NationStates Jolt Archive

(It happened 15 days ago but I could only share the wonderful news tonight due to Forums being down)

Ah, great news - the evil Conservative Party was successfully defeated, though just barely. The party I voted for (NDP-Socialist) of course never had a chance to win a majority, but at least my second choice the Liberal Party won.

However, The NDP (socialist) party is now holding the balance of power in Parliament! That means for the governing Liberals to stay in power, they will have to co-operate fully with the NDP.

Canada is shortly going to have progressive/enlightened social-democratic policy and legislation that will be the envy of the world. Expect some amazing things folks.

**THANK YOU** to all Canadians who voted Liberal and NDP!!

Another reason is because the two major parties know it will be costly to hold an election so soon now that there is a minority.

And yes, I am happy too that the Libs and NDP got some power. And if the rednecks in Alberta hate it... well...TS!

*bows* Thank you for appreciating my vote!

Yay for the NDP!

Which recounts did the Liberals win? Last I heard it was still steady at a Liberal loss and the NDP being one vote short of giving the Liberals the magic 155.

Thank God the Liberals won. I am happy to see that the Conservatives actually got less votes as a NEW party, than the two separate Conservative parties.

Note to Garaj Mahal: The Liberals can get legislation passed by appealing to ANY of the parties and will not have to rely solely on the NDP.

Note to Squi: The Liberals may be 1 short, if you consider an alliance with the NDP, but would have a majority if certain pieces of legislation appeal to the Bloc. Also keep in mind that the 1 Independent Member of Parliament is an ex-Alliance Member who could hold sway with the Liberals and I imagine that makes his day if he is seeking revenge against the Conservatives that dumped him.

Either way, I look forward to a progressive session when the House reconvenes. As long as the NDP can keep its' collective ego in check, the present Government can accomplish a lot of good over the next two years or so.

Cute, well, call me biased because I am living in the middle of Alberta (Edmonton) while I am going to school, and yes, I did vote Conservative, as did pretty everyone out here.
Well, I just wonder how in the heck you guys can forget all those years of waste, fiscal mismanagement, and scandal. As for the NDP, I am originally from Saskatchewan, the birthplace of Canadian Socialism, and let me tell you, I've seen the effects of NDP governments, and it is not pretty. This might be why this was the first federal election in history that the NDP didn't even get one seat there.
As for Conservative governemnts in Alberta, well, if you take Ralph Kliens comments to heart, you are fools. He is no dummy and he understands that he gets elected every time becuase he is seen as battling the Libertal Eastern Federal governent that Ontario and the Maritimes always elect, but we pay for. He had a vested interest in saying things that would hurt the Conservative Federal Party.
And let's not forget that Alberta "rednecks" or not, give more money to confederation than any other province, and the average wage here is $10,000.00 higher than anywhere else in the country, along with no PST and the lowest income tax, and we just paid off our debt, as I recall. And Calgary is the fastest growing city in North America with the highest per capita education rate in Canada. That paints Albertans as pretty stupid, I'm sure. I am a Saskatchewan boy at heart, I always will be, but, there is a reason that all my friends here are from out of province, people are moving to lamd of opprotunity...and the only thing the Liberal government has been doing is putting roadblocks in our way.
Well, here is to another Liberal government, how much more of my tax dollars can be misspent, how much more corruption and waste can we see.
WWJD
Amen.

Yay! Civilization across the northern border!

Now, if only we could get things working down south here, most of the continent would be set.

You don't realise what you are talking about, when you think Conservative, you picture Bush and his crony's....not cool.
WWJD
Amen.

Stephen Harper and Randy White are already too much like Bush & Co for most Canadians to tolerate. Tahar's comparison is a valid one.

I'm a saskatchwan boy too and can say that NDPers like Tommy Douglas and Roy Romanow are the finest Premiers this country ever produced. We need more like them.

Another reason is because the two major parties know it will be costly to hold an election so soon now that there is a minority.

And yes, I am happy too that the Libs and NDP got some power. And if the rednecks in Alberta hate it... well...TS!

unfortantly I think that i was one of a handful of people in Alberta that voted Liberal

Hey it took more than a handful to elect Anne McLellan - there's hope for Alberta yet!

YAY!!!

We don't need another Bush and co. on this planet

You do know that you lost 30 seats in your parliment right? That has got to scare the Liberal Party Bigwigs. Losing thirty seats is a big thing in politics. I bet over time, the Liberal party will lose a full election and the Conservatives will take over. Say what you will about conservatives, I've heard plenty believe me, however, but they will win people over. Its happened here and it will happen again here. In Canada, things are different. However, it appears to me that Western Canada has been left behind. Didn't one of the liberals running ask do you want canada to be runned from Western Canada? I call that a scare tactic that has succeeded. No wonder Canada is so screwed up. No body cares about western Canadian interests. They only care about their own little club.

I still can't believe Olivia Chow and Monia Mazigh didn't get their seats. Oh, well, if the recount in Palliser goes our way, there's still hope for an NDP-Liberal coalition.

I am quite pleased with the recent Liberal victory. We walked into that election with predictions from the media and think-tanks that put us as the official opposition in conservative minority government. Now, there is a sufficient distribution of seats to the four parties to allow for the Liberals to maintain power.

The Bloc will support the government knowing that this is the largest number of seats they could get (their whole platform that a vote for them is not a vote for soveriegnty was thrown out the window during Ducceppes celebration speech).

The Conservatives are one shadow cabinet member outburst away from splitting. They have no official policy, the PC elements are more then embittered that they have become so regionalized as a party, they actually lost support in Atlantic Canada and their position as the only center right party will not allow them to topple the government.

The NDP did well but their efforts to support the Green Party is just stupid. Why support the creation of a party that will take away your own voters? Plus, they will try to maintain the government due to many vote splitting problems in ridings that went conservative. People might shift their votes behind the liberals just to out the CPC in their area.

Well, thats my morning rant. Now for some coffee.

You do know that you lost 30 seats in your parliment right? That has got to scare the Liberal Party Bigwigs. Losing thirty seats is a big thing in politics. I bet over time, the Liberal party will lose a full election and the Conservatives will take over. Say what you will about conservatives, I've heard plenty believe me, however, but they will win people over. Its happened here and it will happen again here. In Canada, things are different. However, it appears to me that Western Canada has been left behind. Didn't one of the liberals running ask do you want canada to be runned from Western Canada? I call that a scare tactic that has succeeded. No wonder Canada is so screwed up. No body cares about western Canadian interests. They only care about their own little club.

canada screwed up? oh i'd dearly like to hear more from you about that. Scare tactic? and how many of those has bush used?

(It happened 15 days ago but I could only share the wonderful news tonight due to Forums being down)

Ah, great news - the evil Conservative Party was successfully defeated, though just barely. The party I voted for (NDP-Socialist) of course never had a chance to win a majority, but at least my second choice the Liberal Party won.

However, The NDP (socialist) party is now holding the balance of power in Parliament! That means for the governing Liberals to stay in power, they will have to co-operate fully with the NDP.

Canada is shortly going to have progressive/enlightened social-democratic policy and legislation that will be the envy of the world. Expect some amazing things folks.

**THANK YOU** to all Canadians who voted Liberal and NDP!!

oh wonderful not only do we have to deal with canadian liberal media we have to deal with their liberal government to. This could get interesting. At least im on the other side of the USA

yea and I'll expect amazing things, things that'll hurt Canada and the US in general since we are linked together.

Well, at least the Conservatives aren't in power. Then it would be impossible to tell us from the U.S.

canada screwed up? oh i'd dearly like to hear more from you about that. Scare tactic? and how many of those has bush used?
I second your appeal to Formal Dances San Haiti. I am waiting for her to explain how Canada is "so screwed up". Anyone can make a comment, but unless they have some significant "facts" to back up their statement, it (the comment) is not worth the powder to blow it to hell.

oh wonderful not only do we have to deal with canadian liberal media we have to deal with their liberal government to. This could get interesting. At least im on the other side of the USA

It seems that many smarter Americans appreciate the "Voice Of Reason" coming from the Liberal media and governments of their caring neighbour to the north.

