

As for the beliefs of the founding fathers, the remarkable thing is not that so many believed in Christianity, but that so many expressed doubt about it... Ben Franklin never believed in the divinity of Christ and as a young man he toyed with polytheism... as an old man John Adams became fascinated with paganism... Thomas Jefferson believed in God and considered himself a Christian, but he seemed to reject the divinity of Christ and considered Calvin's sermons blasphemous. Alexander Hamilton, both at the beginning of his life and near the end, expressed faith in Christianity, but during the revolutionary period he was utterly indifferent to it... Thomas Paine condemned the "monstrous belief" that God had ever spoken to man. George Washington, though he belonged to the Episcopal church, never mentioned Christ in any of his writings and he was a deist.

Certainly the founders weren't hostile either to religion or the clergy... but neither did they insist, one and all, that religion was a pillar of liberty. Indeed, many of the most illustrious founders plainly rejected the idea. Historian John Diggins says those involved in writing and defeding the Constitution, men like James Madison and Alexander Hamilton, "expressed profound ambivalence about religion, often seeing it as divisive rather than cohesive." And some of those who later came to believe in the necessity of religion, such as Adams, originally thought religiosity was of little matter.

... The founders have been pressed into the service of religion so long now and with such force that it is almost impossible to recover what they really thought. But we can certainly reconstruct their actions... Consider the practice of public prayers [such as] opening meetings of Congress with a prayer... we do more of it than they ever did (not because they opposed praying but because they thought politics and praying didn't mix). The Constitutional Convention opened without a single prayer and several of the first presidents, including both Jefferson and Madison, generally refused to issue prayers, despite importunings that they do so. Under pressure, Madison relented in the War of 1812, but held to his belief that chaplains shouldn't be appointed to the military or be allowed to open Congress.

Your turn. :D

The return of QahJoh...Anyway, how does one make the claim that the US is "officially" Christian when there is no official religion? There aren't any legal documents saying that we have an official religion.

You need to check your history Parsha. Our nation was founded under a Judeo-Christian heritage. The Declaration of Independence mentions God in it. If you don't believe me, look it up.

I did. It says, "Nature's God". That doesn't sound particularly "Christian" to me. In fact, it seems to have more pagan undertones than anything else.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out to me by several history teachers, the Dec. of I. has no LEGAL significance, as opposed to, say, the Constitution (which DOESN'T mention God at all, BTW). The Dec. of I. is, for all intents and purposes, a propaganda tract, written by a "pre-nation". It has no legal status as far as the actual American state goes, and therefore is largely irrelevant to American law or principles.

Most of our laws are based on the Jude-Christian Faith. Yes our nation was founded on Christian Principles

Says who? Many western nations have similar laws, most of which go all the way back to Hammurabi's code. "Don't steal, don't kill" aren't specifically Biblical ideas.

Deranged Chinchillas- I didn't know I had gone anywhere?

Deranged Chinchillas- I didn't know I had gone anywhere?

hehe, just haven't seen any posts from you today. Yesterday at this point of time. Maybe I just missed them.

Anywho, it's unfair saying that most laws/decisions are based on religious values. People have a habit of saying that anything "just" they do is based on their religious values. Those religious values are really just ideas that they formed. It may have been somewhat influenced by stuff you've read/heard in your religion but the decision was yours. Not [enter deity of choice], not the [enter religious text of choice]; yours. Just because some person's idea happens to parallel that of a religion, doesn't mean that it was based on that religion.

Personally, I'm looking at this statement in another light. I do think we live in a Christian nation (more specifically a Protestant nation) because a significant portion of our values and thoughts are consistant and/or based off of Protestant teachings.

As a Catholic, this has been a great concern to me, because Catholicism is NOT a protestant sect plus a big church. It's like saying a Jew is like a Christian minus Jesus. However, Protestant values are highly favored in general American society.

The seperation of church and state is a very protestant idea - a good idea, no doubt, but still it's something just about everyone values in the US regardless of location or race or creed.

America is a free country. Not some goddamned theocracy. seperation of church and state is one of the most fundamental elements of our country's ideology. Having a monogonous religion would be stupid and just plain backwater. Save religious persecution for the southeast asia and the middle east; not the great, free countries like the US or Canada.

