NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

and as i have said before you are gonna end up going to hell mister necrophilla i will go lick dead womans nether reginons yeah i am sure mother marry is laughing at you (by the way i don't normaly say mother marry),

futher i would like to see cold hard evidence that he doesn't exist

Typing coherenetly is your friend.


You can't proove god does or doesn't exist. God is like Maddox. I like God. I like Maddox. Most people who like Maddox are idiotic dickheads who take everything out of proportion. Most people who like God are too.

beliving that god doesn't exist is point-less mainly becasue if he doe's then you go to hell, and if he doesn't then you go thru you're whole life fearing death.

beliving that god doesn't exist is point-less mainly becasue if he doe's then you go to hell, and if he doesn't then you go thru you're whole life fearing death.

I don't believe in an afterlife, and I don't fear death either. If there is a God, I don't believe they would be a dickhead fuck who would send people to hell for not following an inconsistent book. I don't think any religion has it right.

futher i would like to see cold hard evidence that he doesn't exist

I can show you the evidence once you prove that the Invisible Pink Pony doesn't exist.

Most people who like God do so only because parents and society tell them to. Why do I like God? Probably to use him as a crutch, you would think. But I spent the last 16 years of my life as an atheist, then all of a sudden God found me. While I still have my frequent doubts of his very existance, I tend to feel His grace in me at least every few days. During the times when I do not feel him as distinctly are when I begin to doubt, but they do not last.
So many of the Christians you run into have been trained to love God for all the wrong reasons, and therefore come towards the generally sensible people who are atheists with stupidity, making Christianity seem even more insane. I ask you only to look beyond the advocates of Christianity (misguided and incoherent fools) and look toward the Bible, towards God himself.

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

Uh...And where is your proof? :?

God is a scapegoat. The bible is a patchwork of fairy tales. You may now call me Satan. Thank you.

The most powerful argument for god's existence is this: the Bible. You can relate every argument that he's real to the bible, but that won't change the fact that it is a book. If god is real because a book says so, then so is Sherlock Holmes. So is Frodo Baggins. So is Hercules. You get the idea. The point being, you can't just say "The Bible says he is real" and expect people to jump into the pew next to you and start praying for salvation.

Most people who like God do so only because parents and society tell them to. Why do I like God? Probably to use him as a crutch, you would think. But I spent the last 16 years of my life as an atheist, then all of a sudden God found me. While I still have my frequent doubts of his very existance, I tend to feel His grace in me at least every few days. During the times when I do not feel him as distinctly are when I begin to doubt, but they do not last.
So many of the Christians you run into have been trained to love God for all the wrong reasons, and therefore come towards the generally sensible people who are atheists with stupidity, making Christianity seem even more insane. I ask you only to look beyond the advocates of Christianity (misguided and incoherent fools) and look toward the Bible, towards God himself.

I would like to hear more about how you came to convert to atheism, and then how you came to convert to christianity.

Peer pressure.

God is allmighty and he created all says the bible.
God can destroy all evil at the blink of an eye, but he doesn't....
God created evil, because evil is part of all.....
God created man, and knew what would happen (he is after all allmighty)

You could conclude god is a sadist.....

Uh...And where is your proof? :?

Right - a lot of jesus-mongers have echoed this point. A valid question, I suppose.

Can you prove to me that the boogeyman doesn't exist? Insert whatever ficticious creature you like in place of the boogey-man. But do you see the problem? The burden of proof is on me in this case, not you. I can't prove that the boogeyman exists. Can you prove to me that your god-monster exists?

Also, this is great:

beliving that god doesn't exist is point-less mainly becasue if he doe's then you go to hell, and if he doesn't then you go thru you're whole life fearing death.

While I do appreciate the wanton hyphenation, this makes me both laugh and pity you. If your reason for belief in god is because you are afraid to deal with the logical consequences, in your words, going through life fearing death, then perhaps you ought to try to face your fear instead of hiding behind a crucifix. Also, Douglas Adams once said something like, "If god is impressed by people who believe in him because they think it's safer than risking going to hell if they don't, I don't know if I want to be a part of that kind of a set-up."

"Groundwire God" is the result of the undisciplined mind being incapable of rationlizing it's surroundings. If religious orientation suddenly sprang into exisence today instead of predating modern psychology by millenia, it would be classified as a mental illness along the lines of schizophrenia and we'd be adding clozapine as well as fluoride to the water supply.

Don't rot your teeth kids! :P

"Groundwire God" is the result of the undisciplined mind being incapable of rationlizing it's surroundings. If religious orientation suddenly sprang into exisence today instead of predating modern psychology by millenia, it would be classified as a mental illness along the lines of schizophrenia and we'd be adding clozapine as well as fluoride to the water supply.

Don't rot your teeth kids! :P

Or they'd call it "Scientology."

Christianity is not the be-all and end-all of religions. Not only that, you don't have to subscribe to any particular religion to believe that God exists. You only have to believe that something is out there that makes all of existence mean something. Whether or not that is true is unprovable, but I believe that believing it to be true has made me a better person, and more likely to try to find more meaning in my own life than simply satisfying my creature comforts.

As far as causes go, I think religion is a better one than nation, ethnicity, or any of the myriad of other groupings that people devote their lives to. God doesn't exist for us to believe in him, but by that same token he could exist even if we don't believe. My belief has made me a better person, and even though the argument of practicality is not the reason why I believe in God, surely it is better to believe in something that improves you even if it is unprovable.

God's existence was never proved by the Bible. The Bible is a book that we believe that God gave us, it is not the same kind of belief that God exists. We might be wrong about the Bible, and therefore what exactly God's message is, but that doesn't mean we are wrong about God.

I'm not really interested in sparking an argument here. I just find it annoying when people make the claim that atheism is more valid than religion. I might be able to agree with you that each is unprovable, but I cannot accept these faulty arguments that try to discredit religion.

The most powerful argument for god's existence is this: the Bible.

Really?

That is a very Christian viewpoint.

An argument could be made for the case that the most compelling evidence for the existence of God is the fact that throughout geographically and culturally divided peoples throughout history there has been the idea of God or of gods. The universality of the religious drive and the similarity of the ideas which societies produce to fulfill it can be argued to be a kind of evidence for the existence of God.

Of course... at the same time an argument can be made on exactly the same basis that such a universal drive within humanity tells us not about the Divine order, but instead about the peculiar historical accidents of our evolutionary history and the strange features that were thrown up along the way.

Lebonia, that's all well and good, but I would like to know WHY you believe in god, since you say you know that practicality isn't the argument.

I would argue that atheism is more "valid." I could make up a deity any time and you would be as unable to disprove it's existence as I would be unable to disprove the existance of yours. Would you believe in mine? I hope not. Neither would I believe in yours. Do you see what I mean by more "valid" now?

Furthermore, the idea of god is such a human construct - it reeks of human thought's shortcomings, and as soon as the modern age was able to uncover its fallacies, atheism developed. In our age, we don't need god. Rather, I should say we SHOULDN'T need god - I suppose there are those whose belief makes them better people, but why can't you just be a good person without some kind of flying monster to fear?

Uh...And where is your proof? :?

Right - a lot of jesus-mongers have echoed this point. A valid question, I suppose.

Can you prove to me that the boogeyman doesn't exist? Insert whatever ficticious creature you like in place of the boogey-man. But do you see the problem? The burden of proof is on me in this case, not you. I can't prove that the boogeyman exists. Can you prove to me that your god-monster exists?
I am not religious in any way. I am not a "Jesus-monger" so please do not assume that I am.

The Boogeyman? How can a "monster" live in my closet/under my bed? There's no proof of it, besides the usual children who are frightened after watching a horror film on TV and starts to imagine things.

I do not believe God exists. But there is "proof" of Him/Her/It: The Bible.

I would argue that atheism is more "valid."

Possibly, but isn't agnosticism even more valid than that?*



*I am aware that validity is an either/or thing, and doesn't come in categories of more or less valid, but, hey, you know what I mean...

WOO! GO INTOLERANCE!!!
If you say 'Now, WHY exactly are you homosexual?' you are evil and intolerant, but if you say 'God is teh stoopidzor!' your OK.
Whatever.

seriusly speaking look at history and the ppl who believe in god, kristianity (don't know if it spelled that way) is one of the most evil religions ever, they are worse then the nazi, look at their sign, the cross, it's a thing they used to exectute ppl with. the reason why many ppl believe in god, is as one of you said that their parents does. the reason ppl started to believe in him was because they would be killed else, and many were... thee only difference between a cult and a religion is that the cult dies with the leader while the religion got someone that takes over/spreads it after the leader, this can be found in all the current religions expect hindu, which is the oldest so it probally got highest chans to be right. no offence to them if there's any islam ppl here but muhammed was a bandit who collect followers and made attacks with them....

dark future wrote:
and as i have said before you are gonna end up going to hell mister

all forgivenly god not possible to go to hell...

further more i do believe that if someone wants to believe something they should, but if i started to worship e.g. little red goblins with funny hats i would end up in a mental hospital, if anyone said he was jesus it's the same thing.. and i don't hate all religions and i don't believe in the big bang (thats just silly "at first there was nothing then it exploaded") and satan is probaly nicer then god if i undertood the bible right...

WOO! GO INTOLERANCE!!!
If you say 'Now, WHY exactly are you homosexual?' you are evil and intolerant, but if you say 'God is teh stoopidzor!' your OK.
Whatever.

Hooray! I was hoping someone would say something like that.

Indeed this thread was inspired by the gay riot thread in incidents.

Yeah, it is like that and here's-a-why:

Homosexuals can't help being homosexual, it's part of their nature and largely biological. If you hate them for that, you might as well go and kill every brown person.

God is something you believe against all better reasoning. That's your own willingness to be cowed by your peers, your inability to see fallacy, whatever. Point is, it's cause you've some reasoning deficit. God is a stupid idea, and terribly outdated. You can stop believing in god; I did when I was 12 or so - it wasn't that hard then, and presumably you're all mostly older than that.

So anyway, good luck getting over the hump everyone - believe me things are much better on this side.

Don't know whether or not God exists. To me, the lack of complete knowledge makes for a more fascinating and mysterious universe. Your mileage may vary, natch.

What I find most fascinating is that such an illiterate post should begin such a fascinating discussion.

What I find most fascinating is that such an illiterate post should begin such a fascinating discussion.

