NationStates Jolt Archive

I just posted this on another thread, but I decided that it really should go on it's own for discussion. Please read the following from Deuteronomy 13:2-4

"If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, 'Let us follow and worship another god' - whom you have not experienced - even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner. For the Lord your God is testing you to see whether you really love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul."

This is from the JPS translation. Since everyone will now be reaching for their own bibles I have saved the work. Check out:

(the like has been taken out because it was messing everything up. if interested go to the biblegateway.com and look it up)

It seems that Jesus fits this discription quite well. The Old Testament does not talk about the son or holy ghost yet christians all believe in them. A thousand times the Old Testament says "God is one" and in the New "God is three" Seems to fit perfectly. I would think that humanity has failed God's test!

But don't Christians believe that Christ and the Old-Testament's God are one and the same, not "another God"?

I'm not sure I can do justice to a Christian explanation of the Trinity, the belief that God is three Persons, but still one God. C. S. Lewis had a pretty good go at it in "Mere Christianity".
I would suggest that the the OT uses plural language to refer to God a number of times (e.g. "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness", Gen. 1:26a), and that the Hebrew word "echad" which translates as "one" (e.g. "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one", Deut 6:4) implies unity rather than singularity (e.g. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.", Gen. 2:24).
But I still can't really explain the Trinity, I just think it's closer to the truth about God's nature than any other explanation (Hindu/Muslim/New Age/Unitarian/Mormon/whatever).

A few things to say.

1. The Old Testament was written before Christ came, so they couldn't have included him.
2. If Jesus was preaching God, and sent by God, and Christians base their worship mainly on God, then how is Jesus this false god?
3. Sidescrolling sucks.

Hi Kleptonis! Sorry, the server isn't letting me quote you directly.
1. The Old Testament is absolutely full-to-bursting with references to Jesus, they just don't use His name directly; I can give you a BIG list if you want, Isaiah 53 is one of the clearest. Jesus is the fulfilment of God's rescue plan for humanity, so it's not surprising that the Israelites were given so many clues as what He would do.
2. Jesus said he was God in a number of ways; He said that He was the Son of God, that He and God are one, and he used the term "I am" a number of times (very similar to YHWH, the covenant name of God). This means he was either crazy, or lying, or God. This is why the religious leaders of the time accused Him of blasphemy; if He wasn't actually God, they'd have been right to do so.
3. I dislike side-scrolling as well.

Yeah sorry about the scrolling, how do you fix it? Of course the explanation is that the trinity are really different sides of the same entity, but it really makes no sense from a jewish persepctive. Consider this: God knew that he would be testing his people and for that purpose made it very clear that God is one and only one. A test of this magnitude can not be easy. Also consider that Christians envoke the name of Jesus all the time, and seperatly the Father and the Holy Ghost. While the belief is that they are all one, they act as seperate entities, know different things, and serve different functions. The key words here are "whom you have not experienced". The son and holy ghost were not experienced before the New Testament.

Also condiser that Christians believe that God know everything that will happen (at least some sects). If this is true then wouldn't he make himself clear of what is going to happen, especially if he warns of a test? It seems like there is a lot of room for serious confusion. Also why would it be made extraordianly clear that God is One, and not that God has different faces?

But wasn't Jesus supposed to be the messiah that the Jews were waiting (and still waiting for), they just refused to believe that Jesus was the "one". Plus the OT is also origanally an Jewish book (surely it couldn't be a christian book as christianity could only exist after Jesus was born and the OT predates him). Therefore I always look at Christianity as an extremist faction of Judasm.It has all the characterists; reject the mainstream religions beliefs, tries to convert others (no doubt the origanal Christians were converted Jews). Anyone agree with me here (I've never suggested this theory to anyone before so it would be interesting to see peoples reactions)

Hi Kleptonis! Sorry, the server isn't letting me quote you directly.
1. The Old Testament is absolutely full-to-bursting with references to Jesus, they just don't use His name directly; I can give you a BIG list if you want, Isaiah 53 is one of the clearest. Jesus is the fulfilment of God's rescue plan for humanity, so it's not surprising that the Israelites were given so many clues as what He would do.
2. Jesus said he was God in a number of ways; He said that He was the Son of God, that He and God are one, and he used the term "I am" a number of times (very similar to YHWH, the covenant name of God). This means he was either crazy, or lying, or God. This is why the religious leaders of the time accused Him of blasphemy; if He wasn't actually God, they'd have been right to do so.
3. I dislike side-scrolling as well.

