NationStates Jolt Archive

Say the U.S. falls from power within the decade. *winces*

anyways, do you think the outcome is a political free-for-all? Perhaps another Dark Age as nations see no reason to not invade other nations?

Sure, Europe is there. But what can Europe do after their biggest and most powerful ally, America, has fallen? What if they're already too busy defending themselves from invaders?

Too many rogue nations have nuclear capacity. A nuclear war is likely.

My thoughts...YOURS?

I don't quite think that the US is the only reason countries aren't nuking each other. Other countries ARE smart enough to realise what a nuclear war would do. I've said it before, only one country has ever used a nuclear bomb in war.

You really think Europe has no military at all huh? Even if, if we can defend ourselves, then thats enough for me.

Depends on what kind of fall you're talking about--military? economic? political? a combination? And when the US falls, does it try to take anyone else with it?

Way too many variables to deal with.

Depends on what kind of fall you're talking about--military? economic? political? a combination? And when the US falls, does it try to take anyone else with it?

Way too many variables to deal with.

I'm going with you on this. Even at my best, my mind couldn't possibly predict something involving that many variables.

Depends on what kind of fall you're talking about--military? economic? political? a combination? And when the US falls, does it try to take anyone else with it?

Way too many variables to deal with.Regardless of how, if the US falls the way things stand today, everyone goes with it.

If anyone has read Zalmay Khalilzad's article on hegemony and a post-hegemonic world, i applaud you... everyone else, i suggest you read it it's extremely enlightening read, a post-american-hegemonic world would be chaos, massive terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and nuclear strikes all over the world, countries will compete for regional hegemonic status in a power vaccum that the US leaves, causing nuclear exchange at some point, this leads the the scenario in which global nuclear exchange is initiated... so guess what happens? (that's rhetorical)... US hegemony is the best thing since sliced bread, an collapse of united states would be disastor beyond calculation

You really think Europe has no military at all huh? Even if, if we can defend ourselves, then thats enough for me.

Just curious, Gigatron, but what country are you from?

If anyone has read Zalmay Khalilzad's article on hegemony and a post-hegemonic world, i applaud you... everyone else, i suggest you read it it's extremely enlightening read, a post-american-hegemonic world would be chaos, massive terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and nuclear strikes all over the world, countries will compete for regional hegemonic status in a power vaccum that the US leaves, causing nuclear exchange at some point, this leads the the scenario in which global nuclear exchange is initiated... so guess what happens? (that's rhetorical)... US hegemony is the best thing since sliced bread, an collapse of united states would be disastor beyond calculationKinda like the collapse of rome was?

Say the U.S. falls from power within the decade. *winces*

anyways, do you think the outcome is a political free-for-all? Perhaps another Dark Age as nations see no reason to not invade other nations?

Sure, Europe is there. But what can Europe do after their biggest and most powerful ally, America, has fallen? What if they're already too busy defending themselves from invaders?

Too many rogue nations have nuclear capacity. A nuclear war is likely.

My thoughts...YOURS?

Ahem.

The EU. The AU. ASEAN. Theres your answer. Screw america for all i care, and plunder its land. use it as a cheap third world archeological dig for all i care.

Europe has 700 million people. that can beat the shit outta the US if combined, as the EU is proceeding to accomplish(no official statements on an army, but eh, its damn likely.)

The AU is all african nations united together, it was formed just a few years ago and is following along the footsteps of its big brother, the EU.

ASEAN im not so clear on, but it keeps SE asia pretty stable.

Contrary to many conservative american minds, most nations on earth could do fine without it. Anyway, when was the last time i saw a toy stamped 'Made in America' in europe? i think when i was 1 or something, back in 89. i bet that habit died even before that. the US is just another big empire doomed to fall due to corrupt politicians, war, idiot leaders, and impotent people.
:wink:

Say the U.S. falls from power within the decade. *winces*

anyways, do you think the outcome is a political free-for-all? Perhaps another Dark Age as nations see no reason to not invade other nations?

Sure, Europe is there. But what can Europe do after their biggest and most powerful ally, America, has fallen? What if they're already too busy defending themselves from invaders?

Too many rogue nations have nuclear capacity. A nuclear war is likely.

My thoughts...YOURS?

Ahem.

The EU. The AU. ASEAN. Theres your answer. Screw america for all i care, and plunder its land. use it as a cheap third world archeological dig for all i care.

Europe has 700 million people. that can beat the shit outta the US if combined, as the EU is proceeding to accomplish(no official statements on an army, but eh, its damn likely.)

The AU is all african nations united together, it was formed just a few years ago and is following along the footsteps of its big brother, the EU.

ASEAN im not so clear on, but it keeps SE asia pretty stable.

Contrary to many conservative american minds, most nations on earth could do fine without it. Anyway, when was the last time i saw a toy stamped 'Made in America' in europe? i think when i was 1 or something, back in 89. i bet that habit died even before that. the US is just another big empire doomed to fall due to corrupt politicians, war, idiot leaders, and impotent people.
:wink:

See even with ASEAN, EU, NATO, UN and all other international organizations, that doesnt solve the problem of power vaccums and the loss of american hard power, do you have ANY idea how many US troops are being stationed worldwide to prevent "hotspots" from breaking out and how US exerts influence with extended deterrence? Minus that countries are MUCH more likely to aquire nuclear weapons, fund terrorist activities, or even being nuclear conflicts, the problem is that EU , ASEAN or any other group doesnt have the military might to do what US has done, bring stability through superiror firepower. And no, Europe definately does not have enough hard power to replace what US is doing now. And yes, it'll be like rome all over, it's the dark ages, except this time the collapse involves nuclear weapons

If anyone has read Zalmay Khalilzad's article on hegemony and a post-hegemonic world, i applaud you... everyone else, i suggest you read it it's extremely enlightening read, a post-american-hegemonic world would be chaos, massive terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and nuclear strikes all over the world, countries will compete for regional hegemonic status in a power vaccum that the US leaves, causing nuclear exchange at some point, this leads the the scenario in which global nuclear exchange is initiated... so guess what happens? (that's rhetorical)... US hegemony is the best thing since sliced bread, an collapse of united states would be disastor beyond calculationKinda like the collapse of rome was?When did the Romans have weapons capable of killing everything on the Earth? Was the world a different place when the Roman Empire around?

ahem. America created the mideast hotspot practically. wasting about 170,000 over there. Then if i remember you have some in Panama(oh no, that will explode!) and you are wasting about 100,000 in Korea. You also have some in Kosovo and the general Yugoslav area, and i believe some in pakistan and india to mediate there, but any other power could take that over. Norway has a tiny army and contributes selectively and has almost as good a record as america. Today the weaponry matters more than the number.

Also, many terrorist groups have the sole aim of watching america fall and western powers leave their lands in peace. us westerners turned the middle east into what it is today in the crusades and by battering it for years with colonialism and invasions(afghanistan in the 70s and 80s with the USSR where the 'eternal jihad' was declared by the mujahadeen, which is one of the roots of OBL today. Iran can be mediated. Korea can conjoin in war for all that matters, and china can restabalize that. Within 10 years the combined power of China and the EU will create two stable fronts. The only realy vacuum would be South America and North America(cept for Canada) since they are the most dependant on the US.

As for the influence thing, after Bush came to power he wrecked the political machine that is the US and has only done worse since. In any case, in the current state there would very little influential GOVERNMENT vacuum. As for the CORPORATION vacuum, that might be problematic although now as globalization becomes more popular, no real international influential bussiness has only 1 HQ that happens to be in the US.

There is also one more thing you are forgetting; Rome fell to Savages, America will fall to Anarchy and Prevalent High End Cultures from Abroad.

I agree that if America collapsed for some reason in the near future, the effects worldwide would be very major. America is the source of a lot of aid propping up some small nations, and the source of many materials that aren't produced in many other countries.
Perhaps Australia would need to take a more active role in Oceania.

Regardless as to how you feel about America, you can't deny that it fills a large hole in the power vacuum. Without the US, the UN loses the majority of its troops and funding, NATO loses the majority of its troops and funding, aid to many places would disappear, most of the forefront in space, fusion, and biological research would disappear, not to mention the trillions America pours into foreign markets.

ahem. America created the mideast hotspot practically. wasting about 170,000 over there. Then if i remember you have some in Panama(oh no, that will explode!) and you are wasting about 100,000 in Korea. You also have some in Kosovo and the general Yugoslav area, and i believe some in pakistan and india to mediate there, but any other power could take that over. Norway has a tiny army and contributes selectively and has almost as good a record as america. Today the weaponry matters more than the number.