That was the idea. Figured I'd get the riff-raff angry and see what happens. Hell, they do it all the time.

If a homosexual cant help being homosexual, can a Christian help being Christian?
Its all a matter of beleif, if you BELEIVE Homosexuality is right, go for it. I have ZERO against homosexuals, I dont support it, I wont say its good, but I certainly wont go and attack a homosexual just because hes a homosexual.
'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is a bit higher than 'Thou shalt not suffer a homosexual to live' which doesnt appear at all.

Now, show me some of this reasoning for why God doesnt exist. God is not outdated because God is forever, yes, forever. As in the longest amount of time possible, 'Alpha and Omega' and all that.

If a homosexual cant help being homosexual, can a Christian help being Christian?
Its all a matter of beleif, if you BELEIVE Homosexuality is right, go for it. I have ZERO against homosexuals, I dont support it, I wont say its good, but I certainly wont go and attack a homosexual just because hes a homosexual.
'Thou Shalt Not Kill' is a bit higher than 'Thou shalt not suffer a homosexual to live' which doesnt appear at all.

Now, show me some of this reasoning for why God doesnt exist. God is not outdated because God is forever, yes, forever. As in the longest amount of time possible, 'Alpha and Omega' and all that.

Why is god forever? Because the bibble says so? The burden of proof is on you. Anyway, homosexuality is mostly biological - there are cultural aspects to it as well, sure, but I can't imagine trying to suppress my sexual orientation and it's the same for them. Biology. A christian can stop being a christian and I'm living proof of that. I was even born christian, they dunked my head and everything. But that's not intrinsic - I mean maybe one can be prone to if if one has an aversion to reasoning, but no biology there.

Furthermore, the idea of god is such a human construct - it reeks of human thought's shortcomings, and as soon as the modern age was able to uncover its fallacies, atheism developed. In our age, we don't need god. Rather, I should say we SHOULDN'T need god - I suppose there are those whose belief makes them better people, but why can't you just be a good person without some kind of flying monster to fear?
Wrong, some people do need religion. They rely on it to prevent them from doing the things that they normally would do. Some people would steal, cheat, or even murder others without giving it a second thought if it were not for their belief in religion. Of course, there are some religious fanatics out there who would kill others over their beliefs, but they fail to realize that that is not the point of religion. Religion is basically (to me) a bunch of rules and guidelines that one can follow to have a better life. People fear the consequences of not following these rules, so they abide by them.

And do you really believe humans are naturally “good?” Hah! Without rules and guidelines, humanity would have been gone long ago.

*I hate this server* :evil:

Someone posted this to this forum a while back. It caught my interest.

"It's in your best interest to believe in God. If you believe in God, and you're right, then you go to Heaven. If you do, and you're wrong, then death is the end and it doesn't matter. If you don't, and you're right, then death is the end and it doesn't matter. If you don't, and you're wrong..."

God is forever because He said so. If you want to disagree, you can lodge a formal complain when you die ;)

I know several former homosexuals, so whos to say a former Christian isnt basicaly the same thing. I couldnt imagine trying to supress my religion. Relgion and sexual orientation are kinda like smoking :P

And before you bring up 'Horrible persecution', Ill have you know that Im mostly Irish and Native American, my relatives in Ireland lived in a village somewhere and the worst they ever did was burn one witch and kill a few Romans :P, and of course my Native American relatives were massacred occasionaly, which is of course the fault of George Bush and his anti-Native policies 8)

Wrong, some people do need religion. They rely on it to prevent them from doing the things that they normally would do. Some people would steal, cheat, or even murder others without giving it a second thought if it were not for their belief in religion. Of course, there are some religious fanatics out there who would kill others over their beliefs, but they fail to realize that that is not the point of religion. Religion is basically (to me) a bunch of rules and guidelines that one can follow to have a better life. People fear the consequences of not following these rules, so they abide by them.

And do you really believe humans are naturally “good?” Hah! Without rules and guidelines, humanity would have been gone long ago.

*I hate this server* :evil:

Well that's what I meant by god being outdated. We can have rules and be honest with each other and ourselves without a flying god-monster to worry about. Maybe in the past religion was the way to make the rules, but now it does more harm than good - it breeds ignorance, hostility, and fear in its followers (check out what the majority of li'l jeesi have to say about gays, though I concur some of them have agreed not to kill them all) and it does more harm than good to society what with all the "them killing us in the name of god, but god is really on our side, lets kill them in his name." Among other things.

I'm getting pretty tired at this point, sorry if my posts get all wobbly.

futher i would like to see cold hard evidence that he doesn't exist

I can show you the evidence once you prove that the Invisible Pink Pony doesn't exist.

If its invisible...what makes you think its pink?

Well that's what I meant by god being outdated. We can have rules and be honest with each other and ourselves without a flying god-monster to worry about. Maybe in the past religion was the way to make the rules, but now it does more harm than good - it breeds ignorance, hostility, and fear in its followers (check out what the majority of li'l jeesi have to say about gays, though I concur some of them have agreed not to kill them all) and it does more harm than good to society what with all the "them killing us in the name of god, but god is really on our side, lets kill them in his name." Among other things

Why? Its true. In the past the way to make the rules was to have the biggest club, and say "I Zok, you bow or I bash head good!".
SOME religious breed hostility. I dont think Baptists have much direct involvement in starting holy wars, nor do our leaders attempt to instil fear of hellfire and brimstone in us...usualy.
Our pastors opinion, as well as most of the churches, on gays is the same as mine 'I dissaprove, but its your life, your soul, maybe at some point I will bring the topic up, but we wont bug you about it until you die.'
Again, Thou Shalt Not Kill stands head, shoulders, knees and toes above homosexual bloodbaths.
Would you rather people said 'Lets kill them in the name of the King', or 'Lets kill them in the name of the Peoples Socialist Progression Movement for the Liberation of Whatsitstan.', 'cause I've got news, 9/10 of 'religious' wars would happen whether we had religion or not.
Terrorists would still have blown something big and important up in the US, they just would have had a differnt excuse.

If a homosexual cant help being homosexual, can a Christian help being Christian?
Its all a matter of beleif, if you BELEIVE Homosexuality is right, go for it. I have ZERO against homosexuals, I dont support it, I wont say its good, but I certainly wont go and attack a homosexual just because hes a homosexual.

Since this thread was inspired a public display of lunacy in International Incidents, I wil clarify something here. I will try to type really slowly for those who can't get it through their skulls.

Firstly, homosexuality is not a belief. It is the state of being attracted to the same sex and the absence of interest for the opposite. It is also often accompanied by trangendered behavioral characteristics. Many heterosexual believe 'it's ok to be gay' but don't engage in the activity. Some homosexuals believe it's 'not ok' and either do or do not engage in it (ego-dystonia/self-loathing).

I think the biggest problem people have in trying to understand gays is they are in effect translpanting a gender atypical sexual identity onto their own ego which then creates a clash. Curiously, in some it envokes violent actions, vociferousness, extrinsic religiosity but the common theme in all is irrational fear and behavior. Interesting lot some of you are.
:twisted:

I should think that you have to believe in something to be it. Amoung other things, you would need to believe that you were homosexual, since being a homosexual who thought you were a heterosexual would be a challenge, most likely involving LSD or some other hallucenogen (sp?).

I dont try to understand gays, I accept them fully as long as they dont try anything on me, and so far none have. I have a gay friend, I also have a female friend (God forbit, a GIRL friend!), in fact, I have a number of girl friends, and most likely several closet homosexual friends, and maybe a few self-denying homosexual friends, and maybe the outwardly gay homosexual is in fact a closet heterosexual!
Wowee, possibilities abound.

I Zok, you bow or I bash head good!

come on, nobody ever spoke like that.

Well, its basicaly true.
'Might makes right' applied. Unlike Letilia I dont think your average cave person lived in an anarchy.

I should think that you have to believe in something to be it. Amoung other things, you would need to believe that you were homosexual, since being a homosexual who thought you were a heterosexual would be a challenge, most likely involving LSD or some other hallucenogen (sp?).




*rings buzzer*

errr, no! In my particular case it didn't occur to me it was a sexual possibility until some time later but the orientation was there and the "normal" one was not. After doing some reading I realized, oh cripes, that's what it is. Instinctual behavior is not a product of the concious mind, beliefs are.

Gays are different to the mass, so people are scared. Even with them being humans and not harming anyone by being gay, its sitll feared for no reason. Spiders are feared because they are ugly and can bite (though the vast majority is not dangerous to humans). Humans fear everything that is not like them, thus also why the first contact with aliens will most likely result in a disaster. Humans are curious but will not accept something that is different than the majority to be among them.

I should think that you have to believe in something to be it. Amoung other things, you would need to believe that you were homosexual, since being a homosexual who thought you were a heterosexual would be a challenge, most likely involving LSD or some other hallucenogen (sp?).




*rings buzzer*

errr, no! In my particular case it didn't occur to me it was a sexual possibility until some time later but the orientation was there and the "normal" one was not. After doing some reading I realized, oh cripes, that's what it is. Instinctual behavior is not a product of the concious mind, beliefs are.
Well, I can try very hard not to believe in God, but its not working, I can SAY it all I want, but I know its true and my brain, soul, or whatever you happen to think of as the 'in charge' organ, sicko, refuses to accept all 'logical' evidence from my concious mind, and five minutes later after a thorough de-Godding, my brain taps me on the metaphorical shoulder and says 'Have you been Saved?'.

I should think that you have to believe in something to be it. Amoung other things, you would need to believe that you were homosexual, since being a homosexual who thought you were a heterosexual would be a challenge, most likely involving LSD or some other hallucenogen (sp?).




*rings buzzer*

errr, no! In my particular case it didn't occur to me it was a sexual possibility until some time later but the orientation was there and the "normal" one was not. After doing some reading I realized, oh cripes, that's what it is. Instinctual behavior is not a product of the concious mind, beliefs are.
Well, I can try very hard not to believe in God, but its not working, I can SAY it all I want, but I know its true and my brain, soul, or whatever you happen to think of as the 'in charge' organ, sicko, refuses to accept all 'logical' evidence from my concious mind, and five minutes later after a thorough de-Godding, my brain taps me on the metaphorical shoulder and says 'Have you been Saved?'.

