NationStates Jolt Archive

not a bad thing I must admit....however keep my personal politics out of this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3821485.stm

British MPs 'fired at' in Gaza
Crispin Blunt said UN officers advised them to leave the area
A group of British politicians were shot at by Israeli soldiers during a UN-supervised fact-finding mission, they have claimed.

The cross-party group, including MPs Huw Irranca-Davies and Crispin Blunt, was on a visit to Rafah in Gaza, where UK student Tom Hurndall was killed.

Liberal Democrat peer Baroness Northover said one bullet hit a wall about 10ft above her head.

"I thought 'they're trying to kill us'," she told BBC News Online.

Speaking from the West Bank city of Hebron on Saturday, the peer said they would be demanding an explanation and apology from the Israeli ambassador to Britain when they returned on Monday.


I wondered if I was going to make it
Lady Northover

The Israeli embassy in London said it had not received an official complaint from the UN or the politicians, but said it was checking with the military.

The Israeli Army later said it was not aware of the alleged shooting but would investigate.

It emphasised that the delegation of politicians did not coordinate their arrival with either the foreign ministry or the defence ministry.

The Israeli Army says a formal complaint was only received after the claim was made in the media.

A source said it was unclear whether shots had been fired, and if so by whom.

He said the exchange of fire between both sides was "commonplace" in the area and had not necessarily come from Israeli forces.

The group had emerged from their UN vehicle at around 1600 (1300 BST) on Thursday when they heard a burst of machine gun fire, said Conservative MP Crispin Blunt.

'Extremely frightening'

They were visiting the site of the demolition of Palestinian homes by the Israeli authorities, near the spot where Mr Hurndall was killed last April.

Mr Irranca Davies said the first he knew of what was happening was when he heard the rattle of a machine gun.

"We withdrew to the jeeps and as we were getting in, it was followed by some pretty accurate warning shots which fired above our heads and hit a building. It was a pretty clear indication they didn't want us there.

"It was extremely frightening.

"I will be taking it up with Jack Straw and the Foreign Office because it's simply not acceptable," he added.

A Foreign Office spokesman said it was in touch with the MPs and seeking an explanation from the Israeli Government.

'Indiscriminate violence'

Lady Northover told BBC News Online when shots rang out she wondered if she would make it back to their vehicle.

"Our UN companions later said that if they had wanted to kill us they would have, but it was certainly our group they were targeting and seeking to scare. We were the only adults around.

Labour MP Huw Irranca-Davies was part of the delegation to Rafah

"One of the most perturbing things was that we had been surrounded by children as we arrived, but they were not terrified by this - it's obviously a fairly common occurrence," she added.

In an earlier statement Lady Northover, the Liberal Democrats' international development spokesperson in the Lords, said the incident had shown her "the indiscriminate violence faced by Palestinians on a daily basis".

She and Mr Blunt said the action may have been an attempt to stop the group seeing the effect of Israel's policy of demolishing Palestinian housing in Gaza.

The group's fact-finding visit was arranged through the British consul-general in Jerusalem.

Tom Hurndall, 22, from Tufnell Park, north London, was shot in April last year while trying to help Palestinian children to safety in Rafah.

An Israeli soldier is being tried for the killing.

"I deleted this becaus emy argument made no sense

"They claimed" - BBC Article
First off, everyone knows that BBC is anti-semitic and anti-american, and pro-terrorist/ Yasser Arafat. And the British officers had no authorization form the israeli government. only the UN, which is trying to destroy Israel, and put the palestinians terrorists in power. And, it could've been the evil palestinian terrorist who shot at them. But, it doesn't matter what happeend. In the end, teh british will blame israel.

Yep because FOX isnt anti arabic with its "I used to think all arabs were terrorists" reporters. If you can call them that.
It is clear you are a Jew who tries to deflect critiscm by calling people anti-semitic. Your the reason the freedom fighters have to blow themselves up so valiantly and heroically in defence our thier nation to kill israelis.

"They claimed" - BBC Article
First off, everyone knows that BBC is anti-semitic and anti-american, and pro-terrorist/ Yasser Arafat. And the British officers had no authorization form the israeli government. only the UN, which is trying to destroy Israel, and put the palestinians terrorists in power. And, it could've been the evil palestinian terrorist who shot at them. But, it doesn't matter what happeend. In the end, teh british will blame israel.