And let's not forget that Alberta "rednecks" or not, give more money to confederation than any other province,

I would have to totally disagree with your statement. Ontario has 4 times the population of Alberta, so it would stand to reason that Ontario not only contributes 4 times more money to the Federal Government than Albertans, but certainly the MOST of any of the Provinces.

No wonder Canada is so screwed up.

"Hello Kettle? Pot calling."

For any American to say Canada is "screwed up" is a major belly-laugh indeed! The biggest screw-ups we make are on those rare occasions we elect Conservative governments. Sure it might happen again but it will prove to be a temporary blip which then won't be repeated for another few decades. Conservatism has never really been in Canadians' blood and it never will be in future.

Uh... Progressive? These are the same leftist parties that have mismanaged the Canadian Government and mired America's little brother in beaurocratic filth for the last 10 years, aren't they? Now you're praising them as saviors just because it allowed you to keep Conservatives out of power?

Germans didn't like Communists and Jews, so they voted for a party that promised to solve the problem with these "awful people". How far are you from doing the same thing considering your attitudes towards anyone Conservative?

And let's not forget that Alberta "rednecks" or not, give more money to confederation than any other province

Just like in Quebec, Alberta has for decades been fed propaganda by blinkered and self-serving local governments/media that their province unjustly gives far more to Canada than it receives. Pure malarky.

Just like in Quebec, Alberta has for decades been fed propaganda by blinkered and self-serving local governments/media that their province unjustly gives far more to Canada than it receives. Pure malarky.

Ok then why does Quebec want to split off from the rest of Canada or is that mere propaganda? If a provence wants to split away, let them. There is no need to hold on to a provence that doesn't want to be there. England learned that the hard way.

Poo to the Government Party.

I live in Canada, and when I heard Conservatives being slandered in the campaign for being in favor of increasing military spending (scornfully paid for by the Liberals), I thought, What is wrong with spending money on our troops, I'd sooner see our good boys get new planes and choppers over our political asses getting planes to fly them from their Ottawa offices to wherever.

I have found that everyone has hid in their offices or their new homes, and digging their heads firmly burried in a) the sand, b) their own asses.

I am tired of all the nothing-doing, and the ass kissing, I'd like to see them do something constructive and positive, and at the very least, the government has to pay more for a Canadian military, we have to defend ourselves.

I think that my thinking is neither Liberal or Conservative. I think its good sense.

I am not American, but we need to defend ourselves.

Ok then why does Quebec want to split off from the rest of Canada or is that mere propaganda? If a provence wants to split away, let them. There is no need to hold on to a provence that doesn't want to be there. England learned that the hard way.

Formal, have you been reading 1995 newspapers? They already voted no to separate almost 10 years ago. They have not brought it up again since. There are still some serapartist, but not many left. Certainly no where near enough to mount a rally for Quebec to leave Canada. Same is the case with Alberta. They both whine and bitch, but when push comes to shove they don't want to leave, they just want to bitch ;)

Just like in Quebec, Alberta has for decades been fed propaganda by blinkered and self-serving local governments/media that their province unjustly gives far more to Canada than it receives. Pure malarky.

I concur. I live in Quebec, and long-believed we gave out more money to the central government than we received. Until I saw the actual figures, that is.

Still, I'm happy about this election, and I whoelheartedly hope the liberal government's position of weakness forces them to accept the NPD's voting reforms. They had about 17.5% of the votes nation-wide, but only around 10% of the seats, while liberals had about 35% voters and 45% seats. I believe it to be unfair and anti-democratic. I'm also saddened by the fact that my vote for them is of little consequence, because no NPD candidate was elected in Quebec. Still, this election bodes well for the future, and I say "Go NPD! Go Greens!" in anticipation to the next election :)

Ok then why does Quebec want to split off from the rest of Canada or is that mere propaganda? If a provence wants to split away, let them. There is no need to hold on to a provence that doesn't want to be there. England learned that the hard way.

Most of Quebec's separatists want to split because we're of a different culture and different language than the rest of Canada. Some still haven't forgot we were wrongly conquered by the English in 1761, and that we were rather screwed with the debt-sharing when lower and higher Canada came together. Add to that a couple of decades of uber-centralization by a federal government who refused to accept our differences and respect our jurisdiction, and you get a desire to separate.

Personnally, I think we're better off with the rest of Canada than faring on our own. However, that would be on condition that the new(and improved) government stops being so damn selfish, takes it responsibilities toward funding healthcare, and stops trying to pretend we're just the same as the rest of the country, because we're not, goddarnit. When they get that in their thick head, it'll be much easier for everyone to get along. I always wondered how former Prime-minister Chrétien could call Canada the land of diversity all the while trying to deny that Québec is a distinct entity with distinct culture,ideology and language. Especially coming from a man who spent his childhood in that very province.

Poo to the Government Party.
I am not American, but we need to defend ourselves.



....



*raises eyebrow*



We need to defend against WHO anyway?

They both whine and bitch, but when push comes to shove they don't want to leave, they just want to bitch ;)


...



I know I should feel offended.




...




Nope.



...



Truth hurts though. :-D

unfortantly I think that i was one of a handful of people in Alberta that voted Liberal
And that was a very wise choice.

Most of Quebec's separatists want to split because we're of a different culture and different language than the rest of Canada. Some still haven't forgot we were wrongly conquered by the English in 1761, and that we were rather screwed with the debt-sharing when lower and higher Canada came together. Add to that a couple of decades of uber-centralization by a federal government who refused to accept our differences and respect our jurisdiction, and you get a desire to separate.

Personnally, I think we're better off with the rest of Canada than faring on our own. However, that would be on condition that the new(and improved) government stops being so damn selfish, takes it responsibilities toward funding healthcare, and stops trying to pretend we're just the same as the rest of the country, because we're not, goddarnit. When they get that in their thick head, it'll be much easier for everyone to get along. I always wondered how former Prime-minister Chrétien could call Canada the land of diversity all the while trying to deny that Québec is a distinct entity with distinct culture,ideology and language. Especially coming from a man who spent his childhood in that very province.

I agree that Quebec was wrongly conquered! Unfortunately France, who was incharge of Quebec till 1761, lost the French and Indian, aka 7 years, War. The French lost most of their possessions on the North American Continent only to regain some of it at the end of the Revolutionary War in 1783! Quebec was not among the possession that were returned. As for seperation, we went through that ourselves in our civil war in 1861-1865! The south split because they thought that the President was going to end slavery, they're way of life, so the suceeded from the Union! In April 1861, a confederate General Opened up on Fort Sumter starting the Civil War. In 1865, the South was defeated in the Civil War and slavery was abolished anyway.

As for being better off, your probably right that you are. People have to recognize eachother cultures if people are going to get along. Diversity is fine but if people aren't recognized for their culture, it makes life very dangerous.

I heard that the Canadian liberals sucked, but that the conservatives sucked more. Congrats.

I heard that the Canadian liberals sucked, but that the conservatives sucked more. Congrats.

This is probably the most accurate description of the two parties I've heard so far.

Isn't that about the same when it comes down to american politics as well?

(It happened 15 days ago but I could only share the wonderful news tonight due to Forums being down)

Ah, great news - the evil Conservative Party was successfully defeated, though just barely. The party I voted for (NDP-Socialist) of course never had a chance to win a majority, but at least my second choice the Liberal Party won.

However, The NDP (socialist) party is now holding the balance of power in Parliament! That means for the governing Liberals to stay in power, they will have to co-operate fully with the NDP.

Canada is shortly going to have progressive/enlightened social-democratic policy and legislation that will be the envy of the world. Expect some amazing things folks.

**THANK YOU** to all Canadians who voted Liberal and NDP!!

Thank you for thanking me for voting NDP. I wish to say the same to you...

But we need that one more seat to be really effective. Especially now that the Liberals will go after Conservatives to support Canada's involvement in the U.S. Missile Defense Program!