The organ in charge I am referring to, sicko, is the hypothalamus, a pea sized blob in the lower brain. This God thing you are hung upon is, to risk repeating myself, your inability to rationalize your environment and is a product of the super-ego, a concious division of your mind. AT any rate you aren't making a bit of sense so toodles.

Well, you dont have to be rude.

Anyway, I was trying to be accepting of people who think that certain other parts are in control, heart, lungs, liver, spleen, whatever.

God is not a product of my mind, God simply exists.
And my ego isnt all that big :lol:

God is a scapegoat. The bible is a patchwork of fairy tales. You may now call me Satan. Thank you.

wow, I actually agree with Gigatron.... :shock:

My problem with god is simple - he's never consistent. Sometimes they say he's one person, and supports Christians. Other times, he's a thousand little dudes, and hates Christianity. And even sometimes, yes, he is a Pink Invisible Pony. So just what is he? If he is everything, and believes and enforces everything, then he is simply all, in which case, he cannot have any rules or any influence over us - otherwise, someone has to be wrong in their belief, in which case the whole "God" argument comes into question completely. So, what is it - no God, or Pink Pony?

I would argue that atheism is more "valid."
possibly but if you really don't belive then why the hell do you need a group for it becasue uh well um isn't gonna cut it what i think the reason is God made human kind to havea single defining group in which it was comfortable large and right which is helpful to it's members in you're case it is being encouraged in what you belive in, for me it's the hope love and embrasse i get, yes i am probbaly diging up dry bones to do this but my point is at least some what valid

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

Well I think the Biblical interpretations of 'God' are quite distorted. And I also challenge the concept of 'Original Sin' (rather than being Sin I regard it as something else, something that would take me too long to explain here). While I dont hate the concept of religion I am ticked off by all these fundies

Gays are different to the mass, so people are scared. Even with them being humans and not harming anyone by being gay, its sitll feared for no reason. Spiders are feared because they are ugly and can bite (though the vast majority is not dangerous to humans). Humans fear everything that is not like them, thus also why the first contact with aliens will most likely result in a disaster. Humans are curious but will not accept something that is different than the majority to be among them.
fear has absoultly nothing to do with it mist i am so full of it, i think people are scared becasue they don't like people. ah i love that people hate me for what i am saying, you know you should be sacerd of us by you're own theory.

I would argue that atheism is more "valid."
possibly but if you really don't belive then why the hell do you need a group for it becasue uh well um isn't gonna cut it what i think the reason is God made human kind to havea single defining group in which it was comfortable large and right which is helpful to it's members in you're case it is being encouraged in what you belive in, for me it's the hope love and embrasse i get, yes i am probbaly diging up dry bones to do this but my point is at least some what valid

The reason God invented punctuation was so that we can understand each other. I don't know what you were trying to communicate for the most part, but I think the idea is why do atheists feel the need to band together if we really don't believe in your magic monsters?

Well, I don't think we do. It's people like you who feel the need to group everyone, and because we agree with each other you lump us into some kind of religious grouping, probably because it's easier on your limited worldview. But I have never been to a congregation of atheists or anything - I don't know what your conception of being an atheist is, but it's not like we have a pope and a newsletter.

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

And I say you're wong. Prove differently.

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

And I say you're wong. Prove differently.

read the thread

You know what bothers me more than radical fundamentalists??...



Radical athiests.


And I'm a firm believer in God.. I have many atheist friends and we get into many discussions regarding the existance of God.. Personally, I don't find any inconsistencies with my religion, and the good thing is, it's mostly supported by science..

Terrible how the West started a fourth world war against our 'evil empire'...
:roll:

Oh, and for the record, I'm an 'islam ppl'.. I follow a bandit who attacked caravans.. woohoo.. at least history has proven not all bandits are bad.. look at Robin Hood.. :roll:

A wise man once said "You can be right about things and still have people wanting to kick you in the teeth. You can be hated because you’re wrong, stupid, and annoying."
In other words just because you are hated does not mean you are right.

As for god... God either exists, existed, or never existed. God is dead said Nietzsche. God is a flow/ force of energy says others. God is a five year old with a magnifying glass standing over and anthill. God is in the details. God is..... God both exist and does not exist. God is a paradox, being a paradox god cannot interact with this plain of reality much like those particles that exist and do not exist at the same time. Therefore god only exist in our imagination... well that is one theory... God is a concept of naturally occurring patterns, and coincidences that our primitive minds conceive as the divine. So many ideas as to what God is; what does God think of them? To bad God has not shown up in about two thousand years to tell us.

As for those who say “You will go to hell because you do not know of God.” What of the deaf and blind before brail? Were they condemned to hell because they could not comprehend a cross and bible, or could not speak the Lord’s prayer? What of the mentally challenged? What of all those that thought they were doing right, and obeying the laws before god ever showed up on their shores and land. Is it really their fault they did not know of god?

God is a load of hooey

Which God?

Gays are different to the mass, so people are scared. Even with them being humans and not harming anyone by being gay, its sitll feared for no reason. Spiders are feared because they are ugly and can bite (though the vast majority is not dangerous to humans). Humans fear everything that is not like them, thus also why the first contact with aliens will most likely result in a disaster. Humans are curious but will not accept something that is different than the majority to be among them.
fear has absoultly nothing to do with it mist i am so full of it, i think people are scared becasue they don't like people. ah i love that people hate me for what i am saying, you know you should be sacerd of us by you're own theory.
I just hate you for how you're saying it! I don't hate you for what you're saying...yet...
Are you the guy we argued with for a while about whether or not English is your first language? It's obviously not, I'm just wondering if you have a first language at all...
As for the topic...I don't have much to add. Except, like was mentioned previously...If you don't believe in god, it simply does NOT make the most sense to pretend to "just in case" For one, if there is no god, you will have lived your life differently than you wanted, and for what? If there is a god, I would suspect he could see through your guise and would probably send you to exTREME hell for trying to trick god. Cause really....who's dumb enough to think they could pull that off?

If you don't believe in god, it simply does NOT make the most sense to pretend to "just in case" For one, if there is no god, you will have lived your life differently than you wanted, and for what? If there is a god, I would suspect he could see through your guise and would probably send you to exTREME hell for trying to trick god. Cause really....who's dumb enough to think they could pull that off?
Nice. Goes along with the 'if I'm a nice person but still want fish on fridays, do I still burn?'

read the thread

I did. You haven't offered anything new.

I would argue that atheism is more "valid."
possibly but if you really don't belive then why the hell do you need a group for it becasue uh well um isn't gonna cut it what i think the reason is God made human kind to havea single defining group in which it was comfortable large and right which is helpful to it's members in you're case it is being encouraged in what you belive in, for me it's the hope love and embrasse i get, yes i am probbaly diging up dry bones to do this but my point is at least some what valid

The reason God invented punctuation was so that we can understand each other. I don't know what you were trying to communicate for the most part, but I think the idea is why do atheists feel the need to band together if we really don't believe in your magic monsters?

Well, I don't think we do. It's people like you who feel the need to group everyone, and because we agree with each other you lump us into some kind of religious grouping, probably because it's easier on your limited worldview. But I have never been to a congregation of atheists or anything - I don't know what your conception of being an atheist is, but it's not like we have a pope and a newsletter.
First, Sad-sad is right, athiests don't group together-thats the whole point. Athiest is the "don't play" option. (though there is a newsletter, a magazine with a small circulation. Mostly on how nuts evangelists are. For the record, thats the biggest concern, which leads me to this-)

Maybe it is time that athiests do start banding together to protect ourselves. Why?

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
And because that phrase, added to the pledge during the hieght of the cold war to seperate ourselves from 'godless communism' was upheld on a technicality in the supreme court. Right now across the country Moral Majority members are going from county to county organizing church members to run for school board positions so they can make decisions like teaching creationism in favor of evolution and adding religous practices to school. The atheists do not organize, don't meet on Sundays and are not equiped to fight this grassroots movement. If we did organize we might be able to resist this christian evangalism that threatens to remove the religous freedoms the first settlers where looking for in the begining.

I would argue that atheism is more "valid."
possibly but if you really don't belive then why the hell do you need a group for it becasue uh well um isn't gonna cut it what i think the reason is God made human kind to havea single defining group in which it was comfortable large and right which is helpful to it's members in you're case it is being encouraged in what you belive in, for me it's the hope love and embrasse i get, yes i am probbaly diging up dry bones to do this but my point is at least some what valid

The reason God invented punctuation was so that we can understand each other. I don't know what you were trying to communicate for the most part, but I think the idea is why do atheists feel the need to band together if we really don't believe in your magic monsters?

Well, I don't think we do. It's people like you who feel the need to group everyone, and because we agree with each other you lump us into some kind of religious grouping, probably because it's easier on your limited worldview. But I have never been to a congregation of atheists or anything - I don't know what your conception of being an atheist is, but it's not like we have a pope and a newsletter.
First, Sad-sad is right, athiests don't group together-thats the whole point. Athiest is the "don't play" option. (though there is a newsletter, a magazine with a small circulation. Mostly on how nuts evangelists are. For the record, thats the biggest concern, which leads me to this-)

Maybe it is time that athiests do start banding together to protect ourselves. Why?

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
And because that phrase, added to the pledge during the hieght of the cold war to seperate ourselves from 'godless communism' was upheld on a technicality in the supreme court. Right now across the country Moral Majority members are going from county to county organizing church members to run for school board positions so they can make decisions like teaching creationism in favor of evolution and adding religous practices to school. The atheists do not organize, don't meet on Sundays and are not equiped to fight this grassroots movement. If we did organize we might be able to resist this christian evangalism that threatens to remove the religous freedoms the first settlers where looking for in the begining, including the freedom to not have a religion.

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.


Urg, when did he say this new idiocy?

read the thread

I did. You haven't offered anything new.
I'll paraphrase a philosophy antedote.

What god?

there, proved as best as possible.

Honestly, if you believe we're all being watched by an invisible entity and his zombie son the burdon of proof is on you. If someone remains an atheists they remain unconvinced. It is up to you to convince them your fantasy is true, not them to convince you it is not. There is no model other than christians hope to turn around their indefensable position that puts the burdon on the reciever rather than the claimant. Sorry Bob*, you want to believe then it's on you to prove it, not me to prove you wrong, unless you want to be shafted into believing I have a giant invisible bunny named Harvey following me around just 'cause I say I do.

*It's a phrase, not an implication that you or anyone else is named bob or even a male.

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.


