NationStates Jolt Archive

Where are we today where there are people claiming that George W. Bush did all these bad things that resulted in the predicaments that we are involved in today, i.e. the rising gas prices, the War on Terrorism, or the failing economy. I am a strict Conservative much like my father and my grandfather and I believe that Bush is not at fault for the bad things that have happened to our lovely country. Just imagine if Al Gore were president.

I do, and I think things would be better.

So you think we would be better off with Gore?

Hell yes.

So Mr Conservative like your Father and his before him,

Look at Bushes resume.

What do you have to say about it?
It speaks for itself, and if you dont know what Im talking about, I'll post it for you.

Thinks like..

President who has taken the most time off of any president...

all of them.

George W. Bush Resume:

Past work experience:

Ran for congress and lost.

Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments as president:

Attacked and took over two countries.

Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.

Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

Signed more laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution than any president in US history.

Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleezza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

Records and References:

At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.

For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

you have no way of proving that gore would have been better, capernaum.

i do think gore would have been better, not so trigger happy and more rational, but we have no real way of knowing. so saying "think of what would have happened if gore had been president" or whatever... it has no real meaning at all.
you have no way of proving that he would have been worse than bush.

M04- down with bush.

Bush is a moron, don't be silly.

Just cause your family are idiots, doesn't mean you are obliged to be one too.

When Bush entered office, the economy was at its strongest ever, and consumer prices and taxes were low.

Property taxes are now 300% what they were then, we're making less money, unemployment is officially 6.5%, 11% if you count those who are not on unemployment, and were at war with 2 countries, almost 1000 soldiers are dead, and to top it off, the ultra rich (top 4% after top 1%) received a HUGE taxcut!

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record? Give me a break :P
Washington comes to mind. Mr. High Treason.

Anyway, I gave up on this a while back, you cant ever really change what people think unless theyre open to some sort of suggestion, most everybody on this board has built up a wall of ten foot thick neutronium around their opinions and most debate threats end by getting ignored or by a 'Well, I havent changed my mind but this is getting boring' type post.
I say, keep the debate to the smaller things, like religion, I think there are a few more Atheists/Polythiests/Whatevers than Jews, Christians and Muslims on this board, but its pretty even so you can get a good debate going.
Look at the 'End God' thread, THAT is a real debate. Most of what you get now is more like 'Lets all agree while ganging up on the one guy who dissagrees', mostly because half the threads are 'OMG! REGAN R SUCKZOR!' or 'BUSH IS STOOPID!' threads...though they are dying off now.

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record?


Bush was arrested for drunk driving in the 70's.

Its fact.

I forgot to mention, I live in Palm Beach, where Bush stole our votes in 2000...

Bush lost, face it, we all know he did. Palm Beach County (with it's almost 60% jewish, and 15% black population) saw democrats outraise Republicans by a long shot.

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record?


Bush was arrested for drunk driving in the 70's.

Its fact.

Washington DID commit treason most foul against His Majesty.

Yet he died in his bed. He should have hung on the gallows for his crimes.

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record?


Bush was arrested for drunk driving in the 70's.

Its fact.

TRUE:

Bush was arrested for a DUI, however, he was not prosecuted.

I forgot to mention, I live in Palm Beach, where Bush stole our votes in 2000...

Bush lost, face it, we all know he did. Palm Beach County (with it's almost 60% jewish, and 15% black population) saw democrats outraise Republicans by a long shot.

outraised but not outvoted. Even using the most lenient of standards, Bush still would've won florida. Dot Period end of story.

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record?


Bush was arrested for drunk driving in the 70's.

Its fact.

TRUE:

Bush was arrested for a DUI, however, he was not prosecuted.

and why do you suppsoe that is?

Becuase he was innocent?

No..they found him passed out in his car, after it gone off the road, and stopped in a neighbors bushes.

Because his father was Head of the C.I.A.?

could be, huh?

I still hate Bush, thank-you very much.

Al Gore is a complete moron, and looks like a fag when he gets angry during speeches. He is a walking, talking robot.

This year, John Kerry is going to blow it for the Democrats. They had a good canidate in Dean, but when you have a man who can't even decide where he stands on an issue, twisting and contorting to obtain votes, as well as delaying his announcement of a running mate to get more campaign money, and how he is trying to reach out to the middle-class, all the while having a 500 million dollar sugar momma, there is something to be said, and that is "don't vote for me".

Ok, first off, almost all bills affecting economy, Bush's payment, congress's payment, etc. don't go into affect until the next term. Which would mean it's all Clinton's fault.

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!? what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof. He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly. He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway. Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Ok, first off, almost all bills affecting economy, Bush's payment, congress's payment, etc. don't go into affect until the next term. Which would mean it's all Clinton's fault.

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!? what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof. He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly. He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway. Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Thank you sir. You finally hit the nail on the head.

Wow all you Bush haters are being soo stupid, you can't see any good in him, when Al Gore would of been ten times worse. Bush has accomplished a lot. Have you been to school in Texas? Best there is! I can't believe you people. I know he's done some controversial stuff, but who hasn't. At least he wasn't getting chopped up by some ugly chick.

You're right actually about one thing, peter... the public schooling system in Texas is pretty awesome. Even our really bad schools aren't that bad compared to other states.
But that's all I agree with.

Liberals will always find something to complain about.

If it is not a Democrat in the office, it is a Catch-22 situation.

This should be one of Murphy's Laws.

Texas schools may be fine. But don't you have to pray to your god and your flag?

Texas schools may be fine. But don't you have to pray to your god and your flag?

If your talking about the pledge of alliegence (yes spelled wrong, forgive me, its quarter to midnight), it isn't praying to god or to the flag. Its neither. God in the pledge could mean the Christian God, the Muslim, God, the Jewish God (all three are the same though Muslims call theirs Allah). It isn't supporting one religion over another.

Only private schools can pray whereas public schools were banned from it by order of the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court tossed the Pledge Case out on a technicality. I don't think they want to be forced to vote on it because the majority of the nation want the words "Under God" in there.

Texas schools may be fine. But don't you have to pray to your god and your flag?

If your talking about the pledge of alliegence (yes spelled wrong, forgive me, its quarter to midnight), it isn't praying to god or to the flag. Its neither. God in the pledge could mean the Christian God, the Muslim, God, the Jewish God (all three are the same though Muslims call theirs Allah). It isn't supporting one religion over another.

Only private schools can pray whereas public schools were banned from it by order of the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court tossed the Pledge Case out on a technicality. I don't think they want to be forced to vote on it because the majority of the nation want the words "Under God" in there.

Not only that, but you do not have to stand and say the pledge. They can't make you say it. Or better yet, how about you just don't say "Under God"?

American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud.

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me


First off im not a conservative. Secondly, I have nothing against Clinton. Except maybe his wife but that is another story. I do however remember Good 'ol Bill with a halo over his head, accept campaign money illegaly from china. Oh and bring about one of the most embarassing and mass publicised political controversies in the history of US presidents. Tell me somthing that bush has done in office that is illegal?