I hate this!


Artmoon, Speaker of the Egalitarian Haven of Sinopia

This is probably the most accurate description of the two parties I've heard so far.

Isn't that about the same when it comes down to american politics as well?

I can not argue with this..lol :p

What is wrong with spending money on our troops, I'd sooner see our good boys get new planes and choppers over our political asses getting planes to fly them from their Ottawa offices to wherever.

I am not American, but we need to defend ourselves.

....

*raises eyebrow*

We need to defend against WHO anyway?

I think it's time we increased military spending - not to defend against "enemies" since we really don't have any, but so we can:

- continue to be a useful peacekeeper internationally
- keep our coasts secure against people-smugglers, drug-smugglers and resource thieves.
- keep our military aircraft and other equipment from falling apart and killing the people operating them
- pay military personnel half decent salaries
- generate some employment by building equipment here

I agree that it was necessary to drastically cut military spending in order to prevent the economic collapse that the Mulroney Tory deficit was rapidly leading us into. But thanks to a decade of Paul Martin's generally-good fiscal management, that deficit has now been slain and Canada's economy is doing very well. It's time to put more money into health, education, social programmes *and* the military.

I would have to totally disagree with your statement. Ontario has 4 times the population of Alberta, so it would stand to reason that Ontario not only contributes 4 times more money to the Federal Government than Albertans, but certainly the MOST of any of the Provinces.
My goodnes...your logic is crushing. I wonder whatever shall I do? Hmmm.
Alberta-$0-debt
Ontario-$168 billion
But, by your logic, Alberta should be $42 billion in debt, right, one quarter, according to population.
Alberta also sits atop the largest oil deposit in the world, making Kuwait #2 and Saudi Arabia #3. But, by your logic that would mean Ontario has oil deposits FOUR TIMES THE SIZE!!
I wonder how large that would make the Chinese deposits?!?!
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.

My goodnes...your logic is crushing. I wonder whatever shall I do? Hmmm.
Alberta-$0-debt
Ontario-$168 billion
But, by your logic, Alberta should be $42 billion in debt, right, one quarter, according to population.
Alberta also sits atop the largest oil deposit in the world, making Kuwait #2 and Saudi Arabia #3. But, by your logic that would mean Ontario has oil deposits FOUR TIMES THE SIZE!!
I wonder how large that would make the Chinese deposits?!?!
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.

lmfao!

Oh yes, those are valid comparisons!

Dolt.

I think it's time we increased military spending - not to defend against "enemies" since we really don't have any, but so we can:

- continue to be a useful peacekeeper internationally
- keep our coasts secure against people-smugglers and drug-smugglers
- keep our military aircraft and other equipment from falling apart and killing the people operating them
- pay military personnel half decent salaries
- generate some employment by building equipment here


I very much disagree with increasing our military funding. I have many reasons, but will answer your arguments indiividually for convenience's sake(read: I'm lazy)

- We already are pretty much the most internationnally respected peacekeeper, and we often do much more than other industrialized countries. However, it's not up to us to police the whole planet, and we could never hope to do so alone no matter how much funding we put in the military. What we ought to do is give political pressure to the other G8 countries to give a damn and get off their @$$es even when there isn't an economical reason to help a country.

-Why not spend the money you propose to add to the military on social services welcoming refugees and rehabilitating drug users?At least that would adress the problems from the source.

-This one might be the point where I'm at least in partial agreement with you. However, I think we could make do with either: less aircraft of higher quality, or the same quantity of aircraft but just not buying the latest invisible-laser cannon-toaster-carwasher options planes. Let's face it, we're friends with nearly everybody in the world, and the only countries who would have better planes would be other G8 countries against whom we just wouldn't have a chance had they half a mind to invade us, if only for our relatively low population.

-A member of my extended family works in the armed forces, and a close friend worked for the army until last year. I can assure you they're already VERY well paid.

-I'd really rather create jobs with government funding that didn't involve creating tools meant to kill other humans. I mean, we could boost employment and economy by having any kind of government society, and it would save us having to pay for those profit-hungry arms industrials. Why don't we fund something to save human lives for a change? Heck, we could boost employment by making machines that dig up personnal mines: there's a huge market for that in poorer countries.


That's the reason why I wouldn't boost military funding. There's just so many better things we could do with that money.

Alberta also sits atop the largest oil deposit in the world, making Kuwait #2 and Saudi Arabia #3.


My, are you trying to say that Alberta is the only province without debt, and the most well-off economically, not because Albertans are gods when it comes to productivity and because you're just so darn good in everything, but...

Because you're sitting on a f***ing black gold mine?

...


What are you trying to prove?Albertans have no merit in their economic thriving: they just happened to live in the right place of Canada. But, you know, since it's a natural ressource, it's to be shared: it's what the central government does with the perequation. And it's only fair. Stop boasting about how good you are: you have absolutely no merit. If all that oil was found in NewFoundLand instead of Alberta, you wouldn't be better off than any other province of the plains.

(It happened 15 days ago but I could only share the wonderful news tonight due to Forums being down)

Ah, great news - the evil Conservative Party was successfully defeated, though just barely. The party I voted for (NDP-Socialist) of course never had a chance to win a majority, but at least my second choice the Liberal Party won.

However, The NDP (socialist) party is now holding the balance of power in Parliament! That means for the governing Liberals to stay in power, they will have to co-operate fully with the NDP.

Canada is shortly going to have progressive/enlightened social-democratic policy and legislation that will be the envy of the world. Expect some amazing things folks.

**THANK YOU** to all Canadians who voted Liberal and NDP!!

Evil conservatives? I assume your believe we all have horns and such? Are you capable of any rational thought?

To clarify, the NDP doesn't hold the balance of anything. No matter how much you may believe it Garaj Mahal, they simply don't have the numbers and Martin didn't form any coalition yet. In fact, he needs the NDP AND the 1 independent in order to have a thin majority of 1. He's also mentioned time and time again he will work issue by issue with anyone who will help.

Another thing, if you actually knew what the Canadian system is like you'd know that minority governments mean more of the same and no move forwards on any particular issue.


Note to Squi: The Liberals may be 1 short, if you consider an alliance with the NDP, but would have a majority if certain pieces of legislation appeal to the Bloc. Also keep in mind that the 1 Independent Member of Parliament is an ex-Alliance Member who could hold sway with the Liberals and I imagine that makes his day if he is seeking revenge against the Conservatives that dumped him.

Either way, I look forward to a progressive session when the House reconvenes. As long as the NDP can keep its' collective ego in check, the present Government can accomplish a lot of good over the next two years or so.

Chuck Cadman (independent) was tossed out of the party. He lost his nomination race in his riding and wanted to run as an independent. It contravened the rules so he was forced to leave.

The government will not get much done past December when the NDP and the CPC will both be yearning for another election. The BQ isn't interested since this was the best showing its ever had.


The Conservatives are one shadow cabinet member outburst away from splitting. They have no official policy, the PC elements are more then embittered that they have become so regionalized as a party, they actually lost support in Atlantic Canada and their position as the only center right party will not allow them to topple the government.

The NDP did well but their efforts to support the Green Party is just stupid. Why support the creation of a party that will take away your own voters? Plus, they will try to maintain the government due to many vote splitting problems in ridings that went conservative. People might shift their votes behind the liberals just to out the CPC in their area.

Well, thats my morning rant. Now for some coffee.

The CPC isn't splitting. The people who wanted to leave have left. There will be a policy convention in a few months or so goes the inside chatter. As for the PC elements, I'm in the heart of ex-PC membership and I don't see any discontent. The red tories now went back to the Liberals were they were supposed to be in the first place. We gained 3% in Quebec which is alright, places the CPC at 9%. The only thing I regret is that Tony Clement didn't win his seat, he's a fantastic speaker.