Urg, when did he say this new idiocy?
Its actually old idiocy from pops, during the 88 campaign. Compared to his son, HW was a middle of the road kinda christian, so it makes me all the more nervous. I ran across it doing some mild research when a friend approached me about the need for atheist advocacy.

read the thread

I did. You haven't offered anything new.
I'll paraphrase a philosophy antedote.

What god?

there, proved as best as possible.

Honestly, if you believe we're all being watched by an invisible entity and his zombie son the burdon of proof is on you. If someone remains an atheists they remain unconvinced. It is up to you to convince them your fantasy is true, not them to convince you it is not. There is no model other than christians hope to turn around their indefensable position that puts the burdon on the reciever rather than the claimant. Sorry Bob*, you want to believe then it's on you to prove it, not me to prove you wrong, unless you want to be shafted into believing I have a giant invisible bunny named Harvey following me around just 'cause I say I do.

*It's a phrase, not an implication that you or anyone else is named bob or even a male.

Well, I have never claimed belief in a personified divinity. I have claimed to believe that people personify potential divinity because it makes it easier to understand, even though by it's very definition, any existant divinity can not be uniquely qualified through personification.

The problem is, like you said, what God.

This thread started as a general rant on theisim with no definitions set and no new arguments being brought forth. I rejected that, the outright statement as fact of the non-existance of something that can neither be proven or disproven, at least outside of one's own sphere of "acceptable proof".

It's not my job to "convince" anyone of anything. Sprituality is a highly personal journey. Some find it leads to believe others find that it doesn't and both of those are valid conclusions. Every person, though, has the fundamental right to make that journey on their own, without prejudice from those who are at different places along the path. I have no problem with athiesim or athiests. Their conclusions do not necessarily invalidate my own. I do have a problem with people who are find it upsetting that others may be at different places in their lives and have no respect or empathy for their conclusions, be they athiest or theist. Forcing a spiritual outlook on someone, be it athiesim or theisim, is wrong in a very fundamental way and disregarding someone's spiritual conclusions simply because they differ from yours is a sin, not against any potential God, but against humanity's basic and fundamental curiosity.

To say you think "God is a load of hooey" is fine. To then say others must agree with you or they are somehow lesser is not and shows the exact sort of closed-minded intollerance that is traditionally attributed to, and is the downfall of, fundamentalist Christians. People, by the very virtue of their being alive on the planet at this time, have a right to make their own choices about whatever spirituality they perceive free from prejudice and intollerance. Otherwise, we have established something no better than a totalitarian theocracy just as intent on destroying the freedom and liberties of man as any fundamentalist movement.

The only difference is that it is rare for the atheist to start the fight. Even the author of this thread started it out of response to christians using thier 'faith' as an argument against homosexuality. As has been stated, there is no central atheist authority or agenda other than not buying in.

But the frustration comes from this:
can neither be proven or disproven, at least outside of one's own sphere of "acceptable proof".
It's not up to an atheist to disprove. There is no way to shape it in that fashion (back to my friend Harvey). Lots of kids believe in Santa, maybe he does exist and just hates most of us.....

Evangelists bring the fight to the atheists and then recoil with the 'why are you fighting back' when there is a retort. The friend I had mentioned that expressed the need for atheist advocacy compared telling people that he was an atheist to 'coming out of the closet...' and I think it's apt. I should be just as free not to worship as other are to worship and the truth of the matter is that is not the case. Until it is, theres gonna be a struggle.

My take:

God creates Man

Man destroys God

Man rebuilds God as a giant robot to do his bidding.

Robot God wipes out all life on Earth.

And it was Good.

The only difference is that it is rare for the atheist to start the fight.

Not on these boards it's not. To be fair, though, you are correct that a lot of these types of spats do start when a theist assumes that their beliefs must apply to all people.


Even the author of this thread started it out of response to christians using thier 'faith' as an argument against homosexuality. As has been stated, there is no central atheist authority or agenda other than not buying in.

Which is all good and well, but the initial statement in this thread was simply baiting. Not a stance against incorrect interpretation of Biblical scripture to label homosexuality as bad. It began with a blanket statement regarding God and attacking theists. While I admit that many Christians and theists in general use their faith as justification to condone bigotry and senseless prejudice, many athiests make similar assumptions about theists. How do two wrongs make a right? If the argument is against theisim being used as a criteria for judging the merits of homosexuality, then that is the argument in total, not the blanket generalization that started this thread.


But the frustration comes from this:
can neither be proven or disproven, at least outside of one's own sphere of "acceptable proof".
It's not up to an atheist to disprove.

And it's not up to a theist to prove to others or have to justify their faith outside of themselves. Many erroniously do try to "convert", but similarly, many atheists attack theists on sight. Instead of attacking one another, why does neither side give the other respect? Perhaps not en masse, but certainly on an individual level.


There is no way to shape it in that fashion (back to my friend Harvey). Lots of kids believe in Santa, maybe he does exist and just hates most of us.....

Or maybe God always answers prayers, just sometimes the answer is, "No" (to paraphrase Christopher Durang). Who knows? I can't prove it's true and you can't prove the absence of divinity, either.


Evangelists bring the fight to the atheists and then recoil with the 'why are you fighting back' when there is a retort. The friend I had mentioned that expressed the need for atheist advocacy compared telling people that he was an atheist to 'coming out of the closet...' and I think it's apt. I should be just as free not to worship as other are to worship and the truth of the matter is that is not the case. Until it is, theres gonna be a struggle.

I absolutely agree with you. Like I said, a spiritual journey is a highly personal thing. Yours has led you to athiesim and that's just as valid as mine which has led me to theisim and we both have an inherant right to take that journey and come to our own conclusions without the prejudice or interference of others except when we ask for it. But that goes for both sides. If you're going to lambaste fundamentalists (and rightly) for persecuting your choice of atheisim, then you can not make blanket judgements against the whole of theisim based on those fundamentalists. If you do then you are promoting that struggle that you talk about and not working for a solution or a synergy.

My take:

God creates Man

Man destroys God

Man rebuilds God as a giant robot to do his bidding.

Robot God wipes out all life on Earth.

And it was Good.

Ardora, once life starts it can never be extinguished, there will always be some bacterial microbe that survives, divides, multiplies, evolves, and conquers.

To my fellow atheist,
Do Not become the enemy. It is a slippery slope. As it once was the Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. Now the Christian Empire persecutes all that do not conform to their beliefs. We must accept that not every Christian is a hypocrite, that there are actually kind and good ones out there that cause no one harm. We must band with agnostics, neo-pagans, Buddhist, Hindu, and others to show the mongering Christians what trolls they have become. Furthermore we must show the Christians that atheists are not the sad, and bleakness images they think. Show them that we are joyful, caring, moral individuals and just as human as they are. Do not wage a war with them, or else we shall become them. Stop their hate with kindness.

My take:

God creates Man

Man destroys God

Man rebuilds God as a giant robot to do his bidding.

Robot God wipes out all life on Earth.

And it was Good.

Ardora, once life starts it can never be extinguished, there will always be some bacterial microbe that survives, divides, multiplies, evolves, and conquers.

To my fellow atheist,
Do Not become the enemy. It is a slippery slope. As it once was the Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. Now the Christian Empire persecutes all that do not conform to their beliefs. We must accept that not every Christian is a hypocrite, that there are actually kind and good ones out there that cause no one harm. We must band with agnostics, neo-pagans, Buddhist, Hindu, and others to show the mongering Christians what trolls they have become. Furthermore we must show the Christians that atheists are not the sad, and bleakness images they think. Show them that we are joyful, caring, moral individuals and just as human as they are. Do not wage a war with them, or else we shall become them. Stop their hate with kindness.

while i agree that we should not allow ourselves to be weakened by hatred toward the religious, i don't agree with your chastisement of some secular levity. we should also stop their hate with education, hope, and laughter, especially if we ever hope to build a world where people will not have to turn to the supernatural for meaning and happiness.

My take:

God creates Man

Man destroys God

Man rebuilds God as a giant robot to do his bidding.

Robot God wipes out all life on Earth.

And it was Good.

Ardora, once life starts it can never be extinguished, there will always be some bacterial microbe that survives, divides, multiplies, evolves, and conquers.

To my fellow atheist,
Do Not become the enemy. It is a slippery slope. As it once was the Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. Now the Christian Empire persecutes all that do not conform to their beliefs. We must accept that not every Christian is a hypocrite, that there are actually kind and good ones out there that cause no one harm. We must band with agnostics, neo-pagans, Buddhist, Hindu, and others to show the mongering Christians what trolls they have become. Furthermore we must show the Christians that atheists are not the sad, and bleakness images they think. Show them that we are joyful, caring, moral individuals and just as human as they are. Do not wage a war with them, or else we shall become them. Stop their hate with kindness.

while i agree that we should not allow ourselves to be weakened by hatred toward the religious, i don't agree with your chastisement of some secular levity. we should also stop their hate with education, hope, and laughter, especially if we ever hope to build a world where people will not have to turn to the supernatural for meaning and happiness.
god idiots man never ever insult my religon you are my prey you are my everliving fuel to life haterd my butt heres a bit of sense "don't debate against a idoit he will beat you down to his level and beat you with experince.", haterd with kindness sounds like christainity and when you are finished proving are ideas are right we will prove it and destroy you as you're whole ideas repeat them on it's self with a fake new christ and fake new mircales we don't have the advantage of being the under dog any more and we are still the largest religon. futher Empire is not a republic it is not run by people it is run by a person, we happend to have won people into the congress control and we happend to have a wise president who has saved all you're sorry butts we the christainrepublic if you don't rephrase this i will hunt you're sorry hide to fix you're ideals personaly.

god idiots man never ever insult my religon you are my prey you are my everliving fuel to life haterd my butt heres a bit of sense "don't debate against a idoit he will beat you down to his level and beat you with experince.", haterd with kindness sounds like christainity and when you are finished proving are ideas are right we will prove it and destroy you as you're whole ideas repeat them on it's self with a fake new christ and fake new mircales we don't have the advantage of being the under dog any more and we are still the largest religon. futher Empire is not a republic it is not run by people it is run by a person, we happend to have won people into the congress control and we happend to have a wise president who has saved all you're sorry butts we the christainrepublic if you don't rephrase this i will hunt you're sorry hide to fix you're ideals personaly.

Er, Christmas isn't for another couple of months. Don't you think you're bringing out the FRUITCAKE just a tad early?