Yep because FOX isnt anti arabic with its "I used to think all arabs were terrorists" reporters. If you can call them that.
It is clear you are a Jew who tries to deflect critiscm by calling people anti-semitic. Your the reason the freedom fighters have to blow themselves up so valiantly and heroically in defence of thier nation to kill israelis.

"They claimed" - BBC Article
First off, everyone knows that BBC is anti-semitic and anti-american, and pro-terrorist/ Yasser Arafat. And the British officers had no authorization form the israeli government. only the UN, which is trying to destroy Israel, and put the palestinians terrorists in power. And, it could've been the evil palestinian terrorist who shot at them. But, it doesn't matter what happeend. In the end, teh british will blame israel.

Yep because FOX isnt anti arabic with its "I used to think all arabs were terrorists" reporters. If you can call them that.
It is clear you are a Jew who tries to deflect critiscm by calling people anti-semitic. Your the reason the freedom fighters have to blow themselves up so valiantly and heroically in defence of thier nation to kill israelis.

Well first off, you bastard, i am not a jew. i am a protestant christian. but people like you are probably anti-christ as well. freedom fighters? valaintly and heroically? what nation? first tehy kill innocent children, and tehn hide behind innocent palestinian families.

"They claimed" - BBC Article
First off, everyone knows that BBC is anti-semitic and anti-american, and pro-terrorist/ Yasser Arafat. And the British officers had no authorization form the israeli government. only the UN, which is trying to destroy Israel, and put the palestinians terrorists in power. And, it could've been the evil palestinian terrorist who shot at them. But, it doesn't matter what happeend. In the end, teh british will blame israel.

LOLOL you what??

The BBC is a news organisation. They report the news. That is what they do...report the news. Now if MP's claim something the BBC will report it....notice that (as you did - surprisingly as it is obvious you have a IQ of a gerbil) the report says that the MPS made the claim ..... not the BBC.

As for the BBC being anti semitic? If that was true then there would be no Jews who work for the BBC. Guess what? There are Jews that work for the BBC.

Pro terrorist? Prove it. You can't. Why? Because it is not.

I have no idea what you are babbling on about in regards to British Officers and the UN wishing to destroy the state of Isreal.

I would suggest you cease drinking the Kool Aid son.

Perhaps you should read about the invasion of Lebanon, the so called 'Christian' militia of Sharon and the crimes they commited as well as Unit 101. All are examples of hypocritical Israeli crimes, as well as the fact The Stern Gang were the first to use bombs in Cafes in the 30's to kill Palestinians.

Perhaps you should read about the invasion of Lebanon, the so called 'Christian' militia of Sharon and the crimes they commited as well as Unit 101. All are examples of hypocritical Israeli crimes, as well as the fact The Stern Gang were the first to use bombs in Cafes in the 30's to kill Palestinians.

I wonder who would have more reason to shoiot a group of Brittish politicians, the IDF or the Islamic terrorists who claim they are trying to free Palestine? After all there are no Brittish soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan. Militant Islslamists are behind the effort to brnig political rights to Iraq? But, lets just assume it was Israelis. That seems the most likely case, right?

Isreali soldiers shoot at British MP's....

Good god. It's gonna be the USS Liberty all over again

Isreali soldiers shoot at British MP's....

Good god. It's gonna be the USS Liberty all over again

Well remembered.....

Hellenic, you keep using names to help bolster your arguments, but it is easy to see that you know very little about what you are talking about. There was no Christian militia of Ariel Sharon. The Phalangist militia of Gemayel was an organization native to Lebanon that represented the Maronite Christians and their role in the power struggle between them and the Muslim Lebanese. The Phalangist became allies of Israel when Israel invaded, but the fact is the Phalangist used Israel, not the other way around. Israel only entered Lebanon to try to defeat the PLO, who had moved from Jordan to Lebanon after the Jordanians kicked them out. Israel's only target in Lebanon was the PLO, but the Phalangists lied to the Israelis and convinced them that their enemies were PLO, not native Lebanese militias. I have family in Lebanon right now visiting relatives that never managed to leave that poor war-torn country. You are out of your depth here, get lost.

You are just as blind as all of the people you claim to despise. You look at cases of hypocrisy and say 'look, there's the guilty one', when actually both sides have been hypocritical. You yourself are a hypocrite. Get used to it.

Alright, all you people are jumping to crazy conclusions yet again...First, it would not make much sense for Israelis to shoot their creators, without the British, Israel would not be around. Secondly, it would not make much sense for Palestinians to shoot at the British, because the British tried to make Palestine into a state, it failed horribly. (Now, we can go into the reasons why it failed, mainly the British wanted it to fail in order for them to regain control of their once colonies.) Thirdly, shooting happen constantly in that region, machine guns are everywhere, anyone could have shot those bullets. Fourthly, some Islamic Fundamentalists hate the west in its entirety (who am I kiding), any of them could have shot at the British.

Its nothing like the USS Liberty, which did happen at a time of war and mistakes are made. And lets not forget the ship was not in International waters, which most people want you to think was the case. It was off the coast of Egypt, Sinai to be particular, and as such was in an area allowed to be fired upon by any side due to its location in a theatre of conflict.

Next, the BBC is not anti-semetic, nor is it pro-terrorist. I pity the fool who thought that. In fact its probably one of the most middle grounded European news angencies. True, it has its complaints against Israel, and America. But it complains just as much against Palestine and other areas.

Next, the BBC is partial, no news is impartial. Meaning it does not just report the facts, it reports what the reporter thinks. Now if an anti-semetic reporter reports something then it sheds bad light on the agency it the eyes of a semite.

Next, where the Zionists during the 30's did use bombs. The first bombing squad ever developed was that from Islamic armies. During the Crusades Naptha, a type of chemical similar to gunpowder was lit and thrown into areas which crusaders were resting. Prior to that they were used to terrorize pilgrams to Jerusalem. After Naptha more advanced explosives were used to the same extent. Not to mention, there was animosity on both sides during the 30's. Jews killing Arabs, Arabs killing Jews, Arabs killing the British, Jews killing the British, the British killing everyone and stealing their stuff.

Finally, there is no conclusive evidence this even happened. Read the report people, it says there was no complaint prior to this story coming out in the news.

Hellenic, you keep using names to help bolster your arguments, but it is easy to see that you know very little about what you are talking about. There was no Christian militia of Ariel Sharon. The Phalangist militia of Gemayel was an organization native to Lebanon that represented the Maronite Christians and their role in the power struggle between them and the Muslim Lebanese. The Phalangist became allies of Israel when Israel invaded, but the fact is the Phalangist used Israel, not the other way around. Israel only entered Lebanon to try to defeat the PLO, who had moved from Jordan to Lebanon after the Jordanians kicked them out. Israel's only target in Lebanon was the PLO, but the Phalangists lied to the Israelis and convinced them that their enemies were PLO, not native Lebanese militias. I have family in Lebanon right now visiting relatives that never managed to leave that poor war-torn country. You are out of your depth here, get lost.

You are just as blind as all of the people you claim to despise. You look at cases of hypocrisy and say 'look, there's the guilty one', when actually both sides have been hypocritical. You yourself are a hypocrite. Get used to it.

Thank you. i was going to write a long reply to what that person said, but it was lost due to this server. any way, i am glad i didnt, becaus eas Formal Dances told me, it is useless to argue with people who wont accept it. anyways, thank you for taking the time to write a sensible argument. thankyou.

Next, where the Zionists during the 30's did use bombs.


*Sighs* Read up on the Stern Gang, alot of the methods Palestinian Freedom Fighters used today they used in the 30's.

Israel's only target in Lebanon was the PLO, but the Phalangists lied to the Israelis and convinced them that their enemies were PLO, not native Lebanese militias.


Didn't stop them killing thousands of Lebanese civilians when shelling Beirut, as for the Christian Militia, they were highly supportive of Sharon, thats why I called them 'Sharon's militia', I suggest YOU stop looking at these problems from your totally one sided view simply because you are a Jew.

Jews already have everything thier own way, I was astounded that when I went to America, New York and I said Merry Christmas to someone a guy coming out of Macy's heard me and said: "Dont say that! The Jews dont like it!" Arrogance, reverse racism, flaunting of International Law this is why anti-semitism is growing, because The far right exploit these actions (and why shouldn't they? - If its going to bring light to a situation) to justify thier cause.

Although I am aware that my wording in that quote was somewhat awkward and perhaps prone to misunderstanding, that quote was actually referring to the massacres that you brought up. You are, however, confusing two separate situations. There were some cases of Israeli shelling killing civilians (but shelling of the city was limited out of a desire to prevent civilian casualties), but that was in the hundreds. The only mass killings in the thousands that occured in Beirut happened at the hands of the Phalangist militia. Although it is true that they had Israel's passive aid, few if any actual killing was done by any Israelis in that case. The Phalangists tricked the Israelis into believing that inside the camps were militants friendly to the PLO, when in actuality it was just an attempt by the Phalangists to get rid of some local rivals. The Israelis were convinced into establishing a cordon around the area while the Phalangists would go inside and round up the "militants" (the Israelis, lacking any real intelligence, were forced to rely almost exclusively upon the Phalangists for their information in Lebanon). The Israelis were negligent, criminally so, in allowing the Phalangists to kill civilians, and it represents the worst war crime of that conflict.

My religion is not at issue here, and I refuse to make it one. I will neither confirm nor deny what religion I am, because it is irrelevant to my case. I have friends and family of almost any conceivable religion, whereas I cannot help but assume that you live in a homogenous area that encourages you to develop stereotypical views of the rest of the world. You are gradually showing yourself to be a bigot, and that is not a name that I throw around casually. Did you think it was a coincidence that all of your enemies seem to you to be the most vile creatures that ever walked the earth? Demonizing your opponents will take you nowhere and teach you nothing.

It is unfortunate that your type of reasoning is typical of the young and ignorant (although it is certainly possible to be one without the other), and as I can not help you to see what you do not wish to see I have nothing more to say to you. Good luck

The Israelis are known to take pot-shots over the heads of UN personnel. They do it pretty regularly to the UN force stationed on the Israeli-Lebanese border. Why? -- Because they can, and to make these folks soil their pants :wink:
As for the Islamists, if they were in the "mood for love", they'd shoot at the poor suckers, rather than 10 ft over their heads.

First off, notice the following parts of the article:


The Israeli Army later said it was not aware of the alleged shooting but would investigate.

It emphasised that the delegation of politicians did not coordinate their arrival with either the foreign ministry or the defence ministry.

...Mr Irranca Davies said the first he knew of what was happening was when he heard the rattle of a machine gun.

"We withdrew to the jeeps and as we were getting in, it was followed by some pretty accurate warning shots which fired above our heads and hit a building."

In other words,

1)The British MPs went into the war zone without warning the IDF of their presence, thus losing any right to complain on being treated with suspicion as any ordinary person, and not as VIPs
2)To those who weren't scared shitless like the baroness was, it was clear that the shots were warning shots, not intended to kill

But most importantly, it is not even clear WHO fired the shots!!!

A source said it was unclear whether shots had been fired, and if so by whom.

Now who is this source? The IDF? Nope, the British.

British officials told Reuters that it's too early to determine whether the legislators had come under Israeli or Palestinian fire, and that the British government would investigate the matter in cooperation with Israeli officials
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087628458935&p=1078027574121

In other words, the BBC quotes a panicking baroness whining "Oh my God, those evil Israelis want to kill me", while the shots were not aimed to kill and there is no evidence that those were Israelis shooting, and Vonners and others immediately jump to conclusions. Can we all say "prejudice"? :roll:

First off, notice the following parts of the article:


The Israeli Army later said it was not aware of the alleged shooting but would investigate.

It emphasised that the delegation of politicians did not coordinate their arrival with either the foreign ministry or the defence ministry.

...Mr Irranca Davies said the first he knew of what was happening was when he heard the rattle of a machine gun.

"We withdrew to the jeeps and as we were getting in, it was followed by some pretty accurate warning shots which fired above our heads and hit a building."

In other words,

1)The British MPs went into the war zone without warning the IDF of their presence, thus losing any right to complain on being treated with suspicion as any ordinary person, and not as VIPs
2)To those who weren't scared shitless like the baroness was, it was clear that the shots were warning shots, not intended to kill

But most importantly, it is not even clear WHO fired the shots!!!

A source said it was unclear whether shots had been fired, and if so by whom.

Now who is this source? The IDF? Nope, the British.

British officials told Reuters that it's too early to determine whether the legislators had come under Israeli or Palestinian fire, and that the British government would investigate the matter in cooperation with Israeli officials
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087628458935&p=1078027574121

In other words, the BBC quotes a panicking baroness whining "Oh my God, those evil Israelis want to kill me", while the shots were not aimed to kill and there is no evidence that those were Israelis shooting, and Vonners and others immediately jump to conclusions. Can we all say "prejudice"? :roll:

Hang on a sec! Where do *I* jump to conclusions??????