Formal, have you been reading 1995 newspapers? They already voted no to separate almost 10 years ago. They have not brought it up again since. There are still some serapartist, but not many left. Certainly no where near enough to mount a rally for Quebec to leave Canada. Same is the case with Alberta. They both whine and bitch, but when push comes to shove they don't want to leave, they just want to bitch ;)

Pardon, but where do you live? I live in Quebec. The seperatist talk NEVER ended. It won't die, its like Kraft Cheese; Indestructible unfortunately. The latest figures (and every year we have polls to check this) show support for seperation at 40%, +/- a couple of percentage points either way. There has been talk of referendums every so often.


Skalador: Natural resources belong to the provinces. What's fair is if every province gets to keep what it extracts/harvests. Redistribution is all fine and well, when we're willing partners and not forced into it.


Overall, I'm happy with the election. I voted for the CPC. I got promoted within the CPC executive in my riding thanks to the grassroots who supported me. We got 99 seats, not a bad showing, not great either. We got some key people elected and re-elected, including a quadriplegic MP from Charleswood and St-James riding in Manitoba, John Puchniak. We'll be going back to polls in the spring I figure.

My, are you trying to say that Alberta is the only province without debt, and the most well-off economically, not because Albertans are gods when it comes to productivity and because you're just so darn good in everything, but...

Because you're sitting on a f***ing black gold mine?

...


What are you trying to prove?Albertans have no merit in their economic thriving: they just happened to live in the right place of Canada. But, you know, since it's a natural ressource, it's to be shared: it's what the central government does with the perequation. And it's only fair. Stop boasting about how good you are: you have absolutely no merit. If all that oil was found in NewFoundLand instead of Alberta, you wouldn't be better off than any other province of the plains.

Sitting on a black gold mine, yes we are. However, that is not what sets Albertans apart, especially when you consider how valuable the beef-based agriculture and forestry is to the provincial economy, it goes to illustrate an over-arching theme, not a one-trick pony. A government that is pro-business and fiscally CONSERVATIVE would account for Alberta doing so well.
Let us not forget, I am a Saskatchewan boy, and I worked for three years in the Southern Saskatchewan oil patch and saw our wonderful Roy Romanow NDP government and the almost inexplicable sabotaging of Sasktchewan business interests. That same oil deposit is mostly in Alberta, but has edges that are hundreds of square miles into both BC and Saskatchewan, but the governments won't allow developement to take place. Also, the largest natural gas deposit in the world is almost 45% contained within the border of Saskatchewan, again, no development.
And let us not forget the Kyoto Accord, some Liberal trash that, although it looks good on paper, saving the air, lowering emmisions and all that, it has a very human consequence. Are you going to come to Alberta or Saskatchewan and explain to the some 40,000 men, some of whom are my friends, why they lost their jobs to save the air? Or better yet, explain to their kids why Santa isn't coming this year?
Or how about the gun registry? Two billion and counting, not that I have any problems with gun control, in fact, I think Canada's strict gun laws are one of its strengths, but the mis-management is unreal.
Call the people out west as many names as you want, and wonder why we are so upset, it is commentary like we see on this thread that makes us feel so alienated. And when we express our views or concerns, no matter how justified, we are called red-necks and told to stop bitching. You people keep talking about wanting understanding and for all of Canada to get along, but this arrogance on your behalf is what makes us feel so angry and even betrayed by the government that is supposed to protect our interests.
I have no great love for the Quebec seperatist movement, but sometime, I can empathise.
WWJD
Amen.

My goodnes...your logic is crushing. I wonder whatever shall I do? Hmmm.
Alberta-$0-debt
Ontario-$168 billion
But, by your logic, Alberta should be $42 billion in debt, right, one quarter, according to population.
Alberta also sits atop the largest oil deposit in the world, making Kuwait #2 and Saudi Arabia #3. But, by your logic that would mean Ontario has oil deposits FOUR TIMES THE SIZE!!
I wonder how large that would make the Chinese deposits?!?!
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.

You sure do have a problem with numbers it seems? First you suggest that Alberta contributes more to Confederation than any other Province which is totally erroneous, and then you suggest that Ontario's debt is $168 billion, which is also erroneous (try $132 Billion), and doesn't negate the fact that Ontarians through their tax dollars put 4 times more bucks into the kitty than do Albertans.

Dolt huh? LMAO

The CPC isn't splitting. The people who wanted to leave have left. There will be a policy convention in a few months or so goes the inside chatter. As for the PC elements, I'm in the heart of ex-PC membership and I don't see any discontent. The red tories now went back to the Liberals were they were supposed to be in the first place. We gained 3% in Quebec which is alright, places the CPC at 9%. The only thing I regret is that Tony Clement didn't win his seat, he's a fantastic speaker.


I guess its a question of which former PC'ers you speak to. Amongst my colleagues who were conservatives pre-merger, the almost unanimous concensus was that the new party was not reflective of our social values and that the language used by the party elite regionalized us beyond our original borders.

I was under the impression that the CPC was supposed to represent itself as a moderate national conservative party. Instead, they lost support in the Atlantic provinces, they will almost certainly lose all their new support in Quebec due to the victory of the BQ and Ontario will continue to maintian their allegiances. Even in BC, where there was substantial vote splitting between the NDP and Liberals, there was not the expected CPC landslide.

My question is why we cannot have a secular conservative party in this country? Why do the fundies get to determine policy?

It was nice to see so many Liberals elected in B.C. this time - the most in this province since 1968!! So much for the idea that all Westerners hate Liberals. My only regret is that the unpalatable Randy White and John Reynolds didn't lose their seats. Reynolds very nearly did.

BCers finally wised-up a bit and decided they would like to get a bigger voice in Ottawa. I hope the other Western provinces will pay close attention to the benefits that will certainly bring us.

You sure do have a problem with numbers it seems? First you suggest that Alberta contributes more to Confederation than any other Province which is totally erroneous, and then you suggest that Ontario's debt is $168 billion, which is also erroneous (try $132 Billion), and doesn't negate the fact that Ontarians through their tax dollars put 4 times more bucks into the kitty than do Albertans.

Dolt huh? LMAO

Though I freely admit that I may be off on my debt numbers, (never trust the CTV for your stats) I know that I am not off on Alberta contributing more than any other nation financially. I'm not sure why you have such an issue with this, but it is true.
I do find it pretty funny that you corrected me in that fashion though, "What! $168 billion! He must be mad! No my good mad 'tis a mere $132 billion. A paltry sum."
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.

Though I freely admit that I may be off on my debt numbers, (never trust the CTV for your stats) I know that I am not off on Alberta contributing more than any other nation financially. I'm not sure why you have such an issue with this, but it is true.
I do find it pretty funny that you corrected me in that fashion though, "What! $168 billion! He must be mad! No my good mad 'tis a mere $132 billion. A paltry sum."
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.
Ahhhh I was waiting for you to attack me on the debt figure. I set traps and people run into them all the time. So you being a good conservative take the opportunity to make fun of the huge debt hanging over our heads in Ontario?

It is a well kept secret but the Harris Conservatives increased our Provincial debt by $36 Billion in 8 short years. How did they manage to do that? Well they cut funding to hospitals, schools, and municipalities....surely that wouldn't be the reason that the debt increased? They cut the size of government, and government departments that are responsible for health inspections, and the environment......no that wouldn't increase the debt either. They cut back on welfare, and assisted housing. No that wouldn't increase the debt either.

Perhaps it was all the generous tax cuts (favouring the wealthiest) that they had to borrow for? I think I found the answer. They borrowed billions to get a few votes and they left a trail of IOU's. BIG IOU's!!

They even tried to tell us that the budget was balanced when it was not:

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031030/UONTAM/TPTechInvestor

They even managed to change our not for profit hydro system into a somewhat regulated system that is now costing consumers a lot more than before. We just can't trust you Conservative types at all.

As far as Albertans paying more to Confederation than Ontarians, you are sadly mistaken. I think you should cancel your subscription to National Enquirer Magazine. I am beginning to think that I am having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

And yes, I am happy too that the Libs and NDP got some power. And if the rednecks in Alberta hate it... well...TS!


Heck I live in Alberta and I was dancing in the streets to hear that demagogue Reform Alliance did NOT win. Not all of us are rednecks...hyuk!