I see a good number of arguments stating that neither side can prove that God does/doesn't exist. That is the point of faith, isn't it? Faith means trusting is something you cannot see, feel, taste, touch. It is believing in something intangible. Now, you can debate the existence of God this the sun goes down and then rises again in the east, but you won't get anywhere. I, for one, believe in God. I also believe that I am correct that he exists, and even if I am wrong I will have lived a better life for believing in Him. God, I believe, is a neccesary part of our existence. A live without God, for me would suddenly seem hollow and pointless. Maybe that is how several who post here feel the world is. I certainly feel sorry for you if you do. Anyways, I am not trying to prove one side or the other. I am simply stating my beliefs.

My take:

God creates Man

Man destroys God

Man rebuilds God as a giant robot to do his bidding.

Robot God wipes out all life on Earth.

And it was Good.

Ardora, once life starts it can never be extinguished, there will always be some bacterial microbe that survives, divides, multiplies, evolves, and conquers.

To my fellow atheist,
Do Not become the enemy. It is a slippery slope. As it once was the Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire. Now the Christian Empire persecutes all that do not conform to their beliefs. We must accept that not every Christian is a hypocrite, that there are actually kind and good ones out there that cause no one harm. We must band with agnostics, neo-pagans, Buddhist, Hindu, and others to show the mongering Christians what trolls they have become. Furthermore we must show the Christians that atheists are not the sad, and bleakness images they think. Show them that we are joyful, caring, moral individuals and just as human as they are. Do not wage a war with them, or else we shall become them. Stop their hate with kindness.

while i agree that we should not allow ourselves to be weakened by hatred toward the religious, i don't agree with your chastisement of some secular levity. we should also stop their hate with education, hope, and laughter, especially if we ever hope to build a world where people will not have to turn to the supernatural for meaning and happiness.
Mongering ah such fun as the devil coaxes me to think of the things i am wanting to do but i won't post them becasue i don't need to education welcome all who don't see that the world is full of drop outs ignorants and those who are right and those who are wrong not every one will belive if you teach them how right you are infact less will no one likes a know-it all as everyone knows second education just proves how evoultion failed to produce a perfect race if the world were all ainamals then it would just be survive and kill every one whould be a agressor if evoulotion were real how the hell did we get two cell organisms no mutaions if you don't have have any thing to make that happen it's pure fact there and futher the big bang if that worked wouldn't their be traces of it, and how did the big bang happen if thats the threoy.

Mongering ah such fun as the devil coaxes me to think of the things i am wanting to do but i won't post them becasue i don't need to education welcome all who don't see that the world is full of drop outs ignorants and those who are right and those who are wrong not every one will belive if you teach them how right you are infact less will no one likes a know-it all as everyone knows second education just proves how evoultion failed to produce a perfect race if the world were all ainamals then it would just be survive and kill every one whould be a agressor if evoulotion were real how the hell did we get two cell organisms no mutaions if you don't have have any thing to make that happen it's pure fact there and futher the big bang if that worked wouldn't their be traces of it, and how did the big bang happen if thats the threoy.

Hmm, the other day I was watching Cartoon Network and they had on Bugs Bunny. The one where he meets the red hairy monster? I love that one. Which LOONEY TOONS do you like?

God is like soiled underwear.
You dig a hole and toss it in so your wife won't find out.

God is like soiled underwear.
You dig a hole and toss it in so your wife won't find out.
i sorta miss burning at the stake now'in day's, if it weren't forbidden then i would.

Read the next post...

Just to make a few pointers of my beliefs before I go to bed tonight...

1) The Bible is fairly inconsistent, especially before the New Testament for it was spoken through generations (sometimes more than 100!) and changed quite drastically before being written down. So not everything is entirely true.

2) God can't be proven to exsist, nor to not exsist. Just like we can't prove that Dark Matter is holding the universe together and contains 99% of the known universe.

3) There is no reason to fear death no matter how you look at it, for me, I believe only in a Heaven, Hell will be reserved for Lucifer when he comes.

4) God forgives everything, so we must all go to Heaven no matter how horribly we screw up, how many/which god(s) we believe in or any other circumstances.

god idiots man never ever insult my religon you are my prey you are my everliving fuel to life haterd my butt heres a bit of sense "don't debate against a idoit he will beat you down to his level and beat you with experince.", haterd with kindness sounds like christainity and when you are finished proving are ideas are right we will prove it and destroy you as you're whole ideas repeat them on it's self with a fake new christ and fake new mircales we don't have the advantage of being the under dog any more and we are still the largest religon. futher Empire is not a republic it is not run by people it is run by a person, we happend to have won people into the congress control and we happend to have a wise president who has saved all you're sorry butts we the christainrepublic if you don't rephrase this i will hunt you're sorry hide to fix you're ideals personaly.

you and God are just perfect for each other.

I don't see why the "burden of proof" should be on anyone to prove anything.
Belief or non-belief is a personal thing. It's up to each individual to believe as he or she may and not I or anyone else should ever feel the need to "prove" anything to anyone when it comes to how we resolve our own spirituality.

To any athiests out there: the whole "burden of proof" and "onus on the theist" is condecending and arrogant. Not to mention getting old to boot. Come up with some new stuff please. Really, the majority of times I see this argument on the net it's a case of atheists talking down to anyone who isn't as if atheism and only atheism is the answer.

The truth is that even without God there are intangibles that are bigger than you or I. Love, Hope, Liberty, Happiness, Peace, Charity, all of these things are something that can't be physically seen or touched yet no one would try to argue that these things aren't real. Obviously because we see the evidence of these intangible virtues everyday. They've existed long before any of us were ever born and they'll exist long after we're dead.

Regardless of what you may think about the Bible one thing can't be argued and that is that the Bible is an excellent commentary on human nature and why it's neccesary to control our darker impulses. "Love your neighbor as yourself". If everyone practiced even just that much imagine how much a better place Planet Earth would be.

i do believe in free speech, and all though many people rely on god as faith and support. I do agree, god isnt real, and the world would be better with out his false belief. In a perfect world there would be no religion, but we cnat change peoples beliefs, false or not.

To any athiests out there: the whole "burden of proof" and "onus on the theist" is condecending and arrogant. Not to mention getting old to boot. Come up with some new stuff please. Really, the majority of times I see this argument on the net it's a case of atheists talking down to anyone who isn't as if atheism and only atheism is the answer.


first of all, people other than atheists ask for proof of assertions, especially when it comes to God. second, it's not condescending or arrogant to ask that a person making an assertion provide evidence; that's simple debate manners, and it's rude for people to whine when they are held to basic standards. somebody who claims there IS a God is under the same burden of proof as somebody who claims invisible aliens are causing their TV to send secret messages to them; if you make a claim you have to support it, or stop expecting other people to care.

religious people who are content to believe on their own, and who don't try to force others to believe, have no need to worry about proving anything to anybody; they keep their belief private, and we all can respect their right to think whatever they please. but anybody who expects belief in God to be imposed on others needs to provide proof, and this usually comes in the form of faith-based arguments or initiatives being pressed on the public.


The truth is that even without God there are intangibles that are bigger than you or I. Love, Hope, Liberty, Happiness, Peace, Charity, all of these things are something that can't be physically seen or touched yet noone would try to argue that these things aren't real.


actually, all emotions are physical, neurochemical phenomena, and actions such as charity are physical actions. they are all tangible, and can all be physically touched and modified. that's why nobody argues they aren't real.

there are abstract concepts, like "beauty" that cannot be touched, true. but those abstracts are relatives generated by the human mind, and have nothing to do with the actual existence of an objective diety. just because we find certain things beautiful, and have constructed an over-arching abstract concept to cover that characteristic, doesn't mean anything more than that human communication is lexically complex enough to require certain concepts for clarity.


Obviously because we see the evidence of these intangible virtues everyday. They've existed long before any of us were ever born and they'll exist long after we're dead.


none of those things will remain if all humans are dead; your feelings die when your brain dies, though the feelings of other people about you or your actions will live as long as they do. your actions may have repercussions that outlive you, but those repercussions will only have emotional significance so long as there are physical humans to have those emotions.


Regardless of what you may think about the Bible one thing can't be argued and that is that the Bible is an excellent commentary on human nature and why it's neccesary to control our darker impulses. "Love your neighbor as yourself". If everyone practiced even just that much imagine how much a better place Planet Earth would be.

i would say it is very easy to argue against that. i think the Bible is a twisted political manuever used to encourage submissive behavior in order to consolidate the rule of a few, and that it is more about misrepresenting human nature and morality than about accurately expressing what it means to be human. please don't tell other people what can and cannot be argued...you'll always be wrong ;).

PS: i personally believe the world would be a hideous place if everyone loved their neighbor as themself. further proof that the diversity of the human mind knows no bounds, and it is useless to suggest absolutes when dealing with human psychology.

first of all, people other than atheists ask for proof of assertions, especially when it comes to God. second, it's not condescending or arrogant to ask that a person making an assertion provide evidence; that's simple debate manners, and it's rude for people to whine when they are held to basic standards. somebody who claims there IS a God is under the same burden of proof as somebody who claims invisible aliens are causing their TV to send secret messages to them; if you make a claim you have to support it, or stop expecting other people to care.

religious people who are content to believe on their own, and who don't try to force others to believe, have no need to worry about proving anything to anybody; they keep their belief private, and we all can respect their right to think whatever they please. but anybody who expects belief in God to be imposed on others needs to provide proof, and this usually comes in the form of faith-based arguments or initiatives being pressed on the public.

Then isn't it also reasonable to expect those who detract from personal faith and spirituality and "force" their assertions on others also provide some sort of empirical proof?

first of all, people other than atheists ask for proof of assertions, especially when it comes to God. second, it's not condescending or arrogant to ask that a person making an assertion provide evidence; that's simple debate manners, and it's rude for people to whine when they are held to basic standards. somebody who claims there IS a God is under the same burden of proof as somebody who claims invisible aliens are causing their TV to send secret messages to them; if you make a claim you have to support it, or stop expecting other people to care.

religious people who are content to believe on their own, and who don't try to force others to believe, have no need to worry about proving anything to anybody; they keep their belief private, and we all can respect their right to think whatever they please. but anybody who expects belief in God to be imposed on others needs to provide proof, and this usually comes in the form of faith-based arguments or initiatives being pressed on the public.

