NationStates Jolt Archive

And by death penalty, I'm excluding the beheading and unlawful executions.

I'm talking about capital punishment fit for a tried criminal.

My hypothese is that those who have grown up hearing/seeing people receive the death penalty for most of their life, would likely be pro-capital punishment.

And those who have grown up where capital punishment is banned, will likely be against it.

I associate this with the issue of slavery, circa 1850-1960, in the United States. Those that have grown up in the North (slavery was banned there) were largely anti-slavery, seeing as how it was banned, and they have (for the most part) never really witnessed slavery in action NOR how Southerners used/treated the slaves.
And children that have grown in the South (where slavery was everywhere) have seen slaves all their life (for the most part again) and shrug it off, seeing as it is a part of life. Thus, they are pro-slavery, mostly, because they grew up with it.

So, this is my stand. You see the four choices. Ready, set, go!

Well it's certainly not banned here... and I'm not sure I know enough about the subject to be for/against it specifically. I lean towards against, but my feelings can't stand up to a real debate.

I support the death penalty strongly.

Why are you excluding beheading?

P.S. The correct spelling is hypothesis.

I think that capital murder should be banned, but reserved for the loathed few. There is always that guy that everyone hates. Maybe there should be a nationwide poll? Just give him hard HARD labor...

Why are you excluding beheading?


because capital punishment is state-sponsored whereas the beheadings is more similar to what is typically considered murder.

if you're going to count the beheadings as capital punishment, then your average hit and run is also capital punishment. duh.


i'm against it. with the number of people who are found innocent after 20, 30 years, it's not such a great idea. if they'd been killed 5 years after conviction, then they wouldn't have been cleared in time for it to be a reversable sentence.
how many innocent people have been executed in the u.s., exactly? or do they not like to keep track of that.

I must admit I'm puzzled by my own response. I've seen reams of data on just how little the death penalty does, how its cheaper to keep criminals locked away for their entire lives, how often mistakes are made, how there are less than no deterance values for criminals by allowing the death penalty as an option.

I've grown up in a state in the US where the Death penalty has been used recently, on a rather horrible confessed killer. I've not had much experience with the death penalty but I've lived with it in the background of my life I guess. I'm still for it. I believe that the law should reserve the right to end the life of those who have been PROVEN guilty.

What I CAN say, is that I think massive reforms are needed in the Death Penalty cases. Long story short, one can convict on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" but I think the death penalty should be reserved for "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt" or something like that.

I dunno, if it were banned in my state I wouldn't complain a whit about it, but since it is still allowed here I simply want the state to be VERY sure its not killing innocent people.

Why are you excluding beheading?


because capital punishment is state-sponsored whereas the beheadings is more similar to what is typically considered murder.

if you're going to count the beheadings as capital punishment, then your average hit and run is also capital punishment. duh.
...
Ease up on weed and find out how executions are conducted in Saudi Arabia. :wink:

The simple fact that innocents are indeed, sometimes dragged into the mess brings in a nice question I must ask to all nations that banned the death penalty

If an innocent man is sentencted to what could've been the death penalty, but is instead sentenced to life in prison, and is 30-50 years later proven innocent...is this as bad as killing the man? You've imprisioned the man for over 30 years, gave him terrible memories, had him raped a few times, given him crap to eat and a roommate named "Bubba"....and what do you say? Opps? Too bad you can;t have those years back?!?!?

The simple fact that innocents are indeed, sometimes dragged into the mess brings in a nice question I must ask to all nations that banned the death penalty

If an innocent man is sentencted to what could've been the death penalty, but is instead sentenced to life in prison, and is 30-50 years later proven innocent...is this as bad as killing the man? You've imprisioned the man for over 30 years, gave him terrible memories, had him raped a few times, given him crap to eat and a roommate named "Bubba"....and what do you say? Opps? Too bad you can;t have those years back?!?!?

I'm in Canada, where we haven't had a legal execution since about 1962.

Like all countries where capital punishment has been abolished, we've been rewarded with a drop in our per-capita murder rates.

I love living in a country that has evolved beyond capital punishment, and I'll do everything in my power to ensure we never backslide into having it again.

I'm in Canada, where we haven't had a legal execution since about 1962.

Like all countries where capital punishment has been abolished, we've been rewarded with a drop in our per-capita murder rates.