Though I freely admit that I may be off on my debt numbers, (never trust the CTV for your stats) [B]I know that I am not off on Alberta contributing more than any other nation financially. I'm not sure why you have such an issue with this, but it is true. [/B}
I do find it pretty funny that you corrected me in that fashion though, "What! $168 billion! He must be mad! No my good mad 'tis a mere $132 billion. A paltry sum."
Dolt.
WWJD
Amen.

Really?

Interesting.

How do they contribute more with an economy that produces only 28% of what Ontario's does? you think that Albertans pay three times the federal tax rates to make up the diference?

Don't know what propoganda somebody has been shoving down your throat, but Alberta ranks 4th in the country for economic output. And believe it or not there IS a correlation on how that impacts your contributions to the country as a whole. Like Ontario you also get screwed on the equalization transfers, but on a strict dollar value Alberta ranks behind Ontario, Quebec, and BC.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/econ50.htm

Ok then why does Quebec want to split off from the rest of Canada or is that mere propaganda? If a provence wants to split away, let them. There is no need to hold on to a provence that doesn't want to be there. England learned that the hard way.

Actually only one ethnic group want to split away, and actually only about 50% of that ethnic group at best...

You've all convinced me...I want to seperate now. I shall immediately begin writing my campaign literature...Ontarians for a free Ontario...

Both Alberta and Ontario contribute more than there fair share to every other province...and to the federal government.

Alberta has certainly benefited from its oil stocks - but then Ontario has benefited from being close to the manufacturing centre of N. America.

We all have our strong points and our weak points. King Ralph should be complimented for having the fiscal restraint to pay off the debt instead of pissing money away like the federal government has.

Bravo Ralph.

Heck I live in Alberta and I was dancing in the streets to hear that demagogue Reform Alliance did NOT win. Not all of us are rednecks...hyuk!

;) I was NOT referring to the people in Alberta who voted Liberal, NDP and other but rather to those who voted Reform/Alliance/Neo-Con...

Sitting on a black gold mine, yes we are. However, that is not what sets Albertans apart, especially when you consider how valuable the beef-based agriculture and forestry is to the provincial economy, it goes to illustrate an over-arching theme, not a one-trick pony. A government that is pro-business and fiscally CONSERVATIVE would account for Alberta doing so well.
Let us not forget, I am a Saskatchewan boy, and I worked for three years in the Southern Saskatchewan oil patch and saw our wonderful Roy Romanow NDP government and the almost inexplicable sabotaging of Sasktchewan business interests. That same oil deposit is mostly in Alberta, but has edges that are hundreds of square miles into both BC and Saskatchewan, but the governments won't allow developement to take place. Also, the largest natural gas deposit in the world is almost 45% contained within the border of Saskatchewan, again, no development.
And let us not forget the Kyoto Accord, some Liberal trash that, although it looks good on paper, saving the air, lowering emmisions and all that, it has a very human consequence. Are you going to come to Alberta or Saskatchewan and explain to the some 40,000 men, some of whom are my friends, why they lost their jobs to save the air? Or better yet, explain to their kids why Santa isn't coming this year?
Or how about the gun registry? Two billion and counting, not that I have any problems with gun control, in fact, I think Canada's strict gun laws are one of its strengths, but the mis-management is unreal.
Call the people out west as many names as you want, and wonder why we are so upset, it is commentary like we see on this thread that makes us feel so alienated. And when we express our views or concerns, no matter how justified, we are called red-necks and told to stop bitching. You people keep talking about wanting understanding and for all of Canada to get along, but this arrogance on your behalf is what makes us feel so angry and even betrayed by the government that is supposed to protect our interests.
I have no great love for the Quebec seperatist movement, but sometime, I can empathise.
WWJD
Amen.

About beef-based agriculture and forestry: I give you that. I never did say Albertans were good for nothing: I said you're no better than any of the other 9 provinces.

About the oil and jobs: if you believe polluting our planet and destroying ecosystems is worth a few thousand jobs, we're in disagreement. I think trying to make sure there's a planet left for our children should count,too. They can't care Santa isn't coming if they're dead because we blindly destoyed our environment. And on a side note, with a progressive socialist government instead of a conservative one, there Santa might come. Socialist governments usually love to make sure jobless poeple don't live on the streets, unlike conservatives.

Gun registry: I whoelheartedly agree with you. But I don't think a conservative government would ensure there was less mismanagement: they'd only drop the registration entirely and allow everyone and anyone to wander with a gun in the streets. What we need is start making our liberal government answer for its mistakes and make up for them, not a conservative govt.

I never did any poeple from the rest any names, nor did I say you were rednecks. What I did is point out that your boasting about Alberta's economy and the merits of the conservative government is just that: bragging about something which you have no merit over. I stand by my statement: if you had not stumbled by accident over that oil, you would NOT be any better off than any other province of the plains. So stop saying that you're so good and how King Ralph is a god and he got you out of debt, because he didn't: the oil did. Unfortunately, not all provinces have that chance(or want to to sacrifice the environment for money). That's why you share that wealth with the rest of Canada, just like Ontario shares its wealth, just like Quebec shares its wealth, and all the other provinces.

Amen.

;) I was NOT referring to the people in Alberta who voted Liberal, NDP and other but rather to those who voted Reform/Alliance/Neo-Con...

Does Neo-Con mean roughly the same thing in Canada that it does down here south of the border? I'm a mite curious.

It's not really a liberal government. It's actually a minority government, and the last one fell apart quickly. This is probably the worse form of government any nation can hope for, as endless bickering will lead to totally indecisive action. If it is, Martin will likely pay dearly for this later on (even though it technically isn't his fault, he'll probably get most of the blame).

Does Neo-Con mean roughly the same thing in Canada that it does down here south of the border? I'm a mite curious.
Yes, but Kryozerkia was not using it in this sense. He was referring to the Conservative Party of Canada which is basically a new entity, born out of a merger of the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservatives. The Alliance element is dominant, and it can be said that the PC party is essentially dead, with the "Red Tory" element jumping to the Liberal Party. Since the new Conservative Party is so different from the old Progressive Conservatives it is worth making a distinction between them. "Neo-Con" is a confusing term to use. While the Conservative Party is "neo" since it is something completely different from the old one, it is not "Neo-Conservative" in the usual sense.

It's actually a minority government, and the last one fell apart quickly. This is probably the worse form of government any nation can hope for, as endless bickering will lead to totally indecisive action.
For us libertarians this is the best form of government, for the same reason as you stated. Long live minorities!

The Bloc Quebecois should have won :-\

For us libertarians this is the best form of government, for the same reason as you stated. Long live minorities!
I have to admit, I am no expert on parlimentary governments, but I do know one basic fact: when any party has a majority, it is efficient. When it doesn't, it is held by bickering. I don't see how this could be the best form of government for liberatarians, unless the libertarian party in Canada is really a group of anarchist Luddites.

I have to admit, I am no expert on parlimentary governments, but I do know one basic fact: when any party has a majority, it is efficient. When it doesn't, it is held by bickering. I don't see how this could be the best form of government for liberatarians, unless the libertarian party in Canada is really a group of anarchist Luddites.


I think (s)he is assuming that this means that few new laws that may restrict his freedoms will be passed, which is viewed positively. that rather ignores the corrolary that few laws that might increase freedoms can be passed either.

A hanstrung government is restricted from doing much of anything, which is not generally in the best interest of the people that it is supposed to be working for.

I think (s)he is assuming that this means that few new laws that may restrict his freedoms will be passed, which is viewed positively. that rather ignores the corrolary that few laws that might increase freedoms can be passed either.

A hanstrung government is restricted from doing much of anything, which is not generally in the best interest of the people that it is supposed to be working for.
I do agree. Even though, as you know, I would've prefered a conservative government, I'd rather have the government filled with all-out socialists than to be paralyzed from the neck down, that is, all bickering, but absolutely no action. I have to say that in a presidential system, I think there are ways for hamstrung governments to be effective, as each branch can do a few things on its own. However, that's just my humble opinion. If we let this turn into a debate about a presidential vs. parlimentary system, and you supported a parlimentary system, you'd win, as I know little about parlimentary systems.