Then isn't it also reasonable to expect those who detract from personal faith and spirituality and "force" their assertions on others also provide some sort of empirical proof?

anybody who claims there ISN'T a God is equally making an unprovable statement. however, according to the debate rules that i learned on my (admittedly nerdy) debate team, you are never obligated to prove a negative; only someone making the assertion that something does exist is bound to prove it, otherwise we would have to spend our lives proving that little green unicorns aren't secretly running the world.

personally i see atheism and theism as pretty much equally impossible, so i'm not going to try to argue in favor of the non-existence of God...perhaps somebody who holds that view will step in?

Just to make a few pointers of my beliefs before I go to bed tonight...

1) The Bible is fairly inconsistent, especially before the New Testament for it was spoken through generations (sometimes more than 100!) and changed quite drastically before being written down. So not everything is entirely true.

2) God can't be proven to exsist, nor to not exsist. Just like we can't prove that Dark Matter is holding the universe together and contains 99% of the known universe.

3) There is no reason to fear death no matter how you look at it, for me, I believe only in a Heaven, Hell will be reserved for Lucifer when he comes.

4) God forgives everything, so we must all go to Heaven no matter how horribly we screw up, how many/which god(s) we believe in or any other circumstances.


Ok first of all..its not inconsistant-I dont know why you say that. 2nd-it was not written a hundred generations later, that would be about 10,000 years later, which hasnt even passed yet. 3rd-It was actually written as early as 60 years afterwards-as noted by many.

As is said in the realing good book The Case for Christ-i suggest you all give it a read-the first biography on Alexander the Great was written within a larger time-span than the bible.

3rd-its takes just as much faith to be an athiest than a Christian-infact even more so, with all the evidence pointing to a Creator of some sorts. Atheism is a religion, and most athiests do worship a god-whether it be money or themselves.

One example of scientific reasoning for a creator is the Law of Conservation of Mass(i think thats what it is called) which states something explaining how within the laws of the universe, matter can not be created or destroyed. Which means, how did the first stuff get here-before the "big bang" there had to have been some sort of supernataral entity at work, what other explantion is there.

here are some websites to visit as well
http://www.creationevidence.org/ http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/
(^^^probally the best ones^^^)
http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/
http://www.icr.org/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
http://www.drdino.com/index.jsp

Just to make a few pointers of my beliefs before I go to bed tonight...

1) The Bible is fairly inconsistent, especially before the New Testament for it was spoken through generations (sometimes more than 100!) and changed quite drastically before being written down. So not everything is entirely true.

2) God can't be proven to exsist, nor to not exsist. Just like we can't prove that Dark Matter is holding the universe together and contains 99% of the known universe.

3) There is no reason to fear death no matter how you look at it, for me, I believe only in a Heaven, Hell will be reserved for Lucifer when he comes.

4) God forgives everything, so we must all go to Heaven no matter how horribly we screw up, how many/which god(s) we believe in or any other circumstances.


Ok first of all..its not inconsistant-I dont know why you say that. 2nd-it was not written a hundred generations later, that would be about 10,000 years later, which hasnt even passed yet. 3rd-It was actually written as early as 60 years afterwards-as noted by many.

As is said in the realing good book The Case for Christ-i suggest you all give it a read-the first biography on Alexander the Great was written within a larger time-span than the bible.

3rd-its takes just as much faith to be an athiest than a Christian-infact even more so, with all the evidence pointing to a Creator of some sorts. Atheism is a religion, and most athiests do worship a god-whether it be money or themselves.

One example of scientific reasoning for a creator is the Law of Conservation of Mass(i think thats what it is called) which states something explaining how within the laws of the universe, matter can not be created or destroyed. Which means, how did the first stuff get here-before the "big bang" there had to have been some sort of supernataral entity at work, what other explantion is there.


Actually, when some people were having kids at 10 or 13 years of age so about 1000 to 2000 years is pretty accurate. It takes a lot of strength to be any type of relgion, or even no religion. And the Big Bang, Inflationary theory, etc. is how I believe God created the universe and that is the way we understand it. For I am 100% Christian, well, Methodist. My Minister told us that the first people, be they stone-age, had the creation story, and they didn't exactly write. He said the stories were passed on, some version were "written" (in a way) a couple of generations afterwards, but they were lost or eroded for paper has yet to be invented, and more version came and came, and we chose two. At least that is what I learned.

You know what bothers me more than radical fundamentalists??...



Radical athiests.


And I'm a firm believer in God.. I have many atheist friends and we get into many discussions regarding the existance of God.. Personally, I don't find any inconsistencies with my religion, and the good thing is, it's mostly supported by science..

Terrible how the West started a fourth world war against our 'evil empire'...
:roll:

Oh, and for the record, I'm an 'islam ppl'.. I follow a bandit who attacked caravans.. woohoo.. at least history has proven not all bandits are bad.. look at Robin Hood.. :roll:
What science proves any of the Bible? The Bible says the Universe was made over 6 days, science says otherwise. The Bible says god created women out of man's rib, science says otherwise (if a women came out of a man then why two X chromos for example). The Bible says god destroyed all of civilization besides Noah and his family only a few thousand years ago, science says otherwise. The Bible says the world is a few thousand years old, science says otherwise.

Other inconsistencies: How could Cain found a city if he was damned to wander? Whats with the differences in Genesis 1 and 2? Where did Cain's wife come from? Need I really go on?

first of all, people other than atheists ask for proof of assertions, especially when it comes to God. second, it's not condescending or arrogant to ask that a person making an assertion provide evidence; that's simple debate manners, and it's rude for people to whine when they are held to basic standards. somebody who claims there IS a God is under the same burden of proof as somebody who claims invisible aliens are causing their TV to send secret messages to them; if you make a claim you have to support it, or stop expecting other people to care.

religious people who are content to believe on their own, and who don't try to force others to believe, have no need to worry about proving anything to anybody; they keep their belief private, and we all can respect their right to think whatever they please. but anybody who expects belief in God to be imposed on others needs to provide proof, and this usually comes in the form of faith-based arguments or initiatives being pressed on the public.

Then isn't it also reasonable to expect those who detract from personal faith and spirituality and "force" their assertions on others also provide some sort of empirical proof?

anybody who claims there ISN'T a God is equally making an unprovable statement. however, according to the debate rules that i learned on my (admittedly nerdy) debate team, you are never obligated to prove a negative; only someone making the assertion that something does exist is bound to prove it, otherwise we would have to spend our lives proving that little green unicorns aren't secretly running the world.

personally i see atheism and theism as pretty much equally impossible, so i'm not going to try to argue in favor of the non-existence of God...perhaps somebody who holds that view will step in?
Your asserting God exists, your not asserting that we cannot prove he doesn't. Boom.

Finally, a couple of other comments that I would like to put forward.

The Bible clearly states "If a man lies with another man, let them both be stoned to death". Explain then how God isn't ordering you to kill homosexuals?

The New Testament was written around 60 years after it was spoken, the Old Testament wasn't written until thousands of years after the events it talked about were supposed to have taken place.

Just because we don't understand how the universe came into being doesn't mean it was "created". In fact, we have no idea how time operated at all. For all we know there is no such thing as the future, the past, beginning or end. Because if you get into creation then you start having to ask WHERE DID GOD COME FROM?

I won't even get into where angels come from, how they have Gods powers, etc.

This is where I am: I find it hard to believe in God yet I find it hard to believe that all life is purely an accident. Meaning that I find it hard to believe in the absence of God. Is there a third choice?

Sometimes I wonder about the reality of reality. Maybe it's all a mad joke on us. Or maybe it's just me.

Atheism is the belief of the physical. No God, no afterlife, no human soul. Fair enough, it may even be true. Yet there are some evidences that we may continue on after death in some form.

Think about about the sheer numbers of hauntings and ghost sightings. Even if the overwhelming majority of them were hoaxes or reports by crackpots that would still leave many such reportings by reliable witnesses that would have to be taken seriously.

The existence of a person's ghost would be either a supernatural event or at least something well beyond ability of our current science to explain. The existence of anything supernatural is pretty much contrary to atheistic doctrine as I understand it.

Who knows, perhaps one day science will discover that we do have some sort of soul or ghost.

Yet there are some evidences that we may continue on after death in some form.

Think about about the sheer numbers of hauntings and ghost sightings. Even if the overwhelming majority of them were hoaxes or reports by crackpots that would still leave many such reportings by reliable witnesses that would have to be taken seriously.
Such as?

That's just in your psyche. There's no way ghosts are real, they simply don't exist if you believe in a rational world wherein everything can be explained.

Death is a dreamless sleep... that's all. A permanent coma. Like when someone's heart stops beating but a few minutes later they are alive again... they were just in a coma, but they were dead. That if anything proves that death is the complete absense of being. Any form of being.

Anyway, I don't believe in god. I certainly don't believe in a god who must be worshipped, which is self-defeating...

Yet there are some evidences that we may continue on after death in some form.

Think about about the sheer numbers of hauntings and ghost sightings. Even if the overwhelming majority of them were hoaxes or reports by crackpots that would still leave many such reportings by reliable witnesses that would have to be taken seriously.


no matter how many people believe the Earth is flat, it won't be true. just because there are a lot of people claiming to see ghosts doesn't mean that any percentage of them is necessarily right, especially since every single case of documented investigation has turned up no evidence of any supernatural forces.

How so? There has been several documentaries where the camera caught images of people or things that couldn't have possibly been there yet were. As well as recordings of sounds couldn't be explained. Something that couldn't readily be explained was there. Just because something doesn't neatly fit into your worldview doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Every single case? That's a pretty big claim that I think you can't back up. I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to say you're wrong.

And I don't particularly believe in a rational world where everything can be explained. In fact I believe strongly that there are many things that we can't explain. At least not yet.

It sounds to me like you ignore anything that runs counter to your vision of a"rational world". That's a lot like someone who believes in God ignoring evidence that would support the argument that God doesn't exist. Intentional ignorance can run in more than one direction.

Yet there are some evidences that we may continue on after death in some form.