If I were an American, I would never salute the flag, never Pledge allegience to the government, or any of your other nationalistic idols.

If I were an American, I would never salute the flag, never Pledge allegience to the government, or any of your other nationalistic idols.

I'm an american and I don't. And further more*Door gets kicked in by the Patriot Act thought police* "Get your non-patriotic ass up now! Your under arrest for not being a braindead sheep of the downward flock!"
*Getting dragged off screaming, kicking, and biting.*

Kicking and biting wont do you any good. You'll end up in some prison, without any rights, no lawyer, your family not knowing where you are and you'll most likely be executed without trial for being a terrorist - probably the brother of Osama Bin Laden or something.

I forgot to mention, I live in Palm Beach, where Bush stole our votes in 2000...

Bush lost, face it, we all know he did. Palm Beach County (with it's almost 60% jewish, and 15% black population) saw democrats outraise Republicans by a long shot.

Well, you people should learn to pucnh your voting cards properly. It is pretty simple. We used to use the same system in my county. I never had any trouble when I used them. We use simple machine ballots now. A no armed midget with brain damage could use the system now.

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me

Actually, it was plotting. We were plotting during the Clinton years and positioning ourselves to take back the majority in government. The liberals do the same. It how this government works. While one party is in power, the other schemes to take them down. I just prefer that both sides keep things to some level of civility. Some of the stuff I see going on now is downright atrocious.

Wow, I just feel so told. You are right, I tip my hat to you sir and intend to spread your pearls of wisdom throughout the land.

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me

Actually, it was plotting. We were plotting during the Clinton years and positioning ourselves to take back the majority in government. The liberals do the same. It how this government works. While one party is in power, the other schemes to take them down. I just prefer that both sides keep things to some level of civility. Some of the stuff I see going on now is downright atrocious.no its not now --the atroucous crap started in the 90s with the rightwing conspiracy to get Clinton at all costs

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me


First off im not a conservative.

I'm not quite sure I believe that.


Secondly, I have nothing against Clinton. Except maybe his wife but that is another story.

I have a LOT of trouble believing that, considering what you write below.

I do however remember Good 'ol Bill with a halo over his head, accept campaign money illegaly from china.

Sure, you have nothing against Clinton. :roll: That's why you're still recycling pseudo-scandals from the 90's and referring to him as "Good 'ol Bill with a halo over his head."

Oh and bring about one of the most embarassing and mass publicised political controversies in the history of US presidents.

Funny how you seem to blame Clinton for the fact that the Lewinsky scandal (that's what you're referring to, right?) was "mass publicised." Would you like to ponder who was doing the publicizing?

Tell me somthing that bush has done in office that is illegal?

How about revealing the identity of an undercover CIA agent? Or does that not count because Bush is incapable of fault?

*fills up the troll trough for the new coalition of the neo-cons to feed at because they are wasting so much energy trying to irritate us, while not realizing that we find them amusing*

*fills up the troll trough for the new coalition of the neo-cons to feed at because they are wasting so much energy trying to irritate us, while not realizing that we find them amusing*

Funny how you seem to blame Clinton for the fact that the Lewinsky scandal (that's what you're referring to, right?) was "mass publicised." Would you like to ponder who was doing the publicizing?


I wouldn't be the conservatives, seeing as most of the media is controlled by the liberals.

Funny how you seem to blame Clinton for the fact that the Lewinsky scandal (that's what you're referring to, right?) was "mass publicised." Would you like to ponder who was doing the publicizing?


I wouldn't be the conservatives, seeing as most of the media is controlled by the liberals.

Funny how you seem to blame Clinton for the fact that the Lewinsky scandal (that's what you're referring to, right?) was "mass publicised." Would you like to ponder who was doing the publicizing?


I wouldn't be the conservatives, seeing as most of the media is controlled by the liberals.

Hey, you're right....the conservatives were desperately trying to keep a lid on the Lewinsky story, hoping that no one would make a big deal out of it. :roll:

It is pretty true that the media is a liberalist institution, and it usually supports democrats, however, you are right in that the conservatives did makes a big deal out of it within Wash DC; which led to the media picking it up and running it as a hugely inflated scandal (i mean seriously... since when does moral integrity of a president affect how good he is in office)

I think bush is good for a whoely diffrent reason, which is his economic policies... Which i feel are beneficial in the long term for the US as a whole while clinton's policies were quite shortsighted and constituted of making the welfare state much larger..
my 1 cent

dp

dp

stupid server is being a real beeyatch today - whats up with that?

lmao SHF

I know the "debate" on the liberal media will never end but if any of you care to visit this link (http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book24n.htm), you will find a lot of evidence against it.

anyone that doesnt live with their head up their ass knows that large corporations own the mass media and they are frighteningly conservative.

It is pretty true that the media is a liberalist institution, and it usually supports democrats, however, you are right in that the conservatives did makes a big deal out of it within Wash DC; which led to the media picking it up and running it as a hugely inflated scandal (i mean seriously... since when does moral integrity of a president affect how good he is in office)

The media in the US nowadays is controlled by a handful of corporations, 6 or 7 major players with their fingers in all pies. These corporations are neither liberal nor conservative, they will back whoever will give them the chance to make the most money. If that happens to be a republican, they will back a republican, if that happens to be a democrat, they will back a democrat. Corporations have no ideologies.

Just look at all the news networks, it's nothing but entertainment news, designed to be consumed by the masses while providing the least amount of information and thought.


I think bush is good for a whoely diffrent reason, which is his economic policies... Which i feel are beneficial in the long term for the US as a whole while clinton's policies were quite shortsighted and constituted of making the welfare state much larger..
my 1 cent

Well, that's what you're supposed to do in times of growth. Take that money, apply to social services and create the structure necessary so that when the next downturn cycle hits (over which politicians have no control at all, so it's not Clinton's or Bush's fault; likewise, politicians can't take credit for economic recovery) it won't be too bad.

Bush has kept government spending despite the downturn and credit tax cuts (which favoured the richest segment of the population when it's the lowest segment that makes the most consuming of basic products). That has placed the US in a vulnerable situations that may be reflected in higher inflation in the next few years.

However, the main reason I dislike Bush is how he has handled the security issues. The world is far more dangerous now, not only to Americans, but to everyone around the world. The situation two years ago called for a more cautious, more measured reaction, one that would work slowly but surely. Now, who knows where it all will end.

It is pretty true that the media is a liberalist institution, and it usually supports democrats, however, you are right in that the conservatives did makes a big deal out of it within Wash DC; which led to the media picking it up and running it as a hugely inflated scandal (i mean seriously... since when does moral integrity of a president affect how good he is in office)

The media in the US nowadays is controlled by a handful of corporations, 6 or 7 major players with their fingers in all pies. These corporations are neither liberal nor conservative, they will back whoever will give them the chance to make the most money. If that happens to be a republican, they will back a republican, if that happens to be a democrat, they will back a democrat. Corporations have no ideologies.