It's not really a liberal government. It's actually a minority government, and the last one fell apart quickly. This is probably the worse form of government any nation can hope for, as endless bickering will lead to totally indecisive action. If it is, Martin will likely pay dearly for this later on (even though it technically isn't his fault, he'll probably get most of the blame).
Actually it is a Liberal Government because they won the most seats. However, the Liberals will need assistance in passing money bills in the House.

Minority Governments can be good for the country. Under the Liberal minority in 1965, Canada's new flag was born, replacing the Union Jack, and in 1966 Medicare was enacted by a Liberal minority government.

I look forward to Martin to doing the right things for the next year or two, which if accomplished, will propel the Liberals into another majority government. I envisage more money for health care, municipalities, higher education, and environmental concerns. I also see the Liberals resolving or putting their best foot forward in trying to resolve the Adscam fiasco.

As long as the NDP don't get careless, this could be a very productive Parliament.

I guess its a question of which former PC'ers you speak to. Amongst my colleagues who were conservatives pre-merger, the almost unanimous concensus was that the new party was not reflective of our social values and that the language used by the party elite regionalized us beyond our original borders.

I was under the impression that the CPC was supposed to represent itself as a moderate national conservative party. Instead, they lost support in the Atlantic provinces, they will almost certainly lose all their new support in Quebec due to the victory of the BQ and Ontario will continue to maintian their allegiances. Even in BC, where there was substantial vote splitting between the NDP and Liberals, there was not the expected CPC landslide.

My question is why we cannot have a secular conservative party in this country? Why do the fundies get to determine policy?

Pardon, but who are the fundies? Last time I checked the working idea is that the membership votes on policy, its not handed down to us. If most of our membership is related to some faith and it influences their decision, then you know what? I'll live with it. The majority decides.

I was against the merger, being a CA member in Quebec I thought it was a bad idea. I was outvoted by my colleagues who thought it was a great idea. In general I believe that it was essentially a take over. We did have a secular Progressive Conservative Party except that it disenfranchised Western voters and stopped relating to people. The CPC on the other hand does alot more to speak to Canadians (99 seats is still an improvement).

I only wish that Alberta had been completely blue, the race was close in the 2 ridings that the Liberals won so I guess that's good enough.

Does Neo-Con mean roughly the same thing in Canada that it does down here south of the border? I'm a mite curious.

A Canadian Conservative is at best the equivalent of a weak Democrat in the US. We may call them Conservatives, but when you compare them to US Liberal parties, ie, Democrats, they are quite Liberal...

I only wish that Alberta had been completely blue

Seriously, don't you think it's better for a region to elect a mix of MPs from the different parties, and not to guarantee the same party a win in the same riding every time? That way the parties have to really compete and *work* to get elected in every riding.

I believe Alberta and the West continue to have a proportionally weak voice in Ottawa because its voting patterns are so predictably locked-in. The Liberals think "Since it's nearly impossible to win Westerners over no matter what we might offer them, let's ignore them and concentrate on pleasing regions where we *can* gain votes". And the Conservatives, even when they form a government, can perpetually take the West for granted too because they are always guaranteed most of the seats from there. Therefore Conservatives too will make Easterners a priority to gain their votes.

Eastern voters are much, much smarter because they are *fickle*. Being a fickle voter is just intelligent self-interest, and it motivates politicians to do a better job for their constituents knowing they can always lose their seats.

In the consumer marketplace, "Brand Loyalty" is a quaint relic of yesteryear (When was the last time you met a "Chrysler man"?). Politics are no different - unquestioning "Party Loyalty" is just as passe as "Brand Loyalty" is.

As a Westerner, my greatest hope is that my people will one day learn this valuable lesson and become unpredictable, fickle voters. I would love to see a West - and a nation - that is an ever-shifting polka dot blanket of Blue, Red, Orange and Green.

Seriously, don't you think it's better for a region to elect a mix of MPs from the different parties, and not to guarantee the same party a win in the same riding every time? That way the parties have to really compete and *work* to get elected in every riding.

I believe Alberta and the West continue to have a proportionally weak voice in Ottawa because its voting patterns are so predictably locked-in. The Liberals think "Since it's nearly impossible to win Westerners over no matter what we might offer them, let's ignore them and concentrate on pleasing regions where we *can* gain votes". And the Conservatives, even when they form a government, can perpetually take the West for granted too because they are always guaranteed most of the seats from there. Therefore Conservatives too will make Easterners a priority to gain their votes.

Eastern voters are much, much smarter because they are *fickle*. Being a fickle voter is just intelligent self-interest, and it motivates politicians to do a better job for their constituents knowing they can always lose their seats.

In the consumer marketplace, "Brand Loyalty" is a quaint relic of yesteryear (When was the last time you met a "Chrysler man"?). Politics are no different - unquestioning "Party Loyalty" is just as passe as "Brand Loyalty" is.

As a Westerner, my greatest hope is that my people will one day learn this valuable lesson and become unpredictable, fickle voters. I would love to see a West - and a nation - that is an ever-shifting polka dot blanket of Blue, Red, Orange and Green.

I believe that voters in every riding should vote for whoever they believe will represent them best, regardless of how the electoral map will look. I also doubt you'd raise this issue if the Libs had painted Ontario completely red. In the Edmonton-Beaumont Riding, David Kilgour (Lib) won by 32 votes and in the Edmonton Center Riding, Anne McLellan (Lib) won by 711 votes. Small margins.

Fact of the matter is that the Cons favor the West and Ontario. Most of the money goes to those regions when an election is called or some type of organisation is setup. And the Libs take Ontario for granted and used to take Quebec for granted. It works both ways. Its called having strongholds of support. Eastern voters are not any smarter than Western voters. The very assumption is ridiculous. There are plenty of "safe" ridings in Ontario and former "safe" ridings in Quebec that were ignored. You've obviously never walked door to door campaigning and gauging peoples' opinions.

The only thing I'm interested in, is getting the CPC more recognition, more like-minded members and thus more participation from Canadians (and obviously the cash to fund campaigns...). I want to see their policies given the time of day and some real change to start taking effect. I'd like to see a return to what a Commonwealth is supposed to be.

You know what Vorringia, I don't even care, we won and I'm happy.. I'll worry about this when the far right religious wing of Canada (which is not many) try this BS again.. in the mean time.. I accept our victory and relish in it.. The Liberals aren't going any where any time soon.. they got the message!

You know what Vorringia, I don't even care, we won and I'm happy.. I'll worry about this when the far right religious wing of Canada (which is not many) try this BS again.. in the mean time.. I accept our victory and relish in it.. The Liberals aren't going any where any time soon.. they got the message!

In one year, we'll be back at the polls, by spring time the parties will have sufficiently restored their coffers to give it another go. Only the BQ will be opposed. The Liberals wil be hoping that they can regain some trust. The CPC will try a more concerted effort for that elusive Ontario (and overall Easterner) vote. The NDP will hope to avoid that Liberal-NDP vote splitting while fighting off the Greens. And the Greens will hopefully, finally, get to be part of the debate.

As for the far right, I don't think the Christian Heritage party has a snowball chance in hell of ever breaking the 5% popular vote...ever...

The Liberals won a minority after three consecutive majority governments. Even the CPC can boast that it "won" the election by denting the Liberal seat count.

"Voter Stronghold" is just another phrase for "unthinking entrenched party loyalty" - a self-defeating and passe idea. Like you pointed out Vorringia, it hasn't served Quebec and Ontario well, and they're growing out of it. Urban BC seems to have learned that this time too, and hopefull all regions will one day evolve beyond it.

BTW I'm not a card-carrying Liberal - I've voted NDP, Green, Liberal and even once for a Tory (the late Ray Hnatyshyn).

"Voter Stronghold" is just another phrase for "unthinking entrenched party loyalty" - a self-defeating and passe idea. Like you pointed out Vorringia, it hasn't served Quebec and Ontario well, and they're growing out of it. Urban BC seems to have learned that this time too, and hopefull all regions will one day evolve beyond it.

BTW I'm not a card-carrying Liberal - I've voted NDP, Green, Liberal and even once for a Tory (the late Ray Hnatyshyn).

I was pointing out the fact that Westerners are no more "unthinking entrenched party loyalists" then Easterners. Its common and it happens (I assume) in ALL democracies. Look whats happened in the U.S. with re-districting being abused by both major parties in order to create safe seats.

I also didn't assume you were a member of a party. I am. So my vote goes were my money goes...unless of course...they do something grotesquely idiotic.

Ok then why does Quebec want to split off from the rest of Canada or is that mere propaganda? If a provence wants to split away, let them. There is no need to hold on to a provence that doesn't want to be there. England learned that the hard way.
I agree....If you love them...set them free.

The Bloc Quebecois should have won :-\
They did not?

They did not?

Technically, they did, in the province of Québec. 54 seats is about as much as they could hope, and it's much more than half the 75 seats of Québec. Personnally, I voted NDP, but the Bloc was a close second on my list. Whatever people may bitch about, that they can never hope to be a government, that they're a separatist party, and whatever, I think a victory for the Bloc like this is a good thing.

For one, the fact that they cannot be a government ensures they don't become overly corrupted and fall in scandals like the liberals did, and like the conservatives did in the past.

Second, they do not have any means or powers to go ahead and push separation of Québec and the rest of Canada. Like Duceppe said, even though they're a separatist party and hope that one day Québec will be a country of its own, this is a matter to be decided by the provincial government. So, yeah, they're separatists, but they can't do a thing about it.

Third, they're social-democrats, or whatever you would call their leaning to the left. On more than one occasion, they've voted and protested in harmony with the NDP on matters of civil right or social welfare, healthcare,etc. This is a good point in their favor, since it provides a counterweight to the Conservatives and the right-leaning members of the Liberal party( which the NDP cannot do at this moment due to his number of seats being still too low)

Fourth, contrary to popular belief, they don't just hang around voting against everthing the libs and conservatives propose. They have on countless occasion voted for legislation they thought would improved the life and well-being of every Canadian. Even if Québec isn't specifically involved doesn't mean they vote like they don't care.

Overall, even if it IS sad the NDP didn't get anyone elected in Québec, the Bloc is still a viable option for socialists and leftists all around the province. I certainly hope they work hard, and they cooperate with the NDP and the left-leaning libs to work toward a better future for our country.


Now if only that damn antimissile shield legislation would die on spot... :(

Actually it is a Liberal Government because they won the most seats. However, the Liberals will need assistance in passing money bills in the House.

Minority Governments can be good for the country. Under the Liberal minority in 1965, Canada's new flag was born, replacing the Union Jack, and in 1966 Medicare was enacted by a Liberal minority government.

I look forward to Martin to doing the right things for the next year or two, which if accomplished, will propel the Liberals into another majority government. I envisage more money for health care, municipalities, higher education, and environmental concerns. I also see the Liberals resolving or putting their best foot forward in trying to resolve the Adscam fiasco.

As long as the NDP don't get careless, this could be a very productive Parliament.
Well, the last one needed only a few months to collapse.

Well, the last one needed only a few months to collapse.

The longevity of the present government depends msotly on wheter or not it's willing to commit to a long-term alliance or not. If they chose to compromise with the NDP or bloc for support, and kept their end of the bargain, they could last for the entire term. If they try to juggle votes and support from all three other parties, sooner or later it'll crumble under their feets.

The longevity of the present government depends msotly on wheter or not it's willing to commit to a long-term alliance or not. If they chose to compromise with the NDP or bloc for support, and kept their end of the bargain, they could last for the entire term. If they try to juggle votes and support from all three other parties, sooner or later it'll crumble under their feets.

They'll go for the second option. They'll juggle the vote with the NDP and BQ on votes of a moral/social context and they'll bet any fiscal responsability issues with the CPC. I just don't believe Martin has the necessary political skill or clout to actually succeed for very long.

The Canadians voted their liberal socialists in -- another reason why I will never cross the Lake Superior from my Michigan UP and visit Canada....

Me!

They'll go for the second option. They'll juggle the vote with the NDP and BQ on votes of a moral/social context and they'll bet any fiscal responsability issues with the CPC. I just don't believe Martin has the necessary political skill or clout to actually succeed for very long.

You're voicing one of my main apprehensions about the current government. Still, it's better that way: at least we get progress on moral and social issues. Had they been in a majority of seats, they would've found ways to worsen that aspect of our lives as well. I'm just very saddened by the fact that Mr.Martin is a conservative at heart and wants to forward projects like the Star Wars antimissile project of W.Bush, and cutting blindly in social services to repay debt, and of course he's got friends in the big corporations: he used to have one himself.

Damn, why didn't Sheila Copps win the leadership of the libs?She was leaning to the left, instead of the right.

Oh, wait, that's because Martin had lots of $$$ and she didn't.Money sure rules our world, doesn't it? :(

The Canadians voted their liberal socialists in -- another reason why I will never cross the Lake Superior from my Michigan UP and visit Canada....

Me!

Our liberals are socialist only in comparison with your uber-right-wing-fundamentalistic-zealot of a president, chump. Around here the liberals pretend to be socialist, while in fact being center-right on economic issues. The NDP is the only really socialist party we have.

You're voicing one of my main apprehensions about the current government. Still, it's better that way: at least we get progress on moral and social issues. Had they been in a majority of seats, they would've found ways to worsen that aspect of our lives as well. I'm just very saddened by the fact that Mr.Martin is a conservative at heart and wants to forward projects like the Star Wars antimissile project of W.Bush, and cutting blindly in social services to repay debt, and of course he's got friends in the big corporations: he used to have one himself.

Damn, why didn't Sheila Copps win the leadership of the libs?She was leaning to the left, instead of the right.

Oh, wait, that's because Martin had lots of $$$ and she didn't.Money sure rules our world, doesn't it? :(

Martin isn't even close to a conservative.

Sheila Copps didn't win, because she didn't have the support and was essentially a Chretien cronie. After his departure her "usefulness" was ended. She also represents a shrinking part of the Liberal party that once had Alan Rock as its champion and that branch has been set aside. Martin took over the organisation of the party, replaced the executive with his own and overall dominated the party organisation/riding associations while Chretien was PM. Had Mrs.Copps won, I don't believe the Liberals would have won a minority or a majority government, she has a tendency for "Foot in Mouth" disease.

Our liberals are socialist only in comparison with your uber-right-wing-fundamentalistic-zealot of a president, chump. Around here the liberals pretend to be socialist, while in fact being center-right on economic issues. The NDP is the only really socialist party we have.

Boy, a Canadian who is insulting President Bush...how original.... :rolleyes:

Me!

Martin isn't even close to a conservative.

Sheila Copps didn't win, because she didn't have the support and was essentially a Chretien cronie. After his departure her "usefulness" was ended. She also represents a shrinking part of the Liberal party that once had Alan Rock as its champion and that branch has been set aside. Martin took over the organisation of the party, replaced the executive with his own and overall dominated the party organisation/riding associations while Chretien was PM. Had Mrs.Copps won, I don't believe the Liberals would have won a minority or a majority government, she has a tendency for "Foot in Mouth" disease.

Fine, calling Martin conservative was a stretch :-P let's say he agrees with conservatives on some points. Overall, he's more center-right than anything, though. As you said, he might not be close to being a conservative, but he's even farther from being a socialist.

That shrinking part of liberal party, as you say, has been grumbling since the end of elections at having being set aside. They were brushed off by Martin's poeple because they said they could save the sinking boat, but the results weren't on par with the expectations. I hear there's a lot of discontent in the liberal party as of late: Martin will have to try to make peace between both sides if he wants to keep his influence.It's too soon to speak of a split, but it's a possibility that might come to pass.