I love living in a country that has evolved beyond capital punishment, and I'll do everything in my power to ensure we never backslide into having it again.
this is a place where reasonable people do not call other reasonable people unevolved.

Either edit out that crap or...I'll tell on you![/elementary]

i havent lived with it all my life, but since i came to america, yes, i have lived with the lurking knowledge that people are being injected with poison to repay for their crimes.

I, however, am staunchly against the horrid practice. A human life should never be taken, even upon a unanimous decision that they deserve it. Every human can become a working member of society once more.

this is a place where reasonable people do not call other reasonable people unevolved.

Either edit out that crap or...I'll tell on you![/elementary]

It's my immoveable belief that to abolish capital punshment *is* an act of social evolution and a victory of Reason over primitive emotion. I don't mean to be disrespectful or to call-names by stating this, but I can't help it if someone chooses to be illogically insulted by my beliefs.

this is a place where reasonable people do not call other reasonable people unevolved.

Either edit out that crap or...I'll tell on you![/elementary]

It's my immoveable belief that to abolish capital punshment *is* an act of social evolution and a victory of Reason over primitive emotion. I don't mean to be disrespectful or to call-names by stating this, but I can't help it if someone chooses to be illogically insulted by my beliefs.Illogically insulted? Your slapping my country in the face!..backsliding...evolving...being rewarded....gawd....

Whatever, you said what I wanted you to say.

Illogically insulted? Your slapping my country in the face!..backsliding...evolving...being rewarded....gawd....

But aren't there individual states in the U.S. which don't have capital punishment? And a whole lot of Americans who believe capital punishment is wrong? Since there's no national consensus in the U.S. about capital punishment, to critique the practice is not at all a "slap in the face" to your whole country. Agreed?

Illogically insulted? Your slapping my country in the face!..backsliding...evolving...being rewarded....gawd....

But aren't there individual states in the U.S. which don't have capital punishment? And a whole lot of Americans who believe capital punishment is wrong? Since there's no national consensus in the U.S. about capital punishment, to critique the practice is not at all a "slap in the face" to your whole country. Agreed?
By country, I could've meant my NS country. :wink:

nothing wrong with shocking some scumbag...

http://aimforsaken.250free.com/seph.gif

I was 17 when they banned the death penalty in Canada. Up until my late 20's, I was in favour of capital punishment. Since I served as a juror on a murder trial (no death penalty), I have totally reversed my opinion. The death penalty I believe is barbaric and uncivilized. It also results in innocent people dying (oops mistake, oops too late). Even with DNA testing, I am dead set (pun intended) against the death penalty.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0812-01.htm

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110

However, your hypothesis is somewhat faulty. Although the death penalty was abolished in Canada in 1976, and the murder rate has dropped, approximately 70% of Canadians would like to have it re-instated. Why? I have no idea why. It makes zero sense.

BTW, States that don't have the death penalty, also have experienced a drop in murder rates:

Cost, Deterrence, Incapacitation, Brutalization and the Death Penalty
The Scientific Evidence

http://dpa.state.ky.us/library/advocate/jan00/dppotter.html

The Case Against The Death Penalty

http://users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html

Most "western" societies have banned the death penalty, the US is lumped in with many 3rd world countries in maintaining the death penalty:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

Good luck on your research.

And by death penalty, I'm excluding the beheading and unlawful executions.

I'm talking about capital punishment fit for a tried criminal.

My hypothese is that those who have grown up hearing/seeing people receive the death penalty for most of their life, would likely be pro-capital punishment.

And those who have grown up where capital punishment is banned, will likely be against it.

I associate this with the issue of slavery, circa 1850-1960, in the United States. Those that have grown up in the North (slavery was banned there) were largely anti-slavery, seeing as how it was banned, and they have (for the most part) never really witnessed slavery in action NOR how Southerners used/treated the slaves.
And children that have grown in the South (where slavery was everywhere) have seen slaves all their life (for the most part again) and shrug it off, seeing as it is a part of life. Thus, they are pro-slavery, mostly, because they grew up with it.

So, this is my stand. You see the four choices. Ready, set, go!

Interesting theory. Too bad hardly anyone whos responded has mentioned whether they grew up with it or not. You're right with me though, I'm against the death penilty and it hasn't been law in this country since the 1950s.

Although the death penalty was abolished in Canada in 1976, and the murder rate has dropped, approximately 70% of Canadians would like to have it re-instated. Why? I have no idea why. It makes zero sense.