Where have stated anything 'prejudicial'?

Or are you going to call me an anti semite as well???

First off, notice the following parts of the article:


The Israeli Army later said it was not aware of the alleged shooting but would investigate.

It emphasised that the delegation of politicians did not coordinate their arrival with either the foreign ministry or the defence ministry.

...Mr Irranca Davies said the first he knew of what was happening was when he heard the rattle of a machine gun.

"We withdrew to the jeeps and as we were getting in, it was followed by some pretty accurate warning shots which fired above our heads and hit a building."

In other words,

1)The British MPs went into the war zone without warning the IDF of their presence, thus losing any right to complain on being treated with suspicion as any ordinary person, and not as VIPs
2)To those who weren't scared shitless like the baroness was, it was clear that the shots were warning shots, not intended to kill

But most importantly, it is not even clear WHO fired the shots!!!

A source said it was unclear whether shots had been fired, and if so by whom.

Now who is this source? The IDF? Nope, the British.

British officials told Reuters that it's too early to determine whether the legislators had come under Israeli or Palestinian fire, and that the British government would investigate the matter in cooperation with Israeli officials
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087628458935&p=1078027574121

In other words, the BBC quotes a panicking baroness whining "Oh my God, those evil Israelis want to kill me", while the shots were not aimed to kill and there is no evidence that those were Israelis shooting, and Vonners and others immediately jump to conclusions. Can we all say "prejudice"? :roll:

Hang on a sec! Where do *I* jump to conclusions??????

Where have I stated anything 'prejudicial'?

Or are you going to call me an anti semite as well???

In other words, the BBC quotes a panicking baroness whining "Oh my God, those evil Israelis want to kill me", while the shots were not aimed to kill and there is no evidence that those were Israelis shooting, and Vonners and others immediately jump to conclusions. Can we all say "prejudice"? :roll:

Hang on a sec! Where do *I* jump to conclusions??????

Where have I stated anything 'prejudicial'?
In the very headline of your thread :roll:


Or are you going to call me an anti semite as well???
Not unless you give me a valid reason. If you do though, I will hardly hesitate.

In other words, the BBC quotes a panicking baroness whining "Oh my God, those evil Israelis want to kill me", while the shots were not aimed to kill and there is no evidence that those were Israelis shooting, and Vonners and others immediately jump to conclusions. Can we all say "prejudice"? :roll:

Hang on a sec! Where do *I* jump to conclusions??????

Where have I stated anything 'prejudicial'?
In the very headline of your thread :roll:


Or are you going to call me an anti semite as well???
Not unless you give me a valid reason. If you do though, I will hardly hesitate.

Bugger!!! well I did also say that it was a good thing! :)

Bugger!!! well I did also say that it was a good thing! :)
That you did. I am considering opening a political Safari in the Gaza strip. You deliver the foreign politicians and tourists from the same countries who want to target practice at their leaders, I provide rifles and Uzis from the IDF military surplas, and my Palestinian friend finds us a banana plantation to rent as a hunting ground. Could prove to be a thriving business :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't bring in Bush though; our only airport would collapse from the flood of eager hunters :wink:

Bugger!!! well I did also say that it was a good thing! :)
That you did. I am considering opening a political Safari in the Gaza strip. You deliver the foreign politicians and tourists from the same countries who want to target practice at their leaders, I provide rifles and Uzis from the IDF military surplas, and my Palestinian friend finds us a banana plantation to rent as a hunting ground. Could prove to be a thriving business :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't bring in Bush though; our only airport would collapse from the flood of eager hunters :wink:

LOL I'd be too tempted to deep six the lot of them!

Sorry, hit wrong button. Anyway, who else wants to join in? This new project will need investments!!!

I wonder who would have more reason to shoiot a group of Brittish politicians, the IDF or the Islamic terrorists who claim they are trying to free Palestine? After all there are no Brittish soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan. Militant Islslamists are behind the effort to brnig political rights to Iraq? But, lets just assume it was Israelis. That seems the most likely case, right?

Why should we assume the Israelis?...for all we know the Palestinians saw white christian Americans...seems to me that is more the case and ti was them who fired on the British.