As for Sheila, the "foot in the mouth" tendency was shared by Chretien, which didn't prevent from being elected again and again. Being that she leaned slightly to the left, I would've preferred her over Martin anytime. Like I said, she didn't win leadership because Martin had more funding and could promise more. I remember hearing the figures of the funds for their repective campaigns, and even though I can't remember the exact numbers, I remember Martin had several times as much money as her to run his campaign. I'm just too lazy to do a search to back it up

Fine, calling Martin conservative was a stretch :-P let's say he agrees with conservatives on some points. Overall, he's more center-right than anything, though. As you said, he might not be close to being a conservative, but he's even farther from being a socialist.

That shrinking part of liberal party, as you say, has been grumbling since the end of elections at having being set aside. They were brushed off by Martin's poeple because they said they could save the sinking boat, but the results weren't on par with the expectations. I hear there's a lot of discontent in the liberal party as of late: Martin will have to try to make peace between both sides if he wants to keep his influence.It's too soon to speak of a split, but it's a possibility that might come to pass.

As for Sheila, the "foot in the mouth" tendency was shared by Chretien, which didn't prevent from being elected again and again. Being that she leaned slightly to the left, I would've preferred her over Martin anytime. Like I said, she didn't win leadership because Martin had more funding and could promise more. I remember hearing the figures of the funds for their repective campaigns, and even though I can't remember the exact numbers, I remember Martin had several times as much money as her to run his campaign. I'm just too lazy to do a search to back it up

Aye Martin did have a substantial war chest for his campaign, so much so, that the leftover was added to the overall Liberal funds. I agree he's more right then Chretien, but not in the CPC conservative genre.

Chretien had a certain amount of leverage within the party and amongst media reporters. He earned the respect of everyone, because he was considered a powerful individual. Hell I hated his politics, but I can appreciate the fact he was a very cunning politicien. Even after his dumb "Proof" monologue his image wasn't dented. Chretien had something Sheila doesn't have: respectability and grudging respect after decades of service in parliament. Sheila has never had the type of profile that Chretien enjoyed. At least in my eyes.

The longevity of the present government depends msotly on wheter or not it's willing to commit to a long-term alliance or not. If they chose to compromise with the NDP or bloc for support, and kept their end of the bargain, they could last for the entire term. If they try to juggle votes and support from all three other parties, sooner or later it'll crumble under their feets.
True. From my limited understanding of parlimentary politics, coalitions are often formed. But they are often for a time of need, like a war. Besides, Canadian unity isn't very strong right now, and with Bloc Quebecois around, it should stir up the pot, no?

This election most distressed me...

Not because my favoured party lost (Conservatives), I never expected them to win.

Not because my home province was again duped into voting Liberal.

But because voter turnout was at an all time low ...60.1% I think it was. This is a sad day for Canadian politics... Canadians are forsaking the democratic system because of the policies that have corrupted our system.

Policies that have been pioneered by our most precious Liberal party.

True. From my limited understanding of parlimentary politics, coalitions are often formed. But they are often for a time of need, like a war. Besides, Canadian unity isn't very strong right now, and with Bloc Quebecois around, it should stir up the pot, no?

I don't really agree about the canadian unity issue. Even though the bloc is a separatist party, they based their campaign on the grudge the Québécois have against the libs because of the scandal. And, in my opinion, also to get revenge on our provincial liberal government who had the lowest approval rating of the last 25 years or si after only 1 year in power.

The Bloc won mostly in retribution to the liberal's mistakes and mismanagement.

But the reason those votes went to the bloc are many. Québec has never been conservative, and I think it never will be.Overall, our society leans a little more on the left than the rest of Canada on economic issues, and a LOT more on the left on social and civil issues. That's why the progressive-conservatives rarely had more than a handful of seats, and that the new conservatives have no seats at all.

The NDP was left behind because most see the Bloc as a more serious and viable alternative (although thanks to the NDP's good performance that might change in ulterior elections). The fact that Bloc are left-leaning in their civil and social policies, and that they often vote in accordance with the NDP worked in favor to gain them the support of the left.

Add to those votes the votes of the separatists, and that's why the Bloc had such good results. But the separatists by themselves number less than they used to at the last referendum, which was lost by half a percent(50.5 NO and 49.5 YES). I think I saw polls estimating them to be somewhere around 35-40% to still want to separate. I know it's plausible: I'm one of those who formerly though separation would be best, but I've changed my mind since.

This election most distressed me...

Not because my favoured party lost (Conservatives), I never expected them to win.

Not because my home province was again duped into voting Liberal.

But because voter turnout was at an all time low ...60.1% I think it was. This is a sad day for Canadian politics... Canadians are forsaking the democratic system because of the policies that have corrupted our system.

Policies that have been pioneered by our most precious Liberal party.

I don't share your political views, but I do share your sadness at seeing such a low participation rate. I know I was thrilled to finally get my chance to vote (I missed the last elections by a few months).

But the reason those votes went to the bloc are many. Québec has never been conservative, and I think it never will be.Overall, our society leans a little more on the left than the rest of Canada on economic issues, and a LOT more on the left on social and civil issues. That's why the progressive-conservatives rarely had more than a handful of seats, and that the new conservatives have no seats at all.


I agree with most of what you said except for this part.

Quebecers have in the past elected provincial conservatives many times and they were "Old Style" conservatives. As far back as 1867, we had conservatives winning seats in Quebec under Cauchon and Chauveau. The last provincial conservative was elected in 1939. Quebec was once heavily conservative and lorded over by the Catholic Church. Quebec only began to shift to the Left during the Quiet Revolution and the ensuing liberalization.

....But the separatists by themselves number less than they used to at the last referendum, which was lost by half a percent(50.5 NO and 49.5 YES). I think I saw polls estimating them to be somewhere around 35-40%.
My sister lives in Montreal...she says next referendum they will be over 51%...Cos most of the new voters(youth) are very nationalistic...
And senior citizens are passing away(less no votes)

Quebecers have in the past elected provincial conservatives many times and they were "Old Style" conservatives. As far back as 1867, we had conservatives winning seats in Quebec under Cauchon and Chauveau. The last provincial conservative was elected in 1939. Quebec was once heavily conservative and lorded over by the Catholic Church. Quebec only began to shift to the Left during the Quiet Revolution and the ensuing liberalization.

Indeed, you are well-informed. I guess my phraseology of "we have never conservative" was a bit hyperbolic. Still, no conservatives for 65 years seems like forever when you're 21 years old and voted for the first time three weeks ago ;)

My sister lives in Montreal...she says next referendum they will be over 51%...Cos most of the new voters(youth) are very nationalistic...
And senior citizens are passing away(less no votes)

As a separatist who had a change of heart, I disagree. A lot of the middle-aged separatists (35-55 yo) who used to support the idea of separation got fed up and don't even want to hear of a referendum. So, unless the next one is in like 20-30 years from now, no, I don't think it would pass.

Maybe the real question is how and when the government will fail, and who will tip it over the edge?

The Conservatives have made major gains, but they need to get their policies together to prove themselves to Canadians. The last election it looked like they were hiding too much, but they didn't even have a policy convention yet so they were very restricted in what they could say officially was party policy.

The Liberals under Martin have thrown more mud then I thought they had. This election did sink to new lows. Then the hypocrisy of Martin to complain when others make similar statements is ludicrous.

Indeed, you are well-informed. I guess my phraseology of "we have never conservative" was a bit hyperbolic. Still, no conservatives for 65 years seems like forever when you're 21 years old and voted for the first time three weeks ago ;)

I'm not that much older, only 23.:P

Conservatism was rather common in Quebec, just the old form died out in Quebec pretty fast after Duplessis. Technically we was also a Conservative, but he used things like the Padlock law to suppress unions. He was also in league with the Church, so he didn't really qualify as a conservative anymore. If you include the Union Nationale then the last time a Conservative won was in 1973, but by then the party was dead and Quebec voters became disenfranchised with Duplessis' conservatism, though I'd qualify it him more as a mini-dictator.

I need coffee...I feel old...