Thankfully Canada's courts and governments have been wiser than the mistaken majority on this matter. Hopefully after Monday we can still count on that.

Considering that I lie in an evolved society that has no death penalty anymore since quite some time (unlike the barbaric United States of A), I am happy to say that I dont miss the death penalty neither do I support it. Actually the recent UN resolution to ban it was from me, but obviously more stoneage people play NS than evolved people who have thought about the issue a little...

Interesting theory. Too bad hardly anyone whos responded has mentioned whether they grew up with it or not.

...which is why he built the answer to that question into the poll...

I think that your point is a good one, re what people are accustomed to.

As an Australian, I have not grown up with the idea of capital punishment.

I would be curious to hear from those who have. I don't really see much point in capital punishment unless it really does act as a deterrent. And that does not appear to be the case. The figures on crime seem unrelated.

West Germany abolished the death penalty 1949 in the basic law (article 102). That could be changed by a two-third majority in both chambers of parliament. No party which is represented in parliament is for the death penalty.
Cynics say that Germany only banned the death penalty in order to avoid mass executions of many people involved in the crimes of world war II or the Holocaust.
By the way: communists East Germany banned the death penalty only in 1987 and used it occanionaly up until that time.
The UK banned it in 1963 - I think - and France only in 1981.
After outrageous murderers - e.g. on children after they were raped - opinion polls suggests that a majority are in favour of the death penalty. But after a little time this number drops the opponents of it are in the majority again.
I don´t see the need to re-instate it since it is proven that it is not a deterrent to crime.
However: I wouldn´t say that countries who still practise is should abolish it. If you have a working state and security infrastructure and can enshure that most killings and killers are found (in Germany the perpetrators of killing are found in more than 90% of the detected cases) you have a good deterrent of crime.

I think it is an issue which should remain in the disgreacion of the sovereign states. It is a non-UN issue here in Nation states as well as in the real world

I’m torn on the subject. On one hand the death penalty is an easy way out of trouble. On the other hand you save very important resources by killing them off.

How about his. Executions for moderate crimes and hard labor for more severe crimes.

You make a good point however there will always be people who grow up with something and not like it.

Considering that I lie in an evolved society that has no death penalty anymore since quite some time (unlike the barbaric United States of A), I am happy to say that I dont miss the death penalty neither do I support it. Actually the recent UN resolution to ban it was from me, but obviously more stoneage people play NS than evolved people who have thought about the issue a little...
Oh get off you freakin pedestal you ad hoc using, self righteous, ego boosting, flame baiter. Your views are no better than anyone else’s. There is no reason to pat yourself on the back while trying to kick everyone else down because they don't share your beliefs. I'm sure that many people have given great thought and weighed the situation accordingly and still support the death penalty.

The simple fact that innocents are indeed, sometimes dragged into the mess brings in a nice question I must ask to all nations that banned the death penalty

If an innocent man is sentencted to what could've been the death penalty, but is instead sentenced to life in prison, and is 30-50 years later proven innocent...is this as bad as killing the man? You've imprisioned the man for over 30 years, gave him terrible memories, had him raped a few times, given him crap to eat and a roommate named "Bubba"....and what do you say? Opps? Too bad you can;t have those years back?!?!?



Maybe we should take the gobs of money that we waste on the military here in the US and put it into improving prisons and making them not like that. But personally, I don't think we should have prisons, maybe Temporary Detention Centers, but nothing more, and I think the worst sentence should be Life on Probation. If someone keeps commiting crimes against the public, he will eventually be beaten down/shot by a law-abiding citizen, so, there ya go, no need for a death penalty or even prison.

Strange - when I did a topic on the death penalty most people seemed to oppose it. Then why is the 'Ban the Death Penalty' resolution failing?

Strange - when I did a topic on the death penalty most people seemed to oppose it. Then why is the 'Ban the Death Penalty' resolution failing?
Just because somebody opposes it doesn’t mean that they would want to all out ban it for everybody.