Just look at all the news networks, it's nothing but entertainment news, designed to be consumed by the masses while providing the least amount of information and thought.


I think bush is good for a whoely diffrent reason, which is his economic policies... Which i feel are beneficial in the long term for the US as a whole while clinton's policies were quite shortsighted and constituted of making the welfare state much larger..
my 1 cent

Well, that's what you're supposed to do in times of growth. Take that money, apply to social services and create the structure necessary so that when the next downturn cycle hits (over which politicians have no control at all, so it's not Clinton's or Bush's fault; likewise, politicians can't take credit for economic recovery) it won't be too bad.

Bush has kept government spending despite the downturn and credit tax cuts (which favoured the richest segment of the population when it's the lowest segment that makes the most consuming of basic products). That has placed the US in a vulnerable situations that may be reflected in higher inflation in the next few years.

However, the main reason I dislike Bush is how he has handled the security issues. The world is far more dangerous now, not only to Americans, but to everyone around the world. The situation two years ago called for a more cautious, more measured reaction, one that would work slowly but surely. Now, who knows where it all will end.

Where are we today where there are people claiming that George W. Bush did all these bad things that resulted in the predicaments that we are involved in today, i.e. the rising gas prices, the War on Terrorism, or the failing economy. I am a strict Conservative much like my father and my grandfather and I believe that Bush is not at fault for the bad things that have happened to our lovely country. Just imagine if Al Gore were president.

Do you have a point / an arguement? anything besides "Im a republican, and I like Bush hes a swell guy." I guess not. Sure those tax cuts and rampant spending, and the general world hatred of america were natural disasters, not policy decisions. Grow a brain man.

"American Liberals: Quit complaining that you live in the best off nation on the face of this planet. Billions of others could be as lucky as you are. Your an American. Be proud."
What did you conservatives do during the Clinton years? it sounded a lot like complaining to me


First off im not a conservative. Secondly, I have nothing against Clinton. Except maybe his wife but that is another story. I do however remember Good 'ol Bill with a halo over his head, accept campaign money illegaly from china. Oh and bring about one of the most embarassing and mass publicised political controversies in the history of US presidents. Tell me somthing that bush has done in office that is illegal?

Most embarassing? Hardly. Look into the history of the Presidency and you will find Bill was actually tame when compared to past Presidents.

Publicised? Without a doubt.

It is pretty true that the media is a liberalist institution, and it usually supports democrats, however, you are right in that the conservatives did makes a big deal out of it within Wash DC; which led to the media picking it up and running it as a hugely inflated scandal (i mean seriously... since when does moral integrity of a president affect how good he is in office)

I think bush is good for a whoely diffrent reason, which is his economic policies... Which i feel are beneficial in the long term for the US as a whole while clinton's policies were quite shortsighted and constituted of making the welfare state much larger..
my 1 centsave your penny because you couldnt be more wrong--the media is rightwing conservative and always has been and Bushs economic policies is nothing more then typical republican class warfare and welfare state for the wealthiest 1%

Ok, first off, almost all bills affecting economy, Bush's payment, congress's payment, etc. don't go into affect until the next term. Which would mean it's all Clinton's fault.

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!? what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof. He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly. He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway. Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Thank you sir. You finally hit the nail on the head.

Thank you. I find it amusing that no one has any response against it.

Where are we today where there are people claiming that George W. Bush did all these bad things that resulted in the predicaments that we are involved in today, i.e. the rising gas prices, the War on Terrorism, or the failing economy. I am a strict Conservative much like my father and my grandfather and I believe that Bush is not at fault for the bad things that have happened to our lovely country. Just imagine if Al Gore were president.

So let me make sure I understand your argument. Nothing that is bad right now is Bush's fault. But if Gore were president, every bad thing *would* be his fault. Yup, makes perfect sense to me. No, really!

I like Bush over other candidates because he actually has direction. He is not afraid to alienate a few people to get the job done and he wont let the US be controlled by other nations or the UN. Since when do we give a crap if the rest of the world likes us or not. They will still always ask for our help if a real war breaks out. **cough**France**cough**

I do, and I think things would be better.

If Al had won office 9/11 would never have been avenged He (like Clinton)
would have just treated it like a criminal case and woulda said "aw thats to bad...O WeLL" and just pretend it never happened. Our military of wich I am greatly proud of would have been slashed to bits I mean it was already underfunded when clinton was in charge and Knowing Kerry if he wins he will betray and abondon Iraq and let it fall to pieces and systematicly destroy our proud and powerful military. :?

Where are we today where there are people claiming that George W. Bush did all these bad things that resulted in the predicaments that we are involved in today, i.e. the rising gas prices, the War on Terrorism, or the failing economy. I am a strict Conservative much like my father and my grandfather and I believe that Bush is not at fault for the bad things that have happened to our lovely country. Just imagine if Al Gore were president.

i'm not going to read every post here. but i will explain one thing: i am a conservative, and i have argued with many people here. now what i have realised, and what you should realize, is that they care, and will never change their idiotic arguments. liberals are just like that.

I say! Hating bush? Lummee, what kind of chaps are you?

Texas schools may be fine. But don't you have to pray to your god and your flag?

If your talking about the pledge of alliegence (yes spelled wrong, forgive me, its quarter to midnight), it isn't praying to god or to the flag. Its neither. God in the pledge could mean the Christian God, the Muslim, God, the Jewish God (all three are the same though Muslims call theirs Allah). It isn't supporting one religion over another.

Only private schools can pray whereas public schools were banned from it by order of the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court tossed the Pledge Case out on a technicality. I don't think they want to be forced to vote on it because the majority of the nation want the words "Under God" in there.I believe it was conservatives I heard arguing this, and this doesn't surprise me a bit. Apparently secularism is a religion, and since this "god" reference does not cover secularism, it's discrimination.

(Not like I care anyway, I'm agnostic and damn happy about it)

Texas schools may be fine. But don't you have to pray to your god and your flag?

If your talking about the pledge of alliegence (yes spelled wrong, forgive me, its quarter to midnight), it isn't praying to god or to the flag. Its neither. God in the pledge could mean the Christian God, the Muslim, God, the Jewish God (all three are the same though Muslims call theirs Allah). It isn't supporting one religion over another.

Only private schools can pray whereas public schools were banned from it by order of the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court tossed the Pledge Case out on a technicality. I don't think they want to be forced to vote on it because the majority of the nation want the words "Under God" in there.I believe it was conservatives I heard arguing this, and this doesn't surprise me a bit. Apparently secularism is a religion, and since this "god" reference does not cover secularism, it's discrimination.

(Not like I care anyway, I'm agnostic and damn happy about it)

I don't see what the big deal is with "under God" in the pledge Who ever broght that to court must really got something againts religion. I mean if you dont believe in god (of wich Im sorry you have lost faith) then just dont say it as far as im conserned Im going to say it I dont care if im not aloud to. :?

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

I fail to see how this is an argument, our government has not been above the murder of civilians when it wants to start a war in the past. "Remember the Maine!" Go find some facts, and then grow a brain to read them with.


For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!?

OMG..There are so many things wrong with this statement.. SO he allowed it to happen... that would be the implication...

what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof.

I dont know who "y'all" is, but I would have been amazed if Bush ever sacrificed some money to prevent death. I dont think anyone would have complained much, least of all me. But this is really the most meatheaded approach to the issue, there are a lot more precise ways of deling with the problem.

He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly.

Sure, like the govt wouldnt tell us why they shut down the air for a day... this is just silly

He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway.

Actually, armed marshalls would have done a lot of good, probobly would have prevented the entire thing, secret or no. Again no one would have complained, especially if they were SECRET! fool...

Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Yes this is the point of terrorism, you can't win by fighting it, its like fighting drugs or communism, its an idea, not an army. You have to stop it at the source, by not meddleing in the affairs of other countries. If we stopped supporting the oppressive Saudi monarchy, and withdrew our unilateral support for Israel's human rights violations, (two things which ethically we should do anyway) we would have far fewer problems with terrorism. (but we might have to pay the actual price of oil... oh HORRORS how will I fill up my SUV for less that $50! Go buy a hybrid, or drive less like the rest of the world)

sorry Rhyno I couldn't let this little bit of unmitigated ignorance stand unchallenged.

LOL, I always love this argument: "Sure Bush hasn't done great but can you imagine where our country would be if Gore had been president?"

Its almost as though conservatives are admitting that they have no solid ground to stand on when defending their man so they resort to their famous tactic of attacking anything that came out of the Clinton Administration.

I have never heard defenders point so often to the opponent in the election as Bushies have done. Did you ever hear Bush Sr. talk about Dukakis after the fact or grumblings about Mondale by Reagan?

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

I fail to see how this is an argument, our government has not been above the murder of civilians when it wants to start a war in the past. "Remember the Maine!" Go find some facts, and then grow a brain to read them with.

Facts? Where's yours? I don't know of any times a president has stooped that low. And even if they did, killing that many innocent civilians, of his own country? Please.
Or are you one of the schizophrenic conspiracy-throwers? If you are, any proof you have is probably faked by the even more paranoid morons out there. I have a brain, and i suspect you do too, it's just got some paranoid-schizo issues.


For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!?

OMG..There are so many things wrong with this statement.. SO he allowed it to happen... that would be the implication...

Read the rest moron. There's nothing he could have done anyway.

what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof.

I dont know who "y'all" is, but I would have been amazed if Bush ever sacrificed some money to prevent death. I dont think anyone would have complained much, least of all me. But this is really the most meatheaded approach to the issue, there are a lot more precise ways of deling with the problem.

Y'all would be people like you.
And think about it...If Bush did start putting air marshals on for no apparant reason, people would complain about him. If he told you why, you would claim he had no proof (*coughIraqcough*). And if you did believe him, would you get on a plane? No, you wouldn't, and neither would most of America, so it would have the same effect of shutting down the airlines, which wouldn't work because they'd find another way anyway, and the airlines would have a hissy fit. And of course, the terrorists would figure out that we were on to them, and then they wouldn't attack, and then everyone would still be pissed at Bush, claiming that he was making it up (*coughIraqcough*).

He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly.

Sure, like the govt wouldnt tell us why they shut down the air for a day... this is just silly

You are paranoid schizo. Someone forgot to take his medicine today, didn't he?

He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway.

Actually, armed marshalls would have done a lot of good, probobly would have prevented the entire thing, secret or no. Again no one would have complained, especially if they were SECRET! fool...

A lot of good now. And do you think that the marshals are stopping the kinda of attacks that are as well-planned as 9-11 was? No, because those guys aren't stupid enough to get caught that easily.
And if they were supposed to be a secret, someone would leak, and then we'd have even more conspiracy theories, and even more panic, because no one would know what the hell Bush had them there for.

Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Yes this is the point of terrorism, you can't win by fighting it, its like fighting drugs or communism, its an idea, not an army. You have to stop it at the source, by not meddleing in the affairs of other countries.

Wait a minute, we have to stop them at the source, the source being the governments and citizens of the countries providing aid for the terrorists. Only we're going to do that by sitting on our asses? Doesn't make any sense to me...Does that make sense to anyone else???

If we stopped supporting the oppressive Saudi monarchy, and withdrew our unilateral support for Israel's human rights violations, (two things which ethically we should do anyway) we would have far fewer problems with terrorism. (but we might have to pay the actual price of oil... oh HORRORS how will I fill up my SUV for less that $50! Go buy a hybrid, or drive less like the rest of the world)

Well, your the kind of people who complain that Bush is storing oil instead of releasing it to lower costs. *coughhypocricycough* Ok, fine. He can loose the oil, but then don't complain about rising prices.
Oh, and guess what, Americans don't only use oil only for burning. Maybe you should have stayed awake in chemistry class...Plastics come from oil too, and we need that. Oh, and what about the military? They need oil too (or are you a uberconcervative moron who thinks that the militia can save us against professional soldiers armed with tanks, airforce, and military-grade weapons?).

sorry Rhyno I couldn't let this little bit of unmitigated ignorance stand unchallenged.

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

I fail to see how this is an argument, our government has not been above the murder of civilians when it wants to start a war in the past. "Remember the Maine!" Go find some facts, and then grow a brain to read them with.

Facts? Where's yours? I don't know of any times a president has stooped that low. And even if they did, killing that many innocent civilians, of his own country? Please.
Or are you one of the schizophrenic conspiracy-throwers? If you are, any proof you have is probably faked by the even more paranoid morons out there. I have a brain, and i suspect you do too, it's just got some paranoid-schizo issues.


For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!?

OMG..There are so many things wrong with this statement.. SO he allowed it to happen... that would be the implication...

Read the rest moron. There's nothing he could have done anyway.

what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof.

I dont know who "y'all" is, but I would have been amazed if Bush ever sacrificed some money to prevent death. I dont think anyone would have complained much, least of all me. But this is really the most meatheaded approach to the issue, there are a lot more precise ways of deling with the problem.

Y'all would be people like you.
And think about it...If Bush did start putting air marshals on for no apparant reason, people would complain about him. If he told you why, you would claim he had no proof (*coughIraqcough*). And if you did believe him, would you get on a plane? No, you wouldn't, and neither would most of America, so it would have the same effect of shutting down the airlines, which wouldn't work because they'd find another way anyway, and the airlines would have a hissy fit. And of course, the terrorists would figure out that we were on to them, and then they wouldn't attack, and then everyone would still be pissed at Bush, claiming that he was making it up (*coughIraqcough*).

He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly.

Sure, like the govt wouldnt tell us why they shut down the air for a day... this is just silly

You are paranoid schizo. Someone forgot to take his medicine today, didn't he?

He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway.

Actually, armed marshalls would have done a lot of good, probobly would have prevented the entire thing, secret or no. Again no one would have complained, especially if they were SECRET! fool...

A lot of good now. And do you think that the marshals are stopping the kinda of attacks that are as well-planned as 9-11 was? No, because those guys aren't stupid enough to get caught that easily.
And if they were supposed to be a secret, someone would leak, and then we'd have even more conspiracy theories, and even more panic, because no one would know what the hell Bush had them there for.

Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Yes this is the point of terrorism, you can't win by fighting it, its like fighting drugs or communism, its an idea, not an army. You have to stop it at the source, by not meddleing in the affairs of other countries.

Wait a minute, we have to stop them at the source, the source being the governments and citizens of the countries providing aid for the terrorists. Only we're going to do that by sitting on our asses? Doesn't make any sense to me...Does that make sense to anyone else???

If we stopped supporting the oppressive Saudi monarchy, and withdrew our unilateral support for Israel's human rights violations, (two things which ethically we should do anyway) we would have far fewer problems with terrorism. (but we might have to pay the actual price of oil... oh HORRORS how will I fill up my SUV for less that $50! Go buy a hybrid, or drive less like the rest of the world)

Well, your the kind of people who complain that Bush is storing oil instead of releasing it to lower costs. *coughhypocricycough* Ok, fine. He can loose the oil, but then don't complain about rising prices.
Oh, and guess what, Americans don't only use oil only for burning. Maybe you should have stayed awake in chemistry class...Plastics come from oil too, and we need that. Oh, and what about the military? They need oil too (or are you a uberconcervative moron who thinks that the militia can save us against professional soldiers armed with tanks, airforce, and military-grade weapons?).

sorry Rhyno I couldn't let this little bit of unmitigated ignorance stand unchallenged.

Ditto

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

I fail to see how this is an argument, our government has not been above the murder of civilians when it wants to start a war in the past. "Remember the Maine!" Go find some facts, and then grow a brain to read them with.

Facts? Where's yours? I don't know of any times a president has stooped that low. And even if they did, killing that many innocent civilians, of his own country? Please.
Or are you one of the schizophrenic conspiracy-throwers? If you are, any proof you have is probably faked by the even more paranoid morons out there. I have a brain, and i suspect you do too, it's just got some paranoid-schizo issues.

"REMEMBER THE MAINE" You ought to read things before you refute them. The Maine was a ship that was sunk as an excuse for starting the Spanish-American war.


For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!?

OMG..There are so many things wrong with this statement.. SO he allowed it to happen... that would be the implication...

Read the rest moron. There's nothing he could have done anyway.
This was just a poke in your ribs. Get over it.

what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof.

I dont know who "y'all" is, but I would have been amazed if Bush ever sacrificed some money to prevent death. I dont think anyone would have complained much, least of all me. But this is really the most meatheaded approach to the issue, there are a lot more precise ways of deling with the problem.

Y'all would be people like you.
And think about it...If Bush did start putting air marshals on for no apparant reason, people would complain about him. If he told you why, you would claim he had no proof (*coughIraqcough*). And if you did believe him, would you get on a plane? No, you wouldn't, and neither would most of America, so it would have the same effect of shutting down the airlines, which wouldn't work because they'd find another way anyway, and the airlines would have a hissy fit. And of course, the terrorists would figure out that we were on to them, and then they wouldn't attack, and then everyone would still be pissed at Bush, claiming that he was making it up (*coughIraqcough*).

Well if your going to talk about "people like me" use better teminology than "y'all" try liberal, communist, homosexual bush-basher, you sound less stupid. (but not much)

I wouldn't have said anything about proof. The president does not need proof to take precautions against terrorism. He does need proof of the existence of WMDs to start a war over them. (let me remind you that these weapons DO NOT EXIST) Your thinly masked(?) references to Iraq aer unfounded, they wer two different situation, one involving domestic policy and the other involving a foreign war. I dont know where you get this idea that people would complain about precautions against terrorism, the reason we say that Bush trumped up the evidence from WMDs in Iraq is because THERE WERENT ANY! Would shutting air travel down for one day really be that bad? No. Is an unecessary foreign war that bad? Yes.

He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly.

Sure, like the govt wouldnt tell us why they shut down the air for a day... this is just silly

You are paranoid schizo. Someone forgot to take his medicine today, didn't he?

What? Read the sentence. This is putting some trust in the Govt, not paranoid at all. They would have to tell us why air travel was shut down. I dont apreciate this personal attack.

He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway.

Actually, armed marshalls would have done a lot of good, probobly would have prevented the entire thing, secret or no. Again no one would have complained, especially if they were SECRET! fool...

A lot of good now. And do you think that the marshals are stopping the kinda of attacks that are as well-planned as 9-11 was? No, because those guys aren't stupid enough to get caught that easily.
And if they were supposed to be a secret, someone would leak, and then we'd have even more conspiracy theories, and even more panic, because no one would know what the hell Bush had them there for.

Remeber that the 9-11 attacks were pulled off by some guys armed with plastic knives, an armed marshall who was disguised as a passenger would have been able to subdue the 3 or 4 hijackers, using his gun. (Also air marshalls are pilots no? so they could land the plane if necessary? I dont know aobut this one.)

[quote=Rhyno D]Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Yes this is the point of terrorism, you can't win by fighting it, its like fighting drugs or communism, its an idea, not an army. You have to stop it at the source, by not meddleing in the affairs of other countries.

Wait a minute, we have to stop them at the source, the source being the governments and citizens of the countries providing aid for the terrorists. Only we're going to do that by sitting on our asses? Doesn't make any sense to me...Does that make sense to anyone else???

Haven't you noticed that there arent really any goverments to fight?
Read the rest instead of being stupid. The source, is the general hatred of America, whihc springs from our support of Saudi Arabia and Israel, and cannot be killed with a gun or bomb. Dont twist my words around, you know perfectly well what I meant.

If we stopped supporting the oppressive Saudi monarchy, and withdrew our unilateral support for Israel's human rights violations, (two things which ethically we should do anyway) we would have far fewer problems with terrorism. (but we might have to pay the actual price of oil... oh HORRORS how will I fill up my SUV for less that $50! Go buy a hybrid, or drive less like the rest of the world)

Well, your the kind of people who complain that Bush is storing oil instead of releasing it to lower costs. *coughhypocricycough* Ok, fine. He can loose the oil, but then don't complain about rising prices.

What? im for HIGHER oil prices, like the entire rest of the world pays. Did you even read the above quote?

Oh, and guess what, Americans don't only use oil only for burning. Maybe you should have stayed awake in chemistry class...Plastics come from oil too, and we need that. Oh, and what about the military? They need oil too (or are you a uberconcervative moron who thinks that the militia can save us against professional soldiers armed with tanks, airforce, and military-grade weapons?).

ummmm.... no shit... you should respond to what I wrote about Saudi Arabia and Israel if your going to quote it. Yes, plastic comes from oil... good job on the research, but usually research has a point that it backs up, maybe you ought to get one?

sorry Rhyno I couldn't let this little bit of unmitigated ignorance stand unchallenged.