Also, many terrorist groups have the sole aim of watching america fall and western powers leave their lands in peace. us westerners turned the middle east into what it is today in the crusades and by battering it for years with colonialism and invasions(afghanistan in the 70s and 80s with the USSR where the 'eternal jihad' was declared by the mujahadeen, which is one of the roots of OBL today. Iran can be mediated. Korea can conjoin in war for all that matters, and china can restabalize that. Within 10 years the combined power of China and the EU will create two stable fronts. The only realy vacuum would be South America and North America(cept for Canada) since they are the most dependant on the US.

As for the influence thing, after Bush came to power he wrecked the political machine that is the US and has only done worse since. In any case, in the current state there would very little influential GOVERNMENT vacuum. As for the CORPORATION vacuum, that might be problematic although now as globalization becomes more popular, no real international influential bussiness has only 1 HQ that happens to be in the US.

There is also one more thing you are forgetting; Rome fell to Savages, America will fall to Anarchy and Prevalent High End Cultures from Abroad.Did you forget that Europeans drew the borders that define the Middle East today?That the Panama canal is the life-line of globalisation? There are 30000 US troops in Korea? That American weaponery is second to none? That though other nations could assume the role of he US in world affairs none are willing? That Bush will only be around for 4 years(trust me)? That the worlds resentment of the US did not begin with Bush and will not end after he is gone? That 1 in every 4 automobiles maufactured on Earth is built by a US company or a company owned by a US company?

If anyone has read Zalmay Khalilzad's article on hegemony and a post-hegemonic world, i applaud you... everyone else, i suggest you read it it's extremely enlightening read, a post-american-hegemonic world would be chaos, massive terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and nuclear strikes all over the world, countries will compete for regional hegemonic status in a power vaccum that the US leaves, causing nuclear exchange at some point, this leads the the scenario in which global nuclear exchange is initiated... so guess what happens? (that's rhetorical)... US hegemony is the best thing since sliced bread, an collapse of united states would be disastor beyond calculation
I might give it a read, sounds interesting. Have you read "The Clash of the Civilizations" by Samual P Huntington? It might give a different perspective. He advocates that we allow each major civilization (in a loose sense of the word) run it's own affairs.

The civilizations he identifies are Western, Orthodox (Russia etc), Japan, Sinic (China etc), Buddhist, Latin, Islamic and possibly Africa (meaning you could possibly treat Africa as a coherent civilization, he's not saying Africa's uncivilized).

Generally speaking conflicts within a civilization are mediated by its hegemonic core state. In respective order, America, Russia, Japan, China, can't remember (doesn't seem important), Brazil.....The Moslem countries lack a core state (Pakistan? Iran? Saudi could do it if it didn't have such a corrupt govt) and this he identifies as a cause of conflict. South Africa could do it for Africa (maybe).

However, most of the important conflicts today happen along civilization "fault lines". Bosnia, Israel, Kashmir, Turkey, Chechnia etc. This could be because the Moslem nations lack a coherent leader to negotiate and impose a solution.

If America fell the Western nations would lack a clear leader (and it's leadership is being challanged anyway). Britain wouldn't be dictated to but France/Germany would try to assume leadership. I don't see this as a problem militarily speaking, nobody in the world has the power to invade continental Europe or even an isolated Britain. Japan or S. Korea might develop nuclear programs, Israel almost certainly would. Without America there'd probably be a few nuclear standoffs in the world but this might increase stability so long as there are no disasters. Peace through fear! Another dark age is out the question without a nuclear war. Science and Engineering are too widely know to disappear.

There would be a temporary recession but the market reacts quicker than the state. We'd end up with less wealth but the same level of employment as wage levels readjusted. The biggest danger is that people would mistakenly turn to hard core socialism and isolationism to "fix" the perceived problems in the same way people scratch a rash to "cure" the itch.

It's this sort of inflated sense of self importance that gives America a bad name. No, the world won't slip into a dark age if America implodes, just like it didn't when the Soviet Union collapsed. Life will go on and civilization will continue.

It's this sort of inflated sense of self importance that gives America a bad name. No, the world won't slip into a dark age if America implodes, just like it didn't when the Soviet Union collapsed. Life will go on and civilization will continue.Civilsation can mean so many things.

Civilization = all of mankind.

If America falls and doesnt take down the entire world in the process (with nuclear war or whatever), then the world will go on.

Civilization = all of mankind.

If America falls and doesnt take down the entire world in the process (with nuclear war or whatever), then the world will go on.There were barbaric men before civilsation and if civilsation falss they will riegn again. I think there would be a period of anarchy and barbarism if the US suddenly fell. I don't see any way it could be avoided.

With all due respect to the EU, the US represents the largest concentration of military, economic, political and cultural power in the world today. If the US collapsed, it would probably be due to a catastrophic event that would have enormous impact in any case. Even if they US did "implode" - and I've yet to see a plausible scenario for such an implosion - it would leave enormous gaps in terms of international trade (with so many economies being export dependent, who do you think buys all those exports?), international organizations (is the EU ready to completely replace the full US contribution to the UN, the IMF, the WB?) and international security (the EU has not yet constituted its own self-sufficient force and relies on NATO for security and the backbone of NATO is still the US). Would this mean a new dark ages? I don't know. But it would mean (a) a massive power vacuum that would invite competition - and possibly war - to fill, (b) severe global economic repercussions and (c) a lot more work for the other developed countries that would have to fill the gap.

:roll: The U.S. could fracture and spit in a fashion similar to the Soviet Union and there would be no serious repercusions. The export demand would still be there, the military would still be there, etc. etc., it would all just be spread among the emerging new nations. Once again I'll say that Americans inflate their importance in the world.

:roll: The U.S. could fracture and spit in a fashion similar to the Soviet Union and there would be no serious repercusions. The export demand would still be there, the military would still be there, etc. etc., it would all just be spread among the emerging new nations. Once again I'll say that Americans inflate their importance in the world.You underestimate the importance of the US as one entity. We, in the US, have no ethnic or regional or racial lines to draw. We are truly one nation, not a conglomeration of conquered peoples, like the USSR. Without the the US as a nation chaos would riegn here, as well as the world.

:roll: The U.S. could fracture and spit in a fashion similar to the Soviet Union and there would be no serious repercusions. The export demand would still be there, the military would still be there, etc. etc., it would all just be spread among the emerging new nations. Once again I'll say that Americans inflate their importance in the world.You underestimate the importance of the US as one entity. We, in the US, have no ethnic or regional or racial lines to draw. We are truly one nation, not a conglomeration of conquered peoples, like the USSR. Without the the US as a nation chaos would riegn here, as well as the world.
That's insane! Why would North and South Virginia fight each other or impose sanctions?

Yes, obviously if the US were to fall from power, then it would usher in a new Dark Age.

After all, we all recognise that the US id the depository of all knowledge and culture, right?

Hahaha.

BTW, I believe that instead of "Dark Ages", in these politically correct times, a title of "Differently Illuminated Ages" may be more appropriate.

:lol:

I think militarily, there might be flare ups, but the big problem would be that the world economy would probably collapse. Basically, there are three "powerhouse" world economies, all dependant upon one another for stability. The US, the EU, and Japan (including the other pacific countries).

I don't think the US is going to collapse in the way you're talking about. We're too arrogant to let that happen.

:roll: The U.S. could fracture and spit in a fashion similar to the Soviet Union and there would be no serious repercusions. The export demand would still be there, the military would still be there, etc. etc., it would all just be spread among the emerging new nations. Once again I'll say that Americans inflate their importance in the world.You underestimate the importance of the US as one entity. We, in the US, have no ethnic or regional or racial lines to draw. We are truly one nation, not a conglomeration of conquered peoples, like the USSR. Without the the US as a nation chaos would riegn here, as well as the world.
That's insane! Why would North and South Virginia fight each other or impose sanctions?I don't know wht you are talking about but it is very suspect, a to the factual nature of it. :lol:

First, let me start by saying I don't really keep up with the forum much, so if you actually want to reply to anything I say and expect an answer back, you're best off to Telegram me. Also, I'm not going to bother spell checking or proofreading this post.

Now, the fall of the US would without a doubt usher in a new dark age, one which would be dependent on how bad of a fall it really is.

I base my entire belief of this on Japan. Several years ago, when Japan's economy really tanked (not quite Mexico bad, but got fairly close. And technically I think it wass Brazil that started the whole mess, but economically speaking, they're not a major economic powerhouse.), it essentially set off a cascade effect that brought virtually all other economies down with it. Not as far, but it was enough to cause a recession in most countries in the world. And this wasn't even a serious economic crisis. It was bad, but it wasn't like the yin was going to be worthless tomorrow and Japan would fall apart, it was just a bad spot.

Now, how does that equate to an American collapse effect? Simple, Japan is the third biggest (GDP) economy in the world at $3.5 tril/year, right behind China at $6.5 and the US at $11. And where as China keeps a lot of its money inside the country, Japan is like the US in that they have heavy, heavy investment in foreign countries. If a country with a third the economic might of the US could cause scare in the world's economies good enough to cause a multi year recession but still not bad enough to cause their solvency to come into question, imagine what a collapse of the US economy would do if it happend rapidly and suddenly, i.e. the country ceases to exist in the span of a year or 2, or faster. The rest of the world would sink into a massive economic depression unlike any the world has ever seen before that would likely take at least a decade or more to recover from. And whenever things go that off course, countries start to have their own internal issues. Welcome to the spread of communism that occured in the middle of the century. Truth be told, I'm actually kind of surprised America didn't have a communist revolution in the '20s. But that's off topic. Suffice to say, if the economy goes, it will take a country with it. And make no mistake, the EU would feel the economic effects of a US collapse harder than anyone else. The Euro is now the most powerful currency (~.20 more than the dollar, much wider circulation than the pound.) in the world, and that would make a good buffer, but I'd be surprised if the EU managed to survive through a US collapse. The joys of a Confederation...

And this isn't even taking into account the various other issues already talked about here. The US military does provide a massive deterent effect throughout the world. If that were to suddenly go away, things would really go bad. Seoul would be turned into rubble in about half an hour, Israel would start popping nukes for one reason or another (Being invaded, feeling isolated and desprite, who knows), and most of Eastern Europe and the Middle East would likely erupt into civil or regional wars. And Africa. God help you if you live there in the event of an American collapse.

If the US errosion was more of a gradual one, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. If it took 100 years, or maybe even 50, then I think the world could handle itself. It would still take a toll, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as an overnight collapse.

But either way, barring a planet killing nuclear exchange (a big one. A real big one) life would still go on. Someone once said, "May you live in interesting times." Not necessarily good or bad, just interesting. And you can bet that you would most certainly be living in very interesting times if the US fell apart.

This is silly. When it comes down to it the wealth of a country depends on it's infrastructure, capital and the skills of the workers. None of these would be effected by the collapse of the US. There would be a short run depression (possibly a very deep depression) but the market would quickly relocate its new equilibrium (different wage level, interest rate etc) as long as the govt doesn't try to "help". Furthermore countries would adjust their militaries quickly, new alliances would form to replace dependency on America. Do you really think most countries are relatively peaceful because of fear of America? Don't be ridiculous. New regional hegemons would arise: China, India, South Africa, Brazil.

Moslem countries would probably go fundamentalist but fundamentalism contains a smidgin of democracy which could lead to pressure to liberalise such as in Iran. Also the Moslem world would gain greater unity and thus allow powerful factions to restrain terrorists. Israel would probably go nuclear leading to a cold war of sorts.

The peace of the world does not depend on American imperialism. The world economy would be wounded but not fatally.

You underestimate the importance of the US as one entity. We, in the US, have no ethnic or regional or racial lines to draw. We are truly one nation, not a conglomeration of conquered peoples, like the USSR. Without the the US as a nation chaos would riegn here, as well as the world.

This post just shows you must live in middle america. We have PLENTY of racial, ethnic, and ideological lines to draw. Lets start with the obvious, North south division, This isnt likely because the south has no economy since the civil war. However, there is a large Mexican population in the southwest, (ther used to be a provision allowing Texas to succede from the Union, but ti was changed) and alarge asian population in San Franciscot. Then theres NYC, These three areas could become self-sufficient, by claiming surrounding terrtories. I dont even think condiditions would have to be that far-fetched for it to happen either. All it would take is a major breakdown of interstate relations, and extensive privitization of defense. Didn't anybody ever read Snow Crash?

It would largely depend on the manner and the time scale of the demise of the US. An overnight disappearance would cause massive devastating world wide disruption (despite the opinions of some here, the US is a massive information storehouse). A 20 year retreat into isolation would allow plenty of adjustment time.

The only way that the US could fall from power within a decade would be if a major global catastrophe brought it on, not the other way around.

Of course, after an adaptation period humanity would recover from the catastrophe. With the amount of literate people and books floating around all over the world it wouldn't be as long and bad as the dark ages. Heck! The dark ages weren't as bad as we imagine them.

The idea of democracy, individual freedoms, republic, capitalism and federation would not disappear with the US, even if the entire US population vanished. After all, they weren't even invented in the US.

US people give their military and economic power too much due. Truth is no nation is indispensable.

Don't forget, the US would not leave an empty crater were it used to be. Barring a peaceful breakup like that of the USSR, the US would fall into warring factions. Our former allies, NATO, and the UN would intervene to try to keep peace. China, possibly desiring a taste of our superior nuclear arsenal or desiring to win a victory for its people, would also invade, percipitating a crisis between the remaining world powers. Even if the US power void could be filled, war would still ensue just because of the massive political changes. Global conflict would rise dramatically one way or another; The thing we need to worry about is the PRC vs the EU.

Don't forget, the US would not leave an empty crater were it used to be.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/a.buckley/crater.jpg
"Here, son, is where the United States used to be."

Say the U.S. falls from power within the decade. *winces*

anyways, do you think the outcome is a political free-for-all? Perhaps another Dark Age as nations see no reason to not invade other nations?

Sure, Europe is there. But what can Europe do after their biggest and most powerful ally, America, has fallen? What if they're already too busy defending themselves from invaders?

Too many rogue nations have nuclear capacity. A nuclear war is likely.

My thoughts...YOURS?

Ahem.

The EU. The AU. ASEAN. Theres your answer. Screw america for all i care, and plunder its land. use it as a cheap third world archeological dig for all i care.

Europe has 700 million people. that can beat the shit outta the US if combined, as the EU is proceeding to accomplish(no official statements on an army, but eh, its damn likely.)Europe hasn't been able to agree on much of anything for the past millenia, except for the fact that they are in agreement over wanting to be bigger then the US, even Britain is standoffish to this whole EU thing, and until the EU Parliament becomes something with real legistlative teeth into it..it too is irrevelent, and even if you combined your total militaries, they still wouldn't have enough to go toe to toe with the US

The AU is all african nations united together, it was formed just a few years ago and is following along the footsteps of its big brother, the EU. Please...please..don't make me laugh...that AU?...there isn't more then a handsful of countries on that continent that are not totally reliant on aid from Europe or the US..not to long ago..Zimbabwe was an exporter of foods, now...useless...massacres in the Congo..Rwanda....Civil War in Ethiopia, Liberia, Sudan, total breakdown of order in Somalia...no..I'm afraid the AU, just like the Organization of African States before it is a pointless exercise

ASEAN im not so clear on, but it keeps SE asia pretty stable. the one area where we have anything to worry bout...it's stable....a strong economy, abudant militaries with combat experience

Contrary to many conservative american minds, most nations on earth could do fine without it. Anyway, when was the last time i saw a toy stamped 'Made in America' in europe? i think when i was 1 or something, back in 89. i bet that habit died even before that. the US is just another big empire doomed to fall due to corrupt politicians, war, idiot leaders, and impotent people.
:wink:

lmao...notice the difference in intelligence between the people that deny America's importance to the world, and those that acknowledge America as the only superpower today.

No, I am not trying to be big-headed here. I am telling my opinion on the matter. Hell, I'm seeing people here accusing others of big-headedness and not really shielding themselves of the same title. :roll:


The fall of the U.S. =/= The fall of the U.S.S.R.


Please try not to forget that. Okay? *pats you on the head*

I doubt that the fall of the US itself would create a dark age. But if certain rogue state take advantage of the resultant chaos, then the world may find itself that way. The vacuum would most likely be filled by the EU, China, and maybe Japan. I hope the EU can hold up when the US is gone.

Last time people, if the U.S. ceased to exist there would not be a new dark ages. Recession/depression/war does not equal a dark age. The dark ages were notable for a backsliding in scientific and social progress. Information, scientific achievements and philosophical works were totally lost. That will not happen today unless a world wide catastrophic event were to result. Not likely, and if it did, a new dark age would be the least of our worries.

lmao...notice the difference in intelligence between the people that deny America's importance to the world, and those that acknowledge America as the only superpower today.

No, I am not trying to be big-headed here. I am telling my opinion on the matter. Hell, I'm seeing people here accusing others of big-headedness and not really shielding themselves of the same title. :roll:


The fall of the U.S. =/= The fall of the U.S.S.R.


Please try not to forget that. Okay? *pats you on the head*

Let's not be paternal either. Furthermore, I said barring a peaceful breakup like that of the USSR.

I agree that if America collapsed for some reason in the near future, the effects worldwide would be very major. America is the source of a lot of aid propping up some small nations, and the source of many materials that aren't produced in many other countries.
Perhaps Australia would need to take a more active role in Oceania.
Maybe you ought back this up by more fact. France alone gives more int'l aid then the US. Europe has troops in places in Africa that are a hell of a lot more dangerous then Iraq. They are in disease infested and genocide as a common thing nations. Many weapons dealers/makers are also European ie Diamler. A German soldier could wrip an American in two, same case with Isrealis, Chinese, and Russians.
Other countries could take care of business and wouldn't care about having to keep up image. Remember the original S. Koreans taken hostage in Iraq, they immediately gave them back, because if Korea had its way it would have the blown Iraq up until it found its citizens. If you look at the IAEA condemnations of Iran, many come from Germany, France, and the UK. France is quite capable of putting satalites into space. Isreal does a crap load of genetic research along w/ France, Canada, Germany, and the UK. Lets think about the mainstream of US exports: Computer technology we could turn to India, Cars there are plenty of European and Asian companies putting out cars, and food everything here is GM. The $ no longer carries its place in the world with a stronger €. The USA isn't as important as you think it is. I question if any of you are coming up with this with out ever leaving the USA, or backing this with much thought.

stronger Euro... :roll:

Quite wrong... Lets look at it in terms of numbers shall we?

2002 Information, may be slightly more today after 9-11 reqruiting taken from CDI

http://www.cdi.org/products/almanac0102.pdf (check out the section of ICBMs and Military ... of any NATO / allied country we have THE most power ;p)

To make life easy, we'll use military spending as how much we're using to sustain / create military forces

USA - 342 Billion
Europe combined - 147.1 billion
France? a paltry 27 billion

South Korea more powerful? you're kidding right? 12.8 billion.

Iran? 7.5 billion

Even the 2nd most powerful, russia lags behind at 56 billion.

China is at 39 billion if anyone cares

US is by far THE most powerful military, none of the other countries could even win a salad fight against US military.

Let's see. The world as a whole never fell into the Dark Ages. If the U.S. collapses then the short-term effects will shock the world, but I doubt that the globe will fall into Dark Ages.

Let's see. The world as a whole never fell into the Dark Ages. If the U.S. collapses then the short-term effects will shock the world, but I doubt that the globe will fall into Dark Ages.
how long do you consider a short-term would be?

OFCOURSE AND AUSTRALIA WOULD GET INVAAAADED :shock:

Let's see. The world as a whole never fell into the Dark Ages. If the U.S. collapses then the short-term effects will shock the world, but I doubt that the globe will fall into Dark Ages.
how long do you consider a short-term would be?

now "short-term" is relative, of course.
say, about a year or two? by that time America would only be a distant memory.

Let's see. The world as a whole never fell into the Dark Ages. If the U.S. collapses then the short-term effects will shock the world, but I doubt that the globe will fall into Dark Ages.
how long do you consider a short-term would be?

now "short-term" is relative, of course.
say, about a year or two? by that time America would only be a distant memory.
honestly? :roll:


we;ll leave it at that, Futurama's starting

Let's see. The world as a whole never fell into the Dark Ages. If the U.S. collapses then the short-term effects will shock the world, but I doubt that the globe will fall into Dark Ages.
how long do you consider a short-term would be?

now "short-term" is relative, of course.
say, about a year or two? by that time America would only be a distant memory.

eH, CHU SHOUR ABOUT THAT? :?