Think about about the sheer numbers of hauntings and ghost sightings. Even if the overwhelming majority of them were hoaxes or reports by crackpots that would still leave many such reportings by reliable witnesses that would have to be taken seriously.


no matter how many people believe the Earth is flat, it won't be true. just because there are a lot of people claiming to see ghosts doesn't mean that any percentage of them is necessarily right, especially since every single case of documented investigation has turned up no evidence of any supernatural forces.


besides alot of ghosts are really genii loci, or spirits of a specific place. they were never actually living people, though some of them claim to have been.

god idiots man never ever insult my religon you are my prey you are my everliving fuel to life haterd my butt heres a bit of sense "don't debate against a idoit he will beat you down to his level and beat you with experince.", haterd with kindness sounds like christainity and when you are finished proving are ideas are right we will prove it and destroy you as you're whole ideas repeat them on it's self with a fake new christ and fake new mircales we don't have the advantage of being the under dog any more and we are still the largest religon. futher Empire is not a republic it is not run by people it is run by a person, we happend to have won people into the congress control and we happend to have a wise president who has saved all you're sorry butts we the christainrepublic if you don't rephrase this i will hunt you're sorry hide to fix you're ideals personaly.

Actually, in case anyone was wondering, it's this incoherent moron that inspired me to "bait" this thread. It was in response to the jesopods' use of their jehova to persecute homosexuals, coupled with this guy's threats - "don't insult my religion, you are my prey, etc." Yeah I didn't do it in a terribly reasonable fashion, but IMO that's no way to start a thread. The meat comes later, and I think I've more than made up for it.

I see a good number of arguments stating that neither side can prove that God does/doesn't exist. That is the point of faith, isn't it? Faith means trusting is something you cannot see, feel, taste, touch.

Okay, fair enough. But think of the consequences of that statement. That means that you're willing to believe, or have faith in, something you have no sound foundation to believe in. When you say, "that is the point of faith," you acknowledge that without faith, religion dies - therefore I would put forth that religion can only thrive upon requiring its customers to succumb to fallacy and exercise blindness.

A live without God, for me would suddenly seem hollow and pointless. Maybe that is how several who post here feel the world is. I certainly feel sorry for you if you do. Anyways, I am not trying to prove one side or the other. I am simply stating my beliefs.

Does that mean that you need a god to justify the existence of the world? I think that really is rather belittling to the world. After all the world is here - don't you think it deserves some respect? I personally think the world is a pretty neat thing in itself, not pointless and hollow. For me, that's enough justification - death is overemphasised as an issue; to be successful as an atheist, you have to acknowledge death, not make up fairy tales to get around it.

This thread is, like the poster's name: sad, sad, (sad...)

but everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Less so when they attempt to impose their opinions on others. Much like thesists as well. Radicals on both sides piss me off.

Anyways, IMHO (note that little addition right there) there is a God.

Einstien believed it. He also believed in the big bang and (?) evolution. Me and Einstein share these opinions.

I am not one who believes that life is meaningless without God. If by some off-chance, God was disproved (god forbid! eeksdee! pun???), I would live on my life exactly the same way. Except with less guilt as I do evil things on my fellow man.

And yes. I DO believe in something in which I have no proof of. Same as you. You cannot prove or disprove God until you are dead. Which is why I keep an open-mind but continue to have faith in a God.

Have I acknowledged death? Yes. I am 13 and am willing to accept death as it comes. Hopefully it won't come anytime soon, I still haven't gotten laid yet. But when it comes, I'll be ready. And I'll be ready to suck up the results of my death. Heaven, hell, something else, or nothing at all.

Do I make up fairytales to get around death? Pfft...hell no...

This thread is, like the poster's name: sad, sad, (sad...)

but everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Less so when they attempt to impose their opinions on others. Much like thesists as well. Radicals on both sides piss me off.

Anyways, IMHO (note that little addition right there) there is a God.

Einstien believed it. He also believed in the big bang and (?) evolution. Me and Einstein share these opinions.

I am not one who believes that life is meaningless without God. If by some off-chance, God was disproved (god forbid! eeksdee! pun???), I would live on my life exactly the same way. Except with less guilt as I do evil things on my fellow man.

And yes. I DO believe in something in which I have no proof of. Same as you. You cannot prove or disprove God until you are dead. Which is why I keep an open-mind but continue to have faith in a God.

Have I acknowledged death? Yes. I am 13 and am willing to accept death as it comes. Hopefully it won't come anytime soon, I still haven't gotten laid yet. But when it comes, I'll be ready. And I'll be ready to suck up the results of my death. Heaven, hell, something else, or nothing at all.

Do I make up fairytales to get around death? Pfft...hell no...
:roll:

Plz TAR! You don't even believe in me having a goatee already!

This thread is, like the poster's name: sad, sad, (sad...)

but everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Less so when they attempt to impose their opinions on others. Much like thesists as well. Radicals on both sides piss me off.

Anyways, IMHO (note that little addition right there) there is a God.

Einstien believed it. He also believed in the big bang and (?) evolution. Me and Einstein share these opinions.

I am not one who believes that life is meaningless without God. If by some off-chance, God was disproved (god forbid! eeksdee! pun???), I would live on my life exactly the same way. Except with less guilt as I do evil things on my fellow man.

And yes. I DO believe in something in which I have no proof of. Same as you. You cannot prove or disprove God until you are dead. Which is why I keep an open-mind but continue to have faith in a God.

Have I acknowledged death? Yes. I am 13 and am willing to accept death as it comes. Hopefully it won't come anytime soon, I still haven't gotten laid yet. But when it comes, I'll be ready. And I'll be ready to suck up the results of my death. Heaven, hell, something else, or nothing at all.

Do I make up fairytales to get around death? Pfft...hell no...
:roll:

he's right though, me and dad, real as cheese :P

Most people who like God do so only because parents and society tell them to. Why do I like God? Probably to use him as a crutch, you would think. But I spent the last 16 years of my life as an atheist, then all of a sudden God found me. While I still have my frequent doubts of his very existance, I tend to feel His grace in me at least every few days. During the times when I do not feel him as distinctly are when I begin to doubt, but they do not last.
So many of the Christians you run into have been trained to love God for all the wrong reasons, and therefore come towards the generally sensible people who are atheists with stupidity, making Christianity seem even more insane. I ask you only to look beyond the advocates of Christianity (misguided and incoherent fools) and look toward the Bible, towards God himself.

I would like to hear more about how you came to convert to atheism, and then how you came to convert to christianity.

I was born a Catholic, raised Catholic going to church with my mother, all the while (even as a very small child) viewing Catholicism--and God, in my ignorance--as a fairy tale-like crutch for the people around me. Where I am now, I still believe Catholicism to be a very wrong religion, however I recognize that it does not mean that God is wrong too. For multiple years I thought I was very intelligent by realizing the fallacy in God many years before most, seeing through the many idiosyncracies of religious beliefs and relying heavily on logic and scientific fact to prove it's impossibility. Even now, at a time where I have a fairly strong faith in God, I neither regret, nor discard the term of my life in which I was an atheist.
I am 16 and at the top of my class halfway through my high school career (in a school of about 2500). I am generally acknowledged to be one of the most understanding, objective, and levelheaded people...ever. Now that I've established my credibility, if that matters, let's move on to how I became a Christian. I'll give you the honest truth here, which is hard for me; my sister committed suicide in January, at this time I still did not believe in God. The death of my sister, who was preparing to graduate high school with high honors and go on to college, was crippling to my parents, destroying both of their faith's in God and inspiring in them tremendous hatred for Him. At about this time, I began questioning if He might really exist or not, then immediately disregarding Him again. About a month later I began dating a very Christian girl, attending church with her and having her lecture me about God, correcting many of the misinterpretations of God and God's will which I had received from other people, school, TV, and Catholic Church. We broke up after only a month, but I continued to go to church, two youth groups, and three bible study sessions each week. This should tell you that I began following God for myself, it was not something I did just because my girlfriend did too. At this point, my life is as I last stated, God is a central pier to my life right now and it is the best time my life has ever seen. This is not to say that circumstances around me are the best ever, nor does it mean that God will always provide happy times (He never promised anything of the sort), only that I feel His grace inside of me, which is amazing.
I'm done now, comment as you like, but please avoid illiteracy, ignorance, and stupidity in your posts.
Thank you.

This thread is, like the poster's name: sad, sad, (sad...)

but everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Less so when they attempt to impose their opinions on others. Much like thesists as well. Radicals on both sides piss me off.

Anyways, IMHO (note that little addition right there) there is a God.

Einstien believed it. He also believed in the big bang and (?) evolution. Me and Einstein share these opinions.

I am not one who believes that life is meaningless without God. If by some off-chance, God was disproved (god forbid! eeksdee! pun???), I would live on my life exactly the same way. Except with less guilt as I do evil things on my fellow man.

And yes. I DO believe in something in which I have no proof of. Same as you. You cannot prove or disprove God until you are dead. Which is why I keep an open-mind but continue to have faith in a God.

Have I acknowledged death? Yes. I am 13 and am willing to accept death as it comes. Hopefully it won't come anytime soon, I still haven't gotten laid yet. But when it comes, I'll be ready. And I'll be ready to suck up the results of my death. Heaven, hell, something else, or nothing at all.

Do I make up fairytales to get around death? Pfft...hell no...

Hell, I'm religious.. and I believe in the Big Bang and Evolution.. I'm also willing to accept death.. That's all part of religion.. (or my religion at least)..

What science proves any of the Bible? The Bible says the Universe was made over 6 days, science says otherwise. The Bible says god created women out of man's rib, science says otherwise (if a women came out of a man then why two X chromos for example). The Bible says god destroyed all of civilization besides Noah and his family only a few thousand years ago, science says otherwise. The Bible says the world is a few thousand years old, science says otherwise.

Other inconsistencies: How could Cain found a city if he was damned to wander? Whats with the differences in Genesis 1 and 2? Where did Cain's wife come from? Need I really go on?


Shows how well you can read.. :roll:

I suggest you visit English 101, or at least read my WHOLE post again..

This is a pretty heated thread! Apparently, there ARE still folk who care about the existence or non-existence of God.
I'm glad that my side (theists) don't just have people like Dark Fututre speaking for us (who I'm not sure I understand even vaguely, but I don't like the gist that I'm picking up!), but also people like Inanis Land, who I think puts our position thoughtfully and tastefully.

Do the atheists out there have anything that they consider proof of the hypothesis that the supernatural does not exist, that there is matter and energy, time and space and forces, and that's it? Bear in mind that I don't believe it's possible to examine spiritual events or beings directly with modern technology. To use an example I have used previously, if you try to measure light intensity with a microphone, you will record that nothing is there; you will ALWAYS record that nothing is there, because you are using the wrong instrument. Materialism has been a trend in Western society for a couple of hundred years, but we've had plenty of other bad trends (slavery) that have been corrected (and yes, I KNOW Christianity was used to justify slavery).