While it is a mistake to think that Bush "allowed" the 9/11 attacks, his policy and that of his administration in the lead up to the attacks was woefully lacking in the face of advised danger.

According to the BBC from 5/12/02, the German paper Die Welt alleges that Western secret services organizations such as the CIA were aware of Bin Laden's interest in using airlines to attack Western interests as early as 1995. Ari Fleischer, then White House Press Secretary, even stated on May 15th of 2002 that CIA and FBI intelligence briefings from August of 2001 indicated that Bin Laden might be planning near-term hijackings. The German newspaper Frankfurter Algemine Zeitung reported on September 14th, 2001, that the head of the German Intelligence service, the BND, directly warned the Bush Administration in June of 2001 that Middle Eastern terrorists were "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." This indicates that Bush was either not informed of an intelligence warning from the head of a powerful national intelligence gathering service or chose to ignore it. Either way, something was out of whack.

From an interview given to MSNBC on September 15th, 2001, Russian President Vladimir Putin is quoted as stating he had ordered Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent assults on airports and government buildings before the September 11th attacks. The Russian paper, Izvestia reported in it's September 12th, 2001 issue that Russian Intelligence had warned the US of these attacks weeks before they happened. Again, these warnings either were not taken seriously or were ignored completely.

Most damning, however, is what was openly available for all. Die Welt in it's December 6th 2001 issue and the French Agence France Presse on December 7th, the CIA knew as early as 1996 that Al Qaeda planned to hijack commerical airlines and crash them into the World Trade Center. Details of this plan were found on computers siezed during the arrests in the Philippines and were made public in 1997 at the trial of Ramsi Youssef for his involvement in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing attempt.

"REMEMBER THE MAINE" You ought to read things before you refute them. The Maine was a ship that was sunk as an excuse for starting the Spanish-American war.

As much as I hate to disuade you of this, we didn't blow the Maine up. It actually blew itself up when the Ammo (i think) blew to over heating. At the time, we thought it was a Spanish Mine that did it. After the war and when we were able to investigate it further with the latest techniques, then and only then, did we realize that the ammo blew up destroying the Maine!

Read up on the Spanish American War sometime. It is very interesting reading. What the Spanish was doing to the Cubans.....

"REMEMBER THE MAINE" You ought to read things before you refute them. The Maine was a ship that was sunk as an excuse for starting the Spanish-American war.

As much as I hate to disuade you of this, we didn't blow the Maine up. It actually blew itself up when the Ammo (i think) blew to over heating. At the time, we thought it was a Spanish Mine that did it. After the war and when we were able to investigate it further with the latest techniques, then and only then, did we realize that the ammo blew up destroying the Maine!

Read up on the Spanish American War sometime. It is very interesting reading. What the Spanish was doing to the Cubans.....

You are right. i concede not knowing anything about the Maine, except that there are still questions abou it that will never be answered. It is certainly possible that we blew it up, Why would ammo explode? Generally precautions are taken with live ordinance. Also maybe you ought to read up on what our puppet Batista did to the cubans.... and why Castro took over.

So you concede on the other points? That he could have done something if he knew about it?
Read the post by Berkylevania. Bush did not fulfill his responsibility.

Are you goign to respond to the point about Israel and Saudi Arabia? Or did that one hit a little to close to home? Youve posted twice and not even addressed it. do you think that terrorists are just evil, and hate you because you are free adn good, and they are muslimand evil?

Read the post by Berkylevania. Bush did not fulfill his responsibility.

Are you goign to respond to the point about Israel and Saudi Arabia? Or did that one hit a little to close to home? Youve posted twice and not even addressed it. do you think that terrorists are just evil, and hate you because you are free adn good, and they are muslimand evil?

Neither did Bill Clinton and I don't here you denouncing his non-responsiveness to all the terror attacks on my country. (and yours too if you are an American)

The ammo was stored improperly is how the Maine blew up. Someone got careless and that happens sometimes only this time, they didn't get away with it.

As for Saudi Arabia. They have had their eyes opened. They realize they are just as vulnerable to terror as we are. They'll probably do what is necessary to end it just as we are.

As for Israel, I'm abstaining from responding since I don't know that much about the Middle East Conflict over there. Until I do, I won't respond with any opinions till I could back up what I say. Sorry but that is the way its going to be.

Read the post by Berkylevania. Bush did not fulfill his responsibility.

Are you goign to respond to the point about Israel and Saudi Arabia? Or did that one hit a little to close to home? Youve posted twice and not even addressed it. do you think that terrorists are just evil, and hate you because you are free adn good, and they are muslimand evil?

Neither did Bill Clinton and I don't here you denouncing his non-responsiveness to all the terror attacks on my country. (and yours too if you are an American)

I love this, its like a consevative's white flag in an argument. Clinton is no longer president, nor is he running for re-election, so I don't give a damn. However, his administration did make an explicit warning to the Bush administration about al-quada, whihc then got put on the back burner because of Bush's refusal to do anything that Clinton did.

The ammo was stored improperly is how the Maine blew up. Someone got careless and that happens sometimes only this time, they didn't get away with it.

Yeah whatever, that could mean anything. There is no way to know what sunk the Maine. however what we do know is that it was trumped up into an excuse for war, whihc is the point I was making.

As for Saudi Arabia. They have had their eyes opened. They realize they are just as vulnerable to terror as we are. They'll probably do what is necessary to end it just as we are.

I was refering to our support of an opressive monarchy, and how it is a major cause of terrorism. I dont understand what you are trying to say.

As for Israel, I'm abstaining from responding since I don't know that much about the Middle East Conflict over there. Until I do, I won't respond with any opinions till I could back up what I say. Sorry but that is the way its going to be.

How noble of you. Well, since you dont read at all, Ill inform you that our support of Isreal's human rights abuses has pissed off a lot of people. This is a major source of terrorism.

So do you think that terrorists are just evil, and hate you because you are free and good, and they are muslim and evil?

I like everyone! I know that all Muslims aren't evil, only a few of them are. If they hit civilian targets, they are evil.

As for our support of Israel....

Israel needs the support. Yes they have probably done human rights abuses however, the terrorists from the muslim extremist groups there have done more. Israel is basically defending themselves and I can't fault them for that. As for ticking people off for supporting them... If they get on the terror groups doing the Homicide Bombings and get them to stop, I'm sure Israel won't commit them. They're not and Israel is within their rights to defend themselves by any means necessary in that hostile environment.

I like everyone! I know that all Muslims aren't evil, only a few of them are. If they hit civilian targets, they are evil.

As for our support of Israel....