I live in the U.S., where the death penalty is legal, and in Ohio, where people get executed. I have grown to hate the death penalty. It's way too problematic. There are too many issues with it to make it work correctly or as intended. Too many innocents die, too much money is wasted on the appeals process, and somehow I don't think it's actually lowering major crime (I have heard that it does and I have heard that it makes it worse - my guess is it doesn't really have much of an effect.)

i said i grew up with the death penalty because i live in the US. but i grew up in the state of maine which has never had a death penalty (i hope that hasnt changed since i moved)

i am against the death penalty but not for the usual reasons.

i dont give a damn about the life of some vile nasty baby killer like tim mcveigh (oklahoma city bombing) too bad they couldnt have a way to kill him before he set that bomb.

the death penalty is bad for the rest of us.

1) its bad to incite bloodlust in society. it coarsens all of us

2) its bad to leave the mourning families of the victims to spend 10-20 years longing for the state sponsored murder of another human being. when you have the punishment be "life in prison without possibility of parole" its OVER. well the legal part is anyway, you never "get over" a loved one being murdered. but at least the family can stop focusing on the murderer and start focusing on the life of their deceased loved one.

3) its bad for those people whose loved one's death isnt considered "good" enough for the killer to face the death penalty. the niece of a friend of mine was killed in albuquerque for the gold rims on her car. her murderer wasnt even up for the death penalty. what a slap in the face for her family. the ultimate diss, your loved one isnt worth our full legal penalties


4) and of course the abuse of the court system to railroad poor innocent people. prosecutors get so wrapped up in winning that they, (from time to time and not ALL), get to the point where they will do anything to win. even supress evidence that would exonerate the accused. the rich seem to get off ( oj simpson ) while the poor get talked into making false confessions.


and yes its bad for an innocent man to spend 30 years in prison for a crime he didnt commit ( although that guy who assassinated the dutch PM candidate got a sentence of less than 20 years) at least he CAN be let out. you cant be let out of the grave.

I live in the U.K., (no capital punishment), and I'm against C.P. for several reasons.
One is that, as others have pointed out, it's permanent and irreversible, so mistakes can't be corrected. Having a period of incarceration first should help with this (appeals process), but it doesn't seem to help enough (in the U.S. at least).
The other is the same reason I'm against abortion, euthanasia, murder, and war. A human life, any human life, has immense value; to end a life is to decide that that person should experience no more joy or love in their life, that they should have no more opportunity to do good. That's a big decision to make, too big, IMO, for anyone except the Almighty.

Mark Fiore offers a pretty good insight to Capital Punishment: Clicky (http://www.markfiore.com/animation/execution.html)

Why are you excluding beheading?


because capital punishment is state-sponsored whereas the beheadings is more similar to what is typically considered murder.

if you're going to count the beheadings as capital punishment, then your average hit and run is also capital punishment. duh.
...
Ease up on weed and find out how executions are conducted in Saudi Arabia. :wink:

I think s/he's talking about the "executions" of hostages recently.

I would be for it if our legal system were sufficiently objective to make such desicions. A murderer forfeits his/er right to live. But our system and every other system I am aware of is unable to mete it out properly, without regard for race or class. Maybe there are some that could, maybe a Scandinavian Liberal Paradise, but they don't generally execute.

Capital punishment i'm for and againist. If a person does something horrific. Like what happen on 9/11 with all the killings of innocent people. That was going on with there daily lives. And they know that whoses for sure behind it. The people behind it should get the capital punishment. but otherwise, regular crimes that normally go on. the person(s) should be put on trail and be really carefully sentenced

Considering that I lie in an evolved society that has no death penalty anymore since quite some time (unlike the barbaric United States of A), I am happy to say that I dont miss the death penalty neither do I support it. Actually the recent UN resolution to ban it was from me, but obviously more stoneage people play NS than evolved people who have thought about the issue a little...Nice, I suppose you (as another person earlier said) patted yourself on the back and reassured yourself that you are superior to everyone that supports the death penalty.

Kinda sad...if you think your society is so evolved when your RL nation is most likely worse off than my NS nation.

The simple fact that innocents are indeed, sometimes dragged into the mess brings in a nice question I must ask to all nations that banned the death penalty

If an innocent man is sentencted to what could've been the death penalty, but is instead sentenced to life in prison, and is 30-50 years later proven innocent...is this as bad as killing the man? You've imprisioned the man for over 30 years, gave him terrible memories, had him raped a few times, given him crap to eat and a roommate named "Bubba"....and what do you say? Opps? Too bad you can;t have those years back?!?!?