Why do assume an ackknowlagement of a countries heratige and fundemental values leads to persecution of others? The two do not neacissarily run hand in hand and in the case of Christianity in the 21st century this should not happen.
my worry is this change of out look is it is that he is trying to appeal to the american people before the election by justifying his policies on Iraq and also gay marrige as a religious exercise. Unfortunatly the people that this will appeal to probably already vote republican.

Personally, I'm looking at this statement in another light. I do think we live in a Christian nation (more specifically a Protestant nation) because a significant portion of our values and thoughts are consistant and/or based off of Protestant teachings.

ahh, therefore America is also a White Nation, right? and we are a Fat Nation, too, since the majority of Americans are overweight?

and to those who say we are a Christian Nation because God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, please take this into consideration:

"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory." - Rev. Dr. Wilson

Ok. We understand the establishment clause.

The groups that seeks to end it or redefine it and make revisionist history are well Christians.

How is that offensive?



Since some graverobber dug this up I will answer:

They call themselves Christians but it does not make them so. They seek to pervert the law of the state, or more rather to keep it from full manifestation, on behalf of God and Christ as if they had ever been told to and with no faith in His choice of governments for them to live under. They also, as many as call themselves patriotic Americans, are hypocrites, which is about the worst thing for a "Christian" to be.

America is a christian nation, but there are other religions here and they are protected.

America is a christian nation, but there are other religions here and they are protected.Since The U.S. has no state religion and was founded with a firm belief in the seperation of church and state that is very untrue. America is a predominantly Christian country with about 3/4 of the population professing to be such. But that still leaves one in four who are not, quite a large minority.

Hrmmm .... I've been reading all of this very, very carefully and there has been one thing that has been conveniently ignored by those who believe the US to be a Christian Nation and/or founded on Christian principles: Prove it.

Not a single law exclusive only of the New Testament has been shown to be part of the US Constitution.

We, therefore, must look at what Christian Law means. We can go right to the source on this and ask Jesus himself! Matthew 22:36-40 = "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments"

Well, there is no law in the US Constituion nor in the various States that says we must, by law, "love the lord our God with all our heart and soul and mind".

There is also no law in the US Constitution nor in the various States that commands us to love our neighbors. We can't harrass them or beat them or kill them, but nothing says we have to love anybody. Charity is not compulsory in the US.

Some of you may be saying at this point, "But what about the Golden Rule?" Well, I would include that simply because it's nowhere to be found in our Constitution, but it is not exclusive to Christianity. Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31 have been told and retold by every religion in human history in one form or another.

I often cite Luke 6:31, however, when I get into these discussions on school prayer and "Christian Nation" and all of that. Even though it is their "Golden Rule", a major chunk of Christianity does not accept it. The verse has an implied feel in application of "unless the other is not Christian, then all bets are off".

Yes, I know, the standard response to this is: Well, those people aren't true Christians. I have to ask, though ... if a vast majority of Christians act in a public manner a certain way, then how can a true version of Christianity ever be realized? When did Christians branch off into "true" and "not true" forms of itself?

The earliest Christians (followers of "The Way") were hermit monks who lived their lives in caves by themselves, shut off from the outside world except for sending out messengers now and then with their writings. Would those be "true" Christians?

Should we look a mere 150 years into the future of the hermit flagellants to the great Christian Emperor Constantine who passed the following laws:

This pertains to women, who live in our weaving factories and whom Jews, in their foulness, take in marriage. It is decreed that these women are to be restored to the weaving factories.

This prohibition [of intermarriage] is to be preserved for the future lest the Jews induce Christian women to share their shameful lives. If they do this they will subject themselves to a sentence of death.

Is this a good and "true" Christian law? This is a mere 300 years after the death of Jesus, you know.

Maybe we need to go a little further in time ...

No Jew - or no Samaritan who subscribes to neither [the Jewish nor the Christian] religion - shall obtain offices and dignities; to none shall the administration of city service be permitted; nor shall any one exercise the office of a defender [that is, overseer] of the city. Indeed, we believe it sinful that the enemies of the heavenly majesty and of the Roman laws should become the executors of our laws - the administration of which they have slyly obtained and that they, fortified by the authority of the acquired rank, should have the power to judge or decide as they wish against Christians, yes, frequently even over bishops of our holy religion themselves, and thus, as it were, insult our faith.

Ok ok ok ... maybe the early Christians weren't quite up to snuff on the Golden Rule or any of that just yet ... even Brother Maynard said to skip bits ...

Since many judges, in deciding cases, have addressed us in need of our decision, asking that they be informed what ought to be done with witnesses who are heretics, whether their testimony ought to be received or rejected, we therefore ordain that no heretic, nor even they who cherish the Jewish superstition, may offer testimony against orthodox Christians who are engaged in litigation, whether one or the other of the parties is an orthodox Christian.

Should I go on? Nah ... not important ... you're probably getting the idea.

These are the laws of Christianity and of Christian leaders. When did "true" Christians start showing up? How are we supposed to differentiate in the face of 2,000 years of tyrrany, oppression, hatred, and alienation that has been ceaseless in its determination to cleanse the world of everything non-Christian?

Short answer: We can't.
Long answer: We won't.

Well, I'm not American and only have notions of American history, but those saying American laws were NOT based on christianity have certainly convinced me more. I haven't read a single solid argument that the US was founded as a christian nation. More like wishful thinking.
Btw, thanks to Ocarinas for the quotes on the founding fathers. Very informative. And on your refusal to pray: way to go. Sounds like something I'd do (but where I live your situation would never happen).
Moreover (and I saw this in a National Geographic documentary, a reliable source I think) I've heard that freemasonry also played an important part in the foundation of the US. Just check your dollar bills: a pyramid and an eye = freemason symbol. (But I'm no expert, my apologies if I'm misinformed)

Regardless whether or not the US was founded as a christian state, I believe in separation of church and state. My religion (or lack of) is my own personal business, and no religion should be favored over another. Hell, if I were an American and I had to testify in court, I would seriously have a problem with swearing on the bible. I will NOT swear to God to say the truth. It implies that everyone SHOULD believe in (a) God, otherwise you risk being excluded from society. Every one's free to practice their beliefs, but please, PLEASE don't force them on another.

As a European (who has lived in the States), I get the impression that christianity is favored over other religions, but also that ANY religion is favored over not believing in a Superior Being. Just my impression.

And finally, even if the US were founded as a christian nation, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. History is never a justification, you can't justify a situation in the present just because it happened in the past! For example slavery. (Thanks to the person who posted that example)

To the nation of "The Holy Word", I'm gonna have to ask you specifically chapter and verse from one of the gospels where Jesus said that it was wrong to express your faith in public or maybe you just misunderstood the Great Commission in Matthew 28 where Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

In regards to the quote from one of George Washington's letters, I do believe that the question at hand was whether or not he was a Christian or not, nothing in that quote suggests that George Washington was not a Christian. The quote itself is an admirable one and I don't think any Christian would disagree with it, but in fact we are not living up to that statement by Mr. Washington. Not when you are not allowed to pray in a school. There was a case in Missouri where a elementary school student was suspended for saying a prayer of blessing over his lunch to himself. Not when you are labled a religious bigot for daring to say there are absolute truths in this world.

Expressing your faith by saying your a Christian is all fine and dandy, but I do believe that it was said to pray in private.

Mathew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

And finally, even if the US were founded as a christian nation, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. History is never a justification, you can't justify a situation in the present just because it happened in the past! For example slavery. (Thanks to the person who posted that example)


Sadly, a nation with as much power as the United States begins to believe that its actions are right regardless. Americas targeted assasination attempts against Fidel Castro are righteous acts, even if they are simultaniously terrorist acts by their own definition.

Christian Americans have begun to believe that their power and standing in the world is a mandate from god to do as they please. Meanwhile they are sheilded from the harsh reality that the US governments actions mean for the rest of the world. 100,000 dead in Iraq. Good one guys.

Lets misquote the Constitution as well, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Congress is an institution of the Federal government, if State decides it wants to have a non-denominational prayer in its schools, or post the Ten Commandments(only the whole basis for our civil law) in its classrooms then so be it, let them. The Tenth Amendment reserves all powers not expressly given to the Federal governement to the states.

The Congress always supercedes State, County etc governments.