Israel needs the support. Yes they have probably done human rights abuses however, the terrorists from the muslim extremist groups there have done more. Israel is basically defending themselves and I can't fault them for that. As for ticking people off for supporting them... If they get on the terror groups doing the Homicide Bombings and get them to stop, I'm sure Israel won't commit them. They're not and Israel is within their rights to defend themselves by any means necessary in that hostile environment.Israel is doing a poor job of defending itself when it commits crimes against humanity that only encorages MORE not less terrorism. Unless palestinians have a homeland they can call their own then Israel is PART of the terrorist problem not fighters of terrorism

I must admit, as far as ignorant, uneducated, warmongering, self-deluded religious zealots go, GWB isn't a bad chap.

I mean, sure he has done more to destabilize global peace and international relations than Saddam and Usama combined (by a factor of about 20), but when he gets that clueless expression on his face, he's just so darn cute. :?

P.S. Anyone who sees the Israel vs. Palestine conflicts simply as "the good guys vs. the bad guys" is either incredibly stupid and ignorant, or incrediably biased and programmed by the Western media...

I like everyone! I know that all Muslims aren't evil, only a few of them are. If they hit civilian targets, they are evil.

As for our support of Israel....

Israel needs the support. Yes they have probably done human rights abuses however, the terrorists from the muslim extremist groups there have done more. Israel is basically defending themselves and I can't fault them for that. As for ticking people off for supporting them... If they get on the terror groups doing the Homicide Bombings and get them to stop, I'm sure Israel won't commit them. They're not and Israel is within their rights to defend themselves by any means necessary in that hostile environment.Israel is doing a poor job of defending itself when it commits crimes against humanity that only encorages MORE not less terrorism. Unless palestinians have a homeland they can call their own then Israel is PART of the terrorist problem not fighters of terrorism

I will admit that Israel has done something to inflame the terror problem and that they are a part of the problem. However they are not a major part. That would be the terror groups going after the Civilians of Israel. The only way the Palestinians will get a homeland is when this Arafat guy is gone and the Palestinians themselves reign in the Terrorists which we all know they won't. Until they do that, Palestine will not become a state.

P.S. Anyone who sees the Israel vs. Palestine conflicts simply as "the good guys vs. the bad guys" is either incredibly stupid and ignorant, or incrediably biased and programmed by the Western media...That's about the size of it.

Now, to all the idiots who actually think that Bush set up 9-11 and the war with Iraq, etc.: What kind of sick freak does that? That's Texas Chainsaw Massacre crap, not something that normal people do.

I fail to see how this is an argument, our government has not been above the murder of civilians when it wants to start a war in the past. "Remember the Maine!" Go find some facts, and then grow a brain to read them with.

Facts? Where's yours? I don't know of any times a president has stooped that low. And even if they did, killing that many innocent civilians, of his own country? Please.
Or are you one of the schizophrenic conspiracy-throwers? If you are, any proof you have is probably faked by the even more paranoid morons out there. I have a brain, and i suspect you do too, it's just got some paranoid-schizo issues.

"REMEMBER THE MAINE" You ought to read things before you refute them. The Maine was a ship that was sunk as an excuse for starting the Spanish-American war.

You are right. i concede not knowing anything about the Maine
And yeah, ammo explodes all the time...That's what ammo does. Accidents happen.



For all the people who think that Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened: SO WHAT!?

OMG..There are so many things wrong with this statement.. SO he allowed it to happen... that would be the implication...

Read the rest moron. There's nothing he could have done anyway.
This was just a poke in your ribs. Get over it.
Ditto

what can he do about it? Shut down the airlines? Y'all woulda got pissed for that, claiming he had no proof.

I dont know who "y'all" is, but I would have been amazed if Bush ever sacrificed some money to prevent death. I dont think anyone would have complained much, least of all me. But this is really the most meatheaded approach to the issue, there are a lot more precise ways of deling with the problem.

Y'all would be people like you.
And think about it...If Bush did start putting air marshals on for no apparant reason, people would complain about him. If he told you why, you would claim he had no proof (*coughIraqcough*). And if you did believe him, would you get on a plane? No, you wouldn't, and neither would most of America, so it would have the same effect of shutting down the airlines, which wouldn't work because they'd find another way anyway, and the airlines would have a hissy fit. And of course, the terrorists would figure out that we were on to them, and then they wouldn't attack, and then everyone would still be pissed at Bush, claiming that he was making it up (*coughIraqcough*).

Well if your going to talk about "people like me" use better teminology than "y'all" try liberal, communist, homosexual bush-basher, you sound less stupid. (but not much)

Eh, but there are actually intelligent people out there. I can't target you specifically, without offending them, can I?

I wouldn't have said anything about proof. The president does not need proof to take precautions against terrorism. He does need proof of the existence of WMDs to start a war over them. (let me remind you that these weapons DO NOT EXIST) Your thinly masked(?) references to Iraq aer unfounded, they wer two different situation, one involving domestic policy and the other involving a foreign war. I dont know where you get this idea that people would complain about precautions against terrorism, the reason we say that Bush trumped up the evidence from WMDs in Iraq is because THERE WERENT ANY! Would shutting air travel down for one day really be that bad? No. Is an unecessary foreign war that bad? Yes.

You claim the President doesn't need proof, but in the same sentense you accuse him of not having proof...*cough*

He could tell everyone, but that would be the same as shutting down the airlines, since NO one would fly.

Sure, like the govt wouldnt tell us why they shut down the air for a day... this is just silly

You are paranoid schizo. Someone forgot to take his medicine today, didn't he?

What? Read the sentence. This is putting some trust in the Govt, not paranoid at all. They would have to tell us why air travel was shut down. I dont apreciate this personal attack.

Honestly, i read that wrong. But still, if you don't like personaly attacks, don't attack me.

He could spend a crapload of tax dollars on secret skymarshals, except 1) they'd probably find out about it anyway, 2) y'all would complain about how the gov't is "losing" all this tax money, 3) y'all would be shouting conspiracy theories for a decade, and 4) with all of that, it probably wouldn't have helped all that much anyway.

Actually, armed marshalls would have done a lot of good, probobly would have prevented the entire thing, secret or no. Again no one would have complained, especially if they were SECRET! fool...

A lot of good now. And do you think that the marshals are stopping the kinda of attacks that are as well-planned as 9-11 was? No, because those guys aren't stupid enough to get caught that easily.
And if they were supposed to be a secret, someone would leak, and then we'd have even more conspiracy theories, and even more panic, because no one would know what the hell Bush had them there for.

Remeber that the 9-11 attacks were pulled off by some guys armed with plastic knives, an armed marshall who was disguised as a passenger would have been able to subdue the 3 or 4 hijackers, using his gun. (Also air marshalls are pilots no? so they could land the plane if necessary? I dont know aobut this one.)

Plastic knives? No, razors, boxcutters, and hunting knives. Maybe one out of the group had a plastic knife, but you don't take over a plane with plastic anything except for plastic explosives.

[quote=Rhyno D]Lastly, if he had been able to stop them, they would have found another way, and another, and another.