I know already that you will not have an open mind in this discussion, but I will try. The Jewish concept of the Messiah is quite different from the Christian one. There really are no references to Jesus in the Old Testament. Jews have always believed that Isaiah 53 refers to Isreal itself. Also consider that verse 7 states that "He did not open his mouth", it is hard to say that Jesus did not talk back. and verse 9 "his grave was set among the wicked" Jesus was burried in a cave alone. and most convinceing is verse 10 "But the Lord chose to crush him by disease" and "He might see offspring and have long life" Verse 11 states that the subject is not divine in any way "'My righteous servant makes the many righteous'"

I would like to see the other references though!

But wasn't Jesus supposed to be the messiah that the Jews were waiting (and still waiting for), they just refused to believe that Jesus was the "one". Plus the OT is also origanally an Jewish book (surely it couldn't be a christian book as christianity could only exist after Jesus was born and the OT predates him). Therefore I always look at Christianity as an extremist faction of Judasm.It has all the characterists; reject the mainstream religions beliefs, tries to convert others (no doubt the origanal Christians were converted Jews). Anyone agree with me here (I've never suggested this theory to anyone before so it would be interesting to see peoples reactions)

Actually no. Jews have always believed that the messiah would be a prophet and no more. Also there is barely any prophesies that were fufilled. The Christian explanation is that the second coming will finish them, though there is no prophisy that tells of a second coming.

Here is a woefully incomplete list of OT references to Jesus and His work on earth.
Genesis 3:15 (reference both to crucifixion and the defeat of Satan)
Psalm 22 (David is describing events he never experienced; Jesus quotes this psalm on the cross)
Psalm 110 (see reference to Melchizedek, and explanation in Hebrews 5 and 7)
Isaiah 9:1-7 (the Messiah is referred to as "Mighty God" (v.6), also Jesus grew up by the Sea of Galilee)
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (reference to the New Covenant, also explained in Hebrews 8-10)
Micah 5:2 (Jesus was born in Bethlehem)
I can find more, but it'll take some time.

There are a lot of references to Christ in the OT.
Isaiah 7:14- Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. Obviously, it can be argued that no one can do this, but I have more.
Genesis 1:26-Then God said, "Let Us make man in OUR likeness...", implying that he is plural.
There are tons more being that there are like 100 or so prophecies about the messiah in the OT and Jesus fulfills all of them. Also, lots of people believe, me included, that The Angel of the Lord(Genesis 22:15, Numbers 22:22, Judges 6:22, 1 Chronicles 21:12, Ps 34:7) is, in fact, Jesus.

FFS WHO CARES???????? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

FFS WHO CARES???????? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

George gomez did ask!

Here is a woefully incomplete list of OT references to Jesus and His work on earth.
Genesis 3:15 (reference both to crucifixion and the defeat of Satan)
Psalm 22 (David is describing events he never experienced; Jesus quotes this psalm on the cross)
Psalm 110 (see reference to Melchizedek, and explanation in Hebrews 5 and 7)
Isaiah 9:1-7 (the Messiah is referred to as "Mighty God" (v.6), also Jesus grew up by the Sea of Galilee)
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (reference to the New Covenant, also explained in Hebrews 8-10)
Micah 5:2 (Jesus was born in Bethlehem)
I can find more, but it'll take some time.

Okay i really do not see much here that talks about the coming of a face of God.

1. This is not relevant in the slightest. it talks about punishing men and women for eating the forbidden fruit.

2. I could see a connection, but this does nothing in preperation of the Messaih as Jesus. Almost anything could fit into this.

3. 0kay nothing really here either. And I don't see any kings crushed by Jesus.

4. Interesting passage, though it also calls him "everlasting father" which Jesus was never called. It also says much about the increase of peace and sitting on David's throne and such from "henceforth", nope hasn't happened.

5. All I want to say about these verses is "No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
because they will all know me, " again hasn't happened, nope, thanks for playing try again.

6. It also says he will be a ruler over Isreal. Again didn't happen. No fufilled prophesy here!

It seems that every prophesy I see needs to be forced to fit to Jesus, and this applies much more to one's not on this forum.

Here is a woefully incomplete list of OT references to Jesus and His work on earth.
Genesis 3:15 (reference both to crucifixion and the defeat of Satan)
Psalm 22 (David is describing events he never experienced; Jesus quotes this psalm on the cross)
Psalm 110 (see reference to Melchizedek, and explanation in Hebrews 5 and 7)
Isaiah 9:1-7 (the Messiah is referred to as "Mighty God" (v.6), also Jesus grew up by the Sea of Galilee)
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (reference to the New Covenant, also explained in Hebrews 8-10)
Micah 5:2 (Jesus was born in Bethlehem)
I can find more, but it'll take some time.

Okay i really do not see much here that talks about the coming of a face of God.

1. This is not relevant in the slightest. it talks about punishing men and women for eating the forbidden fruit.

2. I could see a connection, but this does nothing in preperation of the Messaih as Jesus. Almost anything could fit into this.

3. 0kay nothing really here either. And I don't see any kings crushed by Jesus.

4. Interesting passage, though it also calls him "everlasting father" which Jesus was never called. It also says much about the increase of peace and sitting on David's throne and such from "henceforth", nope hasn't happened.

5. All I want to say about these verses is "No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
because they will all know me, " again hasn't happened, nope, thanks for playing try again.

6. It also says he will be a ruler over Isreal. Again didn't happen. No fufilled prophesy here!

It seems that every prophesy I see needs to be forced to fit to Jesus, and this applies much more to one's not on this forum.

1. In the context on man's original rebellion against God, God speaks of His solution to this rebellion. The 'heel' bit refers to cruxifixion (nail though the ankles); the 'head' bit refers to Jesus defeating Satan though the Resurrection)
2. Psalm 22 refers to the dividing up of clothing by casting lots, that none of Jesus's bones were broken (unusual for a cruxifixion), the piercing of hands and feet. This is why Jesus quoted this psalm on the cross, to show that He knew what He was doing.
3. The priest-king Melchizedek is referred to only in the OT in Genesis 14:18-20, and this psalm. The writer of Hebrews explains how Melchizedek is a prefiguration of Jesus, please read the passage I referred to, it explains it much better than I could. God works behind the scenes "crushing kings", and Jesus will finish this off at the end of the world.
4. Jesus is one with the Father, so that bit works just fine. Jesus reigns in a way I'm not sure I can persuade you of. Anyone following Him will know something about the peace referred to.
5. You're right, it hasn't happened yet for the whole world. Would you like to join with God in bringing it about?
6. See 5.
I know you probably think I'm an arrogant, bigoted, close-minded idiot, and if you want me to stop replying to you, please say so, I don't have to have the last word. I hope you continue to seek the will of God, if that is what you are currently doing; if not, please consider it.

There are a lot of references to Christ in the OT.
Isaiah 7:14- Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. Obviously, it can be argued that no one can do this, but I have more.
Genesis 1:26-Then God said, "Let Us make man in OUR likeness...", implying that he is plural.
There are tons more being that there are like 100 or so prophecies about the messiah in the OT and Jesus fulfills all of them. Also, lots of people believe, me included, that The Angel of the Lord(Genesis 22:15, Numbers 22:22, Judges 6:22, 1 Chronicles 21:12, Ps 34:7) is, in fact, Jesus.

I've been waiting for the virgin reference, I find it one of the more interesting points. The hebrew word used does not actually mean "virgin" by any streach. The defination is actually "young woman" If interested look it up yourself. The Messoratic dictionary does infact have three definations:

1. A virgin
2. A woman of marrying age.
3. A recently married woman

No other hebrew english dictionary of modern or archaic origins lists the first defination stated above.

In addition the Messiah also needs to be in the tribe of David. Jewish law is quite clear on where religion comes from and where tribal lineage comes from. The tribe comes from the father. Adoption does not even change what tribe one comes from. Interestingly if there is a virgin birth then there can be no tribe and thus no Messiah!

On some other notes if God is plural it is hard to also say that God is one. There are a lot of theories about these statements and they turn up a number of times. One theory that I find interesting is that there are other beings like God, though it is one in particular that made this world, and that is the one we call God.

As for the other prophsies I can state numerous that are not fufilled such as:

The temple was not rebuilt (don't even try and force it to work with Jesus' body. It is too clear that the temple in jeruslem is the one referenced"

All Jews did not come back to Isreal

The world did not see who the true God is (Please see this post in particular)


Isaiah said he would be called Emmanuel

Jews are not free from opression, either are christians.

If you like I could go on.......

FFS WHO CARES???????? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

George gomez did ask!

True!

Can Mr gomez sort his link out as well??

I may see you as close minded, but I rather enjoy this conversation. I don't understand how people can believe something so strongly that has to be forced into place. I will say however that if you would like to convience me then please only post references that directly and clearly point to Jesus as the messiah and do not have to be looked at in reverse, which I mean that in order to fufill a prophesy one much recognize what it is and then see it come true, not see it come true and look back and fit it in. I feel much of the Christian interpertations of the prophsies fit this. For example the rebuilding of the Temple. It was quite obvious what it referred to until Christians came on the scene.

There are a lot of references to Christ in the OT.
Isaiah 7:14- Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. Obviously, it can be argued that no one can do this, but I have more.
Genesis 1:26-Then God said, "Let Us make man in OUR likeness...", implying that he is plural.
There are tons more being that there are like 100 or so prophecies about the messiah in the OT and Jesus fulfills all of them. Also, lots of people believe, me included, that The Angel of the Lord(Genesis 22:15, Numbers 22:22, Judges 6:22, 1 Chronicles 21:12, Ps 34:7) is, in fact, Jesus.

I've been waiting for the virgin reference, I find it one of the more interesting points. The hebrew word used does not actually mean "virgin" by any streach. The defination is actually "young woman" If interested look it up yourself. The Messoratic dictionary does infact have three definations:

1. A virgin
2. A woman of marrying age.
3. A recently married woman

No other hebrew english dictionary of modern or archaic origins lists the first defination stated above.

In addition the Messiah also needs to be in the tribe of David. Jewish law is quite clear on where religion comes from and where tribal lineage comes from. The tribe comes from the father. Adoption does not even change what tribe one comes from. Interestingly if there is a virgin birth then there can be no tribe and thus no Messiah!

On some other notes if God is plural it is hard to also say that God is one. There are a lot of theories about these statements and they turn up a number of times. One theory that I find interesting is that there are other beings like God, though it is one in particular that made this world, and that is the one we call God.

As for the other prophsies I can state numerous that are not fufilled such as:

The temple was not rebuilt (don't even try and force it to work with Jesus' body. It is too clear that the temple in jeruslem is the one referenced"

All Jews did not come back to Isreal

The world did not see who the true God is (Please see this post in particular)


Isaiah said he would be called Emmanuel

Jews are not free from opression, either are christians.

If you like I could go on.......

Both Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Joseph, the husband of Mary, were descended from David. The genealogy in Matthew is that of Joseph, the one in Luke that of Mary. I accept all of the Masoretic dictionary definitions, as they all apply to Mary.
God being plural and one is complicated, but who said we had to be able to understand the Almighty in detail?
Which prophecy of temple rebuilding are you referring to? BTW, there are Jews in Israel today planning to build a third Temple (please look into this, and NO, I am not anti-semitic, my favourite person, Jesus, is a Jew!).

On prophecy generally, I believe there are three "times" for OT prophecy to come true. First, it could have been very near to the date the prophecy was given. Second, it could have been in the life, death, and life of Jesus Christ. Third, it could be at the end of the world. Therfore, I don't require all prophecy in the Old Testament (or I'll use Tenach if you prefer) to have been fulfilled yet, but I believe it all will be in the end. You may see this as a cop-out, but that's my stance.

I really don't think that the geneology fits well here. It does not account for how tribal lineage is decreed. There is no way according to jewish law that there can be both a virgin birth and a tribe associated. Please see:

Num 1:1-2,18

Also regarding this geneology I would be interested in your assessment of the man Jehoiachin in the lineage. Jer 22:29-30 Brings up a good question!

Regarding the temple and other items check Ezekiel 37:20-30. The end talks about having a Temple for the Lord. The beginning discusses how his people will no longer defile themselves with idols or vile images. We should all know that graven images and sculptures of all types are forbidden. I tend to see a lot of Jesus imagry, and crosses, and NT sculptures. Something is wrong here!

I know that I am asking a lot to look at all this with an open eye, but just consider the possibility.