Also, does anyone actually hold the position that the existence of God is determined by a person's belief in Him; that God really does exist in a Christian's universe, but not in an atheist's? Could anyone who actually holds this (IMHO ludicrous) opinion please explain how it works? How two people inhabiting fundamentally different universes can meet and have a conversation? This whole "That may be true for you, but it's not true for me" line really winds me up! Relativism, another trend in our society that I hope will soon bite the dust.

Ultimately, I believe only God can convince people to follow Him, so any attempts at converting others that I make are simply presenting my opinions (which I hope are often God's opinions, i.e. facts) and letting God and that person deal with the rest.

May we all find the truth!

This reminds me of the Mikhail Bakunin quote: If God existed, it would be necessary to abolish him. Bakunin was a famous anarchist thinker.

-----------------------------------------
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Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

while i agree that we should not allow ourselves to be weakened by hatred toward the religious, i don't agree with your chastisement of some secular levity. we should also stop their hate with education, hope, and laughter, especially if we ever hope to build a world where people will not have to turn to the supernatural for meaning and happiness.

Bottle you are right on both counts. I was a bit chastising; it is just hard to shake those bad vibes sometimes. I also agree with you that education, hope, and laughter should be used to stop the hate.

I do not belive in God because there is no logical reason to. If you were raised not knowing god how would you know he was there? You wouldnt. god isnt there, there is no reason to think he is. ( all MO) My theory:

Early people had many things they could not explain, so to say that there is a higher power was the only explenation. This happened in similar but different fasions across the globe, thus so many different religions. Some were made to attempt to explain things and i think others were made as a method of control of the population. Kings and rulers can always be over thrown, but if you can convince the people that there is an omnipotent being that you have to answer to, the population is going to be much more likly to do what you want.

This is just my opinion on why we have religion. I dont think religion is a bad thing at all. I do not beleive much of it is true, but in small instances it can make people in to better people. Unfortunaly on a global perspective it creates a negative effect because of the dependancy people have put on thier beliefs. I dont know. There is no way to end it or make it universal, so i dont care to try. Have fun.

we had the threoy of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinte force and an infinte mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. making him a omni persent and potent force.

we had the threoy of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinte force and an infinte mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. making him a omni persent and potent force.

I'll just post this little tid-bit...

It is impossible to prove or disprove God. So there is no point trying to, each side can come up with equally compelling evidence. And everyone has a different level they consider themselves to be.

My, and I'm sure, many other peoples opinions.

well i will be ignoring you now becasue that is an argument i don't feel is topable.

well i will be ignoring you now becasue that is an argument i don't feel is topable.

Hmmm? I don't quite understand what you mean.

And because I am going to bed and won't be here to see if you ever reply...

That "arguement" isn't an arguement, it is just a piece of opinion and fact. I am a Christian (Methodist), and I truly belive in God, but you can't force views on others without getting into a fight. I agree, I can prove God exsists, but others just won't see it the way I see it, so you Can't prove God does or doesn't exsist.

God exists, He's just in different forms to everyone.

God exists, He's just in different forms to everyone.

Exactly! To me he is just there, I don't question it. But I believe that everything we've found in science is how we got here and that is why I can say that, but someone can just shoot me down easily. Which is why I wanted to point out, like my post above, God can be proven to exsist, but not to exsist also. Thanks for surviving me everyone with my views! 8)

we had the threoy of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinte force and an infinte mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. making him a omni persent and potent force.


Wow. This is my new email signature.

GENIUS!!

1. Picking a religion to believe in is a big decision, it sucks up alot of time and resources (and soul or whatever), so i think i'd want to get it right. I don't think it's too much to ask for proof of your god's or Wotan's or whatever's existence instead of me proving it doesn't.

2. We're seeing that when people get zapped in the temporal lobe of the brain, they have 'intensely religious experiences' (google 'V. S. Ramachandran'). The temporal lobe is kindof the understanding part and a link to the emotional centers of the brain, so I'd also like proof that God exists and isn't just some manifestation of people's natural desire to see connections and purpose in the world.

3. To Colodia: Einstein didn't believe in the Big Bang, he put the 'cosmological constant' into his equations because he believed in a static universe. Later he was proved wrong and said it was his greatest mistake (unrelated, but Einstein-worship is a peeve of mine).

well hell...I was just saying random things that I heard here on NS

One example of scientific reasoning for a creator is the Law of Conservation of Mass(i think thats what it is called) which states something explaining how within the laws of the universe, matter can not be created or destroyed. Which means, how did the first stuff get here-before the "big bang" there had to have been some sort of supernataral entity at work, what other explantion is there.


Conservation of Matter and Energy. Matter can be transformed in energy and viceversa, but the sum total of both always remains the same in a closed system. Supposing the Universe is a closed system, how did it all get here?

The most popular theory is the Big Bang, that says that all matter and energy were concentrated in a single point of infinite density and zero dimensions. There was no time before that so we can say that singularity had "always" been there or that there was nothing "before" that.

It's not known how or why this singularity blew up eventually creating the Universe, but there is no evidence of a supernatural being behind it. It simply means that our observation capabilities don't reach that far and that we have a long way to go in our knowledge of mathematics and physics before we can explain it.

To say that if science can't explain it then the only explanation is divine internvention is ludicrous and certainly not scientific.

we had the threoy of faster than light speed travel before anyone had been born only created this comes from god he is a infinte force and an infinte mass which makes him omnipresent by making him go fast then light speeding toward and from every point in time every moment. making him a omni persent and potent force.


Wow. This is my new email signature.

GENIUS!!
WOW was that a compliment, If it was then thanks, i will take it very seriously. No Joke 8)

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

I guess you're quite sad because you don't have God in your life, Sad-Sad.

To say that if science can't explain it then the only explanation is divine internvention is ludicrous and certainly not scientific.

While I'll concede, on principle, that it could just be that we can't observe things that well...with the hypothesis of a closed Universe as outlined, there is nothing further that we could see, and thus the question still stands.

It goes beyond that, though. What if the Universe is a more open system? Perhaps even an oscillating Universe, where one Universe expands, then "crunches", and then explodes out into the next Universe after it. Even then...oscillations have a beginning.

No system can begin at time = -infinity, just as no system can perpetuate ad infinitum.

What's even better is that current data suggests that our Universe will expand and burn out, not "crunch"...so if there is an oscillating Universe, that oscillation has ended. That means that the oscillating system has a finite "energy", much as with any spring.

And, as with any spring, the oscillations don't start "unassisted".

And if it is a closed Universe, a one-time thinger...then we are right to ask what started it. Realistically, there is no measurement tool that we could devise that could see to what might be called "prior" the start of the Universe, whatever it was.



Is it absurd, when science fails, to turn to something besides science? Of course not. If the best science can devise cannot explain why we are here, then perhaps we should stop relying on science to tell us why. It's a human-made study, after all...and as with all things human it has its definite limits.

God has my vote. And the person who started this thread is aptly named.

;) Aiera

Does anyone ELSE tire of noobs posting drivel like this? I can't think of what I can't stand about it more? There's so much to choose from:
(1) it is ignorant
(2) it is not really a good opening to a debate, just a statement
(3) the aforementioned statement is treated as fact without substantiating proof
(4) it is, or seems to be, meant as insult
...
...
...

*sigh*
:? Aiera

Does anyone ELSE tire of noobs posting drivel like this? I can't think of what I can't stand about it more? There's so much to choose from:
(1) it is ignorant
(2) it is not really a good opening to a debate, just a statement
(3) the aforementioned statement is treated as fact without substantiating proof
(4) it is, or seems to be, meant as insult
...
...
...

*sigh*
:? Aiera


I will agree to the last three - I did those things intentionally in order to spark debate; I also did it in response to the use of your deities to disparage homosexuals in another thread. Anyway, if you had read the thread I think you'll see I acted more substantially :roll:. As for my name, that is the name of my nation in the game, but you should know that.

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

I guess you're quite sad because you don't have God in your life, Sad-Sad.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

It's true!!! Somebody hold me.
:roll:

God is allmighty and he created all says the bible.
God can destroy all evil at the blink of an eye, but he doesn't....
God created evil, because evil is part of all.....
God created man, and knew what would happen (he is after all allmighty)

You could conclude god is a sadist.....What is the meaning of life?
(No not 42, that would be predictable)
We are here for gods amusement, God is playing a giant omnipotent game of Simearth, and yes, he SUCKS at that game.

I will agree to the last three - I did those things intentionally in order to spark debate; I also did it in response to the use of your deities to disparage homosexuals in another thread.


Now, now, don't let the ignoramuses among us get you down. ;) If you want, look up some posts by me on the subject, or by Labrador. There's a lot of immature people in this forum...Christian, atheist, communist, fascist, racist, whatever.


Anyway, if you had read the thread I think you'll see I acted more substantially :roll:. As for my name, that is the name of my nation in the game, but you should know that.

Mmmm...I did. I usually try and jump in at the end, but if there's nothing good to work with then I'll skip back to the beginning. ;) And I know why the name is there...it was just apt, given the topic.

I mean, now who is better? You, or the people you claim to have been acting in response to...now that you've stooped to using their tactics, even if only to start a thread?

:? Aiera

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

I guess you're quite sad because you don't have God in your life, Sad-Sad.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

It's true!!! Somebody hold me.
:roll:

*hugs Sad-Sad* Don't cry. Maybe now is the time to look for God, or rather, let God reach you. :)

Alright guys. Give it up, quit whining. God is a load of hooey and you all know it. Can we just get on with it from here?

I guess you're quite sad because you don't have God in your life, Sad-Sad.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

It's true!!! Somebody hold me.
:roll:

*hugs Sad-Sad* Don't cry. Maybe now is the time to look for God, or rather, let God reach you. :)
that'll teach 'im!

that'll teach 'im!teach him what?

What is the meaning of life?
(No not 42, that would be predictable)
We are here for gods amusement, God is playing a giant omnipotent game of Simearth, and yes, he SUCKS at that game.

Name me one person who DOESN'T suck at SimEarth. It's a ridiculous game. Why did Maxis ever make that garbage?

:x Aiera