Yes this is the point of terrorism, you can't win by fighting it, its like fighting drugs or communism, its an idea, not an army. You have to stop it at the source, by not meddleing in the affairs of other countries.

Wait a minute, we have to stop them at the source, the source being the governments and citizens of the countries providing aid for the terrorists. Only we're going to do that by sitting on our asses? Doesn't make any sense to me...Does that make sense to anyone else???

Haven't you noticed that there arent really any goverments to fight?
Read the rest instead of being stupid. The source, is the general hatred of America, whihc springs from our support of Saudi Arabia and Israel, and cannot be killed with a gun or bomb. Dont twist my words around, you know perfectly well what I meant.

Just because i know what you meant, it doesn't make it less stupid. They'll hate us no matter what. And haven't you noticed that some people actually like us? Of course the media doesn't show it, since it's not good for ratings, but most of the people in the places we go LIKE US! We are actually helping.

If we stopped supporting the oppressive Saudi monarchy, and withdrew our unilateral support for Israel's human rights violations, (two things which ethically we should do anyway) we would have far fewer problems with terrorism. (but we might have to pay the actual price of oil... oh HORRORS how will I fill up my SUV for less that $50! Go buy a hybrid, or drive less like the rest of the world)

Well, your the kind of people who complain that Bush is storing oil instead of releasing it to lower costs. *coughhypocricycough* Ok, fine. He can loose the oil, but then don't complain about rising prices.

What? im for HIGHER oil prices, like the entire rest of the world pays. Did you even read the above quote?

Oh, and guess what, Americans don't only use oil only for burning. Maybe you should have stayed awake in chemistry class...Plastics come from oil too, and we need that. Oh, and what about the military? They need oil too (or are you a uberconcervative moron who thinks that the militia can save us against professional soldiers armed with tanks, airforce, and military-grade weapons?).

ummmm.... no shit... you should respond to what I wrote about Saudi Arabia and Israel if your going to quote it. Yes, plastic comes from oil... good job on the research, but usually research has a point that it backs up, maybe you ought to get one?

We need the oil. Kinda like how we're doin' this boycott on Cuba, because they're communist, but we're friends with China...We need them. And I thought you just said there were no gov't's to oppose/support?
Haven't you noticed that there arent really any goverments to fight?
Maybe you should read your own crap.

sorry Rhyno I couldn't let this little bit of unmitigated ignorance stand unchallenged.
Ditto, again.

I like everyone! I know that all Muslims aren't evil, only a few of them are. If they hit civilian targets, they are evil.

As for our support of Israel....

Israel needs the support. Yes they have probably done human rights abuses however, the terrorists from the muslim extremist groups there have done more. Israel is basically defending themselves and I can't fault them for that. As for ticking people off for supporting them... If they get on the terror groups doing the Homicide Bombings and get them to stop, I'm sure Israel won't commit them. They're not and Israel is within their rights to defend themselves by any means necessary in that hostile environment.Israel is doing a poor job of defending itself when it commits crimes against humanity that only encorages MORE not less terrorism. Unless palestinians have a homeland they can call their own then Israel is PART of the terrorist problem not fighters of terrorism

I'm sorry, but Israel is 20,770 km. It is smaller than New Jersey. The Israelis have fought for that country for basically the entire time it has existed. Every country around them is Arab. Why can't the Palestinans move there? Israel shouldn't have to give up any land just because some people want their own country even though there are plenty of other places they could have one. The palestinians have plenty of homelands, they just don't want to have to leave their comfort zone to get one.

You're all going to think I'm stupid for saying this, but I love these type of debates. I am really arguementative and will get into it with anyone who will stand still long enough, which is about 3 people at my really small rural school, so thanks.

I like everyone! I know that all Muslims aren't evil, only a few of them are. If they hit civilian targets, they are evil.

As for our support of Israel....

Israel needs the support. Yes they have probably done human rights abuses however, the terrorists from the muslim extremist groups there have done more. Israel is basically defending themselves and I can't fault them for that. As for ticking people off for supporting them... If they get on the terror groups doing the Homicide Bombings and get them to stop, I'm sure Israel won't commit them. They're not and Israel is within their rights to defend themselves by any means necessary in that hostile environment.Israel is doing a poor job of defending itself when it commits crimes against humanity that only encorages MORE not less terrorism. Unless palestinians have a homeland they can call their own then Israel is PART of the terrorist problem not fighters of terrorism

I'm sorry, but Israel is 20,770 km. It is smaller than New Jersey. The Israelis have fought for that country for basically the entire time it has existed. Every country around them is Arab. Why can't the Palestinans move there? Israel shouldn't have to give up any land just because some people want their own country even though there are plenty of other places they could have one. The palestinians have plenty of homelands, they just don't want to have to leave their comfort zone to get one.

You're all going to think I'm stupid for saying this, but I love these type of debates. I am really arguementative and will get into it with anyone who will stand still long enough, which is about 3 people at my really small rural school, so thanks.

Sorry, but this is a really dumb argument. There's no reason why a group of people should just have to get up and leave just because "there are plenty of other places they could have" a homeland. Since you mention New Jersey, let's use it as an example. Suppose a bunch of people from another country started immigrating en masse into New Jersey, and declared it their own country. The New Jersey residents resisted, but lost. Why shouldn't all the New Jersey residents be forced to leave their "comfort zone" and go elsewhere? After all, there are lots of other American states, many of which are thinly populated and could serve as a homeland for the displaced New Jersey residents. So why not kick them out of New Jersey if someone else wants that land?

Ponder the answer to these questions, and you may figure out the answer to your own.

http://www.aedd.privat.t-online.de/bush.jpg

I am a happy and fierce Bush Hater.

Backwood, you do realize that most of the things on that list are false? Only President with a criminal record?


MOST of the things on that list are false?
Please go through them, and provide any information that contradicts the information on that list. You won't find any.

Why is it that so-called conservatives always blindly agree with the position of "president" Bush regardless of the facts or his actions. And if they aren't blindly towing the line, and agree to the truth of these facts, IS THAT OK WITH THEM OR SOMETHING??! I mean look at the information on that list? There are actually people who find that acceptable? Who would vote accordingly? I lose all hope in the American people if its true..

And Bush vs Kerry?
two DUI's vs two purple hearts?

I know where my vote is going...

So you think we would be better off with Gore?
No. I think we would have been in equally bad shape, just in different ways.

I think both politicians last election were poor choices and it looks like history is repeating itself. I’m tired of the Democrats & Republican parties having the entire say in what happens in the US. They have a stranglehold on the media, and it’s nigh impossible for anyone sane to get a say in the matter. I know we can’t let in every asshole into the debates, but it would be nice to have more than 2 (and sometimes 3) options.

And the news polls are the worst fucking things for this country. They always do those polls and say “Candidate X of the Repulicans/Democrats are in the lead” and voters say, “I’d be wasting my vote on anyone else.

This year and every year after this, I'm going to "waste" my vote in protest. I'm going to vote for a third party. Now... if I can just find a sane third party candidate... :(