Hi George Gomez! Sorry I'm not quoting you; this server!
On the genealogy thing, I suppose I have to make the point that if Jesus really is the only begotten Son of Almighty God, El-Shaddai, then the normal rules for determining tribe break down slightly, because his dad is God, and God isn't in a tribe, He made all the tribes as His treasured possession. He's still as descende from David as it's possible to be with a divine Father.
On the descendency from Jehoiachin, a good point made, I would point you to Haggai 2:23 ("'On that day', declares the LORD of hosts, 'I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,' declares the LORD, 'and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,' declares the LORD of hosts."). Shealtiel was the son of Jehoiachin, so Zerubbabel was the grandson of Jehoiachin, and God is definitely choosing Zerubbabel and honouring him. This could be seen as God choosing to reverse the curse laid on Jehoiachin and his descendents, but I'm open to an alternative explanation if you have one.
On the temple stuff, if it hasn't happened yet, it doesn't mean it won't happen. Also, the OT is capable of using symbolism and metaphor to make it's points, this does not detract from it's truth.
On the imagery of Jesus, I probably agree with you quite a lot. My church doesn't use any particular physical images in worship (we don't have our own building yet), but the cross symbol is supposed to be a reminder of the love of God for us demonstrated by the cruxifixion. It's not supposed to worshipped by Christians; we worship God.

--tagged--

Please listen to yourself for a minute. It is quite clear that the messiah needs to come from the tribe of David. The true messiah does not need to be forced into the role, otherwise why even have prophasies? This is a major falicey I see with many Christians. Jews believe you should question everything. If Chistrianity comes from Juidism then they should feel free to question also.

P.S. the curse said that the line would never again sit on David's throne, not necessarily that they would no longer be in gods favor.

This is from the JPS translation.

The John Player Special translation? Damn, cigarette advertising gets everywhere! :wink:

I just posted this on another thread, but I decided that it really should go on it's own for discussion. Please read the following from Deuteronomy 13:2-4

"If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, 'Let us follow and worship another god' - whom you have not experienced - even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner. For the Lord your God is testing you to see whether you really love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul."

This is from the JPS translation. Since everyone will now be reaching for their own bibles I have saved the work. Check out:

(the like has been taken out because it was messing everything up. if interested go to the biblegateway.com and look it up)

It seems that Jesus fits this discription quite well. The Old Testament does not talk about the son or holy ghost yet christians all believe in them. A thousand times the Old Testament says "God is one" and in the New "God is three" Seems to fit perfectly. I would think that humanity has failed God's test!
Very well then. WHO is the Messiah, as prophesied fully in the Old Testament?

A few things to say.

1. The Old Testament was written before Christ came, so they couldn't have included him.
2. If Jesus was preaching God, and sent by God, and Christians base their worship mainly on God, then how is Jesus this false god?
3. Sidescrolling sucks.

I get what you're trying to say, Klept, but it's not quite it. Like the other guy posted, they did include references to Jesus. Also, he was around: see John 1:1, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." "Word" refers to Jesus.

The reason why some people can still acuse him of being a false god because all false gods claim to be god. Obviously Jesus was right, but he sounds a lot like a lot of other people claiming to be from God *coughMuhammadcough*. If you don't know the signs and prophesies he fullfilled, you really wouldn't know it was him.

Sidescrolling ain't that bad is it?


To the original poster of the thread:
That verse in Deut. was trying keep them from doing the stupid things they kept doing throughout the old testament: they were eager for a savior, and they would follow quite a lot of people blindly. They tried to call Moses God, and they fell for countless idols. The verse in Deut. is warning them about stuff like that, not Jesus.

Please listen to yourself for a minute. It is quite clear that the messiah needs to come from the tribe of David. The true messiah does not need to be forced into the role, otherwise why even have prophasies? This is a major falicey I see with many Christians. Jews believe you should question everything. If Chistrianity comes from Juidism then they should feel free to question also.

P.S. the curse said that the line would never again sit on David's throne, not necessarily that they would no longer be in gods favor.

After that amount of time, the "tribe" wouldn't be a tribe anymore. After that many generations, you just can't keep up with the tribe anymore. I don't think the bible ever says tribe, it just says descendent, which is obviously a different matter. (If i'm wrong, show me the verse, please).

And, don't the tribes sometimes adopt orphaned kids from other tribes? I wouldn't know, but you might want to check that. If they did, then Christ's birth it completely valid, despite the earlier argument.

I'd like to applaud you two on having a Christianity debate without flaming and trying to use SOURCE MATERIAL for your debates. Here here!

But in the Bible it says God does not test you.

But in the Bible it says God does not test you.

The bible could say elephants fly but that wouldn't make it true.

But in the Bible it says God does not test you.

It most certainly does not! It tells us not to test God, but it never says that we are never tested by him.

What do you think that temptation is? God does not tempt us. And God certainly has control over Satan. Temptation is how God tests us, and in our testing, we grow closer to him.