Maybe we should take the gobs of money that we waste on the military here in the US and put it into improving prisons and making them not like that. But personally, I don't think we should have prisons, maybe Temporary Detention Centers, but nothing more, and I think the worst sentence should be Life on Probation. If someone keeps commiting crimes against the public, he will eventually be beaten down/shot by a law-abiding citizen, so, there ya go, no need for a death penalty or even prison.
would you rather be in an American prison or a Mexican prison?

Honestly, your going to get raped even if the jail happens to be clean, sparkly, and have butlers at every corner. Now, unless you segregate the genders in jails, I see no difference.

so far my poll is showing some results that support my hypothese (sp?)

However, another 50 or so votes would be great.

Capital punishment i'm for and againist. If a person does something horrific. Like what happen on 9/11 with all the killings of innocent people. That was going on with there daily lives. And they know that whoses for sure behind it. The people behind it should get the capital punishment. but otherwise, regular crimes that normally go on. the person(s) should be put on trail and be really carefully sentenced
The absolute WORST thing you could do to those terrorists is jail them for the rest of their lives. You do them a favour by executing them, or haven't you read about suicide bombers.

Can you imagine how they would feel if they had to spend 40 or 50 years in captivity of the "infidels"?

Capital punishment i'm for and againist. If a person does something horrific. Like what happen on 9/11 with all the killings of innocent people. That was going on with there daily lives. And they know that whoses for sure behind it. The people behind it should get the capital punishment. but otherwise, regular crimes that normally go on. the person(s) should be put on trail and be really carefully sentenced
The absolute WORST thing you could do to those terrorists is jail them for the rest of their lives. You do them a favour by executing them, or haven't you read about suicide bombers.

Can you imagine how they would feel if they had to spend 40 or 50 years in captivity of the "infidels"?Having to share a jail with the unclean, that would be misery.

Capital punishment i'm for and againist. If a person does something horrific. Like what happen on 9/11 with all the killings of innocent people. That was going on with there daily lives. And they know that whoses for sure behind it. The people behind it should get the capital punishment. but otherwise, regular crimes that normally go on. the person(s) should be put on trail and be really carefully sentenced
The absolute WORST thing you could do to those terrorists is jail them for the rest of their lives. You do them a favour by executing them, or haven't you read about suicide bombers.

Can you imagine how they would feel if they had to spend 40 or 50 years in captivity of the "infidels"?
Their comrades speaking of American cops letting them get raped, feeding them terrible food...

Heh, I'd love to see the terrorists in our County Jails....

The simple fact that innocents are indeed, sometimes dragged into the mess brings in a nice question I must ask to all nations that banned the death penalty

If an innocent man is sentencted to what could've been the death penalty, but is instead sentenced to life in prison, and is 30-50 years later proven innocent...is this as bad as killing the man? You've imprisioned the man for over 30 years, gave him terrible memories, had him raped a few times, given him crap to eat and a roommate named "Bubba"....and what do you say? Opps? Too bad you can;t have those years back?!?!?
This has happened in Canada several times and generally what happens, is that the innocent person receives fairly significant monetary compensation.

Besides, what if it is only 1 year, maybe 5, what does it matter if eventually he is found innocent? Are you going to judge that his life in jail is going to be hell? Perhaps he reads all the books in the library or writes a book that might be helpful to society. Maybe he finds "Bubba" attractive?

Many of those who were jailed in Canada and were innocent, were able to see their families and friends.

One thing I know is that you can't bring them back to life.

Another thing that amazes me on these threads, are the "pro-lifers", that support the death penalty, even if there is a chance that innocent people may be put to death. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

capital punishment is ok if applied fairly and it rarely is

capital punishment is ok if applied fairly and it rarely isApplying it to murderers is not fair?

I believe we should take society's murders and stone them to death. I mean, that's what the Bible says, isn't it? Haha! Yarrr! That's how the US is run today anyway! By 2000 year-old superstition!

capital punishment is ok if applied fairly and it rarely isApplying it to murderers is not fair?who was the last rich murderer on death row?

capital punishment is ok if applied fairly and it rarely isApplying it to murderers is not fair?who was the last rich murderer on death row?It would have been O.J. Simpson, but the black jury let him to send a message to "whitey".

capital punishment is ok if applied fairly and it rarely isApplying it to murderers is not fair?who was the last rich murderer on death row?It would have been O.J. Simpson, but the black jury let him to send a message to "whitey".

